Harry’s Place

This sums it up perfectly. The Truth hurts so don’t expect much from the usual suspects. Excellent.

This is no surprise, but it’s great that you reported it. Hamas apologists need to be reminded of this.

A new one on me, the hamas huggers are now reviving the ‘jews as Christ Killers’ smear.
http://www.zmag.org/blog/view/2337
scum

Regrettably I think it is only a matter of time before some commentator implies that this dramatisation is in some way jewish propaganda. I know it will happen but it is still a deeply depressing prospect.

Our children are considered legitimate targets throughout the arab/muslim word for a very long time. Nothing new there.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3651267,00.html

I wonder if egyptian children will also become legitimate target for Hamas after this:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052974.html

TonyS

Indeed. Things are said now which I wouldn’t have believed possible just ten or twenty years ago.

Funnily enough i had a similar conversation last night about the new Daniel Craig film about jewish partisans.

MattG

I’m not sure that I’d want to watch a fictional retelling of the Anne Frank story, but the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam is certainly well worth a visit.

Unfortunately, with attacks on Jews and gays in Amsterdam proper on the rise, I can’t see it surviving into the next century.

Mahmoud Zahar, like the other Hamas grotesques, deserves no such memorial. There’s something indescribably wretched about the way he and his goons are lionised in the various Arabic language forums across the net.

Chart of the distribution of Hamas supporters online

IDF spokeperson.com

Good post - I know I have never read her diary because it would upset me too much, for the same reason I don’t think I could watch the programme.

Are there a lot of Hamas apologists on here?

It’s just a tragedy that the leadership of Hamas are bigoted lunatics as thick as two short planks. If no rockets had been fired in the last few years, this wouldn’t be happening, end of the story.

That’s a repulsive thing for the Hamas leader to say. Unfortunately the lie that all Jews around the world are somehow connected to, or represented by, the state of Israel is one most enthusiastically propagated by the Israeli state. As a Jewish Londoner, I bear no ill will to the people of Israel, but the quickest way they can make themselves - and myself - safer in the face of such bigotry is for Israel a) to stop calling itself a “Jewish” state b) and throw its weight into diplomatic negotiations with Palestine rather than wasting time, money and lives on counterproductive and barbaric military operations.

Tony S
Don’t worry - the “sinister” types on the Media Lens message board are already suggesting that the timing of this excellent dramatisation is suspect. Brilliant.

http://www.medialens.org/board/

Its a bit hard to enter dimplomatic negotiations when the bastards keep firing rockets at you.

Aaronovitch on similar.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article5454670.ece

Rethinking the 2-state solution

“As a Jewish Londoner, I bear no ill will to the people of Israel, but the quickest way they can make themselves - and myself - safer in the face of such bigotry is for Israel a) to stop calling itself a “Jewish” state b) and throw its weight into diplomatic negotiations with Palestine rather than wasting time, money and lives on counterproductive and barbaric military operations.”

This argument is false and perhaps a little dangerous.

Israel has the right to call itself whatever it wants, it should not have to reinvent it’s identity to satisfy the desires of the bigots you mention. The onus is on the bigots to distinguish between the State and world Jewry, and for the government in this country and others around the world, to protect their Jewish communities.

Israel can not cease from undertaking necessary military operations, because fanatical haters will use it as an excuse to harm Jews in foreign lands. Each government must defend it’s own citizens.

I say this as a non-Zionist British Jew, who like all Jews faces potential danger at the hands of wicked people who feel that all Jews are responsible for anything that goes on in Israel.

Also whatever Israel does will be viewed negatively by some, and will serve as a “cause” for harming innocent Jews. It is wrong and to my mind immoral, to blame Israel for the abuse of Jews at the hands of anti-Semites, who let us not forget, have free will, and the ability to use their minds and morals to choose to act in a decent way.

Your point that Israel does sometimes seek to speak of behalf of all Jews, is true it does. Only recently they draped an Israeli flag over the coffin of the American anti-Zionist Rabbi Leibish Teitelbaum Hy”d who was murdered in Mumbai, despite the wishes of the family, and despite the values by which the deceased had lived.

“As a Jewish Londoner, I bear no ill will to the people of Israel, but the quickest way they can make themselves - and myself - safer in the face of such bigotry is for Israel a) to stop calling itself a “Jewish” state b) and throw its weight into diplomatic negotiations with Palestine rather than wasting time, money and lives on counterproductive and barbaric military operations.”

As regards a) you presumably mean it should stop being a Jewish state rather than stop calling itself one - a change of name is not going to have any effect? Quite apart from the moral and philosophical objections to this, from a standard Zionist perspective, this is simply not a practical option - it is like asking the Palestians to realise that they are actually Egyptian /Jordanian and for them to settle in those countries.

As regards b) there are sometimes opponents with whom there is no prospect of a negotiated solution (barring a negotiated abject surrender and defeat). Think Hitler. Think Hammas - islamist anti-semitic rejectionists - at least until their capability to terrorise Israeli civillians is substantially neutralised.

A reminder of what lies in the wake of the destruction of Hamas.

Surely time to stop Muslim immigration into the West. The first bomb will be the last visa. As murder is their business and their calling card (they love death as they never cease reminding us) then we should have no business with them. The West is sliding into civil war. Where’s the voice of Trevor Phillips now?

I understand that you focus mainly on the left in here, but the world would be a much better place than it is if anti-semitism were restricted to the anti-imperialist left.

Actions speak louder than words, Marcus. And though, it is not and should not be a numbers game, comparing and contrasting the numbers of children [deliberately] killed by the two parties is rather telling!

Scotty said:”Are there a lot of Hamas apologists on here? ”

No you have to go to Urban75.com for that. There are fucking loads of them on there.

Last night British viewers had the chance to watch the first part of novelist Deborah Moggach’s television drama about a Dutch teenager who was killed in 1945 because of her race.

FFS, would a ’spoiler alert’ have been too much to ask?

Its nice to see here that nobody as seen fit to mention the numbers of Palestinian children killed by the recent IDF action. Nobody will be building museums for them or writing TV dramas about them. They are innocent victims pure and simple of Hamas’ rockets and Israel’s obscene over reaction.

Its nice to see here that nobody as seen fit to mention the numbers of Palestinian children killed by the recent IDF action.

You guys just decide what you’re going to write before you get here and then write it anyway, even if it’s contradicted by the words already on the page, don’t you?

I ithnk Israel’s initial response was justified, in the same way that its initital response to Hezbollah’s abduction of Israeli soldiers was justified. The subsequent escalation in both cases was both misguided (strategically) and indefensible (morally), in my view. At least, some of the acts were. For example, I don’t think you can justify wiping out an entire family, including half a dozen children, just to take out the head of the household who is also a member of Hamas.

Serge, are these children being deliberately singled out for murder, and furthermore targeted because of their race?

If not, I fail to see how your point is relevant.

Other horribly sad stories from the Holocaust.

Did anyone else catch last night’s Nightwaves on the Daniel Craig flick, Defiance? I don’t know its merits or lack thereof, but was struck by Anne Karpf calling it “deeply disturbing” in view of current events in Gaza. Sorry, Anne, I suspect it was a coincidence.

I don’t think Israel’s invasion was in any way justified. Let’s face they’ve had years to try to reach some kind of accord with the Palestinians and each time blind nationalism has sought security, and the interests of the Isreali state over any other consideration.

But the idea that the Left could indulge this kind of racist Hamas comments is wildly off the mark.

I have my own Blog War about Hamas, from a standpoint of the hard left who oppose the Islamists. We take it through our leftist opposition to all abuses of Human Rights. No Exceptions! None None None!

Please you chaps on Harry’s Place don’t try to manipulate our feelings as well: Anne Frank’s Diary is very dear to my heart.

Brownie,

I agree with most of your point but think that Israel needs to try something other than bombing kids as in the example you offer. Difficult decisions need to be made. Politicians need to lead and not just follow the animus of the crowd baying for vengeance, otherwise they will hasten Israels demise rather than safeguard its future.

Whilst I agree with the facts of Mark’s post, I ultimately agree with Brownie. Ghayyan was a disgusting, revolting man whose individual death I don’t only not grieve over but am also satisfied with. We could have an argument over the fundamental immorality of all war, but its occasional necessity, and of the basic ethical approach of the Israeli forces, but at the end of it x named children were knowingly killed.

Serge, are these children being deliberately singled out for murder, and furthermore targeted because of their race? If not, I fail to see how your point is relevant.

Kids being murdered because of the apparent sins of their father is reprehensible. If you cannot see that then I fear for your humanity.

Kids being murdered because of the apparent sins of their father is reprehensible. If you cannot see that then I fear for your humanity.

Your turn.

And try not to use Biblical imagery.

Does that mean if Bin Laden puts some kids in his cave he’s safe?

Alec,

I do not understand your point? Are you making a joke about the death of Palestinian children?

“Let’s face they’ve had years to try to reach some kind of accord with the Palestinians and each time blind nationalism has sought security, and the interests of the Isreali state over any other consideration.”

Mr. Coates who are you to say that Israelis don’t have a right to demand security? They’re not to protect their homes and their children? How dare you say Anne Frank is close to your heart after uttering such a disgusting sentiment!

And everyone who cares about the lives of Israelis knows that the fact is that the Arabs have never stopped threatening the lives of Jews in Israel, that security (ie peace) is the one deal breaker for the Israelis and the one thing never offered.

We could have an argument over the fundamental immorality of all war, but its occasional necessity, and of the basic ethical approach of the Israeli forces, but at the end of it x named children were knowingly killed.

Well quite Alec.

But I suppose the fundamental difference is that they were killed presumably after a calculation about how much future potential suffering could be averted by their killing.

In the other instance, the purpose is to kill as many children as possible.

Tim,

I am sorry but I disagree with killing children. If that makes me strange for you then so be it. There are many ways to skin a cat. Surely Mossad could take these people out without bombing their families from the air? The options for Israel are not binary.

You guys just decide what you’re going to write before you get here and then write it anyway, even if it’s contradicted by the words already on the page, don’t you?

Who might these ‘you guys’ be then, Mr Brownie?

For clarity, I most certainly do make a moral distinction between the deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians and the death of innocents as a bi-product of a pursuit of just military aim - the latter is a consequence of all war that has ever been fought and ever will be; to object to this renders one a pacifist whether you recognise the description of yourself as one or not. But as the Geneva Conventions make clear, civilian casualties have to balanced against the military objective. If the assasination of Hitler had meant 30 children were killed as collateral damage, a moral defence would have been possible. Wiping out entire families to take down Hamas member Joe Schmo is not, imho.

I do not understand your point? Are you making a joke about the death of Palestinian children?

Try harder.

If we’re talking about rayyan here, he’d already sent one of his children to blow themselves up in Israel.

So that makes the rest of his family fair game, Tim?

To tell the truth, I am perturbed by the killing of Ghayyan’s family, and would prefer it not to have happened, but the pre-occupation with it is supreme affectation. Serge is attempting to take a high moral position in which he floats above all us lesser mortals, yet I simply do not believe he dedicates similar typing-time to protesting the greater number children who will have died in the Great Lakes region or Sri Lanka over the past week.

Only when it’s by Israelis.

Does that mean if Bin Laden puts some kids in his cave he’s safe?

TIM

What would Guevara have done?

Surely Mossad could take these people out without bombing their families from the air?

Please send me some of that stuff you’re smoking.

Alec,

I truly do not understand what point you are making. English is not my first language so I apologise if your point is obvious to everyone else. But, to me, you seem a little drunk.

Please try and make yourself clearer if you want a response.

So, Serge, why do you hate Ugandan and Congolese and Sri Lankan children so much?

Alec,

Thanks for clarifying your point. This thread is about Israel so references about Sri Lanka and Congo are probably off topic.

Why not deal with the point rather than indulging in whataboutery?

“English is not my first language so I apologise if your point is obvious to everyone else. But, to me, you seem a little drunk.”

Ah, the Scottish stereotype that transcends nations.

This thread is about Israel

Err… no it isn’t.

Or at least, it wasn’t until you hijacked it.

Alan,

Why do you see the only options for Israel as: do nothing or bomb the entire fanmily from the air? Do you not know of Mossad’s history of executions?

I am no expert on the IDf but I am sure their options were not purely binary.

Demonstrations around Europe involve Muslims and fellow travellers.

Notably absent from these appalling outbursts are representatives of the “right-wing extremist” parties. Communists, Anarchists, Socialists, and various and sundry other parties of the Left are well-represented among the supporters of Hamas, and occasionally join in with the “back to the ovens” Jew-hating chants.

And you especially won’t find Vlaams Belang.

Curious definition of “extreme-right”, n’est ce pas? Tell me again, who are the fascists?

I went to the local demo at the Weekend. 99% in the (peaceful) march (I guess about 2000) were brown Muslims. White faces were very few, notably the rabble rousing SWP man at the front with the megaphone. These people are believing the most massive lies, and nothing good can come out of such, particularly the airbrushing of history by BBC hagiographies.

I truly do not understand what point you are making. English is not my first language so I apologise if your point is obvious to everyone else.

“Your turn” was in response to a accusation you made of Mark, to whit he was a moral freak who’d visit the sins of the father on children. Sorry, Serge, your English is perfectly understandable and competent. If you were unclear of my point, you should have only *asked* and not threw further cheap accusations in.

But, to me, you seem a little drunk.

You haven’t met John P.

Serge, are you being serious?

This thread is about Israel so references about Sri Lanka and Congo are probably off topic.

Haha, hilarious. Well, yes, the killing of Ghayyan’s family is the worst single such moral outrage imaginable, as you’re pushing, if we restrict discussion to Israel.

This thread is about Anne Frank and a vow of unleashing murderous anti-Jewish violence the world over. It’s only “about Israel” if you consider Jews worldwide to be indistinguishable from Israeli interests, which I doubt is your intention.

P.S. Why do you hate Ugandan and Congolese and Sri Lankan children so much that you can’t even discuss them?

I guess I must have missed all the threads on HP about Congo and Sri Lanka. I must concentrate harder.

Alternatively, I go to other sites for discussions about other countries. It would be a strange person who came to HP to discuss events outside the IP conflict.

Alan you keep asking the same question. Are you in the same bar as Alec?

Do you not know of Mossad’s history of executions?

Do you not know of the difference between covert operations outwith conflict zones and heavy urban fighting?

The death of innocent civillians, including children, is an inevitable consequence of any war, or at least any war which is not fought wholly on a battle field. Unless you are coming at it from a pacifist perspective this, alone, is not enough to show that Israel is committing moral or legal crimes.

If we assume that Israel’s war is just, in the sense of responding to immoral and illegal attacks on it, then the question is whether they are conducting war in a moral/ lawful manner. That is by not deliberately targetting civillians and/or by taking reasonable steps to minimise civillian casualties. Also by acting proportionately - ie only maximising damage to the extent neccessary to acheive the legitimate military objective (ie to disable or substantially disable Hammas ability to fire more rockets).

No one is seriously suggesting that they are targetting civillians, ie with the deliberate aim of murdering non-combatants (a course which is the norm for certain ‘resistance movements’). Whether they are taking reasonable /proportionate steps is a question which doesnt have any clear answer because the legal and moral obligations are unclear and hazy. There have been thousands of warning calls, there has been a ground invasion, rather than just shelling them into surrender (a la Grozny) but it if very difficult to fight war justly in heavily populated areas against a semi guerilla army which deliberates hides amongst a civillian population attempting to use them as willing or unwilling / knowing or unwitting human sheilds. This use of human shields, which Hezbollah also, practised, is a war crime and one which increases the civillian death toll.

I simply dont have enough information to conclude definitively on whether Israel and the IDF have taken sufficient steps to wage this war lawfully - and even if they had it is always possible for indiviudals officers and soldiers to breach orders. There is nothing which obviously proves they have waged war unlawfully.

Serge, when all you can provide to the discussion is accusations of drunkenness, the conversation should end. I suggest others cease to indulge you until you develop some maturity.

Do you not know of the difference between covert operations outwith conflict zones and heavy urban fighting?

Obviously he does not.

I already told you Serge - If you’re looking for attention, stuff a broomstick up your bum and post on youtube. You’ll get lots of laughs.

(Before Serge claims lack of fluency in English, I should point out that - as it has caused confusion before - outwith is not synonymous with without, and simply means outside.)

“No one is seriously suggesting that they are targetting civillians”

Do you believe that the IDF had no idea Rayyan’s family lived with him?

“I suggest others cease to indulge you until you develop some maturity.”

Is this directed at “broomstick” Mark or me?

“Do you not know of the difference between covert operations outwith conflict zones and heavy urban fighting?”

This is the point. Israel decided that heavy urban fighting was the best way to combat Hamas rather than an approach with fewer civilian casualties. This was the immoral decision.

“Do you believe that the IDF had no idea Rayyan’s family lived with him?”

I’m sure they did.
However.They may have been surprised that he chose to keep them in his house as he knew it was targeted.One of his sons had already been “martyred” as a suicide bomber and the house war reportedly used as an explosives store.

I simply dont have enough information to conclude definitively on whether Israel and the IDF have taken sufficient steps to wage this war lawfully - and even if they had it is always possible for indiviudals officers and soldiers to breach orders. There is nothing which obviously proves they have waged war unlawfully.

In terms of the prosecution of the war in general terms, I’d probably agree. But there are individual acts which I think are both morally and legally indefensible. That hardly makes this war unique, but that doesn’t mean these acts shouldn’t be recognised.

This is the point. Israel decided that heavy urban fighting was the best way to combat Hamas rather than an approach with fewer civilian casualties.

Just as I don’t believe you are devoting similar time to those other children, I just don’t believe you’d be mollified if she’d kept Gaza in a state of lock-down while sending in the occasional hit-squad. Add to that both the current situation in intertwined within both Hamas and Israeli policy, yet you attempt the intellectual cheat by restricting discussion only to the latter. Then expect to be seen as operating on a higher moral plane, unencumbered by our prejudices, and not as an intellectual cheat.

And, once again, are you savvy with the difference between non-hostile urban environments, in which the aforementioned Mossad operations took place, and highly hostile conflict zones? Add to *that* your praise for the type of operation which led to the death of Ahmed Bouchiki.

Why do you hate blameless Moroccan waiters so much?

“your praise for the type of operation ”

Where did I praise it? Please don’t lie as it makes your arguments seem even weaker than they evidently are.

What, you are recommending that Israel pursue policies which you think are morally indefensible? Sod Moroccan waiters and those children, why do you hate humans so much?

“And, once again, are you savvy with the difference between non-hostile urban environments, in which the aforementioned Mossad operations took place, and highly hostile conflict zones?”

As I did nine years in a part of the French military I would say I am knowledgeable about military conflict. Additionally I have spent quite a bit of time boots on ground in central Africa. What is your experience Alec that gives you the ability to comment knowledgeably?

Alec you are sounding a little histrionic now. Try and stay calm.

Once again, Serge, your English is perfectly acceptable. Stop playing dumb and concede that your argument and word-choice - which is all we have to go on - is like a piece of Gouda cheese.

What is your experience Alec that gives you the ability to comment knowledgeably?

What is your understanding of the word sardonic? Following your reasoning, as you have not operated in a similar situation as between Israel and Gaza, you should take a vow of silence and defer to people who have. But you don’t. We are all permitted to discuss issues with which we don’t have direct experience. What we are not permitted to do - without accusations of bias and dishonesty - is to place inconvenient truths behind a firewall, whilst subjecting our interlocutor to endless verification.

Alec you are sounding a little histrionic now. Try and stay calm.

Get back on the naughty-stool until you stop inferring irrational emotion or drunkenness in others.

Just as I don’t believe you are devoting similar time to those other children, I just don’t believe you’d be mollified if she’d kept Gaza in a state of lock-down while sending in the occasional hit-squad.

Can you imagine what Serge would be saying is Israel had sent in the Mossad to assasinate the elected political leaders of a foreign entity? And isn’t this the point? The only response from Israel that is aceptable to the likes of Serge is to try things that have already failed or to take all the shit Hamas can throw at them on the chin.

As I did nine years in a part of the French military I would say I am knowledgeable about military conflict. Additionally I have spent quite a bit of time boots on ground in central Africa.

You were a French soldier in central Africa?

He’s right, Alec. If anyone is knowledgable about war crimes, it ought to be Serge.

““No one is seriously suggesting that they are targetting civillians”

Do you believe that the IDF had no idea Rayyan’s family lived with him?”

there is a difference between intending to kill civillians as your primary objective and intending to kill combatants/or acheive some other legitimate military objective in the knowledge that civillians will, or will amost certainly die, as a result. There are numerous cases of the latter including the sinking of the Norweigan ferry which held heavy water in 1944, which killed 19 innocent civillians.

“As I did nine years in a part of the French military I would say I am knowledgeable about military conflict. Additionally I have spent quite a bit of time boots on ground in central Africa.”

Boots on the table, surely.

His disingenuousness is shocking, Brownie. He calls for Mossad to have been sent in for targeted-assassination, then pursues a non-point of whether or not he was ‘praising’ it. Maybe he’s been watching Nikita.

I expect he will now insist that Israel should have followed X grand policy which would have avoided the state of affairs in Gaza in which she decided to invade. Quite why this would have *still* resulted in a situation where it was necessary to send in Mossad after Ghayyam, I don’t know, but I’m sure we’re about to find out.

I didn’t want to mention it, Brownie and Tim, but now you do… did you know that if you’re going to dump a body in a river (a political opponent in Rwanda, say) it’s best to slit the abdomen so gases don’t build-up and cause it to float to the surface?

There is a pro-Israel rally tomorrow night in London.

http://blog.newkey-burden.com/2009/01/solidarity-with-israel-rally.html

My view on targetted assassination is that it is less bad than indiscriminate bombing. Surely that is inarguable in the Gaza situation. Israel keeps stressing that this operation is purely against Hamas, so why not use a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer?

“Boots on the table, surely.”

You know not of what you speak, Tim.

Hamas fuckwits.

There, it had to be said.

“ “No one is seriously suggesting that they are targetting civillians”

Do you believe that the IDF had no idea Rayyan’s family lived with him?”

–

Of course they knew - the IDF even warned Rayyan’s family: leaflets, sms & god knows what info-war means.

Can you image that situation:
a husband ordering his four wives not to leave his side, so as to be collectively martyrized… Kids crying…

Hamas denied them their existential rights.

You are a useful idiot - no discussion on that.

“Sadly so long as such repulsive tactics have a sufficient ‘anti-imperialist’ gloss applied to them I fear there will always be British leftists who will seek to ‘understand’ and ‘explain’ such barbarism. Prove me wrong in the comments box.”

There’s nothing wrong with understanding and explaining barbarism. The problem is that these leftists, don’t understand, cannot explain, and merely apologise and condone.

Call this a Godwin, but I think it’s on point: if during WWII your only chance to take out Hitler, Himmler, Goering or Goebbels was with a bomb while they were near children, knowing that some of the children would certainly be killed or injured, wouldn’t you do it? Wouldn’t you have to do it?

Surely Mossad could take these people out without bombing their families from the air?

Here’s what you do. You send in 100’s of buses with dummy women and children in them and drive them through Gaza, and park them. The Hamas suicide bombers will all jump onto the buses, you shut the door electronically and then blow up the buses with Hamas inside.

You take dummies of orthodox Jews and leave them in a Gaza city square. When the angry mob jumps on the dummy then you explode it when it has received five stab wounds.

You create a mobile exhibition called “Jews dying painfully”. When all the seats are full you explode the exhibition.

You put up a sign in a bookshop “Free copies of The Protocols of The Elders of Zion & Mein Kampf for the first 50 customers. Then you blow the book shop up.

In the Gaza equivalent of B & Q you advertise “Free Katusha with every tin of paint” You prime them to go off on the ground when fired”

Or do these things only work in cartoon-land? (silly)

if during WWII your only chance to take out Hitler, Himmler, Goering or Goebbels was with a bomb while they were near children, knowing that some of the children would certainly be killed or injured, wouldn’t you do it? Wouldn’t you have to do it?

Clinton tried this with Gaddaffi but ended up killing family I believe.

The ‘coalition’; tried this pre-emptively against Saddam & Sons before the 2nd Gulf War but took out a restaurant and diners.

Israel did it badly a few years ago when they bombed a block of flats with a terrorist leader inside and have done this a few times recently by targetting terrorist houses along with the family.

This has to be one of the toughest moral calls where the casualties & deaths of innocents have to be weighed with saving lives. Kids can’t choose what their father does but then the father doesn’t have to take terrorism home with him either. A terrorists leader condemns his family to the fate he wishes on others. Its not fair but we can’t do much better.

The vital air attacks on the French transport system before D-Day took the lives of 10000 French civilians - figures from Hastings ‘Overlord’

So, does Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar being wrong make the State of Israel right? He would surely be an isolated and largely ignored figure if moderate elements in Gaza had not been undermined so very thoroughly. If the people weren’t starving, imprisoned, greeted and treated as animals. If they were not now into three and four and more generations of serial refugee-ship.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is old school of course. Pretty naff and regressive, even taken at face value. But since when did it say the exchange rate for the other’s eyes and teeth should run at 50, 60, even 100 to one?

And what is sophisticated Israel (and USA and UK and etc by turns) example teaching people? Might Makes Right is the meme. That is what you are teaching the watching world. You can get your way by maiming and killing big style is the message. Fuck the weak!

PS Comparisons with Warsaw don’t work, or Dresden, or French transport bombing (10,000 civilians?), or anything else that’s been tried by either side. This is Gaza 2009. It is not the same. But it is not good. It is deeply shameful.

Call this a Godwin, but I think it’s on point: if during WWII your only chance to take out Hitler, Himmler, Goering or Goebbels was with a bomb while they were near children, knowing that some of the children would certainly be killed or injured, wouldn’t you do it? Wouldn’t you have to do it?

It sounds like a fudge, but it depends on the number of kids, doesn’t it? Certainly, you can get away with more collateral damage if your target is a general than if he is just one of the poor bloody infantry. I’m not going to pretend I have enough of the detail to come to a definitive view, but on the face of it I think some of the Israeli actions - taking out entire families to get one Hamas operative - is ott.

But since when did it say the exchange rate for the other’s eyes and teeth should run at 50, 60, even 100 to one?

Are we still talking about casualties in this particular conflict, or prisoner exchanges? How does a few hundred of their living and breathing terrorists for the remains of two torutured and murdered Israeli servicemen balance on your scales?

BTW, and ironically enough, the eye for an eye code was nothing at all to do with vengance, but rather proportionality. If you take my eye, I can’t justify blinding you completely.

Nizar Rayyan was not a minor Hamas operative. He was one of the two or three most significant figures in the organization in Gaza.

Speaking from a secret location he warned…

What a worthless piece of shit.

He obviously has no faith in Allah. In fact, I think that is the case with most radicals; why else would they stay in hiding?

What would Moe say about such cowardice?

Zahar’s words, while certainly horrible, are words, and there is no indication of a Hamas plan to systematically kill Jews. Bringing up Anne Frank in this context is a most unfortunate exercise in cheap-point making.

Everyone thinks killing children is reprehensible. The question is, does that mean vile murderers, including those who send out their own children to be killed just to kill the enemy, get a pass the moment they use children as human shields or keep their kids with them at all times. That is what your argument implies. Therefore, I think tim’s point about osama bin laden is totally valid. By your standards, Bin Laden, Omar and the others are perfectly safe in the company of children.
A little twist on Blanche Dubois then: “I have always relied on the company of children.”

“Zahar’s words, while certainly horrible, are words, and there is no indication of a Hamas plan to systematically kill Jews.”

So apart from the actual threat itself, you expected detailed plans to be unveiled at a gala event at the O2 Arena?

Yeah, good point. We’ve all learnt the lessons of the Holocaust. That’s why we murder schoolchildren while they’re at school now, and don’t force them into hiding.

Creeps.

By your standards, Bin Laden, Omar and the others are perfectly safe in the company of children.

Not just by my standards. By the standards of interntionally recognised humanitarian agreements. A bloody good thing, too.

So apart from the actual threat itself, you expected detailed plans to be unveiled at a gala event at the O2 Arena?

No; I expect intelligence from some Israeli or American agency suggesting there’s a plan to murder all Jews for the sole reason of being Jewish. That’s what’s needed to make a comparison between Hamas and the Nazis.

It looks as if Hamas fellow-travellers in Europe are acting upon Mahmoud Zahar’s threats: “Arson attack on French synagogue”.

A huge number of Jews fled France for Israel after a wave of anti-Semitic incidents in 2002. At this rate, Europe will be “judenfrei” in a few years. Meanwhile, the likes of Callum ignore what is happening under their noses with smug claims that “we’ve all learnt the lessons of the Holocaust.”

I expect intelligence from some Israeli or American agency suggesting there’s a plan to murder all Jews for the sole reason of being Jewish. That’s what’s needed to make a comparison between Hamas and the Nazis.

Have you read the Hamas Charter? If anything Hamas are more upfront than the Nazis were, with what they have in store for Jews.

Have you read the Hamas Charter? If anything Hamas are more upfront than the Nazis were, with what they have in store for Jews.

Sabre rattling. There’s a difference between promising to do something and actually making a plan for it.

I once caught a drunk teenager with a spray-paint can scribbling graffiti on the hood of my car. I shouted at him “I’ll kill you!” I was lucky the boy was too young and too intoxicated; otherwise he could have sued me.

Frustration sometimes leads us to say horrible things.

Yeah, good point. We’ve all learnt the lessons of the Holocaust. That’s why we murder schoolchildren while they’re at school now, and don’t force them into hiding.

Callum, why do you insist on making yourself look like a berk?

So we have a very real charter which calls for the extermination of Jews, supported by the advocates of suicde bombing and other war crimes.

And then we have the Hasbara Buster running into a yob outside his house.

Yes, I for one can see how its exactly the same situation. An apt comparison indeed. One should not take these threats too seriously.

‘Sadly so long as such repulsive tactics have a sufficient ‘anti-imperialist’ gloss applied to them I fear there will always be British leftists who will seek to ‘understand’ and ‘explain’ such barbarism. Prove me wrong in the comments box.’

And Hasbara Buster failed.

Therefore, one must conclude there is no threat against Jews which Hasbara Buster will not rationalise.

To rationalise such threats of terror with pointes annacdotes from his own pointless life is a new low. Its almost as though the idiot wants us to believe we caught the terrorist on an off day.

Therefore, one must conclude there is no threat against Jews which Hasbara Buster will not rationalise.

I said there’s no indication of a Hamas PLAN (not words) to kill the Jews. Just like there are people who intend to commit genocide but don’t say so, like the Turks or the Nazis, there are also people who say they will commit genocide but don’t intend to.

An example is Azzam Pasha, Iraq’s foreign minister in 1948. He promised there would be a massacre of Jews comparable to the Mongols’ massacres. But did not go on to mass-murder even the Jews in his own country.

So we have a very real charter which calls for the extermination of Jews, supported by the advocates of suicde bombing and other war crimes.

From the Likud party’s charter:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.

Yet I haven’t seen anyone at HP calling for the immediate expulsion of the Likud from the Knesset unless it ammends its undemocratic endorsement of the illegal settlements in the West Bank.

HB:

“Sabre rattling.”

It would be sabre rattling if they didn’t have a track record of targetting, injuring and killing Israeli civillians. Inconveniently for you, they do have that track record. And it is part of their doctrine to continue to do so.

To sum up:

1. Their charter dedicates them to the annihilation of Israel.

2. Their activities are, and have been, consistent with their charter.

So no surprises there then.

As for the killing of children. All over the world, children are being killed. And in many places, it is much more cold-blooded than this, and the children are the target, not the collateral damage. They are killed in North Korea in the prison camps, because their parents fell foul of the regime. They are rounded up at night from the streets of Sao Paolo and taken away to be shot and dumped. They were targetted in Beslan. Catholic schoolgirls in Indonesia have been captured and beheaded by jihadists.

But that seems to be OK, because the truth is, the outcry is not about who is doing the dying. It is about who is doing the killing. How dare the Jews kill to defend their children.

I am sure this little bitch would have gotten on my nerves within minutes but her writing is a timeless beacon for humanity!