Harry’s Place

Hooray for 5 people, peace is at hand!

Sectarian?

Hahaha!

They’re asking for a Fatwa if they dismiss the word of God so lightly.

Flanker, do you think marching children thru the street in soldier outfits helps the cause?

Its like that Monkey Dust sketch where grandad keeps turning up in his SS uniform.

At least they didn’t have little pretend suicide belts strapped around them, as small children in Gaza sometimes do.

What happened to my earlier comment David?

Wow, that is really, really depressing.

Compare & Contrast

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86980

RE: Hooray for 5 people, peace is at hand!

So now even child soldiers are cool as long as they are non-Israeli?

I would say how alarming this is except that in the US the IRA used to be popular. You could go to Irish bars and people would be collecting money for the IRA.

Sigh, I had no idea back then who the IRA was…

I would say how alarming this is except that in the US the IRA used to be popular. You could go to Irish bars and people would be collecting money for the IRA.

Heh, I’ve had Irish Americans boo me for ordering Bushmills because it’s a “Protestant” drink. Apparently, Jameson’s is the whiskey of choice, even though it’s made by a French company. The same people have ended up in fist fights with visiting Irishmen for being totally odious armchair chucks (as the expression has it :)

Man with the grey hair holding a newspaper, second from the right side of the banner - that’s Joe Higgins, Socialist party rep. and former Dial TD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Higgins

Gene At least they didn’t have little pretend suicide belts strapped around them, as small children in Gaza sometimes do.

Yes.

One must be thankful for small mercies.

Hamas really are monsters.

Sinn Fein, the SWP and Hamas all on the same demo.

House!

It’ll be Limerick 1912 all over again with foam mouthed priests and Mad Mullahs leading a multi-faith mob.

I guess this is why children are fair game to the IDF!

I thought I was incapable of being shocked any more, but these people are like an opportunistic infection which takes over when the moral compass is compromised.

I can’t decide which is most appalling, that children were encouraged to take part - obviously this shower believes in the Jesuit saying that give me the child until he’s seven and I’ll give you the man - that it took place in Ireland, which I love, or that these imbeciles hadn’t the first inkling of how offensive they were being.

I agree with Nick that Hamas are monsters, and their fellow travellers in the world are monsters too.

The picture is common middle eastern sewage.The point is the people from Europe who are following them!! We held the Germans collectively responsible! These Europeans live in 2009 not 1939 this is the difference.

At least they didn’t have little pretend suicide belts strapped around them, as small children in Gaza sometimes do.

That’s right Gene. I am glad you are so concerned about the children of Gaza; although some may note a certain irony in that, at this time.

I agree with Nick that Hamas are monsters, and their fellow travellers in the world are monsters too.

In fact neither or “monsters”. The reality is that all are human beings, whether you like it or not. Perhaps its too much too hope that the idiots fighting this conflict -Israeli nationalists and Islamists - would do any other than view each other as “monsters”; and while they are fully aware of the crimes of their opponents, they are too blind and too stupid to see the crimes of their own.

That’s right Gene. I am glad you are so concerned about the children of Gaza; although some may note a certain irony in that, at this time.

No doubt they will delete this comment, maybe I should send it as email but I can’t help saying that you are completely disgusting Benjamin. From of the bottom of my heart, fuck off

In fact neither or “monsters”. The reality is that all are human beings, whether you like it or not. Perhaps its too much too hope that the idiots fighting this conflict -Israeli nationalists and Islamists - would do any other than view each other as “monsters”; and while they are fully aware of the crimes of their opponents, they are too blind and too stupid to see the crimes of their own.

Quite the opposite, it’s trivially easy to raise a child to be a monster, just teach him that other class of human beings should be destroyed and viola you have a monster.

Hamas members don’t see Israelis as “monster” by the way, they see them as the enemies of God. They believe that God has made exterminating them their duty that God will reward by bringing the second coming. They also believe that by fighting Jews and other infidels they insure their place in heaven for themselves and their families and friends - and that there is no other way to insure a place in heaven.

In short they see their “enemies” entirely in terms of a mystical myth where each plays a preordained roll, and they also see themselves as inherently superior more so than royals thought of themselves superior to peasantry.

You might say the problem is Ontological. Religious fanatics don’t create a belief system that has any reference to reality, it comes from stories only.

The only thing you can hope for is that this horrible mysticism becomes less popular and its adherents less powerful - you can’t convince people who believe such madness of anything, you can only deprive them of power over society.

Josh, my somewhat sardonic comment directed at Gene (not rude, or disgusting), was to note his concern for children wearing pretend suicide belts in Gaza (its of deep concern, for many reasons). However, at the same time, I note Israeli nationalists are supporting a military offensive that is resulting in the deaths of a considerable number of Gazan children, and if not killing them, injuring or traumatising them, and making orphans of others. When children are traumatised at such an early age, to such a degree, they can be damaged for life, quite apart from the Hamas propaganda fed to them. This therefore adds fuel to the fires of hatred and indoctrination.

Israel’s wretched foreign minister Livni was dumb enough to declare there was no humanitarian in Gaza*; I can only hope other members of the Israeli political establishment are not so stupid. They must know what happens when scores of children are killed and traumatised, in an already horrendous and desperate situation.

Livni herself openly wondered why Israel had such a poor image in some parts of the world. While antisemitism may be part of the answer in some cases, its flatly moronic responses like hers that contribute to worsening its image too.

Josh,

My comment regarding “monsters” was about how both sides can see each side as almost sub-human. I have no doubt that some in Gaza despise the Jews and want to do away with them; I also have no doubt that some Israeli nationalists are racist and supremacist. If the most extreme elements are galvanised and strengthened by fear, war and its propaganda, we are heading to a very bad place.

“Hamas really are monsters.”

Hmmmm. I agree to some extent. I guess those nice fellows of the IDF are angels. After all, they are fighting terow, innit?

Jewish religious fanatics are held in check by democracy. Their power is limited. Nothing is holding back Hamas’ power.

I am on the side of humanity - I demand that this be remidied.

You worry about trauma from a war that you oppose doing anything to end - thus you are in favor of trauma continuing for generation after generation. Also what of the trauma of the children of sderot?

Sinn Fein would have been delighted marching alongside these Hamas cunts. Remember Sean Lynch and his Exciting U-boat Adventure!

Israel is losing friends around the world. As long as the siege of Gaza continues, sympathy will erode daily. I must confess im somewhat illiterate on the I/P issue which seems to bring out the worst in people on both sides. As a casual observer of events in the ME, i cannot see a peaceful solution to the crisis in Gaza while Israel deploys barbaric tactics that result in the deaths of scores of civilians.

Ultimately, I guess I am disgusted by people’s who dare to congratulate themselves for prescribing moral snake oil such as pacifism.

By the way I just looked this up.

What Edmund Burke actually documented to have written was “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.”

I can’t help think that Benji would be in favor of uselessly falling one by one, in a contemptible struggle.

His more famous quote exists in dozens upon dozens of variations and there is no proof that he uttered any of them.

“The burning of the Israeli flag and the militarisation of children is completely innappropriate (sic).” – Comment by Irish sympathiser reported above.

There are then times when it is appropriate?

I thought at first sight of this photograph it was taken in London – seeing the people on the left hand side and other details. The only time I was in Dublin two years ago there was a ’spontaneous’ riot organised by the IRA, Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, Real IRA or another franchise. The focus of the crowd’s ‘anger’ was a peace parade.

My own disagreement with the leftist bourgeoisie began with their dining table chatter in support of the IRA. The knowledge on display of this nationalist organisation was similarly as ignorant as that expressed today on Islamist politics. “My enemy’s enemy is my friend” is a dire admission of failure.

i thought these protests were for nonviolence, for peace, no more killing

Shows that the UK media totally misleads people about the nature of Hamas and their popularity in Gaza.

kiguthara hunyu wrote:

As a casual observer of events in the ME, i cannot see a peaceful solution to the crisis in Gaza while Israel deploys barbaric tactics that result in the deaths of scores of civilians.

Making this kind of comment is quite easy. What’s more difficult is describing how the Israelis should be expected to respond to years of rocket firings into its southern towns by a Gaza government that has no interest in peaceful coexistence.

What’s more difficult is describing how the Israelis should be expected to respond to years of rocket firings into its southern towns by a Gaza government that has no interest in peaceful coexistence

Indeed. I have noticed that. It appears tto a certain brand of liberal that their own moral smugness is much more important than Jews being allowed to defend themselves.

Doktor Wer, it’s not “chucks”, it’s “chuckies” (well, “tiocfaidhs” actually - but we can’t expect many people to get the pronunciation right if we spell it properly!)

If smugness were poison, Benji would kill half of Hong Kong.

The Nazi’s liked dressing up little children as soldiers too.

Come to think of it so did Mussolini.

Hmm I wonder how I could link these two groups with Hamas ? Let’s have a little read through their policy positions.

What’s more difficult is describing how the Israelis should be expected to respond to years of rocket firings into its southern towns by a Gaza government that has no interest in peaceful coexistence.

Hamas held a complete ceasefire for four and a half months in 2008, as confirmed by Israel. Israel and Hamas negotiated this ceasefire through Egypt, after Hamas agreed to negotiate indirectly with Israel. Hamas has also indicated that it recognises the 67 borders, which is a small step forward, however incomplete. When Hamas formed a unity govt with Fatah, it also said it was willing to negotiate with Israel. Nothing is perfect, nothing is certain, but slowly progress can be made. You only play into the hands of extremists by killing women and children in Gaza.

“it appears tto a certain brand of liberal that their own moral smugness is much more important than Jews being allowed to defend themselves.”

Wow. Of course expressing disgust with Israeli barbarity in Gaza is now moral smugness by liberals. Self defence involves air strikes, shelling of densely populated areas? I’d hate to see Israel’s outright aggression if their action in Gaza constitutes self defence. BTW, why did you use the term ‘Jews’ rather than Israelis?
Are you like them people who see this conflict in terms of Jew vs Muslim?

I have no doubt that some in Gaza despise the Jews and want to do away with them;

Yeah, this antipathy has its roots in childhood, where anti-Semitism is part of the education curriculum and state TV cartoons include Jewish pig, monkey and dog characters. Let’s face it, it would be difficult to imagine growing up not hating Jews, wouldn’t it?

Self defence involves air strikes, shelling of densely populated areas?

What else can the IDF do when Hamas uses hospitals, schools, mosques and even private homes as weapons depots?

In other words, Hamas is deliberately placing 1000s of Palestinians in harms way, and yet your only complaint is with Israel.

What do you suggest Israel do to stop the rocket attacks?

What do you suggest Israel do to stop the rocket attacks?

Well, the last time Hamas stopped their rocket and mortar attacks it was for four and a half months in 2008. This was achieved by negotiation, with the help of Egypt.

A lull in rocket attacks at the same time that they continued to smuggle in arms from Iran and dig tunnels into Israeli territory. That’s some partner for peace.

And wen Israel takes steps to thwart Hamas’ plans to kidnap her soldiers, Hamas think that’s so unfair they recommence their daily barrage of rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

Some ‘partner for peace’ that is.

Hamas held a complete ceasefire for four and a half months in 2008, as confirmed by Israel.

Israel never confirmed a “complete ceasefire” for four and a half months in 2008. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website has a small graph with a month to month breakdown of rocket fire and mortar shelling as compiled by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC). Not a single month passed in 2008 when no mortar or rocket was shot from Gaza into Israel according to the graph.

Another table demonstrating that Hamas never held a complete ceasefire in 2008 is compiled here. It even includes mortar and rockets that were fired from Gaza but fell short of Israel and landed in Gaza and links each incident to a newspaper story.

Make no mistake. Besides spinning or misinforming, Mackie is arguing that although firing rockets and mortars into Israel is wrong, since the world isn’t perfect, Israeli citizens ought to be willing to live with rockets and mortar fired at them so that extremists don’t get riled up. Mackie’s ‘horse’ in this conflict between Hamas and Israel is his apprehension that if Hamas, or other Islamist extremists are confronted militarily, they might attack other targets beside Israeli citizens, like Europeans. Now that would be unacceptable for Mackie, the nationalist.

“Ireland understands these things, better than most.”

But still the lessons have not been learned.

What with a Mr Ging, UN Worker, giving us his Hamas biased views on most news channels, it seems that I now have to see this on the streets of Dublin.

Exactly which organisation thinks that Irish history gives them this kind of role-model for children.

Surely this is child abuse/neglect?

Lbnaz

Hamas held a complete ceasefire. Hamas fired no rockets or mortars into Israel from the start of the lull until after the incursion by Israel on Nov 4 (whether or not that incursion was justified). The occasional rockets and mortars that were fired at that time were fired by other groups, as confirmed by Israel. There was a massive reduction of rocket and mortar attacks at that time.

dig tunnels into Israeli territory.

Israel said that a tunnel was being dug to Israel, and investigated it on the Gaza side. In the process they killed 6 Hamas, and as regards the abduction, that’s rather vague; the Israelis state it could have been used to abduct people, or some other operation. In fact, if you look at official Israeli sources, the whole thing is very vague. There is no detail about the tunnel, and no detail about any plot.

As regards preparation, planning, etc, that’s precisely what Israel was doing too for the current carnage, at the time of the ceasefire, as confirmed by Barak.

“the Israelis state it could have been used to abduct people, or some other operation”

Yeah, just to kill a few kids.

Benji, you really don’t see why Israel would be sort of worried about Hamas digging tunnels into it?

Benji, you support a two state solution, right? How do you reconcile those views with your support for Hamas?

Hamas held a complete ceasefire. Hamas fired no rockets or mortars into Israel from the start of the lull until after the incursion by Israel on Nov 4

Come on Benjamin, I provided 2 links @ 5:10 pm disproving your contention and you just repeated your contention without providing any substantiation.

What evidence do you have to support your latest allegation that groups other than Hamas were firing rockets and mortar at Israeli civilians for four and a half months?

And even if we allow your latest contention, what evidence can you marshall to substantiate that those “other groups” didn’t have the permission or even the assistance of Hamas to fire?

Did Hamas arrest members of these rogue groups after the mortars and qassams were fired Benjamin?

Or is it your opinion that Hamas is only efficient at going after (i.e. maiming or murdering) Fatah members and alleged collaborators with the zionist entity™, but hasn’t the organizational wherewithal to go after groups shooting rockets and mortar?

Ignore Benji. He’s just an asshole who gets some sort of naughty frisson from take the wrong side and telling people that Jews have no right to self defense.

It’s very much like a sexual-humiliation-perversion. The humiliation being told you have no right to defend yourself is similar to the humiliation of being told you should be ashamed of your sexual desire and have no right to sexual pleasure.