Harry’s Place

I will never stop criticising Israeli policies that I take to be wrong-headed, short-sighted or immoral.

Here’s Strenger “criticizing” Israel:

None of this justifies even a further minute of Israeli occupation of the West Bank, or the expansion of a single settlement. The problem is that repeated traumas like suicide bombings shortly after signature of the Oslo agreements or rocket barrages after the evacuation of Gaza have led to the point where most Israelis no longer believe that it is worth taking risks for peace.

So, according to the professor, not expanding settlements is equivalent to taking a risk!!! How is Israel’s security compromised by NOT building anymore on Palestinian land?

Hypocrite!!!

Nice post Neil.

Is it just me or are most of the HP writers (bar Gene) against the current Israeli action but most HP commenters are supportive?

Maybe it is just me but there’s a funny feel to this place at the minute.

David T posts a very good dove-ish John Strawson piece and hardly anyone comments, whilst other threads degenerate into slanging matches between trolls of various stripes espousing views I’m certain none of the main bloggers on this site hold.

Like a mini CIF opera.

Strange.

Alberto, the professor did not equate the expansion of WB settlements with taking a risk for peace. He contrasted the trauma of rocket barrages and suicide bombings immediately following the signing of the Oslo accords and the Gaza disengagement with Israelis apprehensive of taking risks for peace.

Alberto, you are a dissembler and you argue in bad faith. Are you sure it’s wise if you want to persuade others to join your antizionist ‘one Islamic state from the river to the sea’ cause, to be smearing a professor who clearly opposes the occupation of the WB and the expansion of WB settlements?

Methinks the more you rant and rave against strawmen like the bad faith smears you make against the professor above cast you as a more and more unconvincing, implacable and deranged interlocutor, but that’s just me.

Where are all these right thinking Israeli academics?

I am pretty sure hen intended to write “correct thinking” academics. “Correct” being “thinking exactly the same thing I think.”

So Hmm, do you agree with Strawson that “Eric Lee is too quick to use national essentialism to attack Freedland.“? If you do, can you point out where Eric Lee’s response to Freedland employed “national essentialism”? Did you find any insinuation or explicit remark from Lee’s piece that it is a fixed essence of Palestinian or Arab nationalists to be morally inferior to Israeli nationalists? I didn’t. I think Strawson owes Lee an apology for demeaning him with that unwarranted remark.

“Where are all these right thinking Israeli academics? I know … they are in the army as reservists doing God knows what because there are no international observers or members of the free international press in Gaza to watch what they are doing …”

The one thing all these anti-Zionist Jew haters have in common is the belief that all Israelis are evil.

Any Israeli is in their eyes guilty of something: “I know … they are in the army as reservists doing God knows what…”

No proof, no proof, no evidence, no charge, JUST ETERNAL GUILT. It’s almost a theological belief in the eternal guilt of the Jew.

Did HB, the Argentinean pogromist, just call someone else a hypocrite?

The friend of the Iranian Hezbollah the murderers of Jews in Buenos Aires is getting insanely comical.

Hypocrites are us, he Mr. Yusuf, aka HB?

My wife emailed me overnight to tell me that this book, ليس لليهود حق في فلسطين (Jews Have No Right to Be in Palestine), is being freely distributed in the East End in Bengali and Urdu as well as English translation.

It’s a notoriously biased and anti-Semitic tract on Palestinian history supplemented with Qur’anic quotes and Muhammadan traditions.

Keep an eye out for it. It’s a legendary sui generis propaganda tool.

I finally lost interest in Buster at 9:29 p.m. on Jan 6th, when he argued that Hamas had to fire rockets at civilians, because they couldn’t hit the IDF with them:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/06/on-the-deaths-in-jabalya/#comments

I can’t see any reason to dignify his efforts with a reply.

What’s really worrying is the carelessness, the indifference with which many who are not themselves anti-Semitic are dealing with open and wild anti-Semitism right now. One can be as unconcerned with the Jews as, for instance, with the Tamils of Sri Lanka or with the Tutsis of Rwanda, because they are all small groups. But anti-Semitism is a big and contagious phenomenon, it is, in itself, much larger and more important than the Jews, I’d say. There are some 15 million Jews in the world, but, as it seem, tens, maybe hundreds of millions of anti-Semites. It is anti-Semitism that works as a glue between the extreme left and the extreme right (I’m talking about the Islamists). And, as anti-Zionism, anti-Semitism became even more accessible, democratic. Under its guise even Jews can nowadays be open Jew haters without apparent contradiction. Most Jews are usually able to survive waves of anti-Semitism, but most societies contaminated by its virus definitely are not.

Sunday 11 Trafalgar Square, London. “End Hamas Terror. Peace for the people of Israel and Gaza.” Be there by 10.40.

A balanced voice to boycott?
Israel: Boycott, Divest, Sanction
“It’s time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa. ”

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090126/klein?rel=hp_currently

I do not want to pass the all article . I hope that some will read it.
I was arguing this approach on this site for last 5 years as only real option for progressives of any kind.
Some so called “progressive” Zionist ( if such thing is possible ?) said that this will be counterproductive. Read the article for the answer!

@ Neil D

I am completely opposed to the UCU’s boycott motions. However I suspect they would not in fact want to boycott Carlo Strenger - I believe he would be deemed acceptable because he is a critic of Israel’s policies.

Yugoslav,

The Klein article is crap.

Then there are those of us who feel that the price for being a civilised state is that you cannot fire at schools, even if an inhuman enemy fires from within. We feel that the ground incursion should have been avoided because we believe that the inhumanity of your enemy must not dictate your own deeds. No one can help but be horrified by the pictures of killed, maimed and terrified Palestinian children. And even though we despise an enemy that is not bound by any rules of recognisable civilisation, we must not let them dictate the terms of engagement.

I disagree.

You MUST fire at a school if terrorists fire at you from there (and I assume its not school-day when this happens). If you don’t then you legitimise their use of human shields and you tell them there are circumstances where they can kill you but you mustn’t defend yourself.

Israel has exercised patience to the point of absurdity and stupidity so don’t talk about going down to the level of Hamas who target civilians. Even the Nazis obeyed the Geneva Convention (sometimes)

Obviously nobody in Gaza has heard of the proverb “People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.”.
Perhaps, if and when the ceasefire takes hold, Hamas will send a mission to HongKong to find out how another small enclave, with twice the population density, manages to have one of the highest standards of living in the world?

Breaking News:
A trade union in Rome, Flaica, issued a statement asking for a boycott of Jewish shops and businesses. There has been great indignation about this, many VIPs gathered in the street and went to Jewish shops to spend generously and protest. Even the communist trade union CIGL protested. Flaica tried to retract, but their words are there in black and white. Some of the usual oafs were inspired to spit on shop windows. I think Flaica may be in legal trouble. I hope so.

I finally lost interest in Buster at 9:29 p.m. on Jan 6th, when he argued that Hamas had to fire rockets at civilians, because they couldn’t hit the IDF with them

Which is lie, of course, given Hamas had ample opportunity to engage enemy combatants while Israeli forces massed on the soutthern border.

Hamas’ response? Lob rockets into Sderot et al.

You MUST fire at a school if terrorists fire at you from there (and I assume its not school-day when this happens). If you don’t then you legitimise their use of human shields and you tell them there are circumstances where they can kill you but you mustn’t defend yourself.

Maven, if the outbound fire from the school is mowing down your men and/or wiping out your civilians, then of course you are entitled to respond. What I don’t want to see is the IDF flattening every civilian building whence a bullet comes.

I admire and endorse what bartok said at 6.49a.m.

Maven,

I agree with Brownie’s response to your comment, but I think you miss the main point of this post. The point being that regardless of your views of the validity of Stenger’s views on Israeli tactics and strategies, his existence undermines the academic boycott argument (or at least those versions based on the idea that all Israeli academics are slavering nutters waiting for the opportunity to carry out war crimes).

Courtesy of Gulf News, another ‘balanced voice’
http://gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10272422.html

Courtesy of the Times - the truth

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5477420.ece

Isn’t this kind of thing the reason we supposedly went to war against Saddam Hussien?

The Klein article is crap.

That is a good rule of thumb in general to hold to.

Maven, if the outbound fire from the school is mowing down your men and/or wiping out your civilians, then of course you are entitled to respond. What I don’t want to see is the IDF flattening every civilian building whence a bullet comes.

And that is precisely what I meant. If there is sniper fire from a window I would expect the fire to be returned and also expect an RPG to be launched at the window. No point in wasting time exchanging bullets.

Bullet fire tends to be opportunistic sniping or keeping someone at bay while you figure out how to grenade them.

Isn’t this kind of thing the reason we supposedly went to war against Saddam Hussien?

No.

TheIrie, please tell us about the Hamas response to the security council’s call for ceasefire.

I too agree with Bartok and am somewhat despairing this morning.

The NYT actually published a piece by Kristoff blaming Israel for Hamas - I couldn’t even read the whole thing. Today it’s Khalidi carefully explaining how the poor citizens of Gaza were herded there by the Israeli army - not a word of course about how the Arabs started a war intended to destroy the nascent state of Israel.

A comment appended to the blog on Kristoff’s piece trumpeted the honorability of the US Army as opposed to the IDF.

Of course the US Army isn’t defending a tiny homeland which is being bombarded by a hostile neighbor and fighting for its very existence, but is attacking people thousands of miles away, supposedly with surgical precision.

Like in Vietnam no doubt.

Iraq is honorable, Vietnam was honorable I suppose whereas the IDF, trying to defend a helpless civilian population, is not.

And for once I would like to see somebody look at that Hamas charter and tell me how Israel is responsible for such hatred, such ignorance?

And how could the New York Times publish such tripe?

I wonder if people - journalists - realize their responsibility not to incite violence? I can’t forget Jenin - and to this day people around the world believe the Israelis committed the atrocities at Sabra and Shatilla. And how many people anywhere understand the rage of the Lebanese Christians on that awful night; nor how the civil war there broke out, or what “Black September” means?

Meanwhile none of the exalted columnists have any ideas as to how to stop the rockets. But whether Israel responds to them or eats them in silence, allowing people to be terrorized for years on end, the UN will blame them, the Red Cross will ignore them except to condemn them; they’ll be condemned by the intelligentsia just for existing.

Something is deeply wrong with this and I fear it.

I fear it because it feels familiar. I heard stories like this from my grandparents who fled the Czar’s Russia. I’ve read them in books about Germany.

Stereotyping is one of the main characteristics of racism - and the UCU (or rather elements of it) appear to be doing this in spades. Shame on them. As usual.

I fear it because it feels familiar. I heard stories like this from my grandparents who fled the Czar’s Russia. I’ve read them in books about Germany.

Exactly. And it is why Israel must continue to exist and be vigourous and strong. It is why Islam must be defanged and crushed. And most of all, the likes of TheIrie must be opposed at every opportunity.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5guK3_qEq7DQlbKywWCBKoa1FB3ig

Hamas reject ceasefire

A trade union in Rome, Flaica, issued a statement asking for a boycott of Jewish shops and businesses. There has been great indignation about this, many VIPs gathered in the street and went to Jewish shops to spend generously and protest. Even the communist trade union CIGL protested. Flaica tried to retract, but their words are there in black and white. Some of the usual oafs were inspired to spit on shop windows. I think Flaica may be in legal trouble. I hope so.

How beautiful it is to live in a country where, when a group of deranged fellows want to boycott the Jews, the PEOPLE support the Jews and not the racists.

In Israel, however, it’s the PEOPLE who call for a boycott of Arabs:

Akko: Jewish residents call for boycott on Arab businesses
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3607517,00.html

Well, not only the people… the rabbis too:

Prominent Acre rabbi calls on city’s Jews to boycott Arab sector
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/779870.html

RACISTS!!!

I can’t forget Jenin - and to this day people around the world believe the Israelis committed the atrocities at Sabra and Shatilla.

Israel’s doctrine is that those who provide help and support to the terrorists are themselves terrorists.

Israel provided help and support to the Phalangists to commit the massacre, and knew what was going on and did nothing to prevent it.

Make no mistake: Israel was an accomplice in the Sabra-Shatila massacre.

How nice to live in a country like Argentina where, when some guys (locals included) blow up the local Jews, the authorities do nothing (or cooperate with the killers). Where are the mothers of Plaza de Mayo to ask for justice week after week, month after month, year after year when one needs them? Nobody in Argentina cares and many Argentinians seem to be pretty happy that the Jews have been compelled by the military dictatorship, by the pro Islamist left and by the Islamists themselves (three very similar groups) to leave their country. Racists.
The truth is: the more the anti-Semites everywhere show their bloody paws, more Jews will go to Israel and, if the enemies haven’t been able to beat 500 thousand Israelis in 48-49, each year it will become more and more difficult to do it.

Actually I do believe Islam must be a religion of peace because its followers are pretty lousy soldiers when it comes to real war. Anti-Semites may have all the wet dreams they want, but the large majority of Jews is nowadays beyond their reach.

Make no mistake: Israel was an accomplice in the Sabra-Shatila massacre.

Not true, the local militia were acting against orders. At what point do you draw the line between individual responsibility and vicarious liability?

Graham Steward -

Do you have a soft copy in English you can send or a web source for that. A recent bit of work i did was on the subject of MB/Hamas anit-Semitism. I would appreciate it

Thanks

SR

Further to “hasbara buster” - you seem to deeply misunderstand Israeli society.

Large demonstrations are frequent there - on behalf of the Palestinians. And no they aren’t merely attended by Israeli Arabs.

Suggesting that Israeli society as a whole agrees with various policies toward the Palestinians is simply ignorant and underestimates the diversity of opinion in Israel as well as the ability of people to express it.

Please read this:

http://lisagoldman.net/2009/01/07/haniyeh-and-his-israeli-sisters-wartime-tales-from-gaza-and-israel/

It includes the interesting fact that Haniyeh has sisters in Israel (and thanks to Sam at RSM for posting it).

Finally I am going to repeat my dismay at the rampant antisemitism that has apparently become acceptable in Europe again. It was only a matter of time and anybody who is surprised hasn’t read history.

One would have hoped the recent destruction of European Jewry and the shameful behavior of “civilized” nations toward the victims before, during and after the Shoah might have made a lasting impression, even created a change in people’s hearts - but apparently not. Apparently we continue to be saddled with this evil monster, only now it is Israel which is blamed for the ills of the world along with the rest of us Jews - and the people who attack Israeli or Jewish civilians are given a free pass and even exalted as martyrs.

Are we nuts?

Worse is the obvious fact that such poison - poison that created “The Protocols” and “Mein Kampf” and the Spanish Inquisition has spread to the Middle East and is driving real insanity there.

Worst of all is the United Nations, happily ignoring vast and continuous human rights violations, including real genocides around the world and focusing daily on condemnations of Israel. This is a complete flaunting of supposed UN ideals. It resembles something out of Orwell - bad enough in itself - worse - this imbalance is actually perpetrating and even creating violence.

One might say the same of unbalanced and innaccurate mainstream media coverage - BBC, NY Times and France2 have all managed to report wildly innaccurate and misleading stories about Israel that have created violent situations leading to more violent situations. Have they no shame?

People of all races, faiths and ethnicities MUST look past our our apparent differences and realize that the worse impulses of mankind threaten to overwhelm us, that mob rule whether in the streets or in the halls of the United Nations can lead only to disaster. And we must all take a step back and question every story in the press and not simply swallow what we hear without skepticism.

We are not sheep, we are thinking, intelligent human beings - can we start acting like them and not simply parroting what we’re told by papers and TV outlets that may well have government, religious or corporate agendas?

As “get the Jew” is becoming a familiar cry once again balance and even simple facts are lost. If we don’t get a grip we’re doomed - all of us.

LBNAZ:

Oh, I quite agreee. Ultimately though, David T ought to answer that particular point given that he posted the Strawson essay. However I wouldn’t rule out an Eric Lee piece along the lines of “My initial response to this conflict was X, but in hindsight I would say Y” - we saw the same after the operations in Lebanon in 2006.

My comment was little more than a remark on the pieces being posted by the veterans in comparison to the vitriol observed in the comments boxes. No more, no less.