Harry’s Place

Most non-Muslims who go to such marches don’t really have an interest in exploring Islam: they care about human rights.

Yet they never care enough to hold massive demonstrations against human rights violations by Muslims.

The two are utterly and undeniably inseperable, as you well know: you were supporting Hamas.

I’ve just read the comments on Sunny’s CIF piece and a large majority of them are anti Hamas/Islamists and the SWP/StW. There are lots of people saying they would never go again on StW rallies having had bad experiences.

Sunny also notes “90% of the march was old skool socialists and Muslims.”

Looks like SWP/RR (actually - do Respect actually exist any more ? I saw nothing of them at the demo) are losing support and credos even amongst Guardianistas.

I didn’t come to express solidarity with Hamas, nor want to come to a religious march.

Poor thing.

“And as Hundal rightly states, it doesn’t help the cause. Not one bit.”
Well, it’s nice to have a piece on here that does want to help the cause of Palestinian rights.

I heard “Allah Akhbar” chants on Saturday but wouldn’t agree at all that those chanting it represented the dominant forces on the march. There is of course quite a difference between Islamic and Islamist organisations and the latter seemed to be in a minority. The content of the chanting and the placards was overwhelmingly “Free Palestine” and “End the Seige”.

When it comes to mass mobilisations and you want to support the general cause rather than find an excuse to do nothing, you can at least choose who you march immediately behind or in front of . The contingent I was with (Jewish Socialists’ Group) found a politically comfortable spot in front of Jews for Justice for Palestinians and behind the Welsh Socialist Choir. And some members of Women Against Fundamentalism were marching close to us too.

As a secularist I would have preferred it if the Stop the War Coalition had formed itself as a secular umbrella under which those of faith and those of no faith could stand, rather than make the alliance at leadership level with MAB, but the clock can’t be turned back and the priority in the current situation, for any secularists who genuinely care about saving Palestinian lives, is to do everything possible to ensure there are mass demonstrations to put pressure on governments around the world to try to bring about a ceasefire.

I admit I thought I detected a distinct ‘Who are these people…and what the fuck have I got myself into?’ look on Annie Lennox’s face when I saw her on tee-vee the other day.

Usually when someone starts shouting Allahu Ackbar on a tune train, people end up dead and injured. So there’s always that small ray of light, I suppose.

A wha?

“but the clock can’t be turned back and the priority in the current situation, for any secularists who genuinely care about saving Palestinian lives, is to do everything possible to ensure there are mass demonstrations to put pressure on governments around the world to try to bring about a ceasefire.”

Or (infinitely preferably) we should put pressure on the fascist Hamas scum to surrender. Better for everyone (except fascist scum) don’t you think ?

BTW David as a Jew what did you think of the BMI’s “Stop the Holocaust in Gaza” placards that were everywhere on Saturday ?

In the bigger picture I think this is a war on the Palestinian people rather than just a war with Hamas. And I suspect the 10,000 israelis who marched in Tel Aviv last Saturday night calling for an end to the war feel similarly.

Does your description of Hamas purely as “fascist scum” also apply to those within the Israeli hierarchy who helped Sheikh Yassin form and fund the organisation as a counterweight to Arafat’s secular PLO in the 80s?

What do I think of the BMI placards? Not a lot. Never have been keen on Holocaust analogies. The situation of 500 deaths in 10 days including many children, and 3000 hospitalised without sufficient medical supplies because of Israel’s blockade of the last two years, is horrific enough in it’s own terms and doesn’t need exaggerating.

And when you use up the most hyperbolic analogies to describe things now, what language will you have to describe the situation when things get worse, as they will with the ground invasion in full swing and phosphorus bombs being used. BTW have you seen Waltz With Bashir? Evidently Israel’s leaders haven’t.

“Does your description of Hamas purely as “fascist scum” also apply to those within the Israeli hierarchy who helped Sheikh Yassin form and fund the organisation as a counterweight to Arafat’s secular PLO in the 80s?”

Yes, if they did do this (which is disputed as you know), I think it was a very bad idea. Care to provide a link to an unbiased source for this tale BTW ?

Even if it were true, Hamas is and has been a sworn enemy of Israel for 20 years and is a deeply unpleasant terrorist organisation. But you go on a march where all the vitriol is against Israel and people are carrying “We are Hamas” banners. I only saw Peter Tatchell there opposing Hamas in any way.

If you claim to be Left Wing and attend such a fascist excusing rally without loudly protesting the fascists you are a disgrace to progressive values.

IMHO (of course)

“As a secularist I would have preferred it if the Stop the War Coalition had formed itself as a secular umbrella under which those of faith and those of no faith could stand, rather than make the alliance at leadership level with MAB, but the clock can’t be turned back and the priority in the current situation, for any secularists who genuinely care about saving Palestinian lives, is to do everything possible to ensure there are mass demonstrations to put pressure on governments around the world to try to bring about a ceasefire.”

But David has it not occurred to you that it is precisely the MAB type of input that detracts from the message you want to get across - just as it is the equivalent Hamas far right ideology that lies at the root of the of the problems in Gaza.

MMNonsense “Care to provide a link to an unbiased source for this tale” re Israel funding Hamas.

it was reported by the UPI press agency terrorism expert Richard Sale who confirmed his analysis with former CIA personnel - not the usual left wing sources I read, admittedly but perhaps more acceptable to centre right opinion. I’ll try and dig up the link.

Tatchell wasn’t alone in criticising Hamas. The leaflet given out by the Jewish Socialists’ Group made clear we were in solidarity with the Palestinian people under siege and bombardment without sharing the politics of Hamas. We gave out hundreds of them, many to Muslims, and nobody challenged us for not supporting Hamas.

Among a crowd of 25,000 or more I saw one banner saying “We are Hamas”. This was a march and rally against the slaughter being carried out in Gaza, not a cheerleaders gig for Hamas.

If you would have been there rather than relying on second and third hand reports your post might have been more accurate.

I’ll back David up about Hamas signs - I saw not a single one. There was one Hamas speaker, out of about a dozen others. But the event was by no-means a pro-Hamas event

David R

During Hamas’s coup in Gaza last year, hundreds of Palestinians - lots of Fatah members in fact - were slaughtered.

The NYT and the WaPo claim that Hamas is presently massacring ‘collaborators’: ie Fatah members.

Is there a demonstration against that?

If there were, do you think that the BMI - founded by a man named by the BBC as a founder of Hamas - would be co-organising it.

Come to think of it, why did you go on a demonstration co-organised by a Hamas affiliated outfit! Sure, you’re in favour of a ceasefire - but why go on a demo organised by a fascist organisation.

Don’t tell me that the organisers don’t matter - that who turns up counts. The BNP have a policy to provide more council housing,but you wouldn’t go on a demo called by them, would you?

Richard Sale, “Israel gave major aid to Hamas,” UPI, Feb. 24, 2001
http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

Err I was there. see here : http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/03/from-the-london-demo/

You should read HP more often :)

“There was one Hamas speaker”

What - who, when ?

TheIrie - you’re giving us great stuff here.

Here’s a tip Sally, next time you go on a march with a heavy Muslim presence and use public transport where fellow travellers start chanting Allah Akhbar may I suggest you get off at the next stop and call the police. We seem to have been here before. Don’t take risks.

Not sure I should read HP more often but I see that you were there at the end!
The demo was called by a coalition of organisations. We responded to the call from STWC, which we are affiliated to, and Palestine Solidarity who we have cooperated with on other occasions, to support a demo whose slogans we agreed with. Can’t see the problem here. Have you been on a different demo calling for a ceasefire? if you are organising one, let us know and we’ll consider supporting it and don’t tell me you won’t go on it if we go on it.

Richard Sale, “Israel gave major aid to Hamas,” UPI, Feb. 24, 2001
http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

And?

Iran and Syria do that now and Hamas have gone animal. A sick, mad animal that needs to be put down as it tries to steamroller kill as many people going like a train on its Koran fuel. We can’t afford to miss the boat this time, its plane that we have to make them hit the buffers at high speed.

What took the Guardian bloke so long to notice? It was like that on the big anti-Iraq war demo all those years ago: when I got to the Boudicca statue it seemed to be covered with young men, faces covered, shouting stuff about Israel and holding ‘MAB’ placards. ‘What the hell’s MAB? The Queen of the fairies?’ was our reaction. The placards were everywhere, but we had to press on to the stage in the park because we were meeting a friend who was recording radio interviews. The crowd in front of the stage looked like something from the Ayatollah’s funeral - it was fucking weird. The most depressing thing was you felt that Blair and co would look at the footage - Galloway bellowing and a sea of black clad islamists chanting - and think - ‘bunch of nutters, nothing to do with general public opinion, let’s go for it!’. The SWP arseholes had already screwed up what had been nicely longhairy May Day demos, but I never dreamed they’d end up allied to fascists. Depressing. I haven’t been on a demo since that big war one, and the SWP/MAB are the reason why.

In the bigger picture I think this is a war on the Palestinian people

There is no such thing.
There are Arabs who declared their intention to annihilate the Jews - a war on the Jews.

Why would you affiliate to STWC, which is run by the North Korea supporting CPB, the Atzmon-pimping SWP, and various Hamas affiliated bodies?

Isn’t your political compass a bit fucked up, here?

Why would you affiliate to a body which is an alliance between far Left and far Right totalitarians?

I thought you were a fluffy Bundist!!

Next article: I went to a demo to end the suffering of the poor German civilians in 1945, and was saddened to find myself surrounded by Nazis.

“There are Arabs who declared their intention to annihilate the Jews - a war on the Jews.”
Not just Arabs but also Persians etc.

I do not know from which one of the Jewish organisations for Hamas David Rosenberg comes. What is interesting, those Jewish fellows demonstrating for Hamas pretend to be brave.

But it needs no courage whatsoever to repeat Guardian’s standing texts in London. Whoever does it is regarded by his comrades as a “good Jew”.

And it does not need courage to blame in Tel Aviv Israel for the situation. And I am glad that this is so. Those people should not be called names, one should argue with them if that is possible.
Unfortunately in many cases it is impossible.

Last night I watched Al Jazeera (English version) a very long interview with Eyal Sivan a film director. He advocated the one state solution and was asked by the moderator if he does not want to have a Jewish state. No he said he wants the Jews to be a minority with equal rights in the Middle East. So Sivan was given praise by Al Jazeera. He knows very well, that his business will not suffer from making such declarations. On the contrary. There is a market, for showing the shadow existing in Israel.

Silvan’s declaration is hypocrisy and falsehood. For anybody who knows under what repression and discrimination minorities live in the Middle East, knows what would expect a Jewish minority, if any Jews would be alive after an Arab victory. I think about the fate of the Kurds in Syria or the discrimination of the Copts in Egypt. And I did not mention yet the Hundred Thousands of Muslims in Darfur killed by Muslims.

Let’s say that there is an organisation that is formed to protest about unemployment. It is run by a political party that believes only violent socialist revolution will solve unemployment.

You’re left wing, but you believe that better economic management, combined with welfare is the solution. But you don’t really mind having revolutionaries running the coalition, because they’re left wing and so are you.

The coalition also contains supporters of the BNP, who believe that a conspiracy of rich Jews are bringing blacks into Britain, and by exposing this Jewish plot, unemployment will be solved.

But you don’t mind, because the coalition never talks about Jews. It talks about ‘plutocrats with dual loyalties’ instead.

They invite speakers who support attacks on Jews, and which come from organisations which attack Jews.

But none of this matters, because you are a socialist, and the coalition is run by socialists, and therefore it is simply incredible to believe that they could really have formed an alliance with genocidal racists, and so - you decide - they can’t have done so.

And, if anybody suggests otherwise, perhaps THEY are working for the ‘plutocrats with dual loyalties’.

I mean, it is possible, isn’t it? Eh?

Being affiliated to a broad movement doesn’t mean you suspend your critical faculties about some of the other people on board. It would be nice to go on a demo some time just me and my best and most trusted mates and we could make all the speeches - not sure it would have an impact.

The alternative is to join a large demonstration that can have an impact although you can’t vet everyone that’s coming on it. And you make a judgement. Last saturday, a significant number of Jews made that judgement and joined in a demonstration (and have to repeat it here for the seemingly visually challenged) not about support for Hamas, but about freedom for Paletinians from the bombardment and blockade, the same slogans that people were marching for in Tel Aviv and capital cities across the world last weekend, including 30,000 and 10,000 respectively in those wel known neo-nazi cities New York and Toronto…

Now some people here might think everyone marching last weekend was a genocidal nazi antisemite, and they are powerful words to hurl at your political opponents, but I think you know the truth.

BTW any signs of any demos here or anywhere in favour of what Israel is doing? Only asking.

To the tune of “We are the World”:

We are Hamas, we are the killers,
we are the ones who want to kill all Jews,
so let’s begin it.
If there’s a rocket - launch it,
then whine when you’re hit back,
with useful idiots on your side you can attack!

As the discussion of the demo has been largely moved to another thread, I’ll repeat my request here.

In order to faciliate the driving of antisemites out of the Palestinian solidarity movement (a goal I assume HP and I share), Irene’s identity needs to be researched.

To do this, I need the IP address he/she is posting from.

What is it?

I’m assuming HP don’t have a policy of actively helping antisemites hide their identities?

David T - love your fantasies about the left and the BNP but we can have a more rational discussion about what is actually happening in the real world and specifically about what is being done in Gaza. Even the very cautious Peace Now movement who always stay safely snuggled within the Zionist concensus in Israel are calling for it to stop. Organisations twinned/linked with Palestinian villages are receiving email describing what is happening on the ground which are unbearable to read. The information is there if people want to know but I guess some people here would rathe spend their time thinking up reasons for doing nothing.

I’m off now but will try and catch up with discussions tomorrow or when nearly oxfordian says something sensible - no, it’s OK, I will come back tomorrow. Those that do want to do something even if it means standing with people you don’t see eye to eye with - see you at next Saturday’s demo.

Edelweiss Pirate - we’re talking about it here :

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/05/the-peace-meal-approach/#comment-277357

As the discussion of the demo has been largely moved to another thread, I’ll repeat my request here.

I’m assuming HP don’t have a policy of actively helping antisemites hide their identities?

Edelweiss, if this is any help I have made an attempt to try and identify what sort of person Irene is.
____________________

I was also analysing some of your writing patterns and some of the language you use. An interesting clue when I referred to your ugliness meaning you were short of male company.

You came back and mentioned you “Stud husband” a VERY curious expression. My suspicions is strongly that you aren’t someone with an original British family background but rather someone who IS British but who grew up in a mixed culture background.

I have considered that you might be an ex-orthodox Jew who has turned self-hating but MORE likely you are a reasonably liberated Muslim girl with a Muslim husband.

You see “Stud Husband” isn’t what a British girl would say. She’d be cruder if that is what she wanted to articulate. She’d be more graphic but you still have some religious reserve that constrains you to say “Stud Husband”. Its not a contemporary type of description. In fact, there is a possibilty that you have no husband and no boyfriend because you are in the ‘rebel from my religion’ phase. If you had a partner I think you would have made a different response as to sexual prowess. “Stud Husband” is what I might expect to be a phrase amongst girls who discuss potential husbands and yet who can’t be too crude about it.

You dealt with the word ‘fuck’ when Gene threw it at you (I think). But you did so in a very formulaic way as if you had to acknowledge the word in order to stay in the game of credibility but you never used a response with ‘fuck’ in any creative way. Its because the word ‘fuck’ isn’t part of you normal lexicon - in your cultural straight-jacket its a taboo word.

You could have said “My husband is a fantastic fuck” but that doesn’t seem as if its something you are comfortable as saying.

You are a young Islamist Radical Muslim woman/girl with a Jew hate core.

I am not often wrong.

it was reported by the UPI press agency terrorism expert Richard Sale who confirmed his analysis with former CIA personnel - not the usual left wing sources I read, admittedly but perhaps more acceptable to centre right opinion. I’ll try and dig up the link.

HP is not center right. The reason the far left hates us is that we ARE left. Remember antifascism?

Humm… the SWP should inmediately create the SWP International Anti-Zionist Brigade and send it to Gaza.

Forces:

a) 7 four-stars Generals
b) 3 Sergeants
c) 2 Corporals
d) 1 Private

First line troops: d)
Second line troops: a), b) and c)
Support troops (cooking, laundry, etc.): d)

First [and unique] Directive: operations will only be possible when d) is not actually busy: “cooking, doing laundry, etc.”…

Pierrot said:”Humm… the SWP should inmediately create the SWP International Anti-Zionist Brigade and send it to Gaza.

Forces:

a) 7 four-stars Generals
b) 3 Sergeants
c) 2 Corporals
d) 1 Private

First line troops: d)
Second line troops: a), b) and c)
Support troops (cooking, laundry, etc.): d)

First [and unique] Directive: operations will only be possible when d) is not actually busy: “cooking, doing laundry, etc.”…”

Ha ha ha I like that one. So very apt.

Maybe the SWPCC should have been made to spend a few months in the firing line in Southern Israel first.

Josh is left-wing? haha! you sound like those neo-cons who claim they were the true left… before they sidled up to Bush and gave up all pretence.

If you claim to be Left Wing and attend such a fascist excusing rally without loudly protesting the fascists you are a disgrace to progressive values.

Erm, this is rather rubbish. Most people at the protest weren’t shouting Allah hu akbar, but a significant minority were. Which was annoying. but as I said, Sikhs do it too and that pisses the hell outof me.

It doesn’t piss me off because I hate religious sentiments (because I don’t) but because they’re mixing religion with politics. And it excludes a broader number of people.

As for the ‘We are Hamas’ flags… you say one, you took a pic. That doesn’t make the whole march fascist. I’ll be there next week.

David T - love your fantasies about the left

Fantasies about the left? Rich indeed, coming from a chap who’s part of an absolutely miniscule group of ethnic Jews who firmly believe in the politics of Bundism, totally rootbound in the Ashkenazi Jewish communities of Eastern Europe of circa 1880-1943…

Demonstrations in favour of Israel’s actions:

1,000 black people in Harlem:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3650533,00.html

12,000 in Paris demonstrate for Israel:

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3650405,00.html

But in any case, how significant are demonstrations? Yes, they’re the standard resort of Trotskyist and Islamist totalitarian organizations who call out their cohorts, with their standard issue banners and slogans (and of course there’s always Neturei Karta to demonstrate that Real Religious Jews think Israel is the worst thing since sliced challah).

As my dad used to say, es toig oif gitte kapores……

David Rosenberg and the Jewish Socialists Group. Living fossils. Or perhaps stinking fish? But still ready to offer a Pilger-style self-justification for marching alongside wildly antisemitic clerical totalitarians, along the lines of
we can’t afford to be choosy. Well, perhaps it does make them look positively avant garde and progressive. After all, the Islamist totalitarians want to set the clock back to the 6th century, whereas the JSG wants to set it back only to 1943….

Gives zionism a good name, I say.

Anyone seen Sunny’s piece on the demo in London? It’s been approvingly relayed by the Saucer People, which should give people fair warning.

Here’s an excerpt:

“I had an uncomfortable feeling I couldn’t articulate until I was leaving via Charing Cross tube. It was crowded inside as we made our way to the trains. Two girls started to chant “We are Hamas” (I’m not, thank you very much) but were almost immediately drowned out by “Free free Palestine” before I had the chance to get annoyed. And then it came: Allah hu Akbar, Allah hu Akbar on repeat. Our fellow white travellers said little.

And therein lies my problem. I came to the march to express solidarity with Palestinians and express my anger at Israel’s bombings. I didn’t come to express solidarity with Hamas, nor want to come to a religious march. If I wanted to hear “God is Great” I could have gone to a mosque or a gurudwara. But I didn’t. People can say what they want – freedom of speech etc – but I think this encapsulates a broader problem.”

Interesting notion that, the one that going to demos should involve as a right only hearing things you “want to hear”. Perhaps the organizers should have arranged with the other demonstrators before hand and made them agree not to say anything Sunny “didn’t want to hear”.

Honestly, the man must be involved in some sort of smugness competition - and Kamm has recently gone stratospheric so I imagine the compeition is stark.

Unless you’re concerned that the “broader problem” was anything substantial, it wasn’t.

“But many Britons, despite their sympathies, won’t I suspect because they feel such events are dominated by religious types who like to shout Allah hu Akbar, and rudeboys with kaffiyeh bandanas who like to prance around in front of the television. Let me tell it to you straight: it doesn’t help the cause.”

Geddit? Britons don’t want to march with people too overtly Muslim. As if the type of people inclined to oppose to the butchery in Gaza are so paranoid and precious that they would be alienated by a group of young men “brazingly” praising their God.
Callum | Homepage | 5 Jan, 23:37 | #

Sunny:

As for the ‘We are Hamas’ flags… you say one, you took a pic. That doesn’t make the whole march fascist. I’ll be there next week.

Of course you will be there next week. And you will be just as guilty of marching in solidarity with terrorist-supporting theocratic creeps (you know they will be there) as you were this past Saturday. Very progressive of you.

Sunny Hundal is a thick, attention-seeking media whore.

No more, no less.

No antisemite, no progressive, just a reactionary liberal who takes to the streets when the chances of getting his mug on Sky News (whom he slags off despite them paying him to flick through newspapers) next to a B-list celeb such as Annie Lennox look good.

That’s why he’ll be out next week and why he wasn’t on the Darfur march. That’s why he didn’t register a squeak when a similar number of Palestinian refugees in Nahr al Bared were killed by the Lebanese army last year: there was no mileage for self-promotion in that.

His attention-seeking exploits are well documented: this is a man whose goateed lips shat the classic “It’s time for brown people to vote Tory“. His ego is also well documented: when challenged on stating the anti-war Andrew Anthony was pro-war he didn’t have the grace to admit he was wrong and a debate with Norman Geras concluded with him misquoting himself rather than concede his woolly liberal argument was based on little more than huff and puff. That he moves solely in media whore circles is evident by his recent claim that “the only Asian girls I’ve known do hardcore drugs did cocaine for recreational use.”

It is interesting to note how he likes to play the victim and slag the comments boxes off here as often as he can. Fair enough, there are a lot of ucnts around these parts (and over at his blog too - recent threads have been locked due to Jew-baiting).

But on a recent post he claims:

This reminds of the controversy around the earlier ‘March for Free Expression’ demo, following the Motoons, whereby various Muslims were accusing free-speechers of siding with the BNP because they were also at the march. Yet, with the shoe on the other foot, the comments boxes of Harry’s Place is overflowing with people asking if I was comfortable marching with ‘Nazis and fascists’. Love the hypocrisy.

In Hundal World, a free-speech demo organised by 2 individuals (a socialist and a libertarian) which explicitly told the BNP they were unwelcome is somehow comparable to a march organised by well-known Islamist and antisemitic groups. If the March for Free Expression had been organised by Nick Griffin or if the BMI, PSC and co had been told to stay at home on Saturday he might have a point, but as it stands he is left defending himself with a straw man that would make Aunt Sally proud.

That there were one or two “We are Hamas” banners is neither here nor there: Hundal is doing a good enough job of discrediting himself without his detractors over-egging the pudding.

How times change. From many moons ago when his New Generation Network was all the rage:

Oh dear. One of the most “controversial” points I made during the launch of NGN was that anti-racists should reject any alliance with Islamist movements such as Hizb ut-Tahrir bcause those organisations were themselves full of prejudice. I pointed to the example of Blink promoting this march which included HuT and Azzam Tammimi amongst others.

The problem is that Blink is run by well meaning anti-racists who have no clue about Islamist organisations. One individual in particular, who I will not name, joined Blink a few years ago and has since been running their ‘department-for-coordinating-with-Muslim-organisations’. In practice that has meant signing up to whatever the MCB says and joining any rally even if it includes HuT. This is just further evidence of their cluelessness.

A complete about-turn, but hardly surprising: the New Generation Network is long forgotten.

And thus his own John Kerry flip-flop moment: Hundal was against marching with Islamists before he was for it.

Hypocrite.

David Rosenberg and the Jewish Socialists Group. Living fossils. Or perhaps stinking fish? But still ready to offer a Pilger-style self-justification for marching alongside wildly antisemitic clerical totalitarians, along the lines of
we can’t afford to be choosy

They are just hoping to be killed last - or spared to live in Dhimmitude foir services rendered. Maybe they will get a job sharpening the knives or washing away the blood.

“we can’t afford to be choosy. Well, perhaps it does make them look positively avant garde and progressive. After all, the Islamist totalitarians want to set the clock back to the 6th century, whereas the JSG wants to set it back only to 1943….
Gives zionism a good name, I say.”

Judy, if despite what people see in front of their eyes on the television we’re actually helping Zionism in your eyes then why get your knickers in a twist about it?

Of course the Bund was inspirational and their leaders like Erlich in the 1930s very prescient about the result of the triumph of Zionism:
“If a Jewish state should arise in Palestine , its spiritual climate will be eternal fear of the external enemy (Arabs); eternal struggle for every foot of groudn and for every bit of work with the internal enemy (Arabs)…Is this a climate in which fredom, progress and democracy can grow?”

But the Bund had its best and worst days in the late 19th and 20th centuries, and we’re in 2009.

It’s actually a lot of Zionists who are stuck in the past and can’t get out the groove. They act and talk and write like it’s 1948, and it’s touch and go whether a Jewish state will survive - instead of recognising that a powerful state has been built, bristling with advanced weaponry sold by its masters in the USA as some return for their very, very, excessive subsidy, that is a threat to others in the region, most immediately the Palestinians.

So Judy, come out of 1948 and embrace 2009 (and open your eyes while you’re at it) otherwise you’ll be the one stinking like old gefilte fish.

On the contrary. In 1948, Israel was a weak and barely developed emerging nation. The Israel of today is a thriving diverse and independent state, a technological and cultural powerhouse — no more controlled by the US than the UK is, and if anything, less under US influence. There’s no struggle for every foot of ground and every bit of work. And yes, freedom, progress and democracy are more alive there than in any other country around. If you want to see the spiritual state of Israel, read the huge range of blogs.

But never mind. In the fossil mindset of the Jewish Socialists Group fantasy of a 2009 Bund, progress and democracy means marching alongside Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and the whole Islamist/Trotskyist totalitarian fan club. And screaming support for a regime which proclaims its intention to murder Jewish children not just in Israel; but everywhere. Stinking fish, indeed.

David Rosenberg,
Your attitude is very strange. You believe to be the only one to be informed about the conflict Israel-Hamas and about Israel/Zionism and you accuse all those who don’t share your very feeble way of argumentation to be backwards and to think in the terms of the past.

But fact is, that Hamas knows very well that it does not need to have sophisticated weapons in order to terrorize one million Israelis. Some of their weapons are sophisticated and they come from the Iran. The plan is, to shell areas in Israel and make life impossible or very hard so as to induce Israelis to leave the place. This was done by the Hezbollah the Iranian branch in Lebanon. And the same strategy is followed by Hamas.

Please do not give us this story about Israel being the slave of the USA. Israel has an interesting story, when it comes to the supplying of weapons. First it was Prague (with the consent of the USSR) selling Israel weapons starting in April 1948. The USA declared embargo on Israel at that time. Then the French and the British sold weapons and Israel created a very profitable weapons industry. Only in the late sixties the USA became a supplier of aircraft.

Now to your statement “that is a threat to others in the region, most immediately the Palestinians” I am not going to recapitulate the story of the conflict. But in summer 2005 Israel has evacuated the Gaza strip and the Palestinians there had the possibility of coexisting with Israel. Who then continued to fire on Israeli towns and villages?

You imply that Israel is responsible for the fact, that women and minorities are discriminated in most Arab countries, for the high rate of analphabetic population. If Israel would not be existing life in the Middle East would be a real paradise, this is what you try to sell us.

It would be much easier to discuss and less time-consuming if people didn’t make up what others’ have said:

Karl - you made a rational response to some of my comments and then invented this:
“You imply that Israel is responsible for the fact, that women and minorities are discriminated in most Arab countries, for the high rate of analphabetic population. If Israel would not be existing life in the Middle East would be a real paradise, this is what you try to sell us.”

Well, someone else may have said it - I haven’t got the time or patience to look back but it wasn’t me!

I think you and Judy are seriously underestimating the significance of the massive economic subsidy Israel has received from the USA for many years. Israel has long been by far the biggest recipient of American aid in the world, and, on the basis that there is no such thing as a free lunch, you have to ask what it demands in return (beyond lots of arms contracts and arms testing).

If the US subsidy was massively reduced or disappeared altogether Israel would be forced into a much more realistic approach to securing a peaceful coexistence internally and with its neighbours.

I`m quite sure Mr HUndal KNEW that radical isalmists would be present in spades.

It ’s the equivlent of attending a rally orginsed by Brownshirts, and then being surprised and outraged that Brownshirts were present.

Half of Hundal’s constituency are South Asian Muslims, and so his attendance at the demos was a cynical attempt to pander to that crowd.

One wonders what he’d charge for a rim-job