Harry's Place

Firstly, Hamas ended the ‘ceasefire’. (Similar to one in northern Ireland which was re-named ‘Peacefire’ following numerous breaches.)

I believe Hamas is the agent of Iran and does nothing without consultation. I also believe Hamas (Iran) knows what they are doing. Interestingly the BBC’s view that the current Israeli action is timed to act before a new president is appointed in the USA does not work the other way around, that is, a warning from Iran to the new president of Israel’s chief backer.

An unforgettable image for me of the recent Lebanon War was of a young child lying as if asleep but dead following a blast, from what cause I do not know. It was on the front page of The Guardian so I suppose it was by way of criticism of Israel, but again I do not cite this as fact. I mourn that little girl. But Iknow who was responsible ultimately for her death.

Did any one watch Channel Four’s Alternative Christmas Meassge?

Turkey’s prime minister on Sunday denounced Israel’s air assault on Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip as a “crime against humanity”

This is the ‘moderate, westernised Turkey’ we are supposed to accept into the EU, right?

Across the Arab and Islamic worlds, there has been a predictable wave of protest

I knoooooow, I know! That’s what I thought, how predictable!

against Israel’s continuing operation to defend the western Negev from the rocket and mortar attacks of Hamas.

And the killing of over 200 people.

Larkers,
The Sunday Times shows a wounded child, below the headline about Israel’s ‘revenge attack’. The intention is clear: let’s call it ‘criticism’. I call it deranged Jew-hatred.

And the killing of over 200 people

Sure, without any provocation.
They are Joos, that’s what they do.

Greg Mitchell, editor of Editor & Publisher and — of all things — Daily Kos blogger, spins for Hamas.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/28/102620/99/501/677840

“And the killing of over 200 people”

How many of those 200 would have no problem beheading you for being an infidel?

Hear, hear!

Demonstrators took to the streets in Rabat, Beirut and Damascus.

Don’t forget Cairo. There will be a protest organised by the MB ’spiritual leader’ Magdi Akef outside the Union of Journalists building tomorrow and there was a massive demonstration involving (according to al-Dostor) 20,000+ Egyptians in Downtown Cairo today.

Judging by the wealth of condemnation in the Arab World’s media, leaders such as Mubarak and Bouteflika who are seen as supportive of Israel’s policy against Hamas are in for a rough time.

It’s interesting to note MB reaction to the Israeli attacks: minimal coverage of the continued rocket attacks by Hamas militants and the end of the ‘truce’, they’ve escalated their coverage over the last week or so in response to some hard-hitting articles and public statements by critics of their ‘middle way’ policies. This demonstration gives them the opportunity to be seen as radical again by the Egyptian public without succumbing to violence.

Has GB made any statements yet? Perhaps he’s not allowed to in case someone within the EU Council ‘breaks’ the pan-European ‘consensus. Europe as one…what a joke.

They are Joos, that’s what they do.

Is that your honest opinion?

How many of those 200 would have no problem beheading you for being an infidel?

I’ve no idea. Care to make a guess? Because they were killed for being Palestinian which presumably is not equivalent to being killed for being an infidel (which you assume I am).

Because they were killed for being Palestinian

A lie.

A lie.

Yeah, you’re probably right. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They were killed because even smart bombs can’t differentiate between dem evil Hamas supporters and other Palestinians.

Greg Mitchell’s post seemed to be pointing out that not all Israelis support this kind of military action – does mean these Israelis are spinning for Hamas as well?

Can someone please explain how this is going to help Israel’s long-term security, or even just how it’s going to undermine Hamas rather than increase its popular support?

The Israeli elections aren’t too far away are they

It’s still not clear to me why Israel didn’t just ask Hamas nicely to stop launching missiles indiscriminately at their communities.

“Can someone please explain how this is going to help Israel’s long-term security”

If Israel does this every time missiles reign in from Gaza, I think the quassam option will lose some of its general appeal.

According to Lipni (what a doll!) Isral warned Palestinians near to the Hamas facilities. I saw on a messageboard that they sent text messages.

Everything about Israel’s action is outstanding. 60 planes, 50 targets and in 5 minutes Hamas security compounds were destroyed. Today they are destroying bomb factories and tunnels.

Israel has a Free Lunch on this. UK & USA, Egypt and Fatah all recognise this had to be done and now srael will do it too a finish.

This will be one of those historic days in Israel history that made changes that changed the World, and certainly the Middle east.

I think I saw mention on a news rolling sticker that Milliband has called for a complete halt. Lighweight irrelevant crap like him should be ignored.

This is the ‘moderate, westernised Turkey’ we are supposed to accept into the EU, right?

Yep. It’s also the one the FPC endorses. Witness Miliband’s staggeringly naive contribution:

The prospect of EU membership has helped galvanise the reformers in Turkish politics. The decade from 1995 to 2005 – which some call Turkey’s ‘golden age’ of reform (no just you and other short-sighted mandarins David) – saw improvements in human rights, civil liberties, governance, religious tolerance and increasing economic liberalisation. This reform trajectory is likely to continue as long as the EU membership perspective feels real.

The key words are ‘economic liberalisation’. Milliband cares not for the social consequences of Turkey’s membership. Has he visited Trabzon recently and seen just how ‘enlightened’ Turks treat their Christian past?

Turkish membership of the EU spells the end of the UK as we know it.

It seems more a mystery to me Shmuel why Israel did not open the boarder during the Hamas cease fire, you would almost get the impression that Israel wants another war?

…means the right to resort to irrational and bullying arguments when anyone criticises any aspect of Israeli state policy. Any aspect.

I’ve an idea. Why not just nuke the Gaza strip. That would get rid of the problem and all those Muslims living there have been asking for it anyway. Except there was no such thing as a Palestinian anyway.

Disagree and you are an anti-Semite.

Because they were killed for being Palestinian

Yep, that’s the sort of blood libel I was referring to.
The civilians were killed because they live in a terrorist enclave that refuses to stop murdering Israelis. Most of them, of course, were terrorists.

Poorly phrased: the majority of those killed were not civilians, of course, but terrorists.

Nealry Oxfordian says: “The civilians were killed because they live in a terrorist enclave that refuses to stop murdering Israelis. Most of them, of course, were terrorists.”

How do you know?

Except there was no such thing as a Palestinian anyway

Well, that shrill post certainly is an object-lesson in irrational bullying. Denying that someone is a Palestinian is not to deny that he is a person, and nobody on this board has made that ridiculous claim.
Still, blood libel against Jews is such a fun activity, innit?

Richard,

it is conceivable that Israel didn’t want rocket making material to flow thru the check points on the borders?

I wonder if Britain would supply a neighbouring state with fuel (as Israel has done, until attack by Islamic Jihad) whilst they are being attacked by that self same state?

Because even pro-Arab news outlets put the number of Hamas cadres at something like 85% of those killed.
Next!

Britain wouldn’t. Nobody would. The fact that Israel is attacked for being a ‘Nazi state of war criminals’ despite doing so is, perhaps, almost evidence that there is maybe a shade of an antisemitic mindset operating somewhere …

Sure, Modernityblog, so why not stop “rocket making material to flow thru the check points on the borders” but keep the boarders open to things such as say food?

nearly Oxfordian has has to answer my question – how does he know that Most of the 200 or so Palestinians killed where terrorists?

“It’s not hard to hazard a guess. Hamas thrives on abject misery: that’s why it callously goaded Israel into this operation, that’s why it refuses to evacuate the wounded while theatrically announcing that Gaza’s own hospitals cannot cope. The more awareness of the true nature of Hamas spreads among Arabs and Muslims, the more hopeful the outlook in the long run.”

Hamas thrives on misery? As if it was Hamas and not the Israelis starving Gaza!!

You are simply living in fantasy land. Support for Hamas will increase greatly because of this. The people you mentioned such as the Egyptian regime are dictatorships; Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza thus an attack on it is an attack on them.

Ire will be directed against the puppet Egyptian regime which has followed US orders to starve the Gazans. It doesnt represent anyone but itself. Mahmoud Abbas will also suffer a loss in support.

The idea that the Arab/Muslim world will have sympathy for the Isralis slaughetering and not the Palestinians being slaughetred is ziofantasy

Awareness of the true nature of Israel and its hatred for Arabs an Muslims is spreading much faster. Which is why this operation is a disaster for the Israelis

According to Sky News, Israel made contact by telephone with Palestinians in Gaza to warn them that if their houses were used for the launching of missiles then they would come under fire.

No doubt Hamas “encouraged” them to allow the continued launching by feeding them the usual guff that if they were killed they would go straight to heaven and/or threatening to kill themselves anyone who wanted to leave.

Farnos, where have you been? There has never been a ceasefire, as you misname it. Rockets have continued to be launched at Israeli civilians since Israel withdrew from Gaza.

Maven, I am inclined to agree with you. I would advocate an eye for an eye – that is a missile from Israel at Gaza for every kassam or Grad launched into Israel, but better aimed. Pity that the one Israeli in Sderot who tried to do that was prevented from doing so because of the danger to himself and his neighbours if the thing misfired. Shame that Hamas doesn’t care enough along similar lines.

Mr Kool Aid said
“Can someone please explain how this is going to help Israel’s long-term security, or even just how it’s going to undermine Hamas rather than increase its popular support?”

Do you want me to draw you a picture?

Hamas attack Israel regularly for months and Israel finally takes them out. It’s a simple equation.

I suppose you support the Palestinians violent struggle against Israel?

If so then you understand how the use of violence can achieve certain ends.

If you kill the enemy you reduce the threat. I’m not a big fan of the military solution but please don’t pretend that it makes no sense at all.

This meme of “If we kill them we only create more of them” is pure bollox.

If that is the case we might as well rollover and give them their caliphate.

If the idea that killing your enemy only creates more was true there would be no point in ever fighting any wars and the nazis would be a massive presence in Europe considering how many we killed.

The “We only create more of them” meme belongs in the dustbin of history along with cultural relativism, dogmatic multiculturalism and the anti imperialist Left.

It is sickening how many slimeballs at HP justify the starvation and seige of 1.5 million people and now justify the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians through airstrikes in built up areas. Schools, pharmacies and hospitals have been hit by the zionist terrorists; yet you bastards continue to justify it. Israel disregarded the ceasefire and killed Palestinians even while the so called ceasefire was in operation and the starvation of the people continued. You are worse than monsters. The PR exercise of letting in a few truck the day before you slaughter yet more people does not wash. The zionists are the worst terrorists in the world and you support them you sick maggots.

Nearly Oxfordian

“The civilians were killed because they live in a terrorist enclave that refuses to stop murdering Israelis. Most of them, of course, were terrorists.”

Yes an likewise Israeli civilians were killed because they live in a terrorist state which refuses to stop occupying Palestinian land, expelling and slaughtering Palestinians and illegally settling Jewish religious fanatics on confiscated Palestinian land.

“Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza thus an attack on it is an attack on them.”

I’m trying to square this one with earlier complaints about “collective punishment”.

Yohoho: “Farnos, where have you been? There has never been a ceasefire, as you misname it. Rockets have continued to be launched at Israeli civilians since Israel withdrew from Gaza.”

Err so why launch the attack now?

“Err so why launch the attack now?”

Err, you mean instead of putting up with the rocket attacks indefinitely? Yes, why?

Great post Ben. It’s just a shame how many people fall for the Palestinians’ games. For decades they have chuckled at how gullible Westerners fall for it.

Escalation in the south

“but keep the boarders open to things such as say food?”

as far as I remember food and medical supplies were getting thru for a large part of the “cease-fire”

Laughy MacLaughter. Jihadis kill Jews because their Jews – check – if you’ve got a strong stomach – what happened to the Rabbi and his wife in Mumbai. Don’t bother to check out whether or not you’re an infidel, they certainly won’t. In fact, they don’t mind, and on an average day probably kill more fidels than infidels. They easier to get at.

Operation Cast Lead

Yes an likewise Israeli civilians were killed because they live in a terrorist state which refuses to stop occupying Palestinian land, expelling and slaughtering Palestinians and illegally settling Jewish religious fanatics on confiscated Palestinian land

Every single word in the above is a lie. Must be some sort of record.

The zionists are the worst terrorists in the world and you support them you sick maggots.

The ‘anti-zionist’ loons are out and feeling at their zenith. I can’t tell if this one is more SWP, BNP or Islamist.

Mark -
I take it you don’t really like Joos, do you?

‘Scuse me, hypocrite, but Hamas has been caught withholding supplies from its people. It IS wilfully and intentionally starving its people when it can grab enough “starving” Palestinians to impress the intellectually bankrupt – except when there are photo opportunities in supermarkets with the likes of Lauren Booth.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/952322.html

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11272272.html

and lying about lack of supplies:

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2008/02/pallywood-and-the-gaza-blackout-a-hamasa/

And just because you are easily fooled don’t assume that people will be as easily fooled by the guff you write.

Even the poor mopes of Palestinians will eventually get sick of being used by their leadership while the latter are safely tucked out of harm’s way.

Brett – you tell me! If Hamas abandoning its unilateral cease fire has no consequence than why now and not a few months back, or why not wait a few months.

Hamas thrives on misery? As if it was Hamas and not the Israelis starving Gaza!!

The myth of the poor starving Gazans in the concentration camp … LOL.

Well Modernityblog – you forget wrong. Some “emergency” drugs and food were let through, but the borders could hardly be considered open for these things.

richard, why not ENGAGE with the very questions that you ask:

you implied that Israel has NOT sent in food and medical supplies to Gaze, during the “cease-fire”?

you are somehow surprised that Israel does not like continuous random rockets raining down on it citizens?

well? will you engage with your very own points?

If Hamas abandoning its unilateral cease fire has no consequence than why now and not a few months back, or why not wait a few months

Yes, why not let a few more Israelis be murdered. No big deal. Storm in a teacup. The Israeli government should align its strategy to advice from Farnos, who has only Israel’s best interests at heart.

There are demonstrations against the air-strikes going on in Israel by peace protesters. There seems to be more concern and opposition over there than on this thread.

Turkish membership of the EU spells the end of the UK as we know it.

I’m pretty sure that the UK as we know it has been irrevocably changed already over the past decade. Turkey’s membership would just be the last few shovelfuls of dirt on the coffin.

Some “emergency” drugs and food were let through, but the borders could hardly be considered open for these things.

Do those scare quotes actually mean something intelligent, or are they there to imply that in some mysterious way the Joos are horrid to let through ‘emergency’ drugs which in reality were ‘ordinary’ ones?
Your whole argument is ridiculous. Israel is not obliged to allow anything into an independent terrorist entity that murders its citizens.

There are demonstrations against the air-strikes going on in Israel by peace protesters. There seems to be more concern and opposition over there than on this thread

You are free to protest and demonstrate if you wish. This thread is, in fact, full of ignorant and pathological condemnation of Israel as a rogue Nazi terrorist illegal entity. Personally, I think that is sufficient ‘protest’.

“as far as I remember food and medical supplies were getting thru for a large part of the “cease-fire””

And fuel too. Do you remember when the Hamas attacked the fuel trucks coming from Israel to Gaza? I do.

“There are demonstrations against the air-strikes going on in Israel by peace protesters. ”

I don’t hear them over here. Maybe if you ask the hippie to shout louder…?

“Whoever is killed in this legitimate defence is considered a martyr.”

Not by me.

It seems to me that Nearly Oxfordian has let the cat out of bag in suggesting that Isreal has no obligation to allow anything into Gaza. So much for human rights it seems.

Richard,

instead of addressing Nearly Oxfordian’s venting (for the past 3 months threads at HP have been littered with NO’s abuse, stupidity and rants), why not ENGAGE with the questions of rockets fired at Israelis citizens and the issue of supplies to Gaza, as a consequence ?

that’s the material circumstances of people’s existence (you know that Marxist concept!), material, real life….

Mark Thompson

It is sickening how many slimeballs at HP justify the starvation and seige of 1.5 million people and now justify the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians through airstrikes in built up areas.

Well. You’ve seen the plethora of pictures of starving Palestinians hysterically doing the ‘injured bit’ for the TV crews. But, did you notice how rotund many of them were???

Have they been quietly eating some of their neighbors???? Have they been ’sharing’ with other neighbors.

Have a look at people in Darfur and make some comparisons.

And.

It is not indiscriminate murder. There are civilian casualties but most of the dead and injured are persons salaried by terrorist Hamas with money from the ‘evil Zionist entity’.

Great one, Nearly Oxfordian. Quote the former PM of Isreal and in context and get accused of promoting blood libel against Jews. You proved my point, well done.

My point is this: I am not sure what I really think about what the Isrealis have done. I don’t doubt that they are within their rights to protect their own citizens. I also don’t doubt that the way they treat the Gaza strip is a breach of UNSCRs 242, 338 etc

It’s complex. Coming on her and accusing – as you do – anyone of who expresses any doubts, asks any questions or just disagrees with you of being an anti-Semite is a piss poor way of trying to win an argument.

Israel has been trying to bomb the Palestinians out of the way for more than 40 years now. It doesn’t work. Cheerleading for the latest round in the slugfest isn’t a replacement for coming forward with ideas for a solution.

I note that the Daily Mail online calls it a “Revenge attack”.

This is NOT a revenge attack. By saying this they open the door to people saying “Hamas kills one Israeli and SO Israel kills 300″.

It did not have to be this way. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that the Palestinians could develop a prosperous, stable mini-state and build momentum for further negotiations towards a two-state solution. Tragically, Hamas turned Gaza into a front line military base in a long-term Islamist confrontation with Israel. Hamas, coaxed by Iran, has led Gaza into self-imposed international isolation. It has brazenly flouted international law in its treatment of Gilad Shalit. It has tried ceaselessly to sabotage two-state solution diplomacy, while intimidating and torturing Palestinian opponents and raining missiles and rockets indiscriminately into Israel. These missiles have killed and maimed and narrowly missed blowing up Israeli children in kindergartens and giant fuel storage facilities in built-up areas of Southern Israel. Israel’s bombardment of Hamas positions on Saturday 28 December was not the result of the previous seven days of Palestinian rocket attacks. It was the cumulative result of the previous seven years of rocket attacks, and the ideology which fuels them. That is the context for these events.

About the charge that Israel uses “disproportionate force,” my answer is to point out that there has been a much larger disproportionate hatred on the Arab side which targets not just those deeds and people who commit wrongful and criminal acts but whole peoples.

Read the Hamas charter and you will see an example of a disproportionate response: “all Jews are evil” they say. Such words lead to targeting of women and infants. Yet no one speaks of a disproportionate response of the part of the Arabs fighting Israel.

What was the murder of the Hassidic Rabbi and his wife in Mumbai if not an example of a disproportionate response?

Why is the firing of missiles at civilians in Israeli towns not an example of disproportionate force?

Which country in the world would have waited more than a year to respond to attacks on its civilians before it decided to strike back? This in itself is a sign of moderation.

Like Marty, I hope that each time a missile is fired, each time a suicide bomber kills innocents that Israel reacts with disproportionate force. Moderation doesn’t seem to work in this conflict.

There are demonstrations against the air-strikes going on in Israel by peace protesters. There seems to be more concern and opposition over there than on this thread.

Madam Miaow,

When you consider that hundreds of thousands of Israelis (out of a population of about 5 million at the time) turned out at a demonstration to demand accountability after the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres (for which Israelis were indirectly responsible); when you consider that hundreds of thousands of Israelis also demonstrated in favor of the Oslo peace process with the Palestinians in the days when that seemed promising; when you consider that tens of thousands of Israelis (I was among them) demonstrated to express outrage at Baruch Goldstein’s slaughter of 29 Palestinians in Hebron; it helps put these latest demonstrations by a few hundred Israelis in perspective.

As long as we all agree that the life of an Israeli child has equal value to that of a Palestinian child then I’ll accept that you all mean well

To ‘Liberty … if he understands anything’,

The Arabs and Palestine have been trying to bomb the Israelis out of the way for more than 60 years now. It doesn’t work. Cheerleading for the latest round in the slugfest isn’t a replacement for coming forward with ideas for a solution.

Gosh, if only the Arabs would recognize that Jewish people have the
right to exist. Gosh, if only YOU would recognize that Jewish people have the right to exist.

Europe 1930’s “Jews to Palestine” …
Europe 2000’s “Jews out of Palestine” …
“Don’t be here … Don’t be there … Just Don’t Be”

This is NOT a revenge attack

So you’re arguing it was an unprovoked attack?

Seperately, regardless of whether one thinks Israel’s actions have been good, bad, necessary, disporporationate, whatever, why did Hamas break the ceasefire? Didn’t they think Israel might react like this?

Teller of Truth, of course all Jews have a right to exist, and have right to live where ever and when ever they were where born. Do you except this right for Palestinians, do you except their right to return?

“Hamas thrives on abject misery: that’s why it callously goaded Israel into this operation”
Then it was foolish of Israel accept the goad and then to attack in a way that inevitably led to many civilian casualties, especially as Hamas’s rocket attacks since the ceasefire ended had killed more Palestinians than Israelis which would have led to questions in Gaza about their wisdom.

Europe 2000’s “Jews out of Palestine” …

Maybe where you shop

Channel 4 News is loving all this by the way

No-one would give a shit if 200 Israelis had been killed. In fact, the Arabs and their useful idiots in the west would invariably blame Israel and the Jews like they always do for everything.

The only way Hamas and their ilk will come to the negotiating table is when it’s been totally demonstrated that there is no way they can survive any other way. Israel need to perform more of these incursions, not less, and the relatives of dead Palestinian civilians can thank Hamas and Iran for their loss. Or vote them out and elect a set of less fascist politicians.

Then it was foolish of Israel accept the goad and then to attack in a way that inevitably led to many civilian casualties

Indeed, and it was vile for Hamas to goad Israel in the first place when they must have known Israel would respond in such a manner

Greg says “The only way Hamas and their ilk will come to the negotiating table…”

Err Greg it is the Isreali Government that refuses to talk to Hamas not the other way around my sausage.

Teller Of Truths

“The Arabs and Palestine have been trying to bomb the Israelis out of the way for more than 60 years now. It doesn’t work. Cheerleading for the latest round in the slugfest isn’t a replacement for coming forward with ideas for a solution.”

Only since the Israelis took over Arab land expelled its inhabitants and declared a state. And you forget that numerous Arab states DO recognise the Israeli state – while Israel doesnt recognise a Palestinian state.

“Gosh, if only the Arabs would recognize that Jewish people have the
right to exist. Gosh, if only YOU would recognize that Jewish people have the right to exist.”

Right so not accepting the theft of your land by a people is the same as rejecting their right to exist? You have a pretty low opinion of Jewish people

“Europe 1930’s “Jews to Palestine” …
Europe 2000’s “Jews out of Palestine” …”

Europe in 2000s isnt saying Jews out of Palestine.
And what does what the Europeans say or want have to do with the non-European Palestinians?

The UN statement is a waste of spacehttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050623.html

USA clarifies that nothing in the statement means israel had no right of defence.

Israel’s statement is, well, a bit of classic Jewish logic. It says something like “What’s the rush? When Hamas were firing rockets at Israel there was no UN emergency council meetings and condemnation of Hamas – so what’s the rush?” Brillant!

They are right. Any UN Resolution that supported israel’s position was always blocked by some irrelevant Islamist guest member of the SC. at the moment its Libya, at other times its been Bradford or Tipton.

When has there been a UN res that was 100% condemning of an Arab/Muslim country in the context of the ME conflict?

while Israel doesnt recognise a Palestinian state.

What countries do recognised a Palestinian state? Even Palestinians don’t recognise that

it is the Isreali Government that refuses to talk to Hamas

Considering the latter is committed to the annihalation of the former and its entire state, one can hardly blame them

“Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza thus an attack on it is an attack on them.”

Brett

“I’m trying to square this one with earlier complaints about “collective punishment”.

Try this- because people make a particular choice in an election doesnt make it right for them to be collectively punished or killed (and the only other choice for the Palestinians was the totally corrupt Fatah party which had been robbing them for 40 years)

You arguing it does is like Al Qaida arguing the UK or US population deserve to be punished for electing Bush or Blair.

“Indeed, and it was vile for Hamas to goad Israel in the first place when they must have known Israel would respond in such a manner”
We don’t expect any wiser or more humane actions from Hamas, however, Herman.

Herman

“Indeed, and it was vile for Hamas to goad Israel in the first place when they must have known Israel would respond in such a manner”

true -you mustnt anger murdering zionist maniacs who want to expel you from your land- they might murder you and expel you from your land

Nothing is ever Israelis fault.

MPACUK have long championed the cause of the Palestinians. People will not be occupied without resisting with force. The Palestinians will never be stopped for their quest for justice. NOW IS THE TIME TO FIGHT

MPAC UK still inciting racial and religious violence http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5188/103/#jreactions

I would be grateful if any many member of the current murderous bombing of the Gaza would answer me this: How is the present conflict ever going to brought to an end?

“The only way Hamas and their ilk will come to the negotiating table is when it’s been totally demonstrated that there is no way they can survive any other way.”

What? I thought Israel and the West was against the idea of negotiating with Hamas?

“Israel need to perform more of these incursions, not less,”

That’s the answer: perpetual war!

“..and the relatives of dead Palestinian civilians can thank Hamas and Iran for their loss.”

Yes, I’m sure they will see it that way, instead of becoming even more anti-Israeli and more likely to support Hamas/take part in terrorist acts against Israel.

“Or vote them out and elect a set of less fascist politicians.”

Er, what about those living in Gaza who didn’t vote Hamas?

a little reminder of recent history
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=34211

Where was all this hysteria when the Lebanese army was shelling the Palestinians in Nahr al Bared, in 2007?

Many more civilians died in that offensive, but I don’t remember opprobrium being cast on Lebanon.

In fact I think it was barely mentioned.

“Teller of Truths” – was that a serious response to me? You really are saying that anyone who questions any aspect of Israeli state policy is akin to Hitler. It’s pathetic and I’d suggest to you that it is because you have a very poor set of rational arguments to fall back on.

Tell me what the end game of this latest round is?

So you’re arguing it was an unprovoked attack?

Sigh … no, it was an operation to destroy the capability of Hamas to murder more Israelis. That’s no more ‘revenge’ than the police breaking up a murderous gang in the East End.

Nothing is ever Israelis fault.

Hey, I’m not arguing that. You’re the one trying to pin blame solely to one side

true -you mustnt anger murdering zionist maniacs who want to expel you from your land- they might murder you and expel you from your land

Assuming this is probably how ordinary Palestinians view Israel, it probably is a good idea not to anger them

Er, what about those living in Gaza who didn’t vote Hamas?

Er, what about the Germans who didn’t like Hitler? Should we not have fought Germany because some Germans were not Nazis?

Richard Farnos,

thank you, I wouldn’t have found it without your prompting, remember your past comments? “why Israel did not open the boarder during the Hamas cease fire, you would almost get the impression that Israel wants another war?”

“Total (June 16, 2007 – July 16, 2008): 28,112 trucks; 654,991 tons

The Unit for Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories reports daily on the general humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip. The data for the supplies transferred via the Karni and Sufa crossings are based on the reports of Palestinian merchants.

Two-way traffic at the Erez Crossing of international organizations’ staff, Gaza residents seeking medical treatment together with the people accompanying them (”medical evacuations”), and Palestinian civilians has been permitted for humanitarian reasons since 18 January 2007 and occurs almost daily.

Humanitarian aid includes food, medicines and medical equipment, tools and materials for esssential humanitarian infrastructures, and a certain amount of diesel fuel. Cement, sand, gravel and steel are not considered to be humanitarian aid.

Via the conveyor at the Karni Crossing, hundreds of tons of grain – wheat, barley, soy beans, corn and animal feed – are transferred from Israel to the Gaza Strip every week.

Via the Nahal Oz fuel depot, diesel fuel for transportation and for the local Gaza power station, petrol, and gas for cooking and heating are transferred from Israel to the Gaza Strip, according to an assessment of civilian needs mandated by the Israeli court (supply of cooking and heating gas is unlimited and according to demand).

Via the Sufa Crossing, the following supplies are transferred by truck from Israel to the Gaza Strip: food, including: baby formula and food, rice and legumes, fruits and vegetables, meat, chicken and fish, dairy products, flour and yeast, oil, salt and sugar; hygiene products; tools and raw materials for essential infrastructures; medicines and medical equipment; and a myriad of other items – ranging from school books to wheel chairs – needed by the civilian population.

…”

there’s a lot more, you would do well to read it.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/PANA-7GRFZE?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=ACOS-635PFR

“Total (June 16, 2007 – July 16, 2008): 28,112 trucks; 654,991 tons so supplies were entering Gaza.

“You arguing it does is like Al Qaida arguing the UK or US population deserve to be punished for electing Bush or Blair.”

You didn’t describe the ‘collective’ effort as extending only as far as an election. You said “Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza thus an attack on it is an attack on them.”

The one minute you’re trying to argue that people are not responsible for the actions of their people (which I generally agree with) but then next you’re saying that the people of Gaza and Hamas are effectively the same because of the election.

If you say one cannot separate Hamas from the people and indeed an attack on Hamas *is* an attack on the people, please explain how Hamas’s actions can be punished “uncollectively”.

Make up your mind.

why did Hamas break the ceasefire? Didn’t they think Israel might react like this?

Livni told Mubarak that the time was near for Israel to take this scale of military action. They gave Hamas a last chance and Mubarak told them. They ignored it and in 5 minutes Hamas paid the price.

All I want is for Hamas to put down their arms, march towards the border and surrender to Israel. Israel to hand them to Fatah in the West Bank.

What is clear is that this operation is designed to finish Hamas and it seems most countries will welcome it.

What? I thought Israel and the West was against the idea of negotiating with Hamas?

While they murder Israelis, yes. When they stop murdering, there is a realistic point in negotiations.

That’s the answer: perpetual war!

Send your complaints on a postcard to Hamas.
But to people like you, Israel defending itself against terrorists is always to blame. They are Joos, innit.

Yes, I’m sure they will see it that way, instead of becoming even more anti-Israeli and more likely to support Hamas/take part in terrorist acts against Israel.

The standard silly argument. Let’s not fight murdering thugs, because it might anger them.

According to the UN, 169 soldiers, 287 combatants and 42 civilians were killed during the offensive against the Palestinian camps in Lebanon last summer.

It is instructive to compare the response to that offensive to the response to this one.

Mark, Arabs killing Arabs has no news value. You can’t blame the Jews.

Richard Farnos
“Teller of Truth, of course all Jews have a right to exist, and have right to live where ever and when ever they were where born. Do you except this right for Palestinians, do you except their right to return?”

Not of course, neither Hamas not its parent organization accept this proposition.

Do you accept the right of the Jews to their own State? Do you want to destroy the only Jewish State in the world and create another Arab or Muslim country?

Muslims killing Muslims = ok
Israelis/gthe West killing Muslims = bad

instead of addressing Nearly Oxfordian’s venting (for the past 3 months threads at HP have been littered with NO’s abuse, stupidity and rants)

You sad little man. Kindly point to any abuse I have posted today.
You can’t? Is that mayhap because you are a liar?

I imagine a large portion of the Lebanese army is Christian.

However I doubt there is any “anti-imperialist” value in bashing Lebanon.

Déjà Vu:

“War with Zulus.
Cause: the Zulus.
Zulus exterminated.
Peace with Zulus”

-from 1066 and All That.
I’m afraid many people accept the same logic now from both the Palestinian and Israeli sides.

“All I want is for Hamas to put down their arms, march towards the border and surrender to Israel. Israel to hand them to Fatah in the West Bank.”

Actually, I’d like to see Egypt regain control of Gaza.

As a member of the current murderous bombing of Gaza (is it a club or a party?) I would try to answer your question. When we – the members of this bombing will believe that the longterm purpose of the Palestinians is to make peace and they will be ready to abandon their strategy of wiping us off then we will deal with our own extremists. Till then we have to deal with theirs.

Richard,

also see

Via the Kerem Shalom and/or Sufa Crossing, the following supplies are transferred by truck: food, including: milk powder and baby food, rice and legumes, fruits and vegetables, meat, chicken and fish, dairy products, flour and yeast, oil, salt and sugar; hygiene products; tools and raw materials for essential infrastructures; medicines and medical equipment; and a myriad of other items – ranging from school books to wheel chairs – needed by the civilian population.

However, Erez crossing has continued to be open to international and medical traffic.
…”

and

“Week of Dec. 14-18

On Sunday, Dec. 14, the crossings were closed (with the exception of Erez). On Dec. 15 and 16, the crossings were open (see below) until rocket fire began, resulting in closing all of the crossings except for Erez. Rocket fire continued and the crossings were still closed on Dec. 17.

Karni crossing: 58 trucks with 2134 tons of grains.

Kerem Shalom: 78 trucks with 1784 tons of goods

Nahal Oz depot: 642,200 liters of heavy diesel fuel for the power station; 174 tons of cooking and heating gas

Erez crossing: 60 people (patients and companions)

Week of Dec. 7-13, 2008

After a quiet day without rocket launchings, the Defense Minister gave permission to open the crossings (Dec. 9 & 10).

Erez crossing: (open every day to patients and to international humanitarian traffic) 142 medical evacuations

Kerem Shalom: 189 trucks, 2317 tons of goods on Dec. 9-10 and 1340 tons on Dec. 12: food, tools and raw materials, agricultural equipment and medicines.

Karni: 117 trucks, 2664 tons of grains and animal feed on Dec. 9-10 and an undisclosed amount on Dec. 11.

Nahal Oz: 865,900 liters of heavy diesel fuel for the power station, 379 tons of cooking and heating gas. In addition, special fuel supplies were transferred specifically for UNRWA: 299,000 liters of heavy diesel fuel, 101,000 liters of fuel for transportation, and 50,000 liters of gasoline. “

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/MYAI-7MK3GJ?OpenDocument

here’s a question:
where’s hizbollah?

could you imagine something like this going on in, say, 2005 without the hizbollah lobbing a few missiles and making all sorts of threats on tv? i guess they’ve become a little timid since they won the 2006 war, eh?

“Zulus exterminated.”

This most come as a huge shock to the 12 million or so Zulus, who make up ths single biggest language group in South Africa!

Modernityblog – a lorry crossing a border “almost daily” isn’t a open border by any stretch of the imagination.

Nearly Oxfordian – How are you going to bring this war to an end without negotiating with Hamas?

Mark T – you have a point I don’t recall HP condemning the attacks on the Palestinian camps either, although of course people like the SWP did.

You sad little man. Kindly point to any abuse I have posted today.
You can’t? Is that mayhap because you are a liar ?

I’ve bolded it for you

Kool Aid,

“What? I thought Israel and the West was against the idea of negotiating with Hamas?”

What are you drinking you kool aid with?

Israel is against negotiating against Hamas as long as Hamas endorses a charter which calls for its destruction. Would you negotiate with someone who wants to eliminate you?

“Yes, I’m sure they will see it that way, instead of becoming even more anti-Israeli and more likely to support Hamas/take part in terrorist acts against Israel.”

You have been drinking the British press kool aid again, kool aid.

No one can predict what will happen and it’s not the business of Israel to do so. Their aim is to stop Hamas and the Palestinian people from killing Israeli civilians, period.

They may not be able to stop that altogether but they can make the price per casualty so high that not even Hamas would want to risk such attacks.

farnos,

there was hundreds of lorries and 1000s of tons, have you even read the links? yes or no?

Quote the former PM of Isreal …

I also don’t doubt that the way they treat the Gaza strip is a breach of UNSCRs 242, 338 etc

Complete fantasy. This is trotted out all the time by people who don’t actually know what 242 etc say.

Coming on her and accusing – as you do – anyone of who expresses any doubts, asks any questions or just disagrees with you of being an anti-Semite is a piss poor way of trying to win an argument.

This is a standard lie, and repeating it ad infinitum still doesn’t make it anything but a lie. I have not accused anyone who expressed doubts or asked questions of being an antisemite. Those who screech that Israel is an evil Nazi terrorist entity, that Israel is entirely to blame, that it’s all the fault of the Zionists and has always been – that’s a different matter entirely. If it walks like a duck …

Israel has no obligation to keep its borders open. No country in the world is obliged to keep any of its borders open. All the more so, as the people on the other side have an official and declared policy of wiping that country off the map. Demanding that Israel, and only Israel, must keep its borders open to those whose declared aim is to destroy it, sounds like a duck to me.

Herman, do try to read and in fact follow an exchange. I had said nothing to Modernity, and have posted no personal abuse. He decided to attack me personally for no good reason whatsoever. Of course I called him a liar.

I’m still waiting for S O Muffin to comment before I take a position.

Err Greg it is the Isreali Government that refuses to talk to Hamas not the other way around my sausage.

Err little darling, Hamas don’t talk: they murder Israelis, and their declared aim is to destroy Israel.
Try to get your facts right before posting, my porkie pie.

[er, NO

"That in itself shows what a ridiculous adolescent mind he had."

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/25/prominent-milosevic-campaigner-dies/

there is barely a thread on HP, where you comment, that you don't abuse someone or something, you VENT, that's you, thus you are not worthwhile engaging with]

Mark T – you have a point I don’t recall HP condemning the attacks on the Palestinian camps either, although of course people like the SWP did.

Ahh the old political blog versus political party comparison

Just as I said the zionist trolls are out in force defending the indefensible. Your lies do not change the truth – the zionists are evil murdering scum and you are their supporters. According to you guys black is white and night is day. You will find a way to twist the truth. Thank god people like B’tslem are on the ground to lay bare your lies and expose the persecution of the Palestinian people. The land grab and slow genocide goes on but you will not win against the will of the Palestinian people.

Richard Farnos “I would be grateful if any many member of the current murderous bombing of the Gaza would answer me this: How is the present conflict ever going to brought to an end?”

you should be addressing this question to Hamas, Richard.

Why is it that you get excited when Jews defend themselves and not when Hamas is using disproportionate force when deliberately targeting Israeli infants and old women?

the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres (for which Israelis were indirectly responsible)

The massacres were committed by Arabs. Isn’t it wonderful how that little fact always gets brushed under the carpet?

Nearly Oxfordian: So would you be happy if the Palestinians starved to death?

What is Mark T on? I need to know what to avoid. My acid trip days are long over.

Richard, you do have a way with (twisting) words, that much I’ll grant you.

Shriber sure I would address this question to members of Hamas, and a reply would be welcome. But also address this question to you. How is lasting peace goimg to be brought about?

There is a particular type of person who spells it ‘Isreal’. It never fails as a giveaway.

Yes, a poor speller. I confess. I often spell Australia wrongly too (usually with an extra i). Though obviously in your crazy world poor spelling is a sign of latent (or otherwise) anti-Semitism.

I have not accused anyone who expressed doubts or asked questions of being an antisemite.

That’s great, but it’s not true. As you then go on to compare me with Nazis. When I have said that I do not doubt Israel has a right to defend itself.

I am also entirely familiar with the wording of 242, saying otherwise doesn’t make it otherwise.

the “siege” has been going on for a while now. how many palestinians have actually starved to death? ballpark number.

this question got me banned from lenin’s tomb. he has a heavy hand with the censor hammer.

Mark T – you have a point I don’t recall HP condemning the attacks on the Palestinian camps either, although of course people like the SWP did.

The point is one of consistency, Richard.

Why is it that some people reserve such opprobrium for Israeli attacks, when the equivalent attacks by the Lebanese army are met with total silence?

What is your explanation?

The blame for the Palestinian deaths lies with Kadima, not so much because of this inevitable operation, but because of the Gaza pullout. 100% of honest, decent, informed people with brains said it would be a disaster and it has. Kadima has blood on its hands.

But this website prefers to blame the brave settlers of Hebron for all the deaths their policy has caused.

I am not Mark Thompson, by the way.

Thankfully.

Only since the Israelis took over Arab land expelled its inhabitants and declared a state. And you forget that numerous Arab states DO recognise the Israeli state – while Israel doesnt recognise a Palestinian state.

How to fail Logic 101.
Israel recognises Egypt and Jordan, and indeed it recognises Syria (which doesn’t recognise Israel).
There IS no ‘Palestinian state’ to recognise.
Hamas not only fails to recognise Israel: its declared aim is to get rid of the ‘Zionist entity’. And you want Israel to recognise Hamastan? What a strange universe you inhabit.

Nealy Oxfordian: I twisted no words, just reflected to you the logic of your arguement.

But this website prefers to blame the brave settlers of Hebron for all the deaths their policy has caused.

Where on earth has this blog done that?

Then, Liberty, kindly give me chapter and verse of how Israel would be in breach of 242 by defending itself against the genocidal maniacs of Hamas.

Mark T: sorry, I got confused among the plethora of Marks. Do forgive me.

Then, Liberty, kindly give me chapter and verse of how Israel would be in breach of 242 by defending itself against the genocidal maniacs of Hamas.

When did I say that then?

Modernity, do get a dictionary and try to grasp the difference between personal abuse and a comment you happen to disagree with. I have every right to regard Pinter’s rants about the ‘Nazi’ western world – and they put any ‘rant’ I may have posted completely in the shade – as the product of an infantile mind. You may disagree. Fine, then say so. But you chose to post irrelevant personal abuse against me. Do you own a mirror?

lol
28 December 2008, 6:45 pm

“the “siege” has been going on for a while now. how many palestinians have actually starved to death? ballpark number.”

The answer is none.

But I suspect you knew that.

Tens of thousands of people around the world are actually starving every week. You may see a report pop up on ‘unreported world’ from time to time. Generally the world doesnt give a shit because it cannot be blamed directly on the yanks or zionists

Truth is, the Dick Farnos’ of this world dont really give a shit about starving people. Or the Palestinians.

They just come here for a bit of jew baiting (Farnos has form if you bother to scroll through several years of archives). I posted the comment below on the other thread this morning. You can add Farnos to the HB/Fink/Rosen grouping. The fact that the creep is here today is a good thing.

“Michael Rosen, Fink and HB all in one thread. They must be worried.

Not worried for the Palestinians. Its evident they do not really give a f**k.

Worried that the reaction of the world and its media is a little muted. Worried that the world realises that if Hamas had stopped the bombs, there would have been no response.

Worried, that despite the best efforts of Hamas, the world realises that the vast majority of those killed were Hamas.

Worried that today Abbas says that Hamas has brought this on the people of Gaza.

Worried that Egypt colluded with the Israelis, agreed that it was Hamas’ fault and did not warn Hamas of the impending attacks.

Basically, reduced to coming to Harrys Place, a blog they hate, and trying to make sense of it all.

Its basic guys. If you hate Israel, dont believe it should be there and want the country wound up….then this was a genociode/massacre/nazi atrocity etc

Most other people just see a country that was knowingly provoked into making a reaction. Some view that reaction as ‘disproportionate’ but dont really know what ‘proportionate’ would be. They just dont like seeing people die (a prefectly legitimate position to have).

Others like Rosen, Fink, Resistor, HB are just opportunists here for the wind-up.

Tuth is, beyond the boundaries of this blog, no-one really gives a shit what they think anyway.

Of course Fink had her 15 minutes of fame with her carols lark.

But again. Those that hated Israel delighted in it. It was a good Christmas story for a bored media. Everyone else thought ‘what a fucking moron’.

Israel will do what it has to do and will survive. Funnily enough it is not dependent on the goodwill of the Finks, Rosens and HBs of this world for its existence. That is a good thing.

MattG

ps Reluctant advice to the Finks of this world (Deborah Fink 28 December 2008, 2:05 am) who constantly accuse Israel of using the holocaust etc etc but then themselves are always the first to say things like….

” But how sad to see Zionists talking like Nazis. These Zionists are not Jews.”

It really makes you look stupid.”

Ah Friendly fire there Mark T, there consistency for you!

It is sickening how many slimeballs at HP justify the starvation and seige of 1.5 million people and now justify the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians through airstrikes in built up areas. Schools, pharmacies and hospitals have been hit by the zionist terrorists; yet you bastards continue to justify it.

Fuck off, wanker. Hamas have gleefully claimed responsibility for scores of suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians. They are therefore self-confessed war criminals. And should be treated as such.

Liberty, this denial is unseemly. You said that you don’t doubt Israel was in breach of 242, 338 etc. It’s in your post.

“The intention is clear: let’s call it ‘criticism’. I call it deranged Jew-hatred.”

“The civilians were killed because they live in a terrorist enclave that refuses to stop murdering Israelis. Most of them, of course, were terrorists.”

“The fact that Israel is attacked for being a ‘Nazi state of war criminals’ despite doing so is, perhaps, almost evidence that there is maybe a shade of an antisemitic mindset operating somewhere …”

“The myth of the poor starving Gazans in the concentration camp … LOL.”

“I have not accused anyone who expressed doubts or asked questions of being an antisemite.”

Aaahh…now I understand the inclusion of the prefix ‘nearly’.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7802078.stm

Afterwards Mr Galloway said: “The support at today’s demonstration has been overwhelming. There are even Jews who have joined us here.”

EVEN Jews! Who could believe those evil, bloodthirsty Jews wouldn’t be dancing around cheering on the death and destruction?

Koppers and MattG: quite so.

Mattg – Answer me this how is the current conflict in israel/palestinian ever to be brought to an end?

Oh is asking this question “jew baiting”?

Liberty, that particular tag-line has been replaced by “liberty, if it means anything at all, is the right to not to have to listen to the same old cobblers day-in, day-out”.

And, you also ‘mis-spelt’ Israeli in that post. Exactly the same way. I don’t think I’ve ever seen your particular sort of person spell Israel as Irseal or Isrela or… you get the drift.

P.S. Richard Farnos also ‘mis-spelt’ Israel and Israeli. Are you ‘im?

Farnos,

so there we have it, you make an assertion, when evidence proves you wrong, you ignore the evidence, you’ll make a fine politico!

but forgive me if I ignore both you and Nearly Oxfordian, I find discussing complex issues with cranks, the illiterate and the politically dense rather hard, so tend to avoid it.

still you won’t find any shortage of extremists to have a shouting match with, just wait for morgoth, Alcuin, Maven, etc they’ll probably suggest carpet bombing of Gaza as the sociopaths that they are :(

Richard, sadly you’ll be right at home with them :)

that’s the problem with HP’s comments policy of freedom of speech, these threads often get dominated by the screaming fanatics, as nearly anyone can post a comment

Well it seem to me that people to base their allegation of anti-semitism on the basis of very easy typing error simply shows the obsurdity of their arguements.

No, Farnos, you engaged in your usual Jew-baiting. I am not happy to see innocent civilians starve (not that you have a shred of evidence that anyone in Gaza has starved as the result of the Israeli … sorry … Jewish … err, right, the correct term is ‘Zionist’) murderous (or is it ‘Nazi’ today? perhaps ‘illegal’?) blockade.

The blockade, such that it was, was designed to stop suicide murderers and Hamas armaments getting into Israel. I dare say you remember with appropriate disgust the murder of Israeli fuel depot personnel conveying fuel to Gaza. I well remember your outraged comments at the time about the vile Hamas tactics. Oh, no, it was someone else.

Vincento, another would-be stand-up comedian who makes a fool of himself by trying to be witty and completely misunderstanding my screen name. And the subtle distinction between people asking questions, and accusing Israel of being a Nazi hornets’ nest.

Sad little Modernity … calls me a crank, illiterate and politically dense and then rants about my ‘abusive’ posts.

Oh yes, and calling people ’sociopaths’ because they have the temerity to disagree with the great Modernity. He has a blog, he must be omniscient, innit.

Mordernityblog – I know your not a nutter and sorry if I have been a tad hard on you. But quoting the traffic movement for four days does not prove that the Israeli Government has not been playing silly bugger with the border. A move that only increases the power of the likes of Hamas, not undermines them.

The truth, as a you well know Modernityblog, for there to be peace in the Israel/Palestinian is for there to be real negotiations with all force of signifcance and without pre-condition. Whether you like it or not, this includeds Hamas!

“And the subtle distinction between people asking questions, and accusing Israel of being a Nazi hornets’ nest.”

If only YOU could. Self-awareness is not one of your strong points, I take it – as your continuous ranting reveals.

Modernity has got you nailed, mate.

““Zulus exterminated.”

This most come as a huge shock to the 12 million or so Zulus, who make up ths single biggest language group in South Africa!”

I quoted Sellar and Yeatman for their psychological perception rather than their historical accuracy, Brett.

In your acid-fuelled fantasy, V.

I’m afraid many people accept the same logic now from both the Palestinian and Israeli sides.

Yet, as it’s not based on anything like a rational reading of the situation, it should be treated as what it was… a joke.

Modernity said -

Total (June 16, 2007 – July 16, 2008): 28,112 trucks; 654,991 tons so supplies were entering Gaza.

Richard Farnos’ response -

A lorry crossing a border “almost daily” isn’t a open border by any stretch of the imagination.

Do the maths, Richard. Please.

Mark Thompson

“Your lies do not change the truth – the zionists are evil murdering scum and you are their supporters. According to you guys black is white and night is day. You will find a way to twist the truth. Thank god people like B’tslem are on the ground to lay bare your lies and expose the persecution of the Palestinian people. The land grab and slow genocide goes on but you will not win against the will of the Palestinian people.”

This is what passes for reasoned debate?

Richard Farnos “Shriber sure I would address this question to members of Hamas, and a reply would be welcome. But also address this question to you. How is lasting peace goimg to be brought about?”

That’s an easy question, Richard. Accepting the answer won’t be as easy.

Everyone knows what the parameters of a settlement will be: an acceptance of a two State solution

Let the Palestinians stop committing and inciting violence.

Let the PA disarm all militias in Gaza and on the Wets Bank.

Let Israel take down all outposts and settlements from the West bank except those that will be retained mostly around Jerusalem and for which the PA will be compensated with a transfer of an equal amount of land from Israel proper.

Points one and two are crucial for Israel to be able to implement point three. Unless the Israeli public sees that the Palestinians are committed to an end to violence they will not be in any mood to go after the settlers thugs who disrupt life on the West Bank.

Let me remind you that Israel did withdraw from Gaza and the result was the Hamas take over and the launching or rockets at Israeli towns.

Let me remind you also that there was a negotiating process in place when Arafat launched the second intifada.

Finally I suspect that if Israel is able to weaken Hamas then the PA will reestablish its authority in Gaza and that could well hasten negotiations and a peace accord.

At the moment though Israel’s first priority is the defense of its citizens.

nearly Oxfordian has has to answer my question – how does he know that Most of the 200 or so Palestinians killed where terrorists?

He knows because he’s quite an intelligent poster. Because the bombs were dropped onto Hamas security compounds which held Hamas people and not school Christmas parties or Stamp Collectors conventions.

The reported casualty count from a Palestinian police source was 140 Hamas dead out of 155 reported deaths. If youve seen the accuracy of having taken out a police station amongst other buildings its incredible.

Israel also texted civilians near to Hamas sites to evacuate.

What I find stratnge is that we have gone from 140 out of 155 – about 95% without my calculator to “300 deaths”. But the Hamas number has never been restated. Of course Hamas will have forbidden it.

I believe that the Palestinian numbers are fakes because Palestinians have tendency to exaggerate for propaganda reasons.

For example that antisemite Palestinian broadcaster Tallawi said on radio yesterday that Israel had a massacre at Jenin, that well-known lie.

Now, YOU tell us how many died and how many were Hamas. The same trick was played by Hezbollah who refused to acknowledge that any Hezbollah were killed in the Lebanon death figures.

Mark Thompson: “The land grab and slow genocide goes on but you will not win against the will of the Palestinian people.”

Spoken like a true Jew hater.

Thompson prefers the slow genocide of the Jewish people.

It is sickening how many slimeballs at HP justify the starvation and seige of 1.5 million people

THERE ARE NO STARVING PALESTINIANS!!

Lauren Booth’s photos from Gaza and the film of Gazans during this Israeli response to Hamas PROVES that Mr Kool Aid Thompson!

and now justify the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians through airstrikes in built up areas.

The attacks are discriminate and on Hamas facilities. There is no targetting of Palestinian civilians and no murder here.

Schools, pharmacies and hospitals have been hit by the zionist terrorists; yet you bastards continue to justify it.

Phew, missed the brothels and The Shariah Palace Chinese restaurant.

What’s wrong with a “Go Israel hit that Hamas, Baby – (

Israel disregarded the ceasefire and killed Palestinians even while the so called ceasefire was in operation and the starvation of the people continued. You are worse than monsters. The PR exercise of letting in a few truck the day before you slaughter yet more people does not wash. The zionists are the worst terrorists in the world and you support them you sick maggots.

It is sickening how many slimeballs at HP justify the starvation and seige of 1.5 million people

THERE ARE NO STARVING PALESTINIANS!!

Lauren Booth’s photos from Gaza and the film of Gazans during this Israeli response to Hamas PROVES that Mr Kool Aid Thompson!

and now justify the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians through airstrikes in built up areas.

The attacks are discriminate and on Hamas facilities. There is no targetting of Palestinian civilians and no murder here.

Schools, pharmacies and hospitals have been hit by the zionist terrorists; yet you bastards continue to justify it.

Phew, missed the brothels and The Shariah Palace Chinese restaurant.

What’s wrong with a “Go Israel hit that Hamas, Baby – (But avoid those civilian casualties)? Effectively what the USA & UK Govts said and what the latest UN statement acknowledges. Its what Egypt and abbas have indicated by their comments.

Israel disregarded the ceasefire and killed Palestinians even while the so called ceasefire was in operation and the starvation of the people continued.

No starvation. No breach of some ceasefire.

You are worse than monsters.

Woof! Growl! Roar – Me Son of Godzilla and Mothra

The PR exercise of letting in a few truck the day before you slaughter yet more people does not wash.

DOH!!!! Hamas fell for it. Brilliant!

The zionists are the worst terrorists in the world and you support them you sick maggots.

I will soon be a fruit fly, jump in some dog turd and land on your cheese sandwich.

Remember, Israel was careeful not to elongate suffering by taking out Hamas in all of 5 minutes. We’ve had teh Six Day War, now the “5 minute whack”!

farnos,

you argue in such bad faith that I shall leave you to the tender mercies of NO and his right wing mates

you did NOT even trouble to engage for a moment with your own comments, when evidence was produced, you dismissed it as I would expect you to, because basically you don’t agree with Israel’s very existence thus there is NOTHING that Israel could ever do, apart from jumping in the Red Sea, that would satisfy you

as pointed out above you have “form”, when the topic relates to Jews, Israelis, Israel or Zionism (search the archives and you’ll see your own silly remarks), but I am just sadden that in all of this time you haven’t learn one iota about the Middle East or even TRIED to see the problems and issues

me? I favour a negotiated two states solution, Israelis living free of rocket attacks, suicide bombings or shootings in libraries, equally I will be most happy when Hamas cease to exist, as right-wing genocidal theocratic militia are not something I would inflict on the Palestinians or the Middle East in general

I favour Palestinians and Israelis living free from attack, and these conflicts resolved by political, NOT military means, which is why I have little time for extremists who seem to salivate when either the blood of Israelis or Palestinians is spilled

I don’t think you’ll understand any of that, but still that’s where I’m coming from

Yes, NO – I did say I didn’t doubt it: after all 1(i) of 242 calls for a withdrawal from the territories occupied which hasn’t happened anywhere.

Alec, you got me. I clearly am a anti-Semite because I, like many other poor spellers, get vowels and not consonants confused.

No, I’m not that other person.

I also don’t doubt that the way they treat the Gaza strip is a breach of UNSCRs 242.
I challenge you to quotee Res 242 at us to substantiate your very stupid response. I know you’ll get eaten alive on this one. Go on – I’m hungry for it

While I’m at it I will offer you “Israel has never breached a UN Resolution”. I ‘get’ so many people on this one. Consider it an educational exercise

I’ve an idea. Why not just nuke the Gaza strip. That would get rid of the problem and all those Muslims living there have been asking for it anyway

But that would kill Christians too! (and risk Israelis on the border)

Liberty you got it wrong read it again it says “territories” without the definite article. The framers of the resolution have specifically mentioned that the definite article was purposely omitted because it was anticipated that Israel would retain some of the territory it captured in the Six Day War which was captured in a defensive war and by rights Israel would be able legally to annexe. By the way most of the territory Israel captured has already been returned to the Egyptians.

Farnos

“Mattg – Answer me this how is the current conflict in israel/palestinian ever to be brought to an end?”

Modernity:

“I favour a negotiated two states solution, Israelis living free of rocket attacks, suicide bombings or shootings in libraries, equally I will be most happy when Hamas cease to exist, as right-wing genocidal theocratic militia are not something I would inflict on the Palestinians or the Middle East in general

I favour Palestinians and Israelis living free from attack, and these conflicts resolved by political, NOT military means, which is why I have little time for extremists who seem to salivate when either the blood of Israelis or Palestinians is spilled”

Mod pretty much sums up my position. And saves me having to correspond directly with the rather unpleasant Farnos.

Bottom line is I come to this blog because its informative and its heart is in the right place. The views of the hasbara busters, farnos’, theIriots of this world matter not a jot to me.

Their heart, spirit, ethics are not ones I share. Hence I couldnt give a flying fuck what they think.

MattG

You’re quite right Nachman, except in the French language version, which does have the definite article, in the cause of confusion.

Liberty I suggest you read this:-
http://newsocietyjournal.com/2007/09/07/the-unmaking-of-un-resolution-242-the-story-of-how-resolution-242-was-undone-before-it-was-even-finished/

Then you can be really confused!

“Across the Arab and Islamic worlds, there has been a predictable wave of protest against Israel’s continuing operation to defend the western Negev from the rocket and mortar attacks of Hamas.”

I stopped reading there

I’ve an idea. Why not just nuke the Gaza strip. That would get rid of the problem and all those Muslims living there have been asking for it anyway

LIBERTY, IF IT MEANS ANYTHING AT ALL, IS THE PRIVILEGE TO SALIVATE AT PORNOGRAPHIC LEVELS OF VIOLENCE BECAUSE YOU ARE ONE OF THE ELECT NOT SUBJECT TO THE SAME RULES AS THE LITTLE PEOPLE

Are you Abd Al-Bari Atwan?

It did not have to be this way. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that the Palestinians could develop a prosperous, stable mini-state and build momentum for further negotiations towards a two-state solution.

Not so.

Israel withdrew from Gaza to freeze the political process with the Palestinians. This is Sharon’s foreign policy adviser, Dov Weisglass, in an interview with Haaretz:

“When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem…Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state . . . has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=485929

Alec, you got me. I clearly am a anti-Semite because I, like many other poor spellers, get vowels and not consonants confused.

LIBERTY, IF IT MEANS ANYTHING AT ALL, IS THE PRIVILEGE TO SALIVATE AT PORNOGRAPHIC LEVELS OF VIOLENCE BECAUSE YOU ARE ONE OF THE ELECT NOT SUBJECT TO THE SAME RULES AS THE LITTLE PEOPLE

I didn’t mention that I thought you were an antisemite. All I did was observe that yours was not a random or isolated typo. I have to admit that, having grown-up in a certain environment, I sometimes find myself mentally omitting the final five letters in Pakistanis or referring to the Chinese as a bend in a straight line, but have trained myself not to.

Yet you repeatedly refer to Israel as Isreal. Why is that?

I’ve an idea. Why not just nuke the Gaza strip. That would get rid of the problem and all those Muslims living there have been asking for it anyway

Are you Abd Al-Bari Atwan?

Final five in Pakistani or final six in Pakistanins.

Oh, for fuck’s sake! Final seven in Pakistanins or final six in Pakistanis.

So we all agreed that peace is going to brought about by negotiations – so why do people think that this is going be brought about by bombing civilians?

Zionist nazis are writing a new page in the annals of cruelty and barbarism in Gaza. Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, the Conquistadores, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot – every Israeli prime minister since 1948 joins this list of mass murderers.

Today protests in solidarity with the Palestinians took place in every part of the world, including Israel. There were no protests in solidarity with the Israeli butchers.

One day Palestine will be free, and its land will extend from the river to the sea. Zionism must and will be destroyed in order that both Arabs and the Jews can once again live in peace.

Solidarity with the Palestinian people!

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/breaking_point.asp

Sad to say, I can’t actually tell if Free Palestine is a parody or not.

why do people think that this is going be brought about by bombing civilians?

The people that believe that are Hamas & Hizbollah. The Hamas militia clique who have Gazas’ population by the balls, and through the despicable, cowardly and delusional actions of this clique, Gazan civilians are paying a heavy price.

IDF targets Hamas militants
Hamas targets Israeli civilians.

Do you see the difference Farnos? No?

I believe Free Palestine to be a parody. Either way, one not to be taken seriously.

So we all agreed that peace is going to brought about by negotiations – so why do people think that this is going be brought about by bombing civilians?

It works very well. Ask Germany and Japan.

Of course, I won’t accept the poisoned question because Israel isn’t bombing civilians.

Hasbara Buster

“This is Sharon’s foreign policy adviser, Dov Weisglass, in an interview with Haaretz . . .”

Interesting thought but Sharon has been in a coma for goodness knows how long and was not even around when the expulsion of the settlers from Gaza took place. Maybe you should ask Mr Olmert why he went ahead with it and then entered negotiations with Abbas at Annapolis if not to process the two state solution. It’s rather like quoting Mr Blair’s foreign policy adviser when explaining what Mr Brown’s foreign policy is.

Afterwards Mr Galloway said: “The support at today’s demonstration has been overwhelming. There are even Jews who have joined us here.”

EVEN Jews! Who could believe those evil, bloodthirsty Jews wouldn’t be dancing around cheering on the death and destruction?

BBC says 700, SWP website says 2,000.

I always remember Galloway and the caller from Hendon

After Galloway has introduced “xxxx FROM HENDON”, and xxxx makes his claim, Galloway fades him down and announces “By the way I would like to wish all Jews well on the event of their most holy day which has just passed today (Yom Kippur)”, and then tackles the caller’s error.

What could possibly be the trigger for Galloway’s sentiment. Key words entered The Matrix in his head. Autonomic programs whirred and they hit the key stimuli “Hendon”, “Israel”, “North London accent”. That can ONLY mean one thing……. “I am most likely talking to a Jew. Must get the stroking in first.”

A little later the caller labels Galloway “A Nazi.” “You are just like a Nazi because Hitler tried to label everyone a Jew. I’m NOT a Jew!”

Classic!

Yet you repeatedly refer to Israel as Isreal. Why is that?

Because I am a poor speller. Actually, if you look you’ll see I managed to spell it both ways, possibly even in the same sentence.

It’s not political and it is pretty silly to suggest that it is.

Obviously my modest proposal that Israel nuke the strip (a parody of some people’s attitudes here rather than Israeli policy) was just too Swiftian for some. The point is this: if you don’t accept there are any issues of proportionality then you are indeed saying nuking the place (assuming the wind is blowing from the east or the north) is the ideal solution.

Similarly if you don’t even accept that civilians are being killed then you are repeating the language of Black September. All targets are military targets anyone?

It is remarkable that even when you explicitly state that Israel has a right to defend itself but just question how it is doing so you are accused of promoting blood libels and much else besides.

It’s not anti-Semitic to say at any time that Israel is following the wrong policy or even a bad policy.

As for 242 – that is really an argument for another time. But plainly Israel continues to occupy the territorial waters and border of the Gaza strip.

There were no protests in solidarity with the Israeli butchers.

What’s Norman Goldberg and La Boucherie done now!!

Hasbara buster – when you go to site you indicate you see that you are selective because in the very next paragraph Wiseglass says quote:
“The American term is to park conveniently. The disengagement plan makes it possible for Israel to park conveniently in an interim situation that distances us as far as possible from political pressure. It legitimizes our contention that there is no negotiating with the Palestinians. There is a decision here to do the minimum possible in order to maintain our political situation. The decision is proving itself. It is making it possible for the Americans to go to the seething and simmering international community and say to them, `What do you want.’ It also transfers the initiative to our hands. It compels the world to deal with our idea, with the scenario we wrote. It places the Palestinians under tremendous pressure. It forces them into a corner that they hate to be in. It thrusts them into a situation in which they have to prove their seriousness. There are no more excuses. There are no more Israeli soldiers spoiling their day. And for the first time they have a slice of land with total continuity on which they can race from one end to the other in their Ferrari. And the whole world is watching them – them, not us. The whole world is asking what they intend to do with this slice of land.”

We now know what they intended and for that they are now paying!!

i think this sums up the situation fairly well: “Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us.” – Golda Meir.

Defeat of Hamas by Israel is an important global event, especially as Israel is really the iconic Jew for Arab/Muslim countries.

That they will be defeated by “Jews” led by a woman, Tzivi Lipni will be a great blow to their pride.

It send sa supportive message to the West in their fight against Terror. Livni said this in her interviews. I am sure that country leaders will criticise israel but deep down they know it will be a good thing that Terrorism gets so comprehensively defeated.

While I get a sense of the criticism by the usual suspects I don’t get the same feeling of criticism from World leaders – maybe its the quiet season for media.

It seems to me that no-one will cry for a Hamas defeat but may may be cheering in a few weeks. I think the end-game is the arrest of Hamas leaders for war crimes – or their death while being arrested.

I think a great gesture would be to subdue Hamas and let West Bank Fatah go through the crossings with food and medical aid. Send doctors and show Gaza that they can still be Palestinians without terrorism.

Maybe Israel will one day be seen as liberators.

maven, you may be getting just a little carried away.

Because I am a poor speller. Actually, if you look you’ll see I managed to spell it both ways, possibly even in the same sentence.

LIBERTY etc.

Actually, you had mis-spelt it twice. I have tendencies for contractions or idiomatic spellings – e.g. Brits, Aussies, Frenchies, Kiwis, sometimes even Yanks – but there are some I would not spell in certain ways – e.g. Israelis, Chinese, Japanese – or tolerate when others do so. Indeed, the rest of your posts have been properly spelt and with entirely readable grammar and syntax.

Bush has done so with Pakistanis. I doubt he is a racist, only extremely dim and deserving of the ridicule he received.

Then, to compound it, you give the usual stuff about Resolutions 242 or 338 calling for unilateral action by one side. You *even* claim what is happening now is discussed in them. They *are* discussions for a different time.

As you then go on to compare me with Nazis.

Actually, I did not.

When I have said that I do not doubt Israel has a right to defend itself.

This was made one solitary passing comment, unlike the bulk of your argument which has required unending equivocation and rationalization from others (even if it is mostly Nearly, who can find his own Masada-of-one as far as I’m concerned) and the usual guff about 242 and 338.

You say it’s complex, which it is. We have two bruised peoples who are not going to beat their swords into ploughshares over night, but need decades as Europeans required post-1945. Your first comment was an Emperor Qin-class straw man with the implication that anyone disagreeing with you wishes to obliterate Gaza and would call you an anti-semite (sic.).

Finally, your chosen handle suggests your bigger gripe is with what you believe a webpage to represent and not the matter in hand.

Can you see why I might assume you’re not playing on a level field?

You are so right Maven.It will humiliate the subhuman palestinian vermin to be defeated by a transsexual called Zippy Livid.Deep down in their wooden hearts,world leaders will know that it can only be a good thing that Horribleness has been vanquished.

i think this sums up the situation fairly well: “Now kiss my fat ass, you freakin slimeballs.” – Ariel Sharon.

One day Palestine will be free, and its land will extend from the river to the sea. Zionism must and will be destroyed in order that both Arabs and the Jews can once again live in peace

With hardly any Jews left and the remainder as Dhimmis I suspect that will be easy for you.

The fact is that no Arabs or Muslims can ever defeat Israel. Has it sunk into your thick head that Israel destroyed all Hamas compounds in FIVE MINUTES. Given another 20 minutes Gaza could be a new building site.

Arabs have nothing like this. You’re lucky Israel aren’t Russia who would have carpet bombed to send a ‘don’t do that again message’.

This is the problem with dumb asses like you. All bellicose and pumped-up by Bin Laden and Jihad videos of helpless captives being killed and you think you have any real fighting ability or strategy.

I checked with a site listing IAF and do you know they have about 450 combat planes with some of the best pilots in the World. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force

I suggest you should keep quiet and tone your friends down in case you convince a country to make a fatal mistake.

How you feeling now “Free Palestine” to know that you will only be free under Israel’s terms and neither you or your pals can do a damn thing about it. (as evidence ever since 1922 when every Arab attack ended up a disaster for Arabs)

Again,you are so right Maven.But don’t you think that not enough Arabs have been exploded?Surely Israel needs yo send an even stronger message,by much more slaughter?

You are so right Maven.It will humiliate the subhuman palestinian vermin to be defeated by a transsexual called Zippy Livid.Deep down in their wooden hearts,world leaders will know that it can only be a good thing that Horribleness has been vanquished.

Yes, indeed. Not only “subhuman palestinian vermin” but the real human being ones(majority) and the terrorists (aka subhuman palestinian vermin “. Let’s teach them NOT to want to kill Jews and Infidels. It will be a good thing so they can use their energy for building economies and Pole Dancing clubs like the rest of great societies.

We teach our children not to run out into the road so we must teach some people not to want to kill people for being Jewish or for being a non-Muslim. Surely there is nothing wrong with this?

Again,you are so right Maven.But don’t you think that not enough Arabs have been exploded?Surely Israel needs yo send an even stronger message,by much more slaughter?

Ah, I see you are too familiar with the Islamist Model of justice. You forgot the MORAL dimension of not deliberately killing civilians. I simply counselling countries and their supporters that attacking Israel seems to be a guaranteed defeat – so why bother?.

BTW – its funny you can’t detect the irony and mild parody. How about having a go at “Free Palestine” who is shouting about Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing.

Popping at me is great fun – for me – and an easy win. Didn’t anyone warn you not to bother to argue with me? You now have to avoid any concept that can be made fun of. (a bit like Free Palestine in fact)

“you will only be free under Israel’s terms and neither you or your pals can do a damn thing about it.”

And there you have it: the explanation as to why all so called ‘peace process’ negotiations end in disagreement. So, Palestinians, when you sit down at the table with Israelis, understand this (according to the World of Maven) ‘you will only be free under Israel’s terms’.

And as you rattle your weaponry and (nuclear warheads too perhaps?), you might pause for a moment and consider the total in dollars, arms advice, interest free loans etc received by Israel, in the last, say, forty years, from the most advanced military power in the world? ARe you sure it’s just Israel that’s been winning? All on its own? Really?

I am getting somewhat annoyed by the constant question posed by the media “does this have something to do with the elections?”

So what if it does? Should Israeli politicians not consider the views and needs of the people they are democratically accountable to?

The people of the western Negev have been pleading with their government to help them have some respite from the misery they have been forced to live with, thanks to the martyrdom seeking animals of Hamas. Will this action in Gaza be successful? I don’t know, I doubt it, but I hope and pray that it is.

May HaShem protect the people in Israel, and the innocent in Gaza.

But don’t you think that not enough Arabs have been exploded?

I really don’t know. Are they just “Arabs” or are they “School Teacher Arabs” , “Tax Inspoector Arabs” or “Terrorist Arabs who want to kill Jews and Infidels wherever they find them” Let me know your mix and I might be able to answer.

Surely Israel needs y(t)o send an even stronger message,by much more slaughter

Not really, Israel sent a strong message by a very strategic attack on Hamas and so ’slaughter’ hasn’t happened and won’t happen.

Now, suppose 2m Arab fighters jumped across the Israel/Lebanese border then I support battlefield slaughter (like any military man since Mohammed) until the attackers are repelled and stop. I guess that’s what we call War.

It seems more a mystery to me Shmuel why Israel did not open the boarder during the Hamas cease fire, you would almost get the impression that Israel wants another war?

Well actually, that little ‘blockade/siege’ that everybody like talking about was a complete and utter lie!

http://www.bicom.org.uk/news/news-archive/bicom-briefing–the-gaza-strip—access-and-terrorism

The amount of humanitarian aid getting through to Gaza DOUBLED during the ceasefire.

You should ask the israeli embassy for stats about which border crossings were open and closed for every day of the last 6 months – They have all the info and you’d be surprised by the tiny number of days where all crossings were close. OF COURSE, you probably wouldn’t believe it because it came from an Israeli source but….that’s another issue!

“I’m still waiting for S O Muffin to comment before I take a position.”

According Muffin, Hamas would never be so politically stupid as to harm Gilad Shalit, so you don’t need to worry about him at least.

Richard Farnos
28 December 2008, 5:09 pm

It seems to me that Nearly Oxfordian has let the cat out of bag in suggesting that Isreal has no obligation to allow anything into Gaza. So much for human rights it seems.

With rights come corresponding respnsibilities.

The people of Gaza have human rights, but also have a responsibility not to allow terrorists to attack the very people that are helping them!

Hasbara buster – when you go to site you indicate you see that you are selective because in the very next paragraph Wiseglass says quote:

The very next paragraphs you quote don’t change the assertion made in the first paragraphs that the disengagement was intended to freeze the political process with the Paelstinians.

Further, Weisglass does not support your theory that Israel withdrew from Gaza “in the hope that the Palestinians could develop a prosperous, stable mini-state and build momentum for further negotiations towards a two-state solution.” He’s very clear that it withdrew to put “the Palestinians under tremendous pressure” and to force “them into a corner that they hate to be in,” apart from the previously stated objective of removing the issue of a Palestinian state from Israel’s agenda.

So, Palestinians, when you sit down at the table with Israelis, understand this (according to the World of Maven) ‘you will only be free under Israel’s terms’

Exactly, and what if Palestinians will only agree to peace under THEIR terms.

You fell into a great logical pit that illustrates thinking of only a sequential nature without any lateral dimension. I suspect its thinking rather tainted with prejudice

These are not equal partners. Strictly speaking Jews have a right to settle in all of Palestine, which means West Bank and Gaza under the original Mandate For Palestine. So, Israel is being asked to give up a right if Palestinians insist on the removal of all Jews from West Bank.

Who benefits MOST from two-states? The Palestinians because Israel could keep this situation going for ever and subduing any Palestinian terrorism just like they have put down Hamas.

In reality, there is a commitment to two-states by Israel and so it will happen. But why should Israel concede Jerusalem? I think they won’t and that then becomes Israel’s terms as a sticking point.

What if the Palestinians say “No Jews in West Bank?” well there you have it everyone, Palestinians ask for an Apartheid state but Israel won’t let them have one.

My commnet about this being on Israel’s terms is actually highlighting that Israel has the upper hand in negotiations and doesn’t have to concede things they don’t want to concede. Palestinians have nothing to offer actually. Its really all Israel concessions.

In a sense that also makes it “On Israel’s terms” as they have the cake and have to decide how much to give away.

Well I suppose it is better that stevieb is not hiding behind the epithet “Zionist” in his pointless and ignorant rant.

Actually, I’m being quite unfair in that post.

Jews have suffered more than anybody else in the whole world, I failed in not accounting for the specialness factor.

Because jews are really smart – well, they kinda like, are more smart than non-jews so they are alot more….sensitive. So they are kind of tender and need to be allowed to lie and steal and kill people more than others – and because they are so important and moral and smart and stuff – they can kill lie and steal more than anyone else.

It’s really only fair, I guess

Boy I wish I was jewish.

I think I’m going to go cry now.

Do you enjoy being an overt racist, stevie?

stevieb: come back and talk to us when you learn to say “zionist” instead of “jew” and when you are able to make a coherent statement. Also be factual: Jews may be able to do a lot of things, but they hardly “lie and steal and kill” more than other people, less in fact. They are however, considerably smarter. Possibly even smart enough to figure out who you are and come for you, you miserable little racist pr*ck. Be afraid, be very afraid.

It’s quite interesting. In both posts he seems very concerned over the issue of whether or not he wishes he were Jewish. His anti-Semitism seems to float in a sea of envy.

Tosser.

“Boy am I glad I’m not jewish.

Well actually it probably wouldn’t be so bad because if I was a jew I wouldn’t give the crap on the bottom of my boot for anybody but other jews”

I know that the overwhelming majority of readers and posters on HP are decent enough and wise enough to reject the above nonsense. But despite this I am inclined to recount, the time when a Rabbi known as the Alter of Kelm, a very prominent Lithuanian Rabbi, refused to ever walk on a particular road, as it had been build as a result of the forced labour of Russian non-Jews prisoners.

I am also reminded of the Bobover Rabbi, Rabbi Shlomo Halberstam, who gave up a job in a factory in Lemberg during the war, a job which provided him with a lifesaving permit, because he did not want to fulfil the duty of searching the (majority non-Jewish) workers at the end of each day, as he was pained by the discomfort and humilation, such searches would cause.

The overwhelming majority of Jews supportive of the current military action, are saddened by the deaths of innocent Gazans. Unlike some we value life, and find no glory in death.

I said I’m NOT jewish, Mark.

Oh I see.

Because you’re not jewish, you can make racist remarks about jews while not being racist.

That makes sense.

“The overwhelming majority of Jews supportive of the current military action, are saddened by the deaths of innocent Gazans. Unlike some we value life, and find no glory in death.”.

Oh well then. That’s that.

Poor suffering jews. It hurts to steal and murder.

Sorry Yosi, UK – there I go forgetting again.

If I was jewish though – I’d like to be Yossi Benayoun.

Now there’s a good jew…..

Marky baby! Close – but not quite there, son.

If I WAS jewish I could make racist remarks, and I could even make up ridiculous stories about muslims and arabs – while officially not being a racist!

Boy I wish I was jewish…..

What do you think of Beckham, stevieb? We might as well establish the extent of your racism.

I would actually welcome giving Hamas their own country to run however they see fit. You could probably see the flames from space.

He’s manc scum.

Naaa – he’s alright, I guess. Bit of a poof, but he can cross the ball decent-like.

Why? Is he jewish?

Mark Thompson

“Your lies do not change the truth – the zionists are evil murdering scum and you are their supporters.”

I think this line sums you up. it is quite clear to most people that zionism is a political ideology and that anybody can be a zionist. By calling people on this blog ‘their supporters’ you clearly do not mean zionist, what you actually mean is: (israeli?) jews!

Maternal grandfather, I believe.

I said they were smart – how does that make me a racist?

Hold on.

Your telling me zionists aren’t jewish?

Well I’ll be f***d.

Who would ‘ave thought?

Why would anybody want to hurt little old me?

I said jews were smart!

Of course Hamas is not an innocent party. However Israel is not either, but you will not hear much criticism of Israel here. I was wondering if there is an acceptable ratio of Israeli civilians killed to Palestinian and Arabs killed? Gene and co shrugged when thousands were killed when Israel invaded the Lebanon; now there are around three hundred killed. It seems an Israeli life is worth multiple Palestinian lives. However, presumably, there must be a limit at which even hardened nationalists like Gene’s eyes water. What is the number?

Michael Rosen

And as you rattle your weaponry and (nuclear warheads too perhaps?), you might pause for a moment and consider the total in dollars, arms advice, interest free loans etc received by Israel, in the last, say, forty years, from the most advanced military power in the world? ARe you sure it’s just Israel that’s been winning? All on its own? Really?

What about Egypt? Who funds them to the tune of 2 squillion dollars per year hmmmm? What about Saudi and Kuwait and UAE and and and…where do they get their arms from? More to the point, where did Hamas get the know-how to design the primitive ‘thunder sticks’ they call Qassams hmmm? PRC/Soviets that’s who…you’re not a red are Michael?

When Israel is at war, Gene can be relied upon, as a nationalist propagandist, to spearhead the online efforts. Blame everything on the enemy, and avoid any dispassionate analysis. Yes, Hamas is awful, but no analysis of the deeper issues of the conflict, no criticism of Israel, and the fact that – shock, horror – Israel can be responsible for atrocities too. Instead we get unalloyed statism. Nationalists always glorify the state and the military machines during war, particularly. Gene’s hero Orwell was always critical of nationalism, and I am sure Gene generally is too – but he will make an exception for himself as regards Israel. Unfortunately, though, the same rules apply, and I wouldn’t trust an Israeli nationalist for a balanced analysis of the situation, and nor would I trust a Hamas zealot for one either.

this operation is going to continue for a while now, probably will include ground forces and alot more death and destruction, I can’t see how any of it could really be avoided

Benjamin, are you saying that only an “Israeli nationalist” would support the current military action in Gaza?

He’s manc scum.

Wrong again:he’s from London.

Benjamin -

Wrong thread, old chap.

Benjamin
29 December 2008, 12:15 am

Of course Hamas is not an innocent party. However Israel is not either, but you will not hear much criticism of Israel here. I was wondering if there is an acceptable ratio of Israeli civilians killed to Palestinian and Arabs killed? Gene and co shrugged when thousands were killed when Israel invaded the Lebanon; now there are around three hundred killed. It seems an Israeli life is worth multiple Palestinian lives. However, presumably, there must be a limit at which even hardened nationalists like Gene’s eyes water. What is the number?

Well that really depends on whether these arabs are civillians or militants/terrorists. I’ll answer the question for both.

CIVILLIANS: 1:0. I would never, ever support Israel (or any other country) that deliberately targeted civillians in a military campaign.

TERRORIST: 1 israeli: ‘infinity’ terrorists. I believe that peace will only enuse when Hamas are gone. Because of their deep religious beliefs (which they are more than entitled to hold) they are opposing their ‘allah’ and his supposed wishes on israel and the palestinians. They can ideologically never accept anything but a muslim state over all of palestine and as such can never compromise. Of course nobody should be killed for their religious beliefs, so why would i support the killing of Hamas? Because they target, and have only ever targetted (well, most of the time) civillians. They blew themselves up in pizza parlours and at wedding receptions. They lob rockets in a bizarre form of defence. They do not target the many security/arm enclaves that a premanently based on the gaza border, they aim their rockets deliberately at civillian centres! They deserve to die ad infinitum….

Unless, stevieb is a fan of Stevie G in which case he’ll always be manc scum. It’s a tribal football thing.

Also note in Lebanon. Of the 1100 that were killed, it estimated that between 600-1000 were hizbollah fighters….

Benjamin “When Israel is at war, Gene can be relied upon, as a nationalist propagandist, to spearhead the online efforts. Blame everything on the enemy, and avoid any dispassionate analysis…”

Is this what this is, a “dispassionate analysis,” or a lame excuse for Israel bashing yet again.

Benjy, I prefer open antisemites to stealth ones like you.

“Wrong again:he’s from London.”

And he has no firewall or online security software. Night-night stevie.

Toby,

Ah, I was wondering when I was going to be called an antisemite for suggesting that the Israeli state might warrant a bit of criticism.

Benjamin, are you saying that only an “Israeli nationalist” would support the current military action in Gaza?

No, but the more nationalist they are, the more blind they will be in support of it.

The reaction may appear to some as disproportionate, given the death toll.

But the context is one of assymetry.

Hamas, as someone else has already noted, thrives on misery and chaos.

For Israel, the rocket attacks threaten the very life of the state, even though for the moment the death toll is quite small. It is what it presages for the future, that is the real weapon of Hamas. If they can extend rocket terror to the whole of Israel then Israel’s culture and economy will be effectively eradicated.

Were Israel to respond “proportionately” in terms of human life on an eye for an eye basis, then Hamas would fear nothing. What is one or two deaths to them? What economic acitivity can Gaza boast apart from living on handouts, smuggling in contraband and making rockets?
So why should they fear economic damage.

The only thing Hamas fears is the death of its activists. That is what Israel is trying to bring about. Are they succeeding? I have no idea but it is clear that Hamas hides among the civilian population.

One has to ask the question why such a large bombing campaign have never taken place before, even when Hamas suicide bombers were blowing up bus loads of kids on a regular basis. The scale of this thing just doesn’t sit right, whatever you want to call it.

Is it just about launching a huge attack that kills all the birds before Obama gets in, when they may not have so much rope? Something is going on.

Mike, because back then, Israel had troops on the ground that could deal with the bombers and those who send them. Obviously, in Gaza the situation is different today.

For Israel, the rocket attacks threaten the very life of the state

Well, that’s absurd. Is Israel a very weak nation, or is it a relatively strong nation, with strong defences, and a modern economy? I think it is the latter. If that is the case is the very life of the state threatened by primitive rockets? Well of course not.

It’s slightly bizarre how some folk like to have it both ways. They pretend Israel is like a weak little Haiti when primitive rockets are fired at it, and then support an offensive by one of the most modern strike forces in the world.

Hamas and co should cease firing rockets into Israel. These rockets terrorise, and can take life and cause damage. But don’t pretend these rockets are anything but primitive weaponry by modern standards (i.e. the standards of the Israeli military).

What economic acitivity can Gaza boast apart from living on handouts, smuggling in contraband and making rockets?…

The only thing Hamas fears is the death of its activists. That is what Israel is trying to bring about.

Can you imagine what happens when Israel “targets” Hamas “activists” in a densely populated area with high poverty rates, many welfare recipients, where Hamas is an element of not only security but welfare and social services? You are basically talking about the killing of the civilian population – which can then be labeled as Hamas “activists”.

It seems that civilians are being targeted for the “crime” of supporting Hamas, even when they were invited to do so in an election sponsored by the US government, and in a situation where Hamas is involved in welfare and networking, crucial to survive in a poor country.

RE: It seems that civilians are being targeted for the “crime” of supporting Hamas, even when they were invited to do so in an election sponsored by the US government, and in a situation where Hamas is involved in welfare and networking, crucial to survive in a poor country.

yes, benji, too bad those pesky rockets make a total hash out of your basic premise.

Well, they don’t. The point is, Hamas is more than simply a regular army. If all Hamas members were simply soldiers in combat with Israel, then the situation would be more straightforward. However, what appears to be advocated here is the killing of any Hamas member, including civilians. This is an extreme position. After all, even during the Second World War, when the Nazis were killing millions of Jews, and threatened sovereign nations, not many seriously advocated the deliberate slaughter of any German Nazi party member, including civilians, and not many advocate that in retrospect.

To the starving Gaza crowd:

Yes, there is misery in gaza and no, it’s not fun being bombarded. But here is a great description of what I imagine some of you guys are like–and it has a wonderful photo too!

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/tony-blairs-sister-in-laws-gaza-media-show/

Regards,

Inna

“If all Hamas members were simply soldiers in combat with Israel, then the situation would be more straightforward.”

Are you saying they’re not after the Hamas Government of Gaza said they are?

Are you an official Hamas spokesman, by chance?

Regards,

Inna

I was wondering if there is an acceptable ratio of Israeli civilians killed to Palestinian and Arabs killed? Gene and co shrugged when thousands were killed when Israel invaded the Lebanon; now there are around three hundred killed. It seems an Israeli life is worth multiple Palestinian lives. However, presumably, there must be a limit at which even hardened nationalists like Gene’s eyes water. What is the number?

233,256,878?

Now, we MUST always have proportionality, anti-Israel people INSIST on it. So, its an easy number to work out (I only took a guess). All you do is divide the number of Arabs by 5.7m jews in Israel, multiply by the number of Israeli deaths and you got some sort of answer.

My guess is that the number of Palestinians killed is WELL under the proportional ratio. Anyone know the number of Arabs in the ME?

Maven

A bizarre demographic calculation appearing to justify, or at least downplay, the continued killing of arabs. What does that remind me of?

I didn’t mean to provoke you that much, old boy, but if you do have such thoughts I suggest you keep them under your hat, if only for cosmetic reasons.

If proportionality is what they want then simply lob 4000 unguided missiles randomly into densely populated urban centers in Gaza.

Maven

“How you feeling now “Free Palestine” to know that you will only be free under Israel’s terms and neither you or your pals can do a damn thing about it. (as evidence ever since 1922 when every Arab attack ended up a disaster for Arabs)”

Which is why Israel will never be able to live in peace -until the Palestinians have a just solution not one based on Israels terms, Until then Israel will never be accepted in the region no matter how shiny its hardware and will ever be a nation under siege not a normal one. The Arabs are weak now; but they wont always be. History fluctuates and is not on Israels side.

What are their other options? Moving to a new neighbourhood?

Fabien from Israel

“And the killing of over 200 people”

“How many of those 200 would have no problem beheading you for being an infidel?”

When it doubt resort to extreme anti-Muslim hatred.
There are many non-Muslims in Gaza (aid workers etc) many of whom have been killed in the current slaughter. But I guess they deserved it for daring to feed “the Palestinians”

The UN has reported that the number of civilian deaths is put at 51. Obviously 51 too many but when you are dealing with an enemy which says to you “We value death while you value life” one can clearly see where the blame is for innocent bloodshed. No one in Israel whether from the right or the left glorifies in the death of innocents even when those innocents are incalcated from an early age to hate Jews and the latest deaths are a moment for quiet reflection. However Israel will maintain and even strengthen its attacks over the next few days until it silences the rockets. The people of Gaza now have a choice as they had when they voted in Hamas which has led them down this path and that is to distance themselves from this fanatical fascist suicidal terrorist organisation and choose peace.

When it doubt resort to extreme anti-Muslim hatred.: HPHypocrite.

Some 60 of the nearly 200 killed in the Mumbai attacks were Muslims. Would you please explain to the Jihadists that their murderous gesture was islamophobic to the extreme.

But I guess they deserved it for daring to feed “the Palestinians”

Isn’t it about time these worthless, lazy thespians learned to feed themselves?

In fact, isn’t it about time the entire islamic world got off its fat lazy butt and learned to feed itself?

Not gratuitously destroying high-tech greenhouses worth millions would be a good start.

This is the ‘moderate, westernised Turkey’ we are supposed to accept into the EU, right?

Yep.

Turkish membership of the EU spells the end of the UK as we know it.

Not just the UK, but all of Europe, as well.

It’s amazing how people can through history right out the window and hand over everything their ancestors faught for to an enemy that has been trying to 1300 years to do you in.

Outside of the veneer of westernisation one sees in Istanbul and a few other large urban centres, Turkey is as backward as Waziristan.

And just as anti-semitic.

Hamas thrives on misery? As if it was Hamas and not the Israelis starving Gaza!!

Hamas willfully starves Palestinains for that little touch of theatrical flourish.

More and more people are seeing that, and, believe it or not, some aid groups are even starting to point it out.

Hamas oppresses its own people, and will even kill a few, just to demonise Israel in the eyes of the international community.

RE: Benji’s following comment: “what appears to be advocated here is the killing of any Hamas member, including civilians. This is an extreme position. After all, even during the Second World War, when the Nazis were killing millions of Jews, and threatened sovereign nations, not many seriously advocated the deliberate slaughter of any German Nazi party member, including civilians…”

This is what happens when you live in a theoretical world instead of the real one. The Israelis may — though i doubt it — advocate killing ALL Hamas members, whether “civilian” or military, whereas the Allies in WWII may not have advocated murdering any Nazi, civilian or otherwise.

In practice, though, Israel appears to be taking measures to at least minimize civilian casualties (under difficult circumstances at that, given that rocket launch pads are housed in civilian neighborhoods). Contrast that with the actions of the Allies during WWII, where hundreds of thousands of civilians, nazi or not, were killed in indiscriminate bombing of cities such as Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin and countless others.

So Benji, get your theoretical head out of your theoretical ass and try living here in the real world for a change. You’re starting to sound like Hasbara Buster, who talks without any sense of irony about how Jews have all these theoretical rights in Jordan, even though by his own account there are 0 Jews in Jordan.

Yes how predictable to protest against the slaughter of some 350 people, at the time of writing, by cowards in planes. But I guess there are some scum on this list who will condemn ’suicide’ bombings whilst applauding the latest butchery.

And they bombed the Islamic University to rubble too. I trust that those for whom ‘academic freedom’ means the freedom of the settler universities in Israel won’t protest too much when the Academic Boycott campaign highlights the silence of Israel’s academia, if not complicity, in the latest Nazi style attacks by the IDF.

Could some of you give a tutorial on the Palestine Israeli issue and settlements?

Hamas seems to justify its attacks on Israel not based on what Israel is doing in Gaza–Israel has withdrawn from Gaza after all–but based on Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Perhaps 44 out of 120 settlements in the West Bank might include land confiscated from Palestinian private land owners. The Palestinians might have been paid a lower than fair market price for their land.

I would like to ask: “When Israelis confiscate Palestinian private property in the West Bank, do they pay less than fair market prices for the land they confiscate? Do the Israelis use some ‘eminent domain’ laws under the Israeli legal code to confiscate land? If not, what legal provision to the Israelis use (putting aside the issue of whether it is legal to use Israeli civil law in the occupied west bank)? Do Palestinian private land owners sue the Israeli government in Israeli courts for confiscating their land paying less than fair prices for the land they confiscate? What is the status of these lawsuits?”

Any answers would be much appreciated.

Just a wild thought. If Israel issued a thirty year bond worth $20 billion and gave all the proceeds form the bond sale to the Palestinians, would that help ameliorate the Israeli Palestinian issue? Or is this just another naive and impractical American like idea.

Hello. And Bye. :)