Harry's Place

Surely, after all these years posting at Harry’s Place, this doesn’t surprise you?

The anti-Israel crowd is filled with anti-Semites. They come out at every protest, even when Israel has nothing to do with whatever they’re protesting. It’s a corollary to Godwin’s Law: Everywhere Israel is mentioned, the probability of discourse devolving into anti-Semitism equals 1.

Just read the comments on any online media source. Or unmoderated blog comments.

They’re always there.

Ironic really. Gene points to the most genocidal supporters (its a word that’s used a lot at HP), but who actually kills the most people?

If I attended a pro-Israel demonstration, and I heard someone shout “Death to Arabs,”

In Israel it is very common for people to shout “Death to Arabs.” In fact it’s the Beitar Yerushalayim’s supporters’ slogan. It’s also very commonly seen painted on the walls as a graffiti (see here). Care to explain the actions you’re taking to confront those haters?

So I wish someone at an ANSWER-sponsored anti-Israel demonstration in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, had done something similar to the young woman who shouted “Go back to the ovens”

Curiously, “go back to the ovens” has sometimes been shouted by Sephardi Israelis at Ashkenazi Israelis.

But all these Palestinians seemed to be rather extremist. At 2:03 a woman shouts “Nuke, nuke Israel! There is no Israel!” Why they didn’t confront each other is, thus, a rather stupid question.

“….but who actually kills the most people?” Benjamin

Benjy doesn’t have the guts to say that Jews kill more people than….(fill in the blank.)

What a coward.

Yes, benjy, Jews killed more people in the last hundred years than Germans, Russians, Britons, Arabs, Chinese, Indians/Pakistanis, Greek/Turks, I could go on the list is long.

Let’s take the number of people killed by Jihadists: in Algeria alone tens of thousands of people were butchered.

Hence when a Jihadist yells “go back to the ovens” at Jews us Jews better listen. Benjy is of course on the side of the Jihadist who yelled her hatred.

Benjy needs to start posting on a more friendly site to his views. I suggest some jihadist or david Duke’s web site.

“In Israel it is very common for people to shout “Death to Arabs.””

When was the last time this ARgentian Jewhater was in Israel.

Tell me about Argentians killing Jews, HB?

This is what our Argentean pogromchik “Hasbara Buster” keeps not mentioning. He doesn’t want to talk about the Jew hatred in his own country, a hatred in which he participates:

From the BBC:

“Argentina marks 1994 bomb attack” (Note: it’s 15 years and counting)

“Argentines have been marking the anniversary of the 1994 bombing of a Jewish centre in Buenos Aires that left 85 people dead and about 300 injured.
Thousands of mourners gathered to honour the dead and called once again for investigations to be stepped up and those responsible brought to justice.

Nobody has ever been convicted, but the current government has said it is determined to secure justice.

A prosecutor last year blamed Hezbollah for the blast, which the group denied.

A siren sounded at the precise time the bomb exploded at 0953 (1253 GMT).

People lit candles, laid roses and held aloft photographs of the victims as the names of the 85 dead were read out.

The blast on 18 July 1994 reduced the seven-storey Jewish-Argentine Mutual Association (AMIA) community centre in Buenos Aires to rubble.

The scale of death and destruction left Argentina’s 200,000-strong Jewish community, Latin America’s largest, in shock.

“We were looking for justice but we found impunity,” read a large banner at Tuesday’s ceremony.

Luis Czyczewsky, whose daughter died in the blast, called for more to be done – not only for the crime to be solved but for Argentina to take a stronger stance against terrorism.

“Today we are left with a sense of impotence, with our anger,” he told the crowd.

“Once again, impunity is winning the battle.”

Unsolved

Over the years, the case has been marked by rumours of cover-ups and accusations of incompetence but little in the way of hard evidence.

Minor figures, including a policeman who sold the van used in the attack have been named, but no-one has been convicted.

Many accused previous governments of doing too little to find the perpetrators. “

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5190892.stm

The current administration of President Nestor Kirchner has expressed a firm desire to produce results but so far there has been little obvious progress, says the BBC’s South America correspondent Daniel Schweimler.

Mr Kirchner’s cabinet chief, Alberto Fernandez, said that the courts would do all they could to find the attackers.

Members of the US-based World Jewish Congress (WJC) were to meet the president after the commemorations to add their voices to calls for the authorities to do more.

Local Jewish groups have long said the bombing bore the hallmarks of Iranian-backed Islamic militants.

Iran has repeatedly and vehemently denied any involvement in the attack.

Last November, an Argentine prosecutor said a member of the Islamic militant group, Hezbollah, was behind the attack and had been identified in a joint effort by Argentine intelligence and the FBI.

But Hezbollah said that the man, Ibrahim Hussein Berro, had died in southern Lebanon while fighting Israel.

The 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, which killed 29 people, also remains unsolved.”

Don’t talk to me about the Israel-Palestinian conflict, fuck head, talk about Argentinean attacks on Jews.

Here is another example of anti-Semitic chants at North American Gaza protests.

“Later it took a line of police to protect the pro-Israel demonstrators from what turned into a mob.”

Rightfully, as the scum are celebrating the death of voer 400 Palestinians. They are brave in a distance, bombing Gaza with high technology and pretending to be brave, but then in person they are cowards who hide behind police lines

Pathetic. I wish the “mob” had set them all on fire.

Benjy doesn’t have the guts to say that Jews kill more people than….(fill in the blank.)

No. I am talking about the military forces of Israel in the current conflict, against Hamas.

I would be very surprised if Israel’s army, one of the most effective and modern armies in the world, did not kill more people than Hamas.

“No. I am talking about the military forces of Israel in the current conflict, against Hamas.”

It isn’t a questions of numbers is it?

That the easy calculus which the media loves.

If one army (regular or not) starts a war and loses more people than the defending army is the army that loses less people at fault?

Besides Hamas claims that it will win because it loves death more than life. Why can’t people like you look at whole picture?

Hence when a Jihadist yells “go back to the ovens” at Jews us Jews better listen. Benjy is of course on the side of the Jihadist who yelled her hatred.

Benjy needs to start posting on a more friendly site to his views. I suggest some jihadist or david Duke’s web site

An amusingly over the top response to the irony I noted. I am not sure why the truth disconcerts you in such a way. Whilst Gene points to extremists amongst the supporters of Palestine, Israel kills more innocent civilians than Hamas does in this conflict – and by a wide margin.

Livni complains that Israel’s image is poor outside the USA; however, as the dead bodies pile up, and the scenes of carnage are beamed around the world (despite Israel’s attempts to keep the media out), and as Israel will inevitably fail, it is virtually inevitable that the country’s image is further damaged. Israel’s leadership is living in a fantasy world.

Still, I am sure they expect solid support from the most consistently pro-Israeli population in the world: that of the USA. But they would be wrong. According to Rasmussen, support for the attack in the US is running at only 44%, with 41% against.

“If one army (regular or not) starts a war and loses more people than the defending army is the army that loses less people at fault?”

Hamas did not start any war, Israel broke the current ceasefire in November and has been placing Gaza under seige for 3 years.

It isn’t a questions of numbers is it?

Not when it comes to Palestinians, apparently. However, I am regularly hear figures quoted by members of the Israeli political establishment. The number of people terrorised by rocket attacks, the numbers killed or injured, the numbers under threat from the range of rockets.

Numbers are important; you’ll find that each side count their own dead, injured or under threat very carefully, and publicise those numbers. The media count the dead or injured of both sides because some of us are interested on those numbers from both sides. Then we’ll quietly note the ironies. War is sad, and its sometimes bitterly ironic.

Benjamin, are you doing this deliberately? Is it some form of Jew-baiting? If so, the other correspondents of HP are falling helplessly into your trap by getting very agitated.

On the present subject you stick to your narrow perspective and just keep repeating it like a gramophone record that’s got stuck, ignoring of wider perspectives. The argument about who’s killing more people in this particular conflict is futile, if you don’t ask yourself why. How many people would be killed if Israel did not defend itself? If you don’t believe Israel has the right to exist, then say so.

You are a brght boy. May your brightness be somewhat more enriched in the New Year.

Arabs shouting death to Jews in Israel is understandable given 60 years of war. Same with Jews shouting death to Arabs in Israel after terrorist attacks.

But I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts (always wanted to use that expression) that you’ll never hear Jews in a pro-israel demostration in North America Europe or Latin America shouting death to Arabs. Too bad we obviously can’t say that about the other side. And no matter what Benjamin or HB say, that is an unalterable fact.

Benji, i’m disappointed, i thought you were more thoughtful than that. Who kills more people? well off the top of my head, the sudanese, congolese, russians, lord’s army,etc. etc. but that really isn’t the point. first, 75-90%, depending on whose numbers you believe, are hamas operatives, not civilians. 2nd, the rockets from gaza would surely kill more Israelis if they were able; that is their intent. 3rd, the allies killed far more innocent german civilians than vice versa. if hamas was so worried about its civilians, which it clearly isn’t, it would clear them out of warzones, rather than stockpile weapons in civilian areas. but you know all that. so what’s really behind this “numbers” game you’re playing?

Is it some form of Jew-baiting?

Being critical of Israel’s military operation is not Jew baiting. Nor is is raising the issue of civilian casualties. Clearly, in the current operation, many more Palestinian civilians have been lost than Israeli citizens killed by Hamas.

And, Benji, what difference does it make MORALLY, which countries do or don’t support Israel, or how support of Israel may be dwindling in Imperialist USA (in your view). How many people in our world are really politically mature? Majorities are not necessarily in the right, eg. in antisemitic Germany. You think too much in numbers and too little about the circumstances, in greater depth.

There are many factors involved in the Western politicians views on Israel, Realpolitik among others. Sometimes European politicians are obliged to mouth critical comments on Israel, contrary, I believe to their inner convictions. In any case, if I read correctly, the European Union refused to condemn Israel.

The greatest Evil to arise in our world after Hitler, Fascism and vulgar Communism, is undoubtedly Islamic fundamentalism. Focus your attention on that for a while, and not only on Israel.

well off the top of my head, the sudanese, congolese, russians, lord’s army,etc. etc. but that really isn’t the point

No it’s not, as I was referring to this conflict. Gene was referring to extremists shouting ‘nuke Israel’ etc. I was just pointing out that the Israeli army is rather more effective at killing than Hamas. Which seems rather ironic.

Ah! the stuck gramophone record came back in your reply above to my first letter, Benji.

first, 75-90%, depending on whose numbers you believe, are hamas operatives, not civilians.

Over 60 have been women and children, according to the UN, who do not count adult males as civilians. ‘Hamas operatives’ is a very broad term, which may include civilians. Rayyan was a political leader not a military one. The police are all up for slaughter too apparently, although its not adequately explained how a young chap who joins the police (or Hamas if that is the stipulation to join the police), to avoid unemployment, is deserving to die. However, such human complications are not welcome to be heard.

3rd, the allies killed far more innocent german civilians than vice versa.

Well, that’s all right then! If you compare it with the carnage of the past then it seems like a playground fight. I am sure Israel has a long way to go before it reaches destruction of the carpet bombers. Which was in a very different situation anyway. But moral relativism is employed when convenient I note.

2nd, the rockets from gaza would surely kill more Israelis if they were able; that is their intent.

Well, we can all get very upset about what Hamas intends to do. What is key is its capability and reality. Of course Israel never intends to kill more civilians than Hamas, but more often does, like in this operation. (There are shades of gray here: when a military commander bombs a house to kill a Hamas member he knows he will almost certainly kill innocents. However, he does not target them specifically. This is a better moral position than simply targeting civilians, but its there is still responsibility involved.)

As for hiding in built up areas. Well that may be a problem, which only reflects the fact that Israel is fighting a futile conventional war against a guerrilla force with some popular backing, and with civilian roots too. Sounds familiar, as when Israel failed to disarm or destroy Hezbollah, despite turning parts of Lebanon into rubble.

Israel says Hamas members are now slated for slaughter – that’s office staff, welfare workers, teachers, hospital workers etc – Hamas are civilians too.

“Benjamin, are you doing this deliberately? Is it some form of Jew-baiting? ”

Yes, Felix. You are new here, but Benjamin has been doing this for years. He usually takes a contrarian position that resolves in complete ambiguities, or the exact meaning of words. He likes to do it in threads about Jews, because, you know, we actually experienced the death of 1/3 of our people after years of anti-Jewish propaganda, so we take words more seriously than others.

But he likes to do it also against anybody who thinks that Iraq or Afganistan are better now than in the year 2001.

He gets his kicks from this and he loves that people talk about it. Which I have now done, but only to explain to you, Felix, that you should ignore him.

Best,
Fabián

Lastly: Benjamin is all “no no no, being critical of Israel’s military operation is not Jew baiting” but he does exactly the same when discussing antisemitic incidents not related to Israel.

He is kind of creepy.

or how support of Israel may be dwindling in Imperialist USA (in your view)

I don’t regard the USA as imperialist. I simply noted that its population is more evenly split on this operation at least. Part of the support for Israel in the US rests on it being seen as the plucky underdog, against large undemocratic forces. However, when Hamas wins an election and then tiny Gaza is bombed by a vastly superior military force, Israel’s plucky underdog tag wears a bit thin – quite apart from the other arguments, like Hamas and other groups rocket attacks, which doubtless cause distress and sometimes take lives, but are in military terms not very significant.

Fabian

I can assure you, and I know this without a scintilla of doubt in my mind, that you are more hung up about Jews and such identity than me. It’s absolutely irrelevant to me what religious, cultural, or racial identity Israelis are.

Arabs shouting death to Jews in Israel is understandable given 60 years of war.

Actually, Arabs have been shouting “Death to the Jews” at Jews since long before the state of Israel was established. The war is one which they launched in response to the UN vote of 1947 establishing the state of Israel.

And I don’t think it’s “understandable” however long or terrible a war. Brits did not go marching through the streets shouting “Death to the Germans” when the Blitz was at its worst, nor did the Japanese parade shouting “Death to the Americans” after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

This isn’t “understanding”, it’s apologetics for racist totalitarianism.

Benji loves to burble on about “the truth” while sedulously avoiding one very telling fact: even now the IDF have still not managed to kill as many Palestinians in Gaza as Hamas has killed since it seized power there. Nor do Israeli soldiers do as Hamas operatives are doing at this very moment – going into hospitals, dragging patients from their beds and shooting them dead on the grounds that they are “collaborators”.
Benji is not an anti-Semite, he’s a moron.

Rayyan was a political leader not a military one.

Stop repeating this fallacy, Benji. He was responsible for sending suicide bombers into Israel and was a “political leader” only in the sense that bin Laden is. Nor was there any way of bringing him to trial. Do you oppose attempts to assassinate bin Laden?

His “civilian house” was also a storehouse for weapons, making it a legitimate military target. The IAF gave the residents a 10-minute warning of their impending attack, but he reacted by sending someone onto the roof as a human shield (a tactic which has apparently stopped other bombings). It didn’t work this time.

The police are all up for slaughter too apparently, although its not adequately explained how a young chap who joins the police (or Hamas if that is the stipulation to join the police), to avoid unemployment, is deserving to die. However, such human complications are not welcome to be heard.

Do you seriously believe the Hamas-recruited police in Gaza are apolitical? Hamas is a totalitarian organisation and its police are there to maintain its hold on power as much as fight ordinary crime.

I found particularly interesting photo from the recent ANSWER protests on a friends facebook profile.

http://thecynicaldragon.blogspot.com/2008/12/sign-of-times.html

It seems certain protesters haven’t received the memo about substituting ‘Jewish’ with ‘Zionist’.

Benjamin, why don’t you go to Iran or even to Gaza and braodcast your views, as Ezra Pound did in Fascist Italy? I think Pound was blinded by his hatred of Americam capitalism and probably had some valid critcisms to make. But he was apparently unable to see his mistake in going along with the Mussolini regime.

Unless I have missed something, you refuse absolutely to criticise Islam fundamentalism and to take a serious look at what Hamas are all about. I’ve said this before, but it’s not Israel that brings death on Gaza civilians, but Hamas itself, and then they thrive on the anti-semitic propoganda they obtain. They care much less about their own civilian victims than Israel does.

You seem to state with somewhat sadistic satisfaction the negative consequences, that will accrue, according to you, to Israel from its present actions.

The trouble with your blindly repetitive argumants is that they become boring. I have no doubt that you will repeat them again, unperturbed by any arguments that throw another light on the situation

I don’t feel at al personally hostile to you. It’s the arguments that matter, but not if the get stuck in a cul de sac, which I translate freely as an impenetrable tight arse.

It appears the photographer of this video has dubious views on a number of subjects

Such as what? And just what would Gene expect a “leftist” video diary to show? Perhaps the same with the nasty bits edited out (a la BBC) to sanitise the sentiments of these poor brown victim people, and a pompous Jeremy Bowen type claiming how abused they were?

The guy filmed what happened and then declined to comment on it. This is what conservatives (small ‘c’) do, and what most of our media, including the BBC, used to do before they became infested with Lefties intent on politicising everything. Gene has been wacthing too much PBS, MSNBC and BBC, with their inbred bias, metropolitan liberal values and sanctimonious humbug commentary. He would appear to be unprepared for full, unexpurgated, in your face factual evidence of the threat we face, and that there really are nasty people among the multicultural enclaves that we have allowed to fester in our midst.

And, I wondered, how could I have spent decades thinking that I thought everything was always wrong at the same time that I thought I thought that people were basically good at heart? Which was it? I began to question what I actually thought and found that I do not think that people are basically good at heart; indeed, that view of human nature has both prompted and informed my writing for the last 40 years. I think that people, in circumstances of stress, can behave like swine, and that this, indeed, is not only a fit subject, but the only subject, of drama. – David Mamet, liberal playright.

even now the IDF have still not managed to kill as many Palestinians in Gaza as Hamas has killed since it seized power there.

Er, right. Israel has not killed as many Israelis as Hamas. That’s okay then! Great defence, that. I keep getting this moral relativism thrown at me: first the carpet bombing of WWII, and now Hamas. Remarkable stuff.

How about a complete boycott of Benjamin? If you feel you must read his postings, before replying you only need to hold those fingers over the keyboard, count ten slowly, and then take the fingers away again, EVERY time. The best thing is not to read anything entitled Benjamin, which I did with this threadt and it certainly helps. One you’ve got the hang of it with Benjamin, you can move on to HB and then others.

Josh Scholar for pity’s sake get that benji deleting script working please! Seriously David T, it is a real pain having to scroll through pages of that muppet’s excremental tripe.

Benjamin, in 2002 there were 60 suicide bombing by Hamas and other terrorist organisations inside Israel. Israel responded with military operations in the West Bank which over a period of 3 years reduced the number of suicide bombings to virtually zero. These military operations were aimed at the terror organisations but also killed civilians (e.g. 20 odd in Jenin).

Did you think Israel would be as successful in reducing suicide bombings as they have been? Was what they did justified?

Do you seriously believe the Hamas-recruited police in Gaza are apolitical?

Well, in any totalitarian situation, in places worse than Gaza in that regard, folk do what they need to do to get jobs. They may not be particularly political, but are prepared to play the game to secure employment. Seems a bit rough on some of them being badgered by Hamas and then getting slaughtered by the Israelis for the crime of being a police officer. It’s a particular concern as the Israelis have no clear idea what those individuals they have snuffed out have supposed to have to deserve execution.

Do you oppose attempts to assassinate bin Laden?

I don’t think Rayyan is really directly comparable to Bin Laden. However, I don’t support the assassination of Bin Laden as a first option. I would prefer him to be arrested and put on trial, if possible. although it seems unlikely. I would personally not support the death penalty, but that depends on jurisdiction.

I am one of those old fashioned people who believe that the rule of law, fair trails for everyone (including unsavoury types), and a preference for dealing with wrong doers through the courts are some of things we are actually fighting for in the War on Terror.

Unless I have missed something, you refuse absolutely to criticise Islam fundamentalism and to take a serious look at what Hamas are all about.

Well, I don’t support Hamas or Fatah. I object to Israel’s operation not only because of the humanitarian cost but because I don’t think it will work.

it’s not Israel that brings death on Gaza civilians, but Hamas itself

Whatever the faults of Hamas, and I don’t necessarily dispute your contentions, if a bomb is dropped out of an Israeli plane and kills civilians, Israel at least shares some responsibility. To say otherwise is simply absurd.

Apostate

Stopping suicide bombings and rocket attacks requires a lot more than military operations, and in fact military operations may not help at all. As regards this military operation, I don’t think it has any chance of meeting any objective that I have seen attributed to it. For example, Israel is bombing tunnels. This is utterly pointless. They well be repaired or new ones built very quickly, as commercial imperatives exist.

to confront that person, to tell him or her to shut up and to suggest strongly that he or she leave

But when I say that to antisemites on this board, Gene emails me with threats to ban me.

I’m not entirely sure what the video proves, beyond the fact that some dickheads went on a demonstration in Fort Lauderdale. It doesn’t change the injustice of the Gaza situation one iota.

Gene points to the most genocidal supporters (its a word that’s used a lot at HP), but who actually kills the most people?

As dumb as it gets. This nonsense is trotted out time and time again, as though people who defend themselves and happen to be efficient at it have to apologise to the genocidal maniacs who started the killing in the first place.
It’s simple, really: don’t mess with Jews. This is not 1942, and it’s not Poland.
Benjamin and his ilk don’t seem able to grasp this. Hamas sure doesn’t.

It doesn’t change the injustice of the Gaza situation one iota.

Absolutely. It’s unjust that the genocidal Nazis of Gaza have been allowed to murder Jews with virtual impunity up to now.

They are brave in a distance, bombing Gaza with high technology and pretending to be brave, but then in person they are cowards who hide behind police lines

This screeching Jew hater would not have the guts to ever visit Israel. All he does is post his antisemitic venom from behind a computer in Buenos Aires.
You would never in this life understand how brave Israelis are, you sad person.

As regards this military operation, I don’t think it has any chance of meeting any objective that I have seen attributed to it.

Have you ever been inside an ops room, oh great and wise brigadier? Ever held a rifle? Ever even heard a shot fired in anger? You know nothing about the ME or about military matters, and yet you spout this nonsense day in day out.

Perhaps the same with the nasty bits edited out (a la BBC) to sanitise the sentiments of these poor brown victim people, and a pompous Jeremy Bowen type claiming how abused they were?

Tsk tsk, Alcuin. Al Beeb pompous? Never in a million years. And as we know, the Jews are all Europeans / Khazars / beings from planet ZXZZX (delete as relevant), foreign white racist invaders / colonialists / imperialists, and the Arabs are all genuine victims because on average their epidermis is a shade richer in melanin than the average Anglo-Saxon. Of course this automatically makes them victims.

If you look at the video here:

http://www.miamiherald.com/486/story/832116.html

17 seconds in you see someone on the Israeli side holding up a banner saying “Nuke Gaza then Iran”. Later theres a banner saying “Haman, Hamas, Hilter = Holocaust” and then a protester shouts “Palestine does not exist” and his friend has a sign saying “No Palestinian terror state”.

So there you go. Both sides have offensive idiots. Far easier to concentrate on the lunatics than focus on whats actually happening though, isn’t it.

when Hamas wins an election

LOL. Benjamin has difficulty grasping what a coup … oops, sorry … an ‘election’ ‘won’ by murderous gangsters really means.
Tell us when the next elections in Gaza are to be held, oh great oriental sage?

Gene/DavidT

Time to ban the idiot Benjamin please.

Yes, one can ignore his posts. But in threads like these there are too many.

Someone who is,ultimately, a friendless, pointless litlle man in some Hong Kong flat should not be allowed, time after time, to make threads about him.

His cries for help should be elsewhere. Honestly, I agree with freedom of speech, but with this moron it is the ‘freedom to post the first contrary thing that comes into my head and sidetrack debate’.

I dont come to the comments threads much now because of this moron. I suspect you also lose the interest of other people to.

I have made this point before. I dont belive this is a ‘freedom of speech issue’ at all. It really is something you should consider.

MattG

Ever held a rifle?

No. I don’t feel I’m deprived. I have a feeling you probably have though.

I can assure you, and I know this without a scintilla of doubt in my mind

Well, naturally you have no scintilla of doubt. You are the great sage who knows everything about everything, without having ever been to Israel or served in the military.

that you are more hung up about Jews and such identity than me.

Almost spilled my coffee there, laughing so hard. You are totally obsessed with Israel and Jews – all your posts prove it. What a sad life you must have.

So you spout your military wisdom without knowing the first thing about military matters. Is any of us surprised?

Thanks Matt G. But I am only giving my views on the conflict and answering questions put to me. Remarkably, I do it without personally insulting people.

TheIriot

“Far easier to concentrate on the lunatics than focus on whats actually happening though, isn’t it.”

Yes Gene. You really oughta get a post up about these Israeli bombings in Gaza. You justcant keep ignoring them.

Another utter moron.

MattG

ps. reading the paragraph below its actually far less offensive then almost every placard available on UK based anti Israeli demos.

Later theres a banner saying “Haman, Hamas, Hilter = Holocaust” and then a protester shouts “Palestine does not exist” and his friend has a sign saying “No Palestinian terror state”.

Isn’t it quite amusing that the title of this post is “On not confronting the haters in one’s own ranks”?

“But I am only giving my views on the conflict”

Then fuck off and post your views on your blog. That way anyone who gives a shit can visit it and take a look.

MattG

Perhaps theIriot can write guest posts for you too.

MattG

HP’s take on this whole IP conflict is ridiculous and seems to be driven by armchair zionists being turned on by war porn. Here are a few facts:

- In less than fifty years Israel, as currently constituted, will cease to exist. The demographic change is incontrovertible. Unless the IDF kills a hell of a lot more Palestinians, the Jews will be merely a notable minority.

- Given that truth why is Israel killing so many fighting a war they will inevitably lose?

- This operation will fail, and Hamas will emerge stronger both in Gaza and internationally. If they can fire one single rocket after the Israeli attacks stop it is a victory for Hamas.

Given these facts, what is the point of the senseless killing of Palestinians? To excite armchair Zionists? To make the IDF feel big again after Hezbollah spanked them? To make the next election easier for Netanyahu?

This war is disgusting and pointless.

Absolutely. It’s unjust that the genocidal Nazis of Gaza have been allowed to murder Jews with virtual impunity up to now.

Oh, and there was me thinking those civilian deaths over the past few days were Palestinian people. My mistake, it’s the “genocidal Nazis of Gaza”. How silly of me.

3rd, the allies killed far more innocent german civilians than vice versa

Don’t bother to use logic with this one, v. As his later posts proves, he cannot follow logic. His answer is completely irrelevant, and implies in the usual weasely way that you were seeking to justify Cast Iron by comparing it to WWII, which you and I and Felix (no, Felix; this boy is not particularly bright, sorry) know is nonsense. You were making the point, which we have been making to the likes of Benjamin and Irie and HB and Hypocrite many times before, that who kills more people has nil bearing on the morality of the situation. But these people don’t ever stop to think who started the killing, who is the aggressor with a loudly proclaimed genocidal agenda and who is defending themselves against genocide.

Which part of ‘up to now’ is causing you difficulty, V.P.?

Which part of ‘up to now’ is causing you difficulty, V.P.?

Hmm … some cyber glitch, sorry. I meant to add: yes, Hamas are genocidal Nazis. Read their Charter. Oh, you’ve never heard of the Hamas charter?

Remarkably, I do it without personally insulting people.

Someone send him a dictionary, with the definitions of ’smug’, ‘pompous’ and ’self-important’ underlined in red.

You are totally obsessed with Israel and Jews – all your posts prove it

Well, I actually don’t discuss Israel/Palestine much – generally when there is a major conflict, such as the invasion of Lebanon or this conflict (dominating the news and in an important area of the world).

As regards Jews, I rarely mention them. I don’t have a great deal of interest in those sort of discussions. I talk about Israel (often meaning the state/government, as is conventional) or Israelis, e.g. citizens of the state of Israel, which may or may not be Jewish.

I am quite happy to debate the rights and wrongs of this conflict. I am happy to admit that I don’t know everything about it. However, I think that the rather easy, voluble and unpleasant accusations of antisemitism when folk criticise Israel can appear rather weak. The accusation is very serious one and needs to be evidenced heavily.

A glitch, or possibly over-enthusiasm. Either way, yes I’ve read the Hamas charter, and it does rather go to show how doctrinaire your views must be that you’d presume I wouldn’t have. Which rather brings me back to the point about Gaza: those killed are not all Hamas fighters. Oh, you thought all Palestinians were in Hamas? Well no, they’re not. Sorry to shatter the illusion.

I think Benjamin is absolutely right here and it is in no way anti-semitic to note how skilled the IDF is at killing civilians. Obviously bombing a refugee camp with an F-16 is very brave and bound to succeed with no unecessary loss of life…

“Nuke, nuke Israel! There is no Israel!” – someone didn’t make it through the introductory logic course…

An interesting part of the video for me was when the Imam turned up and led prayers. Quite extraordinary.

I wonder, do people ever stop to consider where they are? I have never been to Fort Lauderdale, Florida and wish its people well. But I imagine it was a good day when these demonstrators or their parents arrived to start their new lives in that place, lives made possible by, among many things, living in an open and plural society, enshrining freedom of worship and equal rights under the law. Do these same demonstrators ever wonder from whence these rights come? Who achieved these things and why are they so unevenly distributed around the planet? Do they ever stop to compare what they themselves have and expect ‘as of right’ and so many, many, more elsewhere cannot enjoy? Why is that exactly? Further, what would happen to these rights if they got what they want?

People shout all kind of cack at demos.

That’s what they are for.

Anyway I am suprised that you lot are not following Tommy Sheridan’s very much welcome entry into the Celebrity Big Brother Lists. On telly tonight.

We cares about the Middle East, we’ve a Kilted Klown to amuse us!

“Yes, Felix. You are new here, but Benjamin has been doing this for years. He usually takes a contrarian position that resolves in complete ambiguities, or the exact meaning of words. He likes to do it in threads about Jews, because, you know, we actually experienced the death of 1/3 of our people after years of anti-Jewish propaganda, so we take words more seriously than others”

Ah, that’ll be the Holocaust Industry that Finkelstein was talking about

In the Guardian today, Robert Fox makes some excellent points about the conflict.

Are you sure that’s Ft Lauderdale and not Damascus? Americans seem to have changed a lot!

Benji is not an anti semite, he’s not even anti Israel. He’s just anti Harry’s Place. He’s got his own blog which collects cobwebs while he trolls this one.

Whatever is said here, he disagrees with. Instead, he suggests a more nuanced view which reflects on both sides and supposes that perhaps the answer lies somewhere in the middle, although we can’t be sure and will have to wait and see. You see folk are the same everywhere, and war can’t solve everything. Negotiation is the answer, tut tut I say, blimey! Its all quite complex old chap.

Get it? The point is to make it all about Benji and his utterly meaningless drivel. He provides a meaninglessly vague and argumentative response to everything said, and the more hot headed types mistake this for genuine disagreement. It is not. He has no actual views on anything.

Benjamin,

“Stopping suicide bombings and rocket attacks requires a lot more than military operations, and in fact military operations may not help at all.”

As pointed out to you already, in 2002, after 100s of Israelis were killed in suicide bombings, Israel managed in a MILITARY OPERATION to greatly reduce these attacks.

Now, considering your military experience in a little less than zero, why do you think you’re qualified to say this is impossible?

“Obviously bombing a refugee camp with an F-16 is very brave and bound to succeed with no unecessary loss of life…”

Can’t we drop the “refugee camp” crap. Refugee camps have people living in shanties and tents, they don’t have tarred roads, traffic lights and 10 storey apartment blocks.

I have three questions, which, of course I’m wasting my time asking because no one is willing to give a straightforward and honest answer.

(1) Why do Hamas base themselves in and among civillian areas?

(2) Can anyone name a single other conflict in which there were no civillian casualties?

(3) Whether or not they are successful, is Hamas *trying* to kill civillians with its rockets?

Gene/DavidT

MattG

If David T or Gene want to give me the ability to delete posts like Benjamin, or issue me with some guidelines I will do my best to police HP for the obvious WUM and those who just make vile statements rather than engaging in debate. If I (or others) asserted their right to stand up to these people then the whole of HP would degenerate into farce. Its not that we don’t have arguments but we might get tired of going around the same block every time.

Dragging-up “Yeah but 79 years ago a Jew said………” is hardly relevant when we are discussing current issues. WUM’s do that a lot.

Its easy to ban people by constantly deleting their messages. They can change their posting name but not their style.

If you think I’d delete anything that was against Israel you’d be wrong. Anti-Israel sentiment provide the opportunity for rebuttal.

Brett – I’ll answer yours if you answer mine? Sound fair?

Does someone know about any pro-Israeli (or anti-anti-Israel) demonostration planned this week? I would love to attend one.

James

Tell you what, I’ll answer your questions anyway, and perhaps if you’re not feeling too insecure, you’ll do me the honour of answering mine.

(1) Why do Hamas base themselves in and among civillian areas?

I’ll rephrase that to why do militant terrorist Palestinian groups, which include some factions of Hamas and Fatah and others, base themselves in and among civilian areas? Not knowing their internal thinking, I would speculate that it is because they are trying to hide, and the best place to hide, especially given the level of monitoring of the territory by Israel, is among civilians. It is, I’m sure, a war crime for them to do this. I don’t suppose they much care about that.

(2) Can anyone name a single other conflict in which there were no civillian casualties?

I can’t name a conflict where there were no civilian casualties, though if there were one, it would certainly have been before the days of aerial bombardment. This technique, in and of itself, as far as I’m concerned is a war crime. Anyway, the answer to your question is no. This point, of course, is completely irrelevant when assessing the situation in Gaza.

(3) Whether or not they are successful, is Hamas *trying* to kill civillians with its rockets?

Hamas is not a single entity. Yes, it has terrorists, militants and so on. I don’t doubt that these people would much rather kill IDF or Israeli government people, but they can’t, so will settle for civilians. Again, a war crime. Other factions of Hamas are more moderate, and have made signs towards negotiation and accepting a 2-s-s. Hamas as a whole has been rather better at respecting the terms of the various ceasefires than Israel has.

Now, my three questions.

1. What is the medium/long term goal that Israel is pursuing, where do the Palestinians of Gaza fit into that plan, and what is the means by which that plan will be brought about?

2. How, specifically, has the last seven days of bombing, contributed to the goals you identified in 1? In particular, if the Palestinians are not to be exterminated or ethnically cleansed (I assume this wasn’t you’re answer), what have Israels actions done to the prospects for a peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians?

3. Is a university a legitimate military target?

‘If David T or Gene want to give me the ability to delete posts like Benjamin, or issue me with some guidelines I will do my best to police HP for the obvious WUM and those who just make vile statements rather than engaging in debate.’

*Spits coffee across desk at some people’s comic lack of self-awareness.

Next thing you know, Nearly Oxfordian will call somebody else a right-wing troll…

(1) Why do Hamas base themselves in and among civillian areas?

Because they are a guerrilla army, which involves both ’shielding’ (as much discussed here) and being actually part of the broader population, “among the people”. As Robert Fox in today’s Guardian notes, that Israel’s approach is currently inept against this force.

“Four years ago General Rupert Smith produced a ground-breaking book called The Utility of Force about the future of warfare. He suggested that warfare is undergoing a paradigm shift from the industrial hi-tec conflicts which run from the age of Napoleon to the end of the last century. We will now see less formal “generational” conflicts which are not constricted by time, and are fought by ragbag militias and guerrilla gangs tooted in the civilian community. These are ingredients of what he calls (borrowing a Maoist phrase) “wars among the people”.

This kind of thinking proved pretty unpalatable to a lot of the old and bold of the military class, among them most of the current British top brass. Inevitably the cynics in the ranks rechristened the book “The Futility of Force”.

Smith himself would agree with them. His prime example of the open-ended “war among the people” is the contest between the Israelis and the Palestinians where he sees the Israelis always resorting to tactical short-term fixes while ignoring the needs for a long-term strategy…

The addiction to force, whether against Hamas in Gaza or the Taliban in Afghanistan, results in the opposite to its perpetrators’ intentions. It is the fuel to an open-ended conflict which threatens to outrun the lives of most of the current leadership.”

Can anyone name a single other conflict in which there were no civillian casualties?

No, but not relevant: the argument here is not whether there should no casualties, but the scale and justifiability of the casualties and destruction in Gaza presently.

Whether or not they are successful, is Hamas *trying* to kill civillians with its rockets?

Yes, in the sense they are aimed at civilian areas, although not with great accuracy. In fact the rockets cannot be very accurately targeted either away or at civilians.

Israel is not targeting civilians, but kills more of them. However, when a military commander bombs a house to kill a Hamas member (even with warnings) he knows he may kill innocents either in the house or nearby. However, he does not target them specifically. This is a better moral position than simply targeting civilians, but there is still responsibility involved.

TheIrie:
“what have Israels actions done to the prospects for a peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians?”

What have Palestinians actions done to the prospects for a peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians?

“(1) Why do Hamas base themselves in and among civillian areas?”

Because, in Irie’s world, we must submit to the thug most willing to adorn himself with live human infants.

Brett – you’ve had two answers now, broadly the same, from me and Benji. Now, how about answering my questions?

I can’t believe people want Benjamin to be banned. Where are his insults? And his personal attacks? I can’t see them. Free speech, eh? “You are allowed to say whatever you want as long as you agree with us” should be the motto of some contributors…

Israel Has No Intention of Granting a Palestinian State
If Hamas Did Not Exist

By JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN

Let us get one thing perfectly straight. If the wholesale mutilation and degradation of the Gaza Strip is going to continue; if Israel’s will is at one with that of the United States; if the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and all the international legal agencies and organizations spread across the globe are going to continue to sit by like hollow mannequins doing nothing but making repeated “calls” for a “ceasefire” on “both sides”; if the cowardly, obsequious and supine Arab States are going to stand by watching their brethren get slaughtered by the hour while the world’s bullying Superpower eyes them threateningly from Washington lest they say something a little to their disliking; then let us at least tell the truth why this hell on earth is taking place.

The state terror unleashed from the skies and on the ground against the Gaza Strip as we speak has nothing to do with Hamas. It has nothing to do with “Terror”. It has nothing to do with the long-term “security” of the Jewish State or with Hizbullah or Syria or Iran except insofar as it is aggravating the conditions that have led up to this crisis today. It has nothing to do with some conjured-up “war” – a cynical and overused euphemism that amounts to little more the wholesale enslavement of any nation that dares claim its sovereign rights; that dares assert that its resources are its own; that doesn’t want one of the Empire’s obscene military bases sitting on its cherished land.

This crisis has nothing to do with freedom, democracy, justice or peace. It is not about Mahmoud Zahhar or Khalid Mash’al or Ismail Haniyeh. It is not about Hassan Nasrallah or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. These are all circumstantial players who have gained a role in the current tempest only now that the situation has been allowed for 61 years to develop into the catastrophe that it is today. The Islamist factor has colored and will continue to color the atmosphere of the crisis; it has enlisted the current leaders and mobilized wide sectors of the world’s population. The primary symbols today are Islamic – the mosques, the Qur’an, the references to the Prophet Muhammad and to Jihad. But these symbols could disappear and the impasse would continue.

There was a time when Fatah and the PFLP held the day; when few Palestinians wanted anything to do with Islamist policies and politics. Such politics have nothing to do with primitive rockets being fired over the border, or smuggling tunnels and black-market weapons; just as Arafat’s Fatah had little to do with stones and suicide bombings. The associations are coincidental; the creations of a given political environment. They are the result of something entirely different than what the lying politicians and their analysts are telling you. They have become part of the landscape of human events in the modern Middle East today; but incidentals wholly as lethal, or as recalcitrant, deadly, angry or incorrigible could just as soon have been in their places.

Strip away the clichés and the vacuous newspeak blaring out across the servile media and its pathetic corps of voluntary state servants in the Western world and what you will find is the naked desire for hegemony; for power over the weak and dominion over the world’s wealth. Worse yet you will find that the selfishness, the hatred and indifference, the racism and bigotry, the egotism and hedonism that we try so hard to cover up with our sophisticated jargon, our refined academic theories and models actually help to guide our basest and ugliest desires. The callousness with which we in indulge in them all are endemic to our very culture; thriving here like flies on a corpse.

Strip away the current symbols and language of the victims of our selfish and devastating whims and you will find the simple, impassioned and unaffected cries of the downtrodden; of the ‘wretched of the earth’ begging you to cease your cold aggression against their children and their homes; their families and their villages; begging you to leave them alone to have their fish and their bread, their oranges, their olives and their thyme; asking you first politely and then with increasing disbelief why you cannot let them live undisturbed on the land of their ancestors; unexploited, free of the fear of expulsion; of ravishment and devastation; free of permits and roadblocks and checkpoints and crossings; of monstrous concrete walls, guard towers, concrete bunkers, and barbed wire; of tanks and prisons and torture and death. Why is life without these policies and instruments of hell impossible?

The answer is because Israel has no intention of allowing a viable, sovereign Palestinian state on its borders. It had no intention of allowing it in 1948 when it grabbed 24 per cent more land than what it was allotted legally, if unfairly, by UN Resolution 181. It had no intention of allowing it throughout the massacres and ploys of the 1950s. It had no intention of allowing two states when it conquered the remaining 22 per cent of historic Palestine in 1967 and reinterpreted UN Security Council Resolution 248 to its own liking despite the overwhelming international consensus stating that Israel would receive full international recognition within secure and recognized borders if it withdrew from the lands it had only recently occupied.

It had no intention of acknowledging Palestinian national rights at the United Nations in 1974, when –alone with the United States—it voted against a two-state solution. It had no intention of allowing a comprehensive peace settlement when Egypt stood ready to deliver but received, and obediently accepted, a separate peace exclusive of the rights of Palestinians and the remaining peoples of the region. It had no intention of working toward a just two-state solution in 1978 or 1982 when it invaded, fire-bombed, blasted and bulldozed Beirut so that it might annex the West Bank without hassle. It had no intention of granting a Palestinian state in 1987 when the first Intifada spread across occupied Palestine, into the Diaspora and the into the spirits of the global dispossessed, or when Israel deliberately aided the newly formed Hamas movement so that it might undermine the strength of the more secular-nationalist factions.

Israel had no intention of granting a Palestinian state at Madrid or at Oslo where the PLO was superseded by the quivering, quisling Palestinian Authority, too many of whose cronies grasped at the wealth and prestige it gave them at the expense of their own kin. As Israel beamed into the world’s satellites and microphones its desire for peace and a two-state solution, it more than doubled the number of illegal Jewish settlements on the ground in the West Bank and around East Jerusalem, annexing them as it built and continues to build a superstructure of bypass roads and highways over the remaining, severed cities and villages of earthly Palestine. It has annexed the Jordan valley, the international border of Jordan, expelling any ‘locals’ inhabiting that land. It speaks with a viper’s tongue over the multiple amputee of Palestine whose head shall soon be severed from its body in the name of justice, peace and security.

Through the home demolitions, the assaults on civil society that attempted to cast Palestinian history and culture into a chasm of oblivion; through the unspeakable destruction of the refugee camp sieges and infrastructure bombardments of the second Intifada, through assassinations and summary executions, past the grandiose farce of disengagement and up to the nullification of free, fair and democratic Palestinian elections Israel has made its view known again and again in the strongest possible language, the language of military might, of threats, intimidation, harassment, defamation and degradation.

Israel, with the unconditional and approving support of the United States, has made it dramatically clear to the entire world over and over and over again, repeating in action after action that it will accept no viable Palestinian state next to its borders. What will it take for the rest of us to hear? What will it take to end the criminal silence of the ‘international community’? What will it take to see past the lies and indoctrination to what is taking place before us day after day in full view of the eyes of the world? The more horrific the actions on the ground, the more insistent are the words of peace. To listen and watch without hearing or seeing allows the indifference, the ignorance and complicity to continue and deepens with each grave our collective shame.

The destruction of Gaza has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel will accept no authority in the Palestinian territories that it does not ultimately control. Any individual, leader, faction or movement that fails to accede to Israel’s demands or that seeks genuine sovereignty and the equality of all nations in the region; any government or popular movement that demands the applicability of international humanitarian law and of the universal declaration of human rights for its own people will be unacceptable for the Jewish State. Those dreaming of one state must be forced to ask themselves what Israel would do to a population of 4 million Palestinians within its borders when it commits on a daily, if not hourly basis, crimes against their collective humanity while they live alongside its borders? What will suddenly make the raison d’etre, the self-proclaimed purpose of Israel’s reason for being change if the Palestinian territories are annexed to it outright?

The lifeblood of the Palestinian National Movement flows through the streets of Gaza today. Every drop that falls waters the soil of vengeance, bitterness and hatred not only in Palestine but across the Middle East and much of the world. We do have a choice over whether or not this should continue. Now is the time to make it.

Jennifer Loewenstein is the Associate Director of the Middle East Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Benjamin:
“Yes, in the sense they are aimed at civilian areas, although not with great accuracy. In fact the rockets cannot be very accurately targeted either away or at civilians.”

This is the last time I’ll ever answer any of your posts.

Four children lost their mother this week in Ashdod because a very non accurate and absolutely non targeting rocket. Please tell them that her death means nothing because she wasn’t a palestinian civilian.

I’m sure you don’t understand how offensive your posts are for someone who lives in Israel – or I hope you don’t. Your message is: why don’t you just die and let the palestinians have their way. I wouldn’t care if you were openly anti-semite, like others here. As other posters pointed out, it’s quite obvious you’re doing it out of boredom. I won’t read your posts anymore.

Israel is one of the most beautiful countries in the world. It has contributed towards the betterment of human life massively in proportion to its size, whether one considers the contribution towards medicine, technology and agriculture, towards the arts, or in politics where it has introduced universal suffrage, human rights and freedom of speech in a region where these things were previously unknown. And Israel has resettled millions of refugees from persecution in other countries.

The people who want to destroy all this, such as these demonstrators and the apologists for murder and fascism on this comment thread are just nihilists who are historically irrelevant and are wasting lives which could be of some benefit to humanity if they just followed the example of Israel rather than cultivating hatred.

Mr Coates.

Shocking news that Tommy Sheridan had to change his Bail address to appear in the Big Brother House.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/entertainment/2009/01/02/bail-house-shock-86908-21009578/

Come on Brett. Fair’s fair.

Whatever one thinks of Benji’s arguments they are at least on topic. If we are going to call for people’s posts to be deleted then I would start with those which are merely ad hominem attacks on other posters. It is rather ironic that people complain about threads becoming “about Benji” when they are ignoring the subject of the thread and submitting posts, er, about Benji.

Pierot Grenouille
“I can’t believe people want Benjamin to be banned. Where are his insults? And his personal attacks? I can’t see them”

Please come to Sderot/Ashkelon/Ashdod/Beer-Sheva – pick one. Live there for a few weeks dodging rockets every 2-3 hours. Then have Benjamin tell you that the non accurate rockets may or may not be targeting you, but anyway it’s much better for humanity that you die for the sake of the palestinian civilians.

“Come on Brett. Fair’s fair.”

Try as I might, I can’t seem to find your “questions”. There’s one sort of facitious, rhetorical one, but nothing else I can see.

1. What is the medium/long term goal that Israel is pursuing, where do the Palestinians of Gaza fit into that plan, and what is the means by which that plan will be brought about?

2. How, specifically, has the last seven days of bombing, contributed to the goals you identified in 1? In particular, if the Palestinians are not to be exterminated or ethnically cleansed (I assume this wasn’t you’re answer), what have Israels actions done to the prospects for a peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians?

3. Is a university a legitimate military target?

Four children lost their mother this week in Ashdod because a very non accurate and absolutely non targeting rocket. Please tell them that her death means nothing because she wasn’t a palestinian civilian.

I have not denied that the rockets can kill and terrorise people. I have said that it is wrong, and I have said it is my view that they should stop being fired.

I am not sure what is controversial about noting that these weapons cannot be very accurately targeted. This is simply a technical fact if you look at the rocket and its technology, and further evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of these rockets do not kill anyone.

However, the fact that they are relatively rudimentary and hard to target does not mean they are incapable of killing people. I have never claimed that.

The Irie said:”3. Is a university a legitimate military target?”

It is if it isn’t really a university and is a bomb factory.

Please come to Sderot/Ashkelon/Ashdod/Beer-Sheva – pick one. Live there for a few weeks dodging rockets every 2-3 hours. Then have Benjamin tell you that the non accurate rockets may or may not be targeting you, but anyway it’s much better for humanity that you die for the sake of the palestinian civilians.

Absolutely absurd. I am just telling you the simple fact that these rockets are technically incapable of being very accurately targeted. I have not denied they can kill or terrorise, and I have stated that is wrong.

If David T or Gene want to give me the ability to delete posts like Benjamin, or issue me with some guidelines I will do my best to police HP

Let me put this as gently as possible: No.

Pisa, I get it.

But the other side could retort “come to Gaza”, so? And I very much doubt Benjamin is throwing pop corn from the cheap seats when the Palestinian rockets are launched.

If you think he is plainly wrong, just convince him or prove his arguments are wrong (therefore prove yours are right). Though don’t forget that this whole thing (political discussions) is subjective and debatable… Why do some people mention the word ban? Political debates are per definition full of different point of views (unless you BAN free speech eh?)…

Re Benjamin,

I used to get as angry as some of the commenters here by his constant stream of smug, uninformed comments. Then I trained myself to look for his name and mostly (with some lapses) I avoid reading his comments– unless the topic is China, in which case he can write with genuine understanding and awareness. Now I treat him as one of the many minor annoyances in my life, and it’s done wonders for my blood pressure.

Josh Scholar once described a method to filter out Benjamin’s (or anyone else’s) comments from your browser. Perhaps he”ll be kind enough to do so again.

Did you hear the press conference ahead of tomorrow’s anti-Israel orgy in London? Annie Lennox says that the footage of the fighting ruined her Xmas. Alexei Sayle says the Israeli attacks are not being done in his name. Glad you cleared that up, Alexei.

Andrew:

1. What is the medium/long term goal that Israel is pursuing, where do the Palestinians of Gaza fit into that plan, and what is the means by which that plan will be brought about?

The current objective is to halt rocket attacks on Israeli citizens. Anybody who really wants to see a Palestinian state should want Hamas to suffer the biggest blow possible. I’ll clue you in on something – Israel isn’t going to concede territory to have it used as a launching pad for attacks against her.

2. How, specifically, has the last seven days of bombing, contributed to the goals you identified in 1? In particular, if the Palestinians are not to be exterminated or ethnically cleansed (I assume this wasn’t you’re answer), what have Israels actions done to the prospects for a peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians?

The last week of bombing the the rest of this operation will make it harder for Hamas to attack Israel. Do you understand why Israelis find that important?

3. Is a university a legitimate military target?

If used to store ammunition/develop missiles/hide terrorists, it is a very legitimate target.

Pisa, again you are missing the point. Benji is here to oppose whatever is said. Its nothing personal. He just likes the attention.

Benjamin:

” Absolutely absurd. I am just telling you the simple fact that these rockets are technically incapable of being very accurately targeted.”

So that in your view means Israel should not protect her citizens from them?

Adams/Pierre

Dont play thick. Lets take this particular post as an example (altho pick any from hundreds).

The post title is:

“On not confronting the haters in one’s own ranks”

The post topic is very much the same.

Benjamin responds:

Benjamin
2 January 2009, 5:23 am

“Ironic really. Gene points to the most genocidal supporters (its a word that’s used a lot at HP), but who actually kills the most people?”

I dont fully understand this response, its meaning, or how it closely addresses Gene’s points – but frankly Im really not interested in talking about Benjamin; my post was directed at the site moderators.

This thread has of course been successfully sidetracked.

Pity, because it could have been interesting.

I don’t address Benjamin (or similars) points anymore because a) they rarely stand up to any scrutiny and b) they are rarely anything other than knee jerk contrary positions to what this blog says.
They are not made with either thought or sincerity.

But, to humour you… Benjamin has just stated:

“I am just telling you the simple fact that these rockets are technically incapable of being very accurately targeted. I have not denied they can kill or terrorise, and I have stated that is wrong.

The front page of todays Times talks about concerns in Israel that Israels nuclear reactor at Dimona will soon be within misile range.

Yesterday Rosemary Hollis (no friend of Israel) stated on Sky News that Ben Gurion Airport is now almost within missile range of both the West Bank and Gaza. If the airport needs to be shut down Israel is cut off from the rest of the world.

The conflict is not about badly targetted missiles Vs F16s. Those that believe it is are frankly dumb or playing dumb.

MattG

Brett – I’ll assume you’re not going to answer the questions. Quell surprise.

Mark – you didn’t answer my 1. You said “The last week of bombing the the rest of this operation will make it harder for Hamas to attack Israel.” I don’t accept that at all. I think it’s going to make it considerably easier, in as far as there will be plenty more people willing to participate in the attacks.

“If used to store ammunition/develop missiles/hide terrorists, it is a very legitimate target.” OK. So, if it turns out that that isn’t the case, it’s a war crime, right?

So that in your view means Israel should not protect her citizens from them?

What? I have said repeatedly that Israel has the right to protect its citizens.

”If I attended a pro-Israel demonstration, and I heard someone shout “Death to Arabs….”

it can be provocators, i.e. non-jewish antizionists who want to provoke more hatred throwing more fuel in the fire.

I know that because i’ve met some of these people on diff net-forums

Thought this Counter Terrorism blog piece on the Israel – Hamas tamarsha quite good – here.

Andrew, please learn to read. I answered your first question.

“The last week of bombing the the rest of this operation will make it harder for Hamas to attack Israel.” I don’t accept that at all. I think it’s going to make it considerably easier, in as far as there will be plenty more people willing to participate in the attacks.”

I don’t think you understand the situation in Gaza at all Andrew. There is no shortage of people willing to participate in Attacks on Israel, so that line of argument is entirely irrelevant. Bombing Hamas weapon depots and killing their members is a sure fire way of making it harder for them to operate. Just look at the WB.

““If used to store ammunition/develop missiles/hide terrorists, it is a very legitimate target.” OK. So, if it turns out that that isn’t the case, it’s a war crime, right?”

A. No. There is a vast difference between what YOU consider a war crime to what actually is.

B. No Palestinian will deny that the Islamic University holds labs used by Hamas and is full of Hamas soldiers, so the question is moot.

Benjamin,

“What? I have said repeatedly that Israel has the right to protect its citizens.”

This is what Israel is doing now. Why are you complaining? If as you say you understand Israel is protecting its citizens, you should be on Hamas forums protesting the shooting of rockets into Israel.

Why don’t you do that, instead of hijacking threads with misinformed comments?

Benjamin points out whom is actually is doing most of the killing, Irie asks a few pertinent questions which nobody answers. And so begins the torrent of personal abuse from the guys who get off on IDF violence.

And somehow this is all the fault of Hamas and friends in the world’s largest refugee camp. You guys are beyond parody and should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

Why are you complaining?

Are you asking this seriously?

This is what Israel is doing now. Why are you complaining?

And there is no other way of doing this than the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians F-16 dropping bombs?

Serge, if you’re seeking attention, why don’t you take a broomstick, shove it up your ass and post on youtube?

Serge,
It’s ‘who is doing’, not ‘whom’.
The rest of your hysterical rant is beneath contempt.

The front page of todays Times talks about concerns in Israel that Israels nuclear reactor at Dimona will soon be within misile range.

Yesterday Rosemary Hollis (no friend of Israel) stated on Sky News that Ben Gurion Airport is now almost within missile range of both the West Bank and Gaza. If the airport needs to be shut down Israel is cut off from the rest of the world.

Er, yes, which does not go against my point about the fact that these rockets cannot be very accurately targeted. Qassam and Al Quds are rudimentary rockets lacking a guidance system. These rockets are pretty insignificant in military terms, but can be used to terrorise, and can kill.

And there is no other way of doing this than the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians F-16 dropping bombs?

There is. That’s what Israel is doing.
Anyone calling it ‘indiscriminate’ is either completely ignorant of what goes on there, and/or a standard Jew-baiter. Do follow Mark’s excellent advice and make like a tree.

“These rockets are pretty insignificant in military terms, but can be used to terrorise, and can kill.”

Good work Benjamin. Now off to Hamas forums to protest their use on Israeli towns.

Er, yes, which does not go against my point about the fact that these rockets cannot be very accurately targeted

The Brigadier hath spoken.
You don’t need high accuracy to endanger a nuclear reactor or a matropolitan area, idiot.

For fucks sake how crap are these threads becoming.

TheIriots questions have been answered.

To summarise…there are no shortage of palestinians wanting to become ‘martyrs’. It is not the number of applicants that have been a problem but security measures, such as the ‘apartheid wall’; which despite being an ‘apartheid wall’ seems to have the bizarre added value of saving Israeli lives.

We will never know whether the Islamic university bombed held bombs. personally I think it extremely likely. But Hamas would not admit it – so debating whether or not this is a war crime if proved one way or the other is abosulutely pointless.

Im out though. Perhaps in a week or two those with a bit of nouse (on both sides of the fence) will have returned to these threads, and bored morons with no understaning of the situation (Hong Kong Benji, TheIriot etc) will have moved on.

MattG

I am quite happy to debate the rights and wrongs of this conflict

You don’t ‘debate’. You expose your total ignorance and smug self-importance and ‘higher morality’.

I am happy to admit that I don’t know everything about it

LOL.

Alexei Sayle says the Israeli attacks are not being done in his name.

I am glad to hear that I don’t need to be associated with that utter moron.

This is what Israel is doing now. Why are you complaining?

Because its one thing to accept that Israel has the right to defend itself, and quite another to argue that its taking the right course of action, or that the course of action will succeed. I think this military action will fail to halt rocket attacks, fail to disarm Hamas, and certainly in the longer term fail to weaken or unseat Hamas. I’ve already tried to explain all this; there are many issues here. However, even if you are not a bleeding heart like me, Israel is trying to fight a conventional war from the air against a guerrilla enemy. It’s a non-starter. It won’t work.

I’m sure you don’t understand how offensive your posts are for someone who lives in Israel

Benjamin’s posts are offensive to many people who don’t live in Israel. In fact, all those who are sick of his cowardly apologetics for Hamas.

Mark – so are you back tracking on the allegation that there were bombs at the university now, and saying that because “Hamas Soliders” were there it’s legitimate? btw – I didn’t realise Hamas has an army with Soliders? Do you mean militants? To be clear, are you saying that because Hamas militants were in the university, the university was a legitimate target?

I think this military action will fail to halt rocket attacks, fail to disarm Hamas, and certainly in the longer term fail to weaken or unseat Hamas

You don’t know the first thing about any of it. Why do you persist in spouting this ignorant drivel? Do you enjoy looking like a complete fool?

Benjamine, I’m sure the IDF will appreciate your input, due to your vast military experience and knowledge of the situation. I’ll be sure to pass your ideas on.

However, you might wish to read up on previous Israeli operations and check whether they halted rockets and/or terrorist attacks. You might just be surprised.

I’m glad we covered this ground. Now, off you go to Hamas forums to protest the terrorizing of civilians with rockets.

Andrew, again, please learn to read.

Reread what I wrote. I am not backtracking on anything, but I’m very glad to see you’ve withdraw your “war crimes” allegations.

The distinctions between militants/soldiers is not important.

You don’t need high accuracy to endanger a nuclear reactor or a matropolitan area, idiot.

Exactly, but I never said they couldn’t endanger nuclear reactors or metropolitan areas. Its absurd. I was accused of not showing compassion for Israelis being terrorised or killed by rockets simply because I accurately summarised the technical specifications and performance of the rockets.

NO and Mark should read Israeli historian Tom Segev’s opinion of whether past Israeli military actions have been successful in halting rocket attacks. They have not. They have done the opposite.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050706.html

Mark – can you please be categorical about the circumstances under which bombing a university is legitimate, so that when the facts come out I know how to judge them. Please don’t answer by talking about non-existent things like “Hamas Soliders”.

Furthermore, Mark, if this was an exam, you’d get a fat zero for this “answer”:

“1. What is the medium/long term goal that Israel is pursuing, where do the Palestinians of Gaza fit into that plan, and what is the means by which that plan will be brought about?

The current objective is to halt rocket attacks on Israeli citizens. Anybody who really wants to see a Palestinian state should want Hamas to suffer the biggest blow possible. I’ll clue you in on something – Israel isn’t going to concede territory to have it used as a launching pad for attacks against her.”

I asked about the medium/long term objectives. You haven’t said what they are. What are they?

“We will never know whether the Islamic university bombed held bombs. personally I think it extremely likely. But Hamas would not admit it – so debating whether or not this is a war crime if proved one way or the other is abosulutely pointless.”

Please note:

“We need to remember that Qassams are more a psychological than physical threat”

Defense Minister Director-General Yaakov Toran, Israeli Ministry of Defence, 2006.

Of course, if I had said something like that all hell would have broken loose here. So, you lot can pass on all your enraged comments to the Israeli Ministry of Defence.

Well, in any totalitarian situation, in places worse than Gaza in that regard, folk do what they need to do to get jobs. They may not be particularly political, but are prepared to play the game to secure employment.

Benjamin, therefore using your logic, it is unethical for Hamas to target Israeli conscripts?

NO and Mark should read Israeli historian Tom S

Benjamin, therefore using your logic, it is unethical for Hamas to target Israeli conscripts?

Yes.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3222783,00.htm

He spoke extensively about the protection of vulnerable settlements, especially those on the Gaza border.

“We can’t invest millions in protection – that would be a strategic mistake. We need minimal protective solutions for vulnerable positions. As is, it’s quite expensive, and no solution is perfect. Even if we invest a great deal of money, the threat might always grow and the protection systems will be useless,” Toran explained.

‘We are second most profitable body in country’

A preferred spending strategy is to invest in offense and intelligence, he noted. “Clearly everyone wants to be surrounded by concrete block, but we need to remember that Qassams are more a psychological than physical threat. Statistically they cause the fewest losses, and therefore we must develop prevention systems but not invest all the money in this aspect.”

For Ziobots. Hamas Broke The Gaza Ceasefire six days after it was announced http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7470530.stm

Don’t let them get away with these lies that it was broken in November by Israel.

Jennifer Loewenstein is the Associate Director of the Middle East Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison

That ‘Studies Programme’ and all connected with it should be shut down.

To judge by professor Lowenstein’s rant, it appears that both she AND her ‘Studies Programme’ are on the Saudi payroll and are thus detrimental to the cause of true peace in the Mid-east.

Such as what? And just what would Gene expect a “leftist” video diary to show? Perhaps the same with the nasty bits edited out (a la BBC) to sanitise the sentiments of these poor brown victim people, and a pompous Jeremy Bowen type claiming how abused they were?. Alcuin. I agree.

Gene has been watching too much PBS, MSNBC and BBC, with their inbred bias, metropolitan liberal values and sanctimonious humbug commentary. He would appear to be unprepared for full, unexpurgated, in your face factual evidence of the threat we face, and that there really are nasty people among the multicultural enclaves that we have allowed to fester in our midst.

There are many, MANY people occupying Gene’s headspace, and I find that frightening.

And we didn’t allow these enclaves to fester, we encouraged their growth; we encouraged the growth of large brown-skinned neo-nazis communities in the belief it was all about ‘religion’ and ‘tolerance’, all the while entertaining the silly delusion that any threat of violent anti-semitism would necessarily come from Whites, and Whites alone.

All we’ve allowed is the sanctimonious circulation of various ’soft’, lefty bigotries and prejudices that have been levereged to the max by vicious hate-filled Brownshirts seeking to ingratiate/insert themselves into our social fabric, our universities, and our institutions of governement…including those which look after intelligence and national security.

Gene appears quite unaware that islamophobia ( now defined as even mild criticism of anything islamic) now trumps all, including anti-semitism, and yet he still supports the people and champions the viewpoints and ideology that has created such a perverse situation.

Anyone who still thinks that a significant portion of America’s Muslim community haven’t the intention of bringing this conflict to America’s shores are sadly, sadly mistaken.

I think this military action will fail to halt rocket attacks, fail to disarm Hamas, and certainly in the longer term fail to weaken or unseat Hamas.

What are your reasons for thinking that? Suppose Israel destroys all the tunnels to prevent re-supply of imported missiles. Suppose Israel destroys missile stocks and workshops inside Gaza? It could certainly reduce the threat to a very low level.

Did you think the security measures taken by Israel from 2002-2005 would succeed in defeating the suicide bombers? Many at the time thought that they wouldn’t, but Israel proved them wrong. I’d loved to know what you were saying in 2002.

Maven – “Hamas Broke The Gaza Ceasefire six days after it was announced”. Now, here’s what YOUR link actually says: “Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge an Israeli raid in the West Bank in which two died… Hamas, the main Palestinian faction in Gaza, has urged all sides to respect the ceasefire. Speaking at a donors’ conference in Berlin, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said it was “essential for the ceasefire to be sustained”. “Whatever damage has been done to the process, that damage should be undone as quickly as possible,” he said.”

In fact, your link demonstrates exactly how willing Hamas were to proceed with the ceasefire, condemning the rockets themselves!

“I’d loved to know what you were saying in 2002.”

I’ll summarize: The apartheid wall will only inspire more suicide attacks.

(That prediction didn’t really stand up.)

Stopping suicide bombings and rocket attacks requires a lot more than military operations, and in fact military operations may not help at all.

Benjamin, the measures taken by Israel in the West Bank WORKED. There were 60 suicide bombings in 2002. There was was 1 suicide bombing in 2008 and not from the West Bank. Until you can understand this fact, and understand how Israel achieved this success, your views about the likely success of the Gaza operation will be ill-informed to put it mildly.

As regards this military operation, I don’t think it has any chance of meeting any objective that I have seen attributed to it. For example, Israel is bombing tunnels. This is utterly pointless. They well be repaired or new ones built very quickly, as commercial imperatives exist.

How do you know that? Bombing a tunnel takes a few minutes. Rebuilding takes days and risks the lives of those doing it. If Israel keeps knocking them out at the current rate, those bearing the cost of building them may judge it’s not worth the cost. At any rate, the flow of weapons into Gaza will be greatly reduced.

“We need to remember that Qassams are more a psychological than physical threat”

I agree. They are a psychological threat that creates an existential threat for a normal, prosperous country made up of people that want to live comfortably and peacefully.

Iranian nukes may be “more a psychological than physical threat” as well, but that’s what is so troubling about the prospect. This argument does not minimize the significance of the qassams or nukes.

That said, the Ashdod apartment that I spent last years high holidays at was hit by a missile yesterday. My good friends’ family was very lucky not to be killed. So go fuck off now with your pedantic nit-picking bullshit. You seriously do suck Benjamin. At some point I hope you will be able to take a look at yourself and think “Maybe there is a substantial reason why so many people find me repulsive and irritating?”

Benjamin, therefore using your logic, it is unethical for Hamas to target Israeli conscripts?

Yes.

Benjamin, very commendable on your part but don’t you think a tad niave?

TheIrie – I don’t think it is possible to discuss this with you for the simple reason that you conveniently divide Hamas up into, inter alia, terrorists, militants, the political wing, moderates…” Others then say that they are separate from the people of Gaza and go on about “collective punishment” while at the same time declaring that Hamas have a democratic mandate. The long and the short of it seems to be to claim simultaniously that everyone acts in concert, but that blame can only be attached to a slippery and illussive section. It’s all very convenient.

Anyone who still thinks that a significant portion of America’s Muslim community haven’t the intention of bringing this conflict to America’s shores are sadly, sadly mistaken.

Speaking of hate that should be confronted… what lunacy. America haters like this guy and his family?

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/01/01/family.grounded/index.html

Apologies that was me not Yaakov.

That lomg piece by yugoslav, alias Jennifer Loewentsein, is a great piece of purple prose including hallucinatory phrases like “their cherished land.” It is also a perfect model of pseudo- left wing, liberal etc ideology. It merits careful study, for which, alas! I don’t have the time. HP is a fast moving blog and I still feel that there should be a companion blog that allows more time for reflection. Democratya is not at all bad as a companion of this sort.

Dr. Loewenstein dismisses Islamic fundamentalism in a few words, suggesting that it is not really relevant. This flaws her arguments and her rhetoric irretrievably, which is a pity, because she has a great generosity of spirit, for which she is liable to be kicked in the teeth by the very people she defends. It is indeed important to understand why and how Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, the Taliban arose, but once they are there, they are there. Many pseudo-leftwingers continued to justify Lenin and Stalin until the Berlin wall fell, and some stiill do, with the brilliant exception of Rosa Luxenburg who saw from the beginning what her comrades were up to.

For lack of time and light? relief I will indulge in some Felixiana:

I imagine that if I were Palestinian and had the same mind as I now have, I might well say, “Dear Israelis, stay where you are, establish your state, we need your help and your know-how in our midst.” This is what Nelson Mandela said to white South Africans when they lost their unspeakably dreadful racist state. I doubt whether Muslim fundamentalists would say the same thing to Israelis.

Right and Left have little meaning today. If anything I sympathise with the Anarchists who say that all power corrupts and that there has never been a revolution which has not reimposed a reign of terror/power. Unfortunately people are not mature enough to live in an Anarchist paradise.

Liberals – to use a loose term – suffer from guilt, and bend over backwards to make amends for a history of unjust white supremacy. Women go for audiences with the Ayatollah wearing burkhas. Unfortunately they are not dealing with people who appreciate their generosity. You get kicked in the teeth, as I know from personal and general experience.

The rulers in the MF countries are not a down-trodden, but a down-treading people.

I hesitate to speak of ‘the civilised world’ -it doesn’t exist, but in the moderately civilised world people are bound by certain moral principles: you don’t send your young into the world as suicide bombers; you don’t hold tourists as hostages; if your tourists are held hostage, you are liable – out of a simple sense of humanity – to negotiate and often to cough up. Do the MF’s respect this drop of humanity?

I submit this mail recklessly. We are in the shit, and who knows how to get out of it? Read Democratya for a beam of light, HP for tough tussles. There is also a site called Arabs for Israel which draws a different picture of Gaza under Hamas – different from that of doubled-up liberals.

For Ziobots. Hamas Broke The Gaza Ceasefire six days after it was announced

It was not Hamas. It was minor extremist groups Hamas had difficulty controlling, just like Israel can’t control the settlers in the West Bank. In the course of a few weeks, however, Hamas reined in those extremists (unlike Israel in the West Bank, despite having one of the most advanced armies in the world) and even jailed a few of them. By Nov. 3, the number of rockets shot at Israel had been reduced to virtually zero.

Then on Nov. 4/5, Israel killed six people in Gaza in a clear violation of the truce done by the state of Israel (i.e. a party to the truce), not by some extremist group.

“Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge an Israeli raid in the West Bank in which two died…

Where abouts in Gaza IS the West Bank???

West Bank was NOT part of the truce

Benjamin, very commendable on your part but don’t you think a tad niave?

No, but it may be naive.

But I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts (always wanted to use that expression) that you’ll never hear Jews in a pro-israel demostration in North America Europe or Latin America shouting death to Arabs.

On February 21, 2006, the Palestinian Solidarity Movement held a meeting at Georgetown University. The Jewish Defense League sent a group to disrupt the event, which chanted “Death to Arabs” and “Mohammed was a pedophile” while waving a Danish flag. See here.

Where’s my doughnut? Or is it my dollar.

It was not Hamas. It was minor extremist groups Hamas had difficulty controlling, just like Israel can’t control the settlers in the West Bank.

Absolute nonsense again. And yes, Israel is ultimately responsible for the actions of the settlers.

“Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge an Israeli raid in the West Bank in which two died…

Where abouts in Gaza IS the West Bank???

West Bank was NOT part of the truce

And Islamic Jihad was not part of the truce either!!! That’s precisely the point!

The truce was signed between the Israeli government and Hamas, and Hamas scrupulously respected it by prosecuting and jailing the Islamic Jihad terrorists who had shot the rockets.

If David T or Gene want to give me the ability to delete posts like Benjamin, or issue me with some guidelines I will do my best to police HP

Let me put this as gently as possible: No

Too much to type “No Thanks”? ;)

And Islamic Jihad was not part of the truce either!!! That’s precisely the point!

The truce was signed between the Israeli government and Hamas, and Hamas scrupulously respected it by prosecuting and jailing the Islamic Jihad terrorists who had shot the rockets.

DOH! Hamas are the de-facto govt of Gaza. They have responsibility. So, did they arrest Islamic Jihad?

‘Hasbara Buster’, none of the posters here condemn you as well as you do it yourself. You lack even an ounce of humanity towards a certain people with whom you are totally obsessed. What a sad life you must lead, possessed as you are of demons you cannot control.

It was not possible for me to watch the clip beyond the word ‘ovens’. The cruelty of the demonstrators had no bounds. And all you could think of to cover up such hideous words was that some ‘Sephardis said it to some Ashkenazis’. Why would anyone believe you of all people? Your very title conjures up lies and half-truths, and that is how you are perceived. You would be most welcome on any jihadi website – your thoughts and goals mirror theirs.

“TheIrie – I don’t think it is possible to discuss this with you for the simple reason that you conveniently divide Hamas up into, inter alia, terrorists, militants, the political wing, moderates…” Others then say that they are separate from the people of Gaza and go on about “collective punishment” while at the same time declaring that Hamas have a democratic mandate. The long and the short of it seems to be to claim simultaniously that everyone acts in concert, but that blame can only be attached to a slippery and illussive section. It’s all very convenient.”

Well, this is a perfectly sensible comment – lets think about it. Hamas is somewhat complicated. On the one hand you have all the elements that HP focus on – the charter, the terrorism, the throwing off of buildings, the Islamism. On the other hand, you have statements from senior members that peace with Israel is possible, and a record of, partially at least, sticking to ceasefires (the record is, as I’ve said, at least as good as Israels). Now, its a fact that they were given a democratic mandate. Its a fact that the US and Israel poured arms into Gaza from Egypt to support Fatah in over throwing Hamas. Its a fact that this resulted in a minor civil war, the spliting of the Palestinian authority into Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. Fatah, incidentally, also threw people off roofs and also have rocket launching militant wings. Then came the unity government, whereby Hamas agreed to share power with Fatah, despite the efforts made to overthrow Hamas – I repeat – the democratically elected government. Now, even if we accept the charge that Hamas came to power in a coup (untrue, but for the sake of argument). Does that mean that anyone labeled “Hamas” is fair game? Policemen? Students? What twisted criteria has evolved that suddenly civilians, by virtue of some link with Hamas, can be targetted for killing? What about the moderates?

So, its rather more complicated than you seem able to appreciate. You can’t just weild this label “Hamas” as if that is a meaningful, homogenous grouping. And civilians are civilians, regardless of their political affliations.

If its that hard, imagine if it was the Labour party. You had Galloway, Corbyn, Benn. Then you had Blair, Mandelson and Straw. They are all linked to the same party, but have vastly different ideologies and policies. If a foreign power was to wage war on Britain, and target the labour party, say because of the Iraq war, we all know they would be targetting many people who strongly opposed it. Why would you think Palestinian politics is any different?

After trying to debate with people over at CiF I realise that there are some people so attached to propaganda lies that I’m not suprised the hatred they come out with.

I’m constantly arguing with people who argue that Israel is “murdering’ hundreds of Gazans, that its a Genocide, Israel is acting illegally and that they broke the ceasefire. None of these things are true.

Remember the Palestinian claim that Israel was about to blow up a hospital on Day Two? Not true.

Today the Palestinians reported ’six palestinian civilians killed in house” – in fact Sky News are repeating it as I type. Yet, 15 mins ago Fox, who had also reported it, have stated that Reuters have withdrawn it.

Hamas, the main Palestinian faction in Gaza, has urged all sides to respect the ceasefire

Amazing that there are members of Homo sapiens that buy this crap.

It’s people like Hasbara Buster and HPHypocrite that have really ruined threads of late, Benji seems like an old friend in comparison. While I’m here… Nearly Oxbowlakeian, I think you read a thread and post comments as you go. This sometimes leads to you having five or six comments in a row. That’s what David T meant when he asked you not to comment so much. It would be better if the 5 or 6 was just one big one, then we could all just ignore that.

As for the matter in hand it’s easy to find extremists with unpleasant views. T’internet makes it even easier. It seems naive to think there are none on our side. Does it matter?

Benjamin, well done for spotting and obvious typo. Is it your pedantic nature that makes you an object for endless scorn on HP?

NO and Mark should read Israeli historian Tom Segev’s opinion of whether past Israeli military actions have been successful in halting rocket attacks

Jesus wept, another ignoramus who has not served in any military unit for even 5 seconds, has not touched a gun in his life, has never been within 1000 miles of a shooting war – and yet spouts military ‘wisdom’.

Past actions have not been remotely like this one (after all, your side are the ones screeching that ‘it’s the most Nazi Israeli assault on the poor innocent Gazans since 1967′). Therefore, past actions are not useful as a comparison.

Next!

It would be better if the 5 or 6 was just one big one, then we could all just ignore that

I don’t post for the convenience of idiots who choose to keep their eyes tight shut against the facts.

And all you could think of to cover up such hideous words was that some ‘Sephardis said it to some Ashkenazis’. Why would anyone believe you of all people?

When I provide links to support my claims, you say you won’t bother to read them or that I’m a nutcase obsessively surfing the web to collect tidbits of Israel-inculpating evidence. When I don’t provide the links, however, you complain that no links were provided. What gives?

Unfortunately, the bit about the Sephardim sneering at the Ashkenazim over the Holocaust is part of my private correspondence with an Israeli lady. Allow me to recant that statement until I find information publicly available on the web to confirm it.

You would be most welcome on any jihadi website – your thoughts and goals mirror theirs.

But have you ever actually read what I write? Do you think a Jihadi would be terribly pleased to read what I have to say about the Gaza op?

Koppers, it’s that but mainly his smugness.

Just to clarify: my comments above were not directed at Segev but at the poster, who clearly once again read (???) and misunderstood Segev and used him in the wrong context.

I’m a nutcase obsessively surfing the web to collect tidbits of Israel-inculpating evidence

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Tony Blair will be going out there soon to sort this out.

I joined the march in London organised to protest against Israel’s bombing of the Lebanon in 2006. I didn’t hear anything as mental as “go back to the ovens” but there was still too much crazy shit on display for me to handle, and “We are all Hezbollah” was the final straw.

Why do the loudest mouths tend to be the maddest? I want someone to organise sensible marches for nice moderate folk to march in favour of a two-state solution, everyone acknowledging everyone else’s right to exist, and a rejection of policies involving people getting blown up – whether by Qassams or by bombs dropped from F-16s.

Well, NO, it’s quite impossible to debate with you, since you raised the past record as evidence that military force works, then when confronted with the views of someone considerably more knowledgable than you or I, suddenly “past actions are not useful as a comparison”. Shameless.

Hamas [has] a record of, partially at least, sticking to ceasefires (the record is, as I’ve said, at least as good as Israels).

Why does anyone even bother to pass the time of day with such a person?

since you raised the past record as evidence that military force works

You must confuse me with some figment of your … hmmmm … overactive imagination.

Your inability to debate even the simplest point is quite breathtaking. There is no such thing as ‘military force works’ in a vacuum, and I have specifically pointed out that this current action is more extensive than past ones. Is that really beyond your grasp, or are you running a mile, as usual, when your ‘arguments’ are destroyed, trying to deflect and dissemble and basically throwing your toys out of the pram?

And this creature calls me ’shameless’. Oh dear.

“For Ziobots. Hamas Broke The Gaza Ceasefire six days after it was announced http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7470530.stm

Don’t let them get away with these lies that it was broken in November by Israel.

”

Is that picture before or after the rocket attack?

Kool aid – I’m with you on that one. Although, I reckon the majority on all these marches aren’t the loonies – loonies just tend to be rather loud! I’ll probably be marching in London tomorrow. If I do I’ll give an account in the comments here, even though I’m surely considered way too biased to be objective on this blog!

TheIrie, as much as I disagree with you on issues I wouldn’t doubt your eyewitness account. Please share it.

Tony Blair will be going out there soon to sort this out.

That will do the trick – I can see it now, Israel and Hamas saying “look, we’ll sign any kind of peace deal you like, just send that fucker back home!”

Koppers, it’s that but mainly his smugness.

Nox, thanks for clearing that up – smugness about what one asks oneself?

TheIrie, I can’t help wondering why you consider this demonstration more worthy of your participation than a protest against the repression of Iranian trade unionists, but I look forward to your unbiased account.

On a note rather more related to the original post.
Whilst I appreciate that Gene provided a disclaimer of sorts, isn’t HP normally against linking to material provided by people with “dubious views“?

I am not suggesting that this Tom Trento chap is the equivalent of an ex-KKK Grand Wizard, but he is a spokesman for the United American Committee which promotes an early 20th century Christian missionary in India’s views on Islam (with the innocuous title ‘Life And Religion of Mohammed‘ as being:
A profound look into the life of the founder of one of the most deadly ideologies known to man.

A little bit more worryingly, have a look at the UAC’s Jim Horn talking about “the real Islam“. Apparently we are at war with “honest Muslims like Osama bin Laden” not Islamists/whoever. This is the kind of anti-Muslim bigotry you expect to see in the comment threads on HP, not in the original posting. At 2:14ish, “Islam is a cult, nothing more”. At 3:05 we get the standard bigoted crap about taqiyya, at 3:12 he describes as “BS” the idea that “Muslims are not the enemy”. At about 5:00, Muslims know that by destroying America they will destroy all of civilisation and from 6′ onwards he talks about fighting an unlimited war against Muslims and from 6:30 we have a paranoid conspiracy theory about how Muslims are taking over America through stock markets, oil, investing in media and the “Muslim lobby” in Washington. At 8:14 Muslims are described as a fifth column in America.

Here Tom Trento describes (at 4:05ish) Atlas Shrugs as “one of the most important websites in the world” and warmly welcomes Pamela Geller, who writes for it.
Here she quotes Oriana Fallici approvingly when she writes: “Don’t believe in a dialog with Islam. That’s a naivete. It can only be a monologue. They do not believe in pluralism. There is no such thing as a “moderate Islam” and a Radical Islam. There is only one Islam.”
I too believe this as much as it pains me to say it. I would like nothing better to believe that there is a side we can do business with, talk to. But that is self deluding.
She also believes in an “Islamic war on the west“. NB, not an Islamist/extremist war.
And, in covering current events in Israel, she writes of “A Jewish home bombed by Islam”

I think it very sad that a poster on HP has created such a clear connection between this site and anti-Muslim bigots. Even with Gene’s little disclaimer., this could be used justifiably by many of HP’s detractors to discredit the very worthwhile work done by the likes of David T in exposing the efforts of Islamists and other bigots.

Well, if I do go, I’ll tell you all about it.

Gene – I did go to that Iranian trade union protest, if you remember. Entirely uninterestingly, I accidentally dropped my ID card outside the Iranian embassy, and the police kindly handed it in at my place of work. I also conceeded that it was an entirely worthwhile protest – not a neo-con put up job!

Gene – I did go to that Iranian trade union protest, if you remember. Entirely uninterestingly, I accidentally dropped my ID card outside the Iranian embassy, and the police kindly handed it in at my place of work. I also conceeded that it was an entirely worthwhile protest – not a neo-con put up job!

OK, my apologies. I thought I remembered you writing that you had just walked past it.

Well, I didn’t exactly storm the barricades, but I signed the petition and hung around for a while giving their turnout a +1.

HB, no thank you. We read more than enough from you on HP. If a palestinian gets a nick on the nail on the small toe of his left foot, you will find a way of blaming Israel and/or Jews. That is your raison d’etre.

“Allow me to recant that statement until I find information publicly available on the web to confirm it.”

You really are in the grip of an obsession you cannot control. Fancy spending time on endless trivialities only to cast Israelis as the baddies. Do something useful with your time and start a campaign to rescue Zimbabweans from the clutches of mugabe. Or perhaps you could help out the oppressed Copts in egypt; or the persecuted Shia in saudi; or the severely persecuted Ahwazi Arabs and the Bahai’is and Zoroastrians in iran; or the enslaved and displaced Darfuris in Sudan; or perhaps the disenfranchised and oppressed Kurds in syria. They are disenfranchised precisely so that the state gets out of providing them with all the basics you take for granted, such as basic infrastructure, health care, education and the like. They are not entitled to any of these, by the simple expedient of refusing them citizenship.

What about the Berbers, displaced and disenfranchised in the Maghreb? Are you aware that they are the indigenous population, who have been largely ethnically cleansed by the Arabs? Have you ever given a second thought to the Western Sahara, occupied completely by morocco ever since the Portuguese pulled out of the territory they colonised? Do you even know a single detail about the Polisario? Have you heard of them? Do you care about the precarious condition of the Maronites in Lebanon, or all those who do not want to be ruled by the clerical fascists of hizbollah? How about the condition of the Chechnyans, 100,000 of whom were decimated by the Russians? Assad senior bulldozed the town of Hama in 1982, killing all 20,000 inhabitants in less than a week. Does HB ever obsess about that monstrosity? Does the condition of the Uighurs matter to you, or should the Chinese continue to oppress them with impunity because HB is not interested? Is it acceptable that the Tibetans have been occupied since the 1950s? And what about the poor Ahmadis in pakistan? They regard themselves as muslim, but the dominant pakistani sunni muslims consider them heretics, and deprive them of all civil rights and worse. Does it matter to you that Christians in pakistan are severely persecuted, or that the Shia in pakistan are downtrodden? Congo, of course, tops the lot. 4.5 millions have been killed there since the mid-nineties. But HB ain’t interested.

HB is not interested because there are no Jews in the equation in any of the above conflicts. HB gets his kicks from Jew-bashing alone. This is what lies behind anti-Semitism – when the Jewish state alone is singled out, day in and day out, and scrutinised in a way that no other country on earth is scrutinised, and all to satisfy the obsession of one HB and his think-alikes.

It is time that the groups named above are favoured with at least one-hundredth of the attention given to the Islamic/Israeli conflict. Then perhaps their oppressors will be obliged to treat them with some consideration.

Gsirrah reminds me of one of those helicopters letting off rockets in all directions in order to confuse heat seeking missiles, as it progresses determinedly through the skies.

So it’s KKK, anti-Muslim bigotry, appeals to pluralism, Orianna Fallici, UAC…doesn’t matter what – just keep pumping out those rockets to confuse the enemy.

It’s everything except addressing the issues.

The fact is that the demonstrators were making disgusting remarks and want to see the destruction of Israel.

And does anyone seriously contend that any of that lot would ever shed a tear about 9-11? I can see them secretly smirking with pleasure.

And it is one thing to criticise a link to a book about Mohammed and his religion. It is quite another to demonstrate that Mohammed led a commendable life or that his belief system is a good and moral one that we should embrace as part of a pluralistic culture.

For what it’s worth I think Fallici got it essentially right and the West has got it essentially wrong by allowing people like this who hate democracy and freedom to live among them.

Field. I am not trying to contest that Gene was making a point that is worth making. I disagreed with the source he used to make it because it will leave HP open to valid accusations of providing tacit support to anti-Muslim bigots and thereby undermine the very important work done by HP in confronting Islamism.

Nice post Gene. I echo your thoughts.

Londoner

“Or perhaps you could help out the oppressed Copts in egypt; or the persecuted Shia in saudi; or the severely persecuted Ahwazi Arabs and the Bahai’is and Zoroastrians in iran; or the enslaved and displaced Darfuris in Sudan; or perhaps the disenfranchised and oppressed Kurds in syria. ”

Oh dear you appear to have an obsession about Muslims.
These groups are oppressed; but you neglect to mention that the majorities in those lands are also oppressed and denied basic rights.
Who gives a toss hey they’re only Arabs.

“What about the Berbers, displaced and disenfranchised in the Maghreb? Are you aware that they are the indigenous population, who have been largely ethnically cleansed by the Arabs? ”

Are you aware that you are talking out of your hole? Or that virtually all the Islamic dynasties in the Maghreb have been Berber run? Or that Tariq ibn Ziyad who led the Muslim (often incorrectly called Arab) invasion of Spain was a Berber as were all his troops?

Its rather like condeming the opression of the Scots because not many of them speak Gaelic then ignoring the fact we have a Scottish PM.

“HB is not interested because there are no Jews in the equation in any of the above conflicts. HB gets his kicks from Jew-bashing alone. ”

Much like you do with Muslims?

“This is what lies behind anti-Semitism – when the J
ewish state alone is singled out, day in and day out, and scrutinised in a way that no other country on earth is scrutinised, and all to satisfy the obsession of one HB and his think-alikes.”

He almost certainly does this because this is what is on the news. You are right about the I/P conflict getting an inordinate amount of coverage (and this applies to both sides- for example the deaths of even a few Israelis in suicide bombing will get far more coverage than a slaughter in Africa) but there are a number of reasons for this-
1) the middle east where all this takes place is the most important strategic place on earth in terms of resources,
2)Israel/Palestine is unique in being the holy land – a land holy to not one but 3 faiths and we live in a predominantly Christian nation. One imagines it gets less coverage in places like Buddhist Thailand
3) A different type of racism -Israelis (and one could even argue Arabs in the region) are like “us”- white Europeans /wealthy or certainly more so that the non-white Africans.

It is also being focussed on because there is a war there and what bleeds leads. If there wasnt conflict it wouldnt be. Compare how much Northern Ireland or Vietnam are in the news now compared to when they were at war.

To argue that focus on Israel is based on some inate anti-semitism is a weak argument. Other than white supremacists (who have little access to media outlet) no other ideaology has inherent anti-semitic prejudice( and in a western world where many non-whites have now settled some white supremacists have changed their tack)

As an addendum to what I wrote -presently we are in the so-called “war against terrorism” – thus acts done by Muslim terrorist are focussed on far more than worse atrocities done by others.

There was far more focus on the Beslan massacre than on the killing of 52,000 Chechen children by the Russians (during the cold war it would have been the reverse even if the numbers were reverse – so the fact that the Soviets lost 20 million in WWII was glossed over since they were the enemy)

Likewise the Mumbai atrocities which killed 200 people. These were splashed all over the world. The extermination of 2000 Muslims in the Gujurat pogroms in 2002 accompanied by mass rape and cultural genocide was barely mentioned (indeed HP focussed on Mumbai and ignored Gujurat)

The extermination of 2000 Muslims in the Gujurat pogroms in 2002 accompanied by mass rape and cultural genocide was barely mentioned (indeed HP focussed on Mumbai and ignored Gujurat)

Well, Gujurat happened before Harry’s Place existed. Otherwise I believe we would have posted about it.

HPhypocrite –

You can give all the reasons you like for why the I-P land dispute is given such huge coverage. But that doesn’t make it right to apply a higher standard of behaviour to Israel than other countries. When the USA lost 2000 citizens in attacks by Islamists (= about 40 citizens pro rata for Israel) it unleashed two wars in defence of its homeland, engaged in extraordinary rendition and torture and continues to act aggressively in defence of itself to this day, despite it suffering no further successful attacks.

India continues to occupy half of Kashmir where the majority population is Muslim.

China occupies the whole of Tibet in defiance of the wishes of Tibetans.

Russia occupies large chunks of Georgia against the wishes of Georgians.

Burma and Zimbabwe oppress their people in vile ways.

Saudi Arabia persecutes non-Muslims and operates undercover slavery.

In the Sudan Arab Jihadis murder, rape, enslave and loot their way through Darfur in racist attacks.

Much of the Congo continues to suffer appalling brutality.

But only Israel it appears is expected to answer to the highest standards. What would happen if Israel followed China’s lead and asked to host the Olympics one wonders…?

Gene

“Well, Gujurat happened before Harry’s Place existed. Otherwise I believe we would have posted about it.”

Mmm well so did 9/11 and youve hardly ignored that have you?

Well, Gujurat happened before Harry’s Place existed. Otherwise I believe we would have posted about it.

Or maybe not. I’ve seen much concern about the Copts here, but little about Iraqi Christians, who have fled to — Syria!!! Or about Iraqi gays, who have fled to — Jordan!!!

I’m afraid this is a fresh instance of pots, kettles and blackness.

Gene
Read some of the posts that are pro the violence on this site.
Some are very racist and full of blood lust.
I haven’t seen a post from you or your comrades asking any one to calm down.
I actually think you would say to “necessary death to arabs”

field

“HPhypocrite -
You can give all the reasons you like for why the I-P land dispute is given such huge coverage. But that doesn’t make it right to apply a higher standard of behaviour to Israel than other countries. When the USA lost 2000 citizens in attacks by Islamists (= about 40 citizens pro rata for Israel) it unleashed two wars in defence of its homeland, engaged in extraordinary rendition and torture and continues to act aggressively in defence of itself to this day, despite it suffering no further successful attacks.

India continues to occupy half of Kashmir where the majority population is Muslim.”

Are you suggesting the US wasnt criticised for its action in Iraq and Afghanistan??!! The funny thing is the same left (and occasionally right wing) who did criticise it were accused of appeasing “Islamofacsism/terror/JihadiNazi extremism” (choose extreme adjective of your choice) much as those who defend the Kashmiris and the Palestinians are

“Saudi Arabia persecutes non-Muslims and operates undercover slavery.”

Persecutes is to strong a word – they dont go around hunting non-Muslims to kill. They do ban them from practicising their faith. The fact that you ignore the vastly bigger Saudi majority which has few rights such as the right of dissent (and this includes Muslims who dont follow the wahabbi school) is extraordinary

I believe you have a strong aversion to Arabs and to admitting Arab Muslims are also opressed.

“In the Sudan Arab Jihadis murder, rape, enslave and loot their way through Darfur in racist attacks.”

Tsk Tsk you were doing so well. Your mentioning the race of the people doing this (Arab) while not doing so with the other examples is highly revealing

Hasbara buster

“Or maybe not. I’ve seen much concern about the Copts here, but little about Iraqi Christians, who have fled to — Syria!!! Or about Iraqi gays, who have fled to — Jordan!!!”

Quite – the thread seems to be “Ay-rabs are bad” There is a generalised anti-Muslim slant but its particularly focussed on Arab Muslims. Cant imagine why. Though its probably more an anti-those who are anti-Israel slant.

HP Hyprocrite:

“Persecutes is to strong a word – they dont go around hunting non-Muslims to kill. They do ban them from practicising their faith. The fact that you ignore the vastly bigger Saudi majority which has few rights such as the right of dissent (and this includes Muslims who dont follow the wahabbi school) is extraordinary”

If you don’t think prosecuting and punishing apostates, closing down places of worship and prohibitions on Jews living in Arabia doesn’t amount to persecution I am not sure what does.

Arab is not a race. It’s an ethnic and linguistic group with cultural affinities. It can comprise persons indistinguishable from Europeans in places like Syria and Lebanon to persons who are clearly Negro Africans.

You can give all the reasons you like for why the I-P land dispute is given such huge coverage. But that doesn’t make it right to apply a higher standard of behaviour to Israel than other countries.

When the Palestinians kill Jews, it makes headlines. When the Tamil Tigers kill Sinhalese people in much higher numbers, it gets very little if any coverage.

Why do you think a different standard of behavior is applied to the Palestinians than to the Tamils, the Lord’s Resistance Army and other terror groups that are objectively more murderous than Hamas?

Look at Google Earth. Gaza is a STRIP, narrow and densely populated. If you launch rockets from it, civilians are inevitably in the line of returning fire. A military fact.

When the Palestinians kill Jews, it makes headlines. When the Tamil Tigers kill Sinhalese people in much higher numbers, it gets very little if any coverage.

Klutz, change the wording to :-

When the Israelis kill Palestinians, it makes headlines. When the Tamil Tigers kill Sinhalese people in much higher numbers, it gets very little if any coverage.

The song remains the same.

MANO, r uas stupid as you sound? Hamas never stopped lobbing rockets into Israel. It only reduced the number of launches. Hamas has one intention, to destroy Israel. You probably agree with there goal so there is very little left to discuss and that is when weapons come into play. By the way, did the cow holding the “nuke israel” sign stop to think what a nulcear atack on Israel would do to her beloved “palestinians”?

Benjamin, are you as much of a fool as Mano or do you only sound like a fool.? If you knowingly allow weapons and rockets to be installed in your back yard then you are no longer a civilian. You are an accomplice. Hamas has one goal and that is the destrcution of Israel. If they actually cared about the civilians of Gaza they would stop lobbing rockets at Israel and enter in honest negotiations. Grow up. This is the real world and not some philosophy class about fairness. The only course of action Israel has to destroy the rockets that hamas has hidden amongst the population.

RE: “If you knowingly allow weapons and rockets to be installed in your back yard then you are no longer a civilian.”
AND
“This is the real world and not some philosophy class about fairness.”

Who is this clever man. Very well put.

MANO, r uas stupid as you sound? Hamas never stopped lobbing rockets into Israel. It only reduced the number of launches.

Wrong.

It wasn’t Hamas; it was Islamic Jihad. See — there are differences between Muslims. They’re not all the same. It’s not like you can tell them all to jump at the same time and they will. Which is a good thing for the stability of the Earth’s orbit.

HB –

That’s a bit like saying the Catholic Action Force had nothing to do with the IRA.

Just because the chameleon changes colour, doesn’t mean you aren’t dealing with the same animal.

How many Islamic Jihad activists have been detained, charged and prosecuted by Hamas?

If you knowingly allow weapons and rockets to be installed in your back yard then you are no longer a civilian.

As if Gazan’s can stand up to Hamas now. But if there are weapons in your back yard then your house is a legitimate target and if Hamas doesn’t allow you to vacate that house then you are a human shield.

And a victim of Hamas’ crimes, by the way.

So, yes this is not a philosophy class, but even if it were a philosophy class, Benji would be failing of course

Because he really is that stupid.

” I was just pointing out that the Israeli army is rather more effective at killing than Hamas. Which seems rather ironic.”

This is how Benjamin addresses the topic — in this case why some one shouting “go back to the ovens” should be challenged by her fellow demos. He doesn’t — he diverts it into a path he can snipe at.

Benjy also destroys his own argument about civilians in the firing line by arguing that while Hellfire missiles are specifically targeted, Hamas’s rockets aren’t capable of being directed or targeted accurately. Yes, well, since the rocketeers know that, their actions are clearly the more irresponsible, indeed wicked.