Harry's Place

“pro-Hamas demonstrators”

dear oh dear

The pro-Hamas demonstrators (cheerleader G Galloway) are vicious – they throw things at the police every night – they really do themselves and their cause no favours at all

Roobin is the guy on Lenins Tomb who always loses his wad at the thought of a massive demonstartion of student worker power, only to find that the leader he was following has just been demoted without his knowledge.
Even worse, they’ve run out of pot noodles at the Londis on his way home.

I’m sure the bricks were to build a barbecue and the knives were for whittling.

Does anyone have any more photos of the demo last night?

“The pro-Hamas demonstrators were opposed last night at the Israeli Embassy”. They’ve been opposed every night by genuine socialists within the demostrations, didn’t need another load of right-wing religious nutters to turn up and wind up the police

Bob,

I have to assume that you are getting all sticky and moist at the prospect of being literally “all Hamas now”?

B.

From today’s times.

The rocket attacks came one day after Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah’s leader in Lebanon, delivered a bellicose address to thousands of supporters via a videolink from his Beirut headquarters.

“We have to act as though all possibilities are real and open (against Israel) and we must always be ready for any eventuality,” he said.

“I say to (Israeli Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert, the loser, the vanquished in Lebanon (in 2006) that you cannot overcome Hamas or Hezbollah. Your 2006 war will be but a walk in the park compared to what we have prepared for you in the event of a new offensive.
We are ready to sacrifice our souls, our brothers and sisters, our “children, our loved ones for what we believe in,” he continued. “We will not abandon the fight or our weapons.”

Only psychotics would support Hamas.

Yes martin ohr, the police look very wound up in the first two photographs.

This is getting ridiculous – do I really need to come to Harry’s to read what some bearded socialist wrote in a letter to the editor somewhere, or what cranks at a forum wrote? Who cares!

from israel: “kol hakavod to those who braved the cold and dangers to participate”

Martin

We’ll happily publicise your demonstrations, if you’d like to get details to me.

So instead of Israel entering the fray in Lebanon, somebody fires them from Lebanon – deja vu? Its IRAN stupid!!

Let one thing be clear: Whatever your love for the IDF, there have been no Pro-Hamas demonstrations in London.

There was only one banner on the last big demo (last Saturday) saying “We Are Hamas”. Those holding it desperately tried to get onto the speakers plinth on Trafalgar square. John Rees and other SWP members who were acting as STWC stewards repeatedly told them to beat it. They physically barred them entry as the Hamas supporters pushed and attempted to get in (they failed). I suppose if the STWC stewards pulled out M16s and gunned down the Hamas supporter’s Harrys Place would still accuse the left of a Red-Brown alliance

The fact that the StWC has muslims and socialists involved is clear proof that everyone who doesn’t support Israel is a communist-jihadist (as clerical rule and worker’s rights amount to the same thing anyway). It’s only those who call for big business rule that have the worker’s interests. More capitalism! More war!

Meanwhile in Senegal, this is going on:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7817100.stm

Where are the outraged protests and violent demos outside the Senegalese Embassy?

David T, if you are are reading (and like BB I assume you see all) could this be turned into a post to dilute the Israel-Pal stuff a bit?

John Rees and other SWP members who were acting as STWC stewards repeatedly told them to beat it.

Not even the SWP listens to John Rees anymore.

Haven’t you heard?

FC

So you support Israel’s action against Hamas then. Good.

‘Free free Palestine’ is an empty slogan. Hamas has butchered Fatah members.

You cannot sit on the fence between Hamas and Fatah. You are simply irrelevant to what’s happening.

I’ve posted a report and some photos from last night:

http://edgar1981.blogspot.com/

Edgar

I was there on the Solidarity With Israel rally last night.
The pro-Hamas demonstrators were absolute vermin. I thought I’d seen it all but they were scum.

Blimey. And this is coming from Julie Burchill’s cabin boy…

From Israel we sit and watch what is going on in London. Thank you to those who braved the cold and the abuse from the pathetic supporters of terrorism believe me it gives us strength. However we are concerned that you do not put yourselves or your children or elderly in harm’s way whether at the demonstrations or in your schools or synagogues which unfortunately as history has taught us will become the targets egged on by the crass British media reporting which is whipping up anti-Semitic sentiment or should I say bringing it to the surface. Kol hakoved but keep vigilant!

The next pro-Israel demo is Sunday 11-12, be there 10.40, Trafalgar Square.

Theme: “End Hamas Terror, Peace for the People of Israel and Gaza”

So you support Israel’s action against Hamas then. Good.

No I don’t. Not against the deliberate civilian targets said to be “Hamas”.

‘Free free Palestine’ is an empty slogan. Hamas has butchered Fatah members.

No it is not an empty slogan. Free Palestine, means free Palestine from occupation, blockade, bombardment and the ghetto-isation of Gaza (the most populated stretch of land in the world, where no where is safe from the bombs).

The fact that Hamas has killed Fatah members is entirely unrelated. The fact that Ho Chi Minh killed Vietnamese Trotskyists did not make the call for “America out of Vietnam now” any less logical or moral.

You cannot sit on the fence between Hamas and Fatah. You are simply irrelevant to what’s happening.

I don’t sit on the fence. I am closer to the more secular-nationalist ideas of some allied to Fatah, but Fatah have no democratic credentials anymore. They lost the election and the support of the people and tried to take over in a coup last year.

Hamas do not represent my politics, neither did Ho Chi Minh of Vietnam, nor did the Mujaheddin resisting Soviet Invasion, nor do the IRA, and so on. None of this makes the call for ending pointless bloodshed anymore necessary (how many of these wars did the aggressor win incidentally?)

Chas Newkey-Burden said:”I was there on the Solidarity With Israel rally last night.
The pro-Hamas demonstrators were absolute vermin. I thought I’d seen it all but they were scum.”

I’m very very loathe to use the word vermin to describe anyone but having seen (and got) some disgusting antisemitic abuse from the Pro Hamas supporters on so called ‘Left’ boards and seen the behavior of the pro Hamas demonstrators I will reluctantly agree with you that they are scum and vermin.

I’ll definitely be at the Anti Hamas demo on Sunday.

nor did the Mujaheddin resisting Soviet Invasion

You better not tell the CPBers who run the STWC that.

Or George Galloway.

Not even the SWP listens to John Rees anymore.

Haven’t you heard?

What an intelligent response. You dodged the point entirely and again turn a blind eye to anything that contradicts your McCarthyite logic.

Notice the Hamas class warrior kicking in the barrier (last photo above) is wearing New Balance shoes, made in a Far Eastern sweatshop by an iconic symbol of American imperialist Zionist capitalism. But I’m sure he threw them into Downing Street at Saturday’s pro-Hamas demo.

FC: “Gaza (the most populated stretch of land in the world)”

Bollox…………….

Area Population Density (persons/sq. mile)
Gaza 8666
District of Columbia 9176
Gibraltar 11,990
Singapore 17,751
Hong Kong 17,833
Monaco 41,608
Macau 71,466
Cairo 82,893
Calcutta 108,005
Manila 113,810

(Sources – Statistical Abstract of the United States, 2004-2005, Tables 18 and 1321; Demographia — Population Density: Selected International Urban Areas and Components )

You better not tell the CPBers who run the STWC that.

Or George Galloway.

Again another entirely useless point. Not everyone agrees in a coalition.

The Labour party also has entirely contradictory elements. Do you agree with the socialist left in the Labour party? Do you agree with the New Labour right in the Labour party? (Silly Question)

What utter morons some of these people can be!

I doubt anybody objects to the demonstrations as they are democrats and presumably agree with the Orwell quote that is on the HP Blog mast. Provided: it is peaceful – with no assaults or criminal damage. (This encompasses Pro-Israeli counter-demonstrators. A loud verbal, slanging match is to be expected, and fully understandable given the emotive nature of this issue; but a few cusses and raised voices should be its extent.)

Morons who hint at storming the Embassy or taking on the Police will soon discover:

the police have bigger truncheons, etc at their command and the legal provision to use them, as well as moral support from many around the country

the use of criminal damage and assaults will merely lead to a curtailing of the right to demonstrate.

As Ben Elton would say: knocking a Bobby’s helmet off is neither big or clever.

As has been pointed out – “pro-Hamas” – utter nonsense.

Anyway, what are the so-called “pro-Israel” demonstrators calling for? What, exactly, is their message?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/11/israel

The narrow Gaza Strip is already the most densely populated stretch of land in the world, home to 1.4 million Palestinians, nearly two-thirds of them below the poverty line. The territory is now spiralling down into economic crisis.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

It is amongst the most densely populated areas on Earth. About 1.5 million people live on a surface of roughly 493 km².

I’ll accept that it’s status as the most densely populated area is contestable. It is most certainly _one_ of the most densely populated areas of the earth. Also it undoubtedly is a place where there is no freedom of travel, access to medicine, or anywhere to hide from the bombs currently being dropped. Surely any moron can see this is a breeding ground for Hamas ideas? (regardless of who’s fault this is)

As for SPGB gray’s message, I suggest he looks at this:

http://www.sources.com/Releases/NR135.htm

the Irie once spent an afternoon trying to prove that 1.5 million people in Gaza occupied a piece of land the same size as a football pitch.

Remember Irie?

“Christians Standing With Israel” swivel eyed loons well represented in the Pro-IDF demo I see. Have they too forgotten the sixth commandment? Or just in a hurry for the end of the world when the Jews are converted to their own brand of utter horseshit.

FC’s thoughts on the christian’s on the pro-Israel demo:

THIS IS A CLEAR EXAMPLE OF THE PRO-ZIONISTS MERGING WITH RADICAL CHRISTIAN ELEMENTS. THIS MARRIAGE OF OPPORTUNISM AND EXTREME CONSERVATISM WILL LEAD TO A NEW FORM OF CHRISTIAN-ZIONIST-FASCISM.

Thanks Trundlemaster. I too hestitate to use such words. But there are no nicer ways to describe that lot last night.

How dare christians attend a demonstration!!!

How dare Zionists march with these Christians!!

How dare Zionists even speak to Christians without trying to convert them to Judaism/Athiesm!!

FC

the press statement doesn’t mention how the Canadian lasses gained entry to the consulate.

I imagine they managed it peacefully and didn’t contemplate force as the message board clips above suggest some (albiet a minority) are thinking of in London

I was there last night – in fact me and my mate were one of the first to arrive. As we crossed from the station and walked towards the embassy, we were greeted by lunatics waving Hamas and Hezbollah flags.

In front of us walked a young man, wearing a kippah. He got out of his bag and Israeli flag and was immediately taken to the side by two police officers. After questioning him for about 10 minutes, he was issued a caution.

After he was released we went up to talk to him – he showed us the police caution – and i kid you not – it stated that by getting out an Israeli flag he was causing provocation to the pro palestinian demonstration.

As much as I realise that the police have a difficult job to do – FFS, really, provocation.

I am reminded however of that Tom Robinson ditty from the early 80’s. . . .

The British Police are the best in the world
I don’t believe one of these stories I’ve heard

Incidentally you are aware the BNP fully and rabidly support Isarel’s military actions???

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3324

There are an awful lot of Union Jacks in that crowd. I wonder who it might be waving those…

I imagine they managed it peacefully and didn’t contemplate force as the message board clips above suggest some (albiet a minority) are thinking of in London

I’m not sure if SPGB stands for Socialist Party of Great Britain (I doubt it somehow- here of all places). One thing I like about the De Leonist/wobbly arguement is that it understands that with enough people, violence is generally avoidable. I support this (but not the organisation).

“There are an awful lot of Union Jacks in that crowd. I wonder who it might be waving those…”

Oh yes because the only people who wave Union Jacks are BMP members!

Nothing wrong with waving the Union Jack, the flags of Hamas and Hezbollah, now that’s a different story.

FC said:”Incidentally you are aware the BNP fully and rabidly support Isarel’s military actions???

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3324

There are an awful lot of Union Jacks in that crowd. I wonder who it might be waving those…”

Just because someone waves a Union Jack doesn’t mean they are bnp fash. I put up a St Georges flag for football but it doesn’t mean I want to kill my Polish neighbours.

I would venture to say that there were probably far less bnp loons on the Anti Hamas demo side than swivel eyed terrorist supporting plastic revolutionaries on the Pro Hamas demo side.

I used to be on the far left but I walked away in dismay and horror as I saw the links being forged with blatant antisemites and supporters of clerical fascism.

Yossi UK said:”Nothing wrong with waving the Union Jack, the flags of Hamas and Hezbollah, now that’s a different story.”

I couldn’t agree more there. Waving a Union Flag or an Israeli shows that you support a democratic country. Waving a Hezbollah or a Hamas flag shows you support fascism.

your McCarthyite logic.

What is McCarthyite logic?

Why is political opposition to the racist and totalitarian SWP “McCarthyite”?

Is it McCarthyite to organise politically against the BNP?

Not everyone agrees in a coalition.

Oh excellent. Well, come and join our coalition. We’re opposed to fascist scum, whether they’re dressed up in Islamist or White Supremacist garb?

Or would you rather stand with Hamas?

I was there last night, with a warmed heart (and feet made of pure ice).

Notice the police in the photo above – all facing away from the pro-Israel people, because they fully expected us to be attacked, rather than us to attack them or the pro-terrorist crowd on the other side of the police van.

Oh – did I say “pro-Terrorist” – I guess those yellow flags might have been pro-Watford. The green bandanas may have been an envirmonental statement…

It was genuinely scary afterwards with gangs of Middle Eastern thugs in keffiyehs, roaming Kensington High Street looking for Jews to beat up.

They are truly the scum of the Earth, but after 2000 years of persecution, expulsion from our native land, the attempted elimination of our people and the continuous bombardment by their brothers in Islamofascism – us kikes have a saying “NEVER AGAIN”.

We weren’t intimidated, we will not be intimidated and we are getting stronger.

To the leftists reading this. CHoose your enemies and friends carefully. At the moment, a frightening number of you value radical posturing over defending the tiny progressive state fighting for its life. You choose to side with the racist oppressors of women, murderers of gays whose sole goal is opposing people and terrorising the enemy and their own people. Sure, you’ll look hard, but at the end of the day you are tainted and shallow.

FC, 3 questions: Doesn’t the Free Palestine slogan mean free it from self determination for Jews from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea? Is the occupation 42 or 60 years old? And do measures taken that would seek to restrict Iran’s ability to bring weapons into Gaza constitute a blockade that must be dismantled?

I welcome Christians trying to convert Jews. As long as it isn’t impolite or inappropriate, I try to persuade religious people that God does not exist, and I would be offended if they did not treat my arguments with sufficient respect at least to try to argue back.

Whether you believe in God or not, the key issue is whether you support a liberal democratic, pluralist and secular state.

Those of you who support Hamas and the Socialist Workers’ Party know perfectly well where you stand on that issue.

ctd as may have been an envirmonental statement…

It was genuinely scary afterwards with gangs of Middle Eastern thugs in keffiyehs, roaming Kensington High Street looking for Jews to beat up.

They are truly the scum of the Earth, but after 2000 years of persecution, expulsion from our native land, the attempted elimination of our people and the continuous bombardment by their brothers in Islamofascism – us kikes have a saying “NEVER AGAIN”.

We weren’t intimidated, we will not be intimidated and we are getting stronger.

To the leftists reading this. CHoose your enemies and friends carefully. At the moment, a frightening number of you value radical posturing over defending the tiny progressive state fighting for its life. You choose to side with the racist oppressors of women, murderers of gays whose sole goal is opposing people and terrorising the enemy and their own people. Sure, you’ll look hard, but at the end of the day you are tainted and shallow.

third try!!!!

I was there last night, with a warmed heart (and feet made of pure ice).

Notice the police in the photo above – all facing away from the pro-Israel people, because they fully expected us to be attacked, rather than us to attack them or the pro-terrorist crowd on the other side of the police van.

Oh – did I say “pro-Terrorist” – I guess those yellow flags might have been pro-Watford. The green bandanas may have been an envirmonental statement…

It was genuinely scary afterwards with gangs of Middle Eastern thugs in keffiyehs, roaming Kensington High Street looking for Jews to beat up.

They are truly the scum of the Earth, but after 2000 years of persecution, expulsion from our native land, the attempted elimination of our people and the continuous bombardment by their brothers in Islamofascism – us kikes have a saying “NEVER AGAIN”.

We weren’t intimidated, we will not be intimidated and we are getting stronger.

To the leftists reading this. CHoose your enemies and friends carefully. At the moment, a frightening number of you value radical posturing over defending the tiny progressive state fighting for its life. You choose to side with the racist oppressors of women, murderers of gays whose only goals are opposing peace and terrorising the enemy and their own people. Sure, you’ll look hard, but at the end of the day you are tainted and shallow.

The efforts to keep a Hamas banner off the stage are rather redundant when the rally was organised by the British Muslim Initiative (President: Mohammed Sawalha), whose placards were all over the demonstration.

FC

Are you saying it’s wrong to wave a Union Jack in London? Why? Because it provokes the M******???

Can’t you see how ludicrous you are being?

What was the message of the “pro-Israel” demonstration? What were they calling for? Anyone?

Accoring to the BBC, Mohammed Sawalha was one of the founders of Hamas.

So the demonstrators were, in fact, on a pro-Hamas demonstration.

“What was the message of the “pro-Israel” demonstration? What were they calling for? Anyone?”

Just read the banners,

“End to Hamas Terror”

“Peace for the people of Israel and Gaza”

Plus they were their to express their solidarity and support for Israel.

I am against pro-Israeli demos for the very reason that they invite this sort of danger.

Jews have NOTHING to apologise for. This is nothing to do with the behaviour of Jews in the UK. Israel doesn’t need to see your support.

Please stay at home and keep safe from these killers. I don’t want YOU to be a martyr and lose your life.

TheIrie

If you look at the placards, you’ll see what they say:

“END HAMAS TERROR – PEACE FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AND GAZA”

The other demonstration was called by the BMI, which is a Hamas affiliated organisation, whose President is a senior Hamas militant.

Its message was as follows:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

FC
“Also it undoubtedly is a place where there is no freedom of travel, access to medicine, or anywhere to hide from the bombs currently being dropped. Surely any moron can see this is a breeding ground for Hamas ideas?”

Undoubtedly? Why?

I’ll probably have to post these links in my every comment for the Gaza strike, for the morons who can see what isn’t there.

1. No freedom of travel
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/middleeast/04mideast.html
Make sure to read it all, or at least until this line:”"Even the Israelis never dared prevent the pilgrimage this way,” Mr. Amin complained”
There are articles on this subject in your Guardian as well, if you feel more “at home” with it.

2,Regarding the breeding ground for Hamas ideas, any moron can see that this specific ground is an imported item “made in Iran”, courtesy of the mullahs. And it goes a long way back:
http://israelsmessiah.com/israel_today/victims_list_1.htm

If this is not enough for you, let me know. There’s more. I don’t want to put more than two links per post, to avoid the moderation queue.

You are pure gold, Maven, but as I said – it was life affirming.

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, does it? Their parents must be sooo proud! (The sick thing is that they probably are…)

I didn’t realise that there were so many three year olds in grown up bodies.

Maven

“Israel doesn’t need to see your support”

Thanks for your concern but that is wrong. I’ve had lots of emails of appreciation from Israel for last night. And I hear the Ambassador was really grateful, he met a few of the pro-Israel demonstrators last night.

Do David, under the circumstances the police presence was a total waste of tax payers money.

All we needed were a row of Gharkhad tress.

BTW – the police estimate of 500 on our side of the apartheid vans, has got to be way off base. 1,500 minimum, nu?

So David, under the circumstances the police presence was a total waste of tax payers money.

All we needed were a row of Gharkhad tress.

BTW – the police estimate of 500 on our side of the apartheid vans, has got to be way off base. 1,500 minimum, nu?

pimf

There are an awful lot of Union Jacks in that crowd. I wonder who it might be waving those…

Citizens of the United Kingdom, waving the flag of the United Kingdom. Inside the United Kingdom. Disgraceful eh?

Where do these self-hating dolts such as FC and TheIrie come from?

“After he was released we went up to talk to him – he showed us the police caution – and i kid you not – it stated that by getting out an Israeli flag he was causing provocation to the pro palestinian demonstration.”

What if he’d brought it along to burn for an Indymedia photo gallery?

FC, TheIrie: Can you give us the time(s), date(s) of and weblink(s) to any peaceable march by the people in Gaza against the policies of “democratically elected” Hamas, or indeed any demonstration against Hamas?

I thought not.

By contrast there are regular protest marches in Israel.

Which, then is the freer country?

Gaza should indeed be free – of Hamas scum and their fellow travellers around the world who get off on the suffering Hamas causes and make it worse.

Uptight

1500 yes

Maven said:”I am against pro-Israeli demos for the very reason that they invite this sort of danger.

Jews have NOTHING to apologise for. This is nothing to do with the behaviour of Jews in the UK. Israel doesn’t need to see your support.

Please stay at home and keep safe from these killers. I don’t want YOU to be a martyr and lose your life.”

Maven I agree with you on many things but may I respectfully disagree this time. It is important to get out there and oppose the Left/Islamofash on this and many other matters.

It is not apologising for being Jewish far from it its standing up to vicious lies and half truths promulgated by the Pro Hamas Left and their allies.

As to whether or not Israel needs the support of others outside both Jewish and non Jewish that is a different matter but what I will say is that the average Palestinian needs the sort of government that the Pro Hamas left are calling for like a hole in the head.

I’m not going with any intention of being a martyr or anything like that and I don’t think that it will come to that. I’ve had enough of and refuse to bow down and be frightened of the sort of people who want to dismantle democracy and endangering all both Jew and non Jew.

by getting out an Israeli flag he was causing provocation to the pro palestinian demonstration.

Presumably it’s a two-way street. If the police have authorised a pro-Israel demonstration, carrying a Hamas, Hizbollah, Palestinian or other similar flag would presumably be deemed an act of provocation in the same way. Wouldn’t it?

Trundlemaster

well said, agree completely

Presumably it’s a two-way street. If the police have authorised a pro-Israel demonstration, carrying a Hamas, Hizbollah, Palestinian or other similar flag would presumably be deemed an act of provocation in the same way. Wouldn’t it?

I saw people with Paleostinian flags being arrested for provoking the pro-Israel people

Paxman last night interviewing a PA spokesman on Newsnight (paraphrased): ‘Do you think that Hamas have assumed the status of moral authority for the Palestinian people?’

‘Moral Authority!’ He really didn’t think that one through did he?

FC, FYI

A note on crowded places

The canard that Gaza is the most crowded place on earth continues to circulate.

The UK politician George Galloway wrote in The Glasgow Record last month that the Gaza Strip is “the most densely populated piece of earth on the planet.” Galloway wrote that 1.5 million Palestinians live there.

Daoud Kuttab, a Palestinian journalist currently teaching at Princeton, wrote March 26 that Gaza is “one of the most densely populated places on earth, with 3,823 people per square kilometre.” Kuttab’s figure is in line with recent Gaza population estimates of 1.4 million.

If Galloway’s estimate of 1.5 million Gaza population is correct, this is almost 4,200 people per square kilometer. The Central Intelligence Agency projects that the Gaza population will reach 1,537,269 in July. This would bring the density to 4,270 people per square kilometer.

Both Singapore and Hong Kong have more than 6,000 people per square kilometer. Tel Aviv has more than 7,000 people per square kilometer. If you count the suburbs of Tel Aviv, the metropolitan area with its population of 2.3 million has a density of more than 5,000 people per square kilometer, which is considerably more crowded than the Gaza Strip as reckoned by Galloway or Kuttab or the CIA.

Selected estimates of population density:

Mumbai
27,209 people/sq km
http://www.mcgm.gov.in/

Kolkata
24,000 people/sq km
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata

Tel Aviv
7,445 people/sq km
(385,000 people, 51.8 sq km)

Hong Kong
6,352 people/sq km
http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/population.pdf

Singapore
6,252 people/sq km
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/keyind.html

London
5,100 people/sq km

Tel Aviv metro area including suburbs
5,050 people/sq km
(2.3 million people, 453 sq km)

Moscow
4,900 people/sq km

Tokyo/Yokahama
4,750 people/sq km

Warsaw
4,300 people/sq km

Gaza Strip per CIA projection
4,270 people/sq km
(1,537,269 population July 2008, 360 sq km)

Gaza Strip per George Galloway
4,167 people/sq km
(1.5 million people, 360 sq km)

Gaza Strip per Daoud Kuttab
3,822 people/sq km

The numbers for London, Tel Aviv metro area, Moscow, Tokyo/Yokohama and Warsaw are from the City Mayors site.
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

The Battle of Kensington from the Evening Standard’s This is London site.

Again, the bullshit “500 people” figure

Well, David, that is one (dishonest) way to characterise it. Another way to characterise it is that one side is protesting against the actions that have killed over 650 people, whilst the other side is demonstrating in favour of the actions that have killed over 650 people. Just because the “pro-Israel” camp (who aren’t really pro-Israel, certainly not pro-peace for Israel) are middle class and smiling, doesn’t mean that they are standing up for something that is right. What they are standing up for is the right to murder Palestinians with impunity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/08/open-letter-gaza-gordon-brown-israel

Meanwhile the community elders are warning in Al Grauniad that if even more Islamist fascists attack the police in Kensington High Street, it should be blamed on Israel’s self-defence and the flying of Union Jacks in England.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/hating-israel-in-trafalgar-square/

Carol Gould on last Saturday’s event in Trafalgar Square

TheIrie – after day after day of your mendacity and intellectual cowardice, you are in no position to accuse anyone of dishonesty.

Please answer the question below:

“Tevya
7 January 2009, 2:10 pm

“TheIrie, you ignore any comment addressed to you which you can’t deal with. You are a dishonest correspondent.”

Indeed.

“Like what, j.r.? I adress every serious comment.”

TheIrie, you have been asked many times whether you think Hamas would ever reject its charter. The question is at the heart of any sensible analysis of why the current conflict is taking place, what should be done to stop it, and what can be done to bring peace to the region.

By ignoring the question, you are being dishonest with yourself.

For what it’s worth, I agree your comment that:

“I believe that stability is the root of peace. If Hamas stop firing for long enough, if Palestinian democracy is strengthened, not undermined, then they will eventually lose elections, and, I hope, a progressive government will evolve in their place. My strategy for Hamas, is not to support their goals, but to support any action they are prepared to take on the path to peace.”

Your answer to my question will clarify your views as to whether your if onlys will ever come to be, and indeed whether you think that Hamas will ever take any actions on the path of peace.

Peace will come, if they want it.”

Notice how TheIrie is engaging again in his whitewashing of Hamas deaths – he tried the same trick with Hezbollah a while back.

In 1945 he would have been complaining about the deaths of “tens of thousands of people” when SS Divisions were rightfully getting the fuck blown out of them by Allied airpower.

He really is utter scum.

Middle class, professional, smiling or not, Irie, they were still law abiding. Just as British ‘Zionists’ have usually been: demonstrating their support and sympathy for Israel against the likes of George Galloway who are openly dedicated to the dissolution of the Jewish state, or worse, and against many who openly encourage the (illegal) storming of the Israeli embassy (just check out the comments boxes):

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/israeli-consulate-occupied.html

“Rival protesters hurled abuse at each other as police tried to keep them apart. A group of pro-Palestine protesters tried to force their way through to the pro-Israel rally. The trouble came when police forced anti-Israeli demonstrators to disperse. Organiser of the pro-Israel rally, Matt Freelander, 28, said: “It is good for everyone to see a peaceful demonstration from people on our side. We want a two-state solution and peace for both Israel and the Palestinians.”

Pro-Palestinian protesters accused police of “heavy-handed” tactics. Protest organiser Mohamad Sawalha, of the British Muslim Initiative, added: “It was a mistake to allow the other rally at the same time. It was provocative.” ”

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23614470-details/The+battle+of+Kensington/article.do

Permitting a counter demonstration was surely only ‘provocative’ if the pro-Palestinian demonstrators were intending to be violent, or were incapable of resisting the urge to assault ‘Zionists’ i.e. were psychopathic.

TheIrie = Hamas apologist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1108971/Rival-protesters-clash-police-Gaza-demonstration-descends-violence.html

Mail online

Uptight,

I don’t doubt you were afraid or that some pro-Palestinian demonstrators were genuinely frightening, but epithets like

“Middle Eastern thugs in keffiyehs”

is genuinely racist, I think, and should be repented of.

“Notice how TheIrie is engaging again in his whitewashing of Hamas deaths” Morgoth, tell me about the “Hamas deaths” in this conflict. How many have there been? Maybe 10? Less?

bernard, thanks fior the link. An excerpt from the community elders’ letter in the Grauniad:

We wholeheartedly support your calls for an immediate and permanent ceasefire that must include the immediate cessation of Israeli aerial and ground assaults, an end to all rocket attacks into Israel and a total lift of the siege of Gaza.

Note the curious phrase an end to all rocket attacks into Israel. So the community elders are in full agreement with their friends and allies, Comrades Olmert, Barak and Livni, who have been insistently repeating that this is their condition for agreeing to a cease-fire, an offer that Hamas has repeatedly rejected. And still does.

There he goes again, promulgating Hamas propaganda faithfully.

TheIrie – “tell me about the “Hamas deaths” in this conflict. How many have there been? Maybe 10? Less?”

Fool! Over 700 people are dead because of this conflict as a result of Hamas’ actions and beliefs

But characters like Roobin, with the endorsement of characters like Richard Seymour, are still intending to storm the Israeli embassy on saturday (I cannot copy and paste the comments, because my mac mouse coupled with a hired laptop won’t let me), but here is Seymour’s Place webpage, again:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/

Saturday: the Jewish sabbath, when most pro-Israel demonstrators cannot attend.

One Steve Brown actually exulted in the notion of the disgruntled and unhappy making the Jewish embassy the focus of their disaffection: truly the socialism of fools.

Richard Seymour would shit in his pants before confronting an Israeli guy fresh from the army. I would really love to see that.

How many people have Hamas actually killed in the 12 days or so that this conflict has been going. I don’t accept the line that everyone the IDF kills is Hamas’s fault, because I’m not a brain dead apologist for the IDF.

Morgoth – remind us all what you think the population of Gaza should do again? Isn’t ethnic cleansing your preferred solution?

What they are standing up for is the right to murder Palestinians with impunity.

So yesterday it was ‘Irie the honest borker’, and today it is accuse every last person on the pro-Israel protest of desiring the murder of Palestinian men, women and children.

Irie, what name am I supposed to call you in response?

‘broker’, even.

The Irie said:”How many people have Hamas actually killed in the 12 days or so that this conflict has been going. I don’t accept the line that everyone the IDF kills is Hamas’s fault, because I’m not a brain dead apologist for the IDF.”

The question you should be asking is how many civilians have Hamas put in harms way? The answer is all of them. I dont’ accept the line that its all the IDFs fault but then I’m not a brain dead supporter of Hamas like Galloway et al.

I am against pro-Israeli demos for the very reason that they invite this sort of danger.

I don’t agree, stand up and be counted. If Israeli soldiers can put their lives on the line and we can’t even show public support for them and Israel we are giving in to Islamofacist intimidation. What kind of message would that be sending?

Fabian,

just to check: I didn’t work with you at Hatzrot Yasaf near Nahariya in 2000?

How many people have Hamas actually killed in the 12 days or so that this conflict has been going.

Ever heard of the crime of “attempted murder”, TheIrie?

“in the 12 days” – interesting choice of words, TheIrie? Given how others have exposed your manipulating of dates and times to put a positive spin on Hamas, we can only conclude you’re doing it again.

What does “swivel eyed” mean, by the way?

Morgoth – remind us all what you think the population of Gaza should do again? Isn’t ethnic cleansing your preferred solution?

You weren’t complaining when the Israelis forcibly removed, i.e. ethnically cleansed, all the Jews from Gaza in 2005, were you?

Stringerbell, definitely not this.

Stringerbell said:”What does “swivel eyed” mean, by the way?”

I’ve always used it to mean some sort of obsessive unreasonable loon especially in a political context.

How dare Zionists even speak to Christians without trying to convert them to Judaism/Athiesm!!

They could just take the bus…

I blame the Zionists who control the Press:

Arab Media Watch expresses concern at the frequent use by the British press of Israeli Ambassador Ron Prosor, compared with the near-total absence of his Palestinian counterpart Manuel Hassassian, despite the fact that the latter took up his position more than a year prior to the former.

Since Prosor became ambassador at the end of 2007, and until the end of 2008, there have been 40 items (news articles, commentaries, editorials and letters) either by him, quoting him or mentioning him. The breakdown by newspaper is as follows:

Newspaper No. of % of
Items Items

Daily Telegraph 16 40
The Times 6 15
The Guardian 5 12.5
The Independent 5 12.5
Daily Mail 3 7.5
The Sun 1 2.5
Daily Mirror 1 2.5
Daily Star 1 2.5
News of the World 1 2.5
The Observer 1 2.5

In contrast, Hassassian has only been mentioned in the Guardian, quoted in two articles by Middle East editor Ian Black. In total, that is 20 times fewer items than Prosor, over double the period of time.

“For the sake of balance, this should be rectified, particularly given the importance of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the frequency with which it is reported, and the regular use of Prosor,” says AMW chairman Sharif Hikmat Nashashibi.

“Our findings call into question Prosor’s complaint in the Telegraph that ‘coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is routinely tainted with bias’ against his country. Prosor’s views are clearly and overwhelmingly more prevalent than his Palestinian counterpart.”

Nashashibi added: “Hassassian is an able and eloquent spokesman who is readily available to the media. Making use of him would contribute to a sense of even-handedness in British press coverage, which would benefit readers.”

AMW expresses particular concern over the Telegraph, not just because of the frequent platform it provides Prosor, but because AMW has been writing to the newspaper since July 2008 requesting an explanation for the total absence of Hassassian in its pages. We have yet to receive a reply, though we have been promised one three times.

A Jewish blogger recently emailed AMW wondering “whether the Telegraph works for Prosor, or whether he works for the newspaper.”

Prosor authored six commentaries:

- three in the Telegraph
- two in the Guardian
- one in the Sun

A further four commentaries quoted him:

- three in the Telegraph (two by Con Coughlin, one by David Hughes)
- one in the Times (Hugo Rifkind)

Prosor was quoted in 18 news articles:

- six in the Telegraph (including by Martin Beckford, Tim Butcher, Duncan Gardham and Con Coughlin)
- four in the Times (James Hider and Richard Beeston)
- three in the Independent (two by Donald Macintyre, one by Ian Johnston)
- one each in the Mail (Liz Thomas), Guardian (Toni O’Loughlin), Daily Mirror (Andrew Gregory), Daily Star (anonymous) and Observer (David Hills)

He was mentioned in a further 10 news articles:

- two each in the Telegraph (Charlotte Bailey and Tom Peterkin), Mail (Alex Brummer and anonymous), Guardian (Rory McCarthy and Toni O’Loughlin) and Independent (Ian Herbert, Andy McSmith and Mark Hughes)
- once each in the Times (Ruth Gledhill) and News of the World (anonymous)

The Telegraph also published a letter by Prosor, and an editorial mentioning him.

The usual stuff. HP highlights the most extreme stuff, calling the entire demonstration “pro-Hamas”, and not even recognising the existence of folk opposed to the war, not because they are pro-Hamas, but because they are concerned for civilian life, they are concerned it will ultimately fail (actually increase extremism), and many other issues.

Benji, anybody concerned with civilian life, now and in the future, will certainly want Israel to inflict as much damage as it can on Hamas.

“Fabian,
just to check: I didn’t work with you at Hatzrot Yasaf near Nahariya in 2000?”

No. I wasn’t in Israel in the year 2000 at all.

Mark said:”Benji, anybody concerned with civilian life, now and in the future, will certainly want Israel to inflict as much damage as it can on Hamas.”

That is the position I find myself in reluctantly. Although I grieve for the innocent lives that have been lost the positions for the Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere will only improve if the cancer of Hamas are removed.

“The usual stuff. HP highlights the most extreme stuff, calling the entire demonstration “pro-Hamas”, and not even recognising the existence of folk opposed to the war, not because they are pro-Hamas”

I don’t speak for HP but I do recognize the “existence of folk opposed to the war, not because they are pro-Hamas”. They will be collateral damage if the thugs decide to do a pogrom on the Israeli embassy.

Frankly I can’t be bothered to wade through any more of this crap. But as usual The Irie has spoken for the sane readers of this blog.

The usual stuff. That tedious gasbag Mackie starts a comment with “The usual stuff”, then bores everyone stupid for the billionth time with his pissy whining.

Benjamin,

If any of the pro-terrorist protesters were concerned with civilian life, they wouldn’t be supporting Hamas, who announced to the world that they love death more than we love life!

Their actions are true to their words, and they use mostly children, as well as other civilians as human shields and cannon fodder.

I’d imagine that the police have allowed this demonstration in order to keep the little fu**kers all in one place. He he, so that they know where they are, and that hopefully cameras can click away at their hearts desire and get intell on this group.

Ever heard the saying, “enemy’s enemy is my friend”; not exactly a true friend that you can trust, but you can trust them to oppose the same people you do. And that’s about as far as it goes.

The coalition between the leftists and certain groups, (you know who you are), is one the leftists will come to regret. Socialism and fanatical religion, never mixes well. Even Heston Blumenthal couldn’t get that recipe to float.

It is only “pro Hamas” because

1. This is a war on Hamas, which Hamas can stop any time it chooses to renounce murdering Israeli civilians

2. It was organised by Mohammed Sawalha, who is a senior Hamas member.

If you go on a demo in defence of Hamas, organised by Hamas, you’re a Hamas supporter.

probably mentioned before but amazing how the police faced away from the pro israel/gaza peace demo and had to face the raging hamas loving rally.btw shouldn’t g.g and his bunch of been moved on instead of allowing to continue,even though thay should of finished at 7???????

I’ll accept that it’s status as the most densely populated area is contestable. It is most certainly _one_ of the most densely populated areas of the earth.

And just what is your point?

That fact that Palestinian/islamo misogyny condemns Palestinian women to a life with 12 or 13 children has nothing to do with Israel, or America or The West.

The Gaza overcrowding is the result of poor choices, bad leadership and is entirely the fault of the Palestinians living there.

What the fuck…if you can’t feed ‘em, don’t breed ‘em.

Do leftists think Palestinians are completely, utterly blameless when it comes to every last aspect of their living conditions, or someting?

golda

“shouldn’t g.g and his bunch of been moved on instead of allowing to continue,even though thay should of finished at 7???????”

Of course. The police have been incredibly indulgent of these fascist thugs, no doubt in the name of ‘community cohesion’ (pace Open Letter in Guardian today, linked to above).

To the Police in Ken High Street, if you are reading this: Thanks for looking after us last night, you all deserve medals.

“It is most certainly _one_ of the most densely populated areas of the earth.”

Tel Aviv is even more populated than Gaza, but Telavivians don’t think that their duty is to wear a suicide belt. Only to steal your place in the queue.

I was at the demo last night & would estimate that there were at least 2,000 of us. I wanted to express my support for the people of Israel. This was a demonstration against Hamas terror and for peace for the people of Israel AND Gaza.
I’m not a particularly brave person, but I travelled to & from this event alone on the tube, and did not feel threatened, but then I was not wearing or carrying anything to indicate that I was either going to a demo or supporting Israel.
I just refuse to let terrorist supporters dictate whether I can or cannot go to a legimitate demonstration in London.
I had to walk past the anti-Israel protestors, but just ignored them.
The only violence I saw was several policemen struggling with a man – they were coming straight towards me on the pavement outside the Royal Garden Hotel as I was returning to High St Ken tube, at around 8.50 pm & I just walked past as quickly as possible.
I’ll be there on Sunday!

Well, I guess its too much to expect HP to respresent the world and its people as it is: complex, contradicted, not easy, crooked timber. Everything is just reduced to playground simplicities: pro-Israel, pro-Hamas.

I am not asking you to agree with the anti-war demonstrators; I am just asking you to recognise that people have different motivations for opposing the war: a belief that it will make things worse; concern for civilian life; pacifism, to some degree, and anti-violence – that is opposing both rocket attacks, and the Israeli response; a different view of the history of the conflict.

You may disagree with all of those, fair dinkums. But to suggest its simply about being pro-Hamas is an absurd simplification.

Aaah, you’re claiming the moral high ground because you were demonstrating in favour of Israel’s war?

That’s some moral high ground. You’re really no better than those claiming kinship with the murderous death cult of Hamas.

“Only psychotics would support Hamas.”

I’m sure there are scores of ‘psychotics’ in Gaza right now. After all, they are facing a daily bombardment from the IDF. If you faced similar experiences to the residents of Gaza, i’m sure you would not write what you did.

“What the fuck…if you can’t feed ‘em, don’t breed ‘em.”

” Gaza overcrowding is the result of poor choices, bad leadership and is entirely the fault of the Palestinians living there.”

Hmmm.Or possibly the Likudniks nicking their land?

Where have i heard that before?

BTW, what exactly was Israel’s role in supporting Hamas in the early days as a counter to the PLO? Blow back.

uptight wrote 8 January 2009, 11:34 am

“so David, under the circumstances the police presence was a total waste of tax payers money.

All we needed were a row of Gharkhad trees”

That is really funny. Some comedian should plant rows of Gharkad trees along the Israel-Gaze border.

Does the demo on Sunday go to the Israeli Embassy, or does it just stay in Trafalgar Square?

If a demonstration were organised by – let us say – Amnesty, would it be right to call it an Amnesty demonstration?

I don’t expect you to answer this question, of course.

Anyway, what are the so-called “pro-Israel” demonstrators calling for? What, exactly, is their message?

Fight Hamas-Islamist terror. The economic and political route failed to bing Hamas to the table as did all the efforts by the Arab League. The Israelis have ended the ’seige’ in the only way left to them.

You seem to have forgotten that Arafat’s excuse for the Second Intifada, as opposed to accepting Camp David 2000 deal and getting on with things, was his fear of these very same people assassinating him as a ‘collaborator’?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7817926.stm

BTW, what exactly was Israel’s role in supporting Hamas in the early days as a counter to the PLO? Blow back.

Its role, exactly, was not shooting Hamas/MB leaders or imprisoning them.

As Hamas/MB were not murdering Jews, but were rather busying themselves setting up the “charitable” network, which now forms their powerbase, Israel showed understandable, but mistaken restraint.

It is now appreciated, more clearly, that even quietist Islamist movements very quickly go into jihadist mode.

Let’s hope we don’t make the same mistake in Britain.

Message to the Useful Idiots helping our new Jihadist ‘Englishmen’ (ahhh…. the fruits of multiculturalism!!):

Clearly you delight in your freedom of speech and right to publicly protest in this country. The only reason you are free to do so is because our parents and grandparents confronted Hitler’s tyranny 70 years ago.

People like you would clearly have been demonstrating against Churchill in the 1940’s, for his bombing of Dresden (done, incidentally, for a lot less than the 6,000 rocket attacks on little Israel).

You should consider yourself very fortunate that your useful idiot forbears in WW2 did not prevail, otherwise your placards last night might well have been written in German (if, that is, you had been allowed out to demo after Gestapo curfew).

Zalmi said:”Clearly you delight in your freedom of speech and right to publicly protest in this country. The only reason you are free to do so is because our parents and grandparents confronted Hitler’s tyranny 70 years ago. ”

Spot on.

This was a demonstration against Hamas terror and for peace for the people of Israel AND Gaza.

This is an almost comically absurd position. You demonstrate against Hamas terror at precisely the time when Hamas are not going to stop the terror, because of the recent actions of Israel that you support.

Hamas are not refusing to stop because they have not proved capable of stopping their rocket attacks (they have), and capable of moving their stances (they have), and not because Hamas has refused to negotiate with Israel (it has negotiated), but because Israel has invaded Gaza and is destroying infrastructure and killing women and children.

If a territory is actually physically invaded, and infrastructure and civilians killed, you can’t really expect the government (whatever your views on it) to invite the invading army in with cups of tea. The rockets then take an additional meaning. They become symbols of immediate resistance to that invasion, and Hamas, and a couple of other smaller groups, are seen as the only resistance force.

The demo is not a serious one against Hamas terror, because why not organise and earlier one, at time where such a demo would have actually meant something? This is simply a demo in favour of the military actions of the Israeli govt. And if you know one iota about the history of this conflict, and its complexity, you would know that this military action is about much more than Hamas rockets. To suggest that its simply about rockets is truly laughable.

Think of 100,000 descending on one building. If they decide to go inside the police will need extra forces. There are only, roughly 30,000 officers in London.

Someone’s not making allowances for this. Or the Army.

My thoughts exactly, Benji.

Benji

If a demonstration were organised by – let us say – Amnesty, would it be right to call it an Amnesty demonstration?

I don’t expect you to answer this question, of course.

As Hamas/MB were not murdering Jews, but were rather busying themselves setting up the “charitable” network, which now forms their powerbase, Israel showed understandable, but mistaken restraint.

That view of events is truly naive. I simply don’t believe Netanyahu and co think like at all. That is simply not their mindset. Its an absurdly simplistic view of Netanyahu and Likud.

The Hamas Covenant is dated 1988. That was the date on which Hamas started to promise genocide to Jews.

The first Hamas suicide attacks took place in 1994.

The Muslim Brotherhood is operating peacefully in this country. However, we’ve seen how the MB ultimately turns into a terrorist organisation.

Should we be violently suppressing the BMI, FOSIS and the MAB.

Or should we wait until they actually carry out acts of terrorism against us.

Instead of David T’s fairy tale about the incredibly naive Netanyahu and Likud (they are not), how about this:

“According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), “The Islamic associations as well as the [Islamic university — founded in 1978 in Gaza] had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority” in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. “They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad.”

By the end of 1992, there were 600 mosques in Gaza. Hamas attracted members through preaching and charitable work before spreading its influence into trade unions, universities, bazaars, professional organizations and local government political races beginning in December 2004. “Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks), the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression”, according to L’Humanité. Indeed Israel supported and encouraged Hamas’ early growth in an effort to undermine the secular Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat.” Wikipedia.

Ahem

The Hamas Covenant is dated 1988. That was the date on which Hamas started to promise genocide to Jews.

The first Hamas suicide attacks took place in 1994.

The Muslim Brotherhood is operating peacefully in this country. However, we’ve seen how the MB ultimately turns into a terrorist organisation.

Should we be violently suppressing the BMI, FOSIS and the MAB.

Or should we wait until they actually carry out acts of terrorism against us.

Benjamin in caviar-left mode:

1) Let’s go to symbioogy:
“The rockets then take an additional meaning. They become symbols of immediate resistance to that invasion, and Hamas, and a couple of other smaller groups, are seen as the only resistance force.”
Oh, god exists.

2) Intellectual arrogance:
“if you know one iota about the history of this conflict”

Benji, off course, is with him. Oh, what a beautiful thing to fly free in the pure heavens, far from the stupid ignoramus.

More to the point, FOSIS is regarded by the Government as a partner in some of its anti-extremism work.

DCI Lambert installed Hamas/MB in Finsbury Park Mosque. Ken Livingstone supported this move. The Government is being urged to partner with the MB by Crooke, Lambert, and various Islamist groups linked to the MB and Jamaat.

Now, I think that’s mistaken. Very mistaken. Because I think we know by now that Islamists are Jihadists at rest.

Did Israel know that Hamas/MB would become a terrorist organisation in the 1970s? Would you?

If you think that Israel is to “blame” for not suppressing Hamas before it started to murder Jews, then we better get lively and start rounding up the BMI/MAB/FOSIS lot pretty sharpish.

Haha, cross posted by “Mad” Melanie Phillips. What an honour.

[quote]there’s now a positively medieval character to this frenzied hatred, which I have watched building up now for years in Britain as a direct result of two linked phenomena – the appeasement of militant Islamism and the toleration of its intimidatory and thuggish public displays; and the wicked lies, distortions and blood libels about Israel disseminated by broadcast and print media week in, week out. What we are witnessing in these repeated hate-fests, including the onslaught outside the Israel embassy, is the jihad erupting on the streets of London – aided and abetted by a fifth column of non-Muslim leftists and Jew-haters.[/quote]

I’d be proud to have my site mentioned by such a level headed person

Er Benji

If a demonstration were organised by – let us say – Amnesty, would it be right to call it an Amnesty demonstration?

I don’t expect you to answer this question, of course.

David – why do you vehemently insist on ignoring reality? By the apparent rationale laid out above, one could construct a case that since the Irgun carried out acts of terrorism against the British, it is only a matter of time before other self identifying zionists become violent terrorists, so we should ask ourselves whether the British state should violently crack down on Zionists. Of course, the reason this is completely ridiculous is that Zionist groups have no reason to violently attack the British anymore. In the same manner, it’s not inevitable that the MB will become violent – it’s about events and material causes. If you selectively ignore the role of the occupation in causing extremism, you will never get it right, and you will continue to make the same mistakes – no matter how hard you “violently supress[] the BMI, FOSIS and the MAB” – if that indeed was a serious proposal.

gosh all those brown people wearing palestinian arab type clothes. how terrible. enjoyed as well the reliance on police reports about knives and bricks. I saw someone being arrested last week for being in possession of a dangerous key ring. As it happens all that happened were a few eggs were thrown. A bit of a contrast to this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4162193/Gaza-medics-describe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html

I’m a little confused. I realise that TheIrie is a fundamentally dishonest interlocutor but I’d always thought him consistent in his dishonesty, at least.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why TheIrie would object to being described as “pro-Hamas”?

There have been countless threads where HArry’s Place has highlighted Hamas’ clerical fascism ideology, its racist indocrination of Palestinian children through State media, and it’s miserable failings when given the opportunity to represent their people as elected Government officials.

In every single one of these threads, TheIrie has openly and unreservedly given his full support to Hamas and insisted that Hamas is the true and legitimate representatives of and for the Palestinian people.

Harry’s Place’s “position” is that Hamas is a clerical fascist ideological movement which is not representative of the majority of the Palestinian people and will bring nothing but misery and destruction on both Palestinian and Israeli hopes for peace.

TheIrie’s postion was that Harry’s Place was smearing Hamas with lies and distortions. ANd that he supported HAmas as he supported the Palestinian people.

How can he not describe himself as “pro-Hamas”? In the context of what’s happening in Gaza?

Unless he’s nothing more than a dishonest coward who wants to be able to support Palestinian victims with the full force of his moral outrage, without being burdened by uncomfortable reflections on his support for Palestinian aggressors…

FC @ 11:04am

“I’m not sure if SPGB stands for Socialist Party of Great Britain (I doubt it somehow- here of all places).”

It does actually. I am a member of the party and use the initials on my handle because there is someone who postsat HP under the name “gray”. Only polite, methinks.

As for posting comments on HP….Well, I could just sit and chat with those who are like-minded, but there’s no point in that! And of course, HP has a pretty anti-socialist slant to it, so why not defend the socialist case?

so why not defend the socialist case?

Which you’ve never done. Despite your excellent taste in music old bean, no one can get a peep out of you over what your definition of socialism actually is, apart from “unimaginable and unobtainable”.

I’ve got to agree with TheIrie’s broader Islamists won’t necessarily become militants point.

TheIrie

My only question is: was Israel responsible for Hamas’ rise to power, because they did not suppress them in the 1970s or early to mid 1980s, before they started to engage in jihadism.

I ask this, because it is frequently insinuated that Hamas was ‘created’ by Israel, which has now turned on them.

eg:

BTW, what exactly was Israel’s role in supporting Hamas in the early days as a counter to the PLO? Blow back.

If Israel should have suppressed Hamas in its early days, surely we should also be suppressing the MB groups in the UK?

But, in fact, democratic countries don’t do that, do they?

David T

My point is Israel actively encouraged Islamists so as divide the Palestinians and to weaken Fatah. Which some may say seems odd. After all Fatah were secular, were more moderate, and were amenable to working with the Israelis on a peaceful settlement.

But then, if you factor in that many in Likud believe in a Greater Israel, the logic becomes more apparent. Why would Netanyahu and co actually want a unified and moderate opponent that recognised Israel and was prepared to make compromises? That would imply reciprocation: Israel recognising Palestinian statehood. It suits some to have the Palestinians divided, with the extremists at least in a reasonably strong position.

Don’t bother johng, it’s all lies and distortions. Those kids were asked to play dead and were returned to their madrassas and terror training camps after the cameras had gone. Or they were killed by Hamas deliberately for propaganda reasons.

In amongst the lies, there’s been real suffering:

“One of the rockets hit a nursing home were some 25 elderly residents were eating breakfast in a nearby dining hall, the Jerusalem Post reports.

At least two people were slightly wounded and a number of others were suffering from shock, Israeli officials said”

David T, from your comments above I take it you support this action against Gaza? This surprises me. Its all very well waging blogwars against the imaginary crimes of the ‘totalitarian left’ etc, but this seems a bit of a big step for such a small chap.

Islamists won’t necessarily become militants point.

Absolutely.

The only circumstances in which the MB have ever become jihadist, when they’ve been prevented from creating an Islamic State. If they’re allowed to create an Islamic State, they won’t become jihadist at all.

This being the Middle East, however, they’ve been suppressed in every country in which they’ve operated.

The one country in which they were tolerated, until the late 1980s, was Israel. It was their turn to terrorism that resulted in them being suppressed. It is this fact that is now used to claim that Israel “created” Hamas.

There are other countries in which Islamists have come to power. Iran, for example. In that country, it has maintained itself in power by disqualifying non-Islamists, or moderates from standing for election. Thousands of them, at each election.

My point is Israel actively encouraged Islamists so as divide the Palestinians and to weaken Fatah. Which some may say seems odd. After all Fatah were secular, were more moderate, and were amenable to working with the Israelis on a peaceful settlement.

You’re talking about the 1970s, right?

This is what Fatah was doing in the 1970s

28 November 1971: the assassination of Jordan’s prime minister, Wasfi Tel, in retaliation for the expulsion of the PLO from Jordan in 1970-71;
December 1971: attempted assassination of Zeid al Rifai, Jordan’s ambassador to London and former chief of the Jordanian royal court;
6 February 1972: sabotage of a West German electrical installation and gas plants in Ravenstein and Ommen in the Netherlands and in Hamburg in West Germany;
8 May, 1972: hijacking of a Belgian aircraft, Sabena Flight 572, flying from Vienna to Lod.
September and October 1972: dozens of letter bombs were sent from Amsterdam to Israeli diplomatic posts around the world, killing Israeli Agricultural Counselor Ami Shachori in Britain.[3]
1 March 1973: attack on the Saudi embassy in Khartoum, killing Cleo Noel, United States Chief of Mission to Sudan, George Curtis Moore, the US Deputy Chief of Mission to Sudan, and Guy Eid, the Belgian chargé d’affaires to Sudan
Main article: 1973 Khartoum diplomatic assassinations
5 August 1973: two Palestinian militants claiming affiliation with Black September open fire on a passenger lounge in an Athens airport, killing 5 and wounding 55. A Lufthansa Boeing 737 is hijacked in December to demand that the gunmen be freed from Greek custody.

And then Fatah was expelled into Lebanon:

Phalangist forces killed twenty-six Fatah trainees on a bus in April 1975. In 1976, an alliance of Christian militias with the backing of the Lebanese Army besieged the Tel al-Zaatar refugee camp.[10] The PLO and LNM retaliated by attacking the town of Damour, a Phalangist stronghold. Over 330 people were killed and many more wounded.[9] The Tel al-Zaatar camp fell to the Christians after a six-month siege, and a massacre followed in which thousands of Palestinians were killed.[11] Arafat and Abu Jihad blamed themselves for not successfully organizing a rescue effort.[9]

PLO cross-border raids against Israel grew somewhat during the late 1970s. One of the most severe – known as the Coastal Road Massacre – occurred on March 11, 1978. A force of nearly a dozen Fatah fighters landed their boats near a major coastal road connecting the city of Haifa with Tel Aviv-Yafo. There they hijacked a bus and sprayed gunfire inside and at passing vehicles, killing thirty-seven civilians.[12][13] In response, the IDF launched Operation Litani three days later, with the goal of taking control of Southern Lebanon up to the Litani River. The IDF achieved this goal, and Fatah withdrew to the north into Beirut.[14]

After Israel withdrew from Lebanon, Fatah forces resumed firing rockets into the Galilee region of Israel, prompting another invasion in 1982.

Hamas, by contrast, published its genocidal Covenant in 1988, and started to murder civilians in 1994.

Sorry, what was your point again?

Benji

Will you answer this question:

If a demonstration were organised by – let us say – Amnesty, would it be right to call it an Amnesty demonstration?

You’re talking about the 1970s, right?

No.

Morgoth

it’s easier to talk about Cradle of Filth or Napalm Death in blog comments boxes than provide a massive exposition of the socialist case. Anyway, I have given brief descriptions of what socialism is, what it isn’t, why I oppose Leninism and how socialism should be established.

Normally, this is in conjunction with a Mikey post (like his blog t’other day on Pol Pot). By the way you – what sort of comment was that in that thread when you said something like: fuck off with this SPGB stuff, to some poor soul who simply pointed out that some people don’t regard Pol Pot as a communist???

Yes you are.

You said:

“My point is Israel actively encouraged Islamists so as divide the Palestinians and to weaken Fatah. Which some may say seems odd. After all Fatah were secular, were more moderate, and were amenable to working with the Israelis on a peaceful settlement.”

When is Israel supposed to have been “encouraging” Hamas?

Certainly not at the point that it started to organise for a genocide of Jews.

Your earlier evidence of Israeli “support” for the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine consists of this:

“The Islamic associations as well as the [Islamic university — founded in 1978 in Gaza] had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority” in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. “They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad.” ”

So, from the 1970s, Israel allowed an apparently non-violent religious movement to receive money from abroad.

In 1988 it declared its desire to murder Jews. It started suicide bombings in 1994.

Prior to 1988, are you arguing that Israel should have suppressed the non-violent Hamas, but rewarded Fatah, which at that time was engaged in international terrorism on a grand scale?

I can see why you might say that. After all, we now know that Hamas was a terrorist organisation, and spent its “quiet” years building its capability and embedding itself in the Palestinian population.

This is, of course, what the Muslim Brotherhood is doing in this country. So what do you recommend. Shall we start rounding them up?

There is a grain of truth in Benji’s rambling David. The key context is the Iran-Contra affair and the US support of Afghan mujahaddin in the early / mid ’80s. Israel did give some backing to the MB as a counterweight to the PLO, and like the Americans, has experienced some blowback.

Although, this backing was not for the reasons suggested by benj – simply to undermine the effectiveness of and support for the PLO.

And Benji, as David T says, the PLO was very far from being a moderate organisation willing to talk peace at that time.

But before you answer that question, how about this?

If a demonstration were organised by – let us say – Amnesty, would it be right to call it an Amnesty demonstration?

I’m not sure an answer to your question is forthcoming David :-)

Not to worry. I will keep asking it.

Hurry up Benji!

David T

Amnesty does not call a demonstration in support of itself. They are around specific areas of concern. Those that attend may or may not be Amnesty members and will have varying political views but united in a concern about whatever the demo is about. You would not say an “Amnesty demo”, per se, I don’t think.

As regards this Hamas chappy, he may have been involved in its organisation, but that does not mean everyone attending it all were Hamas supporters; I have already explained all the different types of people that could have attended the anti-war rally. I think these sort of demos, especially about a controversial war, tend to draw out folk with differing concerns.

“David T, from your comments above I take it you support this action against Gaza? This surprises me. Its all very well waging blogwars against the imaginary crimes of the ‘totalitarian left’ etc, but this seems a bit of a big step for such a small chap.”

John, one could say the same of your support of Hamas’ goal of dissolving the Jewish state, hope for a third intifadah, a region-wide war against Israel (not to mention your or your friends’ storming the Israeli embassy even) etc, as well as, perhaps, denying Israel the right to military response to Gazan rockets?

Not to mention people dressing in Hamas, Hizbullah or Fedayeen battle dress, and throwing things.

Some of your associates at Seymour’s Place are clearly spoiling for a fight, I think:

The leader of the Jewish Students Union in France said that in this time of crisis, the Palestinian cause could act as a lightning rod for deeper social discontent.

I do hope he is right. Get out there on Saturday, get as many people to go with you. We may be in the middle of a lit fuse…
(The real) Steve Brown | Homepage | 7 Jan, 16:37 | #

Mike – OK you’re on, I bet there will be more people at the peace march on Saturday than on your pro-war march, even if you are going to have a “…shoot the civilian” stall.
(The real) Steve Brown | Homepage | 7 Jan, 16:40 | #

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/government-attempts-to-block-gaza-march.html

Most ironic was the chanting of ‘Peace, Palestine’ as though to the beat of war drums.

Your far left chums are spitting for blood. They may talk of ‘peace’, ‘justice’, a ’single state with security for all’ etc: any Israeli Jew who can hear the tenor rather than the content of their words would be mad to trust them.

Would any military action by the Jewish state satisfy you? Would you ever cease to demand of them moral criteria or perfection you demand from no other state or society?

You do not believe the Jewish state has any right to military action to defend or preserve its citizens because you do not believe it has any right to exist.

For you ‘a Zionist is a Zionist’ i.e. an enemy, absolute, not to be negotiated with, rather to be de-constructed, or destroyed.

Anti-Zionism is the encapsulation of your socialism of fools: I pity you, for this is clearly the high-light of your life so far. You claim to loathe HP but, the reality is, you are attracted to it, and in which consists i.e., it so happens, largely British, Israeli and other Jews expressing quite normative Jewish sympathy for Israel, like a moth to a flame.

You are a ‘Zionist’-stalker, and you return, again and again and again, because you are empty inside, and there is something here you need.

I’m sorry, Benjamin, but I personally would not attend any protest that was, for example organised by Kahane Chai, or the BNP, irrespective of the “cause”.

People may wish to protest Israel’s actions, but they should certainly think twice about attending demonstrations organised by supporters of Hamas, and at which it is almost certain that Hamas enthusiasts will be present and vocal.

BTW, I think Steve Brown’s remarks fit the criteria of classic antisemitic demagoguery: harnessing the disgruntled and resentful by making Jews, of one sort or another, in this case the national Jewish presence in Britain, the focus of their disaffection.

Truly the socialism of fools.

Is this a BNP Rally?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7561108.stm

This is not a demonstration organised by “supporters of Hamas”.

This is a demonstration organised by Mohammed Sawalha.

According to the BBC, Sawalha was said to have “master minded much of Hamas’ political and military strategy”

According to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the same organisation as Hamas, Sawalha is the “Manager of the Political Committee of the Muslim Brotherhood in the United Kingdom”

So, in summary, this demonstration was organised by a senior Hamas commander.

This was a Hamas demonstration.

Hmmm.Or possibly the Likudniks nicking their land?

Israel withdrew from Gaza several years ago. Any problems having to do with overcrowding are due to the poor choices Palestinians have been making over the past 40 years.

And when one examines images shot in Gaza, one wonders why so many individuals appearing in videos could be so overweight, seeings the place is described as a humanitarian disaster.

Some ’starving’ Gazans are so overweight they waddle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7766509.stm

Sickened. Did Hassan Nasrallah really say “To sacrifice one’s soul ” as this is an interesting theological point from a Jewish, Muslim or Christian perspective. How does sacrfice one’s soul ? Surely one can only sacrifice one’s soul by going against God wishes? When Hassan Nasrallah said ” We are prepared to sacrifice our children ….” One can only sacrifice oneself. To sacrifice someone else is murder.

“This is not a demonstration organised by “supporters of Hamas”.

This is a demonstration organised by Mohammed Sawalha.”

Forgive me David, you are right.

I should have been clearer.

By the way you – what sort of comment was that in that thread when you said something like: fuck off with this SPGB stuff, to some poor soul who simply pointed out that some people don’t regard Pol Pot as a communist???

Yes, it was a well-meaning taunt in your general direction. I was pleasantly surprised by your self-restraint on what you normally perceive as terminological and cladistic inexactitude to be corrected forthwith.

Maybe you’ve gotten like me and decided that you don’t need to jump in on *every* mention of your ideological biete-noir? After all, most folks know our positions anyway.

Charlie @ 4.05pm. Absolutely spot on C.

However as we repeatedly hear from these death loving fanatics, they don’t care, their morals are not like everybody elses. They can do and kill as they like and God will sanction it.

They are generally known as psychopaths. There are a lot of them out there, prison, on the tube, some even run countries.

Well, read the BBC article, but the moment it mentioned John Ging, an open propagandist for Palestinians, I became somewhat skepticle.

The father cited in the article has six children and has been unemployed since 2000 because he can no longer enter Israel due to security risks.

Those risks are the fault of whom, and the result of what, exactly?

And how many of those 6 children were born AFTER 2000, after he’d lost his job because of suicide bombings and such?

One thing that’s so revolting about people like TheIrie or John Game is their shameless glee over Israel’s attack on Hamas – and the overwhelming sense of vindication and moral superiority they adopt in every comment they make.

Never will they acknowledge that this site warned that Hamas was leading Gaza and the palestinians people in it towards an inevitable conflict. Never will they acknowledge that they were cheerleaders for Hamas as the rockets rained down on Sderot.

They got the war and PR boost they wanted. Maybe now their thirst for palestinian blood will be sated…

David T, from your comments above I take it you support this action against Gaza?

I’d be surprised if that was the case. I assume that DavidT, like myself and most interventionist leftists, firmly rejects Hamas’ blood-drenched coup against Gaza’s elected President – and is horrified that Hamas would hold the palestinian population of Gaza as hostages and human shields while they provoke a war with Israel.

Clearly this conflict is not between Israel and Palestine. There are no rockets coming from the West Bank. This conflict is not between Israel and Gaza – or Israel would simply re-occupy.

THis war is between Israel and Hamas. It’s a conflict made inevitable partly because people like you sold out the palestinian people of Gaza to Hamas because it was convenient – even though you knew that Hamas would fire rockets into Israel until this happened. We all knew after Hamas, given elected governing responsibility, wouldn’t even change their Charter to remove the bits about a war against all Jews and

You wanted it to happen.

This surprises me. Its all very well waging blogwars against the imaginary crimes of the ‘totalitarian left’ etc, but this seems a bit of a big step for such a small chap.

I attended the Pro-Israel Rally last night and as I got there 45 minutes early I decided to do a quick undercover Recce of the
Anti-Israel Demo to check out the size of Their demonstration & to pick up as much of Their Propaganda material as possible for Jewish Community Intelligence .

Having made damn sure that I had remembered to take any Jewish/Israeli badges off & that My Israeli Flag was well & truely located deep inside a zipped-up pocket ( I may be reckless , even stupid , but I’m not Suicidal ) I entered Their barried pen .

As I entered I was asked by a Police Officer if I was there for the demonstation – I muttered ” yes,cheers ! ” – He replied ” thats nice ” in a weary , semi-sarcastic fashion – this must be a good indication of the way that The Police are becoming completely fed up with the trouble-makers amongst the Pro-Palestinian crowd .

I collected as many leaflets from the 57 varieties of Trotskism/Stalinism that were using the event as an opportunity to sell papers & make recruits as I could . All the usual suspects were there , Revolutionary Communist Group advertising Their pickets of Marks & Spencer , Stop The War coalition , The Socialist Party ” Millys ” , I strolled past George Galloway . There was a group of
The Neturi Karta Ultra-Orthodox ( when They later left the Demonstration They drove away in a car screaming abuse at the Israel Demonstration in a really provocative fashion )

As I walked up to the front of the Palestinian Demonstration the first Pro-Israel Demonstrators began to arrive at the front of Their Barrier Pen . As soon as The Pro-Palestinians caught Their first glimpse of an Israeli Flag They went absolutely beserk – Their was an immediate surge towards the front led by groups of young Muslims , many with their faces covered with scarfes/Keffiyahs etc ,
I thought that there was going to be an immediate fight with The Police so I beat a hasty retreat ( I don’t mind dying for the cause – but I don’t want to die for The Palestinian cause !!! )

As I left I said to The Policeman that ” I said that I was going to a Demonstration – just not that Demonstration ” .

Well I may have been watching too many episodes of ” Spooks ” or watching too many films like ” Harry’s Game ” ( about British Intelligence infiltration of The IRA ) but 10 minutes amateur spying amongst the unholy alliance of Islamic Fundamentalism & The Totalitarian Left have given Me a good insight into the crazed extremism that exists in these thuggish Pro-Terrorist Demonstrations – I have seen the face of Hatred , and believe Me , it’s not pretty !

Ignore the last para – hit the wrong Button. Suffice to say that I’m against the Israeli action against Hamas simply because too many lives will be sacrificed by Hamas and I’m not sure there’s anything that can stop rockets coming into Israel.

What scares me is the number of people who declare that Israel’s actions can never be justified because there must be another way to deal with the problem.

They never offer this other solution – except to hint that occupation would be better than having to watch TV pictures of slaughtered palestinian women and children.

Morgoth

hehehe…something told me you were having a dig at me on that one.

One reason I don’t go into massive explanations is because fuller treatments of the SPGB case are obviously available at our website. (We’ve uploaded all manner of pamphlets and past articles from the Socialist Standard. I am one of the party members who has been scanning in articles et al; what I have scanned in hasn’t been available online before, such as a pamphlet from the 1920s called “Socialism”. I put some of that stuff on my own blog.)

I provide links in comments here should anyone be interested in reading those articles. I think it’s pure netiquette.

Being brief has its merits. I point out a real socialist opposition to some fools idea of demonstrating. Roobin and co. really should consider what their minority and unpopular fantasies of storming the Israeli Embassy in London might mean for the right to demonstrate in future. It’s indefensible and would surely mean a crack down on demonstrations.

Also, I have no problems with pro-Israeli demonstrators. Let them demonstrate in peace. Ideas and hearts are what you need and how you win.

Ian thanks for the info. Its interesting when two hate filled belief systems mutate into islamo-trotism with only the hatred of Jews……I mean Zionists to keep them warm.
I’m afraid the time may come when something smiler to the Jewish groups that formed to take on antisemitism pre and post war may have to come into being.

Gameboy, from what little skin I can see, they look on the pasty side. Maybe even privileged Anglos like yourself. Yet, you call them “brown people”.

Is the reason for the delayed viva all those meetings you’re attending with the Socialist White Party?

This was a Hamas demonstration.

Well, you keep saying that David; I am just saying that not everyone attending it were actually supporters of Hamas. I suppose you can keep calling it a Hamas demonstration if you want, on the basis that a Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas chap was involved in its organisation, but my point still stands.

I have just been reading about the plan of an Italian trade union to instigate a boycott of Jewish owned shops in Rome.

Boycotting the shops of law abiding Italian citizens simply because they are Jewish!!!

In anyone with responsibility in Europe going to do something to limit this poisonous atmosphere?

YossiUK

I understand your frustration.

Jews are not a race; it’s a religion. (There is no gene called a Jew gene, like there isn’t a Christian gene. And whilst I am at it, nobody has Jewish, Irish, British, whatever blood. People have O, OB, A, etc blood; our biology is determined by genetic information – that saying of “my blood is [insert group] is a ghastly echo of Nazi race theory.)

Neither are all Jews Zionists; Zionism is a political, and nationalist, ideology. We’ve seen many Jews on HP say Israel is not equal to Judaism.

Attacking Jews for what Israel does is reprehensible.

*Is

Communists and Jihadist give me the chilly-willies.

Mikey

I’m not surprised Mikey. Come the revolution I will ensure you are put against the Walls….to partake of your favourite ice-cream,

Israelis have a right to peaceful existence. Anyone who believes otherwise is a terrorist.

Some facts compiled by a Christian university professor:

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. It is a documented fact that the only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10 The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the roughly 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people’s lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. Hamas’s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank & Gaza lands, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority and continues to supply them with fuel, funds and food. However, the Arab authorities seek to keep their people suppressed and in a poverty-stricken-state, blaming Israel and the west whilst breeding and teaching hatred.

spgb, it is always embarrassing having to lecture those ignorant in European, North African and Asian Christian and Islamic history, but, here goes.

For most of European, North African, Asian and, perhaps above all, Palestinian Christian and Islamic history, not only have Jews been regarded as a national group, they have been regarded as a national group dispossessed of temple, city and land, as punishment for their rejection of Jesus and the prophets.

A consequence of this ancient cultural Christian and Islamic belief is that, in the 19th and 20th centuries, most European, North African and Asian Jews were not regarded so much as nationally ‘European’ or ‘Arab’, rather as nationally ‘Jewish’, and were either murdered or, effectively, driven out: before 1914 mostly to America, after 1914, mostly to Palestine or what became Israel.

Thus Israel is the second or the largest Jewish community in the world today.

By all means lecture Israeli Jews they may not be a national group. By all means tell them Jewish nationalism, or Zionism, the belief their is some kind of historical justice in a Jewish national restoration and return to the land of Israel, is illegitimate or racist, but, I doubt they will listen. Neither will any other Jew who has been discriminated against or persecuted on the grounds of his or her being an alien ethnicity or national.

Further, concerning Marx, did you ever read his account of the Jews of Jerusalem whom he wrote were outrageously abused by the Muslims of that city? It is one of the few sympathetic things he ever wrote about Jews, he having written a fair number of normatively antisemitic things in the course of his life.

Here it is:

“The Mussulmans, forming about a fourth part of the whole, and consisting of Turks, Arabs and Moors, are, of course, the masters in every respect, as they are in no way affected with the weakness of their Government at Constantinople. Nothing equals the misery and suffering of the Jews at Jerusalem, inhabiting the most filthy quarter of the town, called hareth-el-yahoud, this quarter of dirt between Mount Zion and Mount Moriah, where their synagogues are situated – the constant objects of Mussulman oppression and intolerance, insulted by the Greeks, persecuted by the Latins and living only upon the scanty alms transmitted by their European brethren. The Jews, however, are not natives, but from distant and different countries, and are only attracted to Jerusalem by the desire of inhabiting the Valley of Jehosophat and to die in the very places where their Redemptor is to be expected.

‘Attending their death,‘ says a French author, ‘they suffer and pray. Their regards turned to that mountain of Moriah, where once rose the temple of Solomon, and which they dare not approach, they shed tears on the misfortunes of Zion, and their dispersion over the world.‘”

zkharya: “Middle Eastern thugs in keffiyehs is genuinely racist, I think, and should be repented of.”

Well, they were Middle Eastern, they were wearing Keffiyeh masks and they were behaving like thugs.

But just to avoid racism, I’ll call them Klingon Ballerinas in Thongs.

Happy?

Also, spgb, in the USSR, every Jew had on his identity papers:

natsionalnost: evreiksi : ‘nationality’ or ‘ethnicity’: ‘Jewish’.

Tell the former Soviet Jews of Israel they cannot or are not entitled to be a national group: they’ll tell you where to put it.

“I am just saying that not everyone attending it were actually supporters of Hamas.”

Yeah, and somebody who goes on a BNP rally might not support the BNP.

They’d still be on a BNP rally.

“I assume that DavidT, like myself and most interventionist leftists, firmly rejects Hamas’ blood-drenched coup against Gaza’s elected President – and is horrified that Hamas would hold the palestinian population of Gaza as hostages and human shields while they provoke a war with Israel. ”

You assume correctly.

I suppose you can keep calling it a Hamas demonstration if you want,

If a demonstration is organised by The Knights of Colombus, it’s a Knights of Columbus demonstration, even if tons of non-Catholics are in attendance.

All of these anti-Israel demos, whether in London, Paris, Toronto or New York, bear the stamp of various Islamist organisations, be they Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood or their various front groups.

Is every week ‘White Cane Week’ in your neighbourhood, Benjamin?

zkhayra

your comment is a great example, in case “FC” wonders, of why I come to HP and debate; I expect to hear (and listen to) other points of view. And I will argue my corner too, in the belief others will have a sufficiently open mind to hear an argument they wouldn’t normally have heard.

The Jews, however, are not natives, but from distant and different countries, and are only attracted to Jerusalem

That phrase was the only reason you posted that.

You’re attempting to de-legitimise historical jewish claims to Jerusalem.

Marx is most certainly right about the horrible treament inflicted on the Jews by Muslims, but I’m quite sure he was ignorant of the origins of the Jews he encountered and probably had no idea that Jerusalem is nowhere mentioned in any of Islam’s core texts.

The city is, however, mentioned numerous times in both Christian and Jewish scripture, especially the latter

they have been regarded as a national group dispossessed of temple, city and land, as punishment for their rejection of Jesus and the prophets.

Honest Christians know that that is anti-semitic nonsense.

The Romans dealt harshly with those who rebelled and revolted, and the emperor Hadrian was hardly a Christian.

And no, The Romans and Hadrian weren’t the instruments of god.

zhkhayra

as noted before, the USSR was a state capitalist, one party dictatorship, opposed by me and my party fellows.

I bet Boris Gelfand would tell me where to stick it. I’m a chess player; ye olde Boris is one of the best Grandmasters around. He went to Israel when the USSR broke up. These days the Israeli chess team playing the USA sounds like Russia versus Russia. Apropos chess, former world champion Garry Kasparov changed his last name from Weinstein; one guess why. GK has always been happy being a Muscovite, though.

spbg:

I know how your ideology works. It is like this:

Step 1: Jews are not a nationality, they are a religion.
Step 2: Religions are the opiate of the masses.
Step 3: Why do you Jews continue to be Jews when we have patiently explained to you the nonsenses of your holy books?
Step 4: You say you don’t want the word Jew to appear in your passport? But you are a Jew!
Step 5: Are you sure you and your kind didn’t poison our Dear Leader?

Funny because true.

The other comic aspect is quite how closely Communist and other post-religious ideologies picked up on and reproduced the religious anti-semitic themes.

(Similarly, Christianity picked up on post AD 70 Roman hatred of Jews)

The mistake here, I’m afraid, was to rebel against the Roman Empire.

Yesterday, I commented on the weird Jihadi demos in British cities which have come about as a result of cretinous UK governments allowing untold thousands of jihadis AKA immigrants into the UK in recent years. I wish to withdraw my comment: instead of ‘weird’ please read ‘utterly fucking lunatic’. Anybody seen the video reports of the Ashura festival in New York? Ditto comment. When will this be coming to my local UK town, courtesy the jihadis? The English have very, very, very deep resouces of of tolerance, if that is the right word.

Well, I have to say spgb, you sound like a decent sort, so, apologies for any offence caused. I don’t have too much time to spare as I’m writing my PhD but I respect your love of chess, which bespeaks a mind of logic and power such as with which I am not, alas, possessed.

John P, I was quoting Marx: his views as to the history and relation of Jews to the land was conventionally culturally Christian: they had been dispossessed and dispersed and now some had or had been returning.

The Ashura festival is odd, but pretty much in the same league as dragging a cross around and then getting tied/nailed to it – popular in lots of countries.

Or wearing mortification garters. Popular with ex-government ministers.

Or cutting the end of your cock off. Popular with lots of perfectly nice people.

Actually, there are lots of things that one might do purely for “fun” which others might find a bit weird and even stomach turning.

Uptight,

how did you know they were ‘middle eastern’?

“The mistake here, I’m afraid, was to rebel against the Roman Empire.”

Your right it was, and the “empty ones” who refused to accept Rome’s rule and instead fight against it, come in for quite a bit of criticism in the Talmud.

“The mistake here, I’m afraid, was to rebel against the Roman Empire.”

Absolutely. The extra irony is that most Jews didn’t want to rebel, but were forced into it by the zealots: absolutists who frankly had a lot in common with Hamas

Fabian

step 5 – socialists don’t have a dear leader; working class emancipation is the work of the working class itself. Dear Leader (like Pol Pot, Leader Number One) is the preserve of the anti-socialist, Leninist loonies.

step 4 – the workers of the world have no country; we are one race, the human race, sharing an inhabitable planet, third from the Sun.

step 3 – If people still want to be religious in a socialist society, so be it. I am not against religion per se, only when a person is forced to comply to some sort of religious edict some others try to enforce, such as genital mutilation. That will not be allowed.

step 2 – the most misunderstood quote of Marx! (From Hegel’s Philosophy of Right.) Religion is the sigh of the oppressed in a heartless world. Read what Marx is arguing before the famous opiate quote.

step 1 – Jews live in New York, USA. (Yay American Fran Drescher and “The Nanny”. I enjoyed that sit-com.) My late Grandpa was an English Jew. Etc, etc. Jews are not a nationality. Jews are to be found all over the world.

Yossi – Yochanan ben Zachai?

I’m not sure which the good citizens of Blairgowrie want to see most – Ashura or the mock crucification. Let’s see what our highly paid County Organizer for Fucking Lunatic Multicultural Events has got in his diary of events for us. Remember, though, don’t let your stomach turn: that woud be insulting to our guests.

Correct Tevya, he had to smuggle himself out of Yerushalayim to meet with Vespasian because the Baryonei as the Talmud calls them, were not letting people out, and the destroyed Yerushalayim’s food stores to make the population suffer, and be left with no choice but to go out and fight the Romans.

(Gittin 56a)

“Jews are not a nationality. Jews are to be found all over the world.”

Yes. We are a people dispersed. Too bad it doesn’t fit with you analysis, but it is strange that you, that should devote more time to connect the theory of value with prices, are so concerned about what Jews are or aren’t.

My opinion, Marx was an antisemitic idiot and fucked socialism for good. It made every socialist an “expert” on Judaism. Shitty ideologies do these kinds of stuff.

Thanks Yossi – “because the Baryonei … were not letting people out” – see what I mean about Hamas?

Is it just YBZ in the talmud btw or is there also later commentary?

Yes Tevya, I do, there truly are parallels.

King Solomom was right “there is nothing new under the sun”

The Ashura festival is odd, but pretty much in the same league as dragging a cross around and then getting tied/nailed to it – popular in lots of countries.

Yes and no. A few adult Philipinos may nail themselves to crosses, but children are never allowed to participate.

And Catholic/Christian mothers would never would never slice up a three year old’s scalp with a butcher knife until blood ran down his face.

(Similarly, Christianity picked up on post AD 70 Roman hatred of Jews)

Mmm… that’s a bit TOO early. I’d say that christian anti-semitism only began to appear under Constantine and it didn’t become widespread until after Christianity had totally triumphed in the 6th century.

It was only after Christianity had gained a monopoly on political power that classic anti-semitism became possible.

You mean does Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai, feature in later commentaries?

Yes he does.

Sorry Yossi, thanks for the answers. I meant to ask whether later commentators had the same views about the zealots. What did Rabbi Akiva say? Also, do you see any parallels with the Bar Kochba revolt?

Oh I see,

Well yes the later commentaries view the zealots negatively. And all of them refer to them as the “empty ones”. The Bar Kochba episode is viewed slightly differently.

The persecution under Hadrian was very extreme, and of course Rabbi Akiva believed Bar Kochba to be the Moshiach.

After the event and the massive destruction and the slaughter of so many in places like Beitar, the view was taken, that because Bar Kochba was not Moshiach, the rebellion was doomed to failure as it violated the oath of not “rebelling against the nations, and was taken as a warning never to try and retake Eretz Yisroel by force.

Yossi, thank you

I guess another point with the zealots was that, unlike with Rabbi Akiva under Hadrian, under Nero (and before), there were no real issues, and peace was there for them if they had only wanted it

True Tevya,

According to the Sages, the only real justifications for war, are self defence in the event the enemy is trying to kill us.

Also if the enemy seeks to force us to abandon our religion, as in the case of Antiochos (of Chanukah fame), it is permitted to fight.

Sovereignty in itself, and even land, is not considered a valid reason to engage in war and put in danger the lives of the people.

Hence under some Emperors, we were allowed to practice our faith with very little interference, hence we were not allowed to wage war on them. The zealots sadly had other ideas, and the rest is history.

Thanks Yossi. Even though I’m Jewish, I’d only been familiar with the St Augustine just war idea. Jewish law sounds about right to me

There’s a lesson here for Hamas. Stop trying to kill us!

Your very welcome Tevya.

Yes Hamas should realise, put down your weapons, and live in peace. It’s better for them and their children, and better for us and ours.

SPGB,

“Jews are not a nationality.”

They were regarded so for most of Christian and Islamic history. That is why most Jews ended up in America or Israel. You do know the Arab world purged itself of most of its Arab Jews, mostly to Israel, because they were regarded as not so much nationally Arab as Jewish? Why don’t you lecture them too? I’m sure they’ll be very interested.

Odds are that is why you grandfather ended up in England, too.

But I am too busy to get involved in teaching ABC, all over again, for the umpteenth time.

I see Melanie Phillips, yet again, sources Harry’s Place for her articles on the subject. If ever further nails were needed to be bashed into the coffin of the “Centre-Left” canard that this place portrays, its its continued alliance with one of the most bigoted, right wing reactionary hacks in the country

Zkhayra

surely the Roman Empire was a very important factor “back in the day”

To the leftists reading this. CHoose your enemies and friends carefully.

Thinks out loud: I wonder how much it costs to hire a few hundred BNP to wear a cuple. I suppose as much beer as you can drink and endless doner kebabs. Let’s face it, they don’t exactly like the Hamas and Leftist Mob. (But they now like The Jews – apparently)

I don’t know why they haven’t thought of it themselves. Its a good opportunity for a bit of a ruck.

“Peaceful Israeli Demo Hijacked by BNP” wouldn’t exactly be the Israeli demonstrators fault. “BNP member saves Israeli marchers from beating” is surely good publicity for them.

Now, there is a sort of perverse parallel logic here. Many non-Jewish Spurs supporters will adorn the concept that they are The Yids and even wave an Israeli flag to provoke a reaction.

Now Come On You Spurs, the Yids might really need you!

You, charmer, Bob, I bet you said the same thing to Jenna Delich when she sourced articles endorsed on David Duke’s website for her “political activism”.

re: JEws are not a nationality:

And we should listen to you… why? because karl marx said so? His “love” of jews is well documented. so gimme a break.

What cheek, what chutzpah to tell Jews what they are and are not. It’s obvious jews are an ethnic group (albeit with a religious license requirement, nobody ever said the world was black and white), and as such, are as much a nationality as any other ethnic group that thinks they are. Denying self-determination for Jews on the basis that they aren’t a nationality (based on a subjective analysis, as you can’t possibly have an objective analysis on this type of thing) reeks of anti-semitism, whether purposeful or implied.

Vildechaye, there’s a continuity of sorts there from a Spuggie who believes his party owns the term socialism.

I am not a Karl Marx worshipper

Show me the Jew gene. You are echoing the shit Nazis used to send Jews to Auschwitz.

Yossi.
‘Nothing new under the sun…’ Not King Solomon, surely, but Ecclesiastes AKA The Preacher.

For a laugh, check this out:

http://dvarimagnivim.blogli.co.il/archives/223

spgb, national and ethnic identity resides in more than alleged genetic purity (and Jews worldwide do share a documented genetic heritage): anthropologists say the most important cultural marker is language. Arab nationalism doesn’t presuppose a unique ‘Arab’ gene. It’s principal criterion is a shared cultural Islamic, Arabic heritage.

Except Jews, unlike Christians, were not thought to count, except in extremely rigorous exceptional circumstances.

It was racist to discriminate against Jews on the basis of alleged genetic difference. It is racist to discriminate against half or more of their descendants, who now comprise the second or lagest Jewish community in the world for that reason, on the basis they are not allegedly genetically different enough.

Actually, as much as Nazis harped on Jews’ alleged genetic difference they also tended to describe them as a polluting mongrol race.

When Jews were mostly outside the land, they were blacker than black. Now they are in large part in the land, the same racists, or their successors, say they are whiter than white.

It is still racism: despite a superficial difference, the situation, and therefore the context has changed, nullifying any alleged reversal of racism.

“‘Nothing new under the sun…’ Not King Solomon, surely, but Ecclesiastes AKA The Preacher.”

Off the top of my head “The words of the preacher, the son of David, king of Jerusalem”. I’m not saying this was necessarily Solomon, but that is certainly the traditional doctrine of both Christians and Jews.

“Show me the Jew gene. You are echoing the shit Nazis used to send Jews to Auschwitz.”

You’ll be after the gay gene next.

People can be associated with ethnic groupings via various genetics markers. This is down to the fact that mutations crop up randomly in given populations so depending on which markers you have it can be determined what race or ethnic grouping your ancestors belonged to.

And whilst I’m here it is good to see these protests in support of Israel especially waving the welsh flag as in Cardiff I have noticed ongoing anti Israel protests for months, specifically one run by an evangelist group that I’m sure has nothing to do with the majority Israeli religion at all, although I’m told it crops up a lot in conversation.

“Show me the Jew gene. You are echoing the shit Nazis used to send Jews to Auschwitz.”

There are drives in many countries for more Jews, along with other ethnic minorities, to join the bone marrow register. For some reason, and you can guess at it if you like, Jews are usually a better bone marrow match for other Jews. Just as Afro-Caribbeans are a better match for fellow Afro-Caribbeans. Now, this doesn’t make Jews a distinct race, but it does suggest that they are more than simply a religious group. An ethnic group or a nation would probably be a better term than ‘race’.

Show me the Jew gene.

Tay-Sachs? Those ones for breast cancer?

Yeah, and somebody who goes on a BNP rally might not support the BNP.

David T, my son, I think you know that is not a very accurate analogy.

“Show me the Jew gene.”

It is obvious that spgb has a stuck record on his head.

We are talking about Jews being a PEOPLE, not a RACE!

But I guess your idol Karl Marx never understood the concept of PEOPLE.