Harry’s Place

I’ve got a horrible feeling someone is going to try and justify the comparison on this thread.

The comparisons with the Holocaust are ludicrous. Why the Holocaust? The only reason for that makes any sense to me for this comparison being invariably invoked is that those doing so enjoy using the greatest tragedy in Jewish history as a stick with which to beat Jews. Antisemites? You decide. Cunts? Certainly!

Anyone who justifies the twinning is a self-declared anti-Semite. The hamas war is supposedly against Israel. It has nothing to do with Jews who are citizens of Britain or France or anywhere else. By attacking Jews who live elsewhere, who are citizens of the countries in which they reside and who have on influence on Israeli policy, the hamas agenda is clear. It is hell-bent on a war against all Jews. alexei sayle, and annie lennox, that includes you.

What Tim said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1105103/George-Galloway-axed-TalkSPORT-scuffle-police-pro-Palestinian-rally.html

It would seem a jittery Talksport, Galloways primary employer, are getting a little OFCOM jumpy about this stuff.

In what way is Gaza not a ghetto? Are the Palestinians there free to leave Gaza to escape the Israeli bombinmg and shelling? Why are the Israeli authorities permitting Israeli journalists to enter Gaza but not the international media? When Israeli radicals such as Hagada refer to the Gazo ghetto are they “anti-semitic.” When “Jews for Justice for Palestinians” denounce the crimes committed against innocent civilians - including a sickening number of children - are they “anti-semitic.” Is the alleged Nazi sympathiser standing as part of the Likud list in the forthcoming election an “anti-semite”?

I’ve got a horrible feeling someone is going to try and justify the comparison on this thread.

And lo and behold…

John Palmer.
The people in the Warsaw Ghetto were all to be killed by the Nazis one way or another within a year.

I don’t think you’re really drawing a parallel are you?

Tim said:”http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1105103/George-Galloway-axed-TalkSPORT-scuffle-police-pro-Palestinian-rally.html

It would seem a jittery Talksport, Galloways primary employer, are getting a little OFCOM jumpy about this stuff.”

Now THERE’S a redundancy we can all celebrate. Tehran George can spend some more time with his dictators (whoops family)

MarkT - Tim - Any interest in responding to the questions I asked?

That’s right Mark T, let’s ignore John Palmer’s substantive points entirely. Let’s denounce the protestors while giving the child-killers in the Israeli military our tacit approval.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/at-what-point-does-it-become-genocide.html

[…]
I am not as inclined to use ‘holocaust’ metaphors as Israeli spokespersons, and there is a very sensible desire to avoid emotionally-laden words like ‘genocide’, particularly given that the justification for atrocity is often based on the invocation of such terms. Nonetheless, when the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe describes a process of genocide in Gaza, as he did last year, it is clear that there is something more to it than an emotional reaction to oppression. True, ‘only’ 550 have been directly killed in Gaza in this particular 11 day old operation, but that in itself wouldn’t be the basis for denying that a genocidal process is under way. The number is proportionally equivalent to killing 22,000 in the UK - or, if you prefer, about 3,000 in Darfur. In Darfur, the total number killed over the worst ten months of violence when it really was a ‘killing fields’ situation was 30,000. If the argument was really just about the numbers of people directly slain, the fate of Gaza is now proportionally worse than it was in Darfur during its worst period. I doubt many people will assent to that judgment.

[….]
Although the public justification for such violence involves an obnoxiously self-righteous language about resisting ‘terrorism’, the ongoing concern with the ‘demographic timebomb’ and the repeated proposals for ‘transfer’ (always peaceful, always benevolent, as it was in early Zionist ideology) somewhat give the game away. The very existence of the Palestinians as a people is being treated as an existential threat to Israel. Since Israel has never shown any sign of being willing to accept a Palestinian state and live within even the 1967 boundaries, the logic of such a position is to find a way to dispose of the Palestinian residents of the occupied territories. This is not new, nor is it an artefact of the rise of Israel’s far right. Israeli leaders, both Labour and Likud, have tried to find ways to drive hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of the occupied territories. Meir Cohen once regretted Israel’s “grave mistake” in not expelling between two and three hundred thousand Palestinians from the West Bank in 1967. Yitzhak Rabin thought that the demographic problem was best solved by creating conditions that would produce “natural and voluntary” migration from the territories to Jordan, and believed that King Hussein and Arafat had to be engaged to this purpose. Obviously, the creation of terror, immiseration, starvation and increasing confinement is one way to help bring this about. Additionally, Avigdor Lieberman’s proposals for the ‘transfer’ of Israeli Arabs is but one aspect of a generally perceived need to manage down the Arab population of Israel, including efforts to settle territories in Israel with high Arab populations such as the Negev and Galilee (there has been, since 2005, a minister charged solely with the development of these territories). As Shaw has written elsewhere, Israel is of necessity a society based on genocide, as the destruction of the Arab communities that made Israel possible “clearly fits the definition of genocide enshrined in the Genocide Convention of the same year”. Much “of its history to the present day represents the slow-motion extension and consolidation of that violent beginning.”

[…..]
It isn’t that any single attack or massacre by Israel constitutes genocide. It is that the ongoing war against the entire Palestinian population, its infrastructure, its political expressions, its culture, and its life-support, contains a genocidal dynamic. The fact that this is reflected in current Israeli tactics is the reason why many are ready to take the Israeli minister fully at his word.

John Palmer,
did the Jews in Warsaw send rockets on German civilians, did they send suicidebombers so that German civilians die?
Did the Nazis let in a lot of trucks to Ghetto Warsaw?

read what Haaretz has written about subject matter:
“And finally a word about…

Analogy Three: Gaza as the Warsaw Ghetto

Jew-haters the world over adore this one. It solves a number of problems at once:

It denies and diminishes and exploits the Holocaust, does disrespect to Holocaust victims and survivors alike, alleviates European guilt over complicity with the Nazis, alleviates American guilt over inaction in the face of the annihilation machine, misrepresents both the cruel reality of the Gaza Strip and the cruel reality of the ghetto, dismisses the humanity and the vulnerability of the million Israeli Jews and Arabs within rocket range, and ignores completely the role of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees, and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in having sent thousands and thousands and thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel.

As a bonus, pro-Palestinian demonstrators in San Francisco [where else?], referencing the the Warsaw Ghetto analogy, recently beat up a small number of pro-Israel demonstrators, reportedly shouting “Slaughter the Jew” at them in Arabic.

Way to bring peace.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052866.html

The phrase ‘useful idiot’ never seemed more apt, six comments in and one steps forward. Read the post again and try and understand why the comparison is nausating frankly.

“They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,” Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location. “They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.”

For some reason, Hamas hasn’t heard that two wrongs don’t make a right.

I wonder how well such a “justification” for murder is playing in the propaganda war.

John Palmer - Did you make any substantive points comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto?
You seemed to me to make general points about Gaza being a ghetto.

KarlPfeiffer - Do I take it from what you say that Gaza is not a ghetto and, consequently, that its people are free to flee the shelling and bombing? If true this is veryimportant. Perhaps you would therefore support an end to the Israeli ban on the international media getting access to Gaza. We could then have verification of what you seem to be claining. I note that no one has responded to my other questions.

““They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,” Mahmoud Zahar said ”

Does this mean that when they were lobbing rockets towards Israeli kindergarten before the last Israeli response, they were doing something that they themselves considered ilegitimate? Food for thought.

John.
I would indeed support an end to the media ban, and indeed would describe Gaza as a ghetto.

Your misunderstanding seems to be with the nature of the use of gheottos during the holocaust as holding centres on the road to an extermination camp.
I notice that you aren’t making that parallel anyway.

Does this mean that when they were lobbing rockets towards Israeli kindergarten before the last Israeli response, they were doing something that they themselves considered ilegitimate?

Oh, the moral knots that the Hamas leadership must tie themselves in!

Not.

John Palmer: under your definition, any confined area within a war zone is a ‘ghetto’. That definition is insufficient to define a ‘ghetto’, let alone the Warsaw Ghetto. But I shall not go further, as you would be utterly mendacious or too historically illiterate if I you actually required me to explain why.

Gaza is like the Harlem guetto, but with even worse music.

Rastalion, it’s bad enough that you link to that hideous bastard Richard Seymour - did you also have to paste in, like a schoolboy, loads of his crap?

No! I take it from your words, that you think it was absolutely wrong when RAF bombed Germany, after all a lot of civilians died.
Take it from me, Gaza is a fortified Iranian basis managed by Islamist fundamentalists who shoot rockets into Israel and not a ghetto.
Now the word Ghetto has several meanings. Usually it is used for the Ghettos the Germans created for Jews before they sent them to the annihilation camps.
And I resent any comparison with that, having lost 3 dozens of my relatives in such Camps after they were put first in a Ghetto.

Rastalion, it’s bad enough that you link to that hideous bastard Richard Seymour - did you also have to paste in, like a schoolboy, loads of his crap?

Paul,
Let’s deal with the contents of his post, shall we?
You can start this by you countering his arguments with rational and sensible rebuttals rather than crude insults.

There is a pro-Israel rally tomorrow night in London.

http://blog.newkey-burden.com/2009/01/solidarity-with-israel-rally.html

Rastalion no logical argumentation is possible with people like Richard Seymour who speaks about a genocide.
And you can quote Pappe, Atzmon, Israel Shamir and other Jewish antisemites. Fact is those “good Jews” are the darlings of Neonazi.

The comparisons are inaccurate and offensive.

And unnecessary.

The crimes being carried out in this latest attack on Gaza are clearly evident without the need to make ridiculous and emotive historical comparisons.

Chas: It is unclear who is organising this rally and whether they have police permission. If this is just a bunch of well-meaning Facebook users, it could be a complete disaster.

It is disgusting and disgraceful for anyone to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. Compare it to Stalingrad under seige, or Grozny, or Sarajevo if you really think Israel is prosecuting an unjust war in an unjust way.

As for John Palmer saying that Gaza is a Ghetto, well maybe it is a ghetto in some senses of the word and maybe Harlesden is a ghetto in some senses of the word but it does not legitimise the disgusting comparision.

The following should not need explaining, but the Nazis tried to wipe out the Jews as a race and in Europe they were quite sucesful murdering 6 millions. Had they won the war the Jews would have been elimated as a race. the Israeli government has never planned or attempted to do this to the Palestinians.

Karl Pfeifer:

“…alleviates European guilt over complicity with the Nazis, alleviates American guilt over inaction in the face of the annihilation machine…

Just a quiet word in regard to this Haaretz article: when ‘people’ lump ‘Europeans’ into one basket in regard to anti-Semitism, the Holocaust and Jew hatred as that complete cockweasel Denis MacShane often does, let’s not forget that the UK, alone in Europe, fought against nazis, fascists and collaborators from Germany, Austria, France, Italy and others. There were also a number of countries who shamefully stayed ‘neutral’.

Just about every British family lost a relative or friend or a neighbour in WW2. Largely thanks to Britain and the US, the state of Israel was founded. I’m frankly sick of people bemoaning the inaction or political naivity of Chamberlain and his government as well as modern European advocates of JC Monnet who besmirch the name of the UK and its peoples with the shameless behaviour of most of Europe during the conflict.

I say bollocks to Europe and anti-Semitism. Germany, Austria, France and Italy bear responsibilty for ‘European’ crimes.

This as the paper also reported that Jewish groups said yesterday that the invasion of Gaza had provoked a surge in anti-Semitic intimidation and violence in London and Manchester. Jewish charity, the Community Security Trust said that the threat had increased after comments by Hamas leaders calling for attacks on Jewish people. On Saturday when three youths tried to set fire to Brondesbury Park Synagogue in northwest London.

I notice the paper doesn’t mention who is behind this wave of attacks.

There is only one reason why anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe: a massive influx of Muslims.

Why are so many Muslims living in European countries? Because of the machinations of ‘progressive’ leftists. Ergo, ‘progressive’ leftists and those on the ubercapitalist right who espouse open borders and low wages are the ultimate harbingers of anti-Semitism.

OK Rastalion.
Why do you think Seymour downgrades the deaths in Darfur?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict#Mortality_figures

KarlPfeiffer: As a matter of fact I do think the “obliteration” bombing of German civilians was a crime. Incidentally so did many serving RAF officers from fighter command including members of my family. The effect of the civilian bombing was to strengthen the grip of the Nazis in the closing stages of the war.
Gaza has been a de facto ghetto for a long time - certainly since all movement in and out was forbidden. The bombing/shelling of civilians in Gaza - “collatoral” damage no doubt - is a crime. By the way the points I am making have been made more forcibly by many Jews (Hagada, Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Sabby Sagall in today’s Guardian and many others) who also lost family in the Nazi holocaust. The only Jewish voice I have heard saying that Hitler may not have been all bad is a gentleman seeking election for Likud.

“Let’s deal with the contents of his post, shall we?”

I’m not interested in debating the content of anything that that cretin has to say. Especially because I chose to come here, to Harry’s Place, and not to his ridiculous blog. If I wanted to read his shit, I’d go there to read it.

And sorry, pasting his words in like that suggests to me that you’re in thrall to the creep. Which is, as I’m sure you won’t agree, very schoolboyish and a not a little pathetic. ‘Lenin’ my fucking arse.

What stringerbell said. Apart from anything else, it gives you lot the chance to change the subject from the criminal massacres that are ongoing.

I am not as inclined to use ‘holocaust’ metaphors as Israeli spokespersons

I have to say, I switched off here. Is this a reference to the “shoah” comment? Hasn’t the actual meaning of this been done to death?

Paul, fair enough.

It is worthing viewing Galloway’s speech(or at least the section of it about Warsaw/Gaza) in full. It is scurrilous, ahistorical and, in my opinion, a deliberate wind-up:

In April and May of 1943, the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto were surrounded by barbed wire fences, by the occupiers of Poland, and they faced a choice, in the words of the song of the partisans: ‘They could die on their knees or they could live forever’. And they chose to rise up against their occupier, to use their bodies as weapons, to dig tunnels, to fight, not to die in ones and twos of hunger and typhus, but to die as free men and women. Today, the Palestinian people in Gaza are the new Warsaw Ghetto, and those who are murdering them are the equivalent of those who murdered the Jews in Warsaw in 1943.

Rastalion.
You quoted Seymour.
Do you agree with his figures regarding Darfur?

Rastalion.
You quoted Seymour.
Do you agree with his figures regarding Darfur?

And your point being exactly what, Tim?

The devil is in the detail…

British police said that they were working with Muslims to reassure them that non-violent demonstrations would be facilitated. One Muslim group wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday warning that the Israeli attacks could drive young Muslims into the hands of extremists.

I bet there’s all sorts of grovelling going on to the assorted pressure groups as we speak. “Please Mr Muslim, don’t cause any trouble and we’ll let you parade through the streets in pyjamas allahu-akbaring.”

You can bet that PM and Ginge won’t be asking the ‘one Muslim group’ what they’re doing to discourage demonisation of Israelis.

My point being that Seymour is duplicitous in his use of statistics to try and prove his point.
You should always double check his logic before you quote him.

Mr. Palmer, it is nice that some of your best friends are “good Jews”. But that is not a guarantee that what they say is the truth.
You complain about Israel not letting in journalists. However there is a justification not to let journalists enter into a territory where their security can’t be granted. The USA had journalist when going into Iraq and that was criticised too.
There is also the fact, that journalists in territory in the hands of Hamas are not free to report.
I guess when the time is ripe, Israel will let in journalist.

Rastalion -

Let’s deal with the contents of his post, shall we?

I’m game.

I am not as inclined to use ‘holocaust’ metaphors as Israeli spokespersons

This has been dealt with many times over, and the fact that ‘Lenin’ is still attempting to argue that a “holocaust” was threatened in Gaza tells us only that he is deeply disingenuous, nothing more.

when the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe describes a process of genocide in Gaza, as he did last year, it is clear that there is something more to it than an emotional reaction to oppression

What? Because a historian decides to label events with a particular word, that suddenly changes reality?

Baffling.

I’d also like to see some evidence of an actual genocide, beyond Pappe using the word.

True, ‘only’ 550 have been directly killed in Gaza in this particular 11 day old operation, but that in itself wouldn’t be the basis for denying that a genocidal process is under way. The number is proportionally equivalent to killing 22,000 in the UK - or, if you prefer, about 3,000 in Darfur

Of course Seymour carefully neglects to mention that the vast majority of those 550 killed have been Hamas militants. But I doubt that would change his calculation, because I’m sure he sees Hamas members as innocent wronged parties.

Then I got bored.

Graham Steward, why don’t you post on fascist websites?

My point being that Seymour is duplicitous in his use of statistics to try and prove his point. You should always double check his logic before you quote him

Tim, please tell us you are not afflicted with thesame Basic English Language Comprehension deficiency syndrome as ravin Maven….
Let’s try it in bold, shall we?

[…]

the total number killed over the worst ten months of violence when it really was a ‘killing fields’ situation was 30,000.

KPfeiffer: But you misunderstand. Some journalists are allowed into Gaza. Some Israeli journalists. Surely their safety is also a matter of concern - if this is anything to do with safety and not with news management? Of course I can understand the desire to “manage” the news in view of the horrors now emerging in Gaza.

Israel has to take some blame for funding these crazy Jihadists back in the day, when their main enemy was the Arab nationalists.

“Of course Seymour carefully neglects to mention that the vast majority of those 550 killed have been Hamas militants.”

But on the BBC, a doctor in Gaza said that of the 2000-odd casualties he’d seen, only two were fighters!

“KPfeiffer: But you misunderstand. Some journalists are allowed into Gaza. Some Israeli journalists. ” (Palmer)

Who?

Karl - thanks for posting this from Ha’aretz:

“Analogy Three: Gaza as the Warsaw Ghetto

Jew-haters the world over adore this one. It solves a number of problems at once:

It denies and diminishes and exploits the Holocaust, does disrespect to Holocaust victims and survivors alike, alleviates European guilt over complicity with the Nazis, alleviates American guilt over inaction in the face of the annihilation machine, misrepresents both the cruel reality of the Gaza Strip and the cruel reality of the ghetto, dismisses the humanity and the vulnerability of the million Israeli Jews and Arabs within rocket range, and ignores completely the role of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees, and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in having sent thousands and thousands and thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel. ”

Aaronavic’ piece in the Times wasn’t very good, although frankly the allegation is so gross that I sympathise with his difficulties in writing a response.

What seems clear now is that the Warsaw Ghetto allegation was planned and co-ordinated by Hamas and its fellow travellers. Presumably for the reasons given above.

In Warsaw, 2000 Jews survived from a population of 440,000 at the commencement of the ghetto, a death rate of over 99%. In Gaza, the population of 200,000 at the end of 1948 has become 1.4 million.

Goebells advised that “when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it”.

To Galloway’s cheerleaders on this board: isn’t that what you’re doing?

Fortunately, sensible people can see this dreadful, offensive tripe for what it is. Hopefully the absurd hyperbole of the pro-Hamas Left will be their ultimate downfall.

Fabian, here you are:
8 foreign reporters allowed into Gaza

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733119444&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

The reason that Israel is not letting in ‘International Media’ reporters into the strip is a simple calculation.

Better the reckon that the news from Gaza is controlled by Hamas and the plentiful anti-Israel stringers in there as it always is in the ‘IM’ than give Hamas et al numerous chances at hostage-taking of those journos stupid enough to want to get in there. As has happened already. Israeli journos were banned from Lebanon for the same reason and one that did go was prosecuted for basically endangering thmesleves but more importantly others both military and civilian who would have to rescue them or ‘exchange’ hundreds of criminals Jew-killers to get them back.

I am not surprised that the Mulsim Brotherhood loving BBC or other IM tossers have not understood that point. Clear?

It is more vile to make that point when not one of them seems interested in either the Sudan or Congo situations. Hotels not comfy enough, no expenses on the go or is it that black Africans killing one another in hundreds of thousands is not nearly as news-worthy. I think this is so.

Hamas is making all it’s point well clear in the IM. The BBC for example has had close to one hundred anti-Israel and pro-Hamas ‘experts’ have their say unchallenged by most. (Paxo has had a beter go at these weasels than anyone else).

And on context of numbers the Palestinians. In this entire ‘genocidal’ conflict we still have not reached the number of Arabs killed by each other in political violence since Hamas seized Gaza.

There has been very little on the IM in the background of the Muslim Brotherhood and how as an International Movement it operates and what its aims are. Or how the despicable Left has bent over and continues to suck them off in public.

Or when the language of Human Rights is abused by their sister organisations on the BBC or other IM it is not challenges in any way.

For example, collective punishment is exactly what any kind of terrorism is.

The PA also is getting off lightly their incompetance and corruption led to the Muslim Brotherhood getting into this position of calling the shots for their entire people. An organisation for whom all civilians are potential martyrs to the cause.

All favour of freedom in Palestine. Freedom from corruption by the rule of Law and maintained by a powerful powerful Civil society and not through threat of violent takeover but those most opposed to any kind of National State in the ME. Freedom from oppressive religious dictatorships which goes for all of the ME and North Africa too. Freedom in education institutions from teachers that promote their obnoxious and contempable politics instead of sharpening Critical and Empirical judgement and techincal knowledge to pursue economic and scientifc goals whic hprogress society and civilisation.

In their hatred of Israel and the blindness to justice the arguments of pro-Hamas and even pro-Palestinian supporters have given the message that violence works and cna succed in the aim of one more push and israel falls.

I see them as cheer-leaders for the continuing Arab genocide of all non-arab citizens and cultures across who have done nothing but suffer under their rule whether Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians, Copts, Jews or people who settled there from Europe.

This is typical of the left and it it is why I now view the left as what they are. A contemptable bunch of lying bastards willing to do or say anything in their lust for power. Engage et al you have done good work in trying but for me you have lost the argument in convincing me that the left can be saved from this ingrained double-think and certainly not trusted by anyone with a love of either truth or freedom.

“KPfeiffer: But you misunderstand. Some journalists are allowed into Gaza. Some Israeli journalists. ” (Palmer)

Who?

“Fabian, here you are:
8 foreign reporters allowed into Gaza” (Rastalion)

Rastalion: Palmer was talking about Israeli journalists being allowed into Gaza. Your link talks about foreign journalists, so it is not relevant.

In fact, the story you link to says:
“McGregor-Wood noted that he, like other members of the TV and print press, was now forced to rely solely on Palestinian sources for news coming out of the Hamas-ruled territory,”
which implicitly says that no Israeli journalist is allowed into Gaza.

Rastallion,
Haaretz journalist Amira Hass was expelled from Gaza, despite the fact, that she is a “good Jewess”. Now Jerusalem Post has written:

“Based on our experience from the war in Lebanon and the way the foreign press has conducted itself in Gaza, we know that Hamas is in complete control of the news, and that reports from Gaza are carried out under duress,” GPO director Danny Seaman said.

“Foreign media in Gaza will become fig leaves for the news, and will give credibility to the reporting,” he said.

The government has long banned Israeli journalists from entering Gaza due to concerns for their safety, but has previously allowed foreign journalists in even during times of fierce fighting.

The Defense Ministry has said foreign journalists will be allowed back into Gaza when Palestinians stop firing rockets at Israel.

When the border is reopened, foreign journalists who enter Gaza, after signing up in advance, will do so at their own risk, the state said.

let’s not forget that the UK, alone in Europe, fought against nazis, fascists and collaborators from Germany, Austria, France, Italy and others

Idiot.

Rastalion.

Seymours stats don’t add up.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23848444/

So, again Palmer, which Israeli journalists are allowed into Gaza as you claimed?

From that Mail piece Tim linked to :

“During his show on Friday, Galloway had a blazing on-air row with the Times leader writer Oliver Kamm about the war in Gaza.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1105103/George-Galloway-axed-TalkSPORT-scuffle-police-pro-Palestinian-rally.html

Did anyone hear that ?

Fabian,
Indeed, you are correct. my bad!

Galloway vs. Kamm - yes the link to the show is here. Kamm appears after about 40 minutes or so. Galloway is his usual pugnacious self.

http://www.spiderednews.com/GeorgeGalloway.htm?vid=984345

Fabian - I have always corrected an error when it is proved to be so. It appears that no Israeli journalists have been so far gi ven access to Gaza. The alleged reason is fear that they might be kidnapped. The question remains why the international media have been refused access to see for themselves what is happening to the civilians in Gaza. However this AP report may go some way to explaining the real reason:
“Daniel Seaman, director of Israel’s Government Press Office, said opening the Erez crossing would endanger its staff. But Seaman also asserted the absence of foreign journalists was good for Israel because the Hamas militants who rule Gaza fabricate coverage to make Israel look bad. “And they get away with it because of the unprofessional cooperation of the foreign press, which takes questionable reports at face value without checking,” he said.

The Mail exaggerates. It was mostly Galloway lunging for the mute button whenever Kamm tried to speak.

“The original founders of the Jewish state could surely not imagine the irony facing Israel today: in escaping the ashes of the Holocaust, they have incarcerated another people in a hell similar in its nature - though not its extent - to the Warsaw ghetto.”

What Iain said at 1:19.

Palmer; The latest in a long line of morons who come on here and think they will do some easy point scoring and then piss off with their tails between their legs.

It is indisputable that comparisons between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto are ludicrous and broadly made to do a bit of jew baiting.

Witness a few of the morons who turn up here.

The Aaranovitch article was excellent by the way. I dont expect he was trying to convince the rastalions or palmers of this world. They are irrelevent. It was the rational and wider British public he was writing for.

MattG

“the Hamas militants who rule Gaza fabricate coverage to make Israel look bad. “And they get away with it because of the unprofessional cooperation of the foreign press, which takes questionable reports at face value without checking,” he said.”

Sounds exactly correct - what are you querying about that John ? Do you really think Hamas would not fabricate coverage ? Do you think Hamas would allow reporting that was critical of them ?

John Palmer, after all Amira Hass from Haaretz was expelled by Hamas despite the fact that she arrived with one of the solidarity boats to Gaza.
How do you explain?
Now 8 foreign journalists could enter to Gaza. They had to sign affidavits at the crossing point.

So the real crime worth talking about here is the ludicrous hyperbole of twats like George Galloway rather than the scores of civillians being destroyed by the IDF in a disgraceful and counter-productive military offensive.

HP spot on as ever.

A useful comparison can be drawn between the warsaw ghetto and Gaza.

The Warsaw ghetto was created by the Nazis in order to implement their policy of murdering jews based on their racist ideology. Hamas also has a racist ideology that mandates them to murder Jews, as stated in their charter and repeated by their spokespeople. If Gaza is a ghetto then responsibility for that lies with the Hamas terror organisation which abrogated international agreements and waged war against Israeli civilians in pursuit of its neo-Nazi racial policy of eradicating the jewish presence in Israel/Palestine. So twin Gaza with Wannsee.

John Palmer, check out Al Jazeera -its website has plenty of reporting from Gaza.

When I call Livingdead and the fat slob antisemites, people on this blog tell me I am silly.
So be it.

the child-killers in the Israeli military

Ah well, the world is full of ignorant antisemitic twats like Donna and Palmer. No surprise there.

a disgraceful and counter-productive military offensive

I assume you have the slightest experience and knowledge of military matters, right?

Of course I can understand the desire to “manage” the news in view of the horrors now emerging in Gaza

Which managed news do you get your info from, eh? Perhaps the blatantly pro-Hamas Al Beeb, perchance?

You can start this by you countering his arguments with rational and sensible rebuttals rather than crude insults

From the braindead jerk who refers to Maven as ‘ravin’.

“The situation in Gaza is bad”

The first words for the Palestinians on Harry’s Place.

Was Germany a ghetto during WW2? People weren’t allowed to leave, either.

MoreMedia: Oliver Kamm talks about the interview on his blog (twice) and provides a link to the broadcast. Not quite a blazing row but an entertaining insight into the ball of slime that is Galloway.

Blimey, you have to be quick around here.

Rastalion.
Seymours stats don’t add up.

Tim,
I think Len’s stats do in fact add up for the time period cited. BTW this is easily verifiabe one way or the other by checking it against the WHO figures.

MattG’s personal abuse appears to contain no rational elelment that would allow me to respond. This, I gather, is par for the course on this site. Ditto “Oxfordian” who would be ashamed of himself if he had the slightest knowledge of who I am. Perhaps “Oxfordian” can tell us whether the long list of Jewish and Israeli critics of the crimes committed by the Israeli onslaught on Gaza are also “anti-semites”. Perhaps everyone who does not agreewith him falls into this catch-all catagory. By the way is Mr Feigel of Likud an “anti-semite?”

“I think Len’s stats do in fact add up…”

So it’s Len now is it? How very lovely. Really Rastalion, you should stop with the schoolboy adoration of such an utter, utter twat.

John Palmer - are you the former Guardian Euro guy then ? I presume you’re not the timeshare fraudster :)

If so - have you met Benjamin Mackie ?

“…alleviates European guilt over complicity with the Nazis, alleviates American guilt over inaction in the face of the annihilation machine…”

What guilt? Guilt for disarming the Third Reich, bombing the Vaterland into the ground only for Franco-Germany to rise from the ashes and create a Greater Socialist Republic. Cry God for Von Mises, St George and the Channel!

TheIrie
6 January 2009, 12:32 pm

Apart from anything else, it gives you lot the chance to change the subject from the criminal massacres that are ongoing.

What about the part where Hamas has tempted extremists around the world to kill my 1 year old son you vicious cunt?

Just listened to the Kamm vs Galloway “debate”. Very funny for the insults I must say, not very enlightening intellectually tbh.

GG seemed to be saying he was forced to have Kammo on as a guest by his producer. What would be funny is if he was only let back on the air with Kammo as his co host.

The number is proportionally equivalent to killing 22,000 in the UK - or, if you prefer, about 3,000 in Darfur.

This is the kind of ‘logic’ that makes the Omagh bomb a greater act of terrorism than 9/11, given the respective populations of both Omagh and New York. In other words, it’s not ‘logic’ at all, but a game with numbers.

Gaza is one of the mostly densely populated regions on earth and in an 11-day military campaign on land and in air approximately 100 or so civilians have died. That’s truly appalling, but comparable to the slaughter (not to mention mass rape) in Darfur, or the Warsaw ghetto? Only in the mind of someone sick enough to select the monicker “Lenin”.

To the airhead Jon Palmer just for your eductaion these are just some of the differences:

Warsaw Ghetto: Nazis controlled the Jews
Gaza: Jews control the movement of the islamofascist terrorists in attempt to restrict suicide bombings

Warsaw Ghetto: Jews had no means of defence
Gaza: Iran supplies Hamas with rockets made in China

Warsaw ghetto; Jews died of starvation and typhus
Gaza; Israel allows in humanitarian aid and treats Arabs in Jewish hospitals

Warsaw Ghetto: Germans hold Jews as part of the Final Solution
Gaza: Hamas vows completion of Final Solution

Warsaw Ghetto: no way out for Jews other than the gas chambers
Gaza: Hamas stop firing rockets and anything possible!

the Guardian is doing PR for Hamas again :(

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas

Khalid Mish’al is arguing that Arafat was poison, by (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)….

“What is being visited on Gaza today was visited on Yasser Arafat before. When he refused to bow to Israel’s dictates, he was imprisoned in his Ramallah headquarters, surrounded by tanks for two years. When this failed to break his resolve, he was murdered by poisoning.”

John Palmer, of course some of those mentioned by you aid and abet antisemites.
Henryk Broder, a German-Jewish journalist wrote about such a person:
“Her speciality are antisemitic-antizionist statements”
The lady went to court and a temporary injunction was issued forbidding Broder to say or write this. However the upper court of Köln quashed the judgment of the lower court.
Some of the prominent Jewish antizionists are the darlings of Neo-Nazi and one can qualify their statements as containing antisemitism.
You are upset about the fact, that there are in Israel extreme rightist. Fine. Do you really accuse the HP or the readers of HP to have sympathies with such extreme rightist in Israel? Do you want to deflect interest from the ideology of Hamas?

“By the way is Mr Feigel of Likud an “anti-semite?”” (Palmer)

I don’t know any Feigel from Likud. The last Feigel I encountered was a mouse who took a ship because there were no cats in America.

“Fabian - I have always corrected an error when it is proved to be so. It appears that no Israeli journalists have been so far gi ven access to Gaza.” (Palmer)

Well, I should have known since for the last 11 days I only see them transmiting from this side of the border.

I think that it is pretty clear that foreign journalists will be shown only what Hamas wants to show, they will be an obstacle for Israeli operations (and later their families will claim that they were explicitly targeted), and therefore will only serve as propaganda for the Hamas. I think that Israel is cutting the middlemen. If Hamas wants to broadcast propaganda, let it produce it and transmit it alone.

I don’t know any Feigel from Likud. The last Feigel I encountered was a mouse who took a ship because there were no cats in America

The mouse’s name was Feival.

Faivel.

Ontario’s largest university workers union is proposing a ban on Israeli academics teaching in the province’s universities, in a move that echoes previous attempts to boycott goods and services from the Jewish state.

The resolution, proposed by CUPE’s Ontario University Workers Coordinating Committee, is in protest of a Dec. 29 bombing that damaged the Islamic University in Gaza.

“In response to an appeal from the Palestinian Federation of Unions of University Professors and Employees, we are ready to say Israeli academics should not be on our campuses unless they explicitly condemn the university bombing and the assault on Gaza in general,” said Sid Ryan, president of CUPE Ontario.

National Post, Canada

My correction to your correction stands corrected…

However, Mr. Ryan said the resolution was a reasonable response to Israel’s attack on the Islamic University, which he likened to the torching of books by Nazis during the Second World War.

Twinning?

I knew a ‘feigele’ once who voted Likud. He said he found all those sweaty Kurdish market boys on the central committee irresistible. Each to their own, I s’pose….

That’s what I like to see a discussion about the Warsaw Ghetto/Gaza ending up identifying a Jewish mouse better than Farfur the Hamas racist anti-Semtic mouse I suppose but there you just another difference to add to the list!

There is just no discussing things with the likes of the Mr Ryan’s of this world a bigot is a bigot is a bigot.

Meanwhile…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

But of course the irrelevant witterings of a national joke like Galloway are the real obscenity.

‘and create a Greater Socialist Republic’

Hoorah!!!! Moonbats in Stereo. I do love I/P threads

FabianfromIsrael - Now this is what I would call an anti-semite
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hYCCZRWjMCmnGrgrArL6LX2zSdCA

So it’s Len now is it? How very lovely. Really Rastalion, you should stop with the schoolboy adoration of such an utter, utter twat.

Paul, it has always been Len FYI.

“Paul, it has always been Len FYI.”

So it’s FYI now is it? “For your information” not good enough for you eh?

mike s, that’s all hamas’s fault. if it wasn’t for hamas they wouldn’t have been in that school and the school was obviously a rocket production centre and they are all foaming anti-semites, and israel right or wrong etc ad nauseam, amisrael chai, am filastin lo chai.

Let’s see:

Even though Hamas is stealing a significant amount of the medical supplies, Israel will not stop shipping food and medical supplies meant for civilians.

Hamas is using mosques, public institutions and private houses as ammunition stores.

On Monday, Israel transfered 49 trucks carrying basic foods into the Gaza Strip through the Kerem Shalom crossing. Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has allowed some 450 trucks into the Gaza Strip.

A “humanitarian corridor” from Gaza City to Kerem Shalom - located near the Egyptian border - has been opened to enable the trucks to travel from southern Gaza to the north.

In addition to the supplies, they began laying a pipeline from Kerem Shalom on Monday in order to deliver fuel into the Gaza Strip. Fuel is usually transferred via the Nahal Oz fuel depot, which could not be operated on Monday due to terrorism threats.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167266926&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

“Israeli academics should not be on our campuses unless they explicitly condemn the university bombing and the assault on Gaza in general”

By this logic, are Palestinians allowed to teach in Canadian kindergartens?

“40 killed - including many children - after a UN school is bombed by the Israelis in Gaza.” - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7814054.stm
Surely - even for some of the fanatics on this site - this is o ne attrocity too far.

So it’s FYI now is it? “For your information” not good enough for you eh?

Obviously not.

John Palmer, keep up man, that’s all hamas’s fault. if it wasn’t for hamas they wouldn’t have been in that school and the school was obviously a rocket production centre and they are all foaming anti-semites, and israel right or wrong etc ad nauseam, unfortunate things happen in war, all israel’s actions are justified, what about tibet and darfur then? am israel chai, am filastin lo chai.

Off Topic: Help if you can. I am NOT part of any concerted or co-ordinated campaign but I can’t help noticing that 5Live Messageboards are full of Islamo-Spammers who are running a concerted campaign of spamming the World Board with offensive anti-Israel and anti-semitic sentiment. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/F2148565

You can help by genuinely complaining at offensive material you might find there. Its an interesting walk through an Islamist Hate sewer. 5Live interestingly allowed one of these spammers “himayalawanderer’ to post immediately instead of forcing them through the usual probation period. That is very odd. You can see their narrow interest by this http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/MP13767061

It is normally impossible for someone to ramp up to post without pre-mod. This poster has been allowed. I wonder why.

I 100% disassociate my opinions or call for action from HP.

I have just discovered I’m not the only misanthropic, knuckle-dragging, ethnic chauvinist, apologist for murder on Earth. The other side has just as many. Well…in all my years..

“The alleged reason is fear that they might be kidnapped. The question remains why the international media have been refused access to see for themselves what is happening to the civilians in Gaza.”

Cos journalists are never kidnapped in Gaza, right?

Ravin Maven, you mean there are other more obnoxious cretins than yourself? Who would have thought, huh?

BBC - At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

Jerusalem Post -At least thirty people were killed in an explosion in a UN-run school in the village of Jabalya in the northern Gaza Strip, according to Palestinian reports. There were reportedly also scores of wounded on the scene. The Israeli military said it was looking into the reports. The military denied having attacked the school, as Palestinians claimed, and was probing to find out the source of the explosion.

Note John Palmer the IDF have indicated that they are not operating in the area where the explosion took place - methinks another “Pallywood” massacre is in the offing.

“40 killed - including many children - after a UN school is bombed by the Israelis in Gaza.” - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7814054.stm
Surely - even for some of the fanatics on this site - this is o ne attrocity too far.

John, the quote you cite doesn’t appear anywhere in the link you provide. The article reads:

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.

It’s important because this was obviously not a strike on a school during a normal school day, in which case the vast majority of those killed would be children.

If this dsitinction is unimportant, why did you attempt to mislead?

Does this mean that when they were lobbing rockets towards Israeli kindergarten before the last Israeli response, they were doing something that they themselves considered ilegitimate? Food for thought.

There’s no way Hamas could have lobbed rockets towards a kindergarten. Qassams don’t have the accuracy needed for such precise targeting.

The Hasbara Buster - so why lob the rockets in the first place if you do not know where they will land (a war crime by the way) if only to inflict death on innocents

There’s no way Hamas could have lobbed rockets towards a kindergarten. Qassams don’t have the accuracy needed for such precise targeting.

You see how it works? In the eyes of the likes of Buster, Hamas are absolved of their moral responsibility because the rocket could hit a bakery, newsagent or a government building just as easily as it could hit a kindergarten.

Way to miss the fucking point.

It is disgusting and disgraceful for anyone to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. Compare it to Stalingrad under seige, or Grozny, or Sarajevo if you really think Israel is prosecuting an unjust war in an unjust way.

This is a statement I agree with. As I said on my blog:

It’s appalling that certain commentators are using the words “genocide,” “Holocaust” or “Nazi” in connection with the Israeli op. These words do a great disservice to the Palestinian cause and make their users’ credibility plummet. No; unlike those who have generalized the word “antisemitism,” and now apply it to, say, people who don’t talk about Tibet, I don’t find it acceptable to similarly devalue the word “genocide.” It means the systematic killing of a people, like the Armenians under the Turks, the Jews and Gypsies under the Nazis, the Tutsis under the Hutus and possibly the Pygmies under Les Éffaceurs. Israel has clearly never committed, will never in any likelihood commit and is certainly not comitting genocide in the present Gaza action.

That said, comparing the Islamists to the Nazis is also egregious. Hizbullah leaders met with Norman Finkelstein — did Hitler meet any Jew?

Brownie “It’s important because this was obviously not a strike on a school during a normal school day, in which case the vast majority of those killed would be children.” No - its an attack on a UN school were civilians had fled last night to escape being killed. A school that Israel knew was a school. See here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7813762.stm

Are you, Brownie, saying that bombing the school was acceptable?

I find it difficult to believe the IDF’s claims that it is going to ‘extraordinary lengths’ to prevent civilian casualties, given that it has managed to kill at least four of its own soldiers and injure about 20 in the course of two days.

And given that this is the second time in one day where civilians in clearly-marked UN-run buildings have been killed, I am tempted to say that the IDF’s claims are pure fucking propaganda.

Given that the building claimed to be struck is UN-run, that the Hamas leadership are underground, that their infrastructure is shattered, and that conditions in the Strip in general are extremely dangerous, I find it hard to believe that news of these deaths, with photos and eyewitness reports from AP photographers is a result of what would have to be an extremely fast-moving and watertight propaganda campaign.

Look at the interview with UN head UNRWA John Ging here, in the context of the earlier attack on a UN-school:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

I am aware that plenty of commentators see the BBC, and probably the UN as a mixture of Hamas shills and naive, congenital idiot do-gooders, but I don’t see how you can come away from that interview and not think Israel’s decision to expand and intensify of this military operation has been morally and politically questionable.

“Perhaps Livingstone and Galloway can answer this: Were Jewish children in the Warsaw Ghetto routinely transported to Germany for life-saving treatment, with the cooperation of Nazi authorities?”

Tell me, Gene. Had the Nazis shipped survivors of the chambers back to the Reich for “treatment”, would you say this mitigates the crime of the chambers?

No…didn’t think so.

The use of the holocaust as an argument by all sides in the present situation in Gaza is a tired, trite, and inappropriate historical paralell. The Palestinians have suffered and will continue to suffer – but they are not undergoing a holocaust.

But the important parallel in relation to the holocaust is not being made. It’s the clear similarity between the Nazis and Hamas as fanatical political movements which while working within a political framework intend to end the democratic process once they have seized power and both sharing a central political objective – the elimination of Jews from within their intended national “living space”.

In that context its important to understand that the holocaust was not premeditated and planned from the outset of the Nazi accession of power in 1933 but was a programme that rapidly accelerated from the first months of the Russian Campaign in 1941 in accord with the longstanding stated aim of the Nazi leadership and for reasons of expediency. By 1941 it was no longer practical to deport Jews from Germany and the territories it occupied but it was possible to shoot Jews en mass on in the East. Some 600,000 Jews were killed in this way before the death (as opposed to labour) Concentration camps were established and functioning in 1943. The best work on how the holocaust programme progressed is the Origins of the Final Solution by Christopher Browning. It’s a worthwhile read for those who want to make allusions to the holocaust.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d9Wg4gjtP3cC&pg=PA354&dq=nebe&lr=#PPP1,M1

Browning shows how a political movement was able in stages to prepare a nation for genocide by first clearly stating its long term objective to find a “Final Solution to the Jewish problem”.

In the same way today Hamas and its leadership clearly state their desire to be rid of all Jews in Palestine but have no real opportunity and plan to carry out such a goal. That doesn’t mean that they do not seek the eventual elimination of all Jews from Israel either by mass deportation or killing if the opportunity presented itself.

The fact that none of the reactionary Leftists like Ken Livingstone, or John Rees touch on this truer holocaust parallel and instead misdirect with unfounded parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto/Gaza and the Naqba and the holocaust is telling.

Callum: “Tell me, Gene. Had the Nazis shipped survivors of the chambers back to the Reich for “treatment”, would you say this mitigates the crime of the chambers?”

Okay, so what does the above tell us? I know: Callum = stupid cunt.

Analogies to the Holocaust or Warsaw Ghetto are bollocks.

I think we’ve established that.

Now then. Let’s discuss the civillian death toll in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli Defence Force.

3 questions:

1. Do you think this is acceptable collateral damage in response to the Hamas rocket attacks?

2. Do you think this is a proportionate response?

3. Do you think these actions are likely to reduce or increase sympathy for Hamas among Palestinians in Gaza?

The UN says it gave the coordinates of the school to the Israelis because it was acting as a shelter for civilian men, women and children.

Does this represent war crimes or not?

http://tinyurl.com/9jnpbp

“The civilian death toll in Gaza increased dramatically today, with reports of more than 40 Palestinians killed after missiles exploded outside a UN school where hundreds of people were sheltering from the continuing Israeli offensive.

Two Israeli tank shells struck the school in Jabaliya refugee camp, spraying shrapnel on people inside and outside the building, according to news agency reports….

Elsewhere, at least 12 members of an extended family, including seven young children, were killed in an air strike on their house in Gaza City…

Hours earlier, three young men – all cousins – died when the Israelis bombed another UN school, the Asma primary school in Gaza City. They were among about 400 people who sought shelter there after fleeing their homes in Beit Lahiya in northern Gaza….

Doctors at Gaza hospitals say that at least one-fifth of the victims are children and a large number of women are among the dead….

In a separate attack earlier in the day, three Palestinians were killed in an air strike on another school run by Unwra, the UN relief agency.

Using leaflets, telephone calls and radio announcements, they have ordered residents in many areas to leave their homes, forcing at least 15,000 Palestinians to flee to safety elsewhere. At least 5,000 are staying in 11 different UN schools and shelters….”

They order them to leave their homes and then bomb UN schools where they shelter.

“Callum: “Tell me, Gene. Had the Nazis shipped survivors of the chambers back to the Reich for “treatment”, would you say this mitigates the crime of the chambers?”

Okay, so what does the above tell us? I know: Callum = stupid cunt”

Oh, you called me a nasty word. Aren’t you clever. You’re so, like, caustic and stuff. You really put me down a peg or two there…mooncalf.

Is there anything that Israel could do to the Palestinians that any of you would have any problem with? Does the Holocaust give Israel the right to do whatever it wants to Palestinians? If the population of Gaza “was reduced by 380,000 through starvation, mass deportations and extermination” would that trouble you?

Are you, Brownie, saying that bombing the school was acceptable?

No, Irie. My comment is cystal clear to anyone with a reading age above 7. I was asking John Palmer why he included a fictitious quote in his comment. As the cat has his tongue, do you have any ideas?

“Oh, you called me a nasty word. Aren’t you clever. You’re so, like, caustic and stuff. You really put me down a peg or two there…mooncalf.”

The above, Callum, for all its self-awareness and nonchalance, doesn’t alter the fact that you are an absolute cunt. So let that be an end to the matter, there’s a good lad.

Stringer: What is the “proportionate response” to 6000+ rockets? Tally up the civilians the rockets killed, and then randomly kill the same number of civilians in Gaza?

I didn’t ask you about your comment. I’m asking you what you think about the bombing of this school? Is that acceptable?

The difference being that in Israel right this moment people are wringing their hands in horror whether or not israel is ultimately found to have been at fault. However if this had G-d forbid have been a school full of Jewsish kids the Arabs would be handing out sweets!

If the population of Gaza “was reduced by 380,000 through starvation, mass deportations and extermination” would that trouble you?

Yes. If the state of Israel was destroyed, would that trouble you?

“The above, Callum, for all its self-awareness and nonchalance, doesn’t alter the fact that you are an absolute cunt. So let that be an end to the matter, there’s a good lad.”

No problem. I clearly cannot win a discussion with a man who can use disgusting words of abuse. You’re clearly on a different intellectual planet from me, son.

Had the Nazis shipped survivors of the chambers back to the Reich for “treatment”, would you say this mitigates the crime of the chambers?

Is this the most stupid commnet ever on HP? I think it is.

There were survivors of the gas chambers. The guards would shoot into the piles of bodies randomly ‘just in case’. If the Jewish victims of Nazis were collateral damage in a bloody conflict and not the specific target of a program of industrial genocide, then yes, this would change the moral equation. And if my Uncle Bob had a pair of tits, he’d be my Aunt Bessie.

The notion that the IDF is going to extraordinary lengths to protect civilians seems like a total and utter lie. The UN has confirmed that it gave the precise coordinates of all its schools to the Israelis, and IDF has bombed some of them. (They also bombed an independent school earlier.) Either they are lying war criminals, or the don’t know what the fuck they are doing. What do you lot think?

“Is this the most stupid commnet ever on HP? I think it is”

So do I. But I bet Callum could beat it if he tried. Come on Callum, we’re waiting!

“There were survivors of the gas chambers. The guards would shoot into the piles of bodies randomly ‘just in case’. If the Jewish victims of Nazis were collateral damage in a bloody conflict and not the specific target of a program of industrial genocide, then yes, this would change the moral equation. And if my Uncle Bob had a pair of tits, he’d be my Aunt Bessie.”

You’re hopelessly confused. It was GENE, not me, who invited the historical analogy in the hope of making some spurious point about caring nature of the Israelis. I was simply asking a follow up question on the basis of that analogy. So speak to Gene about it, my muddled friend.

Tell me, Gene. Had the Nazis shipped survivors of the chambers back to the Reich for “treatment”, would you say this mitigates the crime of the chambers?

Why the quotes around “treatment”? Do you think the Israeli doctors are doing something else?

The most terrible and depressing aspect of this kind of propoganda tactic is that it hurts the very people Galloway and Livingstone (and all others who deploy it) claim to be supporting.

In the late 90’s a million Israeli’s marched for Peace. A decade later all of those people are being compared to the Nazi regime.

Imagine if the Israeli Government and people decided that if you can’t beat them, join them?

Stringer: What is the “proportionate response” to 6000+ rockets? Tally up the civilians the rockets killed, and then randomly kill the same number of civilians in Gaza?

Nope, randomly fire 6,000 rockets irrespective of the damage and casualties.

But that is only to match proportionality.

The concept of “proportionality” has to recognise that the responder is a victim of stimulus and that the stimulator is the agressor.

If Israel is ONLY following the stimulus then why isn’t Israel allowed to respond AND deliver back more as a deterrent. It would be like a game of poker.

“Why the quotes around “treatment”? Do you think the Israeli doctors are doing something else?”

No, I’m sure the doctors are honest and doing the best they can. Can you answer my question?

A must read below. It’s a statment of support FOR Israel by one of the Arab world’s most pominant actors and celebrities. The guy has guts! He wonders whether Hamas thought Israel would respond to the attacks with bouquets of roses…

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733174299&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

TheIrie the fact that you ask the question shows what a vicious Jew baiter you are. The death of any human being to any Jew is a tragedy since we are all created in G-d’s image. However you should be directing your question to the Arabs not us they seem to think this is a PR victory and the more Arab children killed the better - it helps Hamas evade its responsibility for this whole situation. If otherwise why are there no bomb shelters in Gaza? Marking a building with a UN or even a Red Cross sign does not stop Hamas from using it as a launching pad for rockets into Israel.

Either they are lying war criminals, or the don’t know what the fuck they are doing. What do you lot think?

We have yet to hear from the Israeli military why they attacked the school.

BTW, has it been confirmed whether they were air-strikes or tank shellings? Seems to have been some confusion in some of the reports

Callum,
You’ve spent years supporting wars where civilians get killed.
After suppporting the Iraqi “resistance” have you suddenly got squeamish?

” Either they are lying war criminals, or the don’t know what the fuck they are doing. What do you lot think?” (Benjamin)

I think that the incident was not investigated yet, that we have only Palestinian reports of it and I won’t comment on it until I know for sure that the IDF was to blame, and then I will say “stupid soldier, you should be tried to see what is your degree of responsibility in the incident” and finally that Benjamin has had an orgasm when he learnt about the school.

I didn’t ask you about your comment.

In response to my comment, which you quoted in full, you asked:

Are you, Brownie, saying that bombing the school was acceptable?

So you were indeed referring back to my original comment, which gave absolutely no indication that I supported the targeting of the school. Think before you type.

I’m asking you what you think about the bombing of this school? Is that acceptable?

If the facts as reported by the UN official are accurate, I’d say no. On the other hand, Israel has a pretty decent record when it comes to admitting responsibility for its military actions. It is more likely that Tel Aviv would try to justify the attack - on the basis of the school being used as an arms warehouse, or whatever - then it would deny involvement. So let’s wait and see.

The difference between Israel - a country where soldiers and politicians have been tried and convcited for war crimes in the past - and Hamas, is that I would be inclined to believe Israel if she admitted responsibility for grave error in this case. What possible strategic advantage could Israel gain by deliberately and knowingly taking out a UN school filled with civilians?

Of course, we don’t need to ask the same question in relation to Hamas-sponsored war crimes. This is, after all, their raison d’etre.

IDF spokesman: IDF initial investigation shows that the school was used as a mortar site, IDF responded with one shell. The school collapsed as a consequence of the school being booby trapped or having shells stored in it.”

Its not the first time that Hamas has killed Palestinian children

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275254.html

and its has paralells with what the Israelis were falsely accused of in Lebanon.

So Benjamin tone down your accusations till we see what has happened.

By the way, Brownie. Hasbara Buster did say that Hamas was absolved from moral responsibility for the rocket attacks. He just noted, correctly, they cannot target individual schools with them. You may argue that they would if they could.

But yet again, I am in the position of seeing cheerleaders for the dumb fucks that make up the Israeli govt suggest that Hamas may do this or that; while the reality is Israel actually does bomb schools. It’s the the reality of the severed body parts of numerous women and children.

The anti-Israel screamers here automatically think the IDF are lying war criminals, I don’t, I reckon this was a sad accident OR Hamas were hiding behind civilians like the cowardly scum they are OR Hamas blew it up as a propaganda ploy (you can’t deny they have zero interest in the lives of their own people - they “love death” after all).

Why would Israel deliberately target a building full of only civilians ?

On the other hand Hamas definitely do target civilians that is known, none of you can deny it. They are the proven war criminals.

Brownie: ““Is this the most stupid commnet ever on HP? I think it is”

That comment is stupid, and so are comparisons between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto. But I don’t see how posts like this: http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/06/militants/ are any less cheap and exploitative.

And while HP lambast the exaggerations of the left, or the BBC, or German journalists, its unwillingness to post any meaningful criticism of Israel’s actions in Gaza over the past weeks, or question the level of force applied as a matter of deliberate policy (hardly an unimportant question) seems almost like an equal and opposite reaction to these exaggerations. I.e. a radio silence that exaggerates the moral clarity of the IDF’s actions, and makes it seem like the IDF has a blanket moral justification to use any force short of flattening Gaza, as long as it claims to be taking ‘extraordinary measures’ to avoid civilian casualties.

What Fabian said.

It is rather revealing that TheIdiot rushes to swallow Jordegyptian propaganda wholesale and right off the bat.

Just like the so-called “massacre” at Jenin, which turned out to be nothing of the sort, despite TheIrie the rest of his anti-semitic ilk still to this day whining about it.

You see how it works? In the eyes of the likes of Buster, Hamas are absolved of their moral responsibility because the rocket could hit a bakery

No, I’m not absolving them. In fact, I’m on record as stating:

I don’t understand Hama’s use of rockets against Sderot and other Israeli towns. It makes no sense even if you subscribe to some idiotic theory that “all Israelis are soldiers or future soldiers” or such. To put it cynically, if you know the world will condemn you for your actions, at least you should make it sure you hit your enemy hard. For instance, the kidnapping of Gilad Schalit, also indefensible under any civilized standard, at least made sense under a tortured tit-for-tat logic: Israel kidnaps Palestinians, so Hamas kidnapped an Israeli to gain bargaining power and possibly exchange him for the Palestinians held by Israel. Immoral, but not crazy. However, the rockets on Sderot achieve the rare feat, even by Hamas’ standards, of being both immoral and crazy.

That said, claiming that Hamas intentionally targets children is disingenuous. It could only be said if we had seen a situation in which Hamas had the possibility of killing a soldier or a kid and chose to kill the kid.

Hamas simply wants to punish Israel. I don’t deny what they do is immoral. But there’s no indication that they do it only for the pleasure of killing Jews or children.

I was simply asking a follow up question on the basis of that analogy.

Yep, and it was your follow-up that is, officially, the most stupid comment to ever apepar on HP, and to which I referred. No need to speak to Gene about anything.

Well there you go - another Hamas war crime. Firing weapons from a supposedly neutral civilian site and booby trapping the building.

And the anti-Israelis still won’t blame Hamas. What truly warped people.

DeFisker

I see. So one school was apparently used as a “mortar site”. So, for the sake of taking out a mortar, and perhaps some Hamas, Israel kills children. It still bombs schools. Now then, if every school was used as mortar site, would it be acceptable to bomb all schools?

According to the Israelis, at least in the case you note, it takes two sets of dumb fuckers to kill children in schools. Hamas fuckers for putting mortars there, and Israeli fuckers for firing at the school.

Happy New Year.

He just noted, correctly, they cannot target individual schools with them. You may argue that they would if they could.

If you launch an unguided missile into a residential area, you target everybody in that area, by definition. Children at school and workers in offices. The fact that you cannot dictate whether it’s the school that cops rocket or the library, increases the moral repugnance in most warm-blooded, sentient beings.

Benjamin, if Churchill had listened to people like yourself, a swasika would fly from the House of Commons.
The task of a state is to defend the citizens. If Israel were a “normal” state like Russia for instance, it would have done as Russia has done in Grosny.
Can you give us an explanation why Hamas has spent a lot of money for those rocket and arms? After all Israel has left the Gaza strip in summer 2005?
How do you explain, that the leaders of Hamas hide in tunnels instead of doing what they declared they would do, instead of becoming shahids?

Hamas simply wants to punish Israel. I don’t deny what they do is immoral. But there’s no indication that they do it only for the pleasure of killing Jews or children.

You don’t know much about Hamas, do you?

Benjamin - From the sounds of the IDF report the school collapsing and harming the civilians present wasn’t the intention and was in fact caused by a secondary explosion set off by a tank shell. Which would explain the confusion about it being an airstrike. The IDF it seems were attempting to use the minimum of force to combat the mortar fire and it went tragically wrong.

And while HP lambast the exaggerations of the left, or the BBC, or German journalists, its unwillingness to post any meaningful criticism of Israel’s actions in Gaza over the past weeks, or question the level of force applied as a matter of deliberate policy (hardly an unimportant question) seems almost like an equal and opposite reaction to these exaggerations.

I’ll mostly concede that point, although Gordon posted his opposition a few days back, and I have made clear my opposition to anything more than an initial Israeli strike in the comments boxes. I’ve been close to drafting my own blog post to balance the HP view, but I’m afaid I’m a lazy bastard.

I think I’m right in saying that DavidT has strong reservations about Israel’s action (I saw a comment from him the other day), but it just so happens this has kicked off while he’s been on holiday, it seems. If this had all happened in November, I think you’d have a different perspective, especially given DavidT is by far the most prolific poster on this blog.

“IDF spokesman: IDF initial investigation shows that the school was used as a mortar site, IDF responded with one shell. The school collapsed as a consequence of the school being booby trapped or having shells stored in it.”

MMN, so you take at face value, the claims of a military spokesman in the middle of a conflict, on the intensely sensitive issue of collateral damage. Do
you think the IDF speaks the unvarnished truth under all circumstances? I can think of few contexts where claims from representatives of the military are more untrustworthy.

Furthermore, UN officials have stated that 30 people were killed, and 55 injured when Israeli artillery shells landed outside a UN school in Gaza.

And the building wasn’t being fired from, or booby-trapped. It was being run and monitored by the UN, and co-ordinates had been sent to the IDF to avoid exactly this sort of incident. And all Tzipi Livni can say is “she was not aware of the incident” and to insinuate that militants hid in such facilities and used them to launch attacks. So such an incident isn’t to be regretted, but to be justified accordingly. Even if there is no evidence to base it on.

Does this incident ring a bell? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6127250.stm

Do you think the IDF is taking all the care it should do with civilian lives? Should it have embarked on a major military operation in the Gaza Strip knowing full well that thousands of civilians would be killed and injured? How many is too many? It doesn’t matter, because the operation has begun. All it can do now is pretend every civilian killed was being used as a human shield, and it deserves none of the blame.

Brownie, thanks, that’s good to hear

“Perhaps Livingstone and Galloway can answer this: Were Jewish children in the Warsaw Ghetto routinely transported to Germany for life-saving treatment, with the cooperation of Nazi authorities?”

So, Gene, do you accept that that’s the only difference between the Israelis and Nazis?

I suppose the kids at this school didn’t qualify:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009169564177230.html

What would Israel have to do for you to condemn it, just out of interest? If it carpet bombed the whole place, if it murdered tens of thousands of civilians, would you still point to the few Palestinians who made it to Israel to get treated for the limbs that Israel blow off?

If you launch an unguided missile into a residential area, you target everybody in that area, by definition.

Yes, they are in a zone where they could possibly be hit; in practice, these rockets are generally pretty useless at killing anyone or causing a great deal of damage. I said they can’t target individual schools using the rockets. If they can only target a general area rather than the school itself, there is less chance of a school being hit, compared to targeting. Then you have to consider shelters and the explosive yield of the rockets etc.

None of all that reduces Hamas’s moral responsibility for firing the rockets.

Did the Warsaw Ghetto have a Border with Egypt?

Brendan O’Neill skewers what is wrong with today’s anti-imperialism:

“… it’s important to make a distinction between the anger felt by individuals over Israel’s actions and the rise and rise over the past five to 10 years of an increasingly influential, almost semi-official anti-Israel lobby. This lobby, a peculiar alliance of European officials, well-to-do journalists, sections of the old left, anti-globalists, Islamic fundamentalists and neo-Nazis, is drawn to the issue of the Middle East, not because it is committed to meaningful self-determination for Palestinians, but because Israel has become a convenient symbol of many of the things it instinctively hates: national sovereignty; unilateral action; forcefully defending one’s interests; refusing to bow to ‘international morality’; even a sense of commitment to modernity itself.” (rest here)

But yet again, I am in the position of seeing cheerleaders for the dumb fucks that make up the Israeli govt suggest that Hamas may do this or that

No, you pompous retard. It seems this happened in theatre and therefore the Israeli cabinet are not likely to have been party to any decision to return fire. The IDF took a shell and responded based on the data they had. What is the OC on the ground responsible for the welfare of the men under his control expected to do? Just keep taking the hits?

Of course, he could have called in Israel’s unchallenged air support and had the building and the surrounding area flattened. Instead, a shell is met with a shell.

It’s all so easy for you self-righteous fucks, isn’t it?

Waseem - I’ll believe Israel 100 times to Hamas never. Because one side is a generally humanitarian nation at war while the other is a devious bunch of fascist scum who will commit every war crime in the book to cling on to power. See how it works ?

However if the IDF is lying and deliberately targeted the school to kill 40 civilians well I’ll certainly condemn them. But I find that very unlikely tbh.

BTW read this from HRW how Israel has held back in the past when faced by enemy war criminals using human shields :

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/12/15/human-rights-watch-statement-our-november-22-press-release

And all Tzipi Livni can say is “she was not aware of the incident”

Ah yes, fucking Livni. She doesn’t give the impression of being aware of much; she just reads the same script whatever the circumstance. You get the impression she’s much more interested in how she plays domestically to the crazed Israeli rightwing, and international concerns are down the agenda, with Palestinians casualties rock bottom.

All Israeli soldiers killed in action seem to be from friendly fire.

That’s the “existential threat” Israel is facing. A powerless entity that can’t manage to kill even ONE soldier, and which all analysts agreed couldn’t even remotely be compared to Hizbullah in terms of organization and weaponry.

The feeling of disproportionality increases with every passing day.

Of course, he could have called in Israel’s unchallenged air support and had the building and the surrounding area flattened. Instead, a shell is met with a shell.

Oh, thankful for small mercies then. Hit a few schools instead of extensive carpet bombing. Must keep chipper about it, Brownie!

So they should surrender then HB, don’t you agree ?

Any other honourable fighting group faced with such a situation would if only to stop further civilian casualties.

But then Hamas are fascist scum who care nothing for their own people.

“Brendan O’Neill skewers what is wrong with today’s anti-imperialism”

Blimey this is the new RCP “line”, isn’t it? They’ve swapped Marxism-Leninism by way of L Ron Hubbard for Cohenite-Kammism.

I said they can’t target individual schools using the rockets. If they can only target a general area rather than the school itself, there is less chance of a school being hit, compared to targeting.

It’s equivocation like this which explains why everyone thinks you are a wanker and a waste of this blog’s bandwidth.

There is a provision in English law that allows for murder convictions without mens rea. It includes a recklessness test. It’s to allow for those rare situations where, to take a ridiculous example, a nutcase puts on a blindfold and fires indiscriminately from his bedroom window. As far as the law and normal thinking people are concerned, such a person is as guilty of murder as if they’d put the gun to someone’s temple and pulled the trigger.

If you fire rockets that you cannot target into my town, it tells me you don’t give a fuck about me, my children and my fellow civilians. Your comments have no value unless you are trying to dilute the moral responsibility of Hamas. You claim that is not your aim, at the same time as typing comments that indicate otherwise.

What a specimen you are.

It’s OK. Israel always has a get out of jail free card. Anything it does - anything at all - is accidental. Bomb densely populated urban areas, and if, surprise surprise, civilians are killed - that’s OK. Opsy daisy. Nevermind. An accident. It must be, since Israel are humanitarian, democrats, have nothing to gain from killing civilians, etc etc. When you have the view that your side is good, come what may, and there side is bad come what may, its hardly surprising that you end up defending, implicitly or explicitly, things like bombing of schools full of fleeing civilians.

This is inhumane in the extreme. This is how every attrocity commited in the history of man is justified by the perpetrator. We’re doing it because we are good and they are evil, and if we kill the innocent, its a regretable mistake, and if we do it again tomorrow, its another regretable mistake, and again the day after that, and again and again.

This is a sick and evil world. There is no justice. There are no rules. There is only what you can do and what you can’t do. The Israeli government will probably never have to face justice for what it is doing. Justice is for the weak.

Because one side is a generally humanitarian nation at war while the other is a devious bunch of fascist scum who will commit every war crime in the book to cling on to power.

Indeed, a humanitarian nation that kills many, many more Palestinian civilians, including women and children - and not just at war - than the ‘bunch of devious fascist scum’ kill of Israelis.

Oh, thankful for small mercies then. Hit a few schools instead of extensive carpet bombing. Must keep chipper about it, Brownie!

What “school”? The IDF forces on the ground take incmoing. They identify the origin and respond. Who, in such a situation, would presume they are now targeting a school?

Oh, I nearly forgot. It’s Hamas, isn’t it?

“If you fire rockets that you cannot target into my town, it tells me you don’t give a fuck about me, my children and my fellow civilians.” Brownie - don’t you think this is exactly what Israel is doing in Gaza right now. Don’t you think this is exactly the message that the terrified Gazans are getting loud and clear, as they desperately search for a safe place to run to?

Indeed, a humanitarian nation that kills many, many more Palestinian civilians, including women and children - and not just at war - than the ‘bunch of devious fascist scum’ kill of Israelis.

A humanitarian nation that, for all its faults, acts at probably 10% of its capability, whilst its opponent does whatever it can to kill as many Jews as possible.

We cna spot the difference, even if you can’t.

don’t you think this is exactly what Israel is doing in Gaza right now

That fact that there is still a Gaza to speak of proves you wrong. No, I’m not advocating total war agaisnt the people of Gaza. Far from it. I’m simply exposing your moral equivalency for what it is: an intellectual sham.

Oh dear TheIrie are you very unhappy.

Almost as unhappy as when Hamas was firing rockets into Israel I bet. Or when Hamas massacred those Fatah guys. Did you get angry and go on a demo then ?

Well - did you ?

Oh, Brownie, you are deliciously amusing.

This was my statement:

I said they can’t target individual schools using the rockets. If they can only target a general area rather than the school itself, there is less chance of a school being hit, compared to targeting.

This is absolutely correct, although I suppose I should of said ‘that school’ instead ‘a school’ at the third mention of school, to make it absolutely clear.

That does not dilute the moral responsibility of Hamas for firing the rockets. It’s just a comment on technical specification and capability of the rockets. They are pretty crap as offensive weaponry. My comments are wholly uncontroversial.

Brownie - explain that last comment please?

MMN - yes I’m unhappy. I’m distraught actually. I hope that at least cheers you up, as you ignore the bodies piling up.

The feeling of disproportionality increases with every passing day.

I tell you what. The Israeli government should allow the people of Sderot and surrounding towns to manufacture and deploy their own “rudimentary” rockets. You know, to keep the proportionality in balance.

Of course, firing 8,500 rockets (with no telephone warnings or leafleting) into one of the most densely populated regions on earth would likely result in catastrophic civilian casualties. Unlike firing into the southern plains of Israel, you can hardly miss in Gaza city.

So probably thousands of dead civilians instead of doznes, but dig that proportionality, eh?

I’m confident that whatever Gazans may think of the IDF action, they are secretly grateful that the Israel government eschewed the desire of those like you to respond “proportionately”.

“It’s OK. Israel always has a get out of jail free card. Anything it does - anything at all - is accidental” (TheIrie)

No. I think that the incident must be investigated and if it was an IDF shell, the soldier/s who fired it must be put on trial to determine his/their degree of responsibility.

But what do I know about laws? I belong to a semitic tribe from Asia.

TheIrie - I repeat :

Were you distraught when Hamas was firing rockets into Israel. Or when Hamas massacred those Fatah guys. Did you get angry and go on a demo then ?

Well - did you ?

Brownie - explain that last comment please?

It doesn’t need explaining. Seriously.

Oh, Brownie, you are deliciously amusing.

And you are still a wanker.

However, do you believe Israel deliberately targets Palestinian schools?

Yes or no.

Fabian - I agree. I think it should be investigated by the Hague.

Brownie - What did you mean by “That fact that there is still a Gaza to speak of proves you wrong.”

It means that Israel does not act with the same complete and utter disregard for the welfare of non-combatants as their enemies.

You like thought experiments, so try this for size:

Hamas has armed forces the calibre of Israel’s and Israel has a few thousand guerilla fighters with which to wage its campaign. Now, close your eyes and tell me what Tel Aviv looks like?

Fabian - I agree. I think it should be investigated by the Hague.

…he says, within a couple of hours of the incident.

Way to keep it objective, Irie.

Unlike Gaza, Israel operates a civilised criminal justice system. She has tried and convicted war criminals in the past; why do you imply she would not do so again?

A humanitarian nation that, for all its faults, acts at probably 10% of its capability, whilst its opponent does whatever it can to kill as many Jews as possible.

I see, it’s war machine is not in top gear, and it doesn’t mean to kill civilians, but still manages to kill many more than Hamas, its fascist opponent who spends all day and night trying to kill Jews. Apart from that time recently when Hamas implemented a total ceasefire of its rockets for four and half months, in agreement with Israel. A ceasefire that was broken by Hamas only after an Israeli incursion over a tunnel and the killing of 6 Hamas (this fact is confirmed by the Israelis). Despite the breakdown, the lull was deemed a success by none other than the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Indeed, a humanitarian nation that kills many, many more Palestinian civilians, including women and children - and not just at war - than the ‘bunch of devious fascist scum’ kill of Israelis

What a surprise … Hong Kong Benjamin turns out to be just another screeching Jew-hater after all.

Ditto “Oxfordian” who would be ashamed of himself if he had the slightest knowledge of who I am

The day I am ashamed of confronting ignorant antisemites will never come, babe. Do tell us your ineffable name, then, oh great one - some might be impressed, but I won’t, I promise you that. Anyone who compares Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto is ignorant about both, and is simply shooting his mouth off.

But what do I know about laws? I belong to a semitic tribe from Asia.

Good grief Fabian, and here I was thinking you were an Argie, all along!

I see, it’s war machine is not in top gear, and it doesn’t mean to kill civilians, but still manages to kill many more than Hamas, its fascist opponent who spends all day and night trying to kill Jews.

You start with “I see” and then demonstrate that you don’t.

Apart from that time recently when Hamas implemented a total ceasefire of its rockets for four and half months, in agreement with Israel. A ceasefire that was broken by Hamas only after an Israeli incursion over a tunnel and the killing of 6 Hamas (this fact is confirmed by the Israelis).

You attempt to portray yourself as honest broker when really you are a flat out distorter and liar. Planning an act of war is a ceasefire transgression, ergo, Hamas broke the ceasefire when they started to tunnel into Israeli territory, a fact so far not denied by any Hamas spokesman.

Any more lies?

You attempt to portray yourself as honest broker when really you are a flat out distorter and liar.

That is just fucking hilarious coming from Brownie. Wonders never cease!

Brownie

I made no comment about who broke the ceasefire. I simply said that Hamas started firing rockets again after the Israeli incursion, a fact confirmed by the Israelis themselves. Those are the facts. There are no lies.

I think we have a justice system in Israel, theIrie.

(googling a little)

Yes, yes we have.

But you could send some chocolates from The Hague.

Hahaha@Benji. Backtracking extraordinaire

Also, Brownie, the Israelis have not said they identified any particular plot to either kidnap an Israeli or any other act of terrorism. They said they suspected another Shalit type kidnap, or another act. As for the tunnel, its a bit of mystery. If they were digging hole in Palestinian territory, it may be rather difficult to prove that is a breach of ceasefire in itself, even if one suspected it to be a tunnel intended to go to Israel. I have no further information about the tunnel.

Anyway, I quite prepared to consider Hamas breached the ceasefire first in some way, but it still remains unclear. I have never said that Hamas did not.

Benji a few minutes ago: A ceasefire that was broken by Hamas only after an Israeli incursion

Benji now: I made no comment about who broke the ceasefire.

I’d get more sense from my rabbit.

Here, Nibbles…

Yes, Benji, perhaps they were just playing hide and seek!

Or maybe they were arranging a secret delivery of flowers and chocolates!

Brownie

The Israelis claim that an abduction is gross violation of the ceasefire, not the suspected tunnel, which they investigated on the Palestinian side. However no abduction took place, and they have identified no particular plot.

The Israelis say that Hamas then, after the incursion, started firing rockets, for the first time since the lull started, clearly in response to the killing of its 6 operatives.

So whether you call it firing rockets, or breaking the ceasefire, it occurred after an incursion which is shrouded in mystery.

Its difficult to establish how Hamas broke the ceasefire by digging a hole in the ground in Gaza, and not actually abducting anyone, but apparently having a plot to abduct someone foiled, even though the Israelis identify no particular plot and then say it could have been another act.

Benji, what specific act by the Israelis on November 4th constituted the breaking of the lull?

Benjamin: Zzzzzzzzz

Mark T

It really rather depends if the incursion and killing of the operatives can be justified in some way. If it can, Hamas broke the ceasefire, as I stated. If they cannot, Israel did. However, whether the incursion was justified or not, Hamas firing rockets (for the first time in four and half months) was in response to the incursion and killing. This the Isrealis have noted. They have also noted that the incursion was their first in the lull.

Baffling.

On the other thread, Benjamin was repeatedly asking for evidence that the tunnel even existed.

And now he’s spraying squid ink about what it might have been used for.

It really rather depends if the incursion and killing of the operatives can be justified in some way. If it can, Hamas broke the ceasefire, as I stated.

Well, the IDF version of events is that they crossed the border to destroy the tunnel, and were then fired upon by the Hamas militants.

A firefight ensued in which several Israeli soldiers were injured, and six Hamas militants were killed.

Damn those Israelis and their refusal to allow their sworn enemies to dig tunnels into their country. War-mongering bastards.

Brownie - the import of weapons to Gaza would be really shocking if the Israelis had announced and were implementing a freeze on all new weapons purchases and imports. Has that happened? I think not.

huh?

Has that happened?

Has Israel committed state suicide? No, but keep hoping.

Brownie - excellent arguments, especially the “recklessness test” at 6.02 pm.

(You are beautiful when you’re angry. And nobody ever says “ergo” unless their dander’s up.)

It’s pretty clear that if Israel stopped defending itself it would be history. If the Palestinians stopped attacking, then all kinds of things would be possible.

Why is that Benji and TheIrie are so readily prepared to think the absolute worst of Israel and the absolute best of Hamas?

And I’ll second what OP said.

I am puzzled the Tamil tigers themselves state they ‘took’ the civilian adminstration ( their words) up the Jafna Peninsula. I know there were no ceasefires at Stalingrad or Berlin to refresh the ‘fighters’, or civil population. Does Hamas were a uniform? Does anybody really know the GC. retort to this?

Population of Gaza: 2.4 million. growth rate: 2.225%. Increase in population per year: 54 thousand. 500 dead times 31 (to take this to a full year): 15,500. Net population growth: almost 40,000.

Yeah, that’s genocide, they’ll be wiped out… well, certainly by the time the Sun swallows the Earth

(which is not to trivialize the deaths but to point out that people who call this a genocide are liars or stupid or crazy)