Harry's Place

I can’t decide which will be worse, if HP’s uberleftist commenters, Rosen etc. ignore this post because they don’t have any valid counterargument, or if they blather at length because they don’t have any valid counterargument.

Soon they will run out of the well-worn analogies to Hitler, and then what?

And in the same article…

The Nazis were firing the one weapon they had that could reach England, that could cause their enemy pain, and that weapon was ineffective because the Germans were already weak and were losing the war. What would have been a proportionate Allied response?

1,500???

BBC and police say 700 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7802078.stm

I’m all for people holding rallies for peace but if people criticise ‘the Israelis’ for using violence then they must also protest about the use of violence by ‘the Palesinians’.

Also there is a lot of talk of the ‘disproportionate’ use of force, but proportionate to what? Considering the range of weaponry available to Israel from nuclear weapons down then Israel has been selective in its response whilst Hamas will inevitably use every weapon in its arsenal to kill as many Israelis as possible.

If there is an analogy to be made to the second world war here, [...] A more accurate analogy is the ferocious Allied assault on German in the final months of the war when the Germans were much weakened.

Alternatively we could forgo with the whole trying to express events as a simple algebraic equation in which both sides balance each other. At the very least, desist with WWII analogies: there will be imperfections, of course, but I would have thought that the various uprisings/emergencies in British-controlled Ireland would be less inappropriate as far as the territorial conflict is concerned.

Before I’m accused of equating Hamas with the I.R.A., the Nazis did not want to kill every inhabitant of Allied nations.

The USA killed more Japanese than the Japanese killed Americans.

The British killed more Germans than the Germans killed Britons.

By the equations of these leftist, islamist nutters, The UK was the agressor in ww2 and America the agressor in the Pacific War.

Had Israel used a ‘proportional’ response then many thousands of Palestinians, and mostly civilians would have been killed by the 5,000 missiles returned by Israel into Gaza.

It would seem that 80% of the deaths were Hamas. Probably most casualties are civilians who would be hit by shrapnel from exploding compounds.

I wonder how we factor that if Israel explodes a bomb factory and because of its placement in a civilian area so mostly civilians get killed gets played. Surely these are 100% the responsibility of Hamas who have also had work accidents that killed civilians.

@Alec: no, not all of them – only Jews, gays and commies. Just like certain Middle Eastern “liberation” movements.

Great post Eric.

Also when people criticise ‘the Israelis’ for causing civillian deaths, which it inevitably has, the same people should equally criticise ‘the Paletinians’ for firing rockets which killed people on, er, the Gaza Strip on 26 December

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081226/wl_nm/us_palestinians_israel_rocket

@Maven: by the equation of these leftists, UK and USA *were* the aggressors. Haven’t you noticed the not-so-recent growth in popularity of revisionist WWII history in “leftist” circles? The Pearl Harbour conspiracy theorists? It’s not just rightwing nutters anymore…

Answer this though: why are a few racist squatters in Hebron “utter, utter scum” according to this website, but an Israeli government that kills 300, umm, not?

The blame for every one dead in Gaza lies with the fools who perpetrated the pull-out.

Eugenio, that’s why I specified the territorial aspect.

I’ve always thought one of the main reasons for people on “the Left” in Britain being more vocal in criticism of Israel than – as Eric suggests – Algeria during its civil war, is because they live in a country that has provided significant material and diplomatic support for Israel and had a crucial role in the establishment of the Israeli state. People don’t come out onto the streets or mount political campaigns based solely on abstract moral principles, they do it when they feel they have a stake in something, don’t they?

Nice to see a few thoughtful posts on Israel here for once – perhaps Gene and David T could hand over to Eric and Alex for the duration of this war? Would make a change from trying to get academics and journalists sacked, no?

Just as the Palestinians have become addicted to death so have the far left become addicted to hatred of Israel. The photos coming out of Gaza are like pornography to them, feeding a stoking this insatiable desire for outrage ( however selective that outrage may be ).

Personally I think we should give everyone on the protest marches a chance to go to Gaza and fight the Israeli’s to prove the extent of their outrage and depth of their convictions.

Any takers ???? Don’t all rush at once.

Personally I think we should give everyone on the protest marches a chance to go to Gaza and fight the Israeli’s to prove the extent of their outrage and depth of their convictions.

You remind me of the death of Tom Hurndall. He was one of the original Human Shields in Iraq but apparently thrown out for refusing to be one.

Then he was killed in Gaza by an Israeli sniper, being a Human Shield.

Remember Shaykh Ali bin Awad al-Qarni? He was a member of the 26 clerics who legitimised attacks on coalition forces in Iraq at the start of the war as signatories to a joint fatwa condemning the occupation. Yesterday, he issued another call for violence: against the Israeli ‘forces of occupation’. Below is his interview with IslamOnline.net:

“A deeper wound must be inflicted on them than that inflicted on our brothers…I take responsibility for this fatwa in front of Allah.”

Awad al-Qarni: spill Israeli blood everywhere

The Shaykh speaks about the Arab conspiracy complicit in today’s massacre

The Islamic intellectual, Shaykh Dr Awad al-Qarni, issued a fatwa with the Israeli interests all over the Islamic World in mind, in response to the carnage caused by the occupation on Saturday in the Gaza Strip, which has so far resulted in the martyrdom of 225 Palestinians and injured more than 700 others.

Al-Qarni called for the new US administration to do the arithmetic with regard to its relations with Muslims, pointing to the existence of an ‘Arab conspiracy’, which had contributed to the Zionists audacity in carrying out these massacres.

Dr al-Qarni said in his fatwa: “I am issuing this legitimate fatwa concerning the Israeli interests and everyone who has a connection with Israel, that they are a legitimate target for Muslims anywhere in the Islamic World; and that they should pay for the protection of the Muslims as their inferiors; those who have power over those who are equal to them.

He continued, in remarks made to IslamOnline.net: “The only way to realise the meaning of a unified message and unity of purpose is with these actions…they (the Israelis) must become targets. Their blood must be shed like the blood of our brothers in Palestine, and a deeper wound must be inflicted on them than that inflicted on our brothers,” adding that “I take responsibility for this fatwa in front of God Almighty.”

Arab Conspiracy

Al-Qarni stressed that, “Were it not for the passivity and involvement of some Arab governments, the Zionists would not have the courage to carry out this massacre.”

He said: “The fact that the enemy Foreign Minister, Tzipi Livni, was welcomed with open arms by Egyptian officials in front of the cameras on her visit to Egypt a few days ago, and despite her assurance that the situation in Gaza would change, there was no response from the Egyptian officials: this part of the conspiracy.”

He added: “And for Egypt to strengthen the security measures on its borders to prevent the Palestinians crossing into Egypt – according to the Egyptian media – is further evidence of the conspiracy.

And al-Qarni attacked the United States over its silence concerning the Israeli massacre, saying: “Washington’s support and calm in the face of the Israeli carnage will destroy the future of mankind, as well as relations between Muslims and the West.”

He told the new US administration that: “The real interests of America lie with the billion Muslims…your loss does not come from disaster and misfortune, but from your tyranny and your support for evil…wake up from your neglectfulness and return back to humanity, and know that your days are numbered.”

Shakyh al-Qarni, who is considered as one of the most prominent Islamic personalities in Saudi Arabia, was arrested and lost his tenure as a professor of the principles of Islamic jurisprudence (أصول الفقه) for his submission, along with a group of Saudi clerics, of an advisory memorandum to the late King Fahd bin Abdul Aziz in the early nineties concerning the finalisation of the country’s reform process.

How so, Cornet? Nearly three decades of colonial policy was arguably an attempt to back-pedal on the words of that blabber-mouth Balfour. “We”, after all, left following an insurgency, at which point British officers were more likely to switch to Arab nations. See the disgusting Glubb Pasha, and shelling of Jerusalem residential areas, no less, which could be compared to current events.

None of the current opponents have any direct involvement in the founding of Israel. Their “stake” is 100% affectation. A very simple element of moral philosophy is that a position is taken based on the particulars, and not a value-judgement at how it sates one’s conscience. If a worse situation is occurring in the Congo Basin or Indian Sub-Continent, it should be opposed. Unless, that is, you’re a moral pervert.

And, on the terms you have declared, I assume you’d minimize any agreement with you from a Frenchie or Spaniard on account of their nations not having provided similar levels of “material and diplomatic support for Israel and had a crucial role in the establishment of the Israeli state”. Right?

Right?

No, of course not. Funny that.

Not to mention the fact that modern Zionism pre-dates “our” arrival by many decades. But it all boils down to divining a connexion so we can then beg forgiveness, eh?

well argued post, I disagree with a few points but asking why is a good question, Coatsey does it here:

“Wrong Skin Colour?

I post on this for one simple reason: the Israeli attack on Gaza, wholly unjustified, will obscure the far greater war crimes being carried out by the Sudanese Islamicists against the people of Darfur. The janjaweed militas can be compared to the Hutu murderers, and indeed to Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge.

I realise that for a certain type of European the dislike of Israel is paramount. For all Islamicists it is an article of faith that the Tel Aviv State is a monstrous aberration that must be wiped from the map. For certain leftists, to their shame, ‘Zionism’ is a word describing some kind of nest of conspiracies.

I have only the words on this clavier to condemn the killings in Gaza.

Would that a few more would do something to alleviate the suffering of the people of Darfur.

But they are black, and perhaps count for little.”

http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/darfur-the-easily-forgotten-war/

I find the tone of James Naughtie’s questioning of Israeli spokespeople quite nauseating. Their is no doubting the high moralistic dugeon he is in (and enjoying). He claims he asks Hamas about their attacks on Israel but I don’t recall him adopting a similar tone with their representatives.

He’s a son of the Left (lapsing into using the plural pronoun when referring to the Labour Party and what it had to do to win the next election). Is that enough? Or is there something going on in the background? An anti-semitic education at the hands of Priests or a Calvinistic disdain for those perceived as deniers of the gospel? Or is it just the “we-think” of the London dinner party circuit.

“He’s a son of the Left (lapsing into using the plural pronoun when referring to the Labour Party and what it had to do to win the next election). Is that enough? Or is there something going on in the background? An anti-semitic education at the hands of Priests or a Calvinistic disdain for those perceived as deniers of the gospel? Or is it just the “we-think” of the London dinner party circuit.”

Or, you know, he’s doing his job as a journalist and being sceptical about “spokespeople” for governments? But yeah, I’m sure you’re right, it’s definetly got something to do with Calvinism, that seems the most plausible explanation…

@Alec, thanks, no need to sound so alarmed! I’m not attacking Eric’s post above and I haven’t come on here to join either of the two camps of commenters that spit venom at each other here most of the time.

I’m not suggesting that Israel is some sort of neo-colonial outpost, or sinister Western plot to subjugate the Arab world (which I think you’re assuming). Rather, that while one may choose to “oppose” any number of things, what actually motivates people to take action – attend a protest rally, for example – is the feeling that your action might actually have some effect on the situation. As western Europe in general has strong cultural and political links with Israel, I imagine the situation in France and Spain would be similar.

Finally, this:

None of the current opponents have any direct involvement in the founding of Israel. Their “stake” is 100% affectation.

No Israeli citizen born after the state was founded has “any direct involvement in the founding of Israel”, surely? That wouldn’t make their stake in the conflict an “affectation”. Right?

Well we could fire 4000 rockets randomly into densely populated areas in Gaza. I’m all for that, if that will quiet down the proportionality fools. Or, if they don’t have 4000 rockets to spare in the IDF arsenal, just randomly drop 4000 bombs. It really doesn’t matter where, just on someone’s heads.

I’d agree with Eric that many are fixated on Israel’s very existence in ways that they wouldn’t even consider with other nations.

As for “the Left” I think he’s too sweeping.

Granted many of the most vicious “anti-Zionists” will be outside of the Israeli Embassy screaming blue murder, without even pondering the location of the Sudanese or China Embassies (complicit in the murder of 100,000s of Darfurians), but whilst they are vocal I am not sure how representative they are

Sure enough you can read posters on SU blog talking about “60 years of occupation of Palestine. see http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3228

having said all of that, are these “Anti-Zionists” are loud? sure, in the public eye? certainly

but I suspect it is more related to the rantings of ex-students and those around the fringes of the SWP, than being truly representative of the British Left.

Or, you know, he’s doing his job as a journalist and being sceptical about “spokespeople” for governments?

Of course Hamas wields no governmental power at all in the Gaza Strip so it is only right that Naughtie’s questioning should be gentle and respectful. Just as he is sceptical about the ruling party in Britain, or “us” as he prefers to call them.

So because Arab dictators have slaughetered their citizens this gives others the right to do otherwise. Open season-lets see who can kill the most Arabs. You are one sick puppy

Far more Jews have been killed in Israel by fellow Jews than by Palestinians- that would justify in your eyes others killing Jews since “the jews themselves do it”

“The mainstream, moderate Left is not nearly so critical of Israel. Unlike the hysterical anti-Israel demonstrators with their banners about the “Holocaust” in Gaza, this Left is mostly concerned about “proportionality”. ”

An Israeli minister a few months back spoke of bringing a holocaust to the Palestinians so its hardly hysterical is it?

“If there is an analogy to be made to the second world war here, it’s not the usual Leftist view of Jews turned into Nazis, inflicting genocide on weak and innocent Palestinians.
A more accurate analogy is the ferocious Allied assault on German in the final months of the war when the Germans were much weakened.”

Except Israel is occupying Palestinian land not vice versa much as the Germans were occupying others lands

“It’s not the victims – no one cares about the victims. It’s who’s doing the killing that matters. What infuriates much of the Left is that Israel is using a tiny fraction of its military power to try to restrain its enemy from firing rockets against Israeli civilians.”

Yet zionists constantly tell us that Israel is a vulnerable state ever posed to be wiped out by the Arabs -which is it?

“Israel is defending itself against an uncompromising fascist enemy, ”

Which had agreed to a ceasefire and supports the Saudi peace plan
-your harking back to the Hamas covenant is thus bull.
And since when is defening yourself against invaders “fascism”

IMPORTANT:

BBC showed “315 Palestinians killed”. The studio reporter questioned Ron Prosor with agressive indignation. “With over 300 Palestinian deaths this is sure disproportional” – later he says “When will this end, When the death toll rises to a certain point” – another BBC Useful Idiot cunt!

Sigh, I get tired of tirades that can be condensed to “I’m too stupid to follow the points raised and understand the argument therefore I will invent a new meaning and assume that you are all moral monsters and I alone am human.”

HPhypocrite
29 December 2008, 1:40 pm

“So because Arab dictators have slaughetered their citizens this gives others the right to do otherwise. Open season-lets see who can kill the most Arabs. You are one sick puppy”

Until people like this moron can actually read, indulge brain and respond intelligently to a piece like this then the cause is truly hopeless.

Whoever this HPBNP/Hypocrite etc is he/she may as well be a stooge of the very governement and state he claims to hate so much.

Perhaps he/she is. Either way, as long as people genuinely think and write like this moron then progress will be very slow and very painful.

MattG

Josh

Evidently we both sighed at roughly the same time ;-0.

You don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

MattG

If Israel wanted to carry out the final solution it could, so the fact it has not shows it does not want?

Have you not heard of political considerations? Maybe they do not thinkthe poltiical price is worth paying when they can manipulate the situation to carry out their genocide over a period of time and make it appear like self-defence. this is not a new trick.

still though there is a chance that the fascistic actions of Israel will disrupt the order of the collaborationsit Arab regimes which surround and protect the apartheid state. the contradictions of global capitalism are growing as a whole through this crisis and this includes the Arab world, leading to possible revolutions, which will hopefully see the Israeli repressors brought to popular justice. Hanging like Mussolini, I am thinking.

Yeah yeah, all those empire’s which fell thought they were invincible, laugh if you want, I’ll enjoy watching you burn, right-wing assholes. I used to think that this site in some sense appealed to progressive sectors, and I was sometimes a little troubled by your criticisms, wondering how to convince the critic. But now the situation has become pleasingly clear: anyone who makes apologies for the Israeli mass murder (which includes the 3 year state of seige) of the Gazans, isjust classic fascist scum whod eserves the same treatment as any of their kind: against the wall.

“Some editorial writer somewhere has surely already used the expression “final solution” to describe what Israel is trying to do”

Dear oh dear…..

Ah yes, the de rigueur post condemning lefties that oppose this latest futile military operation as not proper lefties, not the decent left. Ah yes, the Decent Left. One can always tell the Decents by the staw men, exaggerations, absurdo ad reductum and strained rhetoric that cloud every screed, and Eric Lee’s is no exception. For example, and its one of many, what are we supposed to make of this:

or even that darling of the Left, Saddam Hussein.

Not only did the left stand up to Saddam outside of Iraq, but they did inside of it too. If some on the left were somehow “darlings” of Saddam for not supporting the invasion, tell that to the numerous lefties in Iraq who opposed Saddam but also disagreed with the US invasion.

“Let’s see – an effective one might be to compare it to that much larger massacre of Muslims, the one that took place back in 1982. Ten thousand dead, maybe double that number.

I’m referring to Hafez al-Assad’s slaughter of his Muslim Brotherhood opponents in Hama. You will be forgiven if you thought I was referring to something Israel did in Lebanon.”

Israel slaughetered about 20,000 in Lebanon in 1982 ;about the same number killed by Assad in Hama

So because Arab dictators have slaughetered their citizens this gives others the right to do otherwise. Open season-lets see who can kill the most Arabs. You are one sick puppy

Woof! Woof! You fucking idiot.

Muslims can kill countless other Muslims as though their lives hadn’t the value of a dog, but the moment even one Muslim is killed in an act of self defense by Israel, that death then becomes a ‘genocide’.

The planet is getting tired and quite annoyed by the all the contrived histrionics of the Arabo/Muslim world, a ridiculous, backward parasitic world that cannot even feed itself, and which creates, generates, invents, produces absolutely nothing

As far as I’m concerned, Hamas/Gaza/The Palestinian ‘Cause’ can all go to hell.

The Islamic intellectual, Shaykh Dr Awad al-Qarni, issued a fatwa.

It is against the law to employ the term “intellectual” or “Dr” in the same sentence as “islamic fatwa”.

This worthless, rancid savage should be punished for exhorting people to commit acts of mass murder.

“Or, you know, he’s doing his job as a journalist and being sceptical about “spokespeople” for governments? But yeah, I’m sure you’re right, it’s definetly got something to do with Calvinism, that seems the most plausible explanation…” – Callum 1:16 pm

I concur with your (diversionary) sarcasm about the Calvinists – and I think the same can be said about priests fiddling with Naughtie boy’s mind – but you know full well that the import of field’s comment was that Naughtie adopts an aggressive tone for an Israeli spokesman and a bleeding-heart-sympathetic tone for a Hamas spokesman. If he was doing his job as a BBC journalist he would treat both sides with the same amount of skepticism/aggression/bleeding-heart-sympathy. Get it?

The problem is :

When muslims kill muslims : ok
When muslims kill nonbelivers : ok
When muslims are killed by non belivers : Hell breaks lose

John P;

Muslims killed by other Muslims aren’t as dead as Muslims killed by non-Muslims.

Cornet (or is it George?), you asserted that individuals born decades after the founding of Israel – which was not nearly as a stated or sought aim of British policy as you claim – have an imperative and reasonable moral justification for concentrating on her deeds when worse conflicts are in progress.

By all means, let individuals pointedly disregard more serious situations. It’s just that they cannot claim to be taking a moral position.

I’m not suggesting that Israel is some sort of neo-colonial outpost, or sinister Western plot to subjugate the Arab world (which I think you’re assuming).

Er, no I’m not. What did you think I meant when I suggested colonial policy up to 1947/8 had been more to prevent a Jewish state, and that senior military officers then volunteered to assist the Arab armies?

As western Europe in general has strong cultural and political links with Israel, I imagine the situation in France and Spain would be similar.

That’s not what you said. You said diplomatic and material assistance in setting-up the state. Furthermore, Spain has had diplomatic assistance only since 1986.

No Israeli citizen born after the state was founded has “any direct involvement in the founding of Israel”, surely? That wouldn’t make their stake in the conflict an “affectation”. Right?

And I’m the Queen of Sheba. This is such a piece of reconstituted bolloxs and wilful mis-reading of my comment that I am having looking at it for long enough to put a name to it’s patent dishonesty. Of course they have a stake in it, you twit, because, unlike lifestyle opponents in this country – apart from, that is, those who are at least 80 years old and were connected to the regional colonial service or – they live with the direct continuation of Israel’s founding.

Or is your next trick going to be to claim that no Palestinian born after 1948 has a stake or can be considered a refugee? I doubt it.

With your posting handle, I would have thought you’d be better to beg forgiveness from the Irish for the Cromwellian assault.

“The planet is getting tired and quite annoyed by the all the contrived histrionics of the Arabo/Muslim world”

What part of the “planet”?

My guess: the interior of the USA, southern England, Israel, and maybe some parts of France. Traditional homes of hard line racists and rightwingers.

Most of the planet is getting more tired of Israel and US imperialism. But tired is not the word. “Sick” is the word, and correct, because it implies strong and violent reactions as a result of an accumulation of disgust. Just what is happening and what will happen more and more in the near future.

What a proposterous post. You can’t justify what is happening based on something that happened in 1982 or even something happening today in Sudan. One crime doesn’t justify another, and to raise this issue now – the day Israel has killed, and is killing large numbers of Gazans – shows some very transparent motives. Look away. Don’t talk about this.

Of course Israel doesn’t want to slaughter as many people as possible – that would be a PR nightmare. As someone put it here “What Israel has to watch out for is the level of force it applies. There is a very fine line of diminishing returns when it comes to application of massive military force against guerrilla organisations that operate among civilians. This is especially true when it comes to Hamas, which has become expert at using its own population as a human shield. Any excess on Israel’s part could turn the recent fighting into a Hamas PR victory.” But what is equally clear is that Israel has no interest in making meaningful peace with the Palestinians.

Most of the planet is getting more tired of Israel and US imperialism.

This will come as a surprise to the greater part of the planet living in places like the Chinese and Indian urban masses or hinterlands, African townships and South American barrios. I suspect you mean a proportion of a few percentage points with some degree of affluence and time to concentrate on external affairs.

You get some weird right-wing weirdos who think they’re on the left, these days.

Granted many of the most vicious “anti-Zionists” will be outside of the Israeli Embassy screaming blue murder, without even pondering the location of the Sudanese or China Embassies (complicit in the murder of 100,000s of Darfurians)

Yes, they don’t say a word about Darfur — just like neither you nor any of the bloggers you cite have ever uttered a word about the Second Congo War, in which 5.4 million people died and the Pygmies were hunted down like animals and eaten by a group called The Erasers, who had the final objective of clearing the land of Pygmies to open it up for mineral exploitation.

The only reason Israel supporters are interested in Darfur is because the perpetrators are Arab. You’re being just as selective in your horror as the leftists you criticize.

“He hit me and cried, and also went to complain before me”.

This Arabic proverb sums up Hamas in a nutshell (AKA “don’t start none, won’t be none”). Or from a different source, “Over Edom have I cast my shoe, all Philistia cries out at my triumph.”

La Mano del Diablo, has estado un chico muy travieso…

If Israel truly is embarking on a “masscre”, “holocaust”, “final solution”, they are doing a shit job at it

“This will come as a surprise to the greater part of the planet living in places like the Chinese and Indian urban masses or hinterlands, African townships and South American barrios. I suspect you mean a proportion of a few percentage points with some degree of affluence and time to concentrate on external affairs.

You get some weird right-wing weirdos who think they’re on the left, these days.”

The Indian countryside would be the place with a record growth in numbers of armed Maoists rebels and popular supprot for them? And the “South American barrios” which you know so well, would be the place where the far left is growing strongly in size, not to mention the bourgeois nationalist left?

Or didn’t you realise that both Venezuela and Bolivia have almost come to class war, while the rest of South America moves to the left and agaainst the US, with the poorest sectors being the most supportive of populism and economic nationalism, as well as increasingly the far left?

I can tell you for a fact that here in S America the only pro-US sectors are the rich. Sorry if you do not like the fact. I invite you to visit some time and walk around with a US flag, see how long before someone spits on you. Honest invitation.

as for China, there are 2000 workers on strike every day in China, which objectively clash with the western multinationals who depend on superexploited Chinese labour, and the US financial elite hwich built a whole boom on the disinflationary effects of 400 million Chinese workers. so I do not think that a demand for better working conditions and pay in China go hand in hand with the interests of western capitalism, do you?

Also I was not aware that the Chinese, Indian and South American masses were growing tired of the Palestinians “histrionics”? Or maybe you meant to correct our good friend “John P” also…?

La Mano del Diablo, has estado un chico muy travieso…

Has sido.

Mr Buster,

You are quite correct, it is a disgrace that the Dem Rep of Congo is not sufficiently called to account for these massacres. I hope you can divide your time equally between the DRC and Sudanese Embassies, with a little spare time for China re Tibet and perhaps Iran and Saudi Arabia for their persistent and lethal abuse of women and sexual and religious minorities. As you suggest, the activities of all of these states put Israel in the shade for killing a few hundred mostly combatants.

Or are you still outside the Israeli Embassy, because Jews defending themselves is more reprehensible than anything?

“La Mano del Diablo, has estado un chico muy travieso…

Has sido.”

I don’t think so Mr Buster, unless you think he is a perpetually naughty boy (in which case it would not be a past action but present and inherent i.e. “es un chico travieso”) as opposed to just having done something naughty…off topic of course.

This will come as a surprise to the greater part of the planet living in places like the Chinese and Indian urban masses or hinterlands, African townships and South American barrios.

Oh, you’ll be surprised, son. At a demo a while back in Hong Kong, graffiti appeared on the front of the American consulate, and in a poll the majority of the population (vast majority Chinese) were against the invasion of Iraq. What I detect is not anti-Americanism here, but a weariness of the militarism and a wariness of the US government (which currently has a poor image) – this within population that is generally moderate and pro-western.

Of course, in pro-democracy demos in Hong Kong, the PRC authorities get a rollicking, but that does not mean that the demonstrators are unalloyed fans of the USA, despite some actually receiving some education there. People have very mixed views.

Do the math. 300 deaths in a total population of 1.3 million in Gaza would be equivalent to about 80,000 in the U.S. in a single day. Percentage-wise, that’s the equivalent of 25 9/11’s. The fact that Eric Lee can ignore the *proportionality* reflects the deep racism of the Zionist-liberal mindset.

But it’s 300 Penny, 51 of which are civilians according to the UN, not 80,000 no matter what maths tricks you try and use

Over 5000 political prisoners were massacred in 1988 in the Islamic Republic. Did you see any demos by the UK Left outside the Iranian embassy?

Thousands of Muslims were killed in Chechnya by the Russians, did you see any demos outside the Russian embassy by the UK Left?

Thousands of civilians were gassed by Saddam in Halabjeh, did you see any protests by the UK Left?

The UK Left are the most hypocritical lefties I have ever come across. They have this illusion that if they turn up for Islamist rallies they will impress them so much that they will recruit from them and the Islamists will join their parties :)))))))))))))))))))))))

Do the math. 300 deaths in a total population of 1.3 million in Gaza would be equivalent to about 80,000 in the U.S. in a single day. Percentage-wise, that’s the equivalent of 25 9/11’s. The fact that Eric Lee can ignore the *proportionality* reflects the deep racism of the Zionist-liberal mindset.

Off-side and intellectually redundant.

Proportionality cannot be measured by the number killed. If you want to use this argument then clearly, when Israelis were killed in Jersualme Yeshiva then Israel was required to raid a madrassa and kill & would the same number of people. Maybe the proportionality was that they sprayed the same number of bullets into a room of the same number of people for the same amount of time and whatever the number of dead and casualties is the right “proportion”.

When Hamas sent 5,000 rockets into Israel did this mean that Israel could fire 5,000 back? Should Israel have calculated the number of civilians that could be reached by Hamas rockets, extrapolated it to the number of Gazans they could reach and send back 60,000 rockets as being the same number of proportional rockets.

I can bust “proportional” idiots like you all the time Penny. I don’t know why you insult our intelligence with your posts. I know! Cos you don’t possess much yourself.

Hasbara Buster,

forgive me, I don’t intend to exchange views with a nasty little shit like you.

you have spent the previous 3 months stirring up hatred towards Jews on ANY and all occasions, so I imagine that you’re loving this carnage, because it allows you and others to give full vent to your deep seated loathing of Jews, in the general confusion

now FUCK off to Lenin’s Tomb or JSF they’ll appreciate and share your pathology

Or are you still outside the Israeli Embassy, because Jews defending themselves is more reprehensible than anything?

Well, hard as it may be to believe, there exists a variety of opinions among anti-zionists, and I for one vehemently reject any comparison between Israel and the Nazis, or between this Gaza op and the Holocaust, for God’s sake. Since you seem to have some grasp of Spanish, you can see my opinions here on my blog. So that, for the time being, I’m not demonstrating at the Israeli Embassy.

I don’t think so Mr Buster, unless you think he is a perpetually naughty boy (in which case it would not be a past action but present and inherent i.e. “es un chico travieso”)

It doesn’t work that way; the verb estar can’t be followed by a noun.

“Proportionality cannot be measured by the number killed.”

—

So how else can it be measured? The world is outraged by Israel because it is seen as a bully. Except for the ideological hard-core Zionists, this is a fairly typical reaction from a comment in the NY Times online edition:

I’ve been a supporter of Israel all my life but there’s no justification for this. According to this analysis Israel has mounted this operation to prove its military superiority well that’s like saying the US proved it’s military superiority over Panama. All it’s proving, apparently with US approval, is that it is the bully of the middle east. Across the middle east you have a whole load of regimes that, like Iran used to be, are pensioners of the US. The rulers of Egypt, Jordan etc are looking the other way while this is going on while the people who live in their streets hold them and the US responsible for this along with Israel. All these regimes are vulnerable to being overthrown. The only thing keeping the pot from boiling over are secret police and security apparatuses. In the long term this is going to do the US a lot of harm.

— John, Hartford

I think the post is seriously misguided in its blanket identification of and attribution to The Left.

Well we could fire 4000 rockets randomly into densely populated areas in Gaza.

Hot Dog Stands on the Moon

–

That is an analogy of what the Lebanese artillery did at Nahr-al Bared.

No leftwing complaints were filed on that tactic.

So: proportionality works.

It was the middle of world war. During such a war, you don’t ask if this or that enemy attack warrants this or that response. There was no Allied response to the ineffective V-1 rocket attacks. Instead, Allied forces went on to crush the Nazis and win the war. And certainly in the last year of that war, many, many more Germans died than died in England. And many of those dead Germans were innocent civilians, victims of a terrible tragedy unleased upon the world by their own leaders.

Yes, and that is not analogous to the current Gaza situation, because Hamas is not a national player in world war, it does not threaten a continent, has not slaughtered millions on the way, and in fact does not credibly threaten Israel as a whole, but rather threatens some Israelis in border areas. Nor indeed is Hamas near military defeat, nor indeed has Israel said it wants to defeat Hamas through this operation. Nor is Hamas a regular army, or a fully strength government, nor does it have the military or other resources of the Nazis, and nor is Gaza like Nazi Germany. Nor is Hamas or its rockets the sole issue at stake in the conflict. So let’s simply call a halt to your absurd WWII comparison.

Apparently 17 Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks since the start of the year. I suppose one way of being proportional is for the Israeli army to have randomly assassinated 17 people in Gaza.

Indications are that the Israeli strikes are successfully targeting Hamas bases and weapons depots etc.

The MSM are going to look really foolish in retrospect when it becomes clear that they have been mindlessly broadcasting Hamas propaganda and recycled Jenin rhetoric.

If we take these ” anti-Zionists” at there word and they think Israel has taken on the mantle of Hitler and Nazism can we expect an International Brigade to be formed. Then the brave swp can form a Altzmon brigade and march into battle singing the poems of Michael Rosen side by side with the anti-fascists of Hamas.

I suppose your views of proportionality are informed by who you support. In other situations, proportionality has some applications, such as in police conduct, or dealing with burglars etc. However, some law and order wallahs don’t like it, they think it’s a bit wussy.

Similarly, if you are a fervent supporter of Israel in this military operation, you are not likely to be a fan of proportionality, but rather overwhelming force to crush the enemy. However, if the boot was on the other foot, these same folk would be fans of proportionality. It all boils down to power relations, chaps.

you can´t say “has estado un chico”, because “chico” is a permanent state. you can say “has estado muy “, “has sido un chico muy “, or, “has sido muy “.

“If we take these ” anti-Zionists” at there word and they think Israel has taken on the mantle of Hitler and Nazism can we expect an International Brigade to be formed. Then the brave swp can form a Altzmon brigade and march into battle singing the poems of Michael Rosen side by side with the anti-fascists of Hamas.”

or, Eric Lee will be doing the exact same thing, for the opposite side.

Anyway the comparison to S Africa is better – many fascists operating, but not yet a fascist state.

Anyway the comparison to S Africa is better – many fascists operating, but not yet a fascist state.

Explain please. Thanks

So how else can it be measured? The world is outraged by Israel because it is seen as a bully. Except for the ideological hard-core Zionists, this is a fairly typical reaction from a comment in the NY Times online edition:

The World is NOT outraged by this. Show me a quote from UN, USA, UK, France, Germany etc (Arab/Muslim countries accepted) who have expressed ‘outrage’. They have said with a single voice “Its Hamas fault and please try and avoid civilian casualties”. The signs are that the World understands the reasons for Israeli response and supports it.

Proportionality is NOT counting deaths its to do with intent and value of a response compared with your potential to respond. A rich man donates £200 and a poor man donates £200 but the poor man has donated proportionally more of their wealth, yet they donated the same.

Then there is moral proportionality factor.

If Hamas fire 5,000 rockets intending to kill as many civilians as possible and Israel responds by trying to stop the people killing with 5,000 rockets then there is no equation of proportionality required to stop those rockets from ever being fired again.

If the equation was either you kill 100,000 Gazans or you will never see an end to Hamas rockets then, I am afraid, that it will have to be 100,000 dead because there is a moral duty to stop 5,000 missiles fired at you. Hamas have the choice in this matter. Israel is only responding.

This was the equation used at Hiroshima and devastating as it was it did end the war.

Within the moral spectrum some sides are right and some wrong. One side is easily the agressor and the other easily the victim. Why cry when the victim roars and defeats the bully?

Anyway the comparison to S Africa is better – many fascists operating, but not yet a fascist state.

well when I was last in Jaffa and buying from Arab owned shops and eating at Arab cafes to the sound of the call to prayer from the mosque It did not have the feel of apartheid. Maybe I should visit a kosher caff and a synagogue in Gaza?

John P.Muslims killed by other Muslims aren’t as dead as Muslims killed by non-Muslims.

I tend to agree.

Just the other day a suicide bomber in Afganistan blew himself up killing 14 children (some as young as 4) in the process, and yet there wasn’t a word of protest from the Muslim world.

Humanity has never seen the likes of the hypocrisy displayed by the Islamic world when it comes to murder and violence.

And I say that as someone who once had deep sympathies for the Palestinian ’cause’.

Imagine, I actually supported a ’cause’ centered around little more than blind hatred.

Proportionality is quite simply the force needed to achieve a certain aim.

If a Bee stings me, I don’t turn around and prick it with a needle, I take a newspaper and if I can’t get it out of the house, where it poses a threat to my family, I whack it with the newspaper and kill it.

Was the force I used on the bee, greater than the force it used against me? Yes. Was it disproportionate? No.

Now if I had got into my car, and driven my car through the house and smashed into the bee, then it would be disproportionate, as clearly you don’t need that much force to kill a bee.

Israel’s aim, is to severely damage Hamas and it’s capability to fire kassams and other missiles into Israel. Is the force it is using excessive for the task at hand? I am no military expert, but I would say no, it is not excessive.

At the same time I pray that HaShem protect the innocent in Gaza as much as I pray that Israeli’s are protected and kept far from harm.

The Left objects to Israel, in principle, doing anything at all to defend itself

This is it in a nutshell. The so-called ‘left’ – how those aligning themselves with medieval Islamo-Facist regimes can regard themselves as ‘of the left’ is way beyond absurdity – hate Israel with pathological, demented intensity. We know why it is. It is the old hatred.

Now if I had got into my car, and driven my car through the house and smashed into the bee, then it would be disproportionate, as clearly you don’t need that much force to kill a bee.

Yeah, and it would be a bit of a blow if the bee then simply got up and buzzed away. This, I feel, will be the case with Hamas, whatever military approach the Israelis take, particularly if no progress is made at the political level – and there won’t be for a while at least as Obama beds in and Israel holds elections.

well when I was last in Jaffa and buying from Arab owned shops and eating at Arab cafes to the sound of the call to prayer from the mosque It did not have the feel of apartheid. Maybe I should visit a kosher caff and a synagogue in Gaza?

No; you should spend a season with this Palestinian family.

Forgot to say: this is a superb analysis by Eric Lee.

I would add one small reservation: the so-called moderate left may talk about ‘proportionally’, like the Lib Dem MP for Kingston (’Israel’s response is totally disproportionate’, said this sage, an expert on the ME and warfare and terrorism, I have no doubt); but imo that’s still, in many cases, coded language for underlying hatred. Do we hear Mr Davey talking about ‘disproportionate actions’ by the Chinese regime in Tibet, for example? Not to my recollection. It’s only Israel he has a problem with.

I see that Benjamin is giving us the benefit of his immense experience and knowledge of the Middle East. Much obliged, master.

Herman, Jew-haters must resort to tricks learned from the Stuermer.

Callum seems unable to grasp the correct distinction Field is making. It’s the instinctive contempt dripping from Naughtie’s lips, and those of his ilk, when interviewing the upstart Jews who think they can run their own country without his permission; contempt you never hear when he interviews Arab mass murderers.

The BBC is riddled with it. Time to abolish it.

So because Arab dictators have slaughetered their citizens this gives others the right to do otherwise. Open season-lets see who can kill the most Arabs. You are one sick puppy

You sure are. Arab dictators were not protecting their country from genocide by stone age neighbours.

An Israeli minister a few months back spoke of bringing a holocaust to the Palestinians

Liar.

The so-called ‘left’ – how those aligning themselves with medieval Islamo-Facist regimes can regard themselves as ‘of the left’ is way beyond absurdity – hate Israel with pathological, demented intensity.

To respond to this, I have to quote an Israel supporter from this other thread:

Israel, being Israel, the most moral nation on earth…

No pathological hatred of Israel. We’re just asking the country to actually meet the standards it claims to honor.

What Maven said at 3:05.

NO

Yes, and you are appearing to suggest Edward Davey harbours a “hatred” of Israel? Are you?

This is an odd business. The notion that critics of Israel have to have had made criticisms of China in Tibet too as some sort of litmus test is most bizarre. Well, at least in my case, I have passed!

My guess: the interior of the USA, southern England, Israel, and maybe some parts of France. Traditional homes of hard line racists and rightwingers.

You guessed wrong. And what could be more right-wing and racist than Hamas?

I can tell you for a fact that here in S America the only pro-US sectors are the rich. Sorry if you do not like the fact. I invite you to visit some time and walk around with a US flag, see how long before someone spits on you. Honest invitation.

It’s not as if we didn’t already know that Hispanics are as racist as everyone else.

You really are behind the times, aren’t you?

I know the following is off topic, but a while back people where correctly condemning those amongst the Hebron settlers who rioted in that holy city. And some advocated expelling the entire Jewish community of Hebron. Well do the same people, now advocate expelling the Israeli Arab communities, now that some of their more hot headed members have taken to rioting?

Israel, being Israel, the most moral nation on earth…

For some reason, I suspect Hasbara is pulling a little Chomskyesque game with his quotes.

John P

Are you suggesting that spitting on a US flag is “racist”. How very odd.

No pathological hatred of Israel. We’re just asking the country to actually meet the standards it claims to honor.

Nonsense on several levels:
The actions of a country are not required to be ‘moral’ or ‘immoral’ because of what a few people have claimed or not claimed.
A country can’t claim anything. Individuals have claimed this from time to time. They are just that: individuals. Their making this statement does not impose any particular obligations on their government.
Claiming from the Jews higher moral standards than from anyone else, which you and your ilk are always keen to do, is racist.
You are saying that a country that does not claim to be moral can commit any amount of massacres, and you have no problem with that.
Of course, the bottom line is that you will always be indignant about what Jews do to protect themselves against genocidal maniacs, which is what is happening in Gaza. You simply can’t accept that. And we know why.

The MSM are going to look really foolish in retrospect when it becomes clear that they have been mindlessly broadcasting Hamas propaganda and recycled Jenin rhetoric.

Since when did the MSM give a fuck about looking foolish?

If a Bee stings me, I don’t turn around and prick it with a needle, I take a newspaper and if I can’t get it out of the house, where it poses a threat to my family

Because of the roughness of the human skin, when a bee stings a person the sting gets entrapped in the skin and the bee loses it, thus becoming harmless.

Maybe the threat posed by the stingless bee in your analogy can be compared to the one posed by the Palestinians with their Qassams?

Also, on Nov. 5 (i.e. before the end of the truce) Israel killed six people in a Gaza raid. What’s the analogy for that? Maybe your chasing the bee with your newspaper around the house until it finally stung you?

Also, on Nov. 5 (i.e. before the end of the truce) Israel killed six people in a Gaza raid

I’m assuming, with all the talk of disproportionality, you think six is a more acceptable number and welcome Israel’s actions in this instance

Yes, and you are appearing to suggest Edward Davey harbours a “hatred” of Israel? Are you?

Anyone who makes such hysterical comments is either a Jew-hater or an opportunist playing to the gallery, or simply an idiot. I don’t know for sure which one he is.

This is an odd business. The notion that critics of Israel have to have had made criticisms of China in Tibet too as some sort of litmus test is most bizarre.

Nonsense. That was an example. The point is that most of those who come out with hysterical condemnation of Israel, never condemn anyone else. The conclusion must be that they have a huge chip on their shoulder regarding Israel and nobody else. I am entitled to ask why a politician should be so biased.

“Also, on Nov. 5 (i.e. before the end of the truce) Israel killed six people in a Gaza raid. What’s the analogy for that? Maybe your chasing the bee with your newspaper around the house until it finally stung you?”

Firstly forgive my use of the bee analogy, lets say it was a wasp, or a hornet OK?

And secondly, is this the truce, in which Kassams still rained down on the western Negev?

Maybe the threat posed by the stingless bee in your analogy can be compared to the one posed by the Palestinians with their Qassams?

This must be the silliest analogy ever, even from this poster. But then, how can we expect him to have the imagination, in the absence of ANY knowledge about the ME or war, to understand what it is to be shelled for years from Gaza?

Imagine, I actually supported a ’cause’ centered around little more than blind hatred

Don’t forget the cult of death. Which other group of humans strap explosives to their own children?

However, if the boot was on the other foot, these same folk would be fans of proportionality.

And you know this because …?
Oops, sorry, you are the sage of HK. You know it all.

It all boils down to power relations, chaps.

Do you like the sound of your own pomposity?

What needs to be repeated, I suppose, is that Hamas and those that would defend them, purveys a form of crank Islam, and ultimately the real losers are those that have to put up with their crank leadership – the Palestinians.

What strikes me as an MPAC UK watcher is how underwhelmed the support at MPAC UK seems to be judged by the number of articles about Israel/Gaza and the lack of comments, virtually unchanged since early this morning http://www.mpacuk.org/

I think they realise Hamas is ‘ucked and they have lost out to a supreme Israeli campaign. All they can do is recycle hate for ‘ZionNazis’ and pop in the odd lie about casualties.

Let us not forget that a week ago Bukhari was urging Muslims to fight Israel. Maybe gutless Bukhari should take himself to Gaza.

“You do the Hokey Cokey and you turn around – that’s what Jihad’s about”!

Couldn’t resist it with this photo http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024126.php#comments

Maven, surely you’d like to buy my book?

I reflect on the casualties supposedly filmed outside hospitals.

I don’t want to suggest that no children have been killed or traumatised but have you noticed on the film loops around hospitals that 50% of the people arriving are children arriving in private cars, while some are crying none looks to be seriously injured. No blood or flesh wounds on their faces.

Look at some of the adults, a few will have dust-caked bodies where they have been near a blast but the children don’t have these indicators.

Watch these film loops more closely.

Sorry we’re too busy pushing and shoving against police barriers on High Street Kensington to worry about making comments about zionazi-shoah-holocaust-atrocity blah blah blah

The opening words of a Haaretz news report:

‘Facing catcalls from Arab lawmakers, Defense Minister Ehud Barak told a stormy Knesset session on Monday that the operation in Gaza will be “widened and deepened as is necessary.” ’

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050940.html

One day, no doubt, after the two-state solution has been signed and put into practice, we shall read news stories like this:
‘Facing catcalls from Jewish lawmakers, Defense Minister Ahmad Mubarak told a stormy Palestinian parliament session on Monday [. . .]’

Some people might have heard that disgusting Jenny Tonge on the radio this morning talking about her recent visit to Gaza – not recent enough, Jenny…

Let us just hope that Israel has the fortitude to do the job properly this time and see it through to the end.

BBC: “Gaza hospital evacuates because of Israel threat to bomb it”

Are the so ‘ucking stupid and up the Palestinians arse that they haven’t noticed that Israel hasn’t issued ANY notice of targets and certainly NOT target a Hospital and this is just Hamas propaganda they swallowed. (I won’t put it past Hamas to blow up the Hospital and blame Israel)

Then we have Barghouti. He was interviewd and I haven’t heard such a disgusting number of lies get broadcast without challenge. “Are Hamas the agressor?” “No, Hamas are the responder”. “Isn’t this Hamas fault” “No, Israel closed the crossings” – not challenged that Israel closed crossings after each incident of rockets.

There is ONE axiom I will always cling to and I won’t change. “Arabs and Islamists constantly lie about Israel and not a single word can be trusted. Western media will broadcast their lies because they think its balance”

One day, no doubt, after the two-state solution has been signed and put into practice, we shall read news stories like this:
‘Facing catcalls from Jewish lawmakers, Defense Minister Ahmad Mubarak told a stormy Palestinian parliament session on Monday [. . .]’

In 1998, Ariel Sharon called on Jewish settlers in the West Bank to grab as much land as possible before a final agreement was reached, because

Everything that’s grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don’t grab will be in their hands.

I have no doubt you’ll be able to show me the Arab leaders’ 1938 call on Arabs to grab Jewish land in Israel, which gave origin to the Arab population currently living there.

Arabs and Islamists constantly lie about Israel and not a single word can be trusted.

A 16-year-old Arab girl claimed to have seen an Israeli soldier shoot a bound and blindfolded Palestinian. But, of course, Arabs are liars, and the Ziosphere ridiculed her words, not a single one of which could be trusted.

Then she showed the video.

Penny:

The “world” is outraged by Israel because the ruling classes who misrepresent the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims insist that Israel’s existence is the worst outrage against human rights, and the representatives of certain other countries that wish to enjoy priority access to the petroleum reserves controlled by those ruling classes are doing everything they can to foster good relations. Hence, China is stoking up a naval force to take on pirates operating off the coast of Somalia that attack its merchant vessels, but turn a blind eye to the very real genocide of Darfurians perpetrated by the Islamists of Khartoum.

Israel came into being in no small part because of centuries of Muslim persecution of the Jews of Asia Minor and north Africa, and Arab rejection wasn’t born of the occupation of the disputed territories that followed the 1967 war. Israel evacuated Gaza a couple of years ago and was preparing to evacuate the West Bank, but Hamas’s response has been and continues to be, “well, OK, 10 years of truce during which we will shell any targets within reach, rendering areas uninhabitable by anyone, and then it’s all Palestine under Shariah”.

This is why virtually all member states of the Arab League stopped handing money over to the PA when Hamas took over, leaving Hamas went suitcase in hand to Ahmadinejad. In reality, as far as Ahmadinejad and Hamas are concerned, if unarmed civilians in Gaza get killed when Israel retaliates along with many times as many “militants”, well, all the better for crying victim in the world press.

Zionist scum are continuing their barbarism against innocent civilians. How does it feel to kill children and women? Israel is a pariah, a nation that stands in the tradition of Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa.

Israeli pilots are cowards. Israeli soldiers are only good for terrorising civilians at checkpoints. Look what happened when they faced Hezbollah? They were roundly defeated, sent running crying for their mothers.

Israel is sowing the seeds of its own destruction. When it falls a cry of freedom will ring out such as the world has never seen.

I love these parodies!

Is that Eric Lee from NYC – in London by way of Israel ??

Long time mate. I won’t disclose my identity on line. If you’re curious who this is, I’m at xxmemphisbill@gmail.com. Remove the xx.

Benjamin, if everyone where like you, we’d be living in a better world. I’d really like to agree with everything you say, but can’t quite. Have you expended as much energy attacking Hamas as you have Israel and other Imperialists? Did you notice than even an Egyptian head of state asked Hamas to stop firing rockets for fear of the consequences? I presume – I don’t know, that the leaders of Hamas kept out of the firing line and rejoiced in the popular lefty (for want of a better word) protests throughout the world. Do you think they care about their dead if they can get propoganda value out of them? A Hamas leader with a straw of humanity in him would have known how to avoid the sufferings of ‘his people.’ Do you expect Israelis to say ,”Please do go on firing rockets at us,” when they know that this enemy wants to wipe them off the face of the earth? Even if you consider the Israeli attack a barbarous mistake, do you have the slightest inkling of understanding for why it was undertaken?

The argument goes around in circles, people are ideologically fixated on their own point of view and will defend it by hook or by crook. They can’t see the grain of truth in the other’s point of view.

During the first Iraqi war in TV debates I noticed this fixation, while I was thinking that both sides had a point. At that stage in my life my reactions were more automatically leftish, but I couldn’t help wanting the Iraqis to be thrown out of the country they had invaded.

Second Iraq war I didn’t agree with it. But the Usa plus Blair, pretending to be Churchill were hysterically and understandably motivated to hunt down terrorism in every corner of the earth .This task has failed pathetically as HP has demonstrated. When my sister wrote to me saying, “Isn’t Bush a monster?” I replied, saying yes he was, but that Saddam was worse. Who could not be pleased, when Afghan girls coul go back to school, music was allowed again, – but the Talibans are waiting in dark corners to nullify all this again. God save the Afghans!

For light relief, I’ll go back to personal recollections again. There was a time in London when I decided to support the Anarchists (as a pacifist). Of course people raised objections, and as time went on I developed a technique of finding, by hook or by crook, an anwer to every objection. One day I heard myself doing this, was horrified, and that was the end of ideologies for me, once and for all.

I sometimes find one can penetrate ideological views for a second: someome’s eyes light up for a moment, but then the eyes turn glassy again, happier to belong to a paranoid spiral, which has become the only scope of their lives, like that of a stalker, beyond all logical reasoning. But ideoligists are experts at reasoning. Adorno called them ‘clever oxen,’ gescheites Rindvieh.

God bless my verbal inarticulacy! If I could really say what I thought about the world we are living in I would be rushed to a psychiatric clinic in the West, in the old Soviet regimes I’d be put in a lunatic asylum, under Putin I would be censored or murdered and in the Islamic countries, Id be executed after expressing two words. But, in fact the capitalist system is much more unconsciously smart at tolerating dissident voices, because they are of no relevance to commercial productivity. A dissident in the Soviet system was sent to Siberia or put in a clinic; in the West people stretch themselves voluntarily on the psychyatrist’s couch. Help me to adapt! is their innermost cry, and the psychiatrist can’t do this, unless he turns them into zombies.

They have to come out feeling happier in a world that is not happy. I saw such a happy woman in a psychiatrist’s waiting room telling me how wonderfully her treatment had worked. She was a clone. So I packed my glasses and my book into my shoulder bag and tip-toed out of the back door.

The Indian countryside would be the place with a record growth in numbers of armed Maoists rebels and popular supprot for them?

LA MANO DE D10S

Bleep, bleep, nutter alert! The Indian hinterland is: a) a big place; b) with an unspecified starting value or point, any end value could represent a “record increase”; c) under neither Israeli nor American occupation. Next, support is most popular and Olympian in scope with the likes of Arundhati Roy, who would have the wealth and foreign bases to escape to if their beloved Naxalites take over. The general populous is less interested in grand schemes than surviving day to day.

And the “South American barrios” which you know so well,

Bleep, bleep, straw-man alert! Even if you hail from these, and ain’t Flanker’s indolent brother, why should you be trusted on pronouncements about the Indian hinterland? You really are a reactionary weirdo who imagines himself as actively speaking for a majority of six billions humans, ain’t you?

would be the place where the far left is growing strongly in size, not to mention the bourgeois nationalist left?

When did you become the gatekeeper and arbiter on what represents “the Left”?

Or didn’t you realise that both Venezuela and Bolivia have almost come to class war,

Except that is not what you said.

while the rest of South America moves to the left and agaainst the US, with the poorest sectors being the most supportive of populism and economic nationalism, as well as increasingly the far left?

And I’m a cauliflower.

Also I was not aware that the Chinese, Indian and South American masses were growing tired of the Palestinians “histrionics”?

Except I did not say they were, and was responding to your claim and your claim alone. The totalitarian food fight is this way, and you ain’t going to link me this entirely separate statements.

Or maybe you meant to correct our good friend “John P” also…?

Goodbye, Senor McCarthy!

The totalitarian food fight might even be found this way.

A cease-fire in the offing? Is this in the other papers as well, or only in The Times?

‘There were hints that Hamas might be reconsidering its position in the wake of the onslaught. In Senegal, which currently presides over the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the Foreign Ministry said that Khaled Meshaal, the Hamas leader-in-exile, had said that he was ready to renew a ceasefire that expired ten days ago if Israel ended its bombardment and allowed supplies into Gaza.
“The Hamas leader said he was ready to sign such an accord in a place to be chosen by common consent between the two sides,” the ministry said in a statement.’

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5414551.ece

Israel evacuated Gaza a couple of years ago and was preparing to evacuate the West Bank

Crap. Pure and absolute crap.

Israel never prepared to evacuate the West Bank. On the contrary, building in the settlements has skyrocketed, with this year witnessing the highest year-on-year increase ever (almost twice as much as last year), and last July Ehud Barak authorized a new civilian settlement in Maskiyot, FAR removed from the Green Line.

As for the Gaza withdrawal, it was done to freeze the political process with the Palestinians, as per the confession of Sharon’s foreign policy adviser, Dov Weisglass. See here.

Hasbara busted — yet again.

Be nice to see this blog flagging up the peace movement in Israel…you don’t have to be on the left (like me) to protest against the assault on Gaza or not to feel it will lead to more violence.

No Felix, if everyone was like Benjamin evil would always prevail because people of good intent would never act at all.

I think I am in pig shit heaven with this one!

Zionist scum are continuing their barbarism against innocent civilians.

Have you noticed how beautifully designed and fast these F16’s are. In the hands of an Israel pilot they are a work of art!

How does it feel to kill children and women?

I refer the prick to the expert child and women killers called Palestinians. They are expert at not only killing Israeli women and children but their own children. They are trule Scum’s Scum.

Israel is a pariah, a nation that stands in the tradition of Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa.

You need this one to show your true Islamist credentials. Its like an exam quoestion for Terrorist Supporters. “Name two countries or regimes that the Israelis are most like”

Israeli pilots are cowards.

those G forces would kill your average Arab pilot, which is why they fly them so slow and don’t make too many turns and climbs. The average life of an Arab pilot in a warplane against an Israeli pilot is about 2 minutes.

Israeli soldiers are only good for terrorising civilians at checkpoints

They make great Chicken Soup and the female soldiers….. well they are just legendary! Hey Slamo Boy, what’s it like to be bossed around by a load of women soldiers?

Look what happened when they faced Hezbollah? They were roundly defeated, sent running crying for their mothers.

Look what REALLY happened, Hezbollah were taking such a pounding and losing their friends had to get a ceasefire to save them.

Israel is sowing the seeds of its own destruction. When it falls a cry of freedom will ring out such as the world has never seen.

Then you wake up, realise you’ve spent it all on the wet bedclothes and feel impotent for another week.

Callum –

As a supposedly objective journalist I think Naughtie has a duty to maintain an even tone and not sound like he is appalled by Israeli actions, given there has been and is great suffering on both sides. This is not a case where the human suffering is all on one side and an oppressor is on the other. Even in those cases, journalists should be careful not to let their own emotions get to the front of their work.

What is Israel supposed to do? Put up with the rocket attacks and suffer slow economic strangulation until the whole country collapses?

Naughtie was pathetic.

Israel has the right to enjoy the peaceful use of her own territory, therefore she has the right to take whatever measures it takes to achieve that. But I do not think it is in Israels interests to move troops into Gaza, the only reason for doing that would be to take out Hamas fighters without harming the civilians. I would rather see the Israelis fire a shell or missile into Gaza for every rocket that Hamas fires into Israeli territory. The consequences in Gaza would be terrible, but ultimately they have to learn to take responsibility and get their attack dogs under control.

The population of Gaza voted overwhelmingly for Hamas. Hamas has now taken them to war, and used them as human shields. Furthermore, Hamas has a much greater incentive to maximise the civilian death toll than the Israelis do. Hamas know they are in a win-win situation. They can prosecute a shooting war and cry foul whenever the enemy fights back.

If the public in Gaza don’t want this, the answer is in their own hands.

Maven: RE Important. What channel was the interview on and what was the time and what was it called?

I want to ask my e-mail list to complain.

Thanks,

Inna

“But I do not think it is in Israels interests to move troops into Gaza, the only reason for doing that would be to take out Hamas fighters without harming the civilians. I would rather see the Israelis fire a shell or missile into Gaza for every rocket that Hamas fires into Israeli territory. The consequences in Gaza would be terrible, but ultimately they have to learn to take responsibility and get their attack dogs under control.”

That’s a tactical and humanitarian decision that you, as a non-Israeli leader, are simply not able to make for Israel. You can opine of course but that’s it.

You’re not there and I’m not there. And neither of us have been elected to keep Israelis safe.

Regards,

Inna

“Crap. Pure and absolute crap.

Israel never prepared to evacuate the West Bank. ”

If I had more energy I would find what you said about Gaza. If memory serves, you used the Exact Same words.

Regards,

Inna

Incidentally, Israel has radar capability to trackback incoming missiles, so they would be in a position to target artillery on the launch points. There would never be any rationale for random targetting.

“There would never be any rationale for random targetting.”

Given how crowded Gaza is and given that by the BBC’s own biased “account” 300 people (about as many as there are in one apartment complex in Gaza–or maybe less) are dead and that almost all those people are terrorists I don’t think any random targeting is going on.

Regards,

Inna

Of the 51 civilians, the UN is reporting have been killed in Gaza, how many died because the Hamas Government of Gaza would not let them seek medical treatment?

This is a genuine question.

Thanks,

Inna

“Maybe I should visit a kosher caff and a synagogue in Gaza?”

yes, like vlooking for Oktoberfest in a Warsaw ghetto. Unlikely.

AM:”Bleep, bleep, nutter alert! The Indian hinterland is: a) a big place;”

which is presumably why you chose it as your example?

“b) with an unspecified starting value or point, any end value could represent a “record increase”;”

There is increasing amount of support for armed Maoist rebels in the Indian countryside. Fact. This doesn’t sit with your argument that people in the “indian hinterand” don’t care about US imperialism.

“c) under neither Israeli nor American occupation.”

amazing insight.

“Next, support is most popular and Olympian in scope with the likes of Arundhati Roy, who would have the wealth and foreign bases to escape to if their beloved Naxalites take over.”

Which proves what? Was I arguing that the maoists have majority support, ormaking a moral judgement on the maoist leadership? No. I was simply backing up the argument that the planet is growing increasingly sick of US imperialism and its ally Israel, which really you would have to be a sheltered fool to not realise anyway.

“The general populous is less interested in grand schemes than surviving day to day.”

Yes, you surey love this comforting idea of the poor, but sadly for you the Indian peasantry is not entirely stupid, andmany link their immediate suffering to global causes, drawing political conclusion. WOW! Who would have thought such a thing possible!?

Perhaps they jsut need to be bombed back to the medieval age or placed udner embargo for decades until they will jsut beg for mercy, depoliticised, wishing only to survive. This is indeed the helpless, begging, non-threatening version of the third world mases which people like yourself can both feel comfortable with, and “help”.

Sadly though, increasing numbersof the Indian peasantry are beocming politically radicalised.

“Bleep, bleep, straw-man alert! Even if you hail from these, and ain’t Flanker’s indolent brother, why should you be trusted on pronouncements about the Indian hinterland?”

Oh I thought you made a pronouncement onthe Indian hinterland int he preceeding ost?

I apologise that I occassionally read the news and follow global events, andhappen to know about the growth of Maoism int he Indian countryside. Maybe I should just get back to concentrating on day to day survival, I mean it is pretty petty bourgeois and decadent of me to waste my time on such “grand schemes” as the global international situation, which could not possibly have anything at all to do with the daily conditions of life in a Latin American barrio (no, I am not personaly from a “barrio” in the sense you mean it, if I was it would be very unliekly that I would be speakign to you in such good engish and have the time to be on this blog. however, I can show you many politicised and higly aware activists who do hail from such places, and I can assure you that these communities today are swinging leftwards and have an increasingly critical view of US imeprialism).

“You really are a reactionary weirdo who imagines himself as actively speaking for a majority of six billions humans, ain’t you?”

Oh, I didn’t realise that I ever claimed to speak for 6 billion humans. rather Imade an an assessment he general direction of global consciousness, based on things I know about which you obviusly don’t. which is not the same. you in fact though did make a blanket statement abotu those poor depoliticised masses stretching from India, to China,to the south american “barrios”.

Umm no, you entered the food fight to throw food one way, stop playing dumb. Luckily you can’t throw.

John P.
29 December 2008, 4:15 pm

“You guessed wrong. And what could be more right-wing and racist than Hamas?”

I guessed wrong?

Ok, strange that you still haven’t explained which parts of the planet you were talking about.

“It’s not as if we didn’t already know that Hispanics are as racist as everyone else.

You really are behind the times, aren’t you?”

Oh, actually I thought that “the planet” was growing tired of “Arabo/(sic)Muslim histrionics”. Yet, this quite big part of the planet isn’t, and is in fact getting more and more sick of the US and Israel. I didn’t realise we were making moral judgements ont he fact. Calling “the fact” racist doesn’t justify your opposite claim about the situation.

Though for the record spititng on a US flag is not racist, it is anti-racist and shows solidarity with the victims of the US state’s racism.

Inna my Important viewing was about 1:30pm. First I saw Sky and then the BBC was on News 24. I couldn’t believe that a BBC reporter takes the assumption that a response is ‘disproportionate’ and challenges Ron Prosor so agrressively.

BTW Sky had a great interview feed from Fox of BiBi. I must admit he not only got an easy ride but the studio host was making his points for him. That’s the USa for you. Also Foox always characterise this as Israel’s response to Hamas rocket attacks.

I HATE the BBC.

Maven–

OK but was BBC1, BBC2, BBC3?

I am sure it’s obvious to a Brit the minute you say News 24 but since I only visit my in-laws occasionally….

Thanks,

Inna

Though for the record spititng on a US flag is not racist, it is anti-racist and shows solidarity with the victims of the US state’s racism.

Spitting on the flag of the least racist country in the world does that?

Wow, just wow.

Oh, great, la mano de d10s meets John P. Like matter and antimatter. Any chance of them both exploding?

Also, I noticed that la mano de d10s has an Argentinian IP address. What is it that attracts these Argentine Israel-haters to us?

Felix, thanks for your interesting comment. In answer to your question:

Have you expended as much energy attacking Hamas as you have Israel and other Imperialists?

For the record, I think Hamas should stop firing rockets into Israel, I made that point earlier. However, as regards Israel’s current military operation, it will fail in its aim of stopping rocket attacks, and may simply endanger Israelis further. As for defeating Hamas, in order to do that (temporarily), Israel will need to flatten much of Gaza and kill a huge swathe of its population – that’s simply not on the cards.

I am certainly no friend of Hamas. However I do not count myself as a fervent Israeli nationalist either, although I do support the existence of the state of Israel. As I said earlier, I find the the whole Arab/Isreali conflict very depressing because of the entrenched views of both sides, the prejudice and misunderstanding on both sides, and the constant repetition of mistakes – this military operation another one of them. It’s all very sad, with so much death, pain and suffering which scars generations.

For the record, I think Hamas should stop firing rockets into Israel, I made that point earlier.

For the record, while Benji has never protested Hamas attacks on Israel, his position is that he “doesn’t have a horse in that race” but the timing of his comments is chosen to maximise his trolling of HP. It’s all very sad.

“What is it that attracts these Argentine Israel-haters to us?” Easy: many among those who post here seem to be Jewish and to back, at least, Israel’s existence and right to defend herself. Argentina was/is the most anti-Semitic country in Latin America. Remember that, though Nazis sought refuge everywhere, Buenos Aires under Peron was their favorite destination. Peronism is one of those strange populist Third World movements that have both a right and a left wing, each of them rather anti-Semitic. In most other Latin American nations Jew hatred used to be confined to small groups within the old-style right before becoming fashionable among many leftists by the late 80’s. On the other hand, there’s some residual anti-British animosity in Argentina due to the Falklands/Malvinas war. Galtieri’s and the other generals’ war was also backed, in Argentine, by both the left and the right. By the way, fair is fair, and the Argentinian anti-Israeli commenter was right about the uses in Spanish of the verbs “ser” and “estar”. Whoever is not a native Spanish (or, btw, Portuguese) speaker won’t ever get those verbs 100% right. (Wikipedia articles on Spanish and Portuguese grammar are very good.)

Haaretz now has a piece saying substantially the same thing about a possible cease-fire that The Times had said several hours earlier:

‘Khaled Meshal, the Damascus-based head of Hamas’ political bureau, has been calling for a cease-fire for two days now. However, communications with the organization’s leadership in Gaza are hampered because all its leaders have gone underground for fear of Israeli assassination attempts, while Israel’s air strikes have disrupted the Strip’s communications networks. Paradoxically, the same measures that have hampered Hamas’ military response are also impeding efforts to end the fighting.’

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051024.html

Bartok mentioned “the Falklands/Malvinas war”. The name “Malvinas” has a curious history. It’s an adaptation of the French name “Malouines”, which the commander of a French naval expedition chose to bestow on the islands as a tribute to his fleet’s home port of Saint-Malo in Brittany. The town of Saint-Malo is named after its first bishop, who was not French by birth, having arrived in Brittany (Bretagne) from the other side of the Channel, that is, from Grande-Bretagne. So you could say that “Malvinas” is just as much an English name as “Falklands”, albeit by an indirect route.

“What is it that attracts these Argentine Israel-haters to us?” Easy: many among those who post here seem to be Jewish and to back, at least, Israel’s existence and right to defend herself. Argentina was/is the most anti-Semitic country in Latin America. Remember that, though Nazis sought refuge everywhere, Buenos Aires under Peron was their favorite destination. Peronism is one of those strange populist Third World movements that have both a right and a left wing, each of them rather anti-Semitic. In most other Latin American nations Jew hatred used to be confined to small groups within the old-style right before becoming fashionable among many leftists by the late 80’s. On the other hand, there’s some residual anti-British animosity in Argentina due to the Falklands/Malvinas war. Galtieri’s and the other generals’ war was also backed, in Argentine, by both the left and the right. By the way, fair is fair, and the Argentinian anti-Israeli commenter was right about the uses in Spanish of the verbs “ser” and “estar”. Whoever is not a native Spanish (or, btw, Portuguese) speaker won’t ever get those verbs 100% right. (Wikipedia articles on Spanish and Portuguese grammar are very good.)”

none of this is wrong in itself, but Argentina being the most anti-semitic country in Latin America (maybe, maybe not), has little to do with current opposition to Israel’s genocidal plans in Gaza. the protesters outside the Israeli in Buenos Aires today were not there because of some historic cultural conditioning against Jews, but because 3 decades of Washington Consensus and IMF doctrine have left the society devastated, ipvoerished and brutalised, and this has woken up millions of people to the truth about the current world order, who increasingly see a common cause with other parts of the world and sectors of society fighting the same impositions. We have 30 000 disappeared so that imperialism could impose its agenda on us, the Palestinians have 60 years of Nakba.One people, one struggle.

Of course society is polarising and there are still lots of conservative, traditionally racist (including “anti-semitic”, though in a casual, not necesarilly anti-israel sense – no surprises considering Israel was a key arms supplier to the Junta of 1976-83), Catholic and chauvinistic sectors of Argentine society, who have an alliance with US imperialism, have frequently carried out miltiary coups and economci and political sabotage with its backing, etc., and who would not be seen dead on a protest against Israel. These are the people who effectively want an end to protest and radicalisation and instead want a “sensible” country which accepts the demands of the global marketplace, stops complainign, and “works” (thoguh funnilly these people aren’t the ones who do the real work).

That is the sector you people are ont he side of. They are your allies. The anti-poltiics, racist, elitist, right wing scum.

The protesters otuside the Israeli embassy today are not anti-semtiic and neither come from such a tradition (not many unemployed “piqueteros” have German ancestors). They are in fact people with soldiarity who don’t accept the right of the great powers to kill 300 of the “lesser races” and submit us all to perpetual poverty.

And btw, where is the evidence of left-wing peronism´s history of anti-semitism? I am not a peronist, I think peronism was a semi-fascist movement, but I don’t think that the Peronist left was anti-semitic, and I do not knwo of a respected historian who claims this.

“What is it that attracts these Argentine Israel-haters to us?” Easy: many among those who post here seem to be Jewish and to back, at least, Israel’s existence and right to defend herself. Argentina was/is the most anti-Semitic country in Latin America.

The last election for the Buenos Aires mayorship pitted the Jewish incumbent, Jorge Télerman, against Daniel Filmus, another Jew, and Mauricio Macri, a non-Jew.

And who won? Mr. Macri, the only non-Jewish candidate. Definitely, Argentina is the most antisemitic country in South America.

And now excuse me; I’ve got to torch the synagogue on Libertad street.

Léon Blum was France’s prime-minister in the 30’s. This means that there was no anti-Semitism at all in that country either before Blum’s first government (Dreyfuss) or after (Vichy). Have you ever heard of Bruno Kreisky? Do you know what country he was chancellor of?
Argentina was the only Latin American country where a serious pogrom took place (soon after WW1). And, btw, someone could tell us about the different kind of reactions there when herr Eichmann was captured and taken to Jerusalem to face trial.

HB: Is it your assertion that because Milliband (a British-Jewish) is the foreign policy face of the UK, there is no anti-Semitism in the UK?

Regards,

Inna

You lot are barking especially Mavin.

Ben you seem the only one that isn’t consumed by hatred and makes rational points.

60 years since the palestine was divided by the united nations. 60 years during which time the palestinians who fled at the urging of the invading Arab league armies, and fear of the israelis,have been forced to remain within ‘refugee camps’ denied citizenship, equality, or even work in the arab lands in which they have been resident in, and have been spied upon, mistrusted and manipulated by their ‘brother’ arab regimes. meanwhile tens of thousands of Jews expelled from their homes throughout the middle east, fleeing the death camps of europe and the gulags of Soviet tyranny, and starvation in Africa have been welcomed and accomidated and housed within the tiny land of Israel, a state that despite constant threat of destruction has remained a functioning and vigorous democracy.
By an odd quirk the only other democracies that exist within the middle east, the palestinian authority and the government of lebanon, have both been threatened and undermined by the fascist religiously justified fanatics of hesbollah and Hamas which are championed by a senile and bankrupt left, whose craven servility to the lies of Stalinism have now been replaced with a equally servile worship of any psychopath with a keffyiah and a kalashnikov.
The senile and bankrupt left have replaced belief in a socialist future, with a new ideology that mistakes anti-modernism; hatred for democracy, contempt for the values of the enlightenment, and a cult for martyrdom and hatred of life for a nefarious ‘Anti Imperialism’.

G.

The blame for every one dead in Gaza lies with the fools who perpetrated the pull-out.

I’m really enjoying the new troofer theory which is being aired here and other threads: the ‘hostile withdrawal’ from Gaza. Priceless Jooz-behind-all-bad-things-in-the-World whimsy. From the same mindset that believes a fuel truck coming through the border is a sinister stratagem.

The analogy with the V-1 rockets in WWII is idiotic. Britain was at all out war with Germany, British attacks on Germany have to be taken in the context of its overall war aims, not as reponses to specific provocations.

As for “proportionality”, surely in the current context it means using no more than the amount of force required to achieve the specific aim, ie preventing the firing of the rockets, and avoiding unneccessary civilian deaths. People may argue about whether or not this is what Israel is actually doing but the question itself seems to me to be quite clear.

Oh, and “the Left” is not one homogenous mass of people who all think the same thing, so I’m not inclined to take particularly seriously articles which pretend that it is.

I will add though that the use of the word “holocaust” in respect of the current situation is abhorrent.

Re Naughtie:

The people who have accused me of “not getting it” are involved in a self-deception of their own. There seems to be consensus that “objective” journalism consists of “treating both sides the same”. This is false. Objectivity consists of treating both sides by the same standards, which is something very different. Such a treatment might, quite fairly, elicit a situation were one side was being treated more harshly than the other. The idea that objectivity consists in equal treatment, rather than treatment by equal standards, is a rather naive notion knocked out of anyone at any introductory journalism course.

The protesters otuside the Israeli embassy today are not anti-semtiic and neither come from such a tradition (not many unemployed “piqueteros” have German ancestors). They are in fact people with soldiarity who don’t accept the right of the great powers to kill 300 of the “lesser races” and submit us all to perpetual poverty.

Were there demonstrations in solidarity with Argentina’s Jewish community after the 1994 AMIA bombing/massacre? If so, were you there?

As for “proportionality”, surely in the current context it means using no more than the amount of force required to achieve the specific aim, ie preventing the firing of the rockets, and avoiding unneccessary civilian deaths. People may argue about whether or not this is what Israel is actually doing but the question itself seems to me to be quite clear.

It’s not clear to me at all, Andrew. If you mean simply firing at rocket launchers, Israel has tried this before. The problem is that these launchers and rockets are highly mobile (they can be quickly loaded on and off small trucks), and by the time the Israelis spot one and prepare to destroy it, it may be gone.

Argentina being the most anti-semitic country in Latin America (maybe, maybe not), has little to do with current opposition to Israel’s genocidal plans in Gaza.

One hundred years ago, Argentina used to the one of the richest countries in the world. Today it is a basketcase and a backwater, thanks to the ineptness and dishonesty of its leaders and intellectuals — so little wonder that Argentines very easily turn on scapegoats. Its people have long possessed the fascist/socialist mindset that blames others for one’s own inadequacies.

Gene,

No, I don’t neccessarily mean just firing rockets back. I’m not suggesting any particular kind of response, just that whatever they do they take care to keep civilian casualties to the absolute minimum.

“Objectivity consists of treating both sides by the same standards, which is something very different.”

But you don’t, Callum: you have never treated Jewish nationalism as equal or equivalent to Palestinian Christian and Islamic nationalism. You have never treated Jewish rights to national self-determination in the historical land of Israel as equal and equivalent to those of Palestinian Christians or Muslims in historical Palestine, never mind that both have a right of return equal or equivalent to that of the other to such respective states.

As a result, it seems to me, anything the Jewish state of Israel does to defend its citizens you have said or implied to be a de facto act of aggression, since the Jewish state of Israel is itself an act of aggression.

Never mind that it is only the largely Jewish, British posters on HP you have called ‘bloody boot in mouth baby-eaters’.

“There was no Allied response to the ineffective V-1 rocket attacks. Instead, Allied forces went on to crush the Nazis and win the war.”

Actually the Allied response was massive. In the Netherlands alone, just in the last 6 months of the war, Allied bombing attacks on V-weapons launch sites killed over 20,000 Dutch civilians. You see, the Germans made sure the launch sites were in or close to built-up areas. Food for thought, ain’t it?

Is it your assertion that because Milliband (a British-Jewish) is the foreign policy face of the UK, there is no anti-Semitism in the UK?

I was just making a reductio ad absurdum argument.

Argentina is not antisemitic, but not because a former mayor of Buenos Aires or, indeed, the current mayor of my city, are Jews; it’s not antisemitic because being Jewish poses no obstacle to a person’s integration into any Argentinian institution.

One hundred years ago, Argentina used to the one of the richest countries in the world. Today it is a basketcase and a backwater, thanks to the ineptness and dishonesty of its leaders and intellectuals — so little wonder that Argentines very easily turn on scapegoats. Its people have long possessed the fascist/socialist mindset that blames others for one’s own inadequacies.

Crap.

The only anti-Jewish riot in Argentinian history took place in 1919, i.e. when the country’s economic relevance peaked.

As we have become more and more irrelevant, so has, fortunately, antisemitism in the country. So much so that during the 2001-2002 meltdown not a single Jew was attacked, either physically or verbally, nor was the Jewish community accused of anything. I challenge you to show the faintest hint of evidence that anyone was scapegoated in those terrible economic years for Argentina.

I do support the existence of the state of Israel

I am sure that comes as a huge relief to Israelis and Jews everywhere. With Benjamin supporting the existence of Israel, all her problems are removed in one fell swoop. The sage of Hong Kong, Brig. Prof. Sir Benjamin, has delivered his verdict; and although this unassailable verdict, viz. that Israel’s actions will not stop rocket attacks on her population – a verdict based on many years in military intelligence and extensive tours of duty in Israel and elsewhere in the ME – is a bit of a bummer, thanks to Benjamin’s support Israel’s future as a flourishing country is assured once and for all.

“Were there demonstrations in solidarity with Argentina’s Jewish community after the 1994 AMIA bombing/massacre? If so, were you there?”

There were demonstrations, and continue to be. I was 8 years old so did not attend. I would attend a march calling for unity of Jews, Muslims and all workers and popular sectors in Argentina, in repudiation of the Hizbollah attacks and in support of an internationalist solution to the situation, ending the west and Israel’s colonialist policies in Iran and the Arab world. However, the Jewish communtiy organisations leading the protests against the bombings are sectarian, anti-working class and chauvinistic. So no, I have never attended any of their marches.

I do not think Argentina’s Jewish community is oppressed just because they suffered two terrorist attacks. I think those within Argentina who define themselves as part of a “Jewish community” (overwhelmingly middle class, white, and centred in the capital), are adhering to a reactionary religious identity which serves the interests of their institutionalised right-wing communtiy leaders, and seperating themselves from the masses, much like Catholicism.

When Jewish workers fight for their rights, I don’t distinguish them from any other worker, Bolivian, Paraguayan, Peruvian, Korean etc. Likewise, many Jewish middle class intellectuals have dedicated themselves to the working class and popular struggle, and not to a reactionary Jewish identity, and I consider these people as much part of the working class as anyone else.

“One hundred years ago, Argentina used to the one of the richest countries in the world. Today it is a basketcase and a backwater, thanks to the ineptness and dishonesty of its leaders and intellectuals”

ah, this old line. Which historians of Argentina have you read? Because, you are talking rubbish. I reccomend to you “La Economia Politica Argentina: Poder y Clases Sociales, 1930-2006″ by Monica Peralta Ramos. An excellent book which defenestrates very effectively the outdated kind of crap you just said.

The idiot from Labour Start seriously believes that Hamas’s rockets are the equivalent of the V bombs!! Hamas’s rockets have killed about 20 in eight years, who is even counting how many Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip in that time but the ratio must be around the Nazi reprisal level of 100-1.

Eric Lee of course believes in Labour solidarity except when Palestinian workers are being killed. Therein lies a good example of Zionism’s racism. But however much the ‘leftists’ as in Strasserite ‘leftism’ of HP whine and glory over Israel’s murderous bombardmen most people can see through such sophistry.

Israel does what it does courtesy of the USA and western support. That is its only rationale, not the puny pathetic missiles which occasionally find a target in Israel. Of course it is a terrible thing for the colonised to use violence on their oppressor.

No doubt Lee & co. would have condemned the violence of the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto if they’d been around then.

I will add though that the use of the word “holocaust” in respect of the current situation is abhorrent.

I have just argued as much on my blog.

The last bit of your post undermines the general thrust of your argument. If you want to argue that actual numbers are what we should be focusing on, then let’s count the numbers of people killed in the past 60 or so years by all the regimes that have been involved in mass killings.

We can then work out who are the most profligate offender.

We can then keep a tally of who’s the worst out of Hamas and the IDF.

Simple!

“No doubt Lee & co. would have condemned the violence of the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto if they’d been around then.”

I doubt any of them would have refused to recognise the legitimacy of a German state in return for one of their own in half of historical Germany.

“I doubt any of them would have refused to recognise the legitimacy of a German state in return for one of their own in half of historical Germany.”

So you recognise the “legitimacy” of the same German state which implemented the Nazi policies?

this tells us much about the inconsistencies of bourgeois liberal ideologues.

and also, if they had been demanding Germany retreat from occupied territory and let htose it had exiled return to their lands, then yes, they would have been correct

“So you recognise the “legitimacy” of the same German state which implemented the Nazi policies?”

No. I just said had it offered those in the Warsaw ghetto their own state in half historical Germany (or anywhere, really, probably), I doubt they would have refused to recognize the state that offered it to them.

“and also, if they had been demanding Germany retreat from occupied territory and let htose it had exiled return to their lands, then yes, they would have been correct”

You mean you’ve a had a chance to think about what I wrote and that, in fact, it makes sense? Sure.

Well, the Germans hadn’t been exiled from Germany, ever, and had conquered a vast empire beyond historical Germany, but I doubt the resistance fighters of the Warsaw ghetto would have refused a state in half of historical Germany, or anywhere, even, nonetheless.

I thought Eric had written a well argued case trying to introduce some balance. It is just plain amazing to see how much depth of feeling there is in just a selection of the very large number of comments above. Clearly though many of the comments are fueled by the authors existing pre-conceptions, which inevitably denies more reasoned arguments.
Let me state my views which are that Hamas asked for a military response from Israel by refusing to renew the ceasefire, and no one should now be surprised that they got what they deserved. The big question is what comes next, and if anyone bothers to read the English language versions of Israeli papers like Haaretz on the net, they will see that Israeli society and politicians are deeply divided on this. Here is the hallmark of a true democracy, which encourages public participation in these momentous issues.
By the way the Supreme Court in Israel has ordered that more journalists must be allowed into Gaza to report what is going on.
Personally and together with colleagues in Meretz either in the UK, USA or Israel we assert that Israel should very quickly unilaterally restore a ceasefire. The reasoning is that a ground offensive will be messy, unpredictable in outcome and difficult to end decisively. The precedent in Lebanon War II showed that the fighting there actually strengthened Hitzbulah, and despite the fact that Israeli forces actually hit them very much harder than Hitzbulah admitted, they were still able to claim a propaganda victory.
Many like myself also argue that the economic blockade of Gaza has been a strategic mistake and should end completely.

I thought Eric had written a well argued case trying to introduce some balance. It is just plain amazing to see how much depth of feeling there is in just a selection of the very large number of comments above. Clearly though many of the comments are fueled by the authors existing pre-conceptions, which inevitably denies more reasoned arguments.
Let me state my views which are that Hamas asked for a military response from Israel by refusing to renew the ceasefire, and no one should now be surprised that they got what they deserved. The big question is what comes next, and if anyone bothers to read the English language versions of Israeli papers like Haaretz on the net, they will see that Israeli society and politicians are deeply divided on this. Here is the hallmark of a true democracy, which encourages public participation in these momentous issues.
By the way the Supreme Court in Israel has ordered that more journalists must be allowed into Gaza to report what is going on.
Personally and together with colleagues in Meretz either in the UK, USA or Israel we assert that Israel should very quickly unilaterally restore a ceasefire. The reasoning is that a ground offensive will be messy, unpredictable in outcome and difficult to end decisively. The precedent in Lebanon War II showed that the fighting there actually strengthened Hitzbulah, and despite the fact that Israeli forces actually hit them very much harder than Hitzbulah admitted, they were still able to claim a propaganda victory.
Many like myself also argue that the economic blockade of Gaza has been a strategic mistake and should end completely.

There is no excuse for war crimes!

Fellow Worker Lee,

I wanted to start off by saying that I am a regular reader of your column in the Industrial Worker and a frequent visitor to LabourStart. I am dismayed that you are defending the indefensible actions of the Israeli military, rather than aknowledging the human rights catastrophe of F-16s dropping tons of explosives onto the most densely populated place on earth. Gaza is a ghetto in the classical sense, home to some 800,000 children. What Israel is doing is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

This most recent pre-election massacre isn’t about Hamas or quassam attacks. It is about winning an election and reinflating the shamed ego of the Israeli military which was defeated in Lebanon in 2006.

The occupation of Gaza never ended – Gazans have been suffering under a brutal, almost total shut off of water, fuel, food, and medicine since Sharon’s “disengagement.” FW Lee’s clumsy attempts to tear down leftist straw men, as well as his strained historical comparisons fall on their face. Gazans are not Nazis or Germans. Israelis aren’t the British being bombed in WW2.

I am curious, why do you feel the need to defend Israel’s blatent violations of international law? What is next, an editorial condemning Israeli draft resistors?

As an American Jew, as a former Zionist, and as an industrial unionist, I have been silent for too long. I can’t be silent in the face of this latest conflict, which is not a war, but is a massacre.

I urge all unionists to educate themselves about the situation and to have the moral courage to stand against the war crimes being perpetrated by Israel.

Gulag Gaza
Jew CHEKA boss Moses Uritsky, and kosher; Genrik Yagoda, Laverenti Beria, Apfelbaum et al. butchered Russian Slavs by the million. Few contemporary do-gooder journalists in the West wrote a word on the subject; there were some exceptions, valiant Robert Wilton’s attack on the jew, after they had murdered the Romanovs, is one example. Israel is a terroist/criminal state, it is essential that independent news reporters, witness the atrocities being committed in Gulag Gaza. Otherwise, we will have another Sabra or Shatila. Judaism is the most barbaric religion on the planet.