Harry’s Place

The stoppers are haters to a man. They won’t care in the slightest that Israel sacrifices the lives of it’s fighting men and women to avoid civilian casualties.

Israel endangers her own sons to avoid palestinian casualties. Meanwhile, hamas works overtime to increase palestinian casualties, directly and indirectly. See this extract on internal bloodletting, hamas-style, as reported by the NYTimes. How many of the 450 palestinain casualties thus far were actually killed by their own?

No Early End Seen to ‘All-Out War’ on Hamas in Gaza
By ETHAN BRONNER and TAGHREED EL-KHODARY, NYT, 30 December 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/world/middleeast/30mideast.html?pagewanted=all

At Shifa Hospital in Gaza, the director, Dr. Hussein Ashour, said that keeping his patients alive from their wounds was an enormous challenge. He said there were some 1,500 wounded people distributed among Gaza’s nine hospitals with far too few intensive care units, equipped ambulances and other vital equipment.

On Monday, Dr. Ashour was not the only official in charge. Armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls. Asked their function, they said it was to provide security. But there was internal bloodletting under way.

In the fourth-floor orthopedic section, a woman in her late 20s asked a militant to let her see Saleh Hajoj, her 32-year-old husband. She was turned away and left the hospital. Fifteen minutes later, Mr. Hajoj was carried out by young men pretending to transfer him to another ward. As he lay on the stretcher, he was shot in the left side of the head.

Mr. Hajoj, like five others killed at the hospital this way in 24 hours, was accused of collaboration with Israel. He had been in the central prison awaiting trial by Hamas judges; when Israel destroyed the prison on Sunday he and the others were transferred to the hospital. But their trials were short-circuited.

A crowd at the hospital showed no mercy after the shooting, which was widely observed. A man in his 30s mocked a woman expressing horror at the scene.

Likewise,the only reason foreign journalists are not being allowed into Gaza is to safeguard them?

even if it endangers the lives and safety of Israeli soldiers.

Funny post, this. Despite constant complaints that we shouldn’t play the game of ‘proportional response’ or say much about the 400+ dead already… now Gene is trying to desperately convince his audience that the IDF is actually being nice by launching a ground operations because…. *shock horror* it is putting the life of soldiers in danger!! I thought the number of people being killed was irrelevant in all this? Or does that only matter when it comes to Israeli lives? I’m confused Gene, please enlighten me.

But, I do find it very amusing that a ground war, which will kill even more innocent civilians, is being justified by the view that we should be thankful that Israel is willing to put the lives of its own sons in danger. Better than chucking massive bombs on people in the hope it kills more militants than civilians guess. Thank god for small mercies eh?

I wonder if I should stop commenting at Pickled Politics. Several commenters seem to think I’m working for the Israeli government, and therefore not a word I say can be trusted.

Sunny, you moron, Israel could have made her country safe from Palestinian aggression decades ago if she were willing to be as brutal as her neighbors or as brutal as the US would be if pushed this way.

But Israelis do have very high standards, much higher than her enemies or than I do, to be honest.

Gene is accurately reporting the facts. That you don’t like it speaks to your will to hate.

Likewise,the only reason foreign journalists are not being allowed into Gaza is to safeguard them? I am against this. They should elect the senior man, Jeremy Bowen, to go in for them.

Well, let’s hope that the Israelis uses the Gaza advance also as a smokescreen to deliver the coup de grace to Iran’s nuclear ambitions, prior to President Obama’s arrival on the scene.

They have a legitimate right to defend themselves against the genocidal threat from both Hamas and Iran.

more pologies for the slaughter in Gaza from the far-right nationalist Gene.

Israel did not do anything to save any Palestinian lives, any “moderation” it shows is for political convenience.

There is no “saving ISraelis from rocket attacks” about htis.

ISrael has been placing Gaza under seige for 3 years and has starved itspopulation itno unimageinably brutal conditions.

It broke the current ceasefire in November, with Hamas only responding in self-defence.

it now uses this as an excuse to massacre the Palestinians andbreak any spirit of resistance they have left. the Israelis want a completely defeated nation,like any dictatorship wants.

but theywill not acheive it, these actions only wake up ore and more hatred in the world, and we willone day make these scum pay for their crimes.

also if Joshua Scholar, Apostate, Settler or acute Peronitis wish to reply to anything I say, Ipoint them to the arguments they lost in the “Hamas as a Political failure” thread and say they can reply tot hose before they move onto superficially commenting on some toher subject they do not understand or know anything of.

Sadly its inevitable. You cant stop home made missiles by bombing you have to occupy the ground they are fired from. I’ve no doubts about Israel’s right to take this action. But strategical I doubt how much it will achieve in the medium term. To repeat an old cliche ‘everybody knows what the solution to the problem is but nobody knows how to get there!!

Sunny,

Is any military action undertaken by Israel to defend its citizens legitimate in your eyes? Clearly air attacks do not meet with your approval, and neither a does a ground invasion.

What do you suggest?

Gene is reporting such facts as he chooses,and putting his own interpretation on those facts.He is also ignoring facts which do not support the interpretation he wishes to put forward.

also the lie of Israel minimising casualties is well exposed here:

What happened in the Dahiya quarter in Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired upon. We will apply disproportionate force upon it and cause great damage and destruction there,” he said. “From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases.”

“This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved”.

Discussing the plans, the International Law Observer commented:

Regional scholars working in the field of military strategy and national security have confirmed that the IDF is putting together a new programme for facing up to possible upcoming wars, whether with Lebanon, Syria or the Gaza Stip. The solution, as it appears, has come in the form of a “disproportionate eruption” through a newly acquired emphasis on air bombardment, where Israel plans “to act fast and with disproportionate force…in order to punish in a scope that would oblige long and costly reconstruction processes.”

http://leninology.blogspot.com/

My heart is with our soldiers. May they be succesful and may they all return safe home.

Gene, you are mad.

Sunny’s probably full of righteousness today having been flinging his hush puppies alongside Annie Lennox. To paraphrase the Israeli ambassador - shame he didn’t bother when Hamas were lobbing their 8000 missiles the other way.

Gene, maybe you could do a thread some time on the brilliant Israeli PR operation co-ordinated with action. Within 5 mins of troops moving that doll Libiewitz from the IDF command was on Fox and then Sky.

I watch Fox, CNN, Sky and BBC and Israel is winning this out of sight.
——
Just heard the Spanish Foreign minister has expressed support for the Palestinians.
——-
Galloway pulled from his Talksport so that Ian Collins is hosting a “Special”. Probably Talksport realise you can’t have Galloway offering a balanced news prog.

I agree with your sentiments Fabian, may the Ribono Shel Olam protect the soldiers and bring them all home safely to their families. And may peace come to all dwellers in Eretz Yisroel, Jew and Arab alike.

January 3rd, 2009

Statement by the Minister of Defence, Mr. Ehud Barak:

“A few hours ago, Israeli ground forces entered the Gaza Strip as part of operation Cast Lead against the Hamas terrorists and their affiliates and infrastructure in Gaza.

So far, the Israeli Defense Forces have dealt an unprecedented heavy blow to Hamas. In order to complete their mission we now launched the ground operation.

I have said all along that our military activities will widen and deepen as much as needed. Our aim is to force Hamas to stop its hostile activities against Israel and Israelis from Gaza, and to bring about a significant change in the situation in Southern part of Israel.

We have carefully weighed all our options. We are not war hungry but we shall not, I repeat – we shall not allow a situation where our towns, villages and civilians are constantly targeted by Hamas. It will not be easy or short, but we are determined.

We are well aware of the humanitarian aspect and are doing and will continue to do everything possible to provide all humanitarian needs to Gaza.

While we are fighting in Gaza, we keep an open eye on the sensitive situation in our northern border. We have no aggressive intentions there. We hope the situation there will remain calm; nevertheless we are ready and alert to face any unwarranted development in that area.

We are peace seekers. We have restrained ourselves for a long time but now is the time to do what needs to be done. We are determined to afford our citizens what any citizen anywhere in the world is entitled to – peace, tranquility and freedom from threats”.

I’m blocked in the Arab World, but maybe YOU can access this site.

My understanding is that the ground operation is to secure Hamas missile launch pads.

Some idiot from the Times is asking whether Israel’s response is proportional to stopping rockets. Doh!

Since Hamas have continued to fire rockets the answer must be No!

Sunny, you moron, Israel could have made her country safe from Palestinian aggression decades ago if she were willing to be as brutal as her neighbors or as brutal as the US would be if pushed this way.

Yes, we should be thankful Israel has nuked the Palestinians already! Then at least she’d have to admit to having them in the first place. Great logic there Josh. As I said earlier, thank god for the small mercies eh?

It broke the current ceasefire in November, with Hamas only responding in self-defence.

Rubbish. Hamas tried to build a tunnel into Israeli territory, the Israelis spotted it and destroyed it. Hamas violated the truce and Israel responded to neutralise the threat.

IDF Spokesperson

The ground assault is to be welcomed for no other reason other than it annoys Sunny.

Some idiot from the Times is asking whether Israel’s response is proportional to stopping rockets. Doh!

Since Hamas have continued to fire rockets the answer must be No!

Fabian do you have a brass neck to complement your rusty pig-iron heart?

Presumably you’re being figurative, Sunny. The US would not use nukes first, but we do have some awfully large conventional bombs we might use in response to rocket attacks. Daisy cutters anyone?

Sunny,

why not answer Yossi’s question:

“Is any military action undertaken by Israel to defend its citizens legitimate in your eyes? Clearly air attacks do not meet with your approval, and neither a does a ground invasion.

What do you suggest?”

It broke the current ceasefire in November, with Hamas only responding in self-defence.

Bollocks!!!!

Truce starts 19th June.

Hamas break truce 24th with a mortar and 25th with three Qassams.

Stop spreading lies.

Still you sidestepped my question. Why do you object to Gene pointing out the simple fact that Israel has high ethical standards in fighting. As I pointed out, higher than any Muslim country and higher than the US, or indeed all of Europe in every war I can think of.

ISrael has been placing Gaza under seige for 3 years and has starved itspopulation itno unimageinably brutal conditions.

Yeah right. There are people in places like Zimbabwe and the Congo who are suffering brutalities that the people of Gaza couldn’t imagine and they didn’t even vote for a terrorist organisation that plans to destroy a neighbouring state. Of course, their suffering can’t be blamed on Jews.

blablabla, in case you haven’t noticed, this is a serious issue, not a football match…

Interestingly, the government in Gaza is not suing for peace or pleading for a renewal of the ceasefire. They are rattling their sabres even louder and making it very clear that any ease-off by the Israelis will simply be an opportunity to regroup and renew hostilities. Why would - why should - the Israelis let them do this? It seems that thousands around the world want a halt to hostilities that the elected representatives of Gaza don’t want themseleves.

Do you mean slanging match?

“It broke the current ceasefire in November, with Hamas only responding in self-defence.”

Crude, unguided rockets are defensive weapons? Who knew?

Interestingly, the government in Gaza is not suing for peace or pleading for a renewal of the ceasefire.

Which proves that they know perfectly well what HP’s critics are lying about in this thread. They know that Israel will not do much damage.

Boy, that’s an unbiased, clear-eyed view you have there, Gene. As far as non-partisan analysis goes, We are the goodies and they are the baddies, so screw it - bombs away! is a new one on me.

After all, this isn’t the first time the Israelis have attempted to bomb terrorism out of existence, and I suspect it won’t be the last. I remember quite a few people telling you during the 2006 Lebanon attacks that the operation would kill hundreds and would likely make Hezbollah more popular. IIRC, you were spouting this Thank goodness the IDF shoots people with their best interests at heart stuff back then, too, but we still wound up with over a thousand dead Lebanese, a third of them children, and those Beirut terrorists would be ready for round two tomorrow.

I guess the question is, how many civilians maimed and killed is too many in pursuit of a plan that obviously won’t work, if it’s your pals doing it?

I suspect that Gene’s answer will be Exactly as many as are maimed and killed in pursuit of this hare-brained plan, and not one more.

Hold on, isn’t ‘la mano de d1os’ the chap that was threatening people with death last week (I seem to remember something about ‘toast’). La mano, could you clarify please? Are you intending to kill some people or are you cooking for us?

After all, this isn’t the first time the Israelis have attempted to bomb terrorism out of existence, and I suspect it won’t be the last.

Bombing it out of existence would work if the bomb was big enough, but what this post was actually about was Israel forgoing bombing and sending in ground troops. Never mind, remember there’s no military problem that can’t be trivially solved by a snarky statement on a blog. Too bad it never occurred to the IDF to end terrorism by hiring you!

Fabián from Israel, Amen and Amen.

spot the difference between the stories:

“Maven
3 January 2009, 10:21 pm

It broke the current ceasefire in November, with Hamas only responding in self-defence.

Bollocks!!!!

Truce starts 19th June.

Hamas break truce 24th with a mortar and 25th with three Qassams.

Stop spreading lies.”

“Apostate
3 January 2009, 10:17 pm

It broke the current ceasefire in November, with Hamas only responding in self-defence.

Rubbish. Hamas tried to build a tunnel into Israeli territory, the Israelis spotted it and destroyed it. Hamas violated the truce and Israel responded to neutralise the threat.”

Which is it?

Maven, are you saying that the obsessive anti-arab commenter Apostate would not know of a Hamas rocket attack?

Who is spreading lies?

“Yeah right. There are people in places like Zimbabwe and the Congo who are suffering brutalities that the people of Gaza couldn’t imagine”

A convincing defense of Israel: you manage to compare them favourably to Mugabe.

In any case you are wrong, 80% of Gaza suffers from malnutrition and 60% of children do, thanks to the seige the west has placedthem under for 3 years for voting to defend themselves from Israeli colonisation instead of voting to die quietly as is Israel’s planfor them under the “moderates” (traitors who Israel and the west sponsor to provoke civil war against free and fair elections, but who Israel’s brutality here in Gaza is weakening).

“and they didn’t even vote for a terrorist organisation that plans to destroy a neighbouring state.”

Unlike the Israelis.

“Of course, their suffering can’t be blamed on Jews.”

Plee do not associate all Jews with the terrorist state of ISrael, it is quite disgusting and anti-semitic. are not Jews even allwoed to distance themselves, because *you* decide they must be represented by Israel even if they do not want to be?

“After all, this isn’t the first time the Israelis have attempted to bomb terrorism out of existence, and I suspect it won’t be the last.”

The game, of course. is to attribute to an actor impossible goals, then doom him to failure.

Interestingly, Benny Morris is behind Israel this time:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5439608.ece

After all, this isn’t the first time the Israelis have attempted to bomb terrorism out of existence

The deadliest terrorist threat that Israel faced was suicide bombing from the West Bank, which Israel had successfully ended. Perhaps they’re a bit smarter than you think

“Crude, unguided rockets are defensive weapons? Who knew?”

one would tend to defend themselves witht he weapons at hand, no? I know that many here are idealists, but expecting someone to fight a war with weapons they do not have is a new extreme.

also Israel could choose not to send its poorest citizens and its most recent arrivals from the most discriminated parts of the world (i.e. the lowest rungs of Israeli apartheid society) to the borders with the Palestinian territories, and instead build them apartments in Tel Aviv. It could of course send its brave leaders to face Hamas and match their rhetoric. but instead it sends its poorest to the border towns to face the resistance to the war its own elite is waging unrelentingly. :(

Gang Rages in Golders Green attacking bystanders http://www.thejc.com/articles/gaza-gang-rampage-golders-green

A convincing defense of Israel: you manage to compare them favourably to Mugabe.#

You said the suffering in Gaza was “unimaginable”, moron. I pointed out people in other places are suffering far worse without having to “imagine” what it’s like.

Plee do not associate all Jews with the terrorist state of ISrael, it is quite disgusting and anti-semitic. are not Jews even allwoed to distance themselves, because *you* decide they must be represented by Israel even if they do not want to be?

I was associating Hamas supporters like you with Nazis who would like to finish the job that Hitler started by wiping the only Jewish state off the map of the world.

“also Israel could choose not to send its poorest citizens and its most recent arrivals from the most discriminated parts of the world (i.e. the lowest rungs of Israeli apartheid society) to the borders with the Palestinian territories, and instead build them apartments in Tel Aviv.”

Are basic facts so alien to your nature?

Like all countries poverty exists in Israel, and can be found, in Tel Aviv as well as in Sderot.

“la mano de d10s” is a parody of a socialist polemicist. If he didn’t exist, P. J. O’Rourke would have to invent him.

Hamas broke the truce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#June

I’m right.

Are basic facts so alien to your nature?

Always. In his every breath.

Maven, are you saying that the obsessive anti-arab commenter Apostate would not know of a Hamas rocket attack?

Of course I knew of them. I was pointing out that the alleged Israeli “violation” of the truce on 5th November was an act of self defence.

What I’d like to know, apart from the obvious politico-citizen disconnect, is why the European Parliament has been sending delegations to meet with such a manifestly Islamist organisation as the Palestinian Legislative Council?

A clean sweep of Brussels, Strasbourg and Westminster might not be a bad conclusion to Operation Cast Lead.

I hear that Gazans were warned by Israel to leave their homes, to reduce collateral damage.

Fabian - Amen v’Amen

one would tend to defend themselves witht he weapons at hand, no? I know that many here are idealists, but expecting someone to fight a war with weapons they do not have is a new extreme.

They could have put down their weapons when Israel withdrew in 2005 and lived in mutual peace. But like you, their Jew-hatred was too great.

RE: “voting to defend themselves from Israeli colonisation instead of voting to die quietly as is Israel’s planfor them under the “moderates” (traitors who Israel and the west sponsor to provoke civil war against free and fair elections, but who Israel’s brutality here in Gaza is weakening).”

Thank you for putting your cards on the table. Pal moderates are “traitors,” and pulling out of Gaza was “israeli colonisation.” Yes i certainly think the Israeli govt should be concerned about what folks like you think.

Oh by the way, where are those famous Zionist-slayers of Hezbollah. After their great victory, and all the “regrouping” the ceasefire it was supposed to allow them to do, one might have thought they could spare a rocket or two for their suffering brethren in Gaza. Maybe the communications array in Nasrallah’s bunker is broken, and since he dare not show his face in public for more than an hour at a time, he just can’t get the msg out.

The US would not use nukes first

Oh dear… that says all that needs to be said about your own knowledge of history Josh. Thanks for digging your own grave.

modernity - I don’t really try and spend much time on here answering stupid questions, or I’d waste my whole day.

In case it isn’t already obvious my answer is that a military response is not only futile, but counter-productive.

But I should perhaps respond best with a question: How many stupid people think that bombing and starving a community of people is the best way to win their hearts and minds for a peaceful solution?

Answers on a postcard…

“You said the suffering in Gaza was “unimaginable”, moron. I pointed out people in other places are suffering far worse without having to “imagine” what it’s like.”

yes, and apprently, the suffering of the Gazans is also “imageinable” to them, seeing as they are living in it. perhaps though the “unimageinable” was directed at the people likely to read the comment.

“I hear that Gazans were warned by Israel to leave their homes, to reduce collateral damage.”

and go where? was Israel offering refuge to 1.5 million Gazans? Were their uppets in the West Bank? Was Israel offering them a safe pasage tot he west bank?

I am pleased to see the intellectual quality of the opposition here.

“Like all countries poverty exists in Israel, and can be found, in Tel Aviv as well as in Sderot.”

Yes, like all countries poverty exists and in Israel and like all countries it is unjustifiable and should be counterposed to the elite’s claims to be “protecting ther citizens”.

Sunny, you moron, I mean they would not NOW use nukes first.
The word “idiot” doesn’t sufficient. Imbecile!

From the comments on the JC.com article:

I’m glad I no longer live in the UK. I feel ashamed at what’s happening there. The English let all these Pakistanis and moslems into the country. If that’s what they want, let them live with it. Kind of weird, since they’ve already suffered underground and bus terror attacks! Be it on them, then. Sharia law and all.

Irene Goldberg

Social justice?

Editting error, sigh. Your unbelievable denseness had me angry and typing quickly.

Jonathan: “I hear that Gazans were warned by Israel to leave their homes, to reduce collateral damage.”

Are you joking? I can’t tell.

I imagine we can expect more of Gene’s favourite brand of Jenin-style humanitarianism from the IDF:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/143/2002/en/dom-MDE151432002en.html

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-01.htm#P49_1774

“Yes i certainly think the Israeli govt should be concerned about what folks like you think.”

The ISraeli governmentis indeed very worried about its international image, and regularly sends supporters, paidfor by its embassies, to photograph, attack and persectue opposition, and spreaders of propaganda, around the world, as they do in my country. So I think indeed they are worried, if not, they would not be spending so much energy opposing their opposition around the world.

Postcard to Sunny, “try answering what’s posed rather than misrepresenting it. The question was why do you object to Gene accurately describing the situation?”

In case it isn’t already obvious my answer is that a military response is not only futile, but counter-productive.

What would your response be? Allow Hamas members to claim asylum in the UK? Send more taxpayers money by proxy of the EU to build more mosques and universities and schools to store weapons and indoctrinate people with hate?

“Yes, like all countries poverty exists and in Israel and like all countries it is unjustifiable and should be counterposed to the elite’s claims to be “protecting ther citizen”

Ah I see, dealing with a Marxist are we?

Governments around the world attempt to deal with the poverty in their own countries, Israel too, but the causes of poverty are multiple and no country on the face of the earth has totally succeeded in eradicating it.

To say that if poor people exist in a country, that it then has no right to claim that it is defending it’s people from groups who believe that death is the highest virtue, is the most empty and nasty argument I have heard in a very long time.

The world is full of useful idiots who spew out ridiculous words like disproportionate response.

Perhaps Israel should have responded in more a tit for tat fashion. Hamas launches a rocket and then Israel launches a rocket. That makes so much sense.

And the reality is that Israel does go to extreme lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Some people refuse to give any sort of credit for that action because if they do that, they might have to acknowledge that Israel isn’t the big bad bogeyman.

On a related tack, since so many of the terrorists wear civilian clothes it is sometimes harder to identify them as being terrorists. So it is entirely possible that the dead civilian count could be smaller.

Gene, it’s a good post, you forgot to add that, even if Israel keeps the number of civilian casualties to an absolute minimun, it will still be accused of perpetrating a massacre - just as, in fact, happened in Jenin.

Ah I see, dealing with a Marxist are we?

A very vulgar and stupid one, if you’re referring to le mano.

I imagine we can expect more of Gene’s favourite brand of Jenin-style humanitarianism from the IDF

Waseem, I’m sure the IDF could have done a lot of things different and better in Jenin, but the fact reminds that only a relative handful of civilians were killed in the operation. By contrast imagine the carnage if Israel had taken the easy way out by flattening the place from the air– as it could easily have done.

Hold on, isn’t ‘la mano de d1os’ the chap that was threatening people with death last week (I seem to remember something about ‘toast’).

He was referring to a pro-Israel counter demonstration in America whom he wanted the anti-Israel protesters to set them all on fire.

Niiice.

And from that report, before Amnesty are inevitably dismissed as Israel-hating Islington hippies:

“Israel has the right and responsibility to take measures to prevent unlawful violence. The Israeli government equally has an obligation to ensure that the measures it takes to protect Israelis are carried out in accordance with international human rights and humanitarian law.”

Did it?

[Javier Zuniga Amnesty International’s Director of Regional Strategy who entered Jenin refugee camp on 17 April 2002]:

“I have been in urban environments where house to house fighting has happened: Rwanda, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Colombia, and a city struck by a massive earthquake: Mexico city. The devastation seen in Jenin camp had the worst elements of both situations. Houses not just bulldozed or dynamited but reduced almost to dust by the repeated and deliberate coming and goings of bulldozers and tanks. Houses pierced from wall to wall by tank or helicopter gun ships. Houses cut down the middle as if by giant scissors. Inside, an eerie vision of dining or bedrooms almost intact. No signs whatsoever that that bedroom or dining room or indeed the house had been used by fighters. Gratuitous, wanton, unnecessary destruction. Children’s prams, toys, beds everywhere. Where were those children? I do not know, but I do know where the survivors will be in the future.”

Refusal to allow burial of dead or aid to wounded:
“After the first day those killed or wounded in Jenin and Nablus were left without burial or medical treatment. Bodies remained in the street as residents who ventured outside to collect or attend to the dead or injured were shot”

Widespread demolition of homes:
“more than 3,000 Palestinian homes were demolished.”

Denying humanitarian and medical aid from NGOs:
“Throughout the period 4-15 April, the IDF denied access to Jenin refugee camp to all, including medical doctors and nurses, ambulances, humanitarian relief services, human rights organizations, and journalists.”

Use of human shields:
“Numerous testimonies show that IDF units frequently forced Palestinians to take part in operations by making a Palestinian camp resident enter a house first and then search it; they also used Palestinians as “human shields” to shelter behind. IDF patrols blew open the doors of houses often without waiting to see whether those inside were going to open them. Houses were destroyed, sometimes without ensuring that the residents had left.”

“In Nablus, as in Jenin, the IDF frequently compelled Palestinians to participate in military operations, including as “human shields”. The IDF compelled Palestinians to scout areas to ensure safe passage of soldiers, to enter the homes of other Palestinians during military operations and as a first person through “mouse-holes” (the holes drilled through house walls by the IDF to enable them to move from house to house).”

Torture of detainees:
During their operations in Jenin refugee camp between March and June 2002, the IDF ill-treated and sometimes tortured hundreds of detained men mostly between the ages of 16 and 55.(7) The IDF announced that 685 Palestinians had been arrested in Jenin by 11 April. It appears that the only requirement for detention was gender, nationality, and age.(8) Men were separated from women, children and men over 55. They were stripped to their underwear, blindfolded and their hands were bound with plastic cuffs. Reports of ill-treatment were frequent and some said they were beaten; one detainee died as a result of these beatings.

Restoration of essential services (the IDF has already cut off electricity to much of Gaza):
“Repair crews had been subjected to IDF gunfire when they attempted to repair damaged cables.”

There’s more. But I don’t want to continue bombarding you with this anti-semitic, namby-pamby, Islamist-loving propaganda from one of the world’s most renowned sponsors of terrorism.

again i ask, why doesn’t hezbollah, so widely touted as the great victor over the IDF, help its fellow Arabs/Muslims in Gaza?

The answer is obvious: cause they’re scared sh*tless in their rathole bunkers.

Which is a damn good result of that war.

los manos is bullcrap wrote:

” … Israeli apartheid society … ”

Your brain is as atrophied as your so-called ‘manhood’.

South Africa was 6% white and all other ethnics had very limited
rights.

Israel is 81% Jewish and all other religions have complete freedom and
enjoy all the rights and privileges of the Jewish majority.

Do you have a clue as to who Reda Mansour might be? Besides
the Israeli Consul General in the Israeli Consulate in Atlanta. He
is, of course, and Israeli Arab who is fully defending Israels limited
response to thousands of Palestinian war crimes.

Are there any Jewish diplomats representing any Arab countries?

la mano de d10s is certainly an arsehole.

Yes, like all countries poverty exists and in Israel and like all countries it is unjustifiable and should be counterposed to the elite’s claims to be “protecting ther citizens”.

And communist and socialist countries are free from poverty and elites milking the system for their own ends.

Josh:

“Which proves that they know perfectly well what HP’s critics are lying about in this thread. They know that Israel will not do much damage.”

I agree with that assessment. Unfortunately the IDF will take losses during this, and the enemies of Israel will capitalize on this new “occupation”. And militarily it doesn’t look like a good strategy either, because ultimately there will have to be a withdrawal, and then Hamas will regroup. The whole thing will just kick off again.

I would rather they had answered every rocket with a missile or artillery shell. I know they are trying to distinguish between Gaza and Hamas, but Gaza voted for Hamas, they shield and nurture Hamas. And this way, that decision isn’t costing them anything, they don’t have to face the consequences of their actions.

Returning fire is much more politically defensible. And it leaves Hamas to deal with the population of Gaza, who would become increasingly hostile to them.

Are there any Jewish diplomats representing any Arab countries?

I believe there is one, a woman, who represents one of the Gulf states. If my memory serves me correctly she even has Israeli citizenship.

also Israel could choose not to send its poorest citizens and its most recent arrivals from the most discriminated parts

You stupid tit. Israel’s previous defense minister, Amir Peretz, lives in Sderot.

The legal doctrine of proportionality is quite simple really, though its application is in judicial review of government policy in peace time not war.

‘You do not use a mallet to crack a nut’

The rules of war are somewhat different but the perfectly legal aim of Israel a sovereign nation is to stop the daily attacks by missiles (10,000 over 8 years Hamas launched 84 on the 26th of Dec before israel engaged hostilities).

Now no-one who talks of proportionality or Israeli excessive force is even prepared to acknowledge the Hamas missile attacks (crimes against humanity) let alone put the necessary aim of stopping them into the equation.

No foreign government’s demands for Israel to show restraint should be acknowledged while they fail to acknowledge Hama’s terrorist actions and strategic aims.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and dismantled all its settlements as a unilateral act to test and engage with the land for peace process with the Palestinians, to move towards a two state solution.

A daily rocket bombardment from Hamas a clerical fascist regime that seeks the annhialation of Israel is what they have got in return.

The problem is rather the reverse in terms of proportionality, that Israel for moral and political reasons unlikely to exert sufficient force to eliminate the source of a daily threat to over 800,000 Israelis.

When seen in the honest light of these facts (rather than meaningless rhetoric about Israel vs the Palestinians), including the rather obvious fact that the Palestinian authority and Egypt are non-publically also hoping for the elimination of Hamas, the situation is rather different and cannot simply be shoe-horned into ready made slogans, as if israel had not withdrawn from Gaza.

And as for the humanitarian abuses that Israel is uniquely held to be responsible for in Gaza:

Gaza has two land borders and a coastal boundary.

Egypt has not been letting through humanitarian aid. Indeed the network of tunnels dug by Hamas into Egypt have not been used to supply needy gazans with medicines and food and fuel, but have been used solely to supply increasingly dangerous long range missiles on the international arms market and from third countries most notably Iran.

It is easy to see why Egypt is adopting a hands off approach as it is not in the interests of any nation that wishes to have stability in the region that this backyard conflict between Hamas and Israel, mutate into a fully fledged regional conflict.

So if anyone is really concerned about the prospects for long term peace between Israel and Palestine and the non-escalation into regional warfare involving Iran with the Arab world then we must hope that Israel succeed in its objective of eliminating hamas as a fighting force.

Behind the weasel words of condemnation of Israel and crocodile tears for the plight of the Palestinians, I would imagine that most Arab nation leaders believe that hamas has long outlived its usefulness and must be prevented from closer alliance with Iran at all costs.

The key to observing this realpolitik is to follow Iran’s political denunciations of Egypt.

Don’t expect to hear about it on the BBC in any depth however. The China news agency is providing quite good coverage of it however.

Gene: The IDF could have done a lot of things different and better with regard to civilians in virtually every conflict it has engaged in. I am not claiming they are worse than every other military that has engaged in counter-insurgency warfare. But comparing them to a strawman - what liberal democratic nation in the full glare of the media would flatten a civilian area on its own doorstep? - is propagandising.

I am sure the IDF will not be as brutal as the Syrian regime were in Hama. But that’s not the point. Yes, that is at least partly because of Israeli attitudes. But mostly, it is because it doesn’t need to be - it is not crushing an immediate existential threat - a mass uprising by its own citizens. And far more importantly, it CANNOT be as brutal as a dictatorship such as Syria, because it is fighting a media war almost as much as a shooting war. Its political will to sustain operations such as this relies heavily on the importance of keeping the US administration, and in long-run, on not overly alienating world opinion. That is why it cannot flatten Gaza, not because the IDF is on the side of the angels.

As repeated reports by internationally respected NGOs have shown, the IDF has not behaved with anything approaching the standards you claim it has. I don’t think the behaviour documented in the Amnesty or Human Rights Watch reports agrees with a view that its numerous abuses were accidents.

Gene

“The result was between 50 and 60 Palestinian deaths, almost all of them fighters (not the massacre of 500 originally reported and eagerly believed by so many)”

How is the death of 50 Palestinians not “a massacre”?
When 12 armed religious settlers died in 2002 Israel called it “The Sabbath Massacre”.

So Gene, how many Palestinians does it take to be killed for it to be a massacre? And how many Israelis?

sunny,

Yossi’s question goes unanswered, granted it is a difficult one:

“Is any military action undertaken by Israel to defend its citizens legitimate in your eyes? Clearly air attacks do not meet with your approval, and neither a does a ground invasion.

What do you suggest?”

but Sunny, suppose instead of Israel, another country was chosen? would the question still be as hard to answer?

viz. “Is any military action undertaken by India/Pakistan/China/Cuba to defend its citizens legitimate in your eyes? ”

is that easier? or do such questions become illegitimate when Israel is the country concerned?

well?

That is why it cannot flatten Gaza, not because the IDF is on the side of the angels.

Another reason, which you may not be aware of, is that Israel’s own population overwhelmingly would not stand for it.

“How is the death of 50 Palestinians not “a massacre”?
When 12 armed religious settlers died in 2002 Israel called it “The Sabbath Massacre”.

Because the 50 Palestinian civilians were not killed intentionally, many were killed as the terrorists in Jenin would not let them leave their homes, and many of the houses were booby-trapped, to maximise the deaths of Israelis soldiers.

RE: How is the death of 50 Palestinians not “a massacre”?

Ahem, when it occurs during the course of a — what’s that word — oh yes, “battle,” in which 23 Israelis also are killed.

That you cannot grasp this simple fact says pretty much all we need to know about you and your ability to process information.

Because the 50 Palestinian civilians were not killed intentionally, many were killed as the terrorists in Jenin would not let them leave their homes, and many of the houses were booby-trapped, to maximise the deaths of Israelis soldiers.

Yossi, it wasn’t 50 civilians, it was 50 Palestinians, most of whom were combatants.

Sunny is not particularly intelligent.

In any case. This is an interesting post (and discussion) by a legal theorist on the issue of proportion/legality in relation to Israel’s bombardment:

http://opiniojuris.org/2009/01/03/dershowitz-on-israel-and-proportionality/

I am going to be nice about Israel in the end, so I might as well get out of the way the fact that sending in ground troops in order to minimise the civilian casualties from aerial bombardment is the right thing to do, but hardly makes those who do it anything special. Troops are troops, and civilians are civilians.

Anyway, “Defensive, not offensive”, says the EU Presidency. Where does that leave either the Europhile Arabists or the Eurosceptical Zionists?

The State of Israel is a fact (though not the fact that its most stalwart supporters tend to assume), but the rabbis have been proved right for condemning Zionism as a form of idolatry, and my own views on the matter owe much to two of my most formative influences, my late father and my Senior Tutor (still very much alive) from my undergraduate days, who served together as young conscripts in British Mandated Palestine.

Ah, yes, young conscripts in British Mandated Palestine. Britain and the Zionists have history, you know… In the run-up to the 2005 Election, someone quite important said in my hearing that Labour and the Tories “were each led by their most pro-Israeli members”, Tony Blair (currently a roaring success as Middle East Peace Envoy) and Michael Howard. But that was before Gordon “The Chosen People” Brown (he needs to read some more proper Calvinism) and David “There Is A Deep Strand In Toryism That Believes Profoundly In Israel” Cameron (where to begin?) took the stage.

Cameron’s position is laughably illiterate. The only such strand in any of Toryism, Labourism or Liberalism is the one that believes profoundly in Britain. And insofar as there is any Zionist sentiment at all among Tories (which most Tory MPs and their bag-carriers cannot properly be called), then it dates only from Margaret Thatcher’s Brown-like theological confusions (she needed to read some more proper Methodism) and from the previous ownership of the Daily Telegraph by Barbara Amiel’s husband. As for Labour, it extended its whip to Robert Jackson in the Commons, and still does so in the Lords, after he left the Tories specifically because he did not want to be in a party led by a Jew.

In full communion with the Latin, Melkite, Maronite and Syrian Catholic Patriarchates, yearning that the Photian Schism be healed, moved by the history of the Armenians (there are many persecuted peoples in the world, and some of them are very easily identifiable, unlike others), and concerned for continuing orthodox witness within global Anglicanism and Lutheranism, I have at least eight reasons to have no more time for the Likud State than for Hamas.

But Hamas is the point. With a decided absence of Arab condemnation either from Fatah or from the Arab states that have in any case been dealing with Israel for years in practical terms, Israel is taking out Hamas in Gaza, and is now doing so by means if ground troops. Israeli ground troops have also been waging now quite a long battle against the recalcitrant West Bank settlers, who despise Israel but her happy to live on her largesse even while raining their hand’s against teenage conscripts, conscription from which they have secured exemption for themselves.

It is now for the world’s Jews (Gentile Zionists are probably an uncrackable nut, like non-Arab Arabists) to do as Fatah and the Arab states have done, and at least hold back from condemning outright the forced evictions from the West Bank, just as the Arabs have held back from condemning outright any Israeli action against Hamas.

2009 could be the year when Hamas and the Judean People’s Front/People’s Front of Judea are both taken out. The former by an Israel cheered on quietly (if that is possible) by the Arab world and loudly by the world’s Jews. And the latter by an Israel cheered on quietly by the world’s Jews and loudly by the Arab world.

That can only be a good thing for peace.

But only if both halves of it come to pass, at pretty much exactly the same time.

Gene

“Another reason, which you may not be aware of, is that Israel’s own population overwhelmingly would not stand for it.”

Is that the same Israeli population 46% of whom support the “transfer” (ethnic cleansing/genocide) of Palestinians from occupied territories or a different one ?

No doubt a similar proportion of Germans supported the transfer of German Jews and were shocked and appalled at what the Nazis actually ended up doing to them

“10/04/05 “Haaretz” — – Some 46 percent of Israel’s Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies’ annual national security public opinion poll.

In 1991, 38 percent of Israel’s Jewish population was in favor of transferring the Palestinians out of the territories while 24 percent supported transferring Israeli Arabs.

When the question of transfer was posed in a more roundabout way, 60 percent of respondents said that they were in favor of encouraging Israeli Arabs to leave the country.”

Gene:

I am aware of that. Hence I said “that is at least partly because of Israeli attitudes” and referred to Israel as a liberal democratic nation that does not operate to, and should not be held to, Syria’s standards.

hypocrite: what, no response to the battle — not massacre — of Jenin? I’m shocked, SHOCKED!

Yossi:

It was not like that:

“The fighting was the most intense between 3 and 9 April. The IDF broadcast calls to evacuate but many residents said that they had not heard or understood the call; others said that when they tried to evacuate they were caught in crossfire and took refuge in their own or other houses. At various times the IDF called by loudspeaker for all males between the ages of 15 and 45 to report. Many said they did not dare to leave their homes.”

Part of the reason many civilians were killed was clearly due to the IDF curfew which prevented them from leaving the area. Hence cases such as this:

“After the IDF closure and curfew were raised on 17 April 2002, they were repeatedly reimposed. In June, Dr Kathleen Cavanaugh, an international law expert and Amnesty International delegate, trying to carry out research in the few hours when the curfew was lifted, moved from house to house taking shelter and interviewing residents as she tried to investigate recent killings of children in Jenin during the curfew. As she was interviewing eyewitnesses the IDF killed another child breaking the curfew.”

Yes, many houses were booby-trapped. So in response, the IDF began destroying houses without checking whether civilians remained inside.

Gene: This claim: “It wasn’t 50 civilians, it was 50 Palestinians, most of whom were combatants” is only supported by the IDF, who claimed only 5 civilians were killed.

http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html

“…body counts and estimates of civilian casualties vary. Charles Kapes, the deputy chief of the U.N. office in the camp, says 54 dead have been pulled from the wreckage and 49 Palestinians are missing, of whom 18 are residents of the camp. Human Rights Watch says 52 were killed, of whom only 27 were thought to be armed Palestinians. The Israelis say they found 46 dead in the rubble, including a pile of five bodies that had been booby-trapped. Of these 46, say the Israelis, all but three were “fighters,” men ages 18 to 40. The Jenin Hospital, meanwhile, says 52 camp residents died, including five women and four children under the age of 15. Of the 43 dead men, eight were 55 or older and therefore probably not involved in the fighting. No matter whose figures one accepts, “there was no massacre,” concludes Amnesty’s Holley.”

“When the question of transfer was posed in a more roundabout way, 60 percent of respondents said that they were in favor of encouraging Israeli Arabs to leave the country.”

Firstly let me make it clear, I am against any sort of transfer, of Jews or Arabs.

Let’s look at reality, decades of fighting, in which thousands of Jews have been killed by Arabs sworn to their destruction. Hundreds of Israeli Arabs, rioting and protesting and killing in “protest” to Israeli actions. In such an atmosphere I think we might be able to understand why Jews in Israel feel they would prefer Arabs to leave.

Lets look at England. After the London bombings, I heard many genteel English folk, saying that Muslims should be kicked out of the UK and a total ban on Muslim immigration should be implemented. This after one bomb. Imagine if it there was an attack every single week!!

In wars and hostile lands, ethnic tension is a tragic reality, considering all this, Israel is doing very well in maintaining good relations between the majority of Jews and Arabs.

Yossi UK

“Let’s look at reality, decades of fighting, in which thousands of Jews have been killed by Arabs sworn to their destruction. Hundreds of Israeli Arabs, rioting and protesting and killing in “protest” to Israeli actions. In such an atmosphere I think we might be able to understand why Jews in Israel feel they would prefer Arabs to leave.

Lets look at England. After the London bombings, I heard many genteel English folk, saying that Muslims should be kicked out of the UK and a total ban on Muslim immigration should be implemented. This after one bomb. Imagine if it there was an attack every single week!!”

Yet despite far greater suffereing for decades at the hands of the state of Israel you freak out if any Palestinian says something negative about Jews and attribute it to anything but the actions of the state of Israel !!!

Hypocrite!!!

I beg your pardon?

I don’t freak out if a Palestinian says something negative about Jews at all. I understand that many of those comments are as a result of the endless conflict and an education that has been shaped by the conflict.

In your haste, to point out my hypocrisy, while ignoring your own, you attribute to me views that I do not possess.

YossiUK

“I beg your pardon?
I don’t freak out if a Palestinian says something negative about Jews at all. I understand that many of those comments are as a result of the endless conflict and an education that has been shaped by the conflict.
In your haste, to point out my hypocrisy, while ignoring your own, you attribute to me views that I do not possess.”

I apologise to you Yossi. Many zionists will try and portray negative comments Palestinians make against Jews (which I don’t condone any more than Israeli comments about Arabs or British non-Muslims about Muslims) as part of some inate anti-semitism/religous teaching rather than as a result of what the state of Israel has done to them.

They’ll even compare it with German views of Jews which is grotesque (since it implies that Jews hurt the Germans)

This site has degenerated into two rival groups of fans - one singing “you’re dead and you know you are” and another yelling “we only sing when we’re losing”.

How about somebody outlining what the end of all this is?

Because for me it looks like a lot of dead Hamas fighters and a much strengthened Hamas and an Israel that is still under rocket attack but with a fair number of its boys in body bags.

As for Iran - the problem is this: there is no surgical strike option that takes out their nuclear programme. If there was GWB would have used it and fair play to him if he did.

It’s a mess and I am afraid it is the Israeli government elevating tactics to the level of strategy - as they did in Lebanon.

This isn’t 1967 - the problem is not Arab governments in Damascus, Cairo or Baghdad but the fact that there are now more Arabs inside mandate Palestine than there are Jews. Assuming that nobody sane suggests either nuclear immolation or mass “expulsion” then both sides have to sit down and work out a two state solution and bloody soon.

The Palestinians elected Hamas because Fatah was corrupt, not because they became Islamists overnight.

HPh

Thank you for your apology.

I take the comments made against Jews by Palestinians on a case by case basis. There are many motivations behind why individuals make the comments they do.

I am non a Zionist by the way.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5439608.ece

Benny Morris in today’s Sunday Times: “Israel has no choice but to be tough on Hamas - and Iran”

I am in agreement with the previous poster

* er, I mean Fed up with it

Victory to the IDF!

Support Israel now!!

Oppose totalitarianism everywhere!!!

Benny Morris is right. No doubt it pains him to say it. Clearly a man interested in truth and peace. But he sees that Israel’s survival is at stake.

Who will shed a tear if Israel do the right thing and take out Iran’s nuclear facilities?

Israel’s willingness to sacrifice its soldiers’ lives to prevent Palestinian civilian casualties is a weakness in two ways: first, Israeli lives have been lost; and second, its willingness to spare its enemies civilians is both disrespected and exploited by the Arabs.

Israel’s willingness to sacrifice its soldiers’ lives to prevent Palestinian civilian casualties is a weakness

You’re wrong. It’s a strength.

HP Horsesh*t Hypocrite -

I didn’t know that anti-Jewish comments from Muslims and Islamic teachers only date from after the founding of Israel. Thanks for that information.

So if I go searching for such comments, I can be assured I won’t find any?

Shall I start with PBUH Mohammed?

Your right Gene, it is a strength

Michael Totten: “The American response to Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor went well beyond sinking an equal number of ships in a Japanese harbor, for instance. And European Jews certainly were not entitled to execute six million German civilians after the Holocaust.”

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/01/gaza-and-the-la.php

HP Hypocrite i have taken issue with lots you have written, even on this thread. But i appreciate your apology to Yossi. And i agree with him; i’ve always said that generally speaking, palestinian anger/mistrust/hate toward Israelis is nothing like Nazi hate, since, as you pointed out, the Jews did nothing to the Nazis, but they did do something to the Palestinians, which not even the most fervent zionist should overlook. That being said, Hamas/Hezbollah change the equation, as they bring in an islamist influenced Jew-hatred (pigs and apes, trees, rocks, etc.) that wasn’t there before.

anyway, your apology to yossi puts you miles ahead, not only of the racist Hasbara Buster but also of the reflexive lefties like Penny Pemberton, Flanker etc.

I still will take big issue with what you say, but with more respect. cheers.

field

“I didn’t know that anti-Jewish comments from Muslims and Islamic teachers only date from after the founding of Israel. Thanks for that information.

So if I go searching for such comments, I can be assured I won’t find any?”

If you go searching for something you can pretty much find anything you want

If I went searching for anti-Arab/Gentile comments from Jews and Jewish teachers from before the Nakba could I find them?

If you look at the Quran you find passages criticising Jewish people for their actions. You will also find verses criticising Muslims for their actions. There are also verses praising Moses pbuh (who is mentioned more than any other prophet) and Jewish people for their actions.

Is There Anti-Semitism in The Qur’an?

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/is_there_anti_semitism_in_the_quran/

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/310/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/372/

If youre looking for a book containing some very strong anti-Jewish invenctive Id recommend the Torah

Field and HP, I don’t think we need to go dredging the Holy books of Islam and Judaism to find negative quotes.

This is one the problems with the whole Israel/Palestine issue, in that the conflict expands and expands.

Yes this conflict has a history, and has a cultural and religious dimension, but we have to focus on how to solve it now, in the present.

Gene is now resorting to moral relativism. Israel’s actions are not as bad as Grozny. You don’t know how bad that sounds.

As far as Jenin goes, I presume you are quoting the UN report that said 52 Palestinians were verified killed with up to half being civilians. The report also said war crimes took place. Human Rights Watch said no massacre took place but accused the IDF of committing war crimes. Amnesty International said that there was clear evidence that the IDF committed war crimes.

You declare Israel’s forces as heroes for sacrificing itself, apparently, to save Palestinian lives. In other words they could have implemented more widespread killing of Palestinians if they wanted to, and saved more Israeli lives. You don’t mention that these heroes have already been accused by three separate bodies of committing war crimes.

Moreover Israel refused a UN fact finding mission (unanimously approved by the UN), despite Shimon Peres saying they would welcome one, and despite pressure from the US.

“As far as Jenin goes, I presume you are quoting the UN report that said 52 Palestinians were verified killed with up to half being civilians. The report also said war crimes took place. Human Rights Watch said no massacre took place but accused the IDF of committing war crimes. Amnesty International said that there was clear evidence that the IDF committed war crimes.”

Forgive me, but has there been a war in modern times that has not contained war crimes according to those organisations?

Gene is now resorting to moral relativism. Israel’s actions are not as bad as Grozny. You don’t know how bad that sounds.

And apparently Benji doesn’t know what “moral relativism” means as it’s commonly connoted. Benji is now, objectively and officially, morally retarded.

Where does that leave either the Europhile Arabists or the Eurosceptical Zionists?

What about Eurosceptic Arabist Zionists? Do they get any say?
One can be an Arabist and a Zionist, David. They’re not mutually exclusive.

“South Africa was 6% white and all other ethnics had very limited
rights.

Israel is 81% Jewish”

but yet it is committed to a Jewish majority while 5 million Palestinians live in forced exile, so how is this not apartheid. It also does not give demcoratic rights to the Palestinians livingunder its occupation.

also “mano” has ntohing to do with “manhood”, so WTF are you talking about?

cannot a single “funny” reply here manage to insult me in correct Spanish?

“Do you have a clue as to who Reda Mansour might be? Besides
the Israeli Consul General in the Israeli Consulate in Atlanta. He
is, of course, and Israeli Arab who is fully defending Israels limited
response to thousands of Palestinian war crimes.”

Yes, and there were high ranking african americans in the US state while segregation still existed in the south. So?

“You stupid tit. Israel’s previous defense minister, Amir Peretz, lives in Sderot.”

Impressive. Oneformer minister lives in Sderot, and therefore this negates the fact that Israel disproportionately places its poorest citizens in the most dangerous towns, and that the Israeli ruling class disproportionately sends others to fight.

Maybe you could post a photograph of this friend’s house, and we could compare it to the average resident of Sderot-security facilities included.

“Governments around the world attempt to deal with the poverty in their own countries, Israel too, but the causes of poverty are multiple and no country on the face of the earth has totally succeeded in eradicating it.”

Ah I see, poverty is the result of natural scarcity…hmmm…sure? is this why governments and businesses have to actively destroy productive forces regularly and actively deny people having access to services they enjoy previously? Is this why the global population suffers hunger while the productive capabilities exist to easily eed it?

Or maybe poverty falls from the sky somehow, and neoliberal Israeli governments who private public services and state companies, restrict workers rights, and impose austerity measures, while subsidising the private sector, giving tax cuts to the super rich, and spending billions on the war machine, are trying their best to end povety but just do not know how.

“To say that if poor people exist in a country, that it then has no right to claim that it is defending it’s people from groups who believe that death is the highest virtue, is the most empty and nasty argument I have heard in a very long time.”

If Israel wanted to defend its citizens then it would stop waging endless war on the Palestinians and stop exploiting its own working class.

and also, it is “la mano”, not “los manos”. it means “hand of God”, which is a homage to someone the racists, elitists and right wingers in the whole world hate :)

Shmuel

Well, I have heard commenters saying Israeli actions are less destructive than the carpet bombing of Germany or the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima, and now not as bad as Grozny. It’s seems a bizarre state of affairs when larger mass killings are used in an attempt to portray Israel’s actions in a better light.

Gene also says that Israel’s forces “sacrificed the lives of its own sons to avoid massive casualties among Palestinian non-combatants”. It gets more bizarre. When Israel suffers casualties on the battlefield, these are munificent “sacrifices” to the Palestinians to save their lives, and the Palestinians should be grateful they were simply not flattened without an Israeli lives being lost. The notion of sacrifice suggests a conscious decision on the part of the IDF to fight that way, and lose their own soldiers, to save Palestinian lives, with a viable alternative being at hand. It was bravery, munificent. However, if they were simply working within Israeli law, and their own rules of combat, this seems normal, and it is less of a generous “sacrifice” beyond the normal.

also he is talking crap, because any “moderation” ISrael shows is to limit the political damage to its allies in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. who may well face mass revolts if Israel went as far as Gene threatens they could (if Palestinians are not sufficiently “grateful”),and strengthen pro-palestinian forces in those countries, as well as htose in its imperialist allies.

Really Gene probably knows this and is simply a propaganda machine just like any mediocre political clone hitting out the philistine line of some dictator or another. it could be Stalin (who the ofunder of this site deicated his life to defending, according to wikipedia), Pinochet, apartheid South Africa, or US or Israeli imperialism, the repetetive and vulgar slander is very similair.

le mano de dios: take your marxist analysis and blow it out your ear. As a western democracy, Israel does not “place” poor people anywhere, nor does it “exploit its working class,” though perhaps some of its employers do, as they do in any western country. Immigrants may be settled somewhere but have complete freedom of movement after that, depending, of course, on their circumstances. I don’t give a rat’s ass about your marxist analysis of poverty and I doubt anyone else besides those in your cadre do either, comrade, and I say this as a social democrat whose Bundist (i.e. social democratic) father and grandfather were sent to the gulag by good soviet marxists. Isn’t all that rubbish appropriately in the dustbin of history. If not it should be.

“Isn’t all that rubbish appropriately in the dustbin of history. If not it should be.”

I agree it should be, but sadly it isn’t , it was all over the streets of London yesterday.

Benjamin doesn’t know what “moral relativism” means.

vildechaye thank you for your kind words. The credit should go to Yossi since he brought decency and civility which was missing from many of the posters including myself (and some thread authors)

“That being said, Hamas/Hezbollah change the equation, as they bring in an islamist influenced Jew-hatred (pigs and apes, trees, rocks, etc.) that wasn’t there before.”

I dont think religion is the problem (nor is it necessiraly the solution) since it can be interpreted to say pretty much anything. So Judaism can be interpreted to say that Israel shoul control all of Palestinian land and also that of neighbouring countries or that it shouldnt control a single inch. Islam can be interpreted to mean no Palestinian land can be given up or that the whole of it belongs to the Jews (and note “Muslim Zionism” is as accepted amongst Muslims as Neuterei Karta are amongst Jews).

Iran and Saudi both call themselves Islamic states. One opposes Israel the other calls for the whole Muslim world to recognise it.

To argue that Islam is implacable hostile to Judaism is simply a lie as is to say the reverse. If it were it would be forbidden to trade with Jews or to marry them (the only non-Muslim a Muslim can unequivocally marry is a Jewish woman) eat their slaughtered meat (the only meat of other religions a Muslim can eat is kosher). For a Muslim to speak ill of Moses or Abraham or any other prophet that Jews believe in is an act of kufr which makes a person non-Muslim.

Since Judaism is a monothiestic religion Islam respects it. If there is to be peace long term in the region the only way is justice for all and to emphasise the similiarities between the peoples there and their religions and also that they have lived in co-existence.

Israel is not going to disappear but neither are the Palestinians.
The Muslims are not going to leave Islam en masse nor are the Jews going to convert to Islam.

HPh,

Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.

I feel that what you are saying is that ultimately there is nothing intrinsic in Israelis and Palestinians, or in Judaism and Islam that prevents peace from being accomplished.

If this is your view, then I agree.

“I don’t give a rat’s ass about your marxist analysis of poverty and I doubt anyone else besides those in your cadre do either, comrade,”

actualy my party has over 1000 active members, 40% industrial workers, 60% workers, and over 100 base trade union delegates (elected workers who represent their colleagues), and we are growing fast whether or not you like it, more nadmore people in this region are turning towards the far left due to 30 years of failed neoliberal policies. we are larger proportionally than the bolsheviks were in 1905 and so is the left in most countries. in the coming years it will onyl get easier for us and even todya I would say we have an audience about 10 times larger, due to the crises, thanwe did 6 months ago.

“and I say this as a social democrat whose Bundist (i.e. social democratic) father and grandfather were sent to the gulag by good soviet marxists”

well they also did this to trotskyists. what is your point?

“Isn’t all that rubbish appropriately in the dustbin of history. If not it should be.”

apitalism should be. any system which enters into 3 global crises in 80 years, with the 3rd one being a result of the removal of the limits placed after the third one hwich had to be removed because these imtiaitons caused the second one, is not a rational system.

“YossiUK
4 January 2009, 1:44 am

Field and HP, I don’t think we need to go dredging the Holy books of Islam and Judaism to find negative quotes.

This is one the problems with the whole Israel/Palestine issue, in that the conflict expands and expands.

Yes this conflict has a history, and has a cultural and religious dimension, but we have to focus on how to solve it now, in the present.”

Er - it’s not at all difficult.

Hamas stop lobbing rockets and do everything in their power to stop Islamic Jihad and others lobbing rockets from Gaza to Israel.

Then Israel will leave them alone.

Peace.

See? Not that difficult.

I don’t think Israel are sending in ground troops to save Palestinian lives. They wouldn’t have bombed from the air for a week if that was the case. They’ve simply run out of targets and need ground troops to find these tunnels and bunkers where Hamas are moving weapons and missiles around. And they also know a lot of Hamas fighters will fight to the death, and thus they will be able to take a lot of them out by going in and confronting them.

I expect Israel will have some success with this - unlike Lebanon, the Gaza strip is almost completely defenceless and will be easily overrun, which is why Israeli commanders were urging the political leadership to allow them to restore the IDF’s reputation by routing this easy target. The question is, will the carnage have been worth it in the long run? I strongly suspect not. It was previous raids like this against the Palestinian Authority that strengthened Hamas in the first place and put them in power - such a large scale assault will merely shift Palestinian opinion further to the right, and Hamas will entrench their control.

I’m all for military action for a real purpose - such the operation to take back Falluja and save Iraq as a nation state. But I just don’t see how this is anything like this. Indeed, if the US was still in Iraq in 35 years and was thinking short term military operations were necessary, rather than doing real deals and trying to work through the political process, then I’d oppose that too. But the yanks wouldn’t be that stupid.

Yet despite far greater suffereing for decades at the hands of the state of Israel you freak out if any Palestinian says something negative about Jews and attribute it to anything but the actions of the state of Israel !!!

Hypocrite!!!

Er no. What freaks me out is Arafat and Hamas trying to mold society into a vehicle for genocide in the future (note genocide means killing everyone one, which is worse than ethnic cleansing which means driving them away).

I think deliberately teaching children to hate is almost the worst crime imaginable.

But teaching them to commit suicide is even worse.

And teaching them to commit suicide and mass murder at the same time IS THE WORST CRIME IMAGINABLE.

For some years they’ve had a music video idolizing a child who is going to die killing the jews. He writes a suicide note… This was on Fatah controlled TV. And so on and so on.

…
HPHypocrite, you’ve sounded insane all day long, with your hysteria that we are calling some people antisemites. I feel sorry for you.

“I’m all for military action for a real purpose’

A serious discussion of pros and cons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/weekinreview/04myers.html?hp

Knee-jerk Israel critics, don’t bother.

The question is, will the carnage have been worth it in the long run? I strongly suspect not. It was previous raids like this against the Palestinian Authority that strengthened Hamas in the first place and put them in power - such a large scale assault will merely shift Palestinian opinion further to the right, and Hamas will entrench their control.

No, when this is over, if it isn’t handled incompetently, Hamas will be seen as a failure, and Hamas’ policy (of attacking Israel) will be seen as provoking a disruptive response.

And if Hamas is knocked down from their totalitarian control over Gaza then there will be room for a saner political process to start.

No, when this is over, if it isn’t handled incompetently, Hamas will be seen as a failure, and Hamas’ policy (of attacking Israel) will be seen as provoking a disruptive response.

And if Hamas is knocked down from their totalitarian control over Gaza then there will be room for a saner political process to start.

Lots of ‘ifs’ there. Israel will not be able to dislodge Hamas because, like it or not, it has some support and roots. There is nobody to take its place in Gaza right now, at least not democratically - how much credibility would a corrupt Fatah have being installed by Israeli guns and tanks? What happens when elections take place to fill the bombed out parliament building? Who bans Hamas, or any other party that takes its place? I see a lot of militarism by Israel right now, but not much thinking beyond that.

You know if all of the leaders of Hamas are in exile then someone else will have to come into the vacuum.

“also Israel could choose not to send its poorest citizens and its most recent arrivals from the most discriminated parts of the world (i.e. the lowest rungs of Israeli apartheid society) to the borders with the Palestinian territories”

It is called “populate the whole territory”. Remember the Far West? Too bad the USA did not choose to build appartments in New York for all its immigrants, instead of sending them in caravans West to create a great country.

“I’m all for military action for a real purpose - such the operation to take back Falluja and save Iraq as a nation state. But I just don’t see how this is anything like this” (Mike)

We had to destroy Fallujah to save Falluja.

“It is called “populate the whole territory”. Remember the Far West? Too bad the USA did not choose to build appartments in New York for all its immigrants, instead of sending them in caravans West to create a great country.”

And the Palestinians in this vision would be the indigenous people of the US.

hmmm. no wonder they resist then if Manifest Destiny, the genocidal and expansionist doctrine, if the model the Zioists have in mind.

Still I am glad you used this example because I will point to it every time this site claims that Israel’s intentions are peaceful. silly Fabian you said the things out loud hwich Gene wants to deny.

Also you are a friend of the site so this is golden :D comment saved.

oh yes and “como a los nazis, te va a pasar, adonde vayan los iremos a buscar.”

I am going to march outside the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires in an upcoming date, please if you have any friends liek you, send them, I know what to do with fascists.

Hey Manuela, it’s Hamas that’s pushing Manifest Destiny.

And don’t fool yourself, you’re a fascist too.

Yeah why don’t you carry your “we are all Hezbollah” sign outside the remains of the Jewish cultural centre in your town. :)

And I guess we’ll have to see where your silly little quasi-Marxist party is in 5 years time and how capitalism is doing. all the crisis means is that some social democracy needs to be brought back into the system. Never heard of people voting with their feet to live in a Marxist paradise, and i doubt i ever will.

“vildechaye
4 January 2009, 6:39 am

Yeah why don’t you carry your “we are all Hezbollah” sign outside the remains of the Jewish cultural centre in your town. :)

And I guess we’ll have to see where your silly little quasi-Marxist party is in 5 years time and how capitalism is doing. all the crisis means is that some social democracy needs to be brought back into the system. Never heard of people voting with their feet to live in a Marxist paradise, and i doubt i ever will.”

Wht a stupid comment! read the “Hamas as a poltiical failure” thread for a more detailed destruction. for now let’s just say that to overcome the last crisis of the current proportions, was required a decade of Great Depression, the rise of fascism, and a world war.

The last global crisis 73-75 required the brutal defeat of trade unions, protectionism and the welfare state int he imperialist and semi-colonial world, i.e. the destruction of the gains of social demcoracy.

So this crisis is not going to be resolved with “a little bit of social demcoracy”, unless you consider massive unemployment in the first world and mass starvation in the third world “social demcoracy”.

also it is funny you would call a party “silly” and “quasi marxist” without knowing it’s name. This doesn’t really make me take your insult very seriously, you just look like what Chomsky called those apologists of capitalism whose only intelelctual weapon left is to “denounce the act of heresy itself”, placing below even medieval christians who felt obliged at least to try to engage point by point with anti-christians and disprove each point on its own terms.

intellectual decadence of a decadent system, sad to view.

With any invasion, and this is an invasion you have to look at the results at the end.
1. Strategic
2. Moral
3. Political
Strategic
This invasion will have very little value. As you know they kill a few Hamas fighters and leaders, but they will be easily replaced. Capture a few rockets and ditto.
Hezbollah for example is now up to full military and political strength.
Moral
This is illegal by international law. Does Israel want to be allied with countries such as China? Also Nazi Germany used similar arguments when they invaded the certain countries. Such as our people are under attack, we must protect them.
Political
The Labor minister of defence, who is a moderate and I quite like, wants to show that he can be a hawk and this maybe one reasons for invasion. There is an election around the corner.
Keeps blood lust right wing Hawks like Gene and David T happy.
Will keep HAMAS in power. Perversely Israel needs this organisation to be in power. This allows Israel to obtain more military aid from the US if they have a bogeyman. Remember it was Israeli secret services that set and supported HAMAS in its early stages to undermine FATAH.

oh you don’t take my “insult” seriously i’m devastated. Blah blah blah from the Marxist, but i like these bits:
“let’s just say that to overcome the last crisis of the current proportions, was required a decade of Great Depression, the rise of fascism, and a world war.”

Before you get too gleeful about the current economic crisis, let’s see if it ever even approaches the level of the great depression. so far, not even close.

“The last global crisis 73-75 required the brutal defeat of trade unions, protectionism and the welfare state int he imperialist and semi-colonial world, i.e. the destruction of the gains of social demcoracy.”

This is outrageous anti-historical nonsense you can probably only find in Marxist university journals where everybody has their head in their ass. The global crisis of 73-75? I must have missed that even though i lived through that time. Maybe he means the rise in oil prices, yes, quite the “crisis,” in historical terms, doesn’t even rate…”led to the brutal defeat of trade unions (where: certainly not in my country, and certainly not in the mid-70s. Reagan and Thatcher didn’t get in till 81 and 79, and even then, where is this “brutal” repression of unions he’s talking about… PATCO in the states (though they supported Reagan), and the coal miners in Britain is the most “brutal” repression, and that’s using the term quite liberally. ….”destruction of the gains of social democracy….. even now, Canada, Europe and even the U.S. retain lots most of the welfare state apparatus, and what was taken away hardly qualifies as “destruction,” which should be obvious to anyone with a sense of history, unless you’re a university marxist with your head firmly up your ass.

Viva la revolucion
“

I like this one from dim pierce:

“Hezbollah for example is now up to full military and political strength.” Yes the great victors of 2006 are so powerful they have been aiding their fellow clerical fascists by hiding in their bunkers, hemmed in by UN forces stationed their after their great victory, fearful of another Israeli attack, with their leader scared to show his face.

That’s fuill military strength for you. As for political strength, yes they are politically strong enough to strong-arm the weak central govt of lebanon which they have done the most to undermine.

Wishful thinking is no substitute for reality.

Benji the lefty liar says: What happens when elections take place to fill the bombed out parliament building?

Hamas will be disqualified from running - cause they terminated democracy when in power.

How difficult is that for you to understand? Why would Liberalism entertain its own demise?

BTW, you never provided sources to your claim that “Israel is targetting hospitals”.

gev pearce: Remember it was Israeli secret services that set and supported HAMAS in its early stages to undermine FATAH.

This is the same idiotic lefty logic that since CIA funded Islamist attacks on the Soviet invaders in Afghanistan, then CIA is now in bed with the Talibans (and presumably financing the Taliban to kill American soldiers).

Funny how post-colonial lefties are bereft of a functional brain.

“And the Palestinians in this vision would be the indigenous people of the US.”

Since when Sderot, Kiriat Malachi or Yeruham were populated by Palestinians?

la mano dildos: Capitalism …. is not a rational system.

It never claimed to be. Competitive capitalism is far superior to a rational system. Capitalism is an empirical system. That is, the truth is in the (open) market.

Now if you dont understand why rationalism is inferior to empiricism and empiricological reasoning, go and read David Hume, and stop this ideological nonsense parrotting failed and reactionary leftists.

You must certainly ignore all about the demography and geography of my country, “la mano de dios”. Soccer does not replace a good history book.

Yo que vos, la mano de dios, primero hago funcionar correctamente un comedor popular, antes de meterme a discutir sobre lo que no sé, en un blog inglés. Estoy seguro de que tenés ideas muy novedosas sobre el capitalismo e Israel, pero mejor, primero andá a reclutar a la villa.

Hamas will be disqualified from running - cause they terminated democracy when in power.

Who and how will they be disqualified, and what happens when another party takes their place?

you chose the wrong person to say that to, the party I am in does not run comedores populares or manage panes asistencia, we are the only large party on the argentinean left that doesn’t. we instead have been implanting ourselves int he organised working class for many years, and now have over 100 base delegates, lead in an occupied factory, and are 40% industrial workers and 60% workers out of over 1000 active members, with no piquetero wing.

try again.

I will not tell you which party as the less information the far right like you have, the better. however if you can work it out, congratulations.

“Since when Sderot, Kiriat Malachi or Yeruham were populated by Palestinians?”

eh?

you want to send the colonizers to reach out and keep expanding, like the American west, you admitted it, here:

“Fabián from Israel

4 January 2009, 5:29 am
“also Israel could choose not to send its poorest citizens and its most recent arrivals from the most discriminated parts of the world (i.e. the lowest rungs of Israeli apartheid society) to the borders with the Palestinian territories”
It is called “populate the whole territory”. Remember the Far West? Too bad the USA did not choose to build appartments in New York for all its immigrants, instead of sending them in caravans West to create a great country.”

do not try to back away now fachito! you already made clear what your plans for the Palestinians are.

and the rpely to vildechaye is awaiting moderators approval, probably for having many links.

Having just glanced at the BBC HYS, (and needing a bath after wallowing in so much ignorant hate), I came across this little gem,

“in 1939 the nazi created ghettos,starved the jews and mass murdered them.
Israel also created ghettos,starved the palestinians,degrade them of any sort of Humility and Dignity and kill children.
I see no difference between now and 1939.
Israel forgot its history,we haven’t.
Ask your parents or grand-parents to tell you and what they think about it?
I bet they will be like the rest of us:Ashamed and disgusted.

ciaran, london ”

I pray that the day soon comes when people like this Ciaran truly are ashamed, for their simply evil use of the Jewish victims of Hitler’s genocide to defame and demonise Israel, a state created by many of the surviving relatives of those aforementioned victims.

“I will not tell you which party as the less information the far right like you have, the better.”

You do well. I shudder for the day that you come out of the shadows to take the Pink House with your 100 base delegates. Oh, the horror!

“you want to send the colonizers to reach out and keep expanding, l
like the American west, you admitted it, here:”

I don’t think you understand English, so I will explain it to you in Spanish.

Los pueblos de frontera israelíes están dentro de Israel, no en los territorios. Yerucham, Sderot, y Kiriat Malachi, pueblos de los que seguro en tu vida escuchaste hablar, están dentro de Israel, en el borde del desierto. Nunca hubo palestinos allí. Esos pueblos fueron fundados por los israelíes para poblar las fronteras con Egipto y Jordania, como, por ejemplo, Bariloche fue fundada para poblar la frontera con Chile (pero en Bariloche sí vivían indígenas).
Yo no he “admitido” que somos expansionistas. Todo lo contrario. Cientos de pueblos fueron fundados en 1948-1953 dentro de Israel, pero en las fronteras. Eso se llama poblar el territorio. ¿Ahora está claro?

Y querido, vos me decís a mí fachito, pero tu ideología política se resume en tomar el poder y no dejar a nadie votar nunca más. Eso, my darling, es facho, aunque te vistas de rojo.

*Yerucham, Sderot, y Kiriat Malachi, pueblos de los que seguro en tu vida jamás escuchaste hablar*

v boy
Oh you are getting more and more upset.
Remember you have a condition that requires medication.
Paranoid persecution complex.
Hezbollah have as many fighters and arms now as they did pre invasion.
Now back to bed.
Or your safe armchair and watch the nasty children get blown apart.
So you can get sexually turned on by the carnage.

“Los pueblos de frontera israelíes están dentro de Israel, no en los territorios.”

fronteras de Israel definidas por Israel, a traves de la expansion y la colonizacion, claro.

“Yerucham, Sderot, y Kiriat Malachi, pueblos de los que seguro en tu vida escuchaste hablar, están dentro de Israel, en el borde del desierto. Nunca hubo palestinos allí.”

Nadie dijo que hubo palestinos en estos mismos pueblos, ya que no es ningun secreto que Israel iba construyendo colonias nuevas. y que? el tema seria - ¿no te parece? - es que el fin de establecer estos pueblos era colonizar al territorio palestino, donde si vivia una nacion, para facilitar su conquista, su expulsion, y el robo de sus tierras historicas.

“Esos pueblos fueron fundados por los israelíes para poblar las fronteras con Egipto y Jordania, como, por ejemplo, Bariloche fue fundada para poblar la frontera con Chile (pero en Bariloche sí vivían indígenas).”

y eso no justifica la fundacion de Bariloche, ya que no se puede separar esto de una poitica de exterminacion de los pueblos indigenas de Patagonia. no veo como este ejemplo te ayuda.

“Yo no he “admitido” que somos expansionistas. Todo lo contrario. Cientos de pueblos fueron fundados en 1948-1953 dentro de Israel, pero en las fronteras. Eso se llama poblar el territorio. ¿Ahora está claro?”

no, ya que eligiste comparar a la “poblacion” (sic) de “Israel” con la colonizacion del occidente americano, lo cual te parecio una justificacion en si ya que este ultimo proceso dio lugar a un “great country” (tus palabras). el argumento fue bastante claro, te parece bien lo que hicieron los colonos en el occidente americano, y te parece que Israel deberia hacer lo mismo.

ahora tal vez sos totalmente ignorante e ingenuo y no sabes lo que fue el Destino Manifiesto y lo que implico esto para los pueblos indigenas y lo que sigue implicando para el “patio trasero” (o lo que significo para los filipinos entre 1899 y 1913, o los cubanos, o los puertorriqueños, o los mexicanos, etc.)

pero si no, tu comparacion implica que tu vision del sionismo es lo mismo que el destino manifiesto, ya que aplaudiste a este proceso y justificaste las acciones de Israel apelando a este precedente.

por supuesto el sionismo de por si ya implica esto pero lo notable es que nuestro gran amigo Gene intenta negar estas implicaciones. por eso me gusto que lo hayas dicho bien claro adelante de todos.

“Y querido, vos me decís a mí fachito, pero tu ideología política se resume en tomar el poder y no dejar a nadie votar nunca más. Eso, my darling, es facho, aunque te vistas de rojo.”

no, yo diria que un facho es alguien que propone la colonizacion de regiones enteras por una raza y la exterminacion de otra, que aplaude este proceso como necesario para la creacion de un “great country”, y que, entre otras cosas, propone la teoria de los dos demonios en su blog (teoria rechazada hasta por la ideologia burguesa hegemonica estos dias en la argentina).

yo no soy ningun facho querido fabianito, creo en la extension de la democracia a los medios de produccion y el gobierno de los soviets, como existia en Rusia entre 1917 y 1928. si vos, en cambio, opinas que la argentina hoy en dia es una verdadera democracia, bueno, no se que decirte ademas de…fachito :p

y por supuesto conozco a la historia de Sderot en especial, en realidad no se porque sentis la necesidad de hablar a los sudacas como si fuesemos todos infantes…capaz que te lo hacen en ISrael y lo proyectas a los demas?

amigo yo hablo3 idiomas y estuve mucho tiempo en primer mundo, se lo que es el iperialismo no me hables como tercermundista recien llegado a tu colonia, ok. ,) los latinoamericanos tenemos tanto derecho como gente de cualquier otra parte del mundo de comentar sobre la realidad mundial en su totalidad, y lo solemos hacer con bastante mas lucidez que los filsitinos pequebu yanqui-israelita-ingleses quienes uno encuentra infestando blogs como este. ;)

sorry fabi pero asi es, ciao

Benji: Who and how will they be disqualified, and what happens when another party takes their place?

The electoral authority will disqualify Hamas. Of course this assumes Hamas has put down its guns and bazookas. If they still have guns, then Israel will have to invade and send them to their 72 virgins. Oooops, spoke too late, its happening.

What other party will take their place? remember, all religious parties have been disqualified. So would it be the Save the Spotted Owl Society that will take its place or what?

A religious party is one that fields clerics, or has a religious constitution, or wishes to terminate democracy, or does not honor separation of church and state.

Of course nowadays the lefties are not happy about the separation of church and state anymore and have started to support creationism - but hey nobody takes the lefties seriously anyways. They exist only to amuse us liberals on discussion boards.

Not sure why you are so perplexed about Palestinian elections?

Latin America is the last refuge of the true stalinists. Most of the continental left backed guess who during the Falklands War. And they were so sad when Galtieri lost. But then, Argentinean leftists weren’t glad either when Israel took their friend Eichmann away, were they? Today they believe what Hugo Chávez wants them to believe because it is Chávez who, after all, has been paying them. Ask the Kirchner couple. But, with low oil prices and Chávez barely able to keep himself in power in Caracas, soon we’ll hear no more about this Neanderthal Latin American lefties. Without petrodollars their end will be the same as the Soviet Union’s. I just hope that when they protest outside Buenos Aires Israeli embassy it doesn’t happen that, by coincidence, their Iranian friends have just been planning to blow up the building again. These followers of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Che, Fidel, Chávez and Ahmadinejad are just pathetic losers. They are the reason why Latin American opinion counts for nothing elsewhere in the world, well, not even i n Latin America. And Argentinean anti-Semitism is one more reason why Jews need to have their own country. The Argentinean left’s intellectual level is just below that of Diego Maradona when giving his drunken interviews. There’s an old South American joke about the Argentineans. Do you know what’s the difference between an Argentinean and a terrorist? The terrorist still has some sympathizers.

bartok my “buddy”! you disappeared last time when I asked you *which* historians of argentina you had read. remember!? well now you can enlighten us, and show how they support your world view.

I believe I recommended you La economia politica argentina 1930-2006: poder y clases sociales, by Monica Peralta Ramos. The recommendation remains.

“Latin America is the last refuge of the true stalinists.”

Ironic, this site was founded by a stalinist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry’s_Place

on the other hand I am a trotskyist.

“Most of the continental left backed guess who during the Falklands War.”

Left right and centre, yes. obviously, no-one outside ofthe anglo-saxon bubble is really going to justify Britain having a colony in the South Atlantic, only to anachronisms liek you could such a concept be justifiable.

“And they were so sad when Galtieri lost.”

interesting, interesting…which historian did ou read on this? I recommend Alejandro Dabat on the issue personally.

“But then, Argentinean leftists weren’t glad either when Israel took their friend Eichmann away, were they?”

oh you think Eichmann was a friend of the argentine left, well this just shows you are delirious, paranoid or a liar…in any case youwill fit in well on such a hysterical mcarthyite site like this one.

“Today they believe what Hugo Chávez wants them to believe because it is Chávez who, after all, has been paying them.”

intersting, my party has a section in Venezuela and we lead the working class resistance to Chavez, have ed occupations int he multinational factories SIDOR and Saniarios Maracay against Chavez, and faced up to his repression etc.Next time Chavez is repressing workers who fight for their rights I will send you an email, maybe you will help us…seeing as you are so anti-stalinist you obviously would support the real democratic and socialist left in fighting to democratically take control of the economy…

or you wouldn’t be one of those “anti-stalinists” who has no problem with the crushing of the working class when it is used to protect captialists proeprty against the wishes of the masses?

“Ask the Kirchner couple. ”

ah you think the kirchner’s are left wing, (or “stalinist”). who told you this, Fox News?

WTF ever happened to La mano de d1os’ last posting about our Harry, then:-)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry%27s_place

at least let me correct the broken link, dear comrades :p

Hamas takes a pounding http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052549.html

“Hiding in Mosques”, “Disguised as doctors and nurses”

Cowards!

“Having just glanced at the BBC HYS”

Silly boy, didn’t you know it is a cesspit of hatred and ignorance. There is only slightly less stupidity and ignorant hyperbole on this site. Only slightly mind.

It’s a sort of tabloid HP.

For a laff, by god we need it, try here:

http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

The rapist deliberately sacrifices his own spem for the virtue of the woman he raped. You HP people are as sick as that.

Nothing says “Compassion” like bombing a mosque and sending in tanks.

Yerucham, Sderot, y Kiriat Malachi, pueblos de los que seguro en tu vida escuchaste hablar, están dentro de Israel, en el borde del desierto.

This is a lie. Sderot was the Arab town of Najd. Similarly, Ashkelon was the Arab village of Al-Majdal.

Too bad you don’t know the history of the country you’ve chosen to live in. But it doesn’t surprise me. If you knew it, you would be fighting, not supporting, Israel.

Yerucham, Sderot, and Kiryat Malachi, villages you have surely never heard about, are within Israel, on the edge of the desert. There have never been Palestinians there.

This is a lie. Sderot was the Arab town of Najd. Similarly, Ashkelon was the Arab village of Al-Majdal.

Too bad you don’t know the history of the country you’ve chosen to live in. But it doesn’t surprise me. If you knew it, you would be fighting, not supporting, Israel.

nd Argentinean anti-Semitism is one more reason why Jews need to have their own country.

That’s why Argentinian Jews are voting with their feet… to stay in the country.

You know, things have been a-changin’ a lot in Argentina. It may surprise you to know that Perón is dead, Galtieri is no longer his Prime Minister and the capital has been moved from Rio de Janeiro to Buenos Aires.

intersting, my party has a section in Venezuela and we lead the working class resistance to Chavez, have ed occupations int he multinational factories SIDOR and Saniarios Maracay against Chavez, and faced up to his repression etc.Next time Chavez is repressing workers who fight for their rights I will send you an email, maybe you will help us…seeing as you are so anti-stalinist you obviously would support the real democratic and socialist left in fighting to democratically take control of the economy…

I’d like to introduce you to Zin.

Next time Chavez is repressing workers who fight for their rights I will send you an email

Please do.

RE: v boy
Oh you are getting more and more upset.
Remember you have a condition that requires medication.
Paranoid persecution complex.
Hezbollah have as many fighters and arms now as they did pre invasion.
Now back to bed.
Or your safe armchair and watch the nasty children get blown apart.
So you can get sexually turned on by the carnage.

This from the guy who bemoaned my debating/argument skills. Real good. As for Hezbollah fighters and arms, I’m happy they’re keeping themselves and their arms well hidden in their bunkers. I just wonder why…
This is my last reply to you. bye now.

Nothing says “Compassion” like bombing a mosque and sending in tanks.

More nonsense from the leftofascists who are buzzing HP.

A mosque must be destroyed because it represents obscurantism and communal human subjugation.

Never mind that is where Hamas hides, and where Hamas stores its weapons of mass terror and subjugation. Never mind that a mosque is the vehicle for brainwashing and indoctrinating children to racism, hatred, chauvinism and Islamic supremacy.

To do that, you need tanks. And here we are.

As a Muslim apostate (hey anti-progressive lefties and pomos take notice), let me say - thank you the state and the people of Israel.

RE: and the rpely to vildechaye is awaiting moderators approval, probably for having many links.

Oh i’m moist with anticipation. Can just imagine the content of those “links,” seeing as they’re being send by an unreconstructed Trotskyite Marxist aiming for utopia, which, if it were ever to come to pass (not in my lifetime, i’m sure) would surely instead become a dystopia that would make the capitalist west look like the promised land.

Which is exactly what has happened in every declared Marxist state till now, from the Soviet Union to China to Cuba to the Eastern Bloc states to N. Korea.

What I have never understood is how these Marxist utopians can ignore the millions upon millions of people who vote with their feet, often risking their lives for a life of freedom and relative prosperity somewhere in the West.

Vildechaye

The Marxist dystopians cant understand economics or production. They religiously believe that out of simply communal good intentions and a correct ideological path, wealth is created. They are illiterate of economics, management, finance, and all the other stuff that leads to production.

This is a lie. Sderot was the Arab town of Najd. Similarly, Ashkelon was the Arab village of Al-Majdal. Too bad you don’t know the history of the country you’ve chosen to live in. But it doesn’t surprise me. If you knew it, you would be fighting, not supporting, Israel.

Surprise Alberto. Sderot is on a hill top more than 5 miles to the southwest of Najd (pop. about 500 in 1948). Sderot was never Najd; Najd did not become Sderot; nobody lives on its former site. Alberto, given your LIE about Najd & Sderot - demonstrating that you clearly don’t know either the history or geography of Israel - and according to your own logic, doesn’t that mean you should be supporting Israel, instead of fighting against it? I mean you’re not a garden variety hypocrite and a liar, or are you?

“nobody lives on its former site”

But having them back again is far too high a price to pay for peace.

But having them back again is far too high a price to pay for peace.

It was the Egyptian army who on their march northward to destroy Tel Aviv reached Najd first in 1948 which precipitated the flight of the approx. 500 residents of Najd. Using the Ilan Pappe lexicon, where every instance of a flight of Arab residents during the 1948-49 war constitutes a demonstration of ethnic cleansing, a Pappe devotee would be compelled to conclude that the Egyptian army and not the Haganah/IDF was responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Najd. But then again, granting Palestinian Arabs citizenship in Egypt is apparently too high a price to pay for TMN and for every Arab country that participated in the 48-49 war except for Jordan.

Be that as it may, let us assume for TMN’s sake that they are to be resettled in Israel. In order to satisfy the requirements of UNSC 242, the approx. 500 former residents of Najd, or those Arabs recognized as legal inheritors of their property would have to agree to and accept a:

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

In other words, the price they would have to pay for peace in order to be resettled in Israel is the abandonment of resistance against Israel, Israelis and Jews in Israel. Is that a price (forever abandoning Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PRC, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc.) they would be willing to pay? Would they even be allowed to pay that price even if they wanted to in light of Hamas control of Gaza? Answers on a postcard.

Last of all, it should go without saying that even if these former residents of Najd were to be resettled in Israel on the site of the former village, that clearly would not lead to peace as far as Islamists are concerned, because as was composed by Hassan al Banna, founder of the Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood) and written into the Hamas constitution (in direct contravention of UNSC 242): Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. In other words, TMN’s rhetorical snipe is premised on a falsehood and rendered moot.