Harry's Place

“There’s no doubt in my mind that Israel’s response to the rocket attacks on the Israeli civilian population, which serve no strategic purpose, are quite justified. Hamas literally begged Israel rocket-by-rocket to respond and so it did.”

In the past 6 months Israel has violated the true over 1000 times killing 22 Palestinians and yet the press repeats the mantra that Hamas violated the truce.

The US press is a joke as is US ‘leadership’

“any sympathy that Israel has so far won for the unprovoked attacks on its people will be lost.”

There doesn’t seem to be all that much sympathy, political positioning perhaps, but not sympathy.

Israel can’t allow Hamas to use the potential deaths of Palestinian civilians to act as a shield, allowing that death obsessed organisation, to continue to act as it wishes against innocent Israelis.

But despite this, there is much wisdom in what you have written in the rest of your post.

A full scale ground invasion, would suit Hamas, and clearly casualties, of both innocent Gazans and Israeli troops would increase dramatically.

There is also the threat of Hezbollah in the north, who knows if it might want to up the ante and launch katyushas.

It seems Israel is in an almost no-win situation.

Whlist this analysis, like Aaronovitch’s, is heavily biased and full of factual inaccuracies, its conclusion is at least consistent with what I’ve been saying since this thing started. So, good. Let’s end this now.

OK, OK, you are right. I take back all I said. It is true that HAMAS is to blame, but I did not want to admit it.
Sorry

More than that, Israel does have the right to defend itself.

Whlist this analysis, like Aaronovitch’s, is heavily biased and full of factual inaccuracies, its conclusion is at least consistent with what I’ve been saying since this thing started.

What sort of topsy-turvy approach to research allows conclusions to be drawn from methodology taken to be fatally flawed? An opportunistic fundamentally untrustworthy approach, of course.

“If we are to do this then the friends of the Palestinians would be best advised to put pressure on Hamas never to launch another of its bloody rockets and to stop its death-laden rhetoric, and the friends of Israel well placed to cajole it into making a settlement seem worthwhile. All else is verbiage.”
And this too is verbiage of the most unrealistic kind that it is possible to imagine. There will be no peace while Hamas exists. How to destroy Hamas without inflicting huge casualties on the wretched inhabitants of Gaza is seen as an insoluble problem for Israel. At some point in the not too distant future it will be seen as an existential problem for the Palestinians.

Sorry, that was me!

No, it is probably better if the IDF push on and finish off Hamas.

Only democracies can live in peace side by side, and who knows, out of the rubble the Gazans may possibly find a way to elect representatives who are not power-crazed theocrats.

If Israel was really serious about a solution (as Gordon implies they are), then they wouldn’t be annexing further Palestinian land with the wall, building further settlements on the West Bank, or continuing to discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel. None of these actions can be credibly explained as a response to Hamas firing rockets.

Israel’s actions are the actions of an expnsionist power with a colonial mindset. They are not the actions of a party to a conflict which desires peace.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-dejevsky/mary-dejevsky-dont-overlook-israels-vulnerability-1216250.html

Everybody should read the above article, it is brilliant!

Déjà vu in Gaza: Only hatred, bereavement, pain, and desire for revenge will come out of Gaza op

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3646558,00.html

[.....] There it is again, the cyclical “déjà vu war.” That same ceremonial bloodshed that again is being poured into the hot lava that has been leading the entire region to misery for dozens of years now.

[....]
Moreover, and there is no need to deny this, there is not too much glory and valor involved in flying over a giant prison and firing at its people using helicopters and fighter jets. So far we have seen sophistication and success mostly in the excited commentary of dozens of generals (res.) who again enjoy the limelight. As always.

[....]
Yet out of all the big words, as usual, we see a small and ugly truth emerging: Our southern cities have been hit by dozens of missiles, while Gaza sustained hundreds of dead. Almost half of them are civilians; almost half of them are the graduates of a police course who have nothing to do with Qassam rockets.

Yet we have seen this bleeding folly time and again. After all, this was precisely the way Israel conducted itself during the terrible years of the Intifada. After every terrible attack by Palestinian groups, Israel bombed a police station or office of facility belonging to the Palestinian Authority, to the point where the PA lost its power and status, allowing Hamas to rise to power on its ashes.

Israel’s actions are the actions of an expnsionist power with a colonial mindset. They are not the actions of a party to a conflict which desires peace.

Didn’t Israel pull-out of Gaza in 2006?

“Hamas is not going to be bombed out of power and it certainly won’t be shot out by street to street fighting.”

Everybody seems to be a general nowadays.

“Israel’s actions are the actions of an expnsionist power”

Since 1967 Israel has diminished in size. It has handed over the oil rich Sinai Peninsular to Egypt in exchange for peace, handed over a section of the Arava, to Jordan in exchange for peace, handed over territory in Judea and Samaria to the Palestinian Authority despite the lack of peace, and finally withdrew from Gaza, in exchange for thousands of rockets and the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit.

Israel also withdrew from southern Lebanon, in exchange for Hezbollah’s Katyusha rockets.

This is not the policy of an expansionist power.

Fabian, maybe because you can kill soldiers, but killing ideas is much harder… and not to mention er… the will to resist. Ask Pentagon about Iraq: this will to resist was NOT expected. After the military parade, everyone would want a Big Mac and Coca-Colas… Ha! That’s your professional “generals” ;)

I understand Isreal need to protect its civilians from the militant work of Hamas. Fair Enough.

But why :

- Have are they targeting civilian areas?
- How come they are using bunker busting bombs which US use to destroy terrorist hideouts in Afghan mountains ?
- How come US doesn’t say anything about such violence when they can send Ms Rice “expressing concern” over India- Pak tensions when Pak refuses to take any actions against terrorists camps in its soil?

“Adamant though I am about the need to combat Islamist violence, it is hard not to see Western and Israeli policy towards Gaza since Israel’s unilateral withdrawal in 2005 as one huge strategic error. There was the refusal to deal with the Hamas Government elected in January 2006, the siding with Fatah in the subsequent internal dispute, the imposition of an effective blockade on Gaza that amounted to collective punishment. The capacity of Hamas to govern, or fail to govern, in the eyes of the Palestinians was thus never tested. “

This, for me, is the key issue.

We should have no illusions about Hamas. When they don’t get their way, they coup.

But to be discredited, they need to be allowed to rule, and to fail. They need to fail honestly, and in a manner that doesn’t allow them to use Israel as an alibi.

Israel is perfectly entitled to launch attacks that are designed to destroy the arsenal that Hamas has spent the last 6 months ceasefire building up.

But I don’t believe that it is capable of toppling Hamas: either in the short term or the medium term. Only the Palestinians themselves can achieve that.

No stop until Hamas are defeated. Israel doesn’t have to do a ground war in Gaza let them send Fatah in to mop up Hamas and take control. After all, if the intent is to destroy Hamas then who will fill the vacuum anywway?

BTW defeat doesn’t mean all dead it means rendered so impotent it can’t throw out Fatah

“any sympathy that Israel has so far won for the unprovoked attacks on its people will be lost.”

There doesn’t seem to be all that much sympathy,

Absolutely correct.

International opinion will be always be pro-Palestinian, because expressing support for Israel will lead to negative politicial consequences from the Islamic nations. Only nations w/ strong principles (ie. USA and sometimes Czech Republic) will call a spade a spade regarding Palestinian irredentism.

If Israel’s enemy was rational, this could have made sense.

“But to be discredited, they need to be allowed to rule, and to fail. They need to fail honestly, and in a manner that doesn’t allow them to use Israel as an alibi.”

There is no way to “fail honestly”. Always an excuse can be found.

I think that the Palestinian people failed miserably when they elected Hamas. This is just the delayed consequence of electing a party with a genocidal charter.

“Have are they targeting civilian areas?”

Gaza is made up of urban areas where civilians live, and open areas where nobody lives. Hamas live, and store their weapons in the urban areas, in the midst of civilians. They often launch their weapons from urban areas also.

There is no possible way of attacking Hamas and its infrastructure without attacking civilian “areas”

The key thing to remember is that Israel is not attacking civilians themselves, although tragically, and it is tragic, civilians are killed.

Didn’t Israel pull-out of Gaza in 2006?

MSM and progressives don’t realize this, because their brains don’t have memories and instead operate on a tornado of images, catchphrases, and constantly recycled rhetoric.

Sri,

In answer to your questions:

But why :

- Have are they targeting civilian areas?

They are not. Israel is trying to avoid civilian deaths, however Hamas bases itself amongst its population and Gaza is densely populated in any event. Hamas makes full propaganda use of what are effectively human shields, not the worthy actions of an elected government

- How come they are using bunker busting bombs which US use to destroy terrorist hideouts in Afghan mountains ?

Hamas rocket teams and leaders hide in deep, concrete bunkers. The bunker busters are supposedly pretty accurate if you look at the film from the cockpit online. If they do the job, and you are convinced that the job neeeds to be done, then why not use the most effective tool?

- How come US doesn’t say anything about such violence when they can send Ms Rice “expressing concern” over India- Pak tensions when Pak refuses to take any actions against terrorists camps in its soil?

It has said quite a bit.The US regrets unintended civilian deaths in Gaza but recognises Hamas as an obstacle to peace via a two state solution as it rejects Israel’s very existence and carries out rocket (and suicide bomb when possible) attacks on Israeli civilians.

This is my understanding anyway and not intended to be overly partisan.

“Didn’t Israel pull-out of Gaza in 2006?”
2005

I suppose that the Six Day War was also useless since it didn’t topple Nasser or Hafiz al Assad (this seems to be the mantra now, that since Israel cannot topple Hamas, it should stop fighting now). There are many things you can do with a war.

There is no way to “fail honestly”. Always an excuse can be found.

Like incompetence?

On the passage in Aaronovich’s article highlighted by David T, I thought it was quite clear that Hamas themselves made a strategic decision not to allow good governance to be the criterion by which they would be judged with the capture of Gilad Shalit. They calculated that their power rested on ‘resistance’ not governance.

“(this seems to be the mantra now, that since Israel cannot topple Hamas, it should stop fighting now). There are many things you can do with a war.”

True, there may be positive outcomes even if Hamas are not destroyed. Of course there may also be highly negative outcomes.

It is for Israel’s government and generals to weigh up the pros and cons, and for Israel’s electorate to decide if the government has acted wisely, and sadly to suffer the consequences if the government makes the wrong decision.

There’s a curious post on Counterterrorism Blog entitled ‘Ten Top Questions about the ongoing Israel-Hamas confrontation’, by Walid Phares. It’s dated Dec. 28. The most curious thing about it is that is no more and no less than what the title promises: a list of questions, without any answers. If it’s supposed to be some kind of nudge-and-wink code to be understood by initiates only, I’m afraid it’s lost on me. The first and last questions on the list are the ones being raised here at HP:

[Quote]
1. What is Israel’s strategy and goals regarding the ongoing campaign in Gaza. Will it be mostly an air campaign with limited ground action or will it include a vast land campaign as well? What are the tangible goals?

10. If Israel engages further in land operations in Gaza, how far will Hamas go in attacks against Israel and possibly in the West and the United States? [unquote]

If there is to be no land attack at all, then the call-up of reservists, the tank movements and the tough talk by Barak and Ashkenazi are no more than empty bluster. Or is it a double bluff? More likely, by the look of things.

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/12/ten_top_questions_about_the_on.php#trackbacks

He’s right when he says it has been all stick and no carrot.

Isn’t this simply untrue. The unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 which was a huge concession requiring nothing from the Palestinians, only that they not shell Israeli civilians. They couldn’t even do that.

Instead they smuggled weapons, rockets and explosives into Gaza and turned the place into one big launching pad/Jihadi terrorist base who refuse to recognise Israel’s right to exist and continually call for the eradication of Israel. What can you do with people like that?

My feeling is that they won’t launch a full-scale ground invasion. Their experience in southern Lebanon two years ago has rendered that option more problematic. But I don’t think this is neccessarily a good thing for Gaza. The Zionists seem to be choosing their targets even more liberally than normal (universities, mosques, bridges). It seems that their goal is to make Gaza ungovernable in the hope that, for some reason, this will destabilize Hamas. It’s utterly boneheaded and is causing extraordinary suffering for the already poor people of Gaza.

I don’t know if you remember that after the Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the Israelis left the Gaza masterplan and maps in a table, in the crossing, for the Palestinians to pick them up. The maps languished in the crossing for a week because no Palestinian came to retrieve them.

Evil Zionists! How they dare to be helpful!

“They calculated that their power rested on ‘resistance’ not governance”

They did indeed.

The question is: how can that be changed.

Dan S

The Independent article is okay. Of more interest (to me at least) is this comment from one of the commenters:

“We trained the Arab Legion, we didn’t fight on their side in 1948. The “RAF fighters” were flown by Egyptians not by the RAF. You didn’t defeat the British, we just got fed up with your duplicity after all the help we had given you to found your “National Home” in Palestine. If the British hadn’t won the Battle of Britain in 1940 there would have been no Jews left in Europe and certainly no present day Israel. You have a lot to thank us for.”

I think this view is quite widespread in the UK and pervades the coverage of institutions like the BBC. Look at the ludicrous tone of the Sean Rayment (ex British military) piece covered on this blog a few days ago.

MattG

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hUZ1EAo2Q_A

“The question is: how can that be changed.”

How did it change for Saddam and Iraq? The difference here being that Palestinians directly attack Israel on an almost daily basis.

JohnG

Blimey – that is something you don’t see often. Somebody who is STILL a member of the Socialist White Power.

I expect that they’re as rare as Fatah is in Gaza.

There is no way to “fail honestly”. Always an excuse can be found.

Yeah, like Israel’s existence.

“My feeling is that they won’t launch a full-scale ground invasion.”

Callum you may be right.

On the other hand they may launch a ground invasion to try to recover the reputation and future deterrent value lost in the 2006 conflict. Also, some military views were that ground troops went in too late in 2006 after over-reliance on airpower so they may be trying to get in earlier this time. Or maybe they are still pondering the alternatives and the consequences but want their ducks in a row first.

“The Zionists seem to be choosing their targets even more liberally than normal (universities, mosques, bridges).”

Does it hurt that much to just call them Israelis? I guess so but it indicates that all of your comments are partial.

The particular universities are research centres for rockets and explosives. On previous experience in the West Bank and Iraq the mosques are likely safe havens for fighters and their weapons, assuming non-Muslims will not dare touch a “religious” building or risk censure. No taboo against Muslims blowing up mosques (or synagogues or churches) anywhere though… Bridges are blown up to hinder the movement of Hamas fighters and rockets, as if it was not obvious.

Your faux-naif questions seem to indicate that Israel is gunning for civilian targets (currently being used as human shields and propaganda martyrs by Hamas), a nonsense and a lie.

An e-mail I received from the cousin of a friend in Ashkelon

Today is Monday, the sirens and rockets started a little bit before 9:30 AM in Ashkelon. There was a few actual hits this morning. One Arab Labour worker dead, five seriously wounded and 11 slightly wounded where a rocket hit near where our new library is being built in the center of Ashkelon. Many people have been taken to the hospital for shock. The sirens have gone off around 12 times this morning and it is very upsetting for everyone here. The last one ten minutes ago not sure where it hit this time.

As our house shakes and the sirens screech in the quiet morning hours we then hear the booms of the rockets as we wait in our shelters. In the 80’s and 90’s my husband xxxxx remembers travelling up north to visit the confrontation line settlements, who would know that today our home city of Ashkelon would be on the confrontation line. Most of the city’s 120,000 residents remain at home close to shelters, while others continue working. Schools and day care facilities are closed and people are warned to stay indoors. The tension, especially for young families and the elderly is intense.

Our daughter xxxxx is the lobby Manager in the xxxxxxx in Ashkelon and had to go into work as there are many reporters and TV people staying in the hotel. The sirens have gone off 9 times this morning so far. She was driving to work when two sirens went off. She had to jump out of the car and run to shelter. She finally got to work when the siren went off again. She was completely scared, nervous and crying. She was so frightened the rocket would hit some where near her when she was in the car.

The rockets are effecting everyone. Many of our members have been called into the army and many of our members are very involved through the Municipality with the emergency plans. One of our past presidents, was at one of the Municipality stations all of Shabbat and others are working there today.
Is the city prepared? From the point of view of city planning and response yes. This is the time to support our one Masorti Kehillah in Ashkelon Netzach Israel.

We are very supportive of the IDF’s activities as the previous situation could not be allowed to continue, however we are in for continued rocket attacks until this ends.

May G-d be with us and protect us.

One of the mosques attacked was a weapons depot.
Islamists do not share the Christian and Jewish idea that their sacred places are meant to be weapons free.

Ive avoided these comments threads for the last 24 hours or so as they were getting increasingly full of random morons with nothing to say (e.g. the JohnG post above).

But…during that 24 hours Ive been pleased to see the news and hear most of the news coverage.

Most people are aware now that Hamas care nothing for their civilians. They regularly lob missiles into Israel. And they regularly lie to the media.

Most people will also now question ‘the thousands of starving’ in Gaza (not many emaciated bodies on the tv screens) and know its bullshit. Most people now understand that Israel is out of Gaza. They now understand that when palestinians and their cheerleaders talk about ‘the occupation’ they are talking about Israel proper and its existence.

Furthermore Israel is, unlike the lebanon war, answering questions to the media directly.

On LBC this morning, the Israeli Ambassador actually asked the radio host (berating him for bullying/disproportionality) why it was not disproportionate for there to be 30,000 dead Taliban and thousands of dead civilians in Afghanistan, at the cost of maybe 100 or so British soldiers (no civilians) lives. The bloke didn’t know what to say.

It has become apparent to most observers that the people most hoping for a nursery school full of palestinian babies to be hit by an F16 are the palestinians and their cheerleaders. Most people find this distasteful.

MattG

Of course the stick is needed when you are dealing with a truculent group like Hamas

Oh, I just love the mealy-mouthed language of pompous British hacks.
I suppose the Nazis were also a ‘truculent’ group.

Whlist this analysis, like Aaronovitch’s, is heavily biased and full of factual inaccuracies

As opposed to Irie’s renowned even-handedness and meticulous scientific methodology.

But why :
- Have are they targeting civilian areas?

They are not. You should stop getting your news from Iranian TV.

It has become apparent to most observers that the people most hoping for a nursery school full of palestinian babies to be hit by an F16 are the palestinians and their cheerleaders. Most people find this distasteful.

Which is why the IDF should take its time to pick off the rocket launchers, their factories and tunnels, rather than trying to finish the campaign off according to some artificial timetable set by the huffing and puffing of diplomats at the UN. If they do that, there’s a good chance that the international media will get bored and the pressure for a quick cease-fire will dissipate.

People seem to have forgotten that Israel defeated far more deadly suicide-bomber terrorism from the West Bank with the intelligent application of military force. But it took several years to achieve.

Israel’s actions are the actions of an expnsionist power with a colonial mindset

Totally bonkers.

The Zionists seem to be choosing their targets even more liberally than normal

You forgot ‘global capitalist fascist colonialist imperialist ‘running-dog hyena Zionists’.

I notice an absence of the UN stating that they will guarantee a ceasefire by putting UN troops into Gaza and will tackle Hamas if they break a ceasefire.

I notice teh absence of any Arab country who have offered to do the same.

Doesn’t this tell us something?

That no-one except Isrtael cares about Hamas firing rockets because all they have ever done is state that its a bad thing.

While the rest of the World is so morally bankrupt as to tell Israel what to do while it does nothing itself Israel will just do the job for them.

-

BBC continue to push their ‘proportional’ response crap at all and sundry. The BBC could not define what that question means in any sentence without using the word “proportionality’.

And yet the EU and the UN since the mid 1990’s hasn’t really hesitated to prosecute their own wars of human rights as it were. In Kosovo and in Somalia for instance, our moral betters in the west bombed states they had zero involvement in precisely BECAUSE those states were viewed as being oppressed. But in the case of the Palestinians and the Hamas and Gaza despite nearly 50 years of them whining and complaining the west hasn’t yet seen fit to prosecute their war of human rights.

Why do you think that is? Do you imagine inscrutable infinite Jewish power descending on all the western states to suppress their better angels? Do you imagine the ‘Lobby’ is so massive and pervasive they they have de facto control of all the western government?

Or is it because the Palestinians really don’t have a case? Is it because the civilized world tends to frown on terrorist groups who claim victimhood in one breath and proceed to murder women and children, and DEFEND that action as morally righteous and divinely dictated in the next?

Maven

Paranoia is closely related to egotism. You will get over it.

Or is it because the Palestinians really don’t have a case?

They don’t deserve a State for their behaviour. They don’t deserve one because they turned one down. They don’t deserve one because they break all peace deals.

Yet, they will get one because they are like the ASBO kids from a broken home (the one they broke) and who threaten to kill their neighbour unless they get their own way. The social workers feel guilty and are sure they can reform these kids.

Here! Have a State Already! Just leave the Israelis alone!

Do any of you people GENUINELY beleive that Israel is trying to “topple” or “destroy” Hamas, or that they are “doing what they need to do” to protect the people in the South, or do you, like the rest of the world, realise that this has everything to do with the upcoming elections, and that Olmert & Livni are battling it out to show that they can be just as brutal and bloodthirsty as the terrorist supporter Netanyahu…..what a choice for the Israeli electorate….the daughter of a terrorist, or a terrorist supporting racist….wow

Maven

Paranoia is closely related to egotism. You will get over it.

Help!!!! I have absolutely no idea what this means!!!

Is it good?

Is this just some random saying – like opening a Fortune Cookie?

Bob, what a disgraceful attack on democracy!

Is a government, responding to the wishes and needs of it’s people such a dirty concept to you? Is a government realising that it must serve the needs of it’s people if it is to be re-elected constitute an abomination to you?

Defense establishment to recommend 48-hour truce with Hamas

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051234.html

Bob – you are ridiculous. Fuck off.

Shmuel, it was during a 48 hour with truce that Israel started their attacks. Hardly to be trusted, are they?

Do any of you people GENUINELY beleive that Israel is trying to “topple” or “destroy” Hamas, or that they are “doing what they need to do” to protect the people in the South, or do you, like the rest of the world, realise that this has everything to do with the upcoming elections, and that Olmert & Livni are battling it out to show that they can be just as brutal and bloodthirsty as the terrorist supporter Netanyahu…..what a choice for the Israeli electorate….the daughter of a terrorist, or a terrorist supporting racist….wow

Who cares if Livni can out-BiBi, BiBi! She’s better looking, although I understand BiBi wows the chicks!

Has more to do with the Green Light from Obama (my guess) that says “Do it on Bush’s watch and give me a peace I start to negotiate when I start my term”.

Its all BRILLIANT World Sculpting stuff. No-one has actually said Hamas don’t deserve it. All they are doing is tying themselves in knots trying to define ‘proportionality’ – which is an impossible task.

“Response “A” is always proportional to stimulus “B” in some context”

Maven’s First Rule of Proportionality!

Do you realise how powerful that simple rule is in arguing about ‘proportionality?”

What utter bullshit, Latchford. There was no “truce.” There was a lull. One to which Israel had made no commitment whatsoever.

the daughter of a terrorist

This encapsulates Latchford’s pathological view of Jews perfectly.

Is a government realising that it must serve the needs of it’s people if it is to be re-elected constitute an abomination to you?

Insert ‘Jewish’ before ‘government’, and you can answer your own question.

While the rest of the World is so morally bankrupt as to tell Israel what to do while it does nothing itself Israel will just do the job for them

Israel has always done so, despite all the screeching from the antisemites (incl. on this board).

I don’t think that Latchford deserves an answer. He is a provocateur.
Lets give him as much attention as a neo-nazi would get.

Breaking News http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051234.html

Possible truce.

The defense establishment on Tuesday said it would recommend that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert seek out a diplomatic initiative to abate the war against Hamas and embark on a 48-hour truce, before it becomes necessary to begin a significant ground invasion of the Gaza Strip.

Senior defense officials believe that such a diplomatic process need not be a unilateral Israeli procedure, but should rather be based on an initiative originally proposed by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner.

The goal of the temporary calm would be to see if Hamas can abide by the truce and cease firing rockets at Israel.

The initiative is seen as a possibility to cease the operation before sending a massive Israel Defense Forces ground corp into the Gaza Strip.

The government will announce its decision regarding the temporary truce over the coming hours.

Whoops, Shmuel, I didn’t realise you beat me to it. I just dived for the bottom!

“This encapsulates Latchford’s pathological view of Jews perfectly”

Are you suggesting that Eitan Livni was not a terrorist?

what a choice for the Israeli electorate

Indeed, with Netanyahu being wheeled around TV stations making almost precisely arguments, including the ludicrous WWII comparison, as social democrats like Eric Lee and Gene at HP, what a “choice” indeed.

One of the mosques attacked was a weapons depot.
Islamists do not share the Christian and Jewish idea that their sacred places are meant to be weapons free.

They’d stoop to putting a weapons depot in a kindergarten.

Has anyone watched any of the videos of Israeli precision bombs with bomb-cam’s? Many of them went straight through the windows of buildings like we saw in the Gulf War briefings.

My fave is the night-sight cross-hairs over a truck loaded with over 100 missiles being unloaded by five or six Hamas guys. Boom! Poetic justice!

There was another one where they bombed a greenhouse and the secondary explosions proved it was hiding bombs. The same with several smuggling tunnel targets.

Sure look like Israel did its homework.

“Yeah, like Israel’s existence.”

Right. A bunch of rockets that landed harmlessly in the desert until recently is an existential threat to Israel while REAL rockets lobbed into inhabited areas of teh most densely inhabited area of the world are ‘defense’. I think you better rework your ’story’…the current one is ridiculous.

By the way TW at 12.39 and a subsequent post are the work of a clone who is apparently too retarded to debate the facts.

“Has anyone watched any of the videos of Israeli precision bombs with bomb-cam’s? Many of them went straight through the windows of buildings like we saw in the Gulf War briefings.”

You have to be pretty naive to assume IDF videos are reliable.

At least two papers yesterday, The Times and Haaretz, said Khaled Meshaal wanted an immediate cease-fire with Israel. But is he empowered to make decisions on Hamas’ behalf? Will he be the one negotiating with Kouchner? And if not Meshaal, then who?

“I notice an absence of the UN stating that they will guarantee a ceasefire by putting UN troops into Gaza and will tackle Hamas if they break a ceasefire.”

Troops? Israel won’t even allow human rights observers.

“UNITED NATIONS, Dec 26 (IPS) – The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay last week lambasted the Israeli government for detaining and expelling a human rights expert, Richard Falk, who was on a U.N.-mandated assignment to probe the human rights situation in the occupied territories.”

Those who seek to hide there acions probably have something to hide.

Has anyone watched any of the videos of Israeli precision bombs with bomb-cam’s? Many of them went straight through the windows of buildings like we saw in the Gulf War briefings.

Yes, and like the Gulf War briefings only selected video was shown – to be lapped up by the gullible.

You have to be pretty naive to assume IDF videos are reliable.

You’d have to be a nonce to write the words “You have to be pretty naive to assume IDF videos are reliable.” in a sentence at/on 30 December 2008, 4:03 pm.

There’s no logic to my assertion – as there is none to yours.

I suppose you’d have to be naive to believe that planes flew into the Twin Towers or naive to think that the bright thing in the sky is actually millions of miles away.

Troops? Israel won’t even allow human rights observers.

Those who seek to hide there acions probably have something to hide.

Israel would always refuse to allow proven biased, anti-Israel antisemitic scum carry out this work.

Great to see Harry’s Place agreeing with Richard Seymour and challenging those like the defence minister who promised the people of Gaza a shoah.

You have to be pretty naive to assume IDF videos are reliable

And yet you are only too willing to believe everything that shows the Israeli government and military in a bad light.

Has anyone seen this?

“One Solution for World Peace: Wipe Off Israel and Zionism”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/2008/12/024137print.html

Looks like the jihadists are again dreaming of a Juderein world, just like their former Muftis, the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Mufti Hitler.

“They’d stoop to putting a weapons depot in a kindergarten.”

Actually, the IDF has information that the major missile depot of Hamas is under a hospital.

Sorry everyone, Latchford has got loose again. He’s shitting all over the place, I just can’t housetrain the wretched creature.

If anyone can suggest a painless method of disposal (for him I mean, not his droppings), just let me know.

Benjamin

“Yes, and like the Gulf War briefings only selected video was shown – to be lapped up by the gullible.”

How fucking stupid are you?

Videos of dead children are on Sky, BBC, Arab and indeed Israeli TV.

The Israeli Government in turn are showing videos to show that ‘legitimate’ targets are being hit.

Nothing is being lapped up by ‘the gullible’ genius.

The Israeli goverment has no interest in persuading you of anything Benjamin. You are not there to be persuaded. You do not matter.

MattG

Latchford’s owner
30 December 2008, 4:31 pm

“Sorry everyone, Latchford has got loose again. He’s shitting all over the place, I just can’t housetrain the wretched creature.

If anyone can suggest a painless method of disposal (for him I mean, not his droppings), just let me know.”

Get the kettle on Benjamin.

MattG

Hi Fabian

Perhaps you could put a word in to the Israeli PR Machine over
there.

Former Guardian trainee, now erstwhile commenter on HP, Benjamin, is not gullible, hence not fooled by their skullduggery.

MattG

Okay thats my stint for the afternoon.

I just check back a couple of times a day to check that all the anti-Israel brigade are pissed off.

Its a good barometer of how things are going.

MattG

And when I say ‘pissed-off’ I dont mean sad for all the deaths. They are not.

I mean pissed off that people are a little wiser to the big picture now. You know…the occupation, the genocide, the starvation etc etc. They know its not quite how it seems. For example quite a few people now realise that Israel isnt actually in Gaza…and that by ‘occupation’ the Pals and their cheerleaders usually mean Tel Aviv and Haifa. Not Gaza. Its good that they know.

MattG

Yes, and like the Gulf War briefings only selected video was shown – to be lapped up by the gullible.

People are only gullible when you disgree with them. It’s all about power relations chaps

Seamus Milne: “Israel’s onslaught on Gaza is a crime that cannot succeed” – http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/30/israel-and-the-palestinians-middle-east

Haven’t read it yet. Saving this comedy piece for a cup of tea and bit of cake so I can enjoy it.

““One Solution for World Peace: Wipe Off Israel and Zionism””

Only the very stupid look at half of the facts

“A scientific poll allegedly suppressed in Israel last month has found a plurality of Israelis favor transferring the Palestinian population out of Israel instead of implementing Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s plan to withdraw Jewish settlements from Gaza and parts of the West Bank this summer, WorldNetDaily has learned.”

“There’s no logic to my assertion – as there is none to yours.”

Wrong. The difference between you and I is that I believe that both sides are spreading propaganda while you believe in spreading one sides.

Thanks for all the suggestions as to how to get rid of Latchford. So far the most popular one is for him to be kicked to death by the footballers Tal Ben Haim and ‘Yossi’ Benhayoum.

Now that may not be painless, but it would somehow be fitting. I’ll put it up on Youtube. Cheers everyone!

“A scientific poll allegedly suppressed in Israel ”

Amazing. Not only we have a scientific poll, but one that is allegedly suppressed! Oh, those Evil Zionists!

Wait, if we are so evil, why are we suppressing our own evil thoughts from ourselves?

““One Solution for World Peace: Wipe Off Israel and Zionism”

In fact both sides have said they want to wipe out the other. Only the very uninformed or the very biased pretend otherwise.

TW: no. I don’t want to wipe out the Palestinians. Nor any of the Israelis want to do that.
It is only on the Hamas charter that you read genocidal intentions towards the Jews.
Lie down and take some pills.

Let’s see you deny pro-Israeli sources like World Net Daily and presumably you don’t like pro-Arab sources much so that leaves you with what? None? Given your posts that sounds about right.

“Wait, if we are so evil, why are we suppressing our own evil thoughts from ourselves?”

Nobody said your were. Racists concealing their racism is not unusual.

tw no she hasn’t, unless you meant to write “Hamas” instead of “Israel.” For your information here is a timeline of Hamas breaches of the “calm” it says it has upheld. Perhaps it’s finally flipped its collective wig thinks it was blowing bubbles at Israel rather than sending missiles:

Record of violations of the calm since 20 June 2008:

June 24, 2008 – Mortar shell fire; three rocket hits identified in Sderot

June 26 – Rocket hit identified in an open field near Kibbutz Gevim

June 27 – Two mortar shells fired at the Karni crossing

June 28 – Mortar shell fired at the Karni crossing

June 30 – Rocket hit identified near Kibbutz Mefalsim

July 3 – Rocket hit identified in an open field north of Sderot

July 6 – Sniper opened fire on farmers working in the fields of Kibbutz Nahal Oz

July 7 – Mortar shell fired near the Karni crossing

July 8 – Mortar shell landed in an open field in the Eshkol regional council district (northwestern Negev)

July 10 – Two rockets landed in an open field near Kibbutz Gevim.
Two mortar shell hits were identified about three kilometers (1.9 miles) southwest of the Sufa crossing and another west of the village of Holit

July 12 – A rocket exploded in an open area in the Sha’ar Hanegev regional council district in the northwestern Negev

July 13 – Two mortar shells exploded on the Gaza side of the security fence near Kibbutz Nahal Oz

July 15 – Mortar shell landing detected

Aug 6 – A rocket hit was identified near Kissufim.

Aug 9 – A rocket hit was identified in an open field in the Shaar Hanegev Regional Council area.

Aug 11 – A rocket hit was identified near a residential area in Sderot

Aug 15 – A rocket hit was identified near Gevaram near Ashqelon

Aug 17 – A rocket hit was identified near Re’im in the western Negev

Aug 19 – A rocket hit was identified near Nir Am in the western Negev.

Aug 25 – A rocket hit was identified near a community in the western Negev. Several hours later, another rocket hit was identified nearby.

Sept 16 – A rocket hit was identified in a building site about 50 meters from a residential area in Sderot, causing a fire. One resident was treated for shock.

Sept 21 – Israeli security forces detained a terrorist sent by Hamas to infiltrate into Israel through the Egyptian border, abduct IDF soldiers and transfer them to the Gaza Strip to use them as bargaining chips for the release of Palestinian terrorists in Israeli jails.

Sept 30 – One mortar shell was fired during Rosh Hashanah, which fell inside the Gaza Strip.

Oct 21 – A rocket was fired at the western Negev.

Oct 31 – Terrorists tried to lay an explosive device near the security fence north of the Sufa crossing. IDF soldiers approached the terrorists, who fired two anti-tank missiles at them. The force returned their fire and the terrorists escaped.

Since the calm went into effect on 20 June 2008, 177 rockets and 136 mortar shells have been fired from Gaza.

Maven, Shameless has outdone even himself.

The difference between you and I is that I believe that both sides are spreading propaganda while you believe in spreading one sides.

So then why do you never criticise Hamas?

Why does fuckwit Milne continue to spread this lie. “Gaza is Occupied by Israel”

But that is to turn reality on its head. Like the West Bank, the Gaza Strip has been – and continues to be – illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. Despite the withdrawal of troops and settlements three years ago, Israel maintains complete control of the territory by sea, air and land. And since Hamas won the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel has punished its 1.5 million people with an inhuman blockade of essential supplies, backed by the US and the European Union.

Like any occupied people, the Palestinians have the right to resist, whether they choose to exercise it or not. But there is no right of defence for an illegal occupation – there is an obligation to withdraw comprehensively.

Mattg, I quite agree with you. Pennies are dropping all right.

Thought people might like to see this

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2298296970103726530OBKYUv

I almost feel sorry for the poor mope who was probably told, “Here, if you want to do something useful grab hold of this and wave it around….”

Ed Husain is an HP favourite and director of the The Quilliam Foundation. Or should I say he was a favourite, considering the views expressed here and the views expressed in Husain’s article today in the Guardian.

“It is only on the Hamas charter that you read ”

Like most uninformed people, you aren’t very up to date. Hamas as said on numerous occasions that it would stop the armed struggle if Israel stopped the occupation and withdrew to 1967 borders. The fact that you pretend otherwisde means you are either stupid or hopelessly biased.

““Gaza is Occupied by Israel”

Not too far off the mark given that Israel runs it like the worlds largest prison.

Hey Yohoho, where are the Israeli actions? Like I said anyone who considers only half the facts is a fool. That would seem to include you.

Gordon you silly bugger, the way to win the war against Hamas is to win it. Whether or not the Arab world is sympathetic is irrelevant.

Why do lefty morons always think their stupid emotions are what’s important? As an American I simply don’t want the approval of Europe etc. You people rant and rave and I wouldn’t lift a single finger to change American policy to please you. You don’t count. Same with the Arabs and Israel. She should do what it takes to bring peace, NOT stay the victim so her enemies feel sorry for her.

Great to see Harry’s Place agreeing with Richard Seymour and challenging those like the defence minister who promised the people of Gaza a shoah.

In my experience, the Green Party is filled with anti-semitic scum. Derek Wall isn’t disabusing me of that notion.

TW, not even you believe in what you say.

Hamas as said on numerous occasions that it would stop the armed struggle if Israel stopped the occupation and withdrew to 1967 borders.

What the fuck? You liar. Hamas has denied that over and over again, recently too.

What universe do you live in?

I was right. Milne’s article should be done by French and Saunders or Brand & Woss!

Actually, the IDF has information that the major missile depot of Hamas is under a hospital.

Really!?

Must be some sort of novel ‘wellness’ campaign.

The FIRST Ceasefire Breach for Dummies (this includes you yohoho)

The ceasefire which was brokered by Egypt in June held for a week until June 24 when it was breeched by the IDF in a West Bank raid killing two Palestinians, one an innocent university student and one a member of Islamic Jihad.

Hamas respondrf with 50 rocket firings over the following days killing no one.

“What the fuck? You liar. Hamas has denied that over and over again, recently too.”

One with newspapers, unlike you retard. In fact they’ve been saying it for nearly three years..only to be ignored by Israel. I suggest you learn the facts before beating your gums

One of the latest

JPost.com » Middle East » Article

Apr 2, 2008 11:55 | Updated Apr 3, 2008 3:27
Mashaal: We accept state on ‘67 borders
By JPOST.COM STAFF

“Hamas agrees to a Palestinian state established along the 1967 borders, exiled Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal says. “

Just as both Labour and Tory former Cabinet Ministers are among those who have told me to my face not to blog, even in jest, about any scheme to conscript our least accomplished 16-year-old boys directly into the Israeli Defence Force (”If the wrong person reads that, then it will happen” – and they were not joking), so both Labour and Tory former Cabinet Ministers are among those who have told me to my face that “everyone” knows that David Miliband is a joint British-Israeli citizen.

Well, under the current circumstances, that might not be such a bad thing. Having an Israeli – a classic secular Ashkenazi nationalist who has a Marxist background – as Foreign Secretary might be just the balance that we need to a Prime Minister who appears to be a Dispensationalist.

That is not as improbable as it sounds: if anything, it is “Christian Zionism” among the more-or-less Pentecostal that is bizarre; J N Darby came out of the Calvinistic wing of the Church of Ireland, and C I Scofield was a Congregationalist.

Up to a point, you can negotiate with a classic secular Ashkenazi nationalist who has a Marxist background. But you cannot negotiate at all with a Dispensationalist, who in any case only wants all the Jews to be gathered together in one place so that they can be destroyed.

Although any civilian deaths are horrendous I don’t think that Israel should stop yet. I believe it should continue shelling until Hamas is literally on its knees not least because if the situations were reversed Hamas would not stop until it had killed every Israeli:

Hamas as an organisation has all the characteristics of malignant narcissism. It is incapable of taking responsibility for its actions and equally incapable of introspection as to cause and effect in respect of its own actions; it is manipulative and has no hesitation in lying; it is overweeningly grandiose to the extent that it has lost contact with reality; it is utterly conscienceless; it believes that international law in respect of the conduct of war does not apply to it (pace its use of its own people as human shields); it lacks empathy even for its people’s suffering which it has brought about but is willing to use that to further its aims; it has an exaggerated sense of entitlement which means that it expects to be yielded to as of right.

It is so puffed up that its collective sense of self is brittle and thin and easily punctured, and when that happened it led to Hamas experiencing narcissistic injury. It could not believe that Israel would behave like it and was utterly shocked that it could be attacked at all.

No, I am sorry to have to say it but what is needed is for Israel to consolidate its advantage by dealing out more of the same.

Maven, don’t forget that Fuckwit Milne must be suffering colossal cognitive dissonance right now because Israel’s actions are not being condemned in the shrill tones he uses. Most newspapers bemoan the loss of civilian life but are blaming Hamas more than Israel for it. That being the case Fuckwit Milne is forced to consider (and to try to deny to himself) that his mindless support for Hamas might be misplaced, and he can’t stand even the thought of that so he entrenches more deeply – in fact he’s behaving a lot like his heroes in Hamas – behind his cognitively distorted view of events – which will continue to be challenged because Israel will get the better of Hamas – and with any luck at all he will disappear up his own fundament.

I got some photos earlier which showed Israeli rescue of and care for Palestinians buried in the tunnels they had blown up. Hamas would have been waiting with machine guns had the boot been on the other foot.

“Hamas respondrf with 50 rocket firings over the following days killing no one.”

Nothing less than 50 war crimes!

TW
Like most uninformed people, you aren’t very up to date. What Hamas really said on numerous occasions that it would make lull in the armed struggle if Israel stopped the occupation and withdrew to 1967 borders.

Callum – how do you of the bleeding heart tendency convince yourself that people are moved by your wailings over the suffering poor people of Gaza, or in fact over any victims of the running dogs of capitalism? Do you think that we haven’t yet seen enough of shamming lefties not to be fooled any longer?

“TW, not even you believe in what you say.”

Vague claims about nothing, the only weapon of the intellectually handicapped.

TW they also make speeches saying the exact opposite.

Moron

“TW
Like most uninformed people, you aren’t very up to date. What Hamas really said on numerous occasions that it would make lull in the armed struggle if Israel stopped the occupation and withdrew to 1967 borders.

First he claims I’m wrong and when that’s shown to be bs he tries to jump to another lilly pad.

Like Israel, Hamas has made many contradictory statements. The fact that you quote only those involving the destruction of Israel proves only how devious and immature you are.

“Hamas agrees to a Palestinian state established along the 1967 borders, exiled Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal says. “

TW, you are a duplicitous lying cunt.

The FULL quote is:-

The prisoners’ document, also known as the National Reconciliation Document, was drafted by members of different Palestinian factions including Fatah and Hamas, held in an Israeli prison. It calls for the “establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital on all the territories occupied in 1967,” but does not explicitly recognize Israel’s right to exist within its pre-1967 borders.

Meaning that we will NEVER recognise Israel but can we have some land please on borders which were never recognised anyway. Or, I know we are sad defeated shits who tried to kill you all so can we have everything reset to ground zero and start again!

Lying cunts like you should be banned. I don’t mind a difference of opinion but I do mind liars who deliberately lie by truncating quotes.

(Pardon my French everyone)

Do HP commentators unequivically condemn the targetting of the main Palestinian university in Gaza for destruction by the Israeli State. Yes or No answers will do.

“As an American I simply don’t want the approval of Europe etc.”

Right the rest of the world doesn’t matter. The Nazis made similar claims in the ’30’s, They argued on the basis of Aryan superiority. What’s your excuse?

TW

“Hey Yohoho, where are the Israeli actions? Like I said anyone who considers only half the facts is a fool. That would seem to include you.”

Hey TW someone can consider all the facts and still be a fool. That includes you.

Anyone who thinks that Israel runs Gaza has no need for facts. You just make things up as you go along.

Maven, oh dear, it sounds as if you know that you have lost.

As a comment over on my blog puts it, Obama has shown that you can win first the Democratic nomination and then the Presidency itself specifically by running against the Israel Lobby.

Yes, he then went and appointed Emanuel and Clinton anyway. But that was before this. And he is the President (who wants a second term), not either of them.

“but does not explicitly recognize Israel’s right to exist within its pre-1967 borders.”

Only someone with the intellect of a dead sheep would equate the lack of an explicit recognition to a refusal to recognize.

“Hey TW someone can consider all the facts and still be a fool. That includes you. ”

True. But someone who ignores half the facts is guaranteed to be a fool.

Hey johng, how many times have you been in Sderot? Ashkelon? Ashdod? Tel Aviv? No? Ok, I guess Barcelona will do.

Maven, oh dear, it sounds as if you know that you have lost.

As a comment over on my blog puts it, Obama has shown that you can win first the Democratic nomination and then the Presidency itself specifically by running against the Israel Lobby.

You dumb ass! “Obama, The First Jewish President” look it up. His sponsors know too much about Obama to let him go A-rab!

“Running against the Israel Lobby!?”. Obama to AIPAC “A Jerusalem undivided!”

Obama on Sderot

He expressed his admiration for the citizens of Sderot who remained in place even though their homes had come under fire. “Israelis must not suffer a threat to their lives, to their schools,” he said, adding that “if missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that.”

Obama is in the bag. He knows how he got to be President and he’s not going to alienate it.

Yes, he then went and appointed Emanuel and Clinton anyway. But that was before this. And he is the President (who wants a second term), not either of them.

Dumb Ass! Emanuel is actually MORE Peace Now! than Likud.

Gene, come here and trash this midget brain for dissing our mate Obama. (Maybe I did it anyway)

Got a blog? I’m too old to use it I suspect.

Me lose? I never argue anything I can’t win.

Move over Aristotle, here’s some dead sheep logic.

“does not explicitly recognize Israel’s right to exist within its pre-1967 borders”

which after hitting the dead sheep bimbo button translates to…

“Meaning that we will NEVER recognise Israel”

Unbelievable…

SayWhat??:

Sublime…..neatly combining illiteracy and the genocidal inclinations of the morally destitute.
Dress sense is so last year.

“but does not explicitly recognize Israel’s right to exist within its pre-1967 borders.”

Only someone with the intellect of a dead sheep would equate the lack of an explicit recognition to a refusal to recognize.

Baaaa!!!

TW, you play a great game as a troll but I think it would be better if you didn’t make up all this anti-Israel stuff to make the anti-Israel side look bad. They do that without your help.

I can see the subtle clue here in the slightly disguised humour which equates to arguing that someone who says “No!” has not actually said “Not Yes!”.

Really, best stop it because it disrupts things for quality posters. Had your fun and you took us in but loz it!

“TW they also make speeches saying the exact opposite.”

Hamas makes contradictory statements as do most political organizations including ther Israelis. The dead sheep crowd is different however, they use 20 year old quotes to argue that Hamas doesn’t want peace while ignoring contemporary quotes to the contrary.

“TW, you play a great game as a troll but I think it would be better if you didn’t make up all this anti-Israel stuff to make the anti-Israel side look bad. They do that without your help.

I can see the subtle clue here in the slightly disguised humour which equates to arguing that someone who says “No!” has not actually said “Not Yes!”.

Really, best stop it because it disrupts things for quality posters. Had your fun and you took us in but loz it!”

The number of facts per 1000 words: 0

“Really, best stop it because it disrupts things for quality posters. ”

There aren’t very many quality posters, most are just vacuous cheerleaders like you.

Gene, come here and trash this midget brain for dissing our mate Obama.

Give hima break. I don’t think Gene wants to discuss Democrat politics right now, what with the fiasco of Caroline Kennedy’s pitch for the Senate, and the chutzpah of Blagojevich appointing Obama’s successor this afternoon. Not a good day to think back on those high hopes of just a few months ago.

Just as both Labour and Tory former Cabinet Ministers are among those who have told me to my face not to blog, even in jest, about any scheme to conscript our least accomplished 16-year-old boys directly into the Israeli Defence Force

That’s some powerful ganja.

“if missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that.”

I would assume this would be even more true if the missiles were of the quality and quantity of those falling on the Gazans,

“Hey johng, how many times have you been in Sderot? Ashkelon? Ashdod? Tel Aviv? No? Ok, I guess Barcelona will do.”

I may be wrong but I somehow doubt Fabien will hold off any criticism of Iran until he takes the grand tour.

Are you suggesting that Eitan Livni was not a terrorist?

On Fabian’s advice, I will not answer that particular question because I don’t believe you are capable of debating the point without spewing your well known … errr … love for Jews.

My point was a different one: your screeching characterisation of an Israeli politician by whar her father may or may not have done, is a perfect illustration of your agenda where Jews are concerned. And it is 100% pathological.

I would assume this would be even more true if the missiles were of the quality and quantity of those falling on the Gazans

This gives a new meaning to the word ’stupid’. Israelis, including children, were killed by missiles from Gaza – without any provocation.

“He knows how he got to be President ”

On the votes of economically populist, morally and socially conservative foreign policy realists. The people who voted for his economic and foreign policies (if only in the absence of anything more left-wing this year) while simultaneously voting to reaffirm traditional marriage in California and Florida, voting to ban legal discrimination against working-class white men in Colorado, voting not to liberalise gambling in Missouri or Ohio, and being pillars of (especially) the black and Catholic churches.

“and he’s not going to alienate it”

He has been going out of his way to alienate them from day one – Gates, Clinton, Jones, Kirk… I don’t know why. But this might very well be the tipping point. They are not pro-Israeli. They are not pro-Palestinian, either. They are pro-American. They know perfectly well that they are paying for every bomb being dropped by Israel. And they know perfectly well that they do not currently have the money to spare.

I may be wrong but I somehow doubt Fabien will hold off any criticism of Iran until he takes the grand tour

Equally stupid. The Iranians proudly show off their barbarity as regards raped girls and gays: they glory in it. The facts are not in dispute.

On the other hand, JohnG and his ilk display their ignorance about the facts in Israel every time they open their mouths.

“No stop until Hamas are defeated. ”

Cheerleaders are not the most astute observers.

“The army doesn’t even have the pretense of neutralizing Hamas’ ability to launch rockets. We have tried that before and failed,” said Alon Ben-David, military correspondent for Israel’s Channel 10 television.

“This operation,” he explained, “is directed at Hamas’ motivation to fire rockets at Israel rather than its actual ability to do so.”

I think the a 48 hour ceasefire now would be in Israels best interests as a ground assault would most likely be a very costly venture for both sides. In this time Israel can demonstrate (again) that it is willing to allow civilian aid into Gaza and Hamas could show that during this time it actually gives a damn about the Gazan civilian population by laying off the rockets and ensuring aid reaches them. Admittedly that may be a bit optimistic but if the chance is not given then things are going to get even more nasty.

As a comment over on my blog puts it

Oooooh, the man has a blog – it means that he must be a deep thinker.
What some idiot posts on your blog proves exactly eff all.

A bunch of rockets that landed harmlessly in the desert until recently

What a loon. They killed Israeli adults and children.

By the way TW at 12.39 and a subsequent post are the work of a clone who is apparently too retarded to debate the facts.

Remarkably like you, then.

There was a sensible article on the Israeli attack on Gaza from Robert Fisk in the Independent this morning. As usual a voice of sanity and knowledge.

TW, are you on any sort of medication? If so, you should up the dose or you’ll be chewing the carpet soon. Posts in which name calling escalates are a sure sign of an over-fevered imagination at least.

Saywhat?? Thanks for posting that link. Islamists and their supporters are a joyless lot so the wider people post this the better. I might ask my friend to post it on CiF since I’ve been banned from there, and see how long it lasts.

” The Iranians proudly show off their barbarity as regards raped girls and gays: they glory in it. The facts are not in dispute.”

Did I say otherwise? No. Perhaps you should read more carefully. My argument was that you don’t need first-hand experience to criticise something.

by the Israeli State

JohnG is so completely knowledgable, well-informed about Israel from his many trips there, and totally unpompous. The man is so lovable.

Evidently, Nearly Oxfordian, evidently…

You really are enjoying defeat, aren’t you? Hamas has no chance of winning this war, so, with it out of the way, there is going to be, really quite soon now, Arab recognition of Israel within the pre-1967 borders (been de facto the case for years) and a Fatah-run Palestinian state in the West Bank (also de facto the case already) and the Gaza Strip.

Whether anyone (on either side) who would never consider living there likes it or not. You don’t get to dictate the terms any more, Nearly Oxfordian. The people who live there do.

Did I say otherwise? No. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

Nothing wrong with my reading – unlike your ability to follow an argument.

My argument was that you don’t need first-hand experience to criticise something

Knowing the facts might help. The facts about Iran are not in dispute, including by the Iranians. On the other hand, when idiots claim that the ongoing missiles from Gaza over months and years are ‘harmless’ or ‘didn’t kill anyone till recently’, they are either lying or are completely ignorant about the facts. Which one are you?

I have genuinely no idea what you are ranting about, DL, and I doubt that you do. There is no ‘defeat’ for me to enjoy. Syria does NOT ‘recognise’ Israel ‘de facto’. And you have no idea at all what my passport says or where I pay taxes or where I vote or am entitled to vote. In fact, the bit about ‘dictating’ is utterly dumb. Do you personally ‘dictate’ what happens in the UK? If you do, it might explain the current mess, but I suspect that you only imagine that you ‘dictate’ things. There is a name for that.

There was a sensible article on the Israeli attack on Gaza from Robert Fisk in the Independent this morning. As usual a voice of sanity and knowledge

You mean, he only called Israel ‘Nazis’ 3 times?

“Posts in which name calling escalates are a sure sign of an over-fevered imagination at least”

You mean this?

TW: “Only the very stupid look at half of the facts”

That’s not name calling that’s an Axiom and given the quotes below it obviously includes Mintage.

How about this…

TW: A bunch of rockets that landed harmlessly in the desert until recently

Oxfordian: What a loon.

or this

TW: would assume this would be even more true if the missiles were of the quality and quantity of those falling on the Gazans

Oxfordian: This gives a new meaning to the word ’stupid’. Israelis, including children, were killed by missiles from Gaza – without any provocation.

or this…

Maven: TW, you are a duplicitous lying cunt.

Poor Nearly Oxfordian. Without Hamas in Gaza and the equally anti-Israeli Judean People’s Front (or is the People’s Front of Judea?) in the West Bank, there can be that two-state solution after all. And it was never really supposed to happen, you know. That wasn’t the point of it at all. Poor Nearly Oxfordian.

Anyway, Obamanot, since you mention it, Senator Schlossberg? Merely because she is the daughter of a President notable only for getting shot (an awfully long time ago now) and, er, that’s it? Come on, New York, get you act together.

This seat needs to be filled by a Democrat who enjoys the endorsement of the Working Families Party on the protection of workers and consumers, on fair trade and fair tax, on universal health care, on Social Security, on environmental responsibility, on Civil Rights, and on foreign policy realism, whatever disagreements that party might have with him or her on other issues.

And this seat needs to be filled by a Democrat who enjoys the endorsement of the Conservative Party on family values, on strictly limited and strictly legal immigration, on constitutional checks and balances, on national security, on energy independence, on Second Amendment rights and responsibilities, on America as an English-speaking country, and (one trusts, now that the Bush Era is coming to an end) on foreign policy realism, whatever disagreements that party might have with him or her on other issues.

On that first basis, such a Democrat would also deserve the support of the Green Party. On that second basis, such a Democrat would also deserve the support of the Pro-Life Party. And on that double basis, support for such a Democrat could and should unite the warring factions within the Independence Party.

A run-off ballot for the Senate seat in Georgia? Can you believe it? But Obama’s appointments blew it, and thus blew any chance of a filibuster-proof majority. The third-placed candidate, Allen Buckley, had been a moral and social conservative who wanted to end the wars, dismantle America’s global network of military bases, and repeal the Patriot Act. His voters could have switched to an Obama Democrat. But then Obama announced that he was keeping on Robert Gates while appointing Jim Jones and, wait for it, Hillary Clinton.

There are bridges to be rebuilt as a matter of the utmost urgency. The filling of the New York Senate seat is one of the key ways of doing so.

If Hamas live but can’t fire rockets then they are defeated because they won’t be able to offer the armed resistance they promised. Hamas ONLY exists through terrorism and if they are stopped then they are effectively dead. If their weapons and fighters are dead then they are weakened against Fatah. If their command and control is destroyed then they can’t organise except by insecure mobile phones.

Defeat doen’t mean kill or arrest all Hamas but deplete them so they aren’t a threat. But to have been brought to such a state by Israel, The Jews, is a defeat also for Hamas who will have shown that Allah can’t be on their side and no amount of bellicose Islamist mantras will have saved them.

I will always remember that their compounds disappeared in only five minutes. Hopefully they remember not to poke a lion with a stick in case it roars back.

TW: “My argument was that you don’t need first-hand experience to criticise something

Oxfordian: Knowing the facts might help.

Did I say otherwise? Once again you pretend therfe is a dispute were there is none. Learn to read.

“On the other hand, when idiots claim that the ongoing missiles from Gaza over months and years are ‘harmless’ or ‘didn’t kill anyone till recently’, they are either lying or are completely ignorant about the facts.”

Okay bimbo. Give us YOUR number of Palestinian and Israelis killed by rockets/missiles in the last 6 month and try not to just make stuff up.

“Posts in which name calling escalates are a sure sign of an over-fevered imagination at least”

In what respect do you think that having a fevered imagination is something negative. It trumps autonomic mantra responses any day.

Also, by calling you a .unt I wasn’t name-calling, it was an accurate label IMHO

@Say What??

Just seen your picture, that’s terrific. I want to email it around to some buddies. Any idea where it was taken?

Thanks
JC

Sri-
“How come US doesn’t say anything about such violence when they can send Ms Rice “expressing concern” over India- Pak tensions when Pak refuses to take any actions against terrorists camps in its soil?”

This is a very cogent question. I support Barad’s responses. I’d like to offer another perspective. Ms. Rice has had her face smeared in the mud for putting her prestige into resolving this war. She got nothing back, which is consistent with the treatment Americans have gotten thus far. Frankly, they see the problem is not one of a stubborn Israel, who would receive a little arm twist once in a while to see reason. Hamas is the problem. What has to be done, has to be done.

While there is a history of antipathy between India and Pakistan, they do know how to talk to each other, as long as they don’t get too riled up. When they do, and Mombai is a tragic travesty, affecting both sides, and me, someone outside may be able to soothe tempers. Ms Rice can do just that.

It is true that Pakistan is harboring terrorists, who are freely interspersed amongst refugees from war torn Afghanistan. Many of Pakistan’s people support the terrorists. It is difficult enough being forced to put innocents in danger, even for the most worthy cause. When such an action promotes a civil war, it is excruciating. A diplomatic response is possible here.

With all integrity, she needed to be in one, and out of the other.

>>“As an American I simply don’t want the approval of Europe etc.”

>Right the rest of the world doesn’t matter. The Nazis made similar claims in the ’30’s, They argued on the basis of Aryan superiority. What’s your excuse?

Lol. Representative democracy. Americans run America. It’s not your business.

>>“if missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that.”

>I would assume this would be even more true if the missiles were of the quality and quantity of those falling on the Gazans,

I certainly hope so, since all the Palestinians have to do to stop Israel from bombing them is to stop attacking Israel

Give us YOUR number of Palestinian and Israelis killed by rockets/missiles in the last 6 month and try not to just make stuff up.

I could get quite interested in this answer if you could explain why knowing the answer has any meaning. Comparing casualties is a bit like using the shooting arcade analogy.

I have 100 bullets and you have 100 bullets. I’m a crap shot and hit three targets. You are a great shot and hit sixty targets. My question is why didn’t you stop when you’d hit four targets?

Your answer is because you demand to fire as many shots as I did.

You ain’t gonna argue with that one and you aren’t going to win any argument by getting an answer on casualties.

If I was you I’d bow to some superior intellects and have respect for them. Like me.

Okay bimbo. Give us YOUR number of Palestinian and Israelis killed by rockets/missiles in the last 6 month and try not to just make stuff up.

LOL. Completely bonkers, as Maven has explained already.

And it was never really supposed to happen, you know. That wasn’t the point of it at all. Poor Nearly Oxfordian.

There is a technical name for loons who think they know what I believe was ’supposed’ to happen. Do seek help, there’s a good boy.

Joe Camel and Saywhat??? I would not get over-excited about that photo. It’s a not uncommon slogan used on protests in America (have a look at a similar one at Revolution Muslim. I assume this is done to avoid incitement charges, even with first amendment protection.

TW: A bunch of rockets that landed harmlessly in the desert until recently

Oxfordian: What a loon.

Simple statement of fact. Oops, I forgot: you always do struggle with the concept of facts, as against your febrile rants about a country you know nothing about.

By which I mean, certain deeply unpleasant groups have been using it a bit and that this photo is not the one-off funny mistake that it first appears to be. On re-reading I seem to have suggested that many American protesters are out to get juice. Sorry if that was unclear.

TW: for every “fact” you dredge up to supposedly make your case, other posters on this blog thread have found 10 to make the case for the other side. (e.g. Gaza rocket violations during the “truce,” Hamas charter (still in force no matter what meshal says), Israeli evacuation of settlers and troops from gaza etc.) So this holier-than-thou attitude pretending that only your “facts” matter doesn’t wash, at least not in this blog. maybe you should try selling it somewhere else.

gee i never thought i would feel sorry for nearly flintstonian, but to be mocked by the likes of loony David Lindsay is a fate even he doesn’t deserve.

I want to email it around to some buddies. Any idea where it was taken?

I believe it was taken at a New York demonstration by the so-called Islamic Thinkers Society, an NYC offshoot of the British group Al Muhajiroun.

BTW, thanks for deleting my earlier post (and Benji’s follow up), HP! You can always rely on the “decent Left” to make a mockery of their own self-proclaimed principles.

“So this holier-than-thou attitude pretending that only your “facts” matter doesn’t wash, at least not in this blog. ”

You are deluded. Never did I claim only my facts matter. I have acknowledge that there are facts which put both in a bad light e.g.

TW:In fact both sides have said they want to wipe out the other.

You have yet to do the same which is what makes you a cheerleader.

“TW: for every “fact” you dredge up to supposedly make your case, other posters on this blog thread have found 10 to make the case for the other side.”

As usual cheerleaders are unable to get beyond unsubstantitated claims?

By the way…. not that Nearly Oxfordian (does this mean flunked out of Oxford?) was too cowardly to take up my challenge regarding the number of Israelis and Palestinians killed by rocket/missile power.

“Simple statement of fact.”

The refuge of the fool. When challenged to defend a fact merely repeat that its a fact. That alone is enough to be refused entry to Oxford.

@Gsirrah

Thanks for the link, it turns out to be the self-same placard. The lettering gives it away. Look at the E in DEATH, for instance: each of the three horizontal strokes is drawn at a different angle, and the letter is exactly the same in the revolutionmuslim pix and in the one Says What?? linked.

@Gloves Are Off

Thanks for the information, I’ll include it in my emails. From the pix that Gsirrah linked it was evidently a counterdemonstration by Muslims at a Jewish event commemorating the sixtieth anniversary of Israeli independence earlier this year.

Thank you both.
JC

“LOL. Completely bonkers, as Maven has explained already.”

Failed Oxfordian cowardice on display.

Maven: I have 100 bullets and you have 100 bullets. I’m a crap shot and hit three targets. You are a great shot and hit sixty targets. My question is why didn’t you stop when you’d hit four targets?

This was in response a question as to who was responsible for breaking the ceasefire.

Mavine’s answer? The guys with the astigmatism.

Unbelievable.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1481&Itemid=59

Why is it that cheerleaders* are too cowardly to produce statistics on the number of Israelis and Palistinians killed by rocket/missile fire in the last 6 months?

*Forget Failed Oxfordian and Maven, its beyond their paygrade. Maven actually seems to believe the statement ‘It’s a fact’ is an argument.

So was there no truth after all in the rumour that Israel was prepared to offer Hamas a 48-hour truce? Here’s Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051234.html

The story includes this: “Meanwhile, the Military Intelligence assessed Tuesday that the air offensive has destroyed one-third of the Hamas rocket arsenal, Channel 10 television reported.”

Only a third? Two-thirds still available and in working order? Not good.

“Only a third? Two-thirds still available and in working order? Not good.”

It’s even worse when you factor in the probability that its IDF propaganda.

Maven, read my post again, and particularly the bit where I addressed it to TW…. Unless you are TW God forbid…

Waseem,

It’s a great, however dark, satire. Who knows how much is really manipulated to keep us entertained. Let’s hope this is more than Batman and the Joker- each needing the other to survive.

Even as I am ready for war, I pray for peace.

TW,

You are a bore.

“TW, are you on any sort of medication? If so, you should up the dose or you’ll be chewing the carpet soon. Posts in which name calling escalates are a sure sign of an over-fevered imagination at least.”

What did we learn from this post? Only that posts suggesting others are on medicataion isn’t name-calling in pinheadland.

“TW,

You are a bore.”

Those unable to understand or construct aruments often react that way. It doesn’t bother me however, my goal was never to entertain imbeciles.

TW: you’re obviously a bit of an egomaniac who loves hearing his own voice (so to speak), but your “point” about number of deaths is, sad to say, irrelevant (sad for the dead, that is). Obviously, the Israelis are more powerful (thank god) and can do more damage. The German V-1s and V-2s didn’t kill nearly as many Londoners as the Brits and Americans killed Germans by bombing; does that make the Germans the good guys? come on, even you’re not that dumb. once you get past all the rhetoric, the bottom line is this: the gazans and their govt, whether hamas or fatah, could have devoted their energies to creating a functional state and improving the lives of their people; instead, they chose to devote much of their energy to firing rockets at israelis. That was their choice and they are paying for it. As an Egyptian commentator noted: If you can’t kill the wolf, you shouldn’t pull its tail. now how can you seriously argue with that?

and by the way, I think your goal here IS to entertain imbeciles, given the inordinately huge quantity of your posts.

Lol.

Whlist this analysis, like Aaronovitch’s, is heavily biased and full of factual inaccuracies, its conclusion is at least consistent with what I’ve been saying since this thing started…….

What sort of topsy-turvy approach to research allows conclusions to be drawn from methodology taken to be fatally flawed? An opportunistic fundamentally untrustworthy approach, of course……

Just about sums up our approaches to climate change, multicultralism, islamism and most other trendy isms.

Has anyone watched any of the videos of Israeli precision bombs with bomb-cam’s? Many of them went straight through the windows of buildings like we saw in the Gulf War briefings.

My fave is the night-sight cross-hairs over a truck loaded with over 100 missiles being unloaded by five or six Hamas guys. Boom! Poetic justice!

You have serious psychological problems.
To enjoy the deaths of other humans shows psychotic tendencies.
Also those are pictures they want you to see, not the ones that killed innocents

Obviously, the Israelis are more powerful (thank god) and can do more damage. The German V-1s and V-2s didn’t kill nearly as many Londoners as the Brits and Americans killed Germans by bombing; does that make the Germans the good guys? Come on, even you’re not that dumb. Once you get past all the rhetoric,
Doesn’t make the Allies good guys either, for instance Dresden?

the bottom line is this: the gazans and their govt, whether hamas or fatah, could have devoted their energies to creating a functional state and improving the lives of their people; instead, they chose to devote much of their energy to firing rockets at israelis. That was their choice and they are paying for it.

Also you find most Palestinians, like most Brits, like most Israelis devote most of the energy into their work and bringing up families.
Only paranoid war mongering fools like you, think different

What an insulting creep you are. I was of course referring to the Gaza government, not the people. Though it’s fair to say that since they elected Hamas, they do share some responsibility.

War mongering fool? How would you know? That would be as silly as me calling you a brain-dead faux peacenik. no wait, that isn’t silly at all.

and my faux peacenik friend, what on earth was in my original post that would make you call me “paranoid.” Is that just a stock word you use for individuals with different views, or is it “paranoid” to be concerned about dozens of rockets launched daily? As steely dan once wrote, only a fool would say that.

By the tone of your posts you obviously suffer from Jerusalem Syndrome.
So you vote for an organisation, you deserve to die.
Interesting.
I would rather be peacenick than armchair warrior coward like yourself . Who enjoys conflict because of his empty life.

Statement by Prof. Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.

Those violations include:

Collective punishment – the entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.

Targeting civilians – the airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.

Disproportionate military response – the airstrikes have not only destroyed every police and security office of Gaza’s elected government, but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians; at least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from the university.

Earlier Israeli actions, specifically the complete sealing off of entry and exit to and from the Gaza Strip, have led to severe shortages of medicine and fuel (as well as food), resulting in the inability of ambulances to respond to the injured, the inability of hospitals to adequately provide medicine or necessary equipment for the injured, and the inability of Gaza’s besieged doctors and other medical workers to sufficiently treat the victims.

Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response. I note that Israel’s escalating military assaults have not made Israeli civilians safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed today after the upsurge of Israeli violence is the first in over a year.

Israel has also ignored recent Hamas’ diplomatic initiatives to reestablish the truce or ceasefire since its expiration on 26 December.

The Israeli airstrikes today, and the catastrophic human toll that they caused, challenge those countries that have been and remain complicit, either directly or indirectly, in Israel’s violations of international law. That complicity includes those countries knowingly providing the military equipment including warplanes and missiles used in these illegal attacks, as well as those countries who have supported and participated in the siege of Gaza that itself has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.

I remind all member states of the United Nations that the UN continues to be bound to an independent obligation to protect any civilian population facing massive violations of international humanitarian law – regardless of what country may be responsible for those violations. I call on all Member States, as well as officials and every relevant organ of the United Nations system, to move on an emergency basis not only to condemn Israel’s serious violations, but to develop new approaches to providing real protection for the Palestinian people.

“armchair warrior coward” “empty life”: ah the psychologist speaks. wonder where you got your degree or qualifications. anyway, people don’t deserve to die because of who they vote for. however, if they vote for a govt that then decides to relentlessly flick bombs at its neighbor, who is much stronger than it, they might expect a harsh response. where’s the armchair warrior in that; where’s the coward? instead of flicking off rockets at israel (which you seem to approve of since you haven’t said boo against it, you armchair warrior coward you), why doesn’t the gaza “govt” negotiate? And why did they pull the tail of the Israeli wolf when they couldn’t kill it? you never did answer that one, which is the key to the entire affair?

Gosh, Peter Falk, you shure do know thet intulektal stuff.

Does all thet mean thet them Jews are gittin too big fer ther britches, and need a good switchin?

or fatah, could have devoted their energies to creating a functional state and improving the lives of their people; instead, they chose to devote much of their energy to firing rockets at israelis. That was their choice and they are paying for it.

You stupid silly man!
Mamma Mia, here I go again, I believe in angels something good in everyone!