Harry’s Place

George Galloway-related news, his employer, the Iranian state-controlled Press TV, is reporting that he was injured while protesting outside the Israeli embassy in London.

did he get caught under his own ego? and where is “As a Jew” would love some pix of him.

Press reports put the figure at about double MMN’s estimation. Sky say over 12,000.
AFP say 10,000 in London.
The Press Association quote police as saying at least 10,000.
The Telegraph say up to 12,000.

George has a bit of history when it comes to reporting assaults, being held hostage, burglaries etc.
They usually come to nothing.

in our dreams that George was injured, please let it be serious…..

From the Telegraph article I linked to above:
Organisers of the demonstration said they will make an official complaint to Scotland Yard after claiming that riot police charged protestors, injuring many of them.

He added that Mr Galloway was among a number of people who were escorted through police lines for their safety.

I hope Galloway wasn’t attacked by an SWP “Zionist” hit squad?

those sectarian hatreds last forever, and the SWP is a little bit more than annoyed at George over the Respect bust up :)

Maybe George received facial injuries from all that brown-nosing.

Whilst I would be rather amused if George had caught himself in the eye throwing his own shoe, if this is another case of the police being overly aggressive then this is yet more reason to be concerned about how the British police now treat legitimate protesters.

I doubt whether George is a particularly reliable witness.
Unless of course the Police who assaulted him were speaking in the same bizarre Edwardian fashion as another group of unidentified assailants who kciked him on the ankle.

“I felt one man kick me on one ankle and I was then kicked on the other ankle.” There was one guy I would describe as a ringleader who said: “I don’t like your radio talk, I don’t like your newspaper talk, I have a religious duty to knock you down.”

Shockingly this strange occurrence resulted in no charges.

I saw Galloway walking along Kensington High Street WEST of the Embassy, ie AFTER he went through the underpass to get to the Embassy. He was fine and walking fine and laughing with someone (probably his daughter, reading the post above).

It sounds like his comments about being “attacked by the police” were not exactly proportionate.

Now there’s a surprise … not.

Look at all those people attacking Peter Tatchell! Oh wait…

Yes, remarkably civil to him for a supposed bunch of homophobic anti-semites, weren’t they?

I was saddened to hear Galloway has been injured. I know he isn’t doing the radio programme tonight.

Bollocks! I’m left with the word ‘only’ and I can’t quite see where it goes in the first sentence.

VP - these Muzzzzlims are so evil and clever, they’re just waiting around the corner, in full knowledge that MMN was taking the pic. Afterwards, the beat Peter to a pulp.

These Muzzies are capable of anything, honestly. Can’t trust them. Josh says we should be thankful Israel hasn’t nuked them already.

Galloway was apparently attacked by the police in the Marble Arch underpass. Medialens reported in, and Lenin linked to it.

By the way, if MoreMediaNonsense estimates the crowd at 5,000 he’s unreliable. That is the police’s estimate, which is always too low. There was a massive sea of people - one of the largest marches I’ve ever been on. Sky News, BBC and Guardian say 12,000. I’d like to see an aerial photo of Trafalgar square.

Annie Lennox is a complete fraud. All the crap about ‘as a mother’ and the humanitarian touchy-feely bullsh’t. And the tearful eyes.

Why didn’t we hear her when Israelis were murdered by suicide bombers or even when Londoners were murdered by terrorists on the tube?

Annie Bollocks ………

The Irie

I was there too and you are exaggerating, it was no more than 7000.

Thanks Gene - just shows what you can do with your phone these days eh :)

Just to be clear as I said in posts earlier here I only arrived at c15:00 towards the end at Traf Sq, there may have been many more on the march who then went off shopping or whatever.

Irie.
Heres an aerial photograph of Trafalgar Square.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/images/2005/08/25/037_430×315.jpg

What do you think the odds are that this is George shouting “wolf” yet again.
Or do you believe that War on Want was plagued by a series of genuine break ins when Mr Galloway was in charge?

The photos on Lenin’s blog and the BBC give a better feel of the types of slogans that were prevalent.I didn’t see that banner above. I did see one saying MI5 did 7/7. These people are not representative at all. fringe lunatics who give people like MMN something to feel smug about.

TheIrie,

I’ll ask you directly, Have you ever publicly protested the fact that over the last few years Hamas has lobbed over 6000 missiles and mortars at Israel?

RE: BBC Link

Tim, I hope your not trying to pass that photo off as one of today’s demo? It clearly says it is from 2005 not 2009.

I took the BBC link as being taken during the War on Want.

Phil.
It was a joke.

Ah… so now in the absence of anything serious to report following yesterday’s dire warning, we’re reverting back to “oh yeah but George Galloway’s a cock”. Well that sure seals the deal, doesn’t it?

Hey TheIrie Gene didn’t put up my photo with the “End the Holocaust in Gaza” placard on it.

There were loads of those at the demo - you’ve admitted you saw them earlier (and you also agreed they were wrong - to be fair).

Sunny and VP - did you see that scummy stuff as well ? What do you think Jewish people think about that kind of s**t ?

Mar: No I haven’t. I’m not aware that there has been one organised. I do fully oppose the rockets though. Did you know that in 2008, over 1,200 rockets were fired? Did you know that Jan-Jun 2008, an average of 179 rockets were fired a month? Did you know that during the ceasefire, from June to November, 14 rockets were fired in 4 months, an average of just over 3 per month (0 in August). And why was that? There was a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, that’s why. You would have thought that someone should tell the Israeli Government this, since they want to stop the rockets, and are prepared to send their sons off to die to do so. Oh no, hold on, that data comes from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They know it. They know how to stop the rockets. They just don’t want to. There is no other rational conclusion that one can come to.

Looks like a pathetic turnout. Yanni could probably draw a bigger audience to one of his concerts.

These Muzzies are capable of anything, honestly.

The radicals most certainly are

You’re South Asian. Have you forgotten Mumbai already?

And your lame ‘disproportionate’ response to that tragedy was telling. Why weren’t demonstrations held to protest that?

As a Sikh you’ve absolutely no stake in the Israel/Palestine conflict, but yet loudly protest the legitimate and justifiable IDF incursions while remaining mum on conflicts, south asian conflicts, that doconcern you.

Retard.

“The third photo is of Peter Tatchell, who may have been the only participant with a sign mentioning Hamas’s role in the current conflict. It would be interesting to learn what kind of reactions he got from fellow demonstrators.”

He was surrounded by Islamofascistterrorists and stoned to death for being a sodomite/criticising Hamas/not having a beard

TheIrie,

I’ll ask you directly, Have you ever publicly protested the fact that over the last few years Hamas has lobbed over 6000 missiles and mortars at Israel?

He probably showed up at the demo with a sign reading “we are all Hamas” and, just in case, a note from his doctor saying that now would be an unhealthy time for him to go on a suicide mission.

VP - I refer you to the piece thats just gone up on Shiraz Socialist.

http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/

John P

“As a Sikh you’ve absolutely no stake in the Israel/Palestine conflict, ”

And what stake do you have in the I/P conflict? Are you Israeli? Palestinian? Jewish? Muslim?

Are you in fact Irshad Manji?

Your interest in the I/P conflict is because you hate Muslims and Muslims are involved . Same as an anti-semites interest in it

“And your lame ‘disproportionate’ response to that tragedy (Mumbai) was telling. Why weren’t demonstrations held to protest that?”

Against who precisely?

MMN - I said they were wrong, as in wild exagerations. I don’t think they are offensive. And to be fair, Gazans are being killed, right now. I don’t think the use of hyperbole and exageration in this context is terribly serious, when weighed against that. Most sane people don’t.

Incidentally, I expect the best thing that HP will eventually come up with on this demo is Galloways crappy little speech. It was by far the worst. He called for a military coup in Egypt, and compared Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, and the Israelis to the Nazis. MMN - I’m surprised you haven’t already mentioned it. Anyway, Galloway can be a fool. This is all small fry compared to what is actually happening in the world.

“No I haven’t. I’m not aware that there has been one organised”

Really. Why is that? Could it be because your side enjoys the fact that Israel gets attacked on a regular basis and never ever condemn acts of terrorism against it? Seems very onsided to me.

Do you have a link for your stats?

This one doesn’t support your claims.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/site/home/default.asp

Here you are Mar, its the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Missile+fire+from+Gaza+on+Israeli+civilian+targets+Aug+2007.html

… and Mar, you link contains exactly the same data, here, on page 6.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf

TheIrie - I think GG had finished by the time I arrived, but do tell us some more about his speech. Sounds interesting !

In general the sound was so bad and the speakers so inane I took in none of it. I think a woman (Lindsey German ?) was officiating, but it was impossible to see the speakers unless you were right at the front. Oh and someone from BabyShambles came on at the end would you believe it.

No doubt others will have picked up the really good bits from the stage…..

Are you in fact Irshad Manji?

No, I am Brigitte Bardot’s mother.

Against who precisely?

Against both the ideology ( Islam) and the individuals (Pakistani Jihadists) that were responsable for those attacks.

Your interest in the I/P conflict is because you hate Muslims and Muslims are involved

I’m quite ok with Muslims…having helped convert several to Christianity. It’s Islam ( an ideology of hate) and Mohammed ( a murderous, hate-filled tyrant) that I detest, having every right to do so.

You don’t know a lot about Islam or Islam’s history, do you?

John P

“As a Sikh you’ve absolutely no stake in the Israel/Palestine conflict,”

What the fuck kind of right do you think you have telling someone what they ought to be concerned with based on their ethnicity?

We should close this thread as I think ‘la mano de d1os’ may be coming. Personally, I’m shitting myself. He KNOWS people. We’re toast.

How tragic and how telling, that we never see such protests, and such strength of feeling by these protesters about any other conflict around the world. ( Well perhaps they might think of protesting if America is involved, but who knows know that their hero Obama is in office)

So TheIrie can’t travel 50 yards from his front door to support Iranians against the Mullahs but will travel fuck-knows of a distance to support Hamas.

Speaks volumes.

Yossi - the point was made at the demo, that the speakers on the stage, and many of the marchers are the very same people who years ago were marching against apartied in South Africa. Like apartied 20 years ago, Palestine is the moral issue of this generation, and people who care about humanity will stand up against these injustices, until they end. One day, they will end.

I was supporting the people of Gaza, Morgoth. The people you would like to ethnically cleanse.

I take very badly to seeing public places in cities in this country occupied by screaming supporters of Hamas and Hizbollah [both designated as terror groups of deadly threat to Britain.] These people are not there to protect the citizens of this country either here or abroad. If they ever get to finish off Israel the sacrificial lamb, then they’ll start on the main course - that means us.

It’s always a fun activity guessing how many Socialist Worker will claim on a demo but your just doing a mirror image of them if you think there were just 5,000 there.

We were in the front third of the march. And as it was assembling at Embankment and I wanted to give out the Jewish Socialists’ Group leaflet,(you can read it at: http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/#leaflet
but it was impossible at that point because of the volume of people crammed together seeking to join the march.

There were still marchers streaming into Trafalgar Square more than an hour after we reached there. The Jewish contingents marched together as a large bloc and leaflets from the JSG and from JFJFP were eagerly taken. Nice to see Jonathan Miller there marching near the JSG banner!

I would estimate at least 25,000 were marching - possibly more, but beyond the numbers game, this was clearly a very determined, purposeful and energetic march not made up of the usual leftist hacks, it was young and old, black and white (and Jewish) with a very positive atmosphere. The verbal slogans dominating the march were “free Palestine” and “end the siege” - with little mention of Hamas.

I saw Peter Tatchell - didn’t see him getting any hassle.

Hope the demos in Israel today were successful (there was one in Tel-Aviv and one I believe further north).

We should all be worried at what the next few days/weeks will bring, now that ground forces are being sent in, but the people who no doubt are most worried and fearful are the ordinary civilians of Gaza. I think it is inevitable that there will be revenge attacks on civilians in Israel and elsewhere. Many months afterwards there will be regrets and recriminations in Israel. But Bush is giving the green light now.

We’ve been here before.

John P

“Against both the ideology ( Islam) and the individuals (Pakistani Jihadists) that were responsable for those attacks.”

How and where would this protest manifest itself?

The killers killed a disproportinate number of Muslims, attacked a Muslim owned hotel named after one of the most famous buildings built by Muslims in the world and were refused a burial by local Mullahs. But you claim what they did was Islamic.

“I’m quite ok with Muslims…having helped convert several to Christianity.”

John knew it ! Always knew you were a Christian missionary!
Just something about you. The love you are full of, I think.

“You don’t know a lot about Islam or Islam’s history, do you?”

I admit it cannot hold a candle next to the tolerance of Christian history.

“Palestine is the moral issue of this generation, and people who care about humanity will stand up against these injustices, until they end. One day, they will end.”

No! Palestine is not the moral issue of this generation. It seems that China’s abuse of it’s own people not to mention and the Tibetans, or Mugabe’s abuse of his own people, or the millions of people killed in Congo, or the Genocide taking place in Darfur, or the cruelty in Burma would be far more appropriate candidates.

Rwanda could also have been a very good candidate in it’s time.

But then again none of these conflicts fit the world view of “west” vs “east” or the “evil rich” against the “noble poor” and lets not forget Jew against Non-Jew, so they don’t register on the moral radar of these humanitarians.

And let’s talk about Apartheid South Africa. Do the people protesting today, who protested against Apartheid, care about the Black population of South Africa? Do they care about their poverty, about their hardships in modern South Africa? My guess is not allot, after all it’s not about White Vs Black any more is it, so not quite as interesting.

Colin

“I take very badly to seeing public places in cities in this country occupied by screaming supporters of Hamas and Hizbollah [both designated as terror groups of deadly threat to Britain.] These people are not there to protect the citizens of this country either here or abroad. If they ever get to finish off Israel the sacrificial lamb, then they’ll start on the main course - that means us.”

Funny that the “screaming supporters” of Hamas and Hezbollah didnt kill the many non-Muslims including Jews present.

Probably waiting for orders from Teheran.

What the fuck kind of right do you think you have telling someone what they ought to be concerned with based on their ethnicity?

Sikhism is a religion and not an ethnicity. It is hypocritical of Mr Hundal to attend demonstrations denouncing Israeli defense actions, while at the same time saying little about the islamist terrorist agressions taking place in his home country, India.

His indignation is both misplaced AND suspect.

Django

“Come come Irie. We can speak honestly here, we know you well. 200,000 dead in Darfur, yet all your energy goes into the Gaza conflict. Just admit you are a Jew hater. I, for one, will admire you all the more.”

5,000,000 dead in Congo yet you focus on 4 dead in Israel and 200,000 dead in Darfur.

Just admit youre an Arab hater.

I was on the Glasgow part of the various marches against the Iraq war in 2003.

My reason for going was pretty straightforward, the attackers were Saudi and Egyptian, the instigators were based in Afghanistan and I felt that invading Iraq had more to do with the Bush administration picking an easy target that would degenerate into a lot of ‘our’ casualties for no real gain.

In Glasgow Green a woman (white, not Muslim) approached me and tried to make me take a Palestinian flag to wave. I refused. I was surrounded by a mob of people from the ‘Muslim Association of Britain’ and shown all manner of anti-Israeli propaganda. I simply ignored them but left the march before it got to the SECC.

The entire route I followed there was only one chant. ‘Free, free Palestine, Don’t attack Iraq’

That made me realise that there was an agenda being pursued that was not pro peace, but anti Western and especially anti-Israel / Jewish.

I wonder how many of those protestors would march on behalf of Israelis being bombed by Hamas?

Pointing to other problems in the world (problems that I am very concerned about, incidentally, and have campaigned against) is the last vestige of the scoudrel. Nothing Yossi or Django have said changes the fact that, as Howard Jacobson put it “Of the countless tragedies which have befallen humanity since that conference in Evian [1938], the confining of Palestinians to hellhole refugee camps ranks high.” They are suffering, and we - Israel, backed by the US and the UK to a lesser degree - are responsible.

No! Palestine is not the moral issue of this generation. It seems that China’s abuse of it’s own people not to mention and the Tibetans, or Mugabe’s abuse of his own people, or the millions of people killed in Congo, or the Genocide taking place in Darfur, or the cruelty in Burma would be far more appropriate candidates.

Exactly, and it’s something I’ve never been able to understand. How many 1000s have died from cholera epidemic in Zimbawe? You can’t even glean info about it on the web, let alone the MSM, so obviously no one cares.

It’s more important to bash Israel’s defense moves, The west and America than to highlight the plight of millions suffering and dying under ‘visible minority’ dictators.

“Pointing to other problems in the world (problems that I am very concerned about, incidentally, and have campaigned against) is the last vestige of the scoudrel.”

Quite the opposite, it is the way to spot the last vestiges of morality in the hearts of the protesters. Ignoring far worse situations that exist, in order to focus passion, and open hate, on Israel, is not a sign of moral excellence, but a symptom of moral degradation.

Since when does passing opinion on an Israeli foreign policy decision count as “jew hating”? I marched against the Iraq war but it doesn’t make me anti-american.

Irie:

Campaigned against my arse!

Yossi - we are not ignoring anything. We are acting against a crime. That there are other crimes doesn’t change that. And if you are to follow your logic, as pointed out above, rocket attacks on Israel should be of no concern, since the death toll is completely tiny. (This isn’t my view, any knuckledraggers out there, its the logic of Yossi’s argument).

“We are acting against a crime. That there are other crimes doesn’t change that.”

Right. So if I were a policeman who only fought particular crimes committed by blacks, at least I would be fighting crime, and could happily ignore all the non-blacks committing crimes.

“rocket attacks on Israel should be of no concern, since the death toll is completely tiny.”

Well yes in comparison to the problems of the word the rocket attacks do not merit all that much coverage or protest from around the world. Not that there has been any of course.

The rockets are a problem for Israel to deal with, and it is dealing with them.

By all means say nothing about the rockets, but then don’t say all that much about the military operation to stop them either, and put your focus on other humanitarian catastrophes.

I appreciate what you are saying IRE but when you see scenes like this: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/01/417063.html…it undermines the peaceful and justifiable nature of your protest.

I don’t think any excuse exists for a protest, whatever the cause, to degenerate into violence.

TheIrie, a crime:

A) When has Israel been found guilty? Sounds as if you’re risking defamation charges;

B) Why do you not act against similar ‘crimes’ such as the firing of rockets and mortars from Gaza? No, you were not asked if a protest against this been organizer. You were asked why *you* have not organized one.

Irie, Yossi nailed you, so give it up. Go to bed. You couldn’t really give a fuck about the Congo, Rwanda, Zimbabwe or Darfur. You only get that ’special’ feeling about Israel.

Go get a girlfriend, get some romance in your life. It’ll work, I promise.

Well no, Yossi, your principles are completely wrong. Crimes are crimes. You should do what you can to help the helpless and the victims. When you have some indirect role in the crime, as we in the West all do, the moral obligation is even stronger.

But this isn’t about principles. You support Israeli war crimes, and don’t like it when they are pointed out. Its very transparent.

John P

“Sikhism is a religion and not an ethnicity. It is hypocritical of Mr Hundal to attend demonstrations denouncing Israeli defense actions, while at the same time saying little about the islamist terrorist agressions taking place in his home country, India.

His indignation is both misplaced AND suspect.”

And your stating that Sunny a British Sikh’s home country is India is BNP racism at its finest.

So during the alleged cease fire, The Erie, Hamaistan still continued attacking Israel but not on such a large scale basis. Some cease fire. You seem to be omitting however the amount of missiles fired since November.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and the attacks increased 100 fold. So much for the occupation as being the reason.

Again, I will ask you, Why have you and your comrades never organized a march against Hamas and its’ indiscriminate shelling of a sovereign nation?

Where were you when the Seder Massacre started this off?

I am a long time lurker here and very much enjoy the debates and plan on posting more.

“I don’t think any excuse exists for a protest, whatever the cause, to degenerate into violence.” I disagree in principle. I think, for example, the violent resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto was justified.

Alec - I haven’t organised a protest in my life. And look, compared to what is happening in Gaza now, the rockets are very minor things. And, unlike anyone else here, I’ve pointed out how to stop them from being fired. So, take that as my contribution - more than you or anyone else has done!

I recall when Yossi arrived here he described himself as a non-Zionist Jew. Funny how constant baiting has made him choose sides.

TheIrie, please give a brief outline of which war-crimes have been committed.

Sorry, Mar, I’ve not seen any evidence that Hamas launched any of the 14 rockets during the June-Nov 4th period. There are other groups in Gaza that fire rockets too, and largely Hamas was able to stop them from firing rockets during that period.

Irie, I, despite being non-Zionist, support Israel’s right to defend it’s citizens.

Yes we should do what we can to help the victims of crimes, but then lets have some of that proportionality you people seem to go on about. Lets put our focus and moral outrage on those crimes which are worst.

There is car theft and then there is child murder. The police must deal with both, but don’t you think that they should focus their attention on preventing child murder?

Would it seem a bit strange for you if the UK were more outraged over people being cheated out of a few pounds due to voting regularities on a reality TV show, than they were about the torture and murder of the innocent child “Baby P”?

Alec, I still am non-Zionist, but as I pointed out to Nearly Oxfordian, this is only for religious reasons, and I have always rejected the immoral secular Anti-Zionist arguments.

War crimes: targetting and killing civilians, in the form of policemen, and disproportionate use of force.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5439608.ece

Benny Morris in today’s Sunday Times: “Israel has no choice but to be tough on Hamas - and Iran”

Alec - from Amnesty International:

“It is utterly unacceptable for Israel to continue to purposefully deprive 1.5 million people of food and other basic necessities. Such a policy cannot be justified on any security or other grounds and must end immediately,” said Amnesty International. “Israel must allow international humanitarian and human rights workers immediate and safe access to Gaza.”

Amnesty International reiterates its call for an end to reckless and unlawful Israeli attacks against densely populated residential areas which have killed more than 300 Palestinians since 27 December, including scores of unarmed civilians and police personnel not taking part in the hostilities, and injured several hundred others.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/end-unlawful-attacks-and-meet-gazas-emergency-needs-20081229

Alec - I haven’t organised a protest in my life.

Why not? If your was, as you say, one of principle and hankering to speak for the victims of violence, you would find the energy and acumen. As it stands, you tag along with another group of people who have never organized a protest in their lives, but invariably gravitate to those who excoriate Israel.

And look, compared to what is happening in Gaza now, the rockets are very minor things.

If I came to your room at Imperial College and started flicking paper-clips at you, I doubt you’d be tolerant of this “minor thing”. If I progressed to tossing pencils, I suspect you’d call security. If I were taken down with an arm-lock, I expect you’d be satisfied even though it was hardly directly proportional to my “minor things”.

Of course, this is a crude analogy, as paper-clips or cartwheeling pencils are not intended to or have never shredded human flesh.

Martin

“Benny Morris in today’s Sunday Times: “Israel has no choice but to be tough on Hamas - and Iran””

Ah yes Benny Morris - proponent of ethnic cleansing

Hamas proponents of ethnic cleansing- bad
Israeli proponents of ethnic cleansing-good

Sums up HP morality nicely

Alec McPherson

“If I came to your room at Imperial College and started flicking paper-clips at you, I doubt you’d be tolerant of this “minor thing”. If I progressed to tossing pencils, I suspect you’d call security. If I were taken down with an arm-lock, I expect you’d be satisfied even though it was hardly directly proportional to my “minor things”.”

If the room was originally yours and I’d stolen it from you and kicked you out Id deserve pretty much anything you could throw at me

Fair enough, Yossi.

Sorry, Mar, I’ve not seen any evidence that Hamas launched any of the 14 rockets during the June-Nov 4th period.

This is a spoof, right?

from Amnesty International:

“It is utterly unacceptable for Israel to continue to purposefully deprive 1.5 million people of food and other basic necessities.

You’re missing a “would be”. You’re very good at telling Israel what she shouldn’t be doing. How about telling her what she should do, and what the difference is between Gaza and the West Bank, and why Qassams are coming from the former.

TheIrie - how many Israelis have to die before its entitled to self-defence?

Alec - well done on another completely pointless post. You’ve got nothing to say, but by God you’re going to keep saying it.

“If the room was originally yours and I’d stolen it from you and kicked you out Id deserve pretty much anything you could throw at me”

How about if the room belonged to a third party and it partitioned the room?

If the room was originally yours and I’d stolen it from you and kicked you out Id deserve pretty much anything you could throw at me

Which, of course, would be a war-crime and disproportionate. And that’s before we get onto the Jewish population in the region pre-1947 and the fact virtually none, if any, of the organizers of the Qassam attacks were born then.

Alec - I note that Modernity has a post on his blog saying he is against Israels action. Gene is for it I think. Gordon thought it should stop a couple of days ago. Brownie thought it should stop. As an HP regular, what is your position? You know mine.

I’ve been examining the situation in Somalia’s Puntland region after a journalist was kidnapped there: piracy, people smuggling, warlordism, etc. Puntland is a threat to international shipping lanes, people are struggling to feed themselves as ships won’t go there and Islamists are threatening to take the place over in order to gain leverage over global trade through the Gulf of Aden. The region is currently going through elections that could determine its future. No media coverage, no “solidarity” movements, no calls for action, no concern whatsoever that this strategically important area of the world is falling apart. Why? Because it cannot be used as a propaganda war by the left and the right, there are no obvious war proxies and it is too complex for tiny minds to understand. Instead, there is an unending obsession with a tiny portion of land with the population of Essex.

Like apartied 20 years ago, Palestine is the moral issue of this generation

TheIrie, stop for a minute and think about what else is going on in the world– much of it vastly underreported. Are you so easily swayed by platform speakers at a demo? Would you at least concede that Palestine is one of many moral issues of this generation, rather than the moral issue of this generation?

[...] No media coverage, no “solidarity” movements, no calls for action, no concern whatsoever that this strategically important area of the world is falling apart. Why?

That’s easy. It’s because there are no Joooos there.

I have not been following it closely enough to come to a definite conclusion, but if I did, suspect it would be close to my position on the 2006 war. I supported the immediate response, and then came to desire an end.

However, what is being discussed here is your reflexive opposition to any Israeli policy. Gordon or Modernity or Brownie’s positions are not being discussed. The reason they can call for a halt without accusations of bias is because they do not, as sure as eggs is eggs, oppose the Israeli policy of the moment. You do. They will not have called the rocket attacks “minor things”. Please do not reduce them to your level.

During the ceasefire which you say is the way to stop the rockets, you continued to accuse Israel of strangling, or some other ghoulish analogy, Gaza. Now you’re holding it up as the way to go, after Hamas declared it over. Which is it?

Did you know that during the ceasefire, from June to November, 14 rockets were fired in 4 months, an average of just over 3 per month (0 in August). And why was that? There was a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, that’s why.

Did you know that the ceasefire was not to November 1, but to December 19? Of course, you did. Based on the links you provided, while the truce was in effect, 199 rockets and 102 mortars were fired into Israel – not merely 14 rockets. And why was that? Because you deliberately attempted to mis-charaterize the number of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel by Gaza during the truce.

Would you at least concede that Palestine is one of many moral issues of this generation, rather than the moral issue of this generation?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, you can look at any opinion poll in the Palestinian territories and 70 percent of the people will say they’re perfectly ready to live side by side with Israel because they just want to live in peace. And when it comes right down to it, yeah, there are plenty of extremists in the Palestinian territories who are not going to be easily dealt with. They have to be dealt with — Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in the Palestinian territories — they’re terrorists and they have to be dealt with as terrorists.

But the great majority of Palestinian people — this is — I’ve been with these people. The great majority of people, they just want a better life. This is an educated population. I mean, they have a kind of culture of education and a culture of civil society. I just don’t believe mothers want their children to grow up to be suicide bombers. I think the mothers want their children to grow up to go to university. And if you can create the right conditions, that’s what people are going to do.

QUESTION: Do you think this or do you know this?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think I know it.

QUESTION: You think you know it?

SECRETARY RICE: I think I know it.

-Interview with Cal Thomas, october 25, 2006

@ John P
Sunny: These Muzzies are capable of anything, honestly. Can’t trust them.
John P: You’re South Asian. Have you forgotten Mumbai already?
[...]
As a Sikh you’ve absolutely no stake in the Israel/Palestine conflict
Waseem: What the fuck kind of right do you think you have telling someone what they ought to be concerned with based on their ethnicity?
John P: Sikhism is a religion and not an ethnicity. It is hypocritical of Mr Hundal to attend demonstrations denouncing Israeli defense actions, while at the same time saying little about the islamist terrorist agressions taking place in his home country, India.

Waseem busted you and your racism and you answered completely disingenuously. Not least because, under UK law, Sikhism is defined as a race. Whether you agree with the law or not, you also referred to Sunny being South Asian and to “his home country, India”.

So, as Waseem said, what right do you think you have telling someone what they ought to be concerned with based on their ethnicity?

Gsirrah, John P has proven repeatedly that he has no right to say anything (other than a legal right), but he keeps on saying it.

Gene - yes, I’ll go with that.

TheAirie: “Yossi - the point was made at the demo, that the speakers on the stage, and many of the marchers are the very same people who years ago were marching against apartied in South Africa. Like apartied 20 years ago, Palestine is the moral issue of this generation, and people who care about humanity will stand up against these injustices, until they end. One day, they will end.”

As the say in Texas “all hat, no cattle.” Listen to someone who does more than just ‘talk a good revolution’ about apartheid, and injustice with regard to where Israel stands in the heirarchy; and the resonating silence coming from the ant-Israel noisemakers about other injustices. The moral question of this generation is more likely to be “where were you when Sudan, Somalia, Rwanda and others were dying, when girls were being mutilated, when gays were being hung, when Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Sufis, Ba’hai’s and who-all else were being murdered?”

Sorry I don’t know how to make this a hyperlink:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/12/human-rights-activist-former-slave.html

The Erie

This is the third time for the first question the second for the second;

Again, I will ask you, Why have you and your comrades never organized a march against Hamas and its’ indiscriminate shelling of a sovereign nation?

Where were you when the Seder Massacre started this off?

What would you all do without TheIrie and Benji, they are such suckers for Fisking and so easy to Fisk that I think HP management pays them to show up as devils advocates.

TheIrie,

Yes, I am against the Israeli action in Gaza, despite many good and strong arguments for it, it is not something that I can support.

But my opposition to Israeli military action does NOT make me blind to Hamas’s intent.

Nor would I want to live any where near Gaza as an Israeli. They are in a terrible position, 8 years of rockets and mortars, with the range of rockets increasing from about 8 miles to 25, thanks to Hamas.

So in the past 6 months Hamas have done NOTHING for the Gazans, but they’ve managed to build and develop better rockets, that says it all.

I wish I could think of a peaceful way of Israel stopping Hamas and its assorted groupings from attacking Israeli civilians, but I can’t.

and to be frank, I am sick to my stomach of the cant spoken about Hamas, as if they are boy scouts, they are NOT.

Hamas are ideologically antisemitic thugs, who would kill every Jew in Israel if they had the means.

So the sight of Westerners fawning over Hamas is nauseating to me, bearing in mind that these theocratic gangsters are anti-Gay, anti-progress, anti-women’s rights, racist, etc.

and the next time the Sudanese Govt, or its proxies, commit mass murder in Darfur I doubt we’ll hear a squeak out of the leading “anti-war” groupies from today.

I wonder why?

I see the post has been updated with a photo of the inevitable “WE ARE HAMAS” placard. And it’s a dandy, too! There you go, sunny & Co. That’s your fellow protesters showing solidarity with terrorists. Nice going.

In the meantime back at the Strip:

Hamas moves on Fatah ‘collaborators’

Jan. 4, 2009
Khaled Abu Toameh , THE JERUSALEM POST
The Hamas government has placed dozens of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they might exploit the current IDF operation to regain control of the Gaza Strip.

The move came amid reports that the Fatah leadership in the West Bank has instructed its followers to be ready to assume power over the Gaza Strip when and if Israel’s military operation results in the removal of Hamas rule.

Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.

“Hamas is very nervous, because they feel that their end is nearing,” a senior Fatah official said. “They have been waging a brutal campaign against Fatah members in the Gaza Strip.” …

Read the rest, here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Tim: What, this one?

*Oppose Israel’s assault on Gaza!

* Ceasefire now!

It seems that most people who protest or write against Israel agree about one thing at least: that, though thousands of rockets were already used by Hamas and though there are probably many more of them hidden all over (or rather, under) Gaza, they weren’t very useful, not in a military (or political) sense.

Now, I don’t know whether Gaza is completely self-sufficient, whether it has all the raw materials it needs to manufacture rockets for instance, but I don’t think that’s the case, and that means that those rockets or their parts were smmugled into Gaza.

If the population there was so absolutely hungry and sick, however, how come Hamas gave priority to the acquisition and smmugling of useless weaponry instead of to food and medicines?

Boogski

“I see the post has been updated with a photo of the inevitable “WE ARE HAMAS” placard. And it’s a dandy, too! There you go, sunny & Co. That’s your fellow protesters showing solidarity with terrorists. Nice going.”

Yes cos Sunny & co are responsible for what every one of the thousands of protestors did or said. Typical of the guilt by association /collective blame mentality which exists amongst some HPers

bartok

“If the population there was so absolutely hungry and sick, however, how come Hamas gave priority to the acquisition and smmugling of useless weaponry instead of to food and medicines?”

Wasnt one of the reasons Hamas was elected in Gaza was that
1. They werent Fatah
2. They were seen as honest not totally corrupt like Fatah
3. They provided a network of social services to the people

(not forgetting 4. The Palestinians are inately genetically anti-semitic)

So why would they change 3) so drastically now they are in power

HPh:

Yes cos Sunny & co are responsible for what every one of the thousands of protestors did or said.

Nope. They’re responsible for marching in solidarity with them. Especially when they knew these Hamas supporting creeps were likely going to the same protest. Sunny and Co could have protested on a different day.

“Typical of the guilt by association /collective blame mentality which exists amongst some HPers”

What a laugh.

Hamas is a religious political ideology (just as the SS was a political military association) with one aim. The destruction of the Jewish State. All members are agreed upon that program and hence they proclaim their aim/guilt by the mere fact of being members.

Those stupid antisemitic demonstrators who chant “we are all Hamas” have endorsed their aims are also co conspirators in their genocidal enterprise.

Nope. They’re responsible for marching in solidarity with them. Especially when they knew these Hamas supporting creeps were likely going to the same protest. Sunny and Co could have protested on a different day.

It wouldn’t have made much difference, since I protest on my blog every day and I write continuously I oppose Hamas’ racism. You don’t really care whether I’m opposed to Hamas or not, like Gene you’re merely interested in smearing anyone who went on the march.

As for the other discussion about my Sikh background. Frankly, I couldn’t care what others think I should comment on or not.

The Palestinians cannot be genetically anti-Semitic because, as everybody knows, Arabs are Semites too and, thus, any kind of Arab anti-Semitism would be a paradox, a kind of self-hatred besides being, of course, a auto-immune disease. And what better proof do we have of this than the fact that, when the European Jews were threatened with extinction and the whole world (the US and the UK included) closed the doors to most of those trying to get out in order to save their skins, only the Arabs and particularly the Palestinians opened their arms and borders to help and wellcome in their Semitic brothers? It is easy to see that, if the Arab world and Palestine in particular weren’t so open in the 30s and 40s to Jewish refugees (as, btw, Europe is nowadays open to Arab and other Muslim refugees and immigrants), 6 million Jews would have been killed. That would have been a tragedy, I mean, almost a Gaza-like Holocaust… well, maybe not that huge. It is exactly because the Arab and Muslim worlds are so open to refugees and immigrants that the Jews do not need a state of their own. Actually, a Jewish state would only be needed if the Arab countries were to expell their Jewish citizens, but since that is absolutely unlikely…

Just a question. Does anybody here have an explanation for or at least a theory about why is it so important for Ahmadinejad and other Muslim fanatics to deny that the Holocaust ever happened, that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies?

bartok your parody of pro Hamas supporter’ views of history would be lost on them.

One of the more impartial headlines I’ve seen of late:

“Do Israel pilots feel happy killing innocent women and children?”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/gaza-diary-israel

the only celebrating I’ve seen in regards to mass deaths have been done by Palestinians so I venture the answer would be No.

The Guardian continues to dig lower and lower all of the time.

“The Guardian continues to dig lower and lower all of the time.”

The Guardian is an antisemitic tabloid.

I hope Israel takes away its acreditation.

Robbins, you’re right.

And, well, just one more question.

For an outsider, when taking a look at the Anglo-Saxon (and Celtic) world, the Irish seem to be rather overepresented among the so-called anti-Zionists. Is there a reason for this?

I don’t know Bartok, I am an Americans and terms anglo-saxon or celt are too quaint to take seriously.

Eamon De Valera did offer his condolences on Hitler’s death to the German Minister in Dublin. The apple rarely falls far from the tree.

The world’s “largest concentration camp”, before the strike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4g1-HTJYEk&eurl=http://www.israellycool.com/

Now let’s talk about that food and fuel shortage…

Pisa, LOL!!!

The Guardian is an antisemitic tabloid.

I suggest you tell that to Brent Hoberman, co-founder of Lastminute.com, who sits on the Guardian Media Group board, or Guardian columnist and editorial writer Jonathan Freedland, or Seth Freedman.

As for being a tabloid, it is not generally considered as such. It is not even tabloid size (430 mm × 280 mm). It is published in the Berliner format (470 mm × 315 mm), which, incidentally, is the format Haaretz uses.

The Guardian is a newspaper with a rather unpleasant tone of anti-semitism.

I would consider many of its writers to be anti-semitic (Ingram, Milne and more).

It is not a tabloid, not that that really makes the blindest bit of difference to anything (albeit I can understand that benjamin would like to explore that cul de sac further).

The existence of ‘writers’ such as Freedland and Freedman does not mean very much. What it does do is enable The guardian to say ‘ we cannot possibly be anti-semitic…we have jewish writers’ etc etc.

Julie Burchill wrote on this topic several years ago.

Frankly though, who gives a shit (and perhaps the thread could reurn to the demo now). The people that buy it do so because they like its stance. The overwhelming majority of the British public wouldn’t be seen dead reading it.

MattG

“So the sight of Westerners fawning over Hamas is nauseating to me, bearing in mind that these theocratic gangsters are anti-Gay, anti-progress, anti-women’s rights, racist, etc.

and the next time the Sudanese Govt, or its proxies, commit mass murder in Darfur I doubt we’ll hear a squeak out of the leading “anti-war” groupies from today. ”

I agree with what modernity said. One must also bear in mind the number of people in London, the number of muslims in London, the amount of media time this story has got. Then consider again the numbers on the London March (be it 5000 or even 50000). The numbers are quite pathetic.

Frankly though, if it was a march of 5 million, it wouldnt mean a thing. Israel is taking its action to protect its country and its citizens. Crouch End Annie, Hampstead Henrietta and Barnes Bob are not really her concern.

MattG

As for being a tabloid, it is not generally considered as such. It is not even tabloid size (430 mm × 280 mm). It is published in the Berliner format (470 mm × 315 mm), which, incidentally, is the format Haaretz uses.

Holy shit, Benj. How long have have you been parsing away? In general usage, “tablod” refers less to how often the newsprint has been folded. Most people think of a paper with dubious ethics and accuracy.

So Sunny, did you carry a Tatchellesque “no Hamas, no IDF” placard as you promised, or not?

In general usage, “tablod” refers less to how often the newsprint has been folded. Most people think of a paper with dubious ethics and accuracy.

‘Tabloid’ basically means condensed or compressed, and has a pharmaceutical derivation. The actual tabloid size is as I mentioned.

The Guardian is not referred to as tabloid (either pertaining to size or the vernacular) because it does not generally contain the shorter sensationalist tidbits associated with that type of newspaper, including celebrity gossip etc., and photographs of semi-naked women (although of course it has a bit of all that on occasion).

Dubious ethics or accuracy is separate issue, and can be associated with any newspaper, and are not necessarily the defining chararcteristics of a tabloid newspaper.

What a shame the thraed hasn’t touched upon the message which Peter Tatchell has on his placard.

His sentiment, condemning Israel and Hamas, is one I readily share. We would differ though as I approach the issue from a class analysis. Palestinian workers and Israeli workers should unite against the capitalists (be they Arab or Israeli) and the politics they espouse, be it Political Islam or Zionism.

Working Class Internationalism is an old socialist, core tenet which the Left really does seem to have forgotten with their infantile disorder “anti-imperialism”

For an outsider, when taking a look at the Anglo-Saxon (and Celtic) world, the Irish seem to be rather overepresented among the so-called anti-Zionists. Is there a reason for this?

Eh?

Palestinian workers and Israeli workers should unite against the capitalists (be they Arab or Israeli) and the politics they espouse, be it Political Islam or Zionism.

For at least the first 20 years of israel’s existence, it was pretty much a socialist country.

ANY business that set up in israel had to have 51% state ownership and many, many israelis lived in socialist settlements known as kibbutzim. Israel eventually realised that for true development, socialism etc. is not the way forward.

Alec - did you see the Edinburgh demo? A couple of hundred people, the banners mostly Boycott Israel, no Hamas ones that I could see, and the only bit of a speech I heard said “slow genocide” rather than outright “genocide”.

Dan S

State ownership (kibbutzes for that matter, too) is not socialism, for reasons I have explained previously in the HP comments box.

I spoke to George Galloway as he was on the western side of High St Kensington returning from Trafalgar Square, he was visibly shaken and he spoke of the Police assault in the tunnell.

When 2 million marched against the IraqWar, the Police and press put it at 150,000. There were closer to 60,000 people at Trafalgar Square yesterday, of who 1% were calling for a cease-fire from both sides and 99% were calling for an end to Israel terror and occupation.

Palestine the “moral issue of our generation”

Hmmm. So much one could say about this - some already said like what about other far bloodier crises. Also, that it suits the anti US agenda of the reactionary so called Post left because Israel is the US’s ally. Add in a fair smattering of anti semitism (yes I know, it isn’t necessarilly anti semitic to criticise Israel but that doesn’t mean that no criticism of Israel is or could antisemitic - whatever Livingstone says).

I want to make another point which is that it all plays to the odd “lets be nice to the Jihadis” tendancy - which extends well beyond the post left and perhaps is even the default position of the modern so called “thinking man” (heaven help us!). This view hopes though none too explicitly, that by sacrificing Israel all will be well and the Jihadis will leave the rest of us alone. Leave asdie the rather dubious morality of this (and perhaps again, the at least, objective anti semitism) and marvel at the bollock aching stupidity of this view. Just for those who still fail to get it let me spell it out - having destroyed Israel with the active connivance of misplaced guilt feelings of the world’d so called intelliginetsia ad media, why on earth should a a clearly mega prgrammatic movement like Jihadism stop when its on a roll?

Inciedentally Paul - Indymedia has dropped the picture you linked to - they say one possibility is that it has been archived which I imagine would make it a record archiving !!!!!! As a matter of intereest what did it show?

What a shame the thraed hasn’t touched upon the message which Peter Tatchell has on his placard.

His sentiment, condemning Israel and Hamas, is one I readily share.

Middle ground fallacy!

“Does anybody here have an explanation for or at least a theory about why is it so important for Ahmadinejad and other Muslim fanatics to deny that the Holocaust ever happened, that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies?”

Bartok were you actually there and you counted 6 million bodies? Whats your source and evidential basis of “6 million Jews were killed”?

(I now expect to get bombarded with insults from for the mere suggestion of asking about the Holocaust statistics. Fanatics can never engage in reasonable dialogue, preferring to oppress and illegitimise opinion and counter views)

spgb gray
I grew up in a socialist country, led by a communist party. Believe me, it doesn’t work. What most workers want is to become capitalists (or at least live like them).

A pro-palestinian demo in San Francisco. With a twist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMXH81ctj2o&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

Judge for yourselves.

Irene.
He was pretty shaken up before then

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WQjMYy-1oaM

Athough I suspect even the desperate man himself would blanche at your support.

Irene
“Bartok were you actually there and you counted 6 million bodies? Whats your source and evidential basis of “6 million Jews were killed”?”

You should have told us you just came from outer space. You forgot to say “I come in peace”. Very important when dealing with the Bartoks and Pisas of this world.

Try this site:
http://www.nizkor.org/

Nick

thanks for the “logical fallacy” lesson. There is though a problem in quoting a logical fallacy as an argument, and that is the logical fallacy disproof logical fallacy. (I made that one up. You are trying to disprove an argument quoting a logical fallacy in the belief doing so actually does disprove a point of view/has relevance.)

My point C (if we use the definition given in the link you provide) is not sitting in the middle. It’s like when people tell me things aren’t black and white; I agree, as things are black, white and red. The red being a reference to the socialist take of things.

Peter Tatchell accepts capitalism, whereas I do not. His is perhaps closer to the point C you are thinking of. I am arguing for Israelis and Palestinian workers turning their backs on Hamas, Zionism and their ruling classes, and furthermore uniting with workers all around the world for socialism. That can’t be said to be sitting in the (poorly defined, in fact not defined) middle ground.

After having several debates with Holocaust deniers (or quibblers) under my belt I can safely say that there is little value in debating people for whom historicity means so very little.

Bartok, was well within reason to use the overwhelmingly historically supported figure of 6 million, and he does not have to defend himself or that figure, with a protracted exposition of the evidence, on a thread related to anti-Israel protesters in London.

If I understood him correctly, he was simply asking, why do certain Arab and Muslim individuals feel such a need to question or deny the Holocaust. This is a legitimate question. If you can’t answer it then don’t.

Pisa, thanks for your comment. So which is it, 6 million, as Bartok says, or 12 million, as the website you reference says?

Isnt it no different to the protest organisers saying 75,000 people attended at Trafalgar Square, and some of the press saying 12,000?

Surely, it would all depend on what time they counted, whether they counted just those on the Square or those also marching, and whether they counted people coming and going in the overall count.

By the same token, people debate the numbers killed in the Holocaust, and they do so using various scientified approaches and techniques. Why do fanatics therefore wish to make it a crime? Why attempt to oppress and block questions if there is indeed nothoing to hide and everything claimed is true?

YossiUk, so why is he asking that question on a protest thread? Go start another topic and comment thread about “why do people deny the Nazi holocaust”. the Trafalgar Square protest was not about the Nazi holocaust, it was about the Gaza Holocaust.

Pisa

just out of interest, where did you live, if I may ask?

Whatever country it was, the ruling capitalist class (made up of its Communist Party) did a good job in fooling you and workers outside that country.

I doubt workers want to live like capitalists as only the myopic believe they will be major shareholders, get to live in mansions, own yachts and go on holiday to one of their many homes around the world. It’s probably true to say people wouldn’t mind a comfier, higher standard of living…but that isn’t the same.

“I am arguing for Israelis and Palestinian workers turning their backs on Hamas, Zionism and their ruling classes, and furthermore uniting with workers all around the world for socialism.”

The problem with that of course, is the same as with any argument for worldwide socialism - as utopian and idealistic as it sounds, it requires the small matter of human nature fundamentally shifting and billions of people rejecting the belief systems they have had all their lives (and most likely, permeated the society they were born into for countless generations previously). I think you will find more realists around here.

Peter Tatchell told me he got a positive response even from supporters of Hama, any chance by the way of you posting something on the tel aviv protest for peace with 10,000 against the war?

“the Trafalgar Square protest was not about the Nazi holocaust, it was about the Gaza Holocaust.”

Do you not realise how contradictory you are sounding?

Not about the Nazi Holocaust. So I assume their and your use of the word Holocaust, is completely coincidental is it?

You equation with the situation in Gaza to the Holocaust, is a direct and in no way subtle denial of the Nazi Holocaust, and while this may not be obvious to you, but in reality I’m sure it is, it could not be clearer to those of us not degraded by consuming hate.

Irene
Stupid question. 6 million jews, but nobody said nazis killed only jews.

spgb gray
Romania

Irene

you’re coming across as a slightly annoying whiny sixth former trying to score some rather silly points by quibbling about six million or not. Some rather unpleasant people are quite keen to jump on any little inconsistency they can find like this - rather like creationists that argue about evolution.

it’s quite tragic although there seems to be a few professional point scores on here. At least no one takes any notice of threads like this

Holocaust is a unversal english language word. No group has an exclusive copyright or monopoly to its use.

Public opinion throughout the world, whether supporters of Israel like or not, is referring to the Gaza invasion as a Holocaust.

Why do sympathisers of Israeli terrorism always resort to hiding behind claims of “anti-semitism” and “holocaust denier” accuastions whenever the crimes of the Israeli state and its occupation army are highlighted?

“Peter Tatchell told me he got a positive response even from supporters of Hama”

You mean the town or the massacre of Islamists (widely protested at the time by errr…?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

Rob G

I fully understand the “charge” of being “unrealistic”. There are many forces working against working class unity, for socialism. (The belief by many on the Left that socialism existed in the Soviet Union is but one of those forces.)

Capitalism though does quite a bit of the work in creating people who question the system. The economic crises right now has led people to question capitalism, for example.

I can only do what I can as an individual; argue my corner to a handful of people and hope they agree.

Kendogsdadsdead,

I know several “slightly annoying whiny sixth former”s who have become millionaires with their own business. dont knock them.

The questions may be “annoying” for you to answer, but why avoid answering them. No one will accept that “its true because I am telling you it is”!

The word Holocaust is a word that has become synonymous with the Nazi genocide of Jews. The overwhelming majority of people would associate the world Holocaust with that Nazi genocide of Jews as you well know.

The use of the word Holocaust by a minority of immature, agenda driven ideologues, to demonise the the “Jewish” state, is not a coincidence at all.

Please Irene don’t patronise the readership of Harry’s Place with such self serving, drivel.

As someone who has no strong viewpoint either way but hates humbug and cant and point scoring psuedo-intellectuals, Irene let me assure you that public opinion across the world isn’t calling it a holocaust and that the word is understood by 99% of your ‘normal’ men and women in the street as referring to the attempted elimination of the Jews by Hitler.

I’m not an Israeli sympathiser but you do appear to have a slightly weird view of events up to 1945. And alarmingly, you don’t have the common sense or nous to realise how this makes you appear to others.

YossiU, your biased political interpretation of a dictionary word is neither here nor there.

Try this:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/holocaust

and in years to come, the dictionary will be updated with other holocausts, such as the one being perpetrated in Palestine.

Again, when fanatics lose a reasonable argumnent, they resort to abuse. I have not abused you, so why refer to my views as “self serving, drivel”? Tackle my arguments if I am wrong with facts and reason.

If you cant, then the readers of this blog will make their interpretations and views.

Kendodd’sdad’sdog’sdead

Top band ! - Sadly gone a while ago though surely, how do you know of them ?

“Again, when fanatics lose a reasonable argumnent, they resort to abuse. I have not abused you, so why refer to my views as “self serving, drivel”? Tackle my arguments if I am wrong with facts and reason”

Exactly I referred to your views as “self serving drivel”. I have tackled you arguments, and you are wrong with facts and reason.

It is just my contention that your political bias prevents you from debating in a reasonable fashion.

Irene, it is clear that there is no further benefit in you and I debating.

Accuse me of point scoring, but here’s a top Israeli referring to the “GAZA HOLOCAUST”

“The more [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves,” Matan Vilnai told Israeli army radio.

http://arabist.net/archives/2008/02/29/bbc-israel-warns-of-gaza-holocaust/

and reported by the BBC. The term is fast gaining acceptance.

MMN

they’re still going, strong as ever.

and appositely they have nothing but total respect for Annie Lennox - see Paintball’s coming home. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IxR0JY-FMh8

Irene

The six million was established at Nuremberg in 1946 quoted by Adolf Eichmann. ‘Most research’ confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million.

Don’t ask for refs as it’s only as poxy internet forum - look em up

Wasn’t it Bush who created a furore over his choice of the word ‘crusade’ when talking about the war on terror? And that was a complex battle between relatively matched sides hundreds of years ago, not a mass extermination of a racial minority, many survivors of which still exist. The choice of the word ‘crusade’ in that case was ill-judged and stupid. The choce of the word ‘holocaust’ in this case is coldly calculated to cause great offence and.

Oops, deleted the last few words

…and is dishonest on playing on the perception the right thinking 99% of the public understand by its usage.

MMN,

Thanks for that reference to the 5-6 million. But I understand that the Nuremberg trials were highly discredited due to a number of major legal principals being ignored.

and also I understand that the Jersulame trial in 1961 did not refer to the “6 million”.

THE POINT I am making is not how many did die or whether 6 million died, the point is WHY ARE groups trying to make it a criminal offence for people to debate that number scientifically?

Irene

“Accuse me of point scoring, but here’s a top Israeli referring to the “GAZA HOLOCAUST”

“The more [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves,” Matan Vilnai told Israeli army radio.

http://arabist.net/archives/2008/02/29/bbc-israel-warns-of-gaza-holocaust/

and reported by the BBC. The term is fast gaining acceptance.”

Israelis refer to the holocaust as ’shoah’, a common Hebrew word which means ‘catastrophe’, ‘calamity’, ‘disaster’. It is used all the time in various contexts. English ‘holocaust’ is not, only vile people such as yourself want to change its meaning.

Bartok were you actually there and you counted 6 million bodies? Whats your source and evidential basis of “6 million Jews were killed”?

Oh God almighty, why, why, why do Holocaust deniers always crawl out of the woodwork?

(I now expect to get bombarded with insults from for the mere suggestion of asking about the Holocaust statistics. Fanatics can never engage in reasonable dialogue, preferring to oppress and illegitimise opinion and counter views)

Why are Holocaust deniers so self-regarding? Why do they think the entire world revolves around them? In case Irene doesn’t understand, let me explain. The reason Holocaust denial is dismissed is because it maliciously-motivated anti-Semitic lunacy. One no more debates the fact of the Holocaust than one does the presence of chlorophyll in plants, or heamoglobin in human blood.

Public opinion throughout the world, whether supporters of Israel like or not, is referring to the Gaza invasion as a Holocaust.

No it isn’t. I don’t like the Israeli attack on Gaza, I don’t approve of it, I oppose it. It is a humanitarian tragedy and the deaths of innocent civilians are to be deplored but it is not an act of genocide and NO, public opinion throughout the world is NOT referring to it as a Holocaust either. Irene really must stop fantasising.

Derek Wall - what did you think of the vile and absurd “Stop the Holocaust in Gaza” placards which were out in force ?

I asked Sunny and VP the same question last night and they didn’t seem to have a view - perhaps you have ?

Rob G,

so now you want to re-write EVERY English language dictionary in the world do you for your political ends?

check ANY English dictionary - an independent, unbiased, non-political defininition of a word and it common uses - and holocaust is a generic phrase, with the Nazi Holocaust ONE such use for it in addition to several others.

I can see the Israeli lobby now getting to work on Collins, Oxford,
Cambridge, Dictionary.com etc.

Are they also going to re-define the phrase “murder of innocent children by Israeli soldiers” as “playing football”?

Irene, re your request for sources, see the judgment on David Irving’s failed libel claim to start:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-00-00.html

Red Maria

“One no more debates the fact of the Holocaust than one does the presence of chlorophyll in plants, or heamoglobin in human blood.”

No but at least people dont attempt to criminalise and lock you in prison to suit their warped political agenda if you did decide to debate those topics.

“Rob G,

so now you want to re-write EVERY English language dictionary in the world do you for your political ends?

check ANY English dictionary - an independent, unbiased, non-political defininition of a word and it common uses - and holocaust is a generic phrase, with the Nazi Holocaust ONE such use for it in addition to several others.”

I already refuted this point with my point about the use of the word ‘crusade’. Words carry more semantic content than any dictionary can hope to express simply because of how people associate words and concepts in their minds. The huge majority of people associate ‘holocaust’ with the killing of millions of peoplem this is something you are aware of and play off for your own disgusting ‘political ends’.

OhMiGod - the Huffington Post is having a go at the BBC for its biased coverage on Gaza :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hannah-fisher/bbc—-subtle-indoctrinat_b_153754.html

I’m confused….

Of course questioning the “six million” figure and asking why it can’t be debated is the traditional opening move of the Holocaust denier. I’d normally delete her comments, but I’ll leave them up because I think they reveal something about a large segment of the Israel bashers.

so now you want to re-write EVERY English language dictionary in the world do you for your political ends?

check ANY English dictionary - an independent, unbiased, non-political defininition of a word and it common uses - and holocaust is a generic phrase, with the Nazi Holocaust ONE such use for it in addition to several others.

I can see the Israeli lobby now getting to work on Collins, Oxford,Cambridge, Dictionary.com etc.

Are they also going to re-define the phrase “murder of innocent children by Israeli soldiers” as “playing football”?

What are you on about you silly woman? You don’t even believe The Holocaust occurred?

Look, stop worrying about conspiracies to tamper with dictionaries and other such nonsense and go and lie down somewhere with a cold compress on your forehead.

So “6 million jews died in the Nazi Holocaust”. England lost to Argentina in the World Cup semi-finals. It was freezing weather yesterday.

Get over it! Move on.

Taxi for Irene!

Preferably one without brakes

MoreMediaNonsense,

yes the Huffington article totally fails to mention that during the “truce”, Israeli continued to conduct illegal incursions into Gaza, political assasinations of elected officials in Palestine and sieged the whole area denying the people food, water, fuel and medicines.

its a shame the BBC fails to mention these facts and has falled for the Israeli line of “the rocket fire has triggerred this Gaza Holocaust”

We keep hearing of 600 rockets, whereas the casualties from those rockets were less than 14 in 8 years. In the same period, over 200 Palestinians were killed by Israel.

“Why do sympathisers of Israeli terrorism always resort to hiding behind claims of “anti-semitism” and “holocaust denier” accuastions whenever the crimes of the Israeli state and its occupation army are highlighted?”

Tee-hee.

As has been stated by myself and others, these threads seem to be atracting some pretty low grade stuff at the moment.

But I actually agree Gene. Leave the comments up.

They are comedy gold.

MattG

Irene

“In the same period, over 200 Palestinians were killed by Israel.”

Get over it ! Move on.

Mattg,

Thanks for proving my point again. Fanatics will never address the arguments or questions posed. They will avoid them and resort to abuse.

By the way, can anyone tell me who non-Jews in the democractic state of Israel are not allowed to purchase government owned land?

And also why non-Jews are not allowed to bring their spouses in?

I’d love to know why a “democracy” has laws built on racism.

No but at least people dont attempt to criminalise and lock you in prison to suit their warped political agenda if you did decide to debate those topics.

No one is attempting to criminalise you or throw you in jail. Where does the persecution complex come from? Oh yes, David Irving. Look, if he does insist on libelling people he has to accept the consequences of his actions. As to his jailing in Austria, he knew perfectly well what the law was before he broke it. He chose to break it. He could have amused himself denying the Holocaust to his heart’s content in different jurisdictions. But while we’re about it, Deborah Lipstadt herself argued for Irving to be allowed to utter his spiteful ahistoric rubbish on free speech grounds. And I happen to agree with her. People like you and Irving shouldn’t be bestowed the crown of martyrdom; you don’t deserve to be treated as though you have that kind of moral stature. You don’t. You’re just malicious cranks.

I thought that it was an arrestable offence to declare support for a terrorist organisation. So were the banner holders arrested?

Can they be arrested retrospectively by identifying them and reporting it to the police?

MoreMediaNonsense

I have moved on, but its your Israeli apologists who keep imposing themselves on news stations about the “600 rockets” that killed a handful of people in 8 years.

What this thread is about is the Gaza Holocaust and the protest which took place yesterday with 12-75,000 people.

How many people protested around the world about Hamas rockets? anyone?

So “6 million jews died in the Nazi Holocaust”. England lost to Argentina in the World Cup semi-finals. It was freezing weather yesterday.

Get over it! Move on.

That is precisely why you have no business talking about the racism of the Israeli state. And incidentally, it’s not as if I disagree with those who condemn Israel’s treatment of Palestinians; I don’t. But Irene, you don’t actually care about the Palestinians. You don’t care about racism. You can’t do. You’re a racist yourself.

“but its your Israeli apologists who keep imposing themselves on news stations”

Thats why I keep coming back!

“….the protest which took place yesterday with 12-75,000 people.”

Ha Ha Ha - now I get it - you’re a spoof.

Quite a good one though - definitely stupid enough to pass off as a useful idiot Hamas fan.

Apologies.

Didn’t mean to feed the troll but been dying to use that phrase since I first saw it.

mattG

The label of Hamas as a “terror” organisation is a political one. They are terrorists as much as the British and French resistance fighting the Nazis on their own soil, protecting their own people and land.

Hamas was actually assisted in its setup by the Israeli government who wanted to isolate Arafat.

The Israelis refer to bombing only Hamas infrastructure. Well, let me remind everyone, Hamas is the democratically elected government of that region. Fatah refused to accept the will of the people, and had to be thrown out.

So “Hamas infrastructure” would be no different to Israel bobming schools, hospitals, police stations and other state buildings in the UK.

Before you talk about hidden weapons stores, Israel openly imports billions of dollars of terrorist hardware from the USA> DO you really expect Hamas to hide its crude home-made weapons in out-of-town warehouses signposted “Hamas Weapons Factory”? Get real, they are an occupied people suffering a holocause, of course they will hide weapons in basements.

There were NO rockets on jews before the occupation and neither were there any suicide bombers. Doesnt that say it all? Occupation of Palestine is the root cause of this conflict.

By the way. The Gazans

“suffering a holocause”

is pretty good. I’d have been proud of that one myself.

MattG

but i think it was just cos he/she can’t spell!

MattG

MattG,

You are so clever. Did you spot that spelling mistake all by yourself? Oh, what a clever little boy you are.

Does anyone know when Israel will end its occupation of Palestine, before which there was no hatred or killing of jews in that region.

“Does anyone know when Israel will end its occupation of Palestine, before which there was no hatred or killing of jews in that region.”

I just spat out my cornflakes, which is rather worrying, as I wasn’t eating any cornflakes.

MattG,

Isnt that like the robber who will give only give the old lady her handbag back, if people stop calling him a robber?

I can see the likes of Gene who consider DELETING my views on this blog, and the likes of MoreMediaNonsense “confused” by complaints against the BBC when he thought the zionists had the BBC under its thumb as further enactments of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion which seeks to curb all counter-opinion and take complete control of all press, media and movie production.

Well done guys, your blog is an excellent insight into the minds and ways of the zionists and confirmation of the agenda.

“as further enactments of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion which seeks to curb all counter-opinion and take complete control of all press, media and movie production.”

What is that document Irene, it sounds interesting - do you have a link ?

well, that just shows you, holocaust deniers and assorted cranks are now supporting Hamas, what fine company they are keeping!

So which is it, 6 million, as Bartok says, or 12 million, as the website you reference says?

The Nizkor, the website referenced, gives the number Jewish victims of the Holocaust as 5,721,500, not 12 million.

Rob G, those were MY cornflakes.

PUT THEM BACK

MoreMediaNonsense,

here you go (as if you didnt know all about it already):
http://www.threeworldwars.com/protocols.htm

We keep hearing the zionists say “but its a forgery” “its a fake” “its designed to slur jews” etc., but they never seem to address the obvious question - WHY ARE SO MANY OF THE PROTOCOLS BEING ENACTED, AND THAT EVIDENCE FOR THAT IS CLEARCUT?

Irene - did you hear about the Jews who didn’t turn for work on 9/11 ?

Irene - BTW are you a member of any political grouping in the UK ?

dave, The Nizkor website actually refers to 12 MILLION on its home page.

modernityblog, for the record, I am not a holocaust denier. I am a lover of freedom of speech and opinion and I dont see why groups attempt to make denial or debate of the holocaust and the dead numbers as a crime. What are they afraid of - the truth being exposed? Dont they see that by doing that it appears more that there is a conspiracy to hide something.

let the researchers do their research on holocaust, as they do on any other topic from the “virgin birth” and the “start of the universe” to “egyptology”.

MoreMediaNonsense , yes I am a member of that notorious political group known as… The British Public.

Irene, were you on the march yesterday? And what placard were you carrying? And what group were you marching with?

WHY ARE SO MANY OF THE PROTOCOLS BEING ENACTED, AND THAT EVIDENCE FOR THAT IS CLEARCUT?

Because you haven’t been taking your medication, dear.

But what about the Jews who didn’t turn up for work on 9/11 ?

I’m waiting for one of our non-Holocaust denying, non-Protocols believing Israel bashers to tell Irene to fuck off. Confront the haters in your own ranks, anyone?

MoreMediaNonsense,

I dont know whether jews turned up to the twin towers on 9/11 or not.

However, I do know about the 3 dancing men with binoculars congratulating and hugging each other on a nearby rooftop to the Twin Towers sa the planes hit, as reported by an independent female witness, and who were later traced and found to have flown to Israel.

Gene
4 January 2009, 1:54 pm

“I’m waiting for one of our non-Holocaust denying, non-Protocols believing Israel bashers to tell Irene to fuck off. Confront the haters in your own ranks, anyone?”

Yeh, where is that bloke from the (’not anti semitic but anti zionist’) Green Party who was here a short while ago making some suggestions about what this blog should post (??).

Hang on ….you don’t think……’Irene’ is a Green?????

MattG

dave,

thanks for re-inforcing my point that the fanatics will not answer the questions, they will avoid or abuse them. So you have no answer for why zionists are enacting the Protocols?

“However, I do know about the 3 dancing men with binoculars congratulating and hugging each other on a nearby rooftop to the Twin Towers sa the planes hit, as reported by an independent female witness, and who were later traced and found to have flown to Israel.”

Israeli Morris Dancers?

MattG

Gene,

You either want to delete my views or tell me to “fuck off”. Thats again a clear reinforcement of my point of zionists - force your views on everyone, dont listen to anyone elses views, if they attempt to portray a view different to yours call them “terrorists” and “extremists” and kill them!

ha ha!

You guys on this blog are classic zionists. I’m loving it.

So you have no answer for why zionists are enacting the Protocols?

Out of pure evil. Is that the right answer? If it’s wrong, can I have another try?

And you haven’t answered my very simple, factual questions.

Irene, were you on the march yesterday? And what placard were you carrying? And what group were you marching with?

Can anyone tell me please - why does Israel “have a right to exist”?

Irene - you think the Israeli state may have been responsible for 9/11 ?

No wonder you’re so angry !

Now just to be clear on your politics because this is getting interesting - have you ever heard of George Galloway and Respect Renewal ? I’ve heard they take a very strong line against Zionism. So do the SWP. Did you see many of them with you on the march yesterday ?

KB Player, i was on the march against the Gaza Holocaust and Israeli occupation and Israeli terrorism, but disappointed that it was necessary.

Were you marching against Hamas rockets?

dave, The Nizkor website actually refers to 12 MILLION on its home page.

But, it does not say 12 MILLION died. Give it up.

MoreMedianNonsense,

you were there taking selective photos. Did you take photos of Jews for Justice in Palestine - there were lots of them there.

did you take photos of the Neturei Karte? they were there too.

dave, sorry, but it does

i quote the head of the home page:
“Dedicated to 12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died
at the hands of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime”

dave, thanks for re-inforcing my point that the fanatics will not answer the questions, they will avoid or abuse them. So you have no answer for why zionists are enacting the Protocols?

Obviously, I was not direct enough. You are mentally ill. Most likely, a personality disorder. That is the answer to your question.

Irene - I reckon you’re in the SWP. They have very close views to yours.

And if you’re not - you should be !

“WHY ARE SO MANY OF THE PROTOCOLS BEING ENACTED, AND THAT EVIDENCE FOR THAT IS CLEARCUT?”

The Protocols are clearly a ludicrous forgery.

“Eurabia” however is totally true

“I’m waiting for one of our non-Holocaust denying, non-Protocols believing Israel bashers to tell Irene to fuck off. Confront the haters in your own ranks, anyone?”

Irene fvck off. BTW She isnt from “my ranks” nor the people many of them Jewish who oppose Israelis opression of the Palestinians

Implying that people who criticize Israel for its actions are holocaust deniers who believe the protocols is just barmy.

No, I wasn’t marching.

That’s only one question you’ve answered. There were two others. What placard were you carrying? And what group were you marching with?

MoreMediaNonsense,

Did you take photos of the jewish protestors against Israeli actions?

KB Player,

I am not under interrogation, I will be happy to answer more when someone tells me:

When will Israel end its occuapation of Palestine, before which there were no Hamas rockets or suicide bombers?

HPh has stepped up to the plate. Any others?

Right. It says 12 million suffered and died. It does not say 12 million died. It does estimate that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust as 5,721,500.

I believe you’ve done enough trolling here.

“The Protocols are clearly a ludicrous forgery.”

Clearly? Clearly? Please explain!

” I will be happy to answer more when someone tells me:

When will Israel end its occuapation of Palestine, before which there were no Hamas rockets or suicide bombers?”

OK - I reckon - this March after they are defeated by Hamas.

Now tell us if you’re in the SWP or Respect Renewal. And if not which political group you are associated with.

dave,

Excuse me, but I thought in the English language the word “AND” meant together.

“John and Jane had sex and then went to sleep”.
Does this mean John had sex alone and Jane went to sleep?

12 million “suffered and died” means the claim is 12 million suffered AND 12 million died”.

I am not under interrogation, I will be happy to answer more when someone tells me:

When will Israel end its occuapation of Palestine, before which there were no Hamas rockets or suicide bombers?

Now, that’s a loaded question. I asked you easy factual questions. Here’s another one:- Why are you so coy about declaring your political alliances?

Irene fvck off.

Thank you.

MoreMediaNonsense,

The Israeli regime did not like the outcome of the free and fair Palestinian elections which elected Hamas as the legitimate government, so they now attempt to play games.

By the same token, I already told you I am a member of the Great British Public. You seem not to like to hear that.

I suggest you take a walk down your high street and ask 10 people at random what they think of Israel. Or would you prefer to sit at home and stick your head in the sand from reality.

Gene, you fuck off too. thank you very much.

Now, tell me do you support the killing of Palestinian children in schools and mosque?

Irene - I’m trying to help, honestly I am.

You’ve convinced me by your learning and given me knowledge I never knew.

Now all I ask is - are you in the SWP ?

MoreMediaNonsense,

There you go again, refusing to accept an answer you dont like.

Do you have a British passport? Have you been to Israel to be trained as an occupation terrorist soldier? Have you lived and worked in an illegal settlement or kibbutz? Have you shot Palestinian children in the head? Have you manned Israeli checkpoints and prevented pregnant women and sick patients from getting to hospital?

HpH thank you.

I also agree that……

“Implying that people who criticize Israel for its actions are holocaust deniers who believe the protocols is just barmy.”

Some do, most certainly do not. There I suspect our consensus ends.

But I believe I have more understanding and sympathy with the palestinian cause than many on this blog and beyond who claim to be speaking on behalf of it.

I also believe that organisations critical of Israel who attract these people (ie people like ‘Irene’) need to be quick (and quicker) to distance themselves from them than they are/have been.

Th Green Party (with the ludicrous Caroline Lucas), various union members during the Delich affair etc. They have been more interested in bashing jews/zionists than actually confronting the hatred and ignorance within their own ranks.

MattG

OK, now i’ve got it!

So the previous tactics were to accuse people to point out Israeli crimes as “anti-semitism” or “holocaust deniers”. The new tactics is accuse them of being a Green or Socialist Worker!

Does it not occur to you fanatics that its is quite feasible for an ordinary British citizen to be appalled at Israeli crimes, and they dont need to be “affiliated” to any organisation to form that view?

The Israeli regime did not like the outcome of the free and fair Palestinian elections which elected Hamas as the legitimate government, so they now attempt to play games.

And? I didn’t like the outcome of the general election in the UK in 1992. It’s anyone and everyone’s right so to ‘not like’ and formulate a strategy/policy based on such disapproval. Hamas doesn’t accept Israel’s right to exist. So what’s for Israel to like?

I suggest you take a walk down your high street and ask 10 people at random what they think of Israel.

May I suggest you don’t, unless you want to be sectioned?

I invite you ALL on here abusing me to answer the following questions:

1. Do you have a British passport?
2. Have you been to Israel to be trained as an occupation soldier?
3. Have you lived and worked in a settlement or kibbutz built on land taken from Palestinians in the last 42 years?
4. Have you shot Palestinian children in the head?
5. Have you manned Israeli checkpoints and prevented pregnant women and sick patients from getting to hospital?

Yes to the first question, and no to the rest.

Brownie,

if i didnt like the election of Blair or Brown, in a DEMOCRACY, does not give me the right to disregards the laws of the land and to commit crimes and atrocities. The latter is what Isreal does.

Not liking something is fine, but to disregard international law and the norms of freedom and democracy is hypocrisy.

There is nothing in UK law that prevents a survey being conducted in the Queens’s highway with the consent of the participant.

Are the zionists going to seek to secure a new law in Parliament - criminialise stating an opinion about Israel? You are trying to do with “holocaust denial”. When will you realise that oppression and curtailing freedom of expression does not work in a free democracy.

Isn’t Irene lovely?

By the same token, I already told you I am a member of the Great British Public.

Irene must mean she is a member of this Great British Public.

Maven,

“fuck” is what Hezobollah did to the Israeli occupation soldiers in 2006, isnt it?

Maven, I think Irene’s major problem in life is that she doesn’t know what fuck means.

dave,

I would rather be a drunken slapper anyday over being an Israeli child-murdering terrrorist occupation soldier

Not liking something is fine, but to disregard international law and the norms of freedom and democracy is hypocrisy.

Check your Geneva Conventions. Hiding armaments amongst civilians is a war crime. Indiscriminate targeting of civilians is a war crime. Denial of medical assistance to casualties is a war crime.

Sound like anyone you know? I’ll give you a clue: they were elected, but not in Israel.

I would consider many of its writers to be anti-semitic (Ingram, Milne and more).

At the risk of sounding like Benji, and assuming you mean Richard Ingrams (as opposed to quiz show fraudster Charles Ingram), he’s not actually a Guardian writer, and never has been. True, he had a long-running column in the Observer, which started long before the paper was taken over by the Guardian Media Group, but even that’s been defunct for several years now.

I can see why you’d be keen to cite him, as some of the stuff he wrote (most notoriously when he said that any letters about Israel signed by people with obviously Jewish names weren’t worth reading) is pretty open-and-shut - but he wouldn’t be my first choice of writer to cite as an embodiment of typical Guardian values. Not least because Ingrams himself would find the idea hilarious.

Django,

“fuck” is what happened to Aerial Sharon when he turned into a vegeable after murdering thousands of civilians, isnt it?

Brownie,

Your falling over your own arguments now. Palestine is not recognised as a state yet, GC does not apply. Israeli is, and so they do.

Oh come, Irene!

“fuck” is what happened to Aerial Sharon when he turned into a vegeable after murdering thousands of civilians, isnt it?

Yes, she definitely needs to have “fuck” explained to her.

Andrew Adams,
Thats exactly the argument used by the Israeli ambassador to the UN early today. I did say you guys are falling over your own arguments!

Hey Irene!

Your Boys are taking a Helluva Beating http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052549.html

Maybe you should go and march against Hamas playing “Doctors and Nurses” - and then using that opportunity to kill Gazans in their hospital beds as extra-judicial killings.

“fuck” is what 1 million Isrealies say when a home-made metal tube with some gunpowder is crudely lobbed into Israel and they all rush into shelters, thinking when will our terrorist government end the illegal occupation of Palestine, isnt it?

Your falling over your own arguments now. Palestine is not recognised as a state yet, GC does not apply. Israeli is, and so they do.

Hamas is the elected authority for a defined geographical region. Let’s get you on recrod: are you saying that the ‘rules’ do not apply to Hamas? That their actions are to be viewed through an entirely different moral prism? That locating rocket launchers at the back of a school, in a mosque or in an apartment block are just what we should expect?

Whay such low expectations? Is it cause they is Ay-rabs?

THIS IS GREAT, HOW MANY OF YOU ARE THERE TRYING TO TAKE ME ALONE ON?

and still your bleeding on real debate and failing to answer the real questions

“John and Jane had sex and then went to sleep”.
Does this mean John had sex alone and Jane went to sleep?

And you wonder why he rang you to tell you it was finished?

THIS IS GREAT, HOW MANY OF YOU ARE THERE TRYING TO TAKE ME ALONE ON?

Yes, it’s all guns blazing from my direction. But I know when I’m beat.

Goodnight, Irene.

Damn.

Gosh Michael you do sound a bit like Benji.

Yes Ingrams, not Ingram. Yes, he had a weekly column in The Observer for many years, so I think it was fair to consider him a guardian/observer journalist - but i really cant be arsed to go down the paid writer/contributor cul-de-sac.

Yes, I could name more current Guardian journalists I consider anti-semitic. Do you require that I do so?

Yes, it is possible Ingrams would find being called an anti-semite funny. I suspect though he doesn’t spend much time here.

Anyway, this whole thread has moved on now.

We have Irene entertaining us. He/she isn’t anti-semitic either, and quite possibly would find such an accusation funny.

I found him/her funny for an hour…but now this has all got a bit repetitive and tedious.

MattG

AS EXPECTED

Not one of you zionists gave an intelligent answer to the occupation ending, to the Protocols and to the reason why you try to stifle questions and debate on the Nazi Holocaust.

Not one of you. Pathetic.

I am still waiting for MoreMediaNonsense to tell us, related to the this thread, whether he took pictures of Jews for Justice for Palestine or the Neturei Karte at the protest in Trafalgar Square?

so if anyone alleges my views stem from anti-semitism, disregard my views. read these JEWISH views instead:
http://www.jfjfp.org/

yes the Huffington article totally fails to mention that during the “truce”, Israeli continued to conduct illegal incursions into Gaza,

Stoopid Bitch!

The truce started 19th June 2008. On 23rd June 2008 a mortar was fired from Gaza to Israel. Hamas broke the truce.

On the 24th June 2008 three rockets were fired at Israel from Gaza. The truce was broken even further.

Its a BIG lie to state that Israel had incursions during the truce since the Truce didn’t really exist after 23rd June. Its ONLY because Israel didn’t launch an attack at the Gazans on the 23rd June that you are able to pretend some truce has endured until very recently.

Now fuck off back to loony land with big hankies you will need as you weep at your Hamas being destroyed. Marvel as their leaders get killed. Whoop whenever an arms store blows up. Applaud as more Hamas cowards go in the queue for virgins. Now, there’s something useful you could do. APpear in their dreams and entice them towards you.

(This has been a deliberately offensive and shilling post because Irene made me do it)

Ok, lets forget the period of the truce. Change “truce” to say “since 1967…..”

still want to argue the facts about Israeli atrocities?

By the way. The Gazans

MattG

She meant “Hollow Cause” - and then she would be right. As Hamas take a real battering in a Mother of All defeats for Terrorists it just exposes how hollow their cause was. (past tense deliberate)

and if we go right to the root:

There were NO rockets on jews before the occupation and neither were there any suicide bombers.

Doesnt that say it all? Occupation of Palestine is the root cause of this conflict.

I will wait here for someone to tell me “But God gave Israel to the Jews 5000 years ago”!

I might as well say I “fucked” Santa Claus and flew to the moon on a pig!

Maven

‘Hollow cause’ was my point. But I think it went ‘whooooosh’ sailing overhead.

Irene wants to discuss the protocols and holocaust stats. Despite having been freely posting here for several hours she also feels she is being silenced. I wouldnt bother.

Gene correctly is allowing him/her to continue to post. In fact this has become one of the more edcuational threads from recent days (not up against great competition admittedly).

But…I think it has started to run its course.

MattG

Mave, you seem to glorify murder and destruction on an occupied people.

“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour.
That is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary.”
RABBI HILLEL

The Torah teaches: ‘Justice, justice, you shall pursue’ (Deuteronomy 16:20).
To secure a lasting settlement to the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis so they can live in peace and security, thrive side by side, and co-operate together, Jews today are obligated to pursue justice on behalf of both peoples.”

RABBI ELIZABETH TIKVAH SARAH

“Without justice for Palestinians, there is no hope for Israel.”
RABBI JEFFREY NEWMAN

Its now a soliloquy (you can look it up ‘Irene’)

It has indeed run its course.

As the Dragons say

Im out.

MattG

““I want to feel proud of Israel, I want to be proud of my people but I am ashamed.”
Alexei Sayle

Gosh Michael you do sound a bit like Benji.

I know, but given that you did actually have a strong case I found it amusing that the first name you cited didn’t actually fit the profile!

Yes, I could name more current Guardian journalists I consider anti-semitic. Do you require that I do so?

I don’t require that you do so, but you’d be most welcome.

Yes, it is possible Ingrams would find being called an anti-semite funny.

I actually meant that he’d find the idea of being a regarded as a typical Guardian writer hilarious. His rabid homophobia alone places him 180 degrees from the paper’s professed values.

1. Do you have a British passport?
2. Have you been to Israel to be trained as an occupation soldier?
3. Have you lived and worked in a settlement or kibbutz built on land taken from Palestinians in the last 42 years?
4. Have you shot Palestinian children in the head?
5. Have you manned Israeli checkpoints and prevented pregnant women and sick patients from getting to hospital?

Yes,

No, as Mossad psyops

I personally bulldozed some land I just happened to fancy. No-one there at the time they must have run away. One minute they were in front of me waving a nice Hi Mave! Next minute they had disappeared. Don’t ask me!

About ten or twenty. Didn’t really bother to keep count. Have I done something wrong?

Only pregnant women. They actually call me over when they have to deal with a pregnant woman. Always asking her “Is this the father?”

I figure joke questions demand joke answers. (Anyway, it feeds my darker side)

Alexei Sayle has called for the boycott of Israeli goods and withdrawal of the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv.

Is he an anti-semitc, holocaust denier who is a member of the Green or Socialist Workers Party?

Or he is a human being who cares about human life and justice for the occupied and oppressed?

i’m being blinded by your white flags.

post any more lies and nonsense, and i’ll be back ;-)

love you all

Irene

“fuck” is what Hezobollah did to the Israeli occupation soldiers in 2006, isnt it?

Nope that word is “kill”.

So, now we establish that the psycopathic Irene doesn’t know the difference between “fuck” and “kill”.

I just hope she doesn’t know the difference between ‘cancer’ and a “beauty spot”!!! -

( and I don’t mean the Sussex Downs but you can also take it to mean “that crater where there used to be a Mosque with a hidden missile store”)

Mave, you seem to glorify murder and destruction on an occupied people.

No point in quoting Rabbis at me cos I ain’t religious.

I do know that Israel taking out 50 Hamas sites with 60 planes in five minutes will go down in Military History as a great triumph of planning.

I do also know that the low number of civilian casulaties versus the scale of turning Hamas into forgotten mush is something we can all admire and in which I take great satisfaction from.

When this is over I might have a Farewell Hamas Party and buy the DVD.

What will you do? Seethe and try and work out why your “I want to kill you” opening line isn’t working? Get the Kleenex in babe. You’re going to need them.

LOL!!!!!!

(What a knebesh!)

spgb gray wrote:

(The belief by many on the Left that socialism existed in the Soviet Union is but one of those forces.)

Ah….the old Soviet socialism wasn’t real socialism canard.

Nick

it is not a cannard. The party I blong to, the Socialist Party of Great Britain was writing at the time why socialism was not on the cards in Russia. It wasn’t some afterthought, from the 1950s/60s.

But please, don’t let facts get in your way.

Nick

ps. You could also read some Lenin. The bits where he, in 1918, was saying state capitalism was a step forward for Russia. That was the economic policy adopted by “Soviet” Russia under Lenin; it was only under Stalin (and in the exiled polemics of Trotsky) that Soviet state capitalism was falsely named as socialist and socialistic.

If they “Are Hamas” Then wonderful. burn down England, please.

“Eurabia” however is totally true

HPhypocrite, we’ve taken on the “Eurabia” hysteria here many times.

The party I blong to, the Socialist Party of Great Britain was writing at the time why socialism was not on the cards in Russia. It wasn’t some afterthought, from the 1950s/60s.

Your lot seem to be Command economy, class obsessives. seeking Global Socialism - real, terribly old fashioned Leftists.

You base of self identifying ‘working class’ class obsessed people is shrinking in developed countries. A Political party with little history of success predicated on a Leftist - command economy - model, appealing to a shrinking potential base, doesn’t seem like much of a winner to me.

Indeed, the term ‘political dinosaurs’ springs to mind - but I guess I could have missed some hidden political competitive advantage that will yet bring about the Global ‘utopian’ Leftist workers collective.

I saw one of those Gaza Holocaust placards discarded on Whitehall today (next to a pair of shoes). They were sponsored by the GMB union - shame on them.

That “WE ARE HAMAS” banner: it’s hard to judge well given the resolution of the pic, but the two guys carrying it look like classic “Campus Islamists”. And I notice they are not really part of a group. Not that this excuses people marching alongside it, but it’s a bit different from middle-of-the-road lefties holding the same placard, isn’t it?

I invite you ALL on here abusing me to answer the following questions:

1. Do you have a British passport?
2. Have you been to Israel to be trained as an occupation soldier?
3. Have you lived and worked in a settlement or kibbutz built on land taken from Palestinians in the last 42 years?
4. Have you shot Palestinian children in the head?
5. Have you manned Israeli checkpoints and prevented pregnant women and sick patients from getting to hospital?

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No

What was the point of that, exactly?

Excuse me, but I thought in the English language the word “AND” meant together. — Irene

And before this post here’s what she wrote:

“They [Hamas] are terrorists as much as the British and French resistance fighting the Nazis on their own soil”

So it’s true? The Germans invaded the British Isles, eh Irene?

Nick

I am a stickler for precise definitions. Saying the SPGB stands for a command economy is wrong. The command economy is the state capitalist system of the former USSR and Eastern bloc states.

The political dinosaur epithapth is rather misguided ( a logical fallacy, dare I say) since I doubt you disregard ideas from people like Newton or Adam Smith.

Goodnight Irene

Try not to spend TOO much time in agitprop-land

Irene and Maven are opposite sides of the same coin.

They both make arguments and declare they’ve won all by themselves, no outside opinion required.

Talk about convergence of hard left and right

Has anyone told you lately, Irene, that you are mental?

That Irene is a classic - lets hope he/she pops up every time the Stoppers come on re Israel - it certainly shuts them up.

All we need to know now is how this specimen has been radicalised, and which other blogs it frequents. Could be very interesting.

Wow. 291 and counting. You can almost smell the hysteria.

Hey VP - did you read the stuff above by Irene, the Protocols quoting 9/11 inside job girl ?

We’re still not sure if he/she is for real - have a read and tell us what you reckon.

BTW you never did answer my question above :

“Hey TheIrie Gene didn’t put up my photo with the “End the Holocaust in Gaza” placard on it.

There were loads of those at the demo - you’ve admitted you saw them earlier (and you also agreed they were wrong - to be fair).

Sunny and VP - did you see that scummy stuff as well ? What do you think Jewish people think about that kind of s**t ?”

Anyone with any reasonable access to the web or other means of fact checking, who quotes the Protocols as truth, is a nutter and if she has done that then so is she. Haven’t read back, but that would be my stance. Albeit that you’ve rather asked me to make a statement of the obvious.

Re: “Holocaust in Gaza” placards, it’s not a slogan that I approve of (it’s a gross historical mis-comparison for starters, not to mention the potential to cause offence). However, do I think the people carrying them were de facto anti-semites? No. To be honest I very much doubt that most of them thought it through to that degree when someone said “want a placard” and they said “yes”.

Again, I would imagine that was obvious. I think you’re just pissed off that it was a big demo (I think far bigger than the figures you give), and that it didn’t turn out to be a hotbed of anti-semitism. Suck it up, guys.

“As a Sikh you’ve absolutely no stake in the Israel/Palestine conflict, ”

Yes, no stake in the Golden Temple when Indian Soldiers shot down thousands of Sikhs like Mongrel Dogs? Yet another example of our moral cowards at Westminster who allowed terrorists to use London as a base for the export of terror, except the chickens came home to roost.

“Anyone with any reasonable access to the web or other means of fact checking, who quotes the Protocols as truth, is a nutter and if she has done that then so is she. ”

The web is littered with blatant claims by zionists that the Protocols are a “forgery”.

I have yet to come across a single zionist who will answer the simple question: IF THE PROTOCOLS ARE FAKE, WHY ARE THEY ALL BEING PROVABLY ENACTED BY ZIONISTS?

As for the demo, it was against Israeli terrorism and the Gaza Holocaust. Why do you zionists always hide behind claims of “anti-semitism” whenever your pariah regime is criticized for war crimes?

Was the senior Israeli spokesman seeking to OFFEND jews when he referred to the Holocaust in Gaza?

“The more [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves,” Matan Vilnai told Israeli army radio.
http://arabist.net/archives/2008/02/29/bbc-israel-warns-of-gaza-holocaust/

Israeli Deputy Defence Minister Mata Vilnai was referring to the Holocaust in Gaza back in February 2008.

Why are you guys getting so worked up that the public are waving placards with the same 1 year on?

MoreMediaNonsense,

Again, why didnt you take any pictures of the Jews for Justice in Palestine and the Natueru Karte jews who were at the protest?

Alexi Sayle is Jewish. Is he “anti-semitic” for calling for a boycott of Israeli goods and for withdrawal of the UK Ambassador from Tel Aviv?

Oh, I am SO SORRY you guys, I didnt realise. Alexi Sayle didnt say those nasty evil things about Israel. It was a Hamas terrorist disguised as Alexi who fooled all the TV stations. HA!