Harry’s Place

One can only hope that by the time these antisemites and ignoramuses assemble, the IDF will already be digging the little Hitlers out of their bunkers.

the whole ‘apes and pigs’ thing needs to end). Tamimi’s article also expresses his hopes for the future:

Well the pigs thing may not be quite kosher, but the apes thing is. After all, as the ICZN (International Code on Zoological Nomenclature) tells us, we, like all hominids past, are not just descended from earlier apes, we - all humans - ARE apes!

Though I must confess, some modern human groups seem to be doing their very best to regress and form their own sub genus… homo Jihadi.

Yeah Adam, because, like, everyone who is revolted by the killing of Palestinian civilians is an anti-semite. Grow up.

great post - be careful who you march with

they’re all hezbollah now

Everyone who is more revolted by the unintentional killing of Palestinian civilians than the intentional slaughter of Israeli civilians, or any other civilians, certainly is an antisemite.

And to be fair, I did mention ignoramuses.

Anyone who believes that Israel is conducting some kind of brutal slaughter of Palestinian civilians is just fucking hallucinating. Mass psychosis, and you’ll see it on the streets tomorrow.

Who said anything about valuing the 4 lost lives on one side more than the 400 on the other Adam? Only an anti-semite would call that disproportionate, right?

The fact is Adam, that I bet it’s hard to think of anything the Israeli military could do to the densely populated area that is Gaza, which you would not be willing to countenance. Or correct me if I’m wrong.

Yeah Adam, because, like, everyone who is revolted by the killing of Palestinian civilians is an anti-semite. Grow up.

What a pathetic statement.

What is revolting is your obvious ignorance of what is the nature of Hamas and how little they care for their supposed constituents, not to mention their hatred of Jews.

Well, that didn’t take long at all. I was wondering how long before Harry’s Place was going to post something saying in advance that everyone coming to the march tomorrow would be anti-semitic terrorist bastards… just in case people weren’t aware.

Frankly, I couldn’t give a fuck about the BMI. And I have no love for Tammimi at all. But I’m going to march, and I’m going to find a placard saying (or create my own) : “No to Hamas, No to the IDF”.

I bet that will really annoy the fuck out of some commenters here.

“Who said anything about valuing the 4 lost lives on one side more than the 400 on the other Adam? Only an anti-semite would call that disproportionate, right?”

Proportionality cannot be measured in the number of casualties otherwise you are penalising the Israelis for building bomb shelters for their citizens. Proportionality is determined by the limits of what is necessary to achieve legitimate military aims. Preventing Hamas from firing rockets at Israeli citizens is a legitimate aim for the Israeli government. Civilian casualties in Gaza are regrettable and can be minimised as much as possible but cannot be avoided all together.

VP - I think we can both agree that all but the Israeli far right and the Palestinian far right benefit from armed Hamas men being left to rule Gaza and launch rockets at Israel.
How would you deal with them?

I’ll say you’re wrong. TheyIsraelis could bomb indiscriminately, like Hamas. But they dont, otherwise the death toll would be in the thousands.
As for your silly numbers game 4 - 400, it is wrong and disingenuous. Firstly by UN measure, at least 300 of those are Hamas operatives. Second, most if not all the other 100 deaths are attributable to Hamas hiding itself and its weaponry behind civilian skirts (did you hear about the secondary explosions going on and on at the “mosque” that got bombed. oh those terrible israelis destroying a mosque that was used as a weapons cache). Third the fact that the number is 4 and not 40, 400 or 4,000 is something Hamas no doubt regrets but is the result of Hamas incompetence and/or Israeli security measures, both in Israel and Gaza (that horrible blockade you know). 4th, if you don’t want to be bombed, don’t send hundreds of rockets into a stronger neighbor.

“all but the Israeli far right and the Palestinian far right”

Sorry,
no one not “all”

Quel Surprise! Marches on a Saturday (as ever!). The one day of the week that there’s not going to be any opposition because the jews *aherm* zionist will all be in synagogue/with their families.

Hey Sunny: I don’t recall anybody saying you were anti-semitic if you joined the march, only issuing a warning to be careful who you’re marching with, as there seem to be a lot of anti-jewish racists mixed in the crowd.

And judging from what i’ve seen of pro-Hamas demos in Vancouver and elsewhere, you’ll probably hear a lot of “palestine must be free, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA”. Now you don’t have to be too bright to understand they are calling for Israel’s destruction and replacement with a Palestinian state. That may not be anti-semitic but it certainly reveals their true colors; so much for peace, two-state solution, etc.

Luckily they can chant till their lungs turn blue for all the effect it will have, as Israel ain’t going nowhere, and to egg the Palestinians to settle for nothing less than “river to sea” is simply to prolong their misery. In short, anti-israeli and anti-palestinian. neat trick. have fun at the rally.

my new slogan:
From the River to the Sea
Prolongs Palestinian Misery

The leader of The Free World spells it out that a support for Hamas is a support for the terrorists who started this conflict .

I give you GWB http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/02/transcript-pres-bush-addresses-gaa-fighting-radio-address/

To defend Sunny, I think there will be other people with similar views on that demonstration.
I heard Bianca Jagger and Annie Lennox both calling for a halt to Hamas rockets on TV today.
I suggest Sunny stands next to them rather than the Hamas front organisations or their useful idiot allies.

“No to Hamas, No to the IDF”.

I almost support you placard. How about “No to Hamas so no need for the IDF”. Then you would be separating agressor from responder and indicating cause and effect. We all have an affinity for wishing the Palestinians all the best and minimal suffering. You could have a banner that says “End the Occupation. Hamas out of Gaza” or “Set the Palestinians free - from Hamas” - Dare yuh!

It’s interesting to note that, whilst there is no overt indication of the support that the PSC lends to Hamas in its English section, the small Arabic language summary of the ‘movement’ is quite revealing:

وتؤمن حملة التضامن مع فلسطين بأن معاناة الفلسطينيين لن تنتهي ما لم يتم التوصل لحل عادل ونهائي للنزاع ولذلك فهي تساند حق الفلسطينيين بالمقاومة, وذلك عن طريق التركيز على التوعية والحملات السياسية.

And the PSC believes that the suffering of the Palestinians will not end unless there is a definitive and just solution to the conflict and it is therefore the right of the Palestinians to support the resistance, to focus on awareness-raising and political campaigns.

You’ll note the word ‘resistance’. In Arabic, the most common word for resistance is مقاومة (muqāwamah). You won’t be surprised to know that the full name for Hamas, an Arabic ‘acronym’, is حركة المقاومة الاسلامية (Ḥarakat ul-Muqāwamat il -Islāmiyyah) or the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Coincidence?

I heard Bianca Jagger and Annie Lennox both calling for a halt to Hamas rockets on TV today.

You sure?

I saw a Sky News flasher on the Fox commercial break that said “Annie Lennox and Alexei Sale have called for an end to the slaughter in Gaza”

What is revolting is your obvious ignorance of what is the nature of Hamas and how little they care for their supposed constituents, not to mention their hatred of Jews.

Of course I know what Hamas is. I also know that the population of Gaza is not composed of card-carrying Hamas members. I also know that military ordinance does not generally carry a special detector which means it only kills terrorists. Not sure whether you do, though.

Or how about a placard which says:

‘Warsaw 1943. Gaza 2009.’

Who said anything about valuing the 4 lost lives on one side more than the 400 on the other Adam? Only an anti-semite would call that disproportionate, right?

You can’t get away from the facts that:

a) Hamas were the ones who unilaterally ended the ceasefire.

b) Israel is going after Hamas targets - not civilians.

c) Using the cover of civilians for military purposes is a war crime.

d) Hamas are doing all in their powers to kill as many Israelis (civilians or military) with all they can muster - Israel is doing the opposite.

e) Shreiking the accusation that you’ve been called me an anti-semite, when none has been made, is not the behaviour of a normal person.

Tim: you back them into a political corner.

“No to Hamas, No to the IDF”

That’s about as interesting as Quakerism. I mean, the equivalence making between the defensive army of a democratic state and an explicitly antisemitic fascist militia is annoying only so far as the author thinks it’s somehow “edgy.”

Somehow I doubt that Sunny will challenge the racist, exterminationist elements at the march tomorrow, because to do so would require both bravery and independence…two things Sunny has never demonstrated, despite what he thinks of himself.

Vildechaye - ok let’s take your figures - that 25% of the current death toll (it’s probably risen since you wrote that) are civilians. Even should that be the case it’s still disgusting, and the rest of your comment, frankly, is no more than partisan conjecture.

Anyone who believes that Israel is conducting some kind of brutal slaughter of Palestinian civilians is just fucking hallucinating. Mass psychosis, and you’ll see it on the streets tomorrow.

I keep hearing its a “genocidal, ethnic cleansing slaughter, atrocity massacre murder of innocent people by indiscriminate carpet bombing, napalm, agent orange and low-grade nuclear weapons”

If you tell me its not then I will find your credibility is nil and you just hate all Arabs and Muslims! (LOL!!!)

And to be fair to Annie Lennox, she has been ceaselessly protesting the Hamas missile barrages on Sderot for the last few years.

25% of the current death toll (it’s probably risen since you wrote that) are civilians

Considering that Voltaire is one of these numbers-pacifists, I wonder why he doesn’t figure out the proportion of Israeli civilian deaths?

VP - I suspect that does not exclude killing an armed Hamas militiaman about to target Israeli civilians or a Palestinian Trade Union office.

I would do it … If I have the opportunity I would do it … If I can go to Palestine and sacrifice myself I would do it.

We all would love to blow up, but who has the time?

Also, Sunny? You can choose to march with as many terrorists as you like. You can protest against the right of civilians to defend themselves from terrorism all you want, and I won’t lose any respect for you. I promise. But for the obvious reason.

Wot’s a “numbers-pacifist” then, Shmuel? And if I’m one of those then does that make you a moral massacre monger?

Of course I know what Hamas is. I also know that the population of Gaza is not composed of card-carrying Hamas members.

I know that the world must be rid of Hamas, and if the Gazan’s don’t have the will to do it then Hamas’ other victims have the right - in fact they have the duty to defend their lives and children and freedom.

Tim - indeed.

Maven - “LOL?” I would have thought whatever position one takes, it’s hardly a “LOL” moment.

Josh, that statement is just rhetorical bollocks. “Defend their freedom” from Hamas? As though these people would be ruling Israel but for these attacks?

VP he’s not laughing at the situation on the ground he’s laughing at ignorant morons like yourself.

Wot’s a “numbers-pacifist” then, Shmuel?

It’s a term I just coined to refer to people who make their dogmatic “antiwar” arguments based merely on death tolls while avoiding the intent of the parties involved in this conflict. Its a stupid kind of morality and only superficially pacifist because it doesn’t aim at real peace, only “proportionality” and maintaining the status quo.

That you think that people who support this operation take pleasure in the death of civilians says a lot about you.

Dear Israeli Govt,

Would you please arrange it so that more Israelis are killed by Hamas because protestors feel uncomfortable that too few Israeli are killed compared to Palestinian casualties.

I am sure that as a moral country you will comply. To be fair you may use the figure of 7m Israelis versus 1.8m Gazans.

Yours Sincerely,

Palestinian Solidarity Committee and various other mainly loony Islamist Organisations with Terrorist Links.

PS - some of the guys with beards ask if they might be Jews please.

Voltaire, what’s the proportion of Israeli civilian deaths in this conflict?

VP you’re right, at the moment all that would happen if they didn’t defend themselves is that innocent people would die, a rocket at a time, a blown up bus full of poor people who can’t afford cars at a time.

But Hamas’ intention is to deprive Israelis of democracy (or just their lives), just as they have already deprived Gazans of their democracy.

Intentions do count because the war will continue until intentions are achieved and just because Hamas lacks WMDs now doesn’t mean they won’t in the future if allowed to thrive.

In any case, if VP doesn’t agree that Israelis have a duty to defend their freedoms, what excuse does he have for ignoring their duty to defend their lives and their children’s lives?

I wouldn’t think a sensible person would want to march with this lot for all the reasons listed in the original post. But that’s just me.

Shmuel - what’s the proprtion of Gazan civilian deaths, as against Israeli, in the past seven days, is the pertinent question.

Oh, and when’s the next Israeli general election would be the second.

Of course it’s safe to assume not only that all who will be protesting tomorrow are antisemitic but also that they all support Hamas.

It must be ‘nice’ to live in a world where everything is so clear cut.

There was no “conjecture” in the rest of my remarks. They were facts or obvious points (i.e. if hamas didn’t rocket, Israel wouldn’t bomb). As for the 100 killed, as i noted, if only Hamas shared your disgust, they probably would have put their civilians in bomb shelters like Israelis do. I’m also wondering whether you were as perturbed about civilian bombing when the Russians killed (by most estimates) between 200,000 and 300,000 when levelling Grozny to the ground.

That Palestinian poet, Darwish, was spot on when he wryly pointed out that the sole reason the Palestinian cause has any traction because their enemies are the Jews. Did you even waste a drop of ink when the Lebanese pulverized that Palestinian refugee camp in the north, killing scores? didn’t think so.

VP I guess you’re finding that its easy to get British morons to march in favor of Israelis letting their children be rocketed foreseeable future without response.

Funny how hard it is to get parents in that country to agree to allow their children to be rocketed for the foreseeable future with no response. God damn Jews!

By the way, Britain shouldn’t have responded to the Blitz. So they were dropping bombs and rockets on you - where is your gumption. Stiff upper lip, you pansy!

everyone coming to the march tomorrow would be anti-semitic terrorist bastards

The opening post doesn’t say anything of the sort, but this is how Sunny “reads” it. Interesting.

Frankly, I couldn’t give a fuck about the BMI

Nah, he just participates in their demonstrations. You know, someone who shows up at a BNP-organised event and says he “couldn’t give a fuck” about the racist scum. Just there for “peace” and all that.

Very convincing, Sunny.

Maybe you could get an internship polishing Milne’s boots?

Josh: oh, “LOL” then! Moron.

Shmuel: I think most don’t take pleasure in it (they’re just grossly politically misguided), and a small minority do.

Hamas have only one intention and that is to kill all Jews and return Israel into Islamic lands. They pretends its to do wth the Israel/Palestinian conflict to resolve a Palestinian State but its not. Its not even about Israel returning to some borders because with Hamas in control that means Hamas at the centre of Israel and able to smuggle larger weapons and a nuke.

That is it.

This is why Bush and the USA are firm this times and irrespective of any humaitarian lull there will be NO cessation of hostilities until Hamas no longer exist as a force. Read what Bush has just said. Once USA has re-iterated that you are terrorists then as far as the USA is concerned you need to be defeated.

Ultimately Fatah will be installed. Then we will see that the Marchers for a Second Holocaust will find something else to protest when their beloved Islamist Foot Soldiers can’t destroy Israel.

Anyone who marches in support of Hamas is supporting a second Holocaust against Jews.

Anyone who denies the above is simply a deluded Israel-hating liar.

There is nothing more you can say, except “He’s right!”

That Palestinian poet, Darwish, was spot on when he wryly pointed out that the sole reason the Palestinian cause has any traction because their enemies are the Jews.

That’s true among Muslims. But in the west I always assume that it’s because the Arabs have oil and can be free with the bribes. How much oil did the Israelis offer Galloway, eh?

Funny how there was neve any Solidarity marches with the Muslims in Chechnya. Talk about having a political agenda underneath the humanitarian pretending.

I’m also wondering whether you were as perturbed about civilian bombing when the Russians killed (by most estimates) between 200,000 and 300,000 when levelling Grozny to the ground.

Yes.

And on “that Palestinian refugee camp”, if you’re referring to the Sabra-Shatila massacres in 1982, carried out by Phalangist militias with the full consent and knowledge of the IDF then no, I was three years old so I couldn’t hold a placard. However had I been 23 then yes I would have.

VP - Fair points.
And the chance of a Netanyahu Govt does seem to have receded.

But you must also ask why the majority of the Arab Govts (who want the Saudi peace plan revisited with an Obama Govt) are keen on Hamas being weakened.

Hamas’ leadership in Damascus may be worried about a Syria/Israel deal which could have a bearing on their rocket decisions.
I get the impression that most parties, besides Iran want Hamas to be undermined militarily as well as politically.

RE: Warsaw 1943, Gaza 2009

Buddy, if you think Gaza 2009 in any way resembles Warsaw 1943 you need serious mental help, not to mention remedial academe.

Warsaw ghetto: daily caloric allowance 200
400,000 people stuffed into a 20 block area
Over 2 year period, 350,000 removed in trains to Treblinka for extermination
Wearing yellow star mandatory

What part of gaza do you see in any of that…

no you moron, i’m referring to the Lebanese slaughter last year in the north of Lebanon. Didn’t hear about it; not surprised, your “israel” radar probably missed it. My, was that Palestinian poet ever right!!

Even the West Bank Fatah know which side their bread is buttered as they ban pro-Hamas demonstrations http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052273.html. They are aligining with the USA so they can be seen as the good guys.

That leads to an interesting point that hasn’t been raised.

If it is apparent your march or banner is to support Hamas then aren’t you supposed to get arrested for supporting a terrorist organisation. Bush’s labelling of Hamas as terrorists today should send a signal to Brown that a pro-Hamas march is a march in support of terrorism.

AS for grozny, i’m sure you were all over those russian web sites giving them a real piece of your mind. :))

Of course it’s safe to assume not only that all who will be protesting tomorrow are antisemitic but also that they all support Hamas.

It must be ‘nice’ to live in a world where everything is so clear cut.

I wonder just how many anti-Semitic creeps it would take participating in the march before people like Sonny decided it was too many?

Vildechaye this isn’t an Israeli website.

And on the refugee camp I was being a little cheeky. What are your thoughts on Sabra-Shatila? Was that another honourable defence of freedom?

Get a load of Maven, he himself decides he is right and there isnothing more to say. What an embarrassment to other Israel supporters.

Last point about Israeli website made because of Vildechaye’s analogy with Russian ones in the Grozny case, before anyone says anything ;-)

the north of Lebanon. Didn’t hear about it; not surprised, your “israel” radar probably missed it. My, was that Palestinian poet ever right!!

Nope, I don’t know what you mean. Could be a typo. Did you mean “Lebanese laughter” it almost sounds the same as you typed if you say it quickly. Then I’m stuck too can’t think of any “slaughter” or “laughter”. I’ll just throw in a “He He”! for the hell of it.

It is not that anyone is assuming “not only that all who will be protesting tomorrow are antisemitic but also that they all support Hamas”, it is that those who are adamant they are not antisemites or Hamas supporters should do well to look around at these protests and question why there are so many antisemites and Hamas supporters amongst them. If every time I went to a ‘peace’ protest I found myself surrounded by say, neo-nazis, I might take a step back and think.

<iGet a load of Maven, he himself decides he is right and there isnothing more to say. What an embarrassment to other Israel supporters.

I note you never took my statement apart.

Maven, may I be the first to say that I hope your commenting career is long and prolific!

re: sabra and chatila: you are putting words in my mouth about freedom, etc. sabra and chatila was a massacre. It was perpetrated by Lebanese Christians (phalangists), who the Israelis allowed into the camps. An Israeli public inquiry determined that Israel bore indirect responsibility.

I await a Syrian public enquiry on the massacre of 10,000 Arabs in Hama in the same year. Or a general Arab public inquiry into the forced expulsion (ie. ethnic cleansing) of 800,000 Jews from Arabic countries.

And finally, it isn’t being “cheeky” to erroneously think I meant sabra-chatila when I meant the Leb massacre of hundreds of Palestinians last year. It’s ignorant.

Maven: your statement is irrelevant. The comment was about your unearned hubris. And it stands.

only issuing a warning to be careful who you’re marching with, as there seem to be a lot of anti-jewish racists mixed in the crowd.

There probably will be. But I have no doubt some people will use pictures of those nutcases to make out that everyone who went to that march was singing from the same hymn sheet.

For gods sake you lot.
Just because Charles Kennedy appeared on the same platform as George Galloway in the anti Iraq war demo does not mean he was grovelling around the Baathist regime.
Whatever anyones disagreements with Voltaires Priest and Sunny I don’t think anyone is entitled to think they are in league with anti semites.

never said they were.

Amazing to read supporters of Israel’s ethnic cleansing and barbarism attempting to take the moral high ground on this discussion list.

Just remember, as you get your jollies at news reports of Palestinian children being slaughtered by the brave warriors of the IDF, whose creed is the purity of arms, that tomorrow all over the UK and across the world people will be out in their thousands offering solidarity with the victims of Israel’s continued crimes against humanity.

How many demos are taking place in support of those crimes tomorrow, do you think? And what about you, my little clique of Zionist internet warriors? Do you have the balls to take your message out on the streets to the people?

My guess is that tomorrow you’ll be exactly where you always are: seated in front of your computers tap-tapping away as the bombs continue to fall on a people whose only crime is that they continue to exist.

I come down on the side that the Israeli action is a necessary evil. However, it’s fucking difficult when one has a visceral reaction to the death of Palestinian children. I can absolutely understand that many people just want the Israeli action to stop. I think that they’re mistaken that’s all.

Notice that VP chose NOT to respond to me noticing that he had rejected only the weakest reason for attacking Hamas and ignored the others, since obviously he has no response and was being dishonest in bringing up only the weakest 3rd of the argument.

An honest person argues against the meat of his opponents position rather than just taking pot shots at half a sentence out of context.

These demos are very important to the people that go on them; they are good for relieving the personal trauma of helplessly watching the results of war in the media and on the web. But they are completely irrelevant - they rarely have any influence on policy makers even in the countries where they are held.

Free Palestine: “whose creed is the purity of arms”

Uhm they are an army that carries out the orders of the legitimate, elected government of a functioning liberal democracy. They represent the will of the people who voted for them.

Only an ignoramus would be talking about their “creed”

And that ignoramus is you, unfortunately.

I can absolutely understand that many people just want the Israeli action to stop. I think that they’re mistaken that’s all.

Well of course. It’s not going to achieve anything but kill a lot of Palestinians unnecessarily and prolong the conflict. In reality we all know that, but these things must play out.

In the UK, in a way there is less outrage about this attack than there was during the Lebanon war, at least amongst the political establishment. I think this is because a lot of people wanted to exploit the last one to undermine Blair and because people understood that if the pro-western Lebanese government was overthrown it would have been a disaster for the shape of the whole region. In this case, however, it’s really just the pointless bombing that’s winding people up, not the geopolitical and party politics element, therefore there doesn’t seem to be the same political urgency surrounding it.

Mike, I think your judgment of the likely outcome is completely incompetent, but you are entitled to have opinions about things you have no competent understanding of. We all have that right.

Somehow I doubt that Sunny will challenge the racist, exterminationist elements at the march tomorrow, because to do so would require both bravery and independence…two things Sunny has never demonstrated, despite what he thinks of himself.

Of course he won’t. His own website is filled with bilious anti-semitic bile, from both commenters and posters. He is a despicable race-obsessed jew-hating fucker. I wouldn’t cross the street to piss on him if he was on fire.

Thought this might be germane. Published @Creative-I.net 31/12 but also published @IkhwanWeb.com this evening.

Yvonne Ridley: PIRATES OF THE MEDITERRANEAN
NOT content with committing war crimes and human rights atrocities in full view of the world, Israel has now confirmed itself as a rogue state by launching into international piracy.

The SS Dignity

Dawn had not yet broken over the Mediterranean waters in which the SS Dignity was sailing when an Israeli naval gunboat appeared from the inky black and rammed the aid-bearing ship. The act of aggression on a peace mission was launched in international waters 90 miles off Gaza, without any warning to the captain of the Dignity or the crew.

Israel claimed the incident was an accident and that its naval officers had made numerous attempts to communicate with the Dignity. It was an accident that was to repeat itself three times.

Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor told one press agency that the naval vessel tried to contact the aid boat by radio for identification and to inform it that it could not enter Gaza. “After the boat did not answer the radio, it sharply veered and the two vessels collided, causing only light damage,” Palmor said.

I wonder how many traffic cops around the world have heard that line from a drunken or reckless driver in the wake of a crash.

The Israeli spokesman then went on to accuse the international activists of “seeking provocation more than ever.” Isn’t it amazing how Yigal and Co suddenly go belly up and adopt a victim mentality? I wonder how he will react to the news that onboard the ship, among the cargo of much-needed medical supplies and humanitarian aid were TV crew s from CNN and Al Jazeera as well as other media. For goodness sake, the Dignity was on a peace mission, armed with nothing more than humanitarian aid - hardly a match for the tooled up, hi-tech Israeli Navy and its deadly arsenal.

Sorry to be so direct, but Palmor is a purveyor of deceit, a liar - and a very unconvincing one at that. You see all sea-faring people know that there is a certain radio channel and frequency which remains open 24 hours a day. I know myself, because the Israeli Navy used that exact same frequency on one of the two Free Gaza boats as they set sail back in August 2008 to break the siege of Gaza by sea. That emergency frequency carried messages of threats and intimidation as clear as a bell.

Radio communications were used without any difficulty on the Israeli Navy several times by human rights activists from the Free Gaza Movement warning the gunboats to back off when they fired at Gazan fishermen. The westerners were on the tiny fishing ships to stop the naval bully boys terrorizing the unarmed fishermen.

And by the way, what the hell is Israel up to by banning or trying to prevent boats from entering waters not in its territory? This is the Mediterranean. Just when did Israel assume complete authority of the Med?

It is also worth pointing out that Dignity was clearly flying the flag of Gibraltar, and was piloted by an English captain with a passenger list including revered [tee hee] politician Cynthia McKinney from the US. The Israeli Government Press Office director was faxed the entire passenger list and press release shortly after Dignity set sail. Cynthia is a former Congresswoman from Georgia, and the 2008 Green Party US presidential candidate. She was traveling to Gaza to assess the ongoing conflict.

I know her and I can tell you she is one sassy lady. If the Israel Navy thinks this little incident is going to sink without trace then they truly are in for one rude awakening.

After reaching port safely in Lebanon, where thousands greeted the Dignity, Cynthia said: “Israeli patrol boats…tracked us for about 30 minutes…and then all of a sudden they rammed us approximately three times, twice in the front and once in the side…the Israelis indicated that [they felt] we were involved in terrorist activities.”

She was joined by another woman of substance, Dr. Elena Theoharous, MP who is a surgeon and a Member of the Cypriot Parliament. She was going to Gaza to assess the ongoing conflict, assist with humanitarian relief efforts, and volunteer in hospitals.

Also on board is another good friend of mine, Caoimhe Butterly, an organizer with the Free Gaza Movement. She said: “The gunboats gave us no warning. They came up out of the darkness firing flares and flashing huge floodlights into our faces. We were so shocked that at first we didn’t react. We knew we were well within international waters and supposedly safe from attack. They rammed us three times, hitting the side of the boat hard. We began taking on water and, for a few minutes, we all feared for our lives. After they rammed us, they started screaming at us as we were frantically getting the lifeboats ready and putting on our life jackets. They kept yelling that if we didn’t turn back they would shoot us.”

Furthermore, the attack was filmed by the journalists, and crew and passengers and no doubt we will see the full extent of that footage and the damage caused by Israel.

Of course Israel is always using the “Oops sorry it was an accident” routine. That’s the excuse the Zionist State used when it hit the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 with a flurry of bombs, murdering 34 American servicemen in cold blood. In the 40 year s since, those with the blood of those shipmates on their hands have gotten away with murder.

But try as they might to rewrite what happened onboard the Dignity and the Liberty, there are some memories which will not die. And what Israel has done to Gaza in the last few days will become an epitaph for the Zionist State. Israel’s deplorable attack on the unarmed Dignity is a violation of both international maritime law and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, which states, “the high seas should be reserved for peaceful purposes.”

Delivering doctors and urgently needed medical supplies to civilians is just such a “peaceful purpose.” Deliberately ramming a mercy ship and endangering its passengers is an act of terrorism and piracy.

As I write this a funeral is being planned for five Palestinian sisters who were slaughtered in their sleep when an airstrike hit the next-door mosque in .Gaza. One of the walls collapsed on to their small asbestos-roofed home and they were all killed in their beds in the densley populated Jabalya refugee camp. The eldest sister, Tahrir Balousha was 17 years old, the youngest, Jawaher, just four.
Some hours earlier Israel’s Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told al Jazeera: “”Hamas seeks to kill children; it fires at kindergartens, schools, civilians – because this corresponds with its extremist ideology. Our values are completely different,” she said.
Her outrageous claim went unchallenged, like so many statements coming out of Tel Aviv do these days. In a way, Ms Livni is right - Israel’s values are different. Hamas has killed no one’s children but the Israeli cabinet members who have spent the last six months planning the Gaza massacre, have sent out their military on assaults which have killed children. The air and sea attacks, shells and missiles have killed lots of Palestinian children.

While today’s continued military slaughter - and now piracy - underlines the fact that leaders in the international community seem unwilling or unable to halt the Zionist War Machine, there are international lawyers who think otherwise.

And that is why one by one, those responsible will one day be charged with war crimes … the evidence is stacking up - Nuremberg would be quite a fitting arena to try the guilty but London, Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam or Madrid will do.
The Israelis might not acknowledge their guilt publicly, but Brigadier-General Aviv Kochavi has canceled a study sabbatical in London for fear of being indicted for “war crimes” and former IDF Southern Commander Doron Almog clung on to his passenger seat when someone from the israeli Embassy advised him not to put one foot on the ground at London’s Heathrow Airport after a suit had been filed against him for “war crimes” during his stint as head of the IDF Gaza division from 1993-95 and head of the IDF Southern Command starting in 2000. IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon and former Shin Bent director Avi Dichter are two others who are advised not to leave outside Israel.

I understand fresh writs are being prepared for the next generation of Israeli war criminals and that includes all those involved in the Gaza massacres … which could be anyone from a lowly reservist who has just been called up right through to the top ranks and beyond.

Like the Nazi and war crime hunters of the past, we must never forgive, never forget and never submit to the demands of morally bankrupt states and politicians.

* Yvonne Ridley and film-maker Aki Nawaz sailed to Gaza with the FGM on the first mission to break the siege. A documentary about the trip will be broadcast on Press TV in 2009. Yvonne is a co-founder of the newly-launched SGS - Stop Gaza Slaughter coalition.

Aki Nawaz, hey? I wonder who he is?

tad redundant, “bilous” “bile”.

Free Palestine

How many demos are taking place in support of those crimes tomorrow, do you think? And what about you, my little clique of Zionist internet warriors? Do you have the balls to take your message out on the streets to the people?

As noted (by myself) above, there will be no pro-israel demonstrations tomorrow because israel’s core supporters will be in synagogue and will be unable to carry placards or even walk the required distance to a city centre because it IS THE JEWISH SABBATH!

It’s pretty cowardly to always organise anti-israel marches on the one day of the week that you know there will be no opposition marches (which I’m sure you’ll understand as: nobody supports israel).

Israel is not commiting crimes, even Human Rights Watch is saying in not so many words, that almost every target israel has hit is legitimate whilst lambasting Hamas at every opportunity and noting that its rockets are definitively illegal.

Josh, yes, we all do have that right. You utilised that right during the Lebanon conflict when people like yourself and the Israeli PM claimed Israel was going to “eliminate” Hezbollah.

You had ever right to believe that, however incompetent you were.

“It’s pretty cowardly to always organise anti-israel marches on the one day of the week that you know there will be no opposition marches .”

Surely you aren’t really that stupid?

I’ve spoken with some Arab friends (all of whom are from the Gulf) and they are generally in line with the view that Hamas started this post-ceasefire conflict and should take responsibility for the consequences. However, they are afraid that if they speak their views, they will be depicted as traitors. There is a lot of self-censorship in the Arab world in the face of Islamism. It’s strange as I am sure the majority of Kuwaitis, Emiratis and even Saudis distrust Hamas due to its ties to Tehran and are more inclined to Fatah.

Are there any pro-Israel marches planned in London? If not, then why not?

And on the refugee camp I was being a little cheeky. What are your thoughts on Sabra-Shatila? Was that another honourable defence of freedom?

VP, in Israel there was a huge demonstration– hundreds of thousands out of a population of about 5 million at the time– demanding accountability for the Sabra-Shatila massacre. The fact that the demonstrations in Israel against the current operation are by comparison tiny tells you something about the difference between the two.

Gene people almost always dismiss the “source” if they don’t think the “source” is ideologically akin to their own beliefs.
These are the type of people who will be on tomorrows march example 1)
‘Their delight in all they saw and were told,and the expression they gave to this delight,constitute unquestionably one of the wonders of our age. There were earnest advocates of the humane killing of cattle who looked up at the massive headquarters of the OGPU with tears of gratitude in their eyes, earnest advocates of proportional representation who eagerly assented when the necessity for a Dictatorship of the Proletariat was explained to them, earnest clergymen who reverently turned the pages of atheistic literature, earnest pacifists who watched delightedly tanks rattle across Red Square and bombing planes darken the sky, earnest town-planning specialists who stood outside overcrowded ramshackle tenements and muttered: ‘ if only we had something like this in England’. The almost unbelievable credulity of these mostly university educated tourists astonished even Soviet officials used to handling foreign visitors… Malcolm Muggeridge , moscow, 1930’s
example 2)
‘They are wildly enthusiastic over all they see but not always logical;they were enthusiastic before they came and their visit only doubly convinces them. A schoolteacher from Brooklyn was on a tour of one of the newspaper plants. She saw a machine which did wonders with the paper that was fed to it. ‘Really, that is remarkable’ she commented. ‘Such an amazing invention could be produced only in a country like yours, where labour is free, unexploited and working for one end. I shall write a book about what i have seen.’ She was a trifle embarrassed when she walked to the rear and saw the sign, Made in Brooklyn,NY…. William C White ,The American correspondent in Moscow.
Now tell me “oh men of the left” do you think that those observations were merely Imperialist, Zionist, USA lies or is it possible there is a kernel of truth to them. ? Or maybe you will dismiss the observers as simply fools who just didn’t understand? When the “March” descends into rabid anti-israel hatred will you righteous “men of the left” stand up for your “self image” as the defenders of the common people or will you shout in one united voice ” We are all Hamas now”? well will you??

I’ve spoken with some Arab friends (all of whom are from the Gulf) and they are generally in line with the view that Hamas started this post-ceasefire conflict and should take responsibility for the consequences.

I suspect lots of people reject Hamas’ methods and generally oppose them as a organisation, but be careful not to believe your own propaganda about some ground swell of support for Israeli bombing. These whispers are often put around at these times - “more than you’d think” number of Arabs were supposed to be in favour of the Iraq war and bombing Hezbollah too, and no doubt this did represent some sentiment, but it’s always over egged. To believe Hamas has played into Israel’s hands isn’t the same thing as supporting Israel in the war.

In general this conflict is terrifying the fuck out of most Arabs, who are now watching Palestinian children being blown to bits on their news every night, totally uncensored. This stuff is also viral across the internet, reaching every Islamist in the world. It’s an absolute PR catastrophe for Israel in the Arab world and everywhere outside of the US, and will be for every day it continues.

It definitely won’t be antisemitic at the rally, there sure won’t be anyone chanting “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea!”, there won’t be any “Death to Juice!” or “Chews Go Home” signs, or any calls for Israelis to go to gas ovens, no-one will offend Jews by making Holocaust references.

Should there be any problems (which there won’t) I’m sure that Annie Lennox, defender of the defenceless, will speak out against racism.

Inspired by her example, the ‘moderate’ protestors will definitely be telling the Hamas-sympathisers that racism is what got us into this mess in the first place, and that Jew-baiting is only gonna make peace in the Middle East harder to reach. Awwww.

Just a question then: if all these organisation supporting the Palestinians are not suitable/antisemitic etc., are there any organisations supporting the Palestinians that folk can support with a clear conscience?

You’ll note the word ‘resistance’. In Arabic, the most common word for resistance is مقاومة (muqāwamah). You won’t be surprised to know that the full name for Hamas, an Arabic ‘acronym’, is حركة المقاومة الاسلامية (Ḥarakat ul-Muqāwamat il -Islāmiyyah) or the Islamic Resistance Movement. Coincidence?

No not really. They are probably one of numerous MB fronts.

The Muslim Brotherhood from its inception sought like all “Secret Islamic Brotherhoods” to hide/signify its actions/ultimate aims from all but its followers and supporters all secret signs/symbols/words that have a deeper meaning …. “resistance” has a deeper and more significant meaning to any MB member or supporter - whether be he Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Palestinian Hamas or a British MAB … much of the symbolism is rooted in the myths surrounding Muhhamad’s early covert armed struggles to establish Islam in a Mecca during the period of the flight to Medina (Hijra).

The whole MB movement is full of secret initiations, symbolic gestures, and words.

So you have as an example

(1) Zawahiri’s hand gesture with outstreached thumb & finger …. a known MB gesture … (Zawahiri was a leader of Egypts Islamic Jihad (Muslim Brotherhoods armed faction) before shacking up with Osama Bin Laden).

http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=zawahiri%20thumb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

(2) Or Alistair Crooke’s (wink & a nod) tagline to his pro-Muslim Brotherhood website

Conflicts Forum: Listening to political Islam, recognising resistance

http://conflictsforum.org/

There are numerous other signs & words.

Its ironic that the Muslim Brotherhood sees the evil hand of the “International Jewish Conspiracy” & “Freemasonary” everywhere yet is itself an international conspiritorial movement.

or for that matter

Just a question then: if all these organisation supporting the Palestinians are not suitable/antisemitic etc., are there any organisations supporting the Palestinians that folk can support with a clear conscience?

You’ll just have to shop around, Benj, until you find one which agrees with you that Israel is legally and morally justified in responding with force to Hamas’ rocket barrages.

I hate the demonisation of any nation or people, whether of Arabs or Israelis. What makes this situation even more lamentable is the fact that Muslims and Jews have more in common with each other than they do anyone else. Logically, there should not be war between these people. Similar diet, similar culture, similar language, same origins. Indeed, in the face of the European Christian Crusades, they were on the same side. Zionism is not anti-Arab, it is about creating a homeland for the brothers of Arabs and Muslims. Unfortunately, there are many Zionists who have become anti-Arab, anti-Muslim bigots because of this conflict.

Shmuel:

That’s about as interesting as Quakerism. I mean, the equivalence making between the defensive army of a democratic state and an explicitly antisemitic fascist militia is annoying only so far as the author thinks it’s somehow “edgy.”

Somehow I doubt that Sunny will challenge the racist, exterminationist elements at the march tomorrow, because to do so would require both bravery and independence…two things Sunny has never demonstrated, despite what he thinks of himself.

This.

No sensible person is calling him antisemitic, but Sunny is hardly doing himself any favours: his site still has a post up claiming what’s going on in Gaza amounts to a “holocaust”. About as “fair and balanced” as the Fox News he loves to hate (despite working for Sky…).

His “No to Hamas, no to the IDF” shows the kind of moral equivalence I thought went out of the window after Bunting and co took several broadsides for the team. Apparently not.

Dan:

Are there any pro-Israel marches planned in London? If not, then why not?

Not an answer to your question but I spotted this from a year or so ago, when the Lebanese army was shelling the Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp:

I’m looking forward to the march this weekend.

Organisers are expecting as many as 500,000 people to protest against the “disproportionate” response of Lebanon to attacks by Islamist terrorists.

Angry demonstrators wearing “We are all Fatah-al-Islam Now” T- shirts will be addressed by leading British politicians, including Tony Benn and George Galloway, who has compared the Lebanese government to Nazi Germany.

OK, so there is no demo. I made it up. But when Israel responded with military force to unprovoked attacks from Hezbollah, which was also hiding out among civilians, the opprobrium of the world was heaped upon its head.

So when another bunch of Islamist lunatics causes the death of innocent civilians in the Middle East and a legitimate government fights back, why does the British Left come over all Three Wise Monkeys?

Guess the source. It’s probably the only thing he’s ever written I’ve agreed with… I would also be interested to read whether Sunny went on an organised march in protest at this as well, or whether he saves his political posturing for moments when he might get his goateed mug on camera next to Annie Lennox or some other has-been.

the whole ‘apes and pigs’ thing needs to end

The “pigs” thing really needs to end:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1048562.html

Josh, yes, we all do have that right. You utilised that right during the Lebanon conflict when people like yourself and the Israeli PM claimed Israel was going to “eliminate” Hezbollah.

I’m sure my knowledge of Hez is much deeper than you think and my position on that war more nuanced than you assume since I had been reading all of Michael Totten’s dispatches from Lebanon and his writing on Lebanon, and reading a large number of English language Lebanese blogs and I had argued with and watched other people argue with an English speaking member of Hezbollah as well as with a Lebanese Hezbollah supporter…

I’ve heard interviews with people from a Christian village that was held hostage and used as human shields by Hezbollah.

In the end, I do think it was necessary to attack Hezbollah but that it was badly enough done that the odds of it happening again are fairly high. Lebanon is a tragedy.

By the way, my conclusion from getting to know Hezbollah up close and personal is that it is every bit as bad as its harshest critics say, and it (with help from Syria and Iran) has scuttled democracy entirely in South Lebanon and ever more so in Lebanon in general.

Really there can not be peace until the terrorist millitias are disarmed. But no one is willing to fight a region wide war to do that. It wouldn’t even be a civil war with Syria and Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons and pulling their strings. And some large proportion Shiites in Lebanon do lack the civil concepts to see that democracy and freedom are preferable to having an islamist millitia terrorizing the country and your neighbors in your name. Most Lebanese don’t realize that Israel is capable of peace anyway; they DO fail to understand that it is the attacks from Lebanese soil that have provoked Israel each time. Self reflection is entirely missing - and I can think of some horrible horrible cases that would shed light on the amazing depth of genocidal hatred for Jews in Lebanese society, but I’m going to hold back on that for once.

how disrespectful is that HB of Islam:

He compares graffiti on the wall of a mosque to the words of the Qu’ran, all to score yet another little point against the beastly zionists.

Have more respect for Islam than to compare its holiest book to graffiti.

Now if you’d found ‘pigs’ in the Torah or Tanach, maybe your analogy would fly. As it is, it just reveals how desperate you are to score your little anti-semitic points. what a little racist pr*ck

simple -

Hamas should not be launching missile attacks and the IDF should not be about to launch a house by house campaign on a largely civillian population who want nothing more at this time than a loaf of bread.

The Israelis should not be operating apartheid and neother should Arab countries.

and the world would be a much better place today if no-one in the Torah had begat anyone and no one in the bible had begat anyone and no one in the Quran had begat anyone.

The world continues to turn and all the violence will continue regardless of who marches under what banner next which to whichever celebrity said what or begat whom.

The world turns.

we are where we are, a Jewish state in a sea of Muslim ones, religion and religion. ONe religion fighting tooth and nail to stay in existence as a country and one religion fighting to establish it’s own religionas a country.

The world turns.

Little Israeli children will die and little palestinian children will die. the world turns.

people will march, we will all watch the clock until Jan 20th, people will die, the world will turn.

welcome to 2009 - how was it for you?

Sunny’s “No to Hamas, no to the IDF” placard idea reminded me of this 2006 demonstration

Things started at a July 18 demonstration in Montreal, when a small group of young Lebanese showed up with a sign that read “Peace for Lebanon and Israel”. They were shouted at and shoved around and driven off. Their sign was torn up. The event then proceeded, with people carrying placards that bore the flag of the fascist organization Hezbollah and pictures of Hezbollah’s rabidly anti-Semitic leader, Hassan Nasrallah.

With the caveat that I think a placard reading “Peace for Lebanon and Israel” or “Peace for Palestinians and Israelis” is better than a placard reading “No to Hizballah, no to IDF” or “No to Hamas, no to IDF”

(incorrect blog link in my original post immediately above, he’s a lovely guy, direct your hate traffic to me and hugs to him)

Have you guys spotted how neatly these strikes on Gaza have cleaved left/right opinion in Britain?

Hell, even Aaronovitch has said he thinks they’re horribly counterproductive (although with a load of old shite about the opinions of putative, unnamed leftists.)

Who exactly do you guys think is directing these military operations, Mother Teresa? It’s wingnuts, boys, wingnuts - wingnuts like the ones you have infesting your comments boxes, wingnuts like the ones that oversaw the invasion and occupation of Iraq, wingnuts like the ones that made such an utter cock and balls out of the bombing and invasion of Lebanon two years ago.

Take a step back and a deep breath, this isn’t hard to see. I don’t know when the Israeli establishment got annexed by the looniest, most belligerent faction in its politics, but this is indefensible stuff. Even for you lot, there must be a line you won’t cross.

I know what you did in 2003 and 2006, but really, don’t shit on the protestors this time. Stop and think whether they might be right, regardless of whatever horrible tits might show up to march with them.

Flying Rodent, you’re making no sense whatsoever. Best not to come on the computer when your tipsy. I’ve learnt this lesson the hard way too many times.

My respect for Mike just jumped up 20 notches.

I’ve hated Rodent ever since he dared to claim Rocket J. Squirrel’s species. As if he rates!

Ironic that this is about Rockets though.

http://www.guba.com/watch/2000804935

Could someone please explain to me precisely what relevance Annie Lennox and Bianca Jagger have to what is going on in Gaza at the present moment ? The fomer was apparently once married to an Israeli, which may or may not give her views some credibility, but the latter seems recently to have been more preoccupied with the reintroduction of the Latin Mass alongside such luminaries as Lord Alton of Liverpool, Prince Rupert zu Löwenstein and Sir Rocco Forte. Who are these people, for heaven’s sake, and why should their views on anything matter?

“Sweet dreams are made of these” and “Sympathy for the Devil”?

Blimey Josh, you still here? I guess it really is true that bile is better than sleep…

VP how long are you going to ignore my quesition? I you don’t agree that Israelis have a duty to defend their freedoms, what excuse do you have for ignoring their duty to defend their lives and their children’s lives?

Typos:

VP how long are you going to ignore my question? If you don’t agree that Israelis have a duty to defend their freedoms, what excuse do you have for ignoring their duty to defend their lives and their children’s lives?

Well I guess I won’t be seeing too many of my fellow HP posters there this afternoon. If you are worried about protesting in London, you could always find a kosher one in Israel organised through the Peace Bloc (Gush Shalom): though no doubt even that one will be condemned by some shmendriks and paskudnyaks here as being full of neo-nazis/Jew haters etc.

Gush Shalom in Action
Tel Aviv demonstration, Saturday, January 3 - Stop the Killing! No to the Siege!
CEASE FIRE NOW!
“The War Belongs to Olmert – The Victims Belong to Us!”
Thursday 01/01/09

The killing in Gaza continues. Hundreds have been killed, thousands injured, air-strikes have caused utter devastation and entire families are left homeless.
Civilians in the south of Israel are being held captive by a government which lies to them and abuses them. Destruction and death in Gaza will not ensure their future, but rather lead to more violence and killings.
Join us in protest this coming Saturday, 3.1.2009, in Tel aviv. Together we will call out:
Stop the Killing! No to the Siege! Yes to life for both peoples!
In these dark days, let us stick to our message:
Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies!
Our demand: A full truce and the lifting of the siege on Gaza NOW!
We meet at the corner of Frishman St. and Khen Boulevard at 18:30

Please note: For the past week mass arrests have been carried out amongst Palestinian citizens of Israel who are exercising their democratic right to protest. On Saturday, at 13:00, before the Tel Aviv demonstration, a mass protest rally will be held in Sakhnin by the High Committee of Arab Israelis against the killing in Gaza. Please make an effort to join – your presence is of the essence!
Already on Friday, Jan. 2, at 14.00, there will be a Women Against the War demo in Haifa, at the corner of HaGefen and Al Jabel (Hatzionut)
For donations, crucial for our demonstration, please send checks made out to “Matte Hacoalitsia” at PO box 1335, Kfar Saba 44113..

****************
Gene mentioned earlier that protests in Israel have been relatively small compared with Lebanon in 1982. The protests started small in Israel in 82 and it took a couple of months and the horrific massacres of Sabra and Shatila to waken the mass conscience in Israel. My own memory of 82 was sitting in shul (United Synagogue) on Yom Kippur listening to a sermon by a lubavitch rabbi (now a leading figure in a right wing Zionist organisation in the UK) in which he referred to the massacre by saying “We’ve had 2000 years of persecution, we should worry about a few hundred Palestinians who will grow up to be terrorists.” Pretty sick I think you will agree. I’ve not been back to synagogue since except for family barmitzvahs an weddings.

If Israel is foolish enough to send young troops to their deaths in a ground invasion, I’m sure the protests within Israel will grow considerably.

Interesting point in the Gush Shalom material about the mass arrests of Israeli Arabs seeking to protest. Haven’t seen coverage of that in the supposedly anti-Israel media here.

I was posed to comment and found that David had already responded, however if you are on the demonstration you could try marching with the Jewish Socialist Group to which he belongs.

Or you could meet up with Green Left.

have blogged about all of this here http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/2009/01/you-should-have-died-in-auschwitz.html

There are some good post on the blog o sphere outlining peace movement activity in Israel by the way.

It’s pretty cowardly to always organise anti-israel marches on the one day of the week that you know there will be no opposition marches (which I’m sure you’ll understand as: nobody supports israel).

I would hazard a guess that they organized it for a Saturday as that’s when most people can get there. Every major demo I can remember has been on a Saturday.

Cross posting, but this is important:

Here it is! The definitive guide to “how to stop the rockets” from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Scroll down to the graph entitled “Monthly Distribution of Rocket Hits”. Now, can we remember what was happening between June and November?

Case closed. That puts a lie to the idea that the Israeli attack has anything to do with stopping rocket attacks. It is very clear how to stop them, and the Israeli Government know exactly how to do it - ceasefire!

Link:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Missile+fire+from+Gaza+on+Israeli+civilian+targets+Aug+2007.html

Oh, do stop calling Azzam Tamimi a “wannabe suicide bomber”. Just because he says he would love to do it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t blatantly prefers for younger men to go do it instead. (Or women and children as is now increasingly the case.)

Leave it to TheIrie to defend his position by linking to graphs which highlight the acts of terrorism by Hamas over the past year! Bravo!

This is a post by Jeffrey Goldberg on The Atlantic web site. It is about his interview with Nizar Rayyan. It explains the depth of the hatred Israel and ALL Jews everywhere are up against:

Nizar Rayyan of Hamas on God’s Hatred of Jews

02 Jan 2009 01:12 pm
Nizzar Rayyan, the Hamas leader who was killed, along with two of his wives and several of his children, in an Israeli bombing raid earlier this week, was one of the more bellicose Hamas leaders I have known. I saw him last in Gaza two years ago, at a mosque in the Jabalya Refugee Camp, where I spent quite a lot of time (my book Prisoners explains why).

He was one of the more Islamically-learned Hamas leaders I’ve met (Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was learned as well, I think, but he was very hard to understand; Abdel Aziz Rantisi, who was the least pleasant of all the Hamas leaders I’ve known, was not very learned at all). In particular, Rayyan was interested in the hadith, the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, with a special interest in hadith that painted Jews in a negative light. Rayyan and I discussed the writing of Ibn Taymiyya, the Muslim scholar who lived seven hundred years ago, and who is the intellectual forefather of Sunni radicalism today (it was Ibn Taymiyya who elevated jihad to a kind-of sixth pillar of Islam). Like Ibn Taymiyya, Rayyan was preoccupied with Muslim apostasy. He never quite said so, but I could sense that he thought of Abu Mazen and the other leaders of the Palestinian Authority as traitors not only to the cause of Palestine, but to Islam itself. “You cannot be loyal to Allah and to the CIA at the same time,” he said of his P.A. enemies.

There are things I didn’t know about Rayyan, such as that he had four wives - a fact that tells you something about the culture of Hamas - but I knew that he was sincere in his devotion to the cause of Israel’s annhilation. The question I wrestle with constantly is whether Hamas is truly, theologically implacable. That is to say, whether the organization can remain true to its understanding of Islamic law and God’s word and yet enter into a long-term non-aggression treaty with Israel. I tend to think not, though I’ve noticed over the years a certain plasticity of belief among some Hamas ideologues. Also, this is the Middle East, so anything is possible.

There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: “The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don’t need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel.” There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. “Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God.”

I asked him if he believed, as some Hamas theologians do (and certainly as many Hezbollah leaders do) that Jews are the “sons of pigs and apes.” He gave me an interesting answer that reflects a myopic reading of the Koran. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce. So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.”

What are our crimes? I asked Rayyan. “You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah,” he said. “Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God.”

Susan,
watch out from now on, TheIdiot using this quote whenever someone mentions Hamas and Pigs and Apes. He’s really that malign and untrustworthy.

gosh David T, your site is disgusting.

Disgusting how?

Because it gives an opportunity for individuals to vent their bigotry on the comments threads with impunity or moderation. Sunny’s site gets discredited because it gets comments of the “bilious anti-semitic bile” kind but you know marvin that they are addressed all the time. And yet here, it’s perfectly acceptable for comments threads to be overflowing with anti-muslim bigotry, and fuck all is done about it.

A link that is useful in any of these debates about Israel and Palestinian terrorism. The orginal Mandate for Palestine and a commentary http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm

And yet here, it’s perfectly acceptable for comments threads to be overflowing with anti-muslim bigotry, and fuck all is done about it.

Quoting the hate-filled words of a Hamas leader is not anti-Muslim bigotry.

I find many aspects of Islam repugnant and saying so is no more bigoted than those ( like you Sid) who never hesitate to bash Christianity.

Criticising Christianity is transgressive and emancipatory, whereas criticising Islam, because most muslims are brown, is bigotry.

For you, defining bigotry depends entirely on the skin colour of those being criticised, which is itself a form of bigotry.

Fuck you’re stupid.

Disgusting how?

No Preview Button, no “Date of Latest Comment” on the main Thread intro, no quick Home button at the bottom of the comments. Don’t like the times font, prefer something cleaner like Arial, needs buttons to surround text so as to add the HTML tags.

Apart from that its an outstanding website for comment and debate. Absolutely the Best in my opinion.

Not all of the people attending this march are anti-Semites. There, by the looks of it, are quite a few commies as well.

By the way, the Jews, uh, I mean Zionists - who control Western media - aren’t doing a very good job of censoring this demonstration. On Sky News - which is owned by News Corp. and is Fox News’ sister channel - they’ve been running a feature on it every 15 minutes today. They even showed the eighties comic Alexei Sayle making a fool of himself.

Mind you, they probably just want us to think that they don’t control the media. Nothing is ever an accident with these people. The Holocaust didn’t happen, but if it had’ve, you can understand why Hitler would want to turn these people into lampshades.

Nick ex South Afric) “sub genus… homo Jihadi.”

Oh haven’t you heard? There are no homos in Muslim countries.

And even if there are, they will be fully outed — by public hangings, dangling from cranes! Doncha know?

I find many aspects of Islam repugnant and saying so is no more bigoted than those ( like you Sid) who never hesitate to bash Christianity.

Oh I completely support the bashing of the supremacist ideologies of the clerical fascists of the Christian and Islamic faiths. And on that, I’m completely in agreement with David T.

Just back from viewing the last bit of the foolishness at Traf Sq. A few thousand there when I was, I would say - c5000 ? (very unscientific). The speeches were incomprehensible ranting as you might imagine and all the usual SWP and other sect stalls were on show. No Respect Renewal stuff on show that I saw - interesting ?

Also no explicit support for Hamas that I saw, again interesting perhaps. The only banner I saw that called for Hamas to stop as well as Israel was held by a one man group of guess who ?

Yes - you got it - Peter Tatchell :)

Also I saw no union support banners/placards. Again interesting perhaps.

I’ve got some photos including PT in action, will mail in.

A beautiful thing was observed on BBC and Fox News coverage of the protestors.

At about 6:15pm I watched BBC News 24 Live and while a reporter was speaking an ugly bespectacled Muslim woman dressed in some black headcovering thing insisted on invading the screens with “Allah Akhbar” and “Down Down Down with Bush”. Unable to continue with the broadcast they broke away.

I happened to switch to Fox to see what they were reporting on and amazingly they had their own reporter who was joined a few seconds later with Mrs Palestinian Spam doing the same thing.

However, she was broadcasting to the USA “Down with Bush” and “Allah Akhbar”. That doesn’t go down too well with American audiences.

Thanks Mr Palestinian Spam for so elegantly representing what these whack jobs are all about.

“In an appearance on BBC’s HARDTalk, Tamimi stated of suicide bombing attacks on Israel:

I would do it … If I have the opportunity I would do it … If I can go to Palestine and sacrifice myself I would do it.”

As did Ehud Barak when asked what he would do if he were a Palestinian

“Friends of al Aqsa is willing to publish material by a man who supports terrorist attacks against Israel and dreams of its destruction. It also likes to indulge in the rhetoric of ‘Zionism = Nazism’.”

Yes zionists never compare Palestinians to Nazis

“Would-be suicide bomber Tamimi turns up here as well, with an article that chastises Islamists for promoting The Protocols of Zion and for using racist language about ‘apes and pigs’ (he might like to get his comrades in Hamas to remove references to the Protocols from their founding document, and he might also like to inform - for example - Hamas’ female suicide bombers in waiting that the whole ‘apes and pigs’ thing needs to end). Tamimi’s article also expresses his hopes for the future:”

Riiight.. so Tamimi is being condemned for criticizing the protocols and the use of racist language. While zionists who promote “Eurabia” (including Mel Phillips who your site links to) are to be appluaded

Maven
“At about 6:15pm I watched BBC News 24 Live and while a reporter was speaking an ugly bespectacled Muslim woman dressed in some black headcovering thing ”

This is despicable hate filled language. Shame on HP for this post.
If someone had written this about a religious Jewish woman youd be screaming your heads off.

John P

“Criticising Christianity is transgressive and emancipatory, whereas criticising Islam, because most muslims are brown, is bigotry.

For you, defining bigotry depends entirely on the skin colour of those being criticised, which is itself a form of bigotry.”

So what about criticising Judaism?

RE: So what about criticizing Judaism?

What about it?

(those jews, always answering a question with a question… there’s some criticism for you)

Jews aren’t trying to spread Judaism, so (for the most part) none of them care whether their their religion is criticized, it’s not like it changes the number of converts.

Alexei Stale?! That was a laugh seeing his bloated bald face bleating on Rupert Murdoch’s channel! The last time he was funny Michael Jackson was still black and Margaret Thatcher was running the show. What happened to him? On Sky News he equated Israel with apartheid South Africa. Tell that to the 20% of Arab Israelis who are full citizens entitled to vote. I suppose if you’re a fat unsuccessful comedian overtaken by Eddie Izzard and dozens of funnier comedians all you have left is your ignorance and bile… He’s being reamed out by his fans on his blog http://www.alexeisayle.me/