Harry’s Place

There are serious alternatives.

I don’t consider that Israel HAS delivered “crushing victories”. Only in 1967 when they forced Egypt and Jordan into peace when Israel could have taken Cairo.

In fact it is ONLY a crushing victory against Hamas that will tell everyone not to mess with Israel.

This has been the problem. Always a compromise!

Eric Lee is too quick to use national essentialism to attack Freedland.

Bollocks. Strawson is sorely mistaken, or profoundly ignorant of the meaning of the term he uses if it is his contention that in a conflict, the very act of ranking one party’s behaviour less moral or more moral than it’s antagonist’s behaviour renders the one making the judgement an essentialist. I’ll stand corrected if Strawson can point to the sentence in Lee’s piece which asserted or insinuated that Palestinians or Arabs have no choice but to be morally inferior to Israelis because that is their nature which is fixed for all time.

Sorry for being pendantic but I can’t abide the misuse of the apostrophe in my comment above, so to correct matters: “its antagonist’s behaviour”

In fact it is ONLY a crushing victory against Hamas that will tell everyone not to mess with Israel.

True dat!

I think it’s a fair comment, when fatah members are saying “we are hamas now” then there is a problem that violence and military solutions will not solve on thier own (barring nuclear holocaust that is)

I like this site but i think people are getting to carried away with being either pro israel or pro hamas. Please keep sensible and logical otherwise it risk becoming another CIF!! and god help us all if that happened!

I’ve read a similar thesis before, that the reason that Begin and Sadat were able to sign a peace treaty was the conclusion both nations drew from the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Egypt was able to claim that its early gains avenged the humiliation of 1967. Israel realised that they couldn’t take it for granted that they’d be able to win every war.

I think the root cause of the way out of proportion obsession with the ‘Zionist Entity’ is the Islamically mandated demonisation of Jews ….Jew hatred that is the default setting of Muslims in the region.

I suspect this strife in Western Asia will go on, until this religiously inspired visceral hatred abates. There is little sign of this; if anything it’s getting worse. And it isn’t getting worse because of anything Israel is or isn’t doing, it’s because of Islamic reproofing against the toxic Koranic standard; something that is a quite clearly a global phenomenon.

Peace in Israel is very much tied up with the ending of global Jihad.

Mike S,

I think that your analysis is wrong. Firstly, I think that the Israelies were always willing to go to the negotiating table for a full peace, rather than an armastace. The reclacitrant party was always the Arab. The ‘73 war was a victory for the Israelies, albeit after initial set backs. Remeber, again in ‘73, the Israeli military crossed the Suez and entered into Africa. What ‘73 taught the Israelies was that they needed strategic depth (i.e. territory) inorder to protect its borders. Thus returning Sinai in toto was against its national interests, and against the lessons of the ‘73 war. (And against all precedent. The idea that Eygpt could return to the Status Quo Ante after it initiated conflict in ‘67 defies all the normal and historical precedents.)

The Arabs (Egyptian) learnt that not withstanding the any early military gains, ultimately Eygpt would never militarily defeat Isreal. Moreover, they did not want to. Afterall, defeating Israel meant occupying Gaza. Something Eygpt does not want till this day.

Begin and Sadat reached their agreement on the back of the US taxpayer. It was US financial clout in the form of subsidies and international aid the convinced both parties that their national interest lay with a peace treaty.

And, although the peace treaty seems to be cold, National Self interest (big dollar checks from the US) seems to maintain the peace.

And it isn’t getting worse because of anything Israel is or isn’t doing, it’s because of Islamic reproofing against the toxic Koranic standard; something that is a quite clearly a global phenomenon.

I completely agree. At anti-Israel demos one see a great deal of anti-semitism, but also manifestations of a general hatred of all that is non-muslim. There have been, for instance, several gratuitous attacks against churches as well as symbols of secular authority during a few of these events.

I think the root cause of the way out of proportion obsession with the ‘Zionist Entity’ is the Islamically mandated demonisation of Jews

(Yawn) The Palestinian terrorist with the most blood on his hands, George Habash, was Christian. So is Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian legislature and one of Israel’s fiercest critics. So was Edward Said…

Rather than demonization of the Jews, what we clearly have here is demonization of the Muslims.

The Basques and the Irish, who lead materially comfortable lives, have waged long terror campaigns against Spain and Britain, even allying themselves with Libya’s Qadafy to get weapons. What can be expected from the Palestinians, who get water piped into their homes once a week. Dismissing a national conflict as an irrational religious affair is an insult to intelligence (which, admittedly, doesn’t affect many at HP).

For starters Basque and Irish Republican terrorism isn’t and never has been a global phenomonen.

Dismissing a national conflict as an irrational religious affair is an insult to intelligence

Hardly ‘dismissing’, rather just reading the Hamas charter and calling it for what it is.

If you read it you will see that it identifies Hamas as part of the the Muslim brotherhood, bangs on endlessly and piously about Islam and calls for the destruction of Israel.

For starters Basque and Irish Republican terrorism isn’t and never has been a global phenomonen.

(Yawn again) Neither is Palestinian terrorism. Or are you claiming that the Palestinians blew up the Twin Towers?

Hardly ‘dismissing’, rather just reading the Hamas charter and calling it for what it is.

The Likud charter claims sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, and its platform and statements to the media rule out the possibility of a Palestinian state. This, because God gave those territories to the Jews.

Hamas (ONE of various Palestinian parties) wants Israel not to exist for religious reasons. Likud (one of various Israeli parties) wants a Palestinian state not to exist, also for religious reasons. I see a perfect equivalence.

For starters Basque and Irish Republican terrorism isn’t and never has been a global phenomonen.

(Yawn again) Neither is Palestinian terrorism. Or are you claiming that the Palestinians blew up the Twin Towers?

Ever heard of Munich, Entebe, Achille Lauro, Synagogues in Rome or Morroco, or even recent threats (as in this week) to kill Jews where ever they find them?

The Likud charter claims sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, and its platform and statements to the media rule out the possibility of a Palestinian state. This, because God gave those territories to the Jews.

and yet it was Begin who signed Camp David, and Benjamin Natinyhu who signed Wye!

Alberto thinks it helps the antizionist cause to be shown over and over again to be wrong.

Hi Joe
1973 was indeed an eventual victory for Israel, but the nature of the conflict did allow Egypt to reclaim some national pride, after the straight up drubbing they received in 1967. As for needing depth of territory, I always thought that was an Israeli doctrine since 1948 – to compensate for the small size of the country always fight wars at a time of your own choosing and on enemy territory, that was certainly the plan for 1967 wasn’t it?

“The Arabs (Egyptian) learnt that not withstanding the any early military gains, ultimately Eygpt would never militarily defeat Isreal. Moreover, they did not want to.”
Gaza aside, I always find this an interesting feature of 1973. It’s often billed as an Arab war to conquer Israel, but both the Egyptian advance, and to a lesser extent, the Syrians stopped at a crucial point, enabling Israel to gain the upper hand.

Yes, the two people have to live together. Can Mr Strawson now explain how he would persuade the Palestinians to wish to live peacefully with Israel? 5.13% of the vote in the 2006 Palestinian Legislative Election went to parties that advocate peaceful solutions…
That means 94.87% voted for armed struggle (don’t kid yourself about Fatah). How do you persuade them to accept peace when they have no interest in accepting peace?
“We will have to engage with each [Hamas and the Israeli National Bloc (National Union)] however distasteful this might be.” This is flawed on a couple of grounds, the first being factual - the National Union is the correct name for the political group. The second is a problem of conception - Strawson seems unable to distinguish between an armed revolutionary militia and a democratic party.
If this is his idea of the extremes, boy, he’d out of touch!

Ever heard of Munich, Entebe, Achille Lauro, Synagogues in Rome or Morroco, or even recent threats (as in this week) to kill Jews where ever they find them?

Munich was the Israeli team, Entebbe was the Israeli airline, Achille Lauro was to release Palestinians from Israeli prisons, attacks on synagogues and Jews are because Israel claims to represent all Jews in the world.

Argentinian pirate Hipólito Bouchard attacked Spanish interests all over the world when we were fighting for independence from Spain.

In neither case can we speak of a global phenomenon. It’s a national conflict spreading to other parts of the world where interests of both conflicting nations are present.

HB:

In neither case can we speak of a global phenomenon.

Hamas is a Muslim brotherhood franchise - they say so themselves in their own charter linked above; and like that other famous franchise - Mc Donalds it is a global phenomenon. The Brotherhood makes no secret of its goal of global Islamic hegemony. Al Queda was precipitated out of the Muslim brotherhood, as was Jamaat-e-Islami; and many other Jihadist, Suni Koranic literalist, Islamic hydra-like offshoots.

Is this ignorance real or faux….simple obfuscation on HB’s part - judge for yourself.

Hey HB,

Are you willfully ignorant, or just plane stupid. Here read this TIMES article from 1972

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,903580,00.html

And Entebbe involved an Air France flight from Athens!

What else, should we talk about the attempted coup in Jordan, or the hijacking of the OPEC conference. Or the fact that the PLO trained both the IRA (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/34587) and the Red Brigade (http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_red_brigades.html)

Then of course, as Nick pointed out, HAMAS is part of the Muslim Brotherhood etc…

And let us not ever forget that HB, The Propeganda Machine, thinks that jews all over the world are legitamate targets of Islamist terrorism!

Nick — let’s recap. I said:

Dismissing a national conflict as an irrational religious affair is an insult to intelligence.

and you answered

Hardly ‘dismissing’, rather just reading the Hamas charter and calling it for what it is.

But the I/P conflict did not begin with Hamas, and Hamas is not the only Palestinian party. At most you could say there is some overlap between the older conflict, which has mainly to do with nationality, and the newer one, which incorporates the religious dimension. But what you can’t seriously claim is that “the root cause of the way out of proportion obsession with the ‘Zionist Entity’ is the Islamically mandated demonisation of Jews.” George Habash was just as obsessed and he was a Christian.

And Entebbe involved an Air France flight from Athens!

Air France = Yes. (my mistake)
From Athens = No.

The flight originated from Tel Aviv, and when it landed in Uganda, all non-Israelis and non-Jews were allowed to leave the plane, which means the terrorists had absolutely no issue with the 34 Americans or the 30 Britons aboard the aircraft. No global phenomenon, just plain old I/P conflict.

Christians have been known to be obsessed with demonization of Jews, on occasion, haven’t they? Hell, just look at yourself HB.

HB,

The plane was hijacked by your heroes after it took off from Athens.

Bit confused as to where this is going.
Nick says
“And it isn’t getting worse because of anything Israel is or isn’t doing, it’s because of Islamic reproofing against the toxic Koranic standard; something that is a quite clearly a global phenomenon.”
HB claims that PAlestinian terrorism is nationalist, and possibly its most infamous protagionist was drawn from the Christian middle-class. Joe cites that it is global by referring to a litany of attacks carried out by Palestinian groupings who were secular, nationalist or Marxist in outlook. Joe also draws a distinction between the localised terror of the IRA (forgetting their attacks in Germany, Holland and the failed bombing in Gibraltar) and the Palestinians, then says the Palestinians trained them as proof of their global ambition, which would logically tar the IRA with the same brush.

Nick
“Al Queda was precipitated out of the Muslim brotherhood, as was Jamaat-e-Islami”. Well, sort of, but if you followed that logic, could you not find a link from the German SPD to the Khmer Rouge?

HB,

Which is it willfully ignorant or just stupid?

When Haj Amin al Husseini was raising an SS panzer division in Albania, that was an example of a secular nationalist global phenomenon. Right Mike S?

Ah, I see what you did there. Are you arguing.that he was doing it as part of a global jihad?