Harry’s Place

There’s been a debate at Pickled Politics regarding propaganda. Of course it was directed towards Israel with no acknowledgement of Hamas PR.

A PP writer posted this comment

A video which shows just how IDF are ‘weakening Hamas’ (as one PP pro Israeli commenter put it):

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

Please note this is not work safe, should not be run with minors nearby or be viewed by those with weak stomachs.

Turns out this was a Hamas weapons parade gone wrong in 2005 which killed 15 people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4276458.stm

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/7n4re/graphic_video_of_israel_defense_forces_attack_on/9rj2

This seems to me to be yet more evidence of a fundamental schism between reality and fantasy in the minds of these Arabs and in the Islamist mind generally. They seem really to believe that if they deny something that it didn’t happen! This interview is an excellent example of the sort of divorced from reality distorted thinking which had Comical Ali saying in Iraq that the Iraqis were winning when in the background you could see American tanks, and Hamas leaders (those left alive, that is) boasting to the news reporters while the buildings they are in were tumbling about their ears that they are writing their victory speeches!

It’s the same sort of distorted insane thinking that condemns the IDF for killing children deliberately, when it later transpires that they were playing on the roof of a building (no doubt “encouraged” to do this by Hamas who had launched rockets from there) while the Israeli fire was raining down! What sort of animals deliberately put their children in harm’s way?

Of course they cannot address who started this war because it would mean admitting that they got it wrong and nutcases like this can never, ever admit that they are in the wrong - about anything. Following on from that, they dare not address how it might have been avoided because they are in the wrong to have persisted in the behaviour which brought it about.

Before HB poisons the discussion with lies about breaching the truce it was started on 19th June 2008. A mortar was fired at Israel on the 23rd June and then three rockets on the 24th June without Israel doing anyjthing against Gaza
_______________________

The dialogue demosntrates that Israeli PR is top notch and great at Arab lie busting. I notice how good it is when they are on SKy. A remarkable thing I noticed with one of the Sky anchors, whenever he interviews a Palestinian liar he buts in with points that have been consistently spoken by Israeli speakers, They all seem much more media friendly and don’t lose their cool.

Great stuff. Great to see Hamas lose the propaganda war too!

Anyone seen Jeremy Bowen? I reckon he’s buggered-off home having been narrowly missed by a Qassam a few days ago. Hope the PTSD isn’t too bad Jeremy. Ahh Diddums!

Yes, that’s right - Hamas launched the war. This is pure fantasy. No-one, impartial is convinced by these blatant lies. The UN has reported that the Israeli strike was actually launched during a 48 hr informal ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. The facts are very much against Dave M’s desperate propaganda.

Maven the last time I saw Bowen he looked like a week of sleepless nights and he was in Sderot.

TheIrie, what gives you the right to speak for anyone except yourself - the grandiose “no-one impartial is convinced…..” How the hell would you know? Are you capable of actually holding meaningful intelligent conversations with anyone impartial who will speak to you?

““For every Palestinian citizen today it all goes back to one thing and one thing only. Every complaint, every suffering, every tragedy, it’s all caused by one thing and one thing only – the Hamas movement.”

Was this guy wearing a tin foil hat when he was talking?

The Irie -

Do you have a source for that claim?

This reported in Ha Aretz
Also Sunday, Medvedev told outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday that Russia is seriously concerned about civilian casualties from Israel’s operation in Gaza, the Kremlin said.

“The Russian side expressed its serious concern over the numerous victims among the civilian population and the grave humanitarian situation,” the Kremlin said in a statement describing a telephone conversation between the two me

Don’t mention Chechnya.

Maven the last time I saw Bowen he looked like a week of sleepless nights and he was in Sderot.

There’s still a chance then? Bowen The Human Shield. A mench.

Do you have a source for that claim?

Apart from:-

“It came to me in a dream”

“I read it at MPAC UK”

At MPAC UK they discuss how they are losing the media war http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=39855goto=newpost - as well!

Perhaps Gene can explain why Israel is ignoring a Supreme Court judgement to allow foreign journalists to enter Gaza?

Israel appears not to be governed by the rule of law.

For the first time on anything I agree with Zin on that one.

Holocaust denier, ‘Lady’ Renouf popped up on Press TV this evening spouting her usual crazed bile.

How come this odious creature remains a ‘Lady’?

Surely, she must be stripped of this title and sent packing!

A good post Dave, particularly the last point about learning from mistakes.

Ive just heard Frank Gardner and Bowen on The Beeb.

They dont think Israel has learnt from mistakes. Or they are desperately hoping it hasnt.

I must say, compared to Sky their coverage is pretty dreadful.

Some of it is just apalling. For example, La Bowen, starts of his piece here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7810181.stm

stating that (even according to the Israeli military) Israel will not stop all rocket attacks from Hamas.

He then ends his article claiming:

“For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be the stopping of rocket fire from Gaza. ”

So Israel has already lost then.

Poor, poor journalism. I also think that cheerleading for one side is in pretty poor taste. So the paragraph..

“Hamas fighters, who know Gaza better than the Israeli troops, have a belief in resistance and martyrdom.

Their objective will be to give the Israeli army the same humiliation that Hezbollah inflicted during 2006.

For all their bravado, Hamas are unlikely to be as formidable as Hezbollah.

The rocky, hilly terrain of south Lebanon was not good for Israel’s armour. Gaza, on the other hand, is flat and sandy. ”

is pretty ugly.

Obviously Bowen, along with most of his buddies at the Beeb, are hoping for some pretty horrendous Israeli casualties and hopefully a few prisoners thrown in.

I find Al jazeera coverage a lot more accurate and balanced than the BBCs. Thats got to be a bit worrying.

MattG

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7810181.stm

From the little I have seen of the media in Arab Gulf states, there has been an adherence to the Fatah line: the Israeli response is disproportionate, but Hamas started it. Perhaps they take this line because Iran has repeatedly threatened them (and supported Shi’ite extremists in their territories), whereas Israel is somewhat distant and irrelevant.

Perhaps Gene can explain why Israel is ignoring a Supreme Court judgement to allow foreign journalists to enter Gaza?

Israel appears not to be governed by the rule of law

I know I can speak for Gene any time on any subject so……
(just kidding!)

I think its great that the military overuled the courts. Regev stated that by not having the press there then they don’t endanger the lives of Israeli soldiers by revealing operational details.

Good decision. I’ don’t need to know how the match is going, just the scores from time to time.

Gaza is very dangerous and reporters lives would be in danger.

Well, a good illustration I think that a free media is the only hope for the future.

Al Jazeera is not to my taste or many people’s tastes around here. We know they push an Arab-supremacist agenda. But it can only be to the good for Arabs to hear Israeli spokespeople give their viewpoint, forcefully and uncensored as in this case - just as it is good for us to hear what Arabs and Iranians and Pakistanis think.

Mark T: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3646972,00.html

You keep using that phrase “rule of law”, in reference to arbitrary orders handed down from non-legislative bodies, almost as if you thought it meant “obedience without question, delay, deliberation, or appeal to the actual written laws themselves”. Back in my day, the saying was “rule of law, and not of men”. Peeve of mine.

Is TheIRA saying that Hamas did NOT launch rockets at Israel during the “cease fire?”

Mattg, Bowen is a sick person who’s probably Hasbara Buster in disguise. I would allow Bowen into Gaza any time because its a dangerous deadly place. How the BBC can put up with his obvious hatred of Israel is beyond everyone’s comprehension.

Sky coverage is getting better and studio anchors pretty good. Fox is the best any news media could be.

I’d say that BBC in the studio is a lot more even than I expected its just Bowen who seems like the eccentric. The sooner he buggers off to Al Jazeera where his true calling is, the better.

There has to be something rotten at the BBC Middle East core when Guerin has been pushed aside and Plett banished for her tears for Arafat. At the moment they have some woman with an American accent show’s doing her best to clone Bowen but she cowers from most Israeli govt spokespeople.

Fox interestingly speak of Israel responding to Hamas terrorists or charcterise Israel in Gaza as “Israel responsing to Hamas rockets”. At least they are contextualising all the time. With BBC its “500 dead as Israel continues to pound Gaza” without any context as to why

[IDF officials] said that it was likely that a number of senior Hamas operatives and terror chiefs were hiding and conducting their operations from within Shifa Hosptial in Gaza City.

“Hamas operatives are in the hospital and have disguised themselves as nurses and doctors,” one official explained.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733158821&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

FFS TheIrie.

You said that

The UN has reported that the Israeli strike was actually launched during a 48 hr informal ceasefire between Hamas and Israel.

What we actually have is one woman - the UNRWA representative Karen Abu Zayd - speculating that Hamas may have believed that Israel was going to propose a 48-hour truce.

Can you see where you’ve gone wrong there?

LOL UN Official who relies on the Palestinians for her job claims that Israel MAY have attacked during the lull.

“There was only one rocket that went out on Friday, so it was obvious that Hamas was trying, again, to observe that truce to get this back under control,” she said.

Yep, only one rocket went out so that makes it ok.

“I don’t think they think the truce was violated first by Hamas,” she said.

Yep, that sure makes it definite, it was the Israelis for sure.

Karen Abu Zayd’s statement is full of innuendos and double speak that she is certain to hedge with “I think” and “I believe” never with I know. These are all deceptive comments as anyone trained in any degree of statement analysis can attest to.

This is the fourth time I’ve asked you this TheErie, why have none of you or your comrades ever instigated a march or protest against Hamasistan’s shelling of Israel?

Chaps, there’s a piece by Gideon Levy, on Haaretz, the content and spirit of which you will have to address sooner or later.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052348.html

“The legend, lest it be a true story, tells of how the late mathematician, Professor Haim Hanani, asked his students at the Technion to draw up a plan for constructing a pipe to transport blood from Haifa to Eilat. The obedient students did as they were told. Using logarithmic rulers, they sketched the design for a sophisticated pipeline. They meticulously planned its route, taking into account the landscape’s topography, the possibility of corrosion, the pipe’s diameter and the flow calibration. When they presented their final product, the professor rendered his judgment: You failed. None of you asked why we need such a pipe, whose blood will fill it, and why it is flowing in the first place.

Regardless of whether this story is legend or true, Israel is now failing its own blood pipeline test. As Israel has been preoccupied with Gaza throughout the entire week, nobody has asked whose blood is being spilled and why. Everything is permitted, legitimate and just. The moral voice of restraint, if it ever existed, has been left behind. Even if Israel wiped Gaza off the face of the earth, killing tens of thousands in the process, as a Chechnyan laborer working in Sderot proposed to me, one can assume that there would be no protest.

They liquidated Nizar Ghayan? Nobody counts the 20 women and children who lost their lives in the same attack. There was a massacre of dozens of officers during their graduation ceremony from the police academy? Acceptable. Five little sisters? Allowed. Palestinians are dying in hospitals that lack medical equipment? Peanuts. Whatever happened to the not-so-good old days of Salah Shahadeh? When we liquidated him in July 2002, we also killed 15 women and children. At least back then, moral qualms were raised for a moment.
Here lie their bodies, row upon row, some of them tiny. Our hearts have turned hard and our eyes have become dull. All of Israel has worn military fatigues, uniforms that are opaque and stained with blood and which enable us to carry out any crime. Even our leading intellectuals fail to speak out on what havoc we have wreaked. Amos Oz urges: “Cease-fire now.” David Grossman writes: “Hold your fire. Stop.” Meir Shalev wants “a punitive operation.” And not one word about our moral image, which has been horribly distorted.

The suffering in the south renders everything kosher, as if the horrible suffering in Gaza pales in comparison. Everyone is hungry for revenge, and that hunger is excused by the need for “deterrence,” after it was already proved that the killing and the destruction in Lebanon did not achieve it.

Yes, I know, war is war. After all, they brought this on themselves. They are a terrorist organization and we are not. They want to destroy us and we seek peace. Still, is there nothing here that will stop this blood pipeline? Even those whose hearts are hardened by “moral righteousness” will have to momentarily halt the bombing machine and ask: Which Israel do we have before us? What will become of its standing in the world, which is now watching the events in Gaza? What are we inflicting on the moderate Arab regimes? And what of the simmering popular hatred we are sowing throughout the world? What good will emerge from this killing and destruction?

It is doubtful whether Hamas will be cut down to size as a result of this wretched war. Yet, the face of the state has been cut down to size, as have civilian elites who are apathetic and scared. The “peace camp,” if it ever existed, has been cut down to size. Attorney General Menachem Mazuz authorized the Ghayan killing, regardless of the cost. Haim Oron, the leader of the “new left-wing movement,” supported the launch of this foolish war.

Nobody is coming to the rescue - of Gaza or even of the remnants of humanity and Israeli democracy. The statesmen, the jurists, the poets, the authors, academe, and the news media - pitch black over the abyss. When the time comes for reckoning, we will need to remember the damage this war did to Israel: The blood pipeline it laid has been completed.”

“What we understood here (was) that there was a 48-hour lull to be called, and this was called by the Israelis,” Abu Zayd said. “They said they would wait 48 hours. That was on Friday morning, I believe, until Sunday morning, and that they were going to evaluate.”

“There was only one rocket that went out on Friday, so it was obvious that Hamas was trying, again, to observe that truce to get this back under control,” she said.

One too many luvvy!

The FACT is that the truce was arranged on June 19th and on June 23rd a mortar was fired from Gaza and on 24th June three rockets fired from Gaza.

At the end of the truce Hamas was warned that Israel would respond to any continuation of rocket fire via talks with Egypt. Egypt were told that Israel may well launch an attack in response. Hamas response was some 200 rockets in the days after the warning. Egypt warned Hamas but the still fired 200 rockets.

This is just more Palestinian lies luvvy.

All Israel did was decide on the day to retaliate following a fair warning.

They broke the truce and they can pay the price. Ok luvvy?

And furthermore Abu Zayd is lying when she claims that

“There was only one rocket that went out on Friday, so it was obvious that Hamas was trying, again, to observe that truce to get this back under control”

25 shells were fired that Friday.

Galloway not on Talksport. Supporters upset that the show had a chance of balance. All the Zionists fault

George Galloway’s popular radio show which goes out every Friday and Saturday from 10pm has been cancelled without warning tonight - and without a full explanation to his vast army of listeners.
The only conclusion drawn so far, is that this is an unprecedented attack on freedom of speech and the sort of censorship we have come to expect from dictatorships, certainly not democracies.
SGS - Stop Gaza Slaughter, founded by peace activists Ghada Razuki and Yvonne Ridley believe this is just part of the Zionist onslaught on anyone who disagrees with the brutal actions of the Israeli military.
Yvonne Ridley said: “I called Talksport tonight and asked them why George Galloway’s show had been cancelled. I was told that they were introducing replacement host Ian Collins so he could bring some ‘independent coverage’ to the situation in Gaza.
“This is an outrage and direct interference with a popular host’s show simply because he does not tow the line as far as the Zionists are concerned and he gives voice to those who would not ordinarily have their pro-Palestinian views heard or even tolerated.
“This is not a victory for anyone, even the enemies of Galloway who often phone in to challenge his opinions, but it is a disaster for free speech and a free media. Sadly it is another blow for freedom of expression in Gordon Brown’s Britain.”
If you want to challenge Talksport about the decision to axe Galloway’s show tonight call 0871 722 3344 and make your views heard

In fact, the sole basis for this strange idea that Israel was going to propose a 48-hour lull comes from this AP report that Friday, the 26th December -

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

Of course, when Israel subsequently launched an attack, those deliveries were somehow interpreted as being a signal of peaceful intent.

That same AP article reports that

The militants kept up their fire on Israeli border areas despite Israel’s agreement to open its crossings Friday. In all, 13 rockets and mortars were fired toward Israel by Friday evening, the military said. One home was struck but no injuries were reported.

completely disproving Abu Zayd’s claim that only one rocket was fired.

Total bullshit, in other words.

Honeymoon’s over.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//090104/481/0c6f73d8856d4995b2938583e29d4f5f/

Julian

Thank you for copying and pasting the Levy piece. Id already read it.

I like Gideon Levy, he writes very well.

Many other people have written in Haaretz and other newspapers giving a totally different pooint of view and indeed answering many of the questions Levy poses.

Evidently you agree with Levy’s point of view. Thats fine.

But he is a journalist and a commenter, like our own Fisk, or if you like Melanie Phillips. Some points he makes are sound. Others aren’t really true and are deliberately provocative, or quote the man on the street:

“The suffering in the south renders everything kosher,”

“Even if Israel wiped Gaza off the face of the earth, killing tens of thousands in the process, as a Chechnyan laborer working in Sderot proposed to me, one can assume that there would be no protest.”

I belive that Levy loves Israel and is speaking from the heart. Equally I would add that the points he makes are applicable to almost any army or any conflict worldwide. The conduct of the British in Iraq and Afghanistan (and the millions of dead as a result) for example.

Thanks for posting it anyhow.

mattG

Bowen is useless isn’t he?

It seems that he applies different standards to Hamas and Israel.

Israel is expected to endure rocket attacks without complaint or comment. But Hamas has every right to respond to the merest perceived slight.

He was claiming today that had diplomacy been given a chance (i.e. had people not reacted to the election of a terrorist government by some mild sanction measures) then this situation would not have arisen. How naive is that? Does he really think if the EU had remained fully engaged with Hamas that they would not have built their tunnels and stockpiled their rockets? That’s almost insulting to Hamas. At least let’s admit they are people who care little for their own lives and are prepared to do anything to drive out the Jews from “their” land, including slaughtering them en masse if they refuse to bow to Islamic rule.

Just to add that I love the fact that articles like that one are posted alongside pictures of dead soldiers on haaretz, or alongside articles arguing otherwise.

Its open, democratic and brave - some of the many reasons for which I love the State of Israel.

I suspect that is not why you like the article, but thats fine.

mattG

Julian

It’s terrible. I’m horrified by the images I see and i feel genuine sadness for the people of gaza and the families and friends of those who lost their lives.

I am equally disgusted with the arabic news channels (and I’m not talking about Al Jazeera English, which i think has been about as neutral as can be expected) who are vying their people on the hate israel even more. Who skew events to show them in the worst light for Israel. How is this conducive to peace? How is ignoring the wrongs of Hamas, ignoring and not even mentioning the rockets into Israel responsible?

The saddest thing of all is that for an ‘ignorant’ (e.g. Annie Lennox) I can see why if you ‘come down stairs a few days after xmas and suddenly see….’ then you see dead children and you see Israel killing them. If this is the first time you’ve paid attention then of course you’re not going to be sympathetic to Israel in fact, if it were me I’d be completely disgusted.

So, war is sad and terrible things have happened. Israel is being seen throughout the world as a nation who (at best) don’t care about innocents or (at worst) are actively targetting young children.

But what is Israel to do? 8 years of rockets, a ceasfire broken on day 4, a neighbour who believe that they have been ordered by god to kill jews and to destroy israel and who despite bein warned of an israeli incursion fire rockets at a greater intensity.

What should israel do when Hamas has its main weapons store under Shifa Hospital. When it uses places of worship, civillian houses, schools and city squares to lauch rockets from?

How does Israel stop the threat. I imagine you’re going to say ‘lift the siege’ but this is not the answer. Of course the ’siege’ needs lifting and the only war for a viable palestinian state is through economic development BUT when faced with groups who want their own peoples death and who don’t care about a palestinian state in Gaza (because anything less than every square inch of israel is too little), then what do you do?

You lift the siege, have border crossings attacked and still get rockets over the border!

What’s the answer?

Worth following up. Can’t find anything but AP flashes but it says that Israel has broken into Gaza tv and inserted its own messages. No time to research. Beddy Byes!

As for SPGB Gray, he really does believe that Islamic ideology is a cultural product of a system of ownership of the means of production. Poor sap.

It would be amusing to see Islamists burn him alive for his atheism (sorry matey - atheists aren’t even allowed to be second class citizens under Shariah law) - but I’m not prepared to acquiesce in the triumph of Islam to enjoy that small pleasure.

Field

I have a friend who worked pretty closely with Bowen.

Two things that made a lasting impression on him.

1) the volume of alcohol Bowen drank and the regularity with which he did it. This was several years ago so I have no idea if this is still the case.

2) he was no friend of the bretheren. He doesnt believe Israel should exist, does not want it to be there. I have no idea if these are still his views……but i have my suspicions.

ps these views are mine and mine alone and not those of this blog. The friend does exist and did indeed relay these things to me. He/She found them quite amusing. I didn’t.

mattg

I believe it would be prejudicial to have the Beeb along with Israeli army, i.e. for the army. Something I never ever thought would happen - I no longer listen to the Beeb for impartial reporting on the Middle east.

Thank you, DaveM, for providing the transcript - very interesting to read it. Despite all of Al-Jazeera’s political slant, I think it’s very important that they are willing to put an IDF spokesman on the air so that people in the Arab world can hear Israelis directly without having to rely solely on state media.

Hamas Using UN Marked Ambulances as troop Carriers

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776

More cynicism from Hamas, the media, the pro Palestinian NGOs and the UN. They are all in on the propaganda offensive against Israel.

I want to see the regular Hamas supporters here squirm out of this one. Lets see how the justify this.

Holy crap! ROTFLMAO The ambulance has UN in big letters on the back!

Why does Israel raise the ire of the chattering classes so much that they’ll be seen with Hamas types? I’ve long been suspicious of those well-to-do pseudo intellectual types who know how best I should live but I had hoped they genuinely were against all that homophobia, jew-hating gangsterism etc of the maniacally religious fruitcakes of Hamas. Anyone that sees Israel as an obscenity that should not exist is no friend of ‘liberal’ types surely? And anyone who supports organisations with that view is certainly not a friend of mine. I’m not really a hard-liner on these things but these religious fanatics seem quite odious to me. If it walks like a fascist, talks like a fascist and acts like a fascist then it is a fascist.

MattG

I caught Sky’s report from the conflict earlier. It made a refreshing change, I can tell you! In addition to the shots of Israeli bombardments of hamas positions, we had a hospital bedside interview with an elderly Sderot woman whose home had been rocketed today together with her son. Viewers were informed that reaction from the Arab world to the Israeli offensive had been muted - and WHY. And viewers were reminded of the vicious infighting between Hamas and Fatah which culminated in the murders of hundreds of Gazans after Hamas purged Fatah. We saw all the horror of war, to be sure, but we were left in no doubt that the causes of that war were far more complex and nuanced than BBC correspondents would have us believe.

Respect to Sky!

Yesterday Paul Reynolds of the BBC added to his archive of pro-Hamas coverage with this piece on Israeli footage posted on youtube being nothing than propaganda. Reynolds went on to claim that the workers were not loading rockets but air canisters. What he doesnt tell you is what these canisters are used for. (see below)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7809371.stm

To get at the truth Liveleak comes handy:

Home Made “Air Canisters” or Rockets

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=005_1217348281

Rockets launched on Israel from Gaza rooftops in densely populated areas

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d00_1201454863

this is the type of enemy that Israel has to contend with and the mainstream media does its best to hide this truth.

TheIrie: “The UN has reported that the Israeli strike was actually launched during a 48 hr informal ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. “

The UN representative flat-out lied. She also said that only one rocket was launched that Friday. The AP passed along this lie without checking their own archives, which stated that at least 13 rockets were fired by Hamas into Israel. That’s on top of the one that fell short and killed two Palestinian girls.

The militants kept up their fire on Israeli border areas despite Israel’s agreement to open its crossings Friday. In all, 13 rockets and mortars were fired toward Israel by Friday evening, the military said. One home was struck but no injuries were reported.

Do a little research, and you’ll find that most of the stats you quote are flat-out lies.

Serenipidity

“This seems to me to be yet more evidence of a fundamental schism between reality and fantasy in the minds of these Arabs and in the Islamist mind generally”

Like the belief that a group armed with a few rockets poses a serious existential threat to a first world nuclear armed army you mean?

Matt G -

Thanks for those interesting comments - which, if true, would explain a lot…(he wouldn’t be the first foreign reporter to fancy a drap of the awld stuff).

Referencing your comment re the brethren…

Is Jeremy Bowen Jewish? A quick search on Google reveals that the Nazis hate him. Which suggests he might be.

No doubt he would argue that being traduced by Nazis and pro-Israel types confirms his objectivity.

However, I think that misses the point. What I object about his reporting is not so much its subjectivity as its bogus objectivity. If he merely set out how the various factions in this fractious part of the world felt that would be fine. He could say the Arabs see the Jews as interlopers, land stealers who have no right to be there. He could say the Jews in the area see themselves as a nation with an unbroken attachment to the land who have a right to be there. And he could set out all the various shades of opinion that circle around those two poles. That would be objective reporting.

But instead he claims this sort of God-like omniscience - had the EU not withdrawn from engagement with Hamas, then Hamas would never have launched the recent rocket attacks etc etc …er, yeah, we believe you Jeremy (not).

Basically my objection to him is that he is a piss-poor reporter. The Al Jazeerer link did a better job of reporting.

But they’re not aiming the rockets at the nuclear armed army though…

what excuse does HPhypocrite have about Hamas using ambulances with red cross and UN markings as troop carriers. so far nothing. and benji too is silent on the matter. what a surprise.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776

what excuse does HPhypocrite have about Hamas using ambulances with red cross and UN markings as troop carriers. so far nothing. and benji too is silent on the matter. what a surprise.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776

I’ve seen that video before. It’s not from the current conflict. It’s still appalling, though.

Just a compliment to Adraee who argued so well in what must a ddifficult situation.

Perhaps Gene can explain why Israel is ignoring a Supreme Court judgement to allow foreign journalists to enter Gaza?

Israel appears not to be governed by the rule of law.

Your concern for the rule of law when it suits you is touching, Zin. I agree that foreign journalists should be allowed to enter Gaza, on condition they don’t provide operational details that could help Hamas.

Surely Israel has no obligation to allow journalists into land that it does not claim sovereignty over.

If you are a journalist presumably you apply to whichever Palestinian entity you think has control over Gaza.

I think this first sentence from Jeremy Bowen’s piece on the BBC News website may confirm what Matt G’s post implied:

“Along the border fields that were full of tanks and troops are almost empty.”

Yes, it makes no sense. Read it again…it still makes no sense.

Clearly Bowen has drunk too deeply of the clear waters of the River Jordan.

This military campaign isn’t being done under a pretext. It’s a response to a barbaric act of war carried out by a terrorist organization that targets Israeli citizens who live in the area adjacent to the Gaza Strip.

“There have been hundreds of missiles fired on the heads of our men, women, children, and elderly, even in the last few day

“Hundreds of rockets fired on the heads of our men, women and children”.

Back to reality:

8,500 rockets in 8 years, 20 deaths. Israeli assessments do not rate attacks by these rockets as a serious physical threat.

Those corpses are from Hamas members who are shelling us.

25% to a third are civilians and the exact status of Hamas members is not verified. Last time I heard there were at least 62 Palestinian women and children killed. That’s over three times the number of Israelis killed in rocket attacks, just in women and children, that’s just up to a few days ago.

What about your Hamas chums using an ambulance as troop carriers Benjamin?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776

It puts this usual puff piece by the Guardian into perspective

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/paramedic-killed-israeli-shell-gaza

It can get dangerous driving an ambulance full load of Hamas fighters playing at keystone cops … still its worth doing as long as Oxfam pays the bills … wouldnt you agree Benjamin?

If you are a journalist presumably you apply to whichever Palestinian entity you think has control over Gaza.

Israel controls all access to Gaza, has done for years, and controls airspace, and the sea. This it has done throughout, including before the rise of Hamas.

Do Guardian Writers Feel Happy publishing daily propaganda for Islamists?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/gaza-diary-israel

yes.

“But a truce while they’re raining hundreds of missiles down on us? We cannot and will not accept that.

According to the Israelis, rocket and mortar attacks were reduced to close to zero during the truce with Hamas, proving that Hamas, despite the fact that it is only one of a number of militant groups, can implement a pretty effective ceasefire. During the ceasefire the killing of Palestinians continued. Hamas eventually resumed attacks after an Israel incursion killed Palestinians, allegedly after tunneling efforts were discovered; however tunnels sprout up all the time, especially under blockade conditions.

“You hit me then you cry and you’re the first to complain? I’ve said all of this previously, this is the Palestinian situation right now”.

Notice the collective guilt. Actually it’s Hamas that ‘hits’ Israel (and pretty ineffectively), but note how he says Palestinians as a whole hit them and then “cry”.

DeFisker

You have finally woken up to the notion that Hamas is a guerrilla army. Congratulations. What’s the solution? Bomb all ambulances? Bomb all mosques? Bomb all offices? Bomb all hospitals? Bomb all schools? Bomb all police stations? Bomb all houses?

What happened the last time Israel tried to destroy and disarm a guerrilla army (Hez)? It failed.

“But a truce while they’re raining hundreds of missiles down on us? We cannot and will not accept that.

According to the Israelis, rocket and mortar attacks were reduced to close to zero during the truce with Hamas, proving that Hamas, despite the fact that it is only one of a number of militant groups, can implement a pretty effective ceasefire. During the ceasefire the killing of Palestinians continued. Hamas eventually resumed attacks after an Israel incursion killed Palestinians, allegedly after tunneling efforts were discovered; however tunnels sprout up all the time, especially under blockade conditions.

Why are there so many people in this thread unclear on the concepts of “war”, “war crime” and “acts of war”?

Like the belief that a group armed with a few rockets poses a serious existential threat to a first world nuclear armed army you mean?

Those rockets are both “an act of war” and a “war crime” and they constitute an threat to Israeli civilians. The Israeli government is entirely within their rights to respond to an act of war by prosecuting a war; in any case that government is the legitimate representative of the Israeli people and if the Israeli people want protection from these acts, they have a duty to provide it, whether their response can be internationally accepted or not.

So Benji, it’s not “collective guilt,” it’s war, which a very common concept. I’m surprised you haven’t come to understand it by now.

Also I can’t help notice that for all of Benji’s hysteria he’s never proposed a single workable solution to a single problem. What a bloody useless imbecile!

Israeli actions are increasing the threat to their own citizens. 8,500 rocket attacks since 2000 have brought about 20 deaths. An increase in rocket attacks, such as resulting from this military action, obviously makes it more likely that Israelis will be killed, even at that low kill rate. Israel, through much of 2008, successfully reduced the rocket attacks to a trickle through a ceasefire with Hamas.

Apparently on discovering a tunnel being made into Israel, it abandoned the ceasefire. Please note it did not launch an attack when the odd rocket came over during the ceasefire. In 2005, Israel discovered a tunnel to its territory and simply demolished it without launching an attack. The conditions overall were pretty promising. A massive reduction in rocket attacks, and a possibility of prolonging the ceasefire - all beneficial to reducing the rocket attacks and providing greater security to those Israelis in border areas.

Compared to the Israeli propaganda continuously poured out by Fox, CNN, Sky and the BBC, the odd alternative opinion from the other side by Al Jazeera is a welcome relief for all those who value the truth and want to hear both sides of the argument.

Here’s some facts you will never hear on Fox CNN SKy or the BBC:

Since the start of the brokered truce, there have been 195 breaches by Israel in the Gaza Strip that led to 22 deaths along with 62 injured including nine fishermen and farmers. There were also 38 people imprisoned.

In the West Bank there were 1260 incursions that killed 21 Palestinians along with 245 injured. Most of them were injured during demonstrations against the separation wall during which the occupying forces imprisoned 1111 – all of this during the six months of what Israel calls a truce.

“Compared to the Israeli propaganda continuously poured out by Fox, CNN, Sky and the BBC, the odd alternative opinion from the other side by Al Jazeera is a welcome relief for all those who value the truth and want to hear both sides of the argument.” Irene

This poster is either an idiot or she is hasn’t been listening carefully enough to the BBC.

The BBC has a hard time hiding it’s anti-Israel bias in all the broadcasts I have heard.

CNN is the only news organization that gives you both sides of the story. Though too often it cuts corners and doesn’t look into any given story with enough depth.

Irene-

You may not hear them on the news forums that you refer to but you will read them on Harry’s Place!

And people criticise this site for its bias?
(Though the endorsement, accidental of course, of a bigot who supports the Protocols is hardly desirable.)

Benjamin-

Have you forgotten to switch on your brain today? How can you argue that a ceasefire was in place when the rockets were reduced to “a trickle”? (Your own words) I’m not even sure how you can argue, with any moral credibility, that a trickle of rockets is ok? I’m not even sure how you can suggest that 8,500 rockets in 9 years is supportive of your position?

As to the tunnel - after what happened to Shalit and the fact that he has still been unable to be seen by the Red Cross, what do you suggest they do?

Can we get mac’s hateful vomit at 4.07am removed please?

How can you argue that a ceasefire was in place when the rockets were reduced to “a trickle”? (Your own words) I’m not even sure how you can argue, with any moral credibility, that a trickle of rockets is ok? I’m not even sure how you can suggest that 8,500 rockets in 9 years is supportive of your position?

A ceasefire on the Palestinian side is harder to enforce because there is no regular army to obey it; there is more factions. However, given the circumstances, the reduction of rockets was dramatic.

Between January and June 2008 there was an average of 179 rocket attacks per month. Then, from the start of the truce until November, there was an average of 3 rocket attacks per month.

No rocket attack is ‘okay’, but such a reduction represents a considerable improvement in the security of folk living in the border areas and something that could have been built on if restraint had been shown on both sides. Note that Israel did not launch a massive assault when a rocket flew over. Even in August, when eight rockets flew over, they did not. One rocket was launched in July and September; in October, two rockets were launched (source: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs). In early November, Israel raided Gaza and killed 6 people in reaction, apparently, to tunnel building. The truce broke down, and 126 rockets were launched in November, but not resulting, to my knowledge, in deaths.

You would have thought that at this point, given the success of the truce in dramatically reducing rocket attacks, greater efforts could have been made to secure another truce, rather than engaging in a massive military assault.

As regards my mention of the total of roughly 8,500 rocket attacks since 2000; yes, all these attacks are wrong, but the fact that 20 have been killed from 8,500 rocket launches suggests they are very rudimentary weapons indeed. If you compare that kill rate and their technical specification with the overblown rhetoric we are hearing from Israeli spokespeople currently, there is a rather large gap with reality. In other times (although still under rocket attacks) the Israelis have judged the rockets to be more of a psychological than physical threat.

Obviously any rocket bombardment is unacceptable, even if these are rudimentary rockets. However, two things should be considered:

Firstly, the rockets are being fired from a territory that is not a fully formed state, that is under a blockade and is strictly controlled (and this was true before Hamas came to power). The final settlement of the underlying territorial dispute is not complete. Therefore the rocket attacks cannot be represented as simple case of one fully formed sovereign country attacking another (this is just one problem with the WWII analogy).

Secondly, if we accept that these rockets are entirely unacceptable (and I readily accept that), the lack of capability of the rockets cannot be disregarded. They do not threaten the existence of Israel, not even close. The response to such a threat has to be taken by wise heads, and in my view (while fully accepting that Israel has to respond to threats), I do not think a full scale military assault is the wise response, not only because of the deaths of Palestinian civilians, but because it will not result in greater security for Israelis living in border areas.

As regards the tunnel, that could have been demolished without any further assault; indeed that is what happened in 2005 to a similar tunnel. It was not worth more deaths and destablising a truce for. The truce needed careful management and building upon. A wider assault only makes more Shalits more likely.

A wider assault only makes more Shalits more likely.

Shalit - meh, he’s one lost soldier in a war. Yeah you want your soldiers back, but if that sort of thing affects your strategy you’re too fucking wimpy to be fighting any wars.

Notice the collective guilt. Actually it’s Hamas that ‘hits’ Israel (and pretty ineffectively),

Its like this. Israel is billion ton’s of mean fighting machine and there was a switch called “Don’t pull this switch or we will destroy you”.

Hamas pulled the switch to see what would happen. The little darlin’s of the Westerns Leftist fascists and Islamists seethers found out.

Next time they don’t throw the switch.

Note that Irie has not been back since his ‘UN bombshell’ was exposed. Sorry sack of shit.

You can see this vid is pally pr nobody in gaza wears t-shirts and summer clothes in december/jan

Benjamin has gone mad on this thread, firing dud rockets ad lib across the border each one marked where it lands with a little flag, examined carefully and then commented on by HP residents, which response only encourages him or her to send over more. Boycott the cretin and his /her handiworks!

For the last 18 months Israel and its allies have agreed to continue isolating Hamas and to allow only the most basic essentials into Gaza.

It was a policy which reflected their total rejection of Hamas’s ideology and actions.

Latest from the BBC (Bowen): It was easier to stick to that policy than to make serious attempt to address the problems of Gaza, the Palestinians and Israel.

Diplomats and leaders on all sides should have done better. They might have avoided this war.

But that did not happen and it is too late now, at least until this round of bloodletting is over.”

Perhaps if “Hamas had stopped bombing Israel and smuggling in arms and concentrated on improving the wealth of its constituents” there would be no need for Israel’s response??

Benjamin-

There is one thing you don’t seem to have considered with regards the reduction of rocket activity in the “truce” period.

Hamas were clearly in control of the Gaza strip (after all, they threw the opposition off buildings if you recall) - this indicates that Hamas has the ability to stop the rockets if they chose to.

It’s not (as you are seeming to suggest) a messy situation with factions running amok doing what they want - its clearly a Hamas policy which can be changed - their leadership could easily suppress any dissent and enforce the decision if they chose to.
They have clearly not chosen to do this and keep their members firing rockets.

They are also, as we are reminded often, the democratically elected leadership of the Palestinians and therefore have popular support behind their policies/actions. They have a responsibility to their people and its not to ignore civilian concerns for, as you admit yourself, a completely inneffective military policy of provocation.

You take the word of a trained killer over that of a journalist. That says a lot about this whole shit hole site.

Perhaps Oniad, although I still think a total ceasefire is harder to implement on the Palestinian side. There was a huge reduction in rocket attacks, without any invasion or massive military strike. This means that a ceasefire with Hamas can be implemented, at least for a time, and albeit not with a total cessation of rocket attacks.

Perhaps folks are impatient, but its through these small steps that confidence is built. I think peace is built gradually this way, rather than through massive strikes and yet more civilian casualties, which only plays into Hamas’s hands. If the PA is reinstalled by the Israelis, I am not sure how long they will last.

Quote: “The claim that this latest aggression is a legitimate reaction to Hamas rockets falsifies the events that preceded the assault on Gaza. Prior to Israel’s launching of its air war on December 27, not a single Israeli was killed by the recent spate of home-made and largely ineffectual Qassam rockets fired from Gaza. The increase of such rocket firings was provoked by Israel’s shattering of a cease-fire with a cross-border raid in November that killed six members of the Hamas security force. Israel defied the terms of the cease-fire, refusing to lift its deadly blockade of Gaza, which for 18 months has deprived the impoverished population of food, medicine, potable water and electricity. It agreed to the cease-fire in the first place in order, by its own admission, to undertake intense preparations for the present war.”

It’s interesting that this morning’s offereings from HP are some obscure interview with some IDF attack dog. Yesterday’s top HP story was an Israeli academic getting the German for 400 and 40000 confused. This was manipulated by HP to imply that every opponent to this war is a lying self-hater. It was desperate and yet illuminates the ideological bankrupcy of this dreadful (yet compelling, I have to say) shite hole site.

Benjamin-
Historically speaking, peace has been generally concluded after the significant (and clear) defeat of one of the parties involved in a conflict. It is only a relatively modern phenomenon that calls for restraint etc to negotiate a better way. Besides, the models you would use to argue your position of negotation/small steps (eg. Northern Ireland?) come from the positions of the west, which as you would admit, have different values/culture etc - it is similar to the ww2 analogy that you keep decrying because they are not comparable.

steve brown-
thanks for the valuable and thoughtful contributions. it’s clear that you have put a great deal of thought and effort into your comments. perhaps you might want to come back in 10 years after you’ve grown up a little more and have moved beyond “shit hole” as your preferred description of those who you disagree with…

Interesting article by Chris McGreal in the Guardian today about how the war is part of the election campaign in Israel. In the beauty contest between Ehud Barak and Benjamin Netanyahu, Barak is trying upstage Bibi as the tough guy who gives no quarter - if that’s possible.

What is HP’s take on the latest remarks from the IDF that they are going to target hospitals? The “reasoning” being that there might be Hamas fighters inside? Is that Hamas’ fault aswell? The IDF is just following a path set out by Hamas in your eyes and has no choice but to shell and kill civilians and then claim it is the victim in all this? And then accuse critics of these tactics of anti-semitism? I don’t know how you hold all that contradictory stuff in your heads at the same time. I’m not offereing any kind of support to either side, before you start. But it’s evident who is the main aggressor here and it isn’t Hamas. If they start bombing the hospitals, then they’ll have gone off the scale all together.
Israel has lost this war already - militarily, ideologically, morally and politically. The image of Israel has taken, regrettably, another major hit. By its savage actions in the last year and the last few days, the current Israeli regime has dishonoured the memory of the last 100 years of Jewish history as well as their blood drenched state. People all over the world no longer believe the propaganda that HP and other more important MSM sources are coming out with. You’ve lost….again.

Historically speaking, peace has been generally concluded after the significant (and clear) defeat of one of the parties involved in a conflict.

I don’t think this conflict fits into those categories. Not only is Hamas a guerrilla (and political) force, but its also about the complexities of the wider Israeli/Palestinian struggle. The Palestinians cannot be defeated. All Israel can try to do is swap, by force, their leaderships, and it can’t then prevent new leaderships and forces coming into being.

Oniad - your response is vacuous.

Steve, on the hospitals - there are reports that the Hamas leadership are disguising themselves as doctors and nurses and hiding in hospitals (that’s a breach of international law because it places civilians at risk).

Could you explain why you think Israel has lost this engagement militarily?

I like your use of the word ‘regrettably’; given what you say about Israel why do you regret that in your opinion its image has been damaged?

And ending with “You’ve lost….again.”
- if you want to be partisan, be partisan. But don’t pretend that you have Israel’s interests at heart. You clearly don’t.

steve brown-

thanks - at least I made you think a little bit.

you came up with vacuous rather than shit hole.

keep up the good work. :)

So, Hamas is using hospitals as cover. If that is the case, and Israel bombs the hospitals, with obvious dire humanitarian consequences that will be beamed across the world, and Hamas survives overall, Israel effectively loses. As I said, to destroy Hamas completely in a war in Gaza means massive, mind boggling humanitarian issues that means its simply not on.

Benji, I agree that Israel should certainly not bomb the hospitals in Gaza. The loss of innocent human life would be catastrophic even if the Israelis succeeded in killing a few of the Hamas leadership.

But if the Jerusalem Post report is accurate, it certainly seems that Hamas are in the hospitals as they’ve been executing injured Fatah supporters there.

But if the Jerusalem Post report is accurate, it certainly seems that Hamas are in the hospitals as they’ve been executing injured Fatah supporters there.

If true, this adds another horrific twist to this grisly tale. It suggests that Hamas is taking advantage of the situation to ’settle scores’ and strengthen its position further still.

The increase of such rocket firings was provoked by Israel’s shattering of a cease-fire with a cross-border raid in November that killed six members of the Hamas security force

The sole purpose of that cross-border raid was to destroy a tunnel that was being built from Gaza into Israel. Tell me honestly - for what purpose do you think that tunnel was being built?

Israel defied the terms of the cease-fire, refusing to lift its deadly blockade

“Deadly” blockade? How many people have actually died because of the blockade?

It agreed to the cease-fire in the first place in order, by its own admission, to undertake intense preparations for the present war.

Utter bollocks.

Yesterday’s top HP story was an Israeli academic getting the German for 400 and 40000 confused.

The real point of that story was that, accepting that the academic added an extra “thousand” for whatever reason, the interviewer did not see fit to correct him.

I am a refugee from the MPAC forum, cruelly expelled from my traditional cyber-lands and forbidden from ever returning. I claim asylum.
Theyr’e really losing the plot over there. This was posted on the main site as a comment earlier by one “Henry”:

“Penelope, the scum bag who has the intelligent span of a celery. I sense a visceral anger on your behalf. Truth hurts does it! Why dont you have your pain soothed by an orange-faced zio-con twit from Hollywood. Or a colorless, sweaty, sinat chinam-chanting zionist from Golders Green. You really should adopt another name.

Rats like you are not even worthy of being the dust under one’s shoes. Sitting 10 hours a day studying Yeshivas, whilst all the time speaking wih an empahsis on the second syllabul, making you sound like you have a wind pipe stuffed up your backside, propagating racist, islamophobic, and aparthedic filth.

The trouble with zionists such as yourself, you simply cannot survive without your lapdog Americans friend. “Hey Mr Bush, come and clean out my anal cavities”

“Hey Jew, if you want 50 F16 jets to kill some children in Palestine, I want you to do to me, what that Jew Monica Lewinsky did to Bill Clinton.”

“Thats ok Mr. President, that is part of my night job”

Worth reporting to Plod I wonder?

I do not know why this whole thing is so important…what makes you people to comment this much on such a war?! what is the fucking deal?!

William, I often manage to get a comment through at MPAC UK. I have never ranted or raved at them in the perjorative language they use against Jews. I have often calmly corrected a misconception or stated something from an Israeli perspective.

When they just don’t like it they ban my IP address. I re-boot my router and carry on. Some of my comments are still up there.

I have absolutely NO doubt that some of the material is antisemitic.

William, that MPAC UK comment is definitely Antisemitic and unlawful. Consider that MPAC UK have a moderator service whereby they have to approve of posts. Ergo, someone at MPAC UK decided this was OK. If HP wants to do something on it then the item is still there on http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5199/102/#jreactions message 82 and I have a screen capture in case they delete it.

I notice even today’s Telegraph comment calls the Israeli response disproportionate. And with Brown and Miliband both calling for a ceasefire, where does this leave the “centre-left” Harry’s Place on the spectrum?

And with Brown and Miliband both calling for a ceasefire, where does this leave the “centre-left” Harry’s Place on the spectrum?

To be fair, at least a couple of HP writers have called for a ceasefire, although yes, it does seem wall-to-wall Israeli war propaganda at times.

Particularly disappointed in Eric Lee whose posts have been frankly very silly.

“…Hamas are in the hospitals … executing injured Fatah supporters”

Indeed, Benjamin. It reminds me of how the allies provoked the Holocaust by attacking Germany.

I recently complained to the BBC about Jeremy Bowen’s lamentably ill-informed coverage from Gaza (emphasis on blockades, no mention of the Hamas charter, Iran’s backing, etc). Here is part of the reply I received: ‘We have every confidence in the reporting of Jeremy Bowen. We appoint all our reporters, including Jeremy, on the basis of their talent experience and competency to do the job we ask of them. With his many years of broadcasting and reporting from the Middle East we believe Jeremy’s reports are more than satisfactory.

‘We believe he, like us, is committed to due impartiality…We’ve also given air-time to representatives from across the political spectrum and our correspondents are equally vigorous in their questioning of interviewees regardless of whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.’

I have written back to say that truth is not the same as impartiality, that we require fact-based reporting, not opinions, from Bowen, and that the BBC ought to be at least as informative as other sources. Anyway, the point is, if others added their voices, it might help to puncture the BBC’s insufferable complacency, perhaps even make Bowen disappear from the airwaves. Now wouldn’t that be nice?

Hi Nicole S, you are absolutely right that one can report ‘facts’ but from a filter of bias. I actually think Bowen is going to get his ass whipped because he only has to interview any of the current Israel spokespeople and he’ll get shredded. They are so good and tight this time.

In fact Bowen doesn’t seem to be up against them. Wonder why?

He’s currently dodging missiles fired at Sderot. It will be good for him and if he can draw fire away from the residents then I hope he gets a posthumous recognition.

“Hey Jew, if you want 50 F16 jets to kill some children in Palestine, I want you to do to me, what that Jew Monica Lewinsky did to Bill Clinton.”

Worth reporting to Plod I wonder?

No. But worth pointing out to Benjamin, TheIre, Hasbara etc. that there are websites like MPAC where their opinions and mind-set are fully appreciated.

With a bit of luck they will heed the call.

Why is it that the Red Cross, the UN, NGOs, (Oxfam comes to mind) and various international bodies are not condemning the use of ambulances and hospitals by Hamas, or protesting the smuggling into Gaza by Hamas of Grad missles. Missles that are used in killing Israeli civilians. Are such actions not in contravention of every rule of war?

Why is it these international bodies rarely object to the violation of human rights by Islamists be it Hamas/Hezbollah/or the Islamic Republic? One can understand why partisan Hamas/Hezbollah advocates on the Left always seek to justify Islamists but I have more difficulty with presumably responsible international organisations turning a blind eye to such violations of human rights.

Its clear that the Red Cross, the UN, NGOs and much of the the mainstream media are suffering from their decades long dalliance with reactionary Leftists. While, they are the first to read chapter and verse from the Geneva Conventions/Laws of War and the use of the Hague Tribunal in relation to Israel or the US. To the terror acts of Islamists they turn a blind eye and a deaf ear. Why for instance isnt the hate speech of all Hamas leaders against Jews being condemned? Why is it considered acceptable to call for the elimination of the Jewish state. Is that not racism?

How can anyone justify the silence on the Left (especially those who cast themselves as champions of human rights) when Islamist regimes like the Sudan or the Islamic Republic use the cover of Gaza to carry out repressive crackdowns in their own States? Case in point the arrest and harrasment of Human Rights Activist and Nobel Prize Winner Shirin Ebadi in Iran.

http://azarmehr.blogspot.com/2009/01/attack-on-shirin-ebadis-house.html

And what about the mainstream media. They supposedly represent centre Left thinking - so why don’t they condemn these human rights violations? The fact is the centre Left no longer exists. On what used to be the Left we have today Centrists who share more in common with the moderate liberal right (HP is a forum of such ex-Leftists) and opposed to them are hard-line reactionary Leftists. There isn’t anything else on the Left.

The Left as represented by the usual mouthpieces on this board Benjamin, Hasbara, HPypocrie, TheIre are militant reactionaries addicted to one thing – a visceral hatred of democratic capitalism. To fight it they ally themselves with every manifestation of facism - be it Stalinist or Islamist. They are pseudo fascists little else.

Reactionary Leftists may prance around in a Keffiyeh, but they care more for the opportunity that Gaza creates for an agitprop victory against the US and Israel than they care about the welfare of the indigenous people anywhere be they Palestinian, Israeli, Iranian, Iraqi or Afgan, or South American.

They can not stomach a man like Abu Mazen, for them he is a “sell out” and a “traitor” as are moderate muslims and Jews everywhere. But a man like Abu Mazen is a traitor to what? The Muslim Brotherhood’s nihilistic vision of a unitary fascistic Caliphate opposed to capitalist democracies.

Underneath the veneer of humanist concern worn by reactionary Leftists is a deep seated disdain for human beings and any form of society except a fascist one where their ideological cohorts are in charge. Its a brutal vision and one that has now infected important mainstream international organisations and NGOs that were established to champion human rights not fight on behalf of facist reaction.

Here FWIW is the based BBC piece that prompted my reaction above.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7811386.stm

The Gaza police force is in its entirity the armed wing of Hamas’ Ezzedin al Qassem Brigade. Anyone with the least knowledge of Gaza knows that - all non Hamas members of the Gaza security forces were brutally hunted down in the 2007 Hamas Coup against Fatah. But you would not know anything about hat is you read this BBC piece or listened to its “humanitarian” Red Cross, and NGO sources.

hi there i have been hearing quite alot of rhetoric from the Palestinian side and al jazeera that israel broke the ceasefire first, this has probably been said before but anyway; they say that during November the 4th israel killed 6 people in a special operations in Palestine, how doe one go about responding to this point, is it even true?
thanks

As I said, to destroy Hamas completely in a war in Gaza means massive, mind boggling humanitarian issues that means its simply not on.

Or, better yet, it’s very much on and the Arabs learn why its better to elect a government who’s fighting forces will be civilized and law abiding instead of a bunch of criminals.

Well done Nicole for writing - not that you were ever going to get anywhere with that but it probably irritated the hell out of them! :)

I think you put your finger on it. It is not Bowen’s impartiality that is in question - or at least it wasn’t until Matt G mentioned his (possible) view of Israel.

But it is this awful, tendentious, opinion-airing under guise of factual reporting that is not just tedious and cross-making but also displays a cavalier attitude to the truth.

And you’re right to mention the (mad) Hamas charter. You might as well have reported on Labour Party wrangles in the 1980s without mentioning clause 4. of its constitution (committing it to public ownership of the means of production etc). For ME reporters to constantly omit any mention of its charter - its purpose as an organisation - is unforgiveable.

It works both ways of course. It would help if we knew whether Likud was still committed to the Eretz Israel ideal - another bonkers scheme to bring war and unhappiness to the region.

Here’s Bowen spouting off again:

“Hamas has had a long term ceasefire with Israel as an official policy for some time. I have spent quite a bit of time in the last year talking to Hamas leaders, so even though it is next to impossible to reach them at the moment, I think I have a reasonable grasp of their mindset. They think long term. ”

The usual ponderous pontificating. He knows…but…he’s not telling us. Or rather all he tells us is that Hamas will claim victory if they emerge like Hezbollah still functioning after the Israeli battering.

That’s hardly a long term plan.

The long term plan must be something else.

I think we know. But Bowen isn’t telling.

And they try to tell us the Protocols are forgery…

The Give Israel Your United Support (GIYUS) website hosts a downloadable desktop tool called Megaphone. The program alerts users to opinion polls and “talkback” features on news sites so they can respond with pro-Israel views. In turn, users can alert GIYUS operators to any opinion polls they think should be targeted.

Protocol No. 12: WE CONTROL THE PRESS
“NOT A SINGLE ANNOUNCEMENT WILL REACH THE PUBLIC WITHOUT OUR CONTROL. Even now this is already being attained by us inasmuch as all news items are received by a few agencies, in whose offices they are focused from all parts of the world. These agencies will then be already entirely ours and will give publicity only to what we dictate to them.”

and more from the PROTOCOLS:

“13. In order to direct our newspaper militia in this sense we must take special and minute care in organizing this matter. Under the title of central department of the press we shall institute literary gatherings at which our agents will without attracting attention issue the orders and watchwords of the day. By discussing and controverting, but always superficially, without touching the essence of the matter, our organs will carry on a sham fight fusillade with the official newspapers solely for the purpose of giving occasion for us to express ourselves more fully than could well be done from the outset in official announcements, whenever, of course, that is to our advantage. “

Field, I’m sure you’re right: complaints from the public probably do irritate the hell out of the BBC, hence their pompous, self-righteous replies. All the more reason to do it. There have to be some consolations in these difficult times. Be sure to point out the numerous relevant facts that have escaped their notice. I found Jonathan Rugman on Channel 4 news this evening almost as bad, so I might write to say I shall never again watch the channel (no great hardship), making one viewer less for their advertisers.

Nicole S, you really should check out this article Mel, Fabricant and a complaint to the BBC http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3206981/an-mp-is-shocked-by-al-beeb.thtml

I received notification of it in my e-mail ;)

Irene, are you for real, or someone’s idea of a prank? If real, you have my sympathy. Difficult to interpret your derangement otherwise.

Gaza broke ceasefire, for tiove

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008- all attacks

June 2008 - start of ceasefire 19th June http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#June

Note the breach of ceasefire on 23rd June followed by three rockets 24th June.

Forget the November bollox, its a smokescreen

Irene, you are a DOLL!!!!

Protocol No. 12: WE CONTROL THE PRESS
“NOT A SINGLE ANNOUNCEMENT WILL REACH THE PUBLIC WITHOUT OUR CONTROL

Not in the Guardian, Independent, Channel Four, Reuters, AP, AFP and BBC???

I did hear someone on the ten o’clock news say “And now for the main Jews headlines tonight”. News - Jews - sounds very similar.

————-
I was also analysing some of your writing patterns and some of the language you use. An interesting clue when I referred to your ugliness meaning you were short of male company.

You came back and mentioned you “Stud husband” a VERY curious expression. My suspicions is strongly that you aren’t someone with an original British family background but rather someone who IS British but who grew up in a mixed culture background.

I have considered that you might be an ex-orthodox Jew who has turned self-hating but MORE likely you are a reasonably liberated Muslim girl with a Muslim husband.

You see “Stud Husband” isn’t what a British girl would say. She’d be cruder if that is what she wanted to articulate. She’d be more graphic but you still have some religious reserve that constrains you to say “Stud Husband”. Its not a contemporary type of description. In fact, there is a possibilty that you have no husband and no boyfriend because you are in the ‘rebel from my religion’ phase. If you had a partner I think you would have made a different response as to sexual prowess. “Stud Husband” is what I might expect to be a phrase amongst girls who discuss potential husbands and yet who can’t be too crude about it.

You dealt with the word ‘fuck’ when Gene threw it at you (I think). But you did so in a very formulaic way as if you had to acknowledge the word in order to stay in the game of credibility but you never used a response with ‘fuck’ in any creative way. Its because the word ‘fuck’ isn’t part of you normal lexicon - in your cultural straight-jacket its a taboo word.

You could have said “My husband is a fantastic fuck” but that doesn’t seem as if its something you are comfortable as saying.

You are a young Islamist Radical Muslim woman/girl with a Jew hate core.

I am not often wrong.

fao Rostam Farrokhzadeh

Surely the reason why many of us expect higher standards from the US, UK and Israel is (a) that they are supposed to be liberal accountable democracies (b) are responsible members of an international community that respects human rights conventions and (c) are acting on behalf of us as the electorate and taxpayers.

We could organise demonstations against Hamas, Heabollah, Al Qaeda but what is the point? First, it is commonly accepted by evereyone on the rational left that their politics is repugnant and their acts of violence are disgusting. Second, we have no leverage or power over their actions. Third, as far as I’m aware, my taxes don’t pay for their acts of war.

The point of protest is to bring pressure to bear on our government and its allies. Not just to condemn everything that’s wrong in the world.

Finally, for your informatoin there are plenty of us on the left who actively condemn Hamas, the Iranian, Sudanese and Saudi regimes as well as the current actions of the IDF and Israeli government and its allies in the White House.

Take a look at the international section of the TUC website (as one example) and you’ll find active support for trade unionists fighting repression in Iran.

I understand that placing all ‘the left’ in one little homogenous camp of unhinged Trot apologists for Saddam, Hamas and Mugabe is a useful way of justifying your lurch to the right.

But its a strawman argument that ignores the thousands of us who have stayed true to democratic socialist principles without feeling the need to eulogise on behalf of the IDF or Republican Party.

You gigantic twat.

Maven: you are usually wrong, and so puffed up you think only your opinion matters. You are in short, a moron, not a maven. And the proof is that you would waste exchanging words with a deranged blatant anti-semite who believes a czarist forgery based on a french satire is the real thing.

Once you realise that the Muslim Brotherhood actually dictate the line at Al Jazz, the Qatari based and Qaradawi ‘influenced’, TV station that the BBC has a big investment in both personel and millions of our money pumped in to develop it things start to make a bit more sense don’t they?

Add to that the takeover of BBC Arabic broadcasts by Islamists a few years ago. Now how is the BBC independent and objective again?

‘reduced the rocket attacks to a trickle through a ceasefire with Hamas.’

Now that is an odd definition of a ceasefire. And when the ceasefire was not renewed by Hamas hundreds of rockets and mortars they had saved up as a result of ‘the lull’ came over. Israel responds with their own well-planned contingency.

I am struck but how much Intelligence the Israeli Defence Force seem to have. They clearly have had a lot of help from inside Gaza.

Maven, those links you provided the first doesn’t seem to have any data.

Secondly i cannot use anything relating to wikipedia my lecturer will not allow it.

Anyway the number of those mortars rockets seem to be very low as if they were launched, by other factions, this is supported by statements from [i am not sure] i think from articles in Haaretz.

In fact i just emailed Gideon Levvy [writer for haaretz], and he supported my little research so far in that Israel refused to recognize Hamas even though a senior official Mahmoud Zahar stated when Hamas took office, that they wanted to engage in ‘constructive dialogue” with israel, and wanted to talk about a ‘two state solution’.

There is an analysis of the mainstream media which I would like to see, if only someone would collect and publish the data.

I’d like to know, for each newspaper and TV news channel, which zones of this conflict are covered directly by their staff, and which are covered by stringers from the local community.

Because I have this suspicion that there are very few western staffers in Gaza.

If they are publishing items from stringers, whether print, video, or still photographs, they should be telling us that, up front. I don’t trust anything they are getting from stringers.