Harry's Place

How on earth can it be the government’s fault if some mindless yobs set upon a passer by? I’d blame the mindless yobs myself.

At the risk of sounding facetious… an anonymous letter to Mad Mel? It’s not exactly going to stand up in court. If you believed anything you read there, you’d probably think Obama was currently applying the finishing touches to the new minarets on the White House.

ChrisC – why not conduct an experiment?
Dress as an orthodox Jew and have a wander round E1.
Let us know how it goes.

Sorry – I meant to address that to Mike S.

cjcjc said:”Let us know how it goes.”

Don’t tell people to do things like that they might not come back at all. Remember E1 is Galloway Land.

Mike S:

Risk?

It’s not exactly going to stand up in court

Thanks Mike. He’s probably a congenital liar, isn’t he.

Shame MP didn’t print his fucking name and home address, isn’t it?

This is appalling. However, to say, as David does “Muslims are attacking Jews on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them.” is a typically dishonest line. It generalised, from one incident. What about all the attacks on Muslims? Do we say “The British people are attacking Muslims on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them”? How do we know the youths were Muslims? Assuming they are, are they representative of all Muslims, as is very explicitly implied in this post?

David, you are a complete disgrace.

Perhaps they were Hindus.

Perhaps when white skinheads kick the shit out of some brown person, they’re not Nazis at all, but merely fans of ska music.

“This is appalling. However, …”

Yawn.

Well, they’re right. Muslims are attacking Jews on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them.

If David T is basing such a statement solely on the letter, it is breathtaking.

“What about all the attacks on Muslims?”

Could you send me a link to the attacks by British Jews on British Muslims?

I can certainly tell you that my response won’t be:

“What do you expect, when young Jewish people who witness the impotence of institutions that are supposed to be protecting innocent life”

So, David, do you think “White people are attacking blacks on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them” is a fair comment?

I wonder what “provocation” caused this in Jan last year, for example?

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/content/towerhamlets/advertiser/news/story.aspx?brand=elaonline&category=news&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newsela&itemid=WeED30%20Jan%202008%2020:51:30:863

When that is happening, yes it is a fair statement.

I’d just like you to know. I’m giving you as much rope as you’d like here.

This is not an isolated incident. It is the legacy of Livingstone and Galloway.

That’s a horrible story. Fwiw I obviously hope the attacker are caught and punished though the victim is usually left dealing with mental trauma. I’m not clear which government policy you think needs changing tho, obviously the cops need to be putting in a high profile appearance in certain districts, but thats a local operational matter.

David, I have never asserted that British Jews either have attacked, or do attack, British Muslims.

You have asserted, on the basis of one case, that “Muslims are attacking Jews on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them.” Do you honestly stand by that?

Sorry for not making it clear.

My point is that, apparently, unless the Government’s policies meet with the approval of less than 2% of this country’s population, they will attack Jews in the street.

Hong Kong benji

I’ll address you. I cannot be bothered to address the other unpleasant little man whose card I marked long ago.

This morning i accompanied my sister on her school run in North London. Her children attend different jewish schools. Today both have a police guard. I went with my sister today partly i didnt really believe her and partly because she is a single mum and is a little concerned.

The policeman told me (as well as the parents at the school) that Asian youths have been hanging around the school gates intimidating and threatening the children and their parents. The children are aged 4 to 10.

I can assure you that ‘this letter’ is one of hundreds of incidents being reported at the moment.

Frankly you should be embarassed making these snide, stupid little statements as a non-jew living in Hong Kong.

How the f**k do you know what it is to be jewish in the UK at present?

You really are an utter moron.

MattG

David said:”Could you send me a link to the attacks by British Jews on British Muslims?”

I’ve been wracking my brains to think of any but I can’t think of any.

Maybe they should look on Press TV there might be some ‘news’ sorry bullshit about this matter on there.

A brief comment to those skeptical about this story because it originates from Melanie Phillips. I have criticised Phillips on this blog numerous occassions because of her quite frankly bonkers ideas on Obama, and other matters. However, while I think she has become incresingly shrill and unbalanced, she is not the sort of person who would fabricate a story or knowingly propagate an outright falsehood.

Perhaps they spotted him at the demo and followed him. Sort of thing used to happen all the time on anti-fascist actions.

David T
With the greatest of respect, this is an anonymous letter which chimes precisely with MP’s communalist, and anti-BBC agenda. If a muslim website published a similar letter alleging the same thing in reverse, I’d be just as sceptical.

“Shame MP didn’t print his fucking name and home address, isn’t it?”
Seriously, if you were in court and an opposing lawyer built this case, we both know you’d blow it out the water.

Do you honestly stand by that?

Yes, but I’m going to let you continue to pour scorn on it.

My point is that, apparently, unless the Government’s policies meet with the approval of less than 2% of this country’s population, they will attack Jews in the street.

I think that underestimates the problem. Unless the Government’s policies meet with the approval of less than 2% of this country’s population, they will attack Jews in the street and blow up any UK citizen as on the 7th of July 2005.

Mike S – go on. Take that east end stroll.

“My point is that, apparently, unless the Government’s policies meet with the approval of less than 2% of this country’s population, they will attack Jews in the street.”

a) No-one is saying that.
b) That isn’t what you said. You quite clearly said “Muslims are attacking Jews on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them.”. If that isn’t a completely racist generalisation, I don’t know what is.

It was an appalling attack.

Another indirect consequence of it, of course, is that it’s likely to make Mel even more politically unhinged than she already is. Is this a good thing?

Overall, probably not, particularly for her no doubt long suffering husband, the urbane Joshua Rosenberg, on permanent standby with the compress and cup of tea. But for comedy purposes? Probably yes.

I think that underestimates the problem. Unless the Government’s policies meet with the approval of less than 2% of this country’s population, they will attack Jews in the street and blow up any UK citizen as on the 7th of July 2005.

And this is when the UK government is supporting UN resolutions for a ceasefire.

a) No-one is saying that.

Read the fucking letter, TheIrie:

In the current political climate there is a real danger that young people who witness the impotence of institutions that are supposed to be protecting innocent life, will turn to other organisations in an effort to make their voices heard and the violence stop.

“Seriously, if you were in court and an opposing lawyer built this case, we both know you’d blow it out the water.”

1. This isn’t a court. It is a blog

2. I expect that (a) the person who beat this guy up was caught and (b) the victim gave evidence, it would result in a conviction for a racist assault.

3. Fuck you.

In case my comment earlier wasn’t clear, I mean this could have been a politically- rather than ethnically-motivated assault, for whatever comfort that may bring.

That isn’t what you said. You quite clearly said “Muslims are attacking Jews on the streets of London, and wherever they can find them.”. If that isn’t a completely racist generalisation, I don’t know what is.

a. The fact is it was Muslims, although I do not rule out leftists attacking Jews in the street in time.

b. David’s statement did not say all Muslims.

c. Muslims are not a race, and it is not bigotry to point out that a particular faith group are carrying bigoted actions. If Catholics were gunning down abortion clinic workers, would we have to avoid mentioning they were Catholic for fear of being called racist?

“A brief comment to those skeptical about this story because it originates from Melanie Phillips… she is not the sort of person who would fabricate a story or knowingly propagate an outright falsehood.”

I wouldn’t for one minute suggest she would, however given the crap she’s ready to believe and print on any subject from Obama to MMR, there’s scarcely any reason for her to do so.

Tell you what, David, if you stick by that statement, what about this statement:

“Jews kill children in the streets of Gaza and wherever they find them”.

To be clear, I think its a disgusting statement. However, it has exactly the same basis as your previous statement. This is why what you wrote is so disgusting.

Another indirect consequence of it, of course, is that it’s likely to make Mel even more politically unhinged than she already is. Is this a good thing?

Of course, when Jews are being beaten in the street for being Jewish, and being advised to flee areas by the Police, Benji gets right to the heart of the matter. Will this make Melanie Phillips more deranged. Who gives a fuck?

Fuck off Benji.

Furthermore, the sheer gall and hypocrisy of TheIrie accusing anyone else of being racist (again, what race are followers of the religion of Islam again? Will he accuse folks like me who can’t stand $cientologists of being racist as well?) whenever he has consistently shown himself to be utterly and completely racist to an unbelievable degree himself is staggering.

If that isn’t a completely racist generalisation, I don’t know what is.

Whether or not it is a racist one, it certainly sounds absurdly over the top, barring further evidence.

“Jews kill children in the streets of Gaza and wherever they find them”.

That’s pretty much the line in most of my daily newspapers…

Im glad that you are also appalled at their abandonement of any impartiality and dangerous incitement to racial haterd against the Uks worried jewish population.

Next….

mattG

I wouldn’t for one minute suggest she would, however given the crap she’s ready to believe and print on any subject from Obama to MMR, there’s scarcely any reason for her to do so.

There’s a difference between her ignorance of science and crap opinions on Obama, etc and how she handles an email sent into her. Even in her most demented articles she does not make up evidence, she just interprets it badly.

Presumably this is what we can expect on Sunday.

Neil D

Don’t be anal. Obviously the incident is appalling. But what more can be said? It’s bad, let’s hope its not repeated, etc. I am just making fun of Mel.

A convoy of 80 cars were stopped by the Police heading from Stratford east London to the pro-Israel demo on Wednesday. I doubt they were quakers.
Speaking with an Israeli friend of mine he concurred that Jews in the UK have gone soft. As far as some on the far left are concerned your the bnp with a kippah.

David, there’s a tiny minority of “animal rights” nutters who believe they are entitled to attack workers in and suppliers to pharmaceutical research companies and who would presumably say that their attacks are the government’s fault because it hasn’t changed the law to ban animal research.

There are bits of Glasgow where you can expect to be beaten up for wearing Celtic colours, and others where identification with Rangers makes you a target.

For some time now being an identifiable Moslem has opened one to attack in parts of the UK owing to an unjustifiable belief that the outrages of a few Moslems justify retribution against the population as a whole.

Given the current events in Gaza I suspect obviously identifiable Jews are temporarily going to find themselves targets for a tiny minority of bigots just because they are Jews. Whilst this is clearly reprehensible I’m not sure why it’s in a different league of unacceptability to the other examples above, nor am I convinced that anyone has shown there have been more than few isolated incidents. The hysterical language about Moslems attacking Jews on the streets of Britain wherever they can find them is unjustified, unhelpful and would I suspect be treated with scorn by you if it were used in any other context, e.g. “Moslems are being attacked by Brits wherever they can be found on the streets of Britain”.

You are a better blogger than this.

It’s bad, let’s hope its not repeated, etc.

Who could doubt Benji’s sincere sympathy and unconditional condemnation?

ChrisC

“Given the current events in Gaza I suspect obviously identifiable Jews are temporarily going to find themselves targets for a tiny minority of bigots just because they are Jews.”

Are you aware of any muslim targets attacked in the UK after suicide bomb attacks in Israel over the last 20 years?

mattG

Frankly you should be embarassed making these snide, stupid little statements as a non-jew living in Hong Kong.

You really are an utter moron.

Thanks for the pillow talk. Not sure I made a snide comment, or anything spectacularly awful, I am just questioning David T’s choice of words, which sound a bit over the top.

Got to chuckle at my new and somewhat odd appellation “non-Jew”.

Who could doubt Benji’s sincere sympathy and unconditional condemnation?

This is absurd. Would someone like to put up a list of street crimes and racist attacks for me to condemn? Is this what Decentpedia calls a Condemn-a-thon?

Will you stop with this ‘Asian youths’ shit please!!

This is fucking pissing me off!

It’s not bloody Hindus or Sikhs is it??

Stop fucking implicating me, my family or my friends in this kind of thing by using the term ‘Asian’

This fucking pisses me off!

In the meantime, I hope the next time this happens one of these Hassidic lads pulls out a knuckleduster and smashes the face in of these violent racist c*nts! That’ll be just about right. Motherfuckers!

This thread can be summarised as follows:

David T posts an account of someone being viciously attacked in an obvious anti-semitic attack, and TheIrie and Benji immediately steam in and try and raise a smokescreen and blatantly and transparently condemn David T for daring to point out said anti-semitic attack.

Funny how TheIrie and Benji *always* expand so much energy on this sort of thing? Actually, its not funny at all, its depressing. Why do they both have so much emotional investment in brown-skinned genocidal fascists?

“Are you aware of any muslim targets attacked in the UK after suicide bomb attacks in Israel over the last 20 years?”

Very good analogy and very good question.

Barad said:”Presumably this is what we can expect on Sunday.”

I hope not but I’m prepared for a load of verbal from the Islamofash and the Trotscum.

Is there a place where both Jews and Muslims live, where Jews are not attacked by Muslims?

Is there a place other than Israel, where Jews attack Muslims? (Keeping in mind that Muslims attack Jews here as well.)

MattG, No, but so what? If you’re making the point that British Jews are on the whole a relatively law abiding and non-violent bunch I wouldn’t disagree with you. Why is that relevant to this post or the comments made?

cjcjc

“Very good analogy and very good question.”

Indeed. But Im sure Michael Rosen, Hasbara Buster, TheIriot and the usual suspects are researching pretty furiously as we type.

Something will turn up…and the point of the question will have gone ‘whoosh’ over their poor hate-filled little heads.

mattG

In all seriousness, Melanie Phillips is a liability for those concerned with the rise of Islamism in the UK. She highlights real issues – and is too often virtually alone in doing so – but the valid things she says are swamped out by the paranoid nonsense. If what she writes is discounted out of hand by many just because she has written it, then she largely has herself to blame.

“and TheIrie and Benji immediately steam in and try and raise a smokescreen”

When I read the writing of, say, a black political activist who points out instances of racist violence against blacks to make broader generalizations about public life, and I do, and occasionally I disagree with such writing. But I tend to so internally, i.e. not post criticisms obsessively on a blog for example, and I tend not to disagree so much when I do read something along these lines anyway. I guess this is because those who are obsessed with critiquing such a point of view tend to be crazy racist morons, and I don’t see myself as a crazy racist moron.

Look – was it an anti-Semitic attack? Yes. Blatantly it was. It was terrible, and I hope those who did it get caught and prosecuted. If I’d witnessed it, I hope I would have stepped in.

However, there is a very good word for what David does here. It is “Demagogy”. You take an incident like this, a single incident, and advance a completely unjustifiable generalisation – Muslims are attacking Jews. This is how the facists and racists operate. It is standard operating proceedure for whipping up racism.

Just in case anybody cares, I’ve spoken to my dad who lives close to this guy, and he has confirmed that he was attacked.

If a muslim website published a similar letter alleging the same thing in reverse, I’d be just as sceptical.

Asghar Bukhari said he’d received sinister letters from “Zionists”.

I guess there’s a bit of anarchist in me. Send the BNP 10,000 cuples and invite them to turn up at the next pro-Israel rally. Let’s have it out and lanced.

I’m sorry but unless there is visible violence then the Govt’ won’t act. If I was known to be threatened then I might ask for some Big Brother or Security help. I’d also hope that Israeli security forces might send a few ‘helpers’.

This goes to the thread about Israel not dragging itself down to the level of those who attack them. If ONLY Jews in Germany had organised and fought the Nazis in every way possible.

Sorry but I am not prepared to see Jews attacked or killed for being Jews. Attacking Jews for supporting Israel is antisemitism since they aren’t Israeli nationals.

I ramble but I’m angry.

Keep going TheIrie.

Because you do realise that this is leading up to the point at which we start posting the statistics ories about attacks on Jews in the street by “asian” “youths”.

That, of course, will be the point at which Mike S starts to demand live testimony, cross examined by a defence barrister, before he accepts that anybody has been attacked. And you begin to cast doubt on the statistics, or attack me for pointing them out, and so on…

Incidentally, can you see why Jews don’t rely on self-proclaimed “anti-racists” when they’re being attacked?

Pablo said: “Will you stop with this ‘Asian youths’ shit please!!

This is fucking pissing me off!

It’s not bloody Hindus or Sikhs is it??

Stop fucking implicating me, my family or my friends in this kind of thing by using the term ‘Asian’

This fucking pisses me off!”

Pablo is right-the media should call a spade a spade. But it won’t.

As Maven says and I have said before, this government cowers and makes concessions in fear of “community” violence. So far this has been almost entirely Muslim community violence. If Jews rioted and threatened “radicalisation” (i.e terrorism) then they would be listened to as well. But I do not want to be part of violent Jewish community, so what is the answer?

B.

If you have those statistics to hand, David, I’d be interested to look at them. I think that there is a fairly heavy burden of proof on you for your generalisation.

“Incidentally, can you see why Jews don’t rely on self-proclaimed “anti-racists” when they’re being attacked?” I have said I’m on the side of the person that was attacked. I also agree with highlighting this in the press. What I don’t agree with is scapegoating an entire community, which is what you have done.

“MattG, No, but so what? If you’re making the point that British Jews are on the whole a relatively law abiding and non-violent bunch I wouldn’t disagree with you. Why is that relevant to this post or the comments made?”

Look, my interest is in the posts I read on this blog. Sometimes I come onto the comments thread to see the reaction to them (alebit that on occasions such as this I wonder why I bother).

I have no interest really in trying to change your opinion thus Im afraid I cannot engage in a long discussion of this. Out of politeness though and quickly because I am actually working (or trying to)…….

A couple of years back BBC 5Live did a feature on the rise in anti-semitism in the UK. As part of their research for the programme they interviewed several friends of mine invloved in various groups. The programme they put on bore no resemblance to the information my contacts gave them. They used the information, but DELIBERATELY mislead the listener as to what the information meant.

So, attacks on jewish cemetries were the fault of white skinheads, attacks on jews were by white skinheads, jews were scared of the BNP etc. The BBC didnt want to tell the story. the programme was thus pointless. The information they had been given, which was correct, was that the attacks were coming, in increasing levels from British muslim youths.

The UKs jews know that this is the case. The British police know that this is the case. The British media, establishment and media generally know that this is the case.

The concern of many UK and European jews is that their situation will become untenable in places they call home. Muslim communities (or more accurately angry young elements within) will make their life difficult and uncomfortable. Host countries of both communities will decide either ‘a plague on both your houses’ or ‘well there are a lot more muslims than jews so the jews can all f**k off to Israel.”

I believe that the BBC, among many other major organistations are scared and intimidated by their muslim community. If jews attacked a Bangladeshi restaurant shouting anti-muslim slurs, they would lead on this story for days, with glee.

You may disagree. You may think that they would report this because they would be surprised at such behaviour from their ‘law-abiding’ jewish community.

I think it is more worrying and more sinister than that. So when people, like you, talk about Rangers supporters attacking Celtic supporters, or whatever it is you said….its ……not too clever really.

As I say, little time so I cannot really express this in the detail with which I would wish. Nor really can I be arsed. Its not the Benjamins, Iriots, or you that I need to convince really.

MattG

The police cant stop all violent attacks, whether inter or intra racial, but they could make a point of showing up in force near synagogues. This will reduce violent attacks.
Government ministers could also make a statement or two. They could also deport any non-British resident here who incites violence (fat chance).

If attacks like these were happening to any other minority with such regularlity there would be a shitstorm.

Spot on Pablo. Its nothing to do with Asian youth and everything to do with some Muslims.
Indeed with regard to Christians, Sikhs and Hindus the adage of hanging together comes to mind….

TheIrie and Benji immediately steam in and try and raise a smokescreen and blatantly and transparently condemn David T for daring to point out said anti-semitic attack.

That’s untrue, Morgoth.

I do not have any objection to David T raising the issue of an antisemitic attack, nor did I say anything of the sort. I merely offered the opinion that one sentence was over the top and potentially misleading, barring any further evidence to support it.

To be honest I think it’s a miracle that a synagogue or other Jewish target like a community centre or disco has not been attacked in a suicide bombing in the UK yet. Do you remember that fat bastard from Hounslow who blew himself up in Tel Aviv, and his lanky twat of a friend from Derby whose belt didn’t go off and was found floating in the sea afterwards? Those two pieces of shit were British Pakistanis and were brainwashed into doing that over there, but they were brainwashed here in England. The way things are moving now, why wouldn’t some of these horrible bastards do the same here? The ‘righteousness’ of such an act has already been established, and you have the usual parade of fuckwits writing letters warning that if our government doesn’t bend over and do as ordered we can expect you know what, rage, anger, blah blah blah, usual shit. That is the atmospherics that legitimise all of it, and in the post-operation sense, will make fist waving fuckwits wave their fists and blame the victims for their racist psychopathy and nihilism. I pray I am wrong, that it never happens, but in all honesty, I’m only surprised that it hasn’t happened yet.

Obviously the incident is appalling. But what more can be said?

Does anybody want to have another go at trying to convince me that Benji’s contrarian views are a breath of fresh air of this blog, or how his contributions facilitate meaningful discussion?

“I have said I’m on the side of the person that was attacked. ”

Like fuck you are

If you saw an elderly Jewish man being attacked in the street by a keffiyeh wearing “youth”, your first thought would be:

“Hmm. I’m not 100% convinced this is actually happening”

followed by:

“How can I be sure this is a racist attack?”

followed by:

“I think we need to understand the situation that has driven this “youth” to attack this elderly Jewish man”

The beautiful alliance between Harry’s Place and the reactionary, bigoted, hateful right wing Melanie Phillips continues.

Centre Left? Arf!

Sadly the government can’t deport non-British residents who incite violence – nearly all of these are entitled to asylum here. One reason I hate the Human Rights Act!

Fuck off Bob. That simple.

OK, David, you being irrational now. It is understandable that you are upset by this incident, indeed it is human of you to be so. When you calm down, perhaps you’ll see my point.

Meanwhile, heard the one about the Israeli troops hearding civilians into a building for their protection, then bombing the building, killing 30 or so of them? What’s that – tough love? Presumably Brownie will say, what possible motive could Israel have for doing that? Well, who knows. That’s what they did though.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun

This is not an isolated incident. It is the legacy of Livingstone and Galloway.

It’s international. Jews have been physically attacked in Canada ( Calgary), a jewish elementary school in Montréal was bombed, and at the recent anti-Israel demos in Toronto ( and elsewhere) overt references to gas chambers and ovens are often heard.

You know, cutesy phrases like; “Hitler didn’t finish the job” are bandied about like nursery rhymes.

And if those committing these acts and uttering these slogans are to be believed, it’s all the government’s fault!

They are entitled to a pass for no other reason than the fact they’re non-western.

The menace and the threats are quite on par with those expressed by rabid neo-nazis, but to condemn the menace and to denounce the threats, seeings they’re expressed by non-westerners, would be a blatant act of racism and neo-colonialism, now wouldn’t it?

Not to mention islamophobic.

What the fuck has that “meawhile” got to do with a keffieyeh wearing “youth” beating the crap out of some old jewish bloke.

Fuck you.

Meanwhile, heard the one about the Israeli troops hearding civilians into a building for their protection, then bombing the building, killing 30 or so of them? What’s that – tough love? Presumably Brownie will say, what possible motive could Israel have for doing that? Well, who knows. That’s what they did though.

I see rolling news has yet to begin on whatever planet it is that you inhabit, Irie.

Israel says that IDF troops had not made it that far into Gaza at the time this incident was supposed to have taken place. So right now we have an unverifiable story from a Palestinian source, and an Israeli denial. The only sensible position to adopt right now is one of non-commitment, which is why you are happy to go public with:

That’s what they did though

What is it with you honest brokers and your sincere desire to see things from all sides?

Notice how TheIrie, with his 12:51 pm comment, repeats his habit of swallowing (and regurgitating) Hamas and Hezbollah propaganda wholesale *again*.

Yet to even suggest that an Islamist committed an anti-semitic attack then he suddenly turns up with a barrage of posts trying to deflect and deny.

Benji, fuck off. You’re spent this entire thread sniping at David T for daring to post that an Islamist committed an anti-semitic attack.

Meanwhile…

Jesus you’re beyond parody.

Meanwhile, heard the one about the Israeli troops hearding civilians into a building for their protection, then bombing the building, killing 30 or so of them? What’s that – tough love? Presumably Brownie will say, what possible motive could Israel have for doing that? Well, who knows. That’s what they did though.

This sounds very much like the one I heard of Hamas members donning their stolen IDF uniforms, telling the civilians which building to go to that they had booby-trapped. When they were there! Boom!

If anyone is interested in the facts, there have been over 50 antisemitic incidents reported to CST in the past 12 days. This is a higher rate than during the first two weeks of the Lebanon war in 2006, which currently stands as the largest ’spike’ in antisemitic incidents we have ever recorded in the UK.

The incidents reported to us include assaults (including the one described by Melanie Phillips), a synagogue arson, hate mail, verbal abuse, threats and a series of organised daubings of Jewish buildings and public spaces in ‘Jewish’ areas of London.

The vast majority of these incidents make direct reference to Israel and/or Gaza and about half use Islamist discourse or were perpetrated by people of Asian or Arab appearance.

part of the problem is that the term hate crime has been ridiculously abuse post-MacPherson. it has become stretched to include any crime where the victim happens to be from a different group.

this is why hate crime legislation was enacted in the first place – to protect people who felt in fear of safety. it’s disgraceful that anyone should feel endangered in this country because of their religion.

The source is the UN brownie, not the Palestinian’s. Anyway, this is off topic, so I’ll respect David’s polite request, and sling my hook.

Ed Husain had this to say on the BBC:

“Prominent British Muslims are warning the government anger among young Muslims over events in the Middle East is reaching dangerous levels.

Ed Husain, co-founder of think-tank the Quilliam Foundation, is a former Islamist and expert on radicalisation. He said years of work on promoting moderation were now at risk.

He said: “The first response I got from the events in Gaza… [was] from Muslims up and down the country telephoning, saying, ‘How can we prevent terrorism from happening on our streets again? Anger is so widespread, anger is everywhere.’

“That’s a bad sign when moderate leaders suddenly feel, ‘How can we push back against this?’ That their work over the last two or three years has been undermined by events in the Middle East.” ”

Ed, the issue is that moderate leaders need to address the racism against Jews in their community. You can’t spend years of propoganda building anti-semitism among Muslims and then complain when Muslims commit anti-semitic violence.

The problem is not the “provocation”, requiring that the UK should change its foreign policy. The UK’s foreign policy should not be predicated on appeasing a bunch of racist lunatics who commit acts of terror whenever they think they have an opportunity.

The problem is the support and encouragement given to those racist lunatics.

Benji, fuck off. You’re spent this entire thread sniping at David T for daring to post that an Islamist committed an anti-semitic attack.

I have done nothing of the sort. I have an inkling you might just know that.

Meanwhile, heard the one about the Israeli troops

As an apologist for these physical attacks, I take it you’re now in favour of vigilantes.

You really are disgusting.

“there have been over 50 antisemitic incidents reported to CST in the past 12 days”

Based on anecdotal evidence in London, this totally understates the real numbers. Most people don’t bother to report anything.

“Bob Latchford
9 January 2009, 12:45 pm

The beautiful alliance between Harry’s Place and the reactionary, bigoted, hateful right wing Melanie Phillips continues.

Centre Left? Arf!”

Bob Latchford, useful idiot of the Islamofascist right – not ‘arf!

“Just in case anybody cares, I’ve spoken to my dad who lives close to this guy, and he has confirmed that he was attacked.”

I do, and I apologise for my initial Mel-related scepticism. I hope they bang up the c**ts who did it.

He said: “The first response I got from the events in Gaza… [was] from Muslims up and down the country telephoning, saying, ‘How can we prevent terrorism from happening on our streets again? Anger is so widespread, anger is everywhere.’

I was fucking angry afew years back when the Serbs were butchering Bosnians. I didn’t feel the need to threaten that if Hurd the Turd wasn’t sacked forthwith, andour shameful policy of appeasement to Milosevic and the rest of his murderers, I’d blow up civilians on the tube, or threaten terrorism, or attack the Jugoslavian embassy.

Tevya, you are entirely correct. All hate crimes are under-reported.

Thanks Mike. I appreciate you saying that.

I really have been very upset by this, because basically, this is where my dad lives.

It could have been him.

This is what personal ownership of tasers and mace are for.

The source is the UN brownie, not the Palestinian’s.

Nope, read your own propoganda. The source is Palestinian. The UN are relaying what they were told…by Palestinian witnesses.

Brownie – that is beyond pitiful. But like I said, lets not derail this thread – if you want to take it elsewhere, I’ll join you.

David – you have my sympathy. When one perceives that ones family is in danger, one can easily become angry and irrational and can even do silly things. Welcome to Gaza.

David T:

My point is that, apparently, unless the Government’s policies meet with the approval of less than 2% of this

Are you still in favour of continuied unfettered Muslim serial immigration of first cousins (55% of UK Muslims of Pakistani origin marry first cousins) as marriage partners David – it’s a serious question?

Surely if one wanted to crush Israel and Zionism one would encourage your followers to not attack Jews in other countries, since Zionism only exists because of anti-Semitism. I would tell my followers to be really nice to diaspora Jews and make them feel positive about their countries.

The Irie

I do not live in a country in which the ruling party exists to commit genocide against any other country.

I do not live in a country which intends or is attempting to extinguish and wipe from the map, any other country.

I live in a country in which Muslims enjoy the same full civil and political rights any any other citizen.

I live in a country in which Jews live peacefully within the law.

So, in short, fuck you.

You also live in a country that is not occupied. Where you family are free to work and free to travel. Where your human and civil rights are not denied you for 40 years. Where you land and home are not taken from you. Where a foreign army doesn’t monitor your every move, impose a siege pushing you to the brink of starvation such that you have to eat grass, and then and routinely kill your neighbours and family.

If you did, you might have a slightly different perspective.

“You also live in a country that is not occupied.”

Meanwhile, so do the people who beat up this old Jew for being an old Jew. So do you. So your comment, again, could not be more irrelevant.

TheIrie, Israel left Gaza in 2005.

Of course the only “human and civil rights” that TheIrie has in mind are those to slaughter Jews.

Bear in mind, TheIrie *refused* to go on a demonstration by Iranian exiles against the Mullahs – the same Mullahs who used regiments of CHILDREN to blow up minefields, even though it was about two doors down from him. Muslim children. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims killed by the Mullahs and TheIrie can’t disassociate himself from a protest by MUSLIMS (and other faiths) against the Mullahs. Since then, he’s made a habit of shilling for the said same Mullahs. Just like he shilled for Saddam and the Taliban.

And then he rushed to a demonstration replete with flags of genocidal fascists, a genocidal-fascist organised demonstration whose sole aim was to give support to said genocidal fascists who are in the business of killing Jews.

So, when it comes to Muslim deaths at the hands of other muslims, TheIrie is nowhere to be found. But one muslim dies at the hand of a jew (in self-defense) and TheIrie is foaming.

TheIrie, are you an Islamist in disguise?

Ed Husain, co-founder of think-tank the Quilliam Foundation, is a former Islamist and expert on radicalisation. He said years of work on promoting moderation were now at risk.

Ed Husain knows fucking well that there is NO moderate islam. There ARE moderate Muslims, but they’re moderate despite the ‘faith’.

And if the behavior displayed during these demonstrations exemplifies ‘years of work’ promoting Muslim moderation, then I think we’re in deep, deep do-do.

How come we don’t have to spend years promoting Hindu moderation or Polish-Catholic moderation at gov’t expense?

TheIrie is a vile hypocrite who excuses Hamas war crime murders of Israelis for years but cries crocodile tears like a snivelling child when Palestinians are killed accidentally by the IDF in their operation to liberate Gaza from the Hamas war criminals.

What kind of waste of space is that ? Anyone here who tries to debate with such a specimen must be mad.

TheIrie – it’s a shame you never had a chance to campaign for Sudetenland Germans and Danzigers in 1938. You’d have been in your element.

You could have even defended Kristallnacht by reference to the Jewish boycott of German goods.

Former Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi said: “the question is not what the Germans did to the Jews, but what the Jews did to the Germans.” For you too?

Brownie – that is beyond pitiful.

Jesus, Irie, you’re going to be embarrassed when you bother to re-read these reports.

The witnesses are Palestinian. There was no UN personnel around at the time to verify these claims. The UN are reporting what Palestinian witnesses are claiming. And like I said, Israel is denying that IDF troops had made it that far into Gaza so soon after the incursion.

What, in the name of Christ, is “beyond pitiful” about that?

You also live in a country that is not occupied. Where you family are free to work and free to travel. Where your human and civil rights are not denied you for 40 years. Where you land and home are not taken from you. Where a foreign army doesn’t monitor your every move, impose a siege pushing you to the brink of starvation such that you have to eat grass, and then and routinely kill your neighbours and family.

Nowhere has David T. claimed the UK is Syria.

You are as daft as an islamist.

The source, Brownie is a UN report. It is collected from “several witness testimonies”, which it is probably safe to infer are Palestinian witnesses, but it doesn’t explicitly say that. The fact that they are Palestinian witnesses doesn’t mean anything, unless you want to openly admit to being racist. There were also “several” testimonies, and the UN clearly decided that it was sufficiently satisfied that this is what happened to release it as a report. If its incorrect, its the UN’s credibility that is on the line. So, it is, as I said, a UN source.

TheIrie
9 January 2009, 1:22 pm

“The source is the UN brownie, not the Palestinian’s. Anyway, this is off topic, so I’ll respect David’s polite request, and sling my hook.”

Do you ever tell the truth on anything? Why dont you piss off like you said you would?

Instead of continuing to attempt to derail this thread…….

I marked your card long, long ago TheIriot. You are EXACTLY what this blog is fighting against. Every post you make here is a vindication of this blog.

Quite why you have been indulged as long as you have is beyond me.

Jews you see, much too forgiving.

Now do fuck off you nasty, creepy little boy.

MattG

The same UN who were working with the Hamas war criminals in Gaza for years and doing nothing about their crimes are now repeating without independent verification stories about Israeli actions.

What a surprise. Nothing they say can be believed. They connived with Hamas for years in its war crimes by doing nothing to arrest them and are now totally discredited.

ref: “If its incorrect, its the UN’s credibility that is on the line.”

Oh dear! How could anyone ever doubt the UN’s credibility on anything having to do with the “Zionism equals Racism” entity

Perhaps THEIRIE would care to note: you can’t equate Israelis warring with Hamas, and Muslims attacking Jews in the UK. The former is war, and a war that started purely owing to Hamas attacks on Israel.

The latter is simply *some* British Muslims yet again believing that if they throw a collective tantrum, the powers that be will feel so afraid that they will start pressuring Israel even more than they already are to halt the operation in Gaza.

And to stress: that letter was NOT just an isolated incident. For every single attack on British Jews that makes the media, there are another three that are not publicised. Jewish schools, even small ones, mostly now have police officers stationed outside them, because the threat level is so real.

In NW London a few days ago, a Jewish guy was dragged from his car and then severely beaten by two Muslim men who made it clear this was ‘retribution for gaza’.

We all remember how the worldwide Muslim community responded when a few irreverant cartoons appeared. Yet this week, in the UK, Spain and Greece, several anti semitic cartoons and articles appeared – anyone see Jews rioting and setting things on fire? No? Thought not.

There have been articles in Greek newspapers, for instance, regurgitating Hitler’s old lies, and claiming that the Jews are ‘plotting to take over the world’ and ‘the cause of all the economic problems.’

Most British Jews have the same acute worry: combine the problem in Gaza, with the way the British media is reporting it, throw in the recession we are experiencing, and it won’t be long before you’ll see Jews starting to leave the UK.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/schoolgate/2009/01/why-are-your-pe.html

The comments are particularly depressing

“If its incorrect, its the UN’s credibility that is on the line.”

What credibility? The UN is either the infallible Vicar of God on Earth, or it is a squalid club of cleptocrats. It might have Divine authority, but it has no credibility.

“The fact that they are Palestinian witnesses doesn’t mean anything, unless you want to openly admit to being racist.”

Because Palestinian is a race? Isn’t that racist?

As other people have pointed out, the contributions by Mike S, Benji and TheIrie were entirely predictable.

From the outset you knew they would be dismissive of any details of racial attacks against Jews, why this is I can’t say

But if you look through various HP threads you will see that they have shown little or no sympathy towards Jews, the Israelis, etc

Far from it, so these latest episodes just seem to follow their existing train of thought.

Had it been a racial attack against ANY other ethnic minority, then Mike S, Benji and TheIrie wouldn’t have been quibbling but when the word “Jews” gets mentioned their attitude seemed to change?

Anyone interested in details of racial attacks against Jews, should consult the CST reports:

http://www.thecst.org.uk/index.cfm?content=7&Menu=7

http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/Incidents_Report_07.pdf

I expressed initial scepticism because of the source of the report, I was wrong to do so, have acknowledged that and have apologised for it on this thread.

However, if it’s going to cheer up your friday to make another one of your baseless, mealy-mouthed insinuations of anti-semitism against me, fill your boots son!

I also clearly condemned the attack, and have offered my sympathy to David for his personal feelings of concern. However, you’ll have to forgive me if this particular story isn’t at the top of my agenda right now. Believe me, if 750 Jews had been killed in Israel, and the killing was ongoing, whilsts a Muslim had been beaten up in Kensington, I would be taking the story about the Jews very seriously indeed. In reality, it’s the other way round, so sorry if I haven’t expressed sufficient anger for you on this blog.

instead of trying to rationalise your comments, look inside yourself and show some humility

go on try it…

this PC pussyfooting is not confined to the UK — mark steyn wrote about an incident at a jewish community center in seattle:

Muslim male shows up … and shoots six Jewish women, one of whom tries to flee up the stairs, but he spots her, leans over the railing, fires again and kills her. He describes himself as “an American Muslim angry at Israel” and tells 911 dispatchers: ”These are Jews. I want these Jews to get out. I’m tired of getting pushed around, and our people getting pushed around by the situation in the Middle East.” And the local FBI guy took the usual no-jihad-to-see-here line. ”There’s nothing to indicate it’s terrorism related,”

why does the BBC call naughty muslim kids ‘asian youths’?

its not because they’re scared of the encroachment of jihadism and the retribution they might face by antagonizing this incendiary group; they’re more terrified of being labeled racist.

in the 80s we were taught at school when my local education authority changed “ba-ba black sheep” to “ba-ba green sheep”, and when they changed the blackboards to greenboards, that there is No Greater Sin Than Racism.

to my enlightened bourgeois chums it’s racist to talk of the dysfunction at the heart of the radical muslim .. no, the default position of rose-tinted relativism is “i wouldn’t shoot people unless i had a serious grievance/i wouldnt fire rockets indiscriminately unless i was really desperate and had no other option”. for this to work you need a source of grievance; of course israel fits the bill.

sadly this is the lens through which many of our compatriots view the world, and the BBC is one of the great purveyors of this orwellian exercise. it was bad enough when i left the UK in 2001, sadly its worse now.

Modernity
“instead of trying to rationalise your comments, look inside yourself and show some humility.”
What in God’s name are you talking about?

Mike S you wrote:

“mealy-mouthed insinuations of anti-semitism against me, fill your boots son!”

I am not, that’s NOT insinuating anything. I am stating that you and the above are consistent in your attitudes

the fact that these very attitudes lead you initially to question the post in ways that you wouldn’t, if it had been ANY OTHER ethnic or social minority, is a question you might ask yourself

but then again I doubt that you, Benji or TheIrie really reflect on your own views, introspection doesn’t appear to be your strong suit

again, just so you get it, you, Benji, TheIrie are mechanically responsive on this type of issue, thus you question the basis of evidence of a racial attack, when you would not, in all probability, do it on other occasions

as to WHY, that is the case, I can’t say, however, your posts are evidence enough of some malaise, but that is in your own hands, not mine

ChrisC, when the poster here said that the government would apparently be at fault, he or she was being facetious. Don’t take the sentence literally.

I am glad Mike S has apologised in the light of David confirming the attack did indeed take place – it is pretty rare on this blog (or any other web forum) for people to hold their hands up as they would in ‘normal life’ – so people should accept that in good spirit.

Unlike Mike S, I wouldn’t have thought Melanie would have made up this – I don’t agree with most of her writing but I don’t think she would invent a story like this.

I know Mike S is not an anti-semite and any insinuations to the contrary are ridiculous.

On a related issue – when the annual report on anti-semitic incidents are released it is always greeted with scepticism. This really did not happen in the past with reports of racially motivated attacks on other ethnic groups.

Why is this?

A few possible reasons:

1. These people don’t believe Jews when they talk about anti-semitic incidents because they think Jews are either liars or whingers.

2. People think these incidents make Muslims look bad and so they prefer to pretend they are insignificant or didn’t even happen.

3. Some people on the left think that Jews are generally wealthy and successful and therefore cannot possibly be victims in any circumstance.

There were also “several” testimonies, and the UN clearly decided that it was sufficiently satisfied that this is what happened to release it as a report. If its incorrect, its the UN’s credibility that is on the line. So, it is, as I said, a UN source.

The UN is recounting a story told to it by one side. The UN is simply the medium for the story in this instance, unlike, for example, in the case of the school where civilians died. There, UN staff were on the ground and gave first-hand accounts of what they saw.

You’re making youself look like a berk over this. I understand your desperation to lend extra credence to any story that casts Israel as the villain, but you shouldn’t let that interfere with your faculties.

Harry, they’re all true, particularly 2 in order not to offend sensitivities. And some think that Jews deserve it. And as Chirac put it, they’re aren’t many Jewish votes

Harry
Thanks for your support. Just to clarify, I don’t think Mel makes stuff up, I just don’t think she scrutinises her sources when they happen to chime with her worldview. However, having been too quick to shoot my mouth in this case, I could justifiably be accused of standing outside my greenhouse, half-brick in hand…

Mediocrityblog, if you want to call me a name, call it me. If you want to cite something I’ve written that’s beyond the pale, do it. Otherwise take the Ladybird guide to Freud you got for Christmas elsewhere. Possibly the same place you took your “Martin Jacques: Tankie” one.

Mike S,

I have no problems expressing my views.

I think you are slow, occasionally dim and rather rigid in your views, but whether or not you have a chip on your shoulder about the existence of Jews remains to be seen.

So I’m stupid, and might be racist, but you’re not quite sure. Well, at least you’re saying what you think, in the loosest possible sense of the word.