Harry’s Place

The reference to Armenians is indicative of the deep racism of Turkish society. I haven’t been, but my father used to go on business trips quite a lot at one time, and came back with graphic descriptions of this insular society’s racism.

Erdogan is an Islamist through and through. He is slowly turning back Kemalist reforms and is presntly stacking the country’s Supreme Court with his islamist cronies.

And imagine a Turk complaining about mass killings!

I can certainly understand the anxiety of the country’s Jews

The Turks will wake soon with a hangover from their giving in to Jew hatred.

Looks like Venezuela’s Chavez already has one:

“A week after expelling Israeli officials over Gaza op, Venezuela looks to repair ties ”

By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055143.html

Israel should wait till Chavez is thrown out of power before they mend ties with this hapless country.

Israel should wait till Chavez is thrown out of power before they mend ties with this hapless country. - Sabato

And over in Cuba they joke:
Q: What are the best successes under Castro?
A: Sports & Medicine

Q: What are the worst failures?
A: Breakfast,Lunch & Dinner

That story is BS, it is Israel that is desperate for ties, not us.

In 06 we recalled the ambassador, they did the same, but after the war they sent him back, we did not. Unheard off since it lacked reciprocation, even delayed reciprocation

Today the Israeli ambassador was kicked out. They could only expel the chargés d’affaires and I still don’t remember them doing so.

About the only thing I find surprising in this report is that there are Jews remaining in Turkey. How many times must history repeat itself before they get the message?

But it’s not just Turkey. From what I’ve here and elsewhere, absolutely no one seems to feel any shame at openly expressing anti-Semitism in Europe; even more so, people at rallies go out of their way to invoke Hitler and Nazis, either by saying Hitler didn’t go far enough or comparing Jews to Nazis. And yet, Jews remain in Europe. I just don’t understand why. What are they waiting for? Things to blow over?

Granted it’s not all harmony in the U.S., but except for a few demos here and there, there doesn’t seem to be anywhere close a similiar problem in teh U.S.

Would someone (Jewish and from Europe or Turkey) please explain why you remain there? Is it all very much overblown? To read from blogs and news accounts, it seems like Kristalnacht is going to be next week.

I remember being told in an RE class when at school that at the day of judgement, all the Jews would be back in Israel. Don’t know if that is mentioned in the Bible somewhere, but it seems to be the way we are heading.

Turkey’s jews may find that they have to leave, and then we shall hear some stories. If Israel takes them in, and builds settlements in the West Bank to accommodate them, the MSM will have a difficult call to make as to which refugees it supports. I doubt Germany will want them, because they will only be [rather more publicly] be abused by their Turkish “guest workers”. Watch out for the weasel words.

The only positive thing is that this kicks Turkey’s application for EU membership into some very long grass indeed.

I noticed recently that Turkey had bought a batch of the new Israeli assault rifle - the rather interesting Tavor TAR21, a 5.56 x 45 bull-pup - but otherwise conventional - design.

Ostensibly there are reasonable relations between Turkey and Israel at a number of levels.

That said, Turkey being a mainly Muslim country, and Jew hatred being religiously sanctioned in Islam, it’s all too easily for it to rear up at any time at the slightest pretext.

Turkey still has not properly come to terms with the Armenian genocide - and it was a genocide - perpetrated some 90 years back.

When I was in Constantinople for 4 months last year; it was clear that gaining membership of the EU is something of a national obsession. I don’t think that’s a good idea; at least not for a goodly while.

Some simply fabulous looking women though!

In defense of Turkey, the Ottoman Empire provided a haven for the Sephardim expelled from Spain in 1492.

Jews have long ties with Turks on all levels of society, including the classical arts.

A major problem, I think, was revealed a few years ago when it was reported that “Mein Kampf” had become a top seller in Turkey.

I don’t see how the misojudaic propaganda emanating from elsewhere in the Middle East and from Europe can help to have infected Turkish society as well. Films, cartoons and TV programs reach hundreds of millions of people now and this is also true of the ‘net.

Also, an acquaintance of mine visited Turkey frequently for her textile business. The country people - village weavers - expressed dismay at US support for Israel during Intifada II.

Apparently the Israeli point of view isn’t articulated clearly in Turkey but then it doesn’t seem to be well understood in Europe or the rest of the Middle East either. And meanwhile images of violence flash around the world at light speed unaccompanied by context and frequently with false and hateful verbiage including outright lies.

I pray that people get a grip in the coming weeks and seek to ask why violence against Israel has continued for so long, and try to find it in their hearts to understand that no nation should be forced to submit to constant terrorism and threats of extermination without responding.

I would also like these fine supporters of non-violence to ask themselves why they support terrorist organizations who target civilians, indoctrinate their children to hate and seek to destroy a state comprised of several million human beings.

Meanwhile the point about mass killings in the Middle East is well taken. Not only the Armenians but the Assyrians were killed in the hundreds of thousands and of course the ill-advised (British inspired) Greek invasion of Turkey in 1920 resulted in the burning of Greek cities in Asia Minor as well as the mass expulsion of all Greek speaking citizens.

The Greeks threw out all the Muslims too - yet this example of “population transfer” isn’t well known historically whereas the Israeli War of Independence - not started by Israel in any case - and not a deliberate case of “ethnic cleansing” except by the Arab Legion which cleared the West Bank and East Jerusalem of every single Jew - remains a casus belli to this day.

Most disturbingly the gross antisemitism resulting in the Shoah and making Israel an absolute necessity has never died. It was just politically incorrect for awhile. Now it’s blatant and it’s terrifying to me; people are losing their reason.

I do think the EU and other European institutions, including NGO’s and political parties, it they have any influence or any honor, need to start at home.

It’s pointless to condemn Middle Eastern states for preaching “The Protocols” and buying large numbers of “Mein Kampf” when the hatred that produced those ghastly documents was born in Europe and is all too visible there to this day - even after the near destruction of the European Jewish community.

How can Turkey, a country who killed over a million Armenians and are in the process of destroying the remnants of the Kurds, criticize Israel. Their arrogance and hypocrisy is breathtaking.

haha - that link (which I’ve deleted) is how Jewdas harvested all those email addresses to send out that fake email from the Board of Deputies “cancelling” last Sunday’s demo in Trafalgar Sq.

What does the link say? You got to keep trying, heavy traffic.

No remarks from Penny Pemberton saying the Turkish Jews had it coming? Looks like the “pruning” is working.

Shame about this. I too have enjoyed my trips to Turkey, and it gave me great hope that the madness infecting some portion of the Arab/Muslim population could be successfully fought with other societal models. Sad to see Turkey succumbing to the infection.

David T:
You mean it`s a fake?

Damn!!

The last time I visited Turkey I was depressed to come across a book stall selling Henry Ford’s “International Jew” within half an hour of arriving. The protocols is also widely available.

the hatred that produced those ghastly documents was born in Europe

Not exactly “born” in Europe, but certainly promoted. There is a very long Christian narrative that goes right back to the Gospels (cannot remember which one in particular) blaming the Jews in perpetuity for the death of Jesus. But the Muslim narrative expresses not just blame and disdain, but murderous hatred. Hitler took his own resentment at losing WW1, mixed it with dislike of some of the communist insurrections in Europe after WW1 (in which Jews were significant players), and large chunks of Islam.

Whereas Europe (and Germany in particular) has largely shown contrition for its horrific past, and even at the height of WW2 concealed much of what was going on out of shame, the Arabs put their jew hatred right up front. The Nazis stimulated this trend, but it was already well in train in the 1920s, and particularly promoted by Al Hosseini in Palestine in the 1930s.

It’s pointless to condemn Middle Eastern states for preaching “The Protocols” and buying large numbers of “Mein Kampf” when the hatred that produced those ghastly documents was born in Europe and is all too visible there to this day - even after the near destruction of the European Jewish community.

Why it is pointless? The inhabitants of the ME are not automatons. On the one hand, we are asked to sympathize with their humanity, but also asked to excuse their behavior. Either they are adults or they are not. The state isn’t forcing them to buy the Protocols or name children after Hitler. They do this willingly and in full light of what it means.

As for Turkey, I’ve never visited it, but am not surprised.

Whatever one thinks about them, Europe and the Europeans in general know what a good business is. After all, in less than a century they have exchanged most of their Jews for Muslims — at a ratio of 1:10.

As I undestand it, it seems that most of those Jews were very bad Europeans while all members, without exception, of this new (and, luckily, growing) minority have been, are and will be exemplary, law-abiding and productive citizens of a modern, liberal, peaceful, democratic and secular Europe. Now the last steps are being taken to make the whole continent completely judenrein in order to accomodate its brave new dwellers. I don’t think there’ll real happiness in the continent before the last synagogue has been converted into a peace-loving mosque.

And all of this, of course, proves that, as any rational being knows, it was a huge mistake for the Jews to create Israel, not the opposite, i.e., that the country should have been created at least half a century earlier.

The last time I visited Turkey I was depressed to come across a book stall selling Henry Ford’s “International Jew” within half an hour of arriving. The protocols is also widely available.

So is Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s ‘Infidel’….labelled as ‘Kaffir’, as well as Dawkins’ ‘The God Delusion’, both of which I saw showcased in a bookshops in Constantinople - both at Istanya and at Kanyon.

Mind you, Richard Dawkins’ website has been blocked in Turkey, as was/ is You Tube.

Erdogan:

“My words are less harsh than IDF’s white phosphorus…”

& in the same breath he blames

“Jewish influenced media” for “unfounded reports on Gaza.”

This is beyond irony.

Well, the Russians are finally here:

A Russian naval task force led by aircraft carrier docks at Syrian port
January 13, 2009, 2:35 PM (GMT+02:00)

The force, which includes the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier, the Admiral Levchenko destroyer and the Nikolay Chiker salvage tug, was due to call in at the Syrian port of Tartus Monday, Jan. 12 after carrying out joint exercises with the Turkish navy last week.

DEBKAfile’s military sources report that the arrival of the Russian flotilla in wartime is unusual and especially significant given Syria’s role as one of the staunchest backers of Hamas which is embroiled in a war against Israel further down the coast in Gaza.

Our sources believe Moscow may be signaling its disapproval of Israel’s military operation in the Gaza Strip.

Warning: Debka is a Jewish site and may not be proper viewing for some

presumably the author of the piece above would have disapproved of public gestures of respect for the victims of 9/11, and written a long post about the ‘manipulation of children’. Or not?

In defense of Turkey, the Ottoman Empire provided a haven for the Sephardim expelled from Spain in 1492.

SOPHIA

Whereas Western Europe has accepted relatively comparably numbers of asylum seekers, including Muslims and Turkish, last century, as well as plain economic migrants. It’s the very definition of faint praise to state that five centuries country A was more enlightened in certain ways than country B when discussing contemporary events.

At least you’re not attempting to shut down debate by referring to European antisemitic literature which is condemned in equal measure… oh wait.

It’s been done to death on this site that, in historical terms, Christians in Muslim states could be seen as having represented a fifth column whilst Jews, as the principle religious minority in Christian Europe, received the full force of distrust; and that the Ottoman Empire inherited much of the old Roman legal structures whilst Christian Europe started afresh after the dark ages and seized the opportunity to legislate against Jews.

presumably the author of the piece above would have disapproved of public gestures of respect for the victims of 9/11, and written a long post about the ‘manipulation of children’. Or not?

You failed the viva didn’t you?

presumably the (former?)-SWP author of the deranged comment @ 7:32 pm would have disapproved about the public gestures of respect for the perps of 911 and written a long post about the manipulation of children

Flanker

“That story is BS, it is Israel that is desperate for ties, not us.”

Wishful thinking, and who is us, Limey?

In defense of Turkey, the Ottoman Empire provided a haven for the Sephardim expelled from Spain in 1492.

Sophia, out of curiousity were you aware of the ethnic cleansing of the 8000 Jews of Yaffo perpetrated by the Ottomans during WW1?

presumably the author of the piece above would have disapproved of public gestures of respect for the victims of 9/11, and written a long post about the ‘manipulation of children’. Or not?

I hope they never ban you, you’re so funny John.

A minute’s silence for civillian victims is hardly anti-semitism. And the other examples mentioned are petty. The anti-US demonstrations around the world before/during the Iraq invasion were racist? No. Grow up.

About the only thing I find surprising in this report is that there are Jews remaining in Turkey. How many times must history repeat itself before they get the message?

Would someone (Jewish and from Europe or Turkey) please explain why you remain there? Is it all very much overblown? To read from blogs and news accounts, it seems like Kristalnacht is going to be next week.

Perhaps it’s time for the US to open up its borders to Jewish refugees from Europe.

A minute’s silence for civillian victims is hardly anti-semitism. And the other examples mentioned are petty. The anti-US demonstrations around the world before/during the Iraq invasion were racist? No. Grow up.

Perhaps it’s the threats and attacks on Jews that is anti-semitic, a fact that you conveniently ignored.

Grow up.

I happen to know lots of British Turks and they are as well integrated as any ethnic minority I know and as anyone who’s been through Manor House or any part of Hackney will tell you, Turks are a common sight in London. I’ve never heard the ones I know use anti-Semitic language, but they don’t seem to like black people very much.

That said, there has been a fair amount of bother with Turkish Kurds in London and Turkish gangsters in general, and I certainly don’t relish the idea of another 1 (2, 3+?) million emigrating when Turkey inevitably joins the EU. It seems to me that Erdogan’s remarks plus his diplomatic ’shuttle-shilling’ at the start of Cast Lead are just more evidence that Turkey and the UK are not compatible.

The Turkish issue for me seems to sum up the EU: many people deep down (perhaps the Germans most of all) know that Turkey is incompatible with the values of Western European democracies, yet everybody knows, because this is how the EU works, Turkey will eventually join. It’s a done job and there will be no democratic mandate for it when it happens. The important thing is that a core mass of ‘progressives’ and EU gravy-trainers who advocate global labour arbitrage want Turkey to join and they simply don’t give a monkey’s about democracy or national borders or anything past their own noses really.

“Threats and attacks” on Jews (were any attacks mentioned in the OP?) are not uncommon. Nor are threats and attacks” on many other racial/religious groups in many countries. Bad? Of course. “Antisemitism roars”? Hysterical nonsense of the sort that has overwhelmed HP since the Gaza invasion began.

A major problem, I think, was revealed a few years ago when it was reported that “Mein Kampf” had become a top seller in Turkey.

Why do I think that this is pure fiction? Cos I’ve heard the same thing said about Egypt and it doesn’t bear scrutiny.

I’m not saying that anti-Semitic publications aren’t readily available in Islambul, or Cairo for that matter, just not quite as readily as you’d ‘like’ them to be.

“Threats and attacks” on Jews (were any attacks mentioned in the OP?) are not uncommon. Nor are threats and attacks” on many other racial/religious groups in many countries. Bad? Of course. “Antisemitism roars”? Hysterical nonsense of the sort that has overwhelmed HP since the Gaza invasion began.

Did you not read what you commented on?

On the streets the people are writing such graffiti as: “Kill Jews”… The week-end before, some people wrote, “We will kill you” on the door of one of the biggest synagogues in Izmir resulted in the closing down of synagogues. Near Istanbul University, a group put a huge poster on the door of a shop owned by a Jew: “Do not buy from here, since this shop is owned by a Jew.” A group put posters on his wall saying that: “Jews and Armenians are not allowed but dogs are allowed.” Some young people are even threatening others with violence if they are seen as pro-Israel in social networking websites such as Facebook and Hi5.

Erdogan said some media, which he did not name, were spreading false information about the Gaza offensive. “Excuses are found for mass killings of children at schools, hospitals and mosques, especially by Jewish-backed media,” Erdogan said.

The point is that innocent Jews in many countries are being attacked by Muslims and the justification is a war in a far away land.

johng, no, I don’t disapprove of kids standing in respect for the victims of 9/11. those who died on 9/11 were the victims of an unprovoked attack which came without warning. kids in new york and washington who stand in remembrance could conceivably have been among the dead had they been in the wrong place at the wrong time. And when they stand, they are not told that Islam is evil or that all Muslims are responsible for what happened - unlike in Turkey, where the sole purpose of this exercise is to demonize Israel.

and i don’t disapprove of kids standing in respect for the veterans of two world wars. in the US and Europe, it’s largely thanks to the sacrifices of those veterans that they enjoy the freedom they do.

If kids in East Timor stand in remembrance of the genocide committed by the Indonesians, I have no objection. Ditto kids in Cambodia for Pol Pot’s victims. Ditto kids in Israel standing to remember the Shoah - though the ones in the south may have to dive quickly if a Hamas missile comes sailing in at the same time.

I do object to the Turkish education ministry imposing Hamas’s narrative on their own kids, pushing the message that Israel and Zionism are evil.

if they wanted a minute’s silence to remember the victims on both sides, without the poisonous politics, that would probably be ok in my book. Though I would wonder why they didn’t just stand to remember the innocents in all wars. You know, wars like Darfur or Congo or Sri Lanka…the ones the Hamas cheerleaders posturing through London and Amsterdam and Paris and elsewhere don’t give a damn about.

It’s pointless to condemn Middle Eastern states for preaching “The Protocols” and buying large numbers of “Mein Kampf” when the hatred that produced those ghastly documents was born in Europe…

If Judaism originated in the Middle East and Islam (c.610) was born in Mecca, how could Europeans have ‘given birth’ to ‘the hatred that produced those ghastly documents’? Weren’t the Protocols a Russian forgery?

By “attack” I assumed you meant physically. Everything you’ve mentioned falls under freedom of speech in the US. Do a quick google for “kike” or even “kill kikes” and you’ll find most of the sites using it are American.

Look, I agree that the Gaza invasion is helping anti-semitism. Israel must have taken this into account before beginning the blitzkreig. It was a calculated risk, surely. And they know that on January 20th it will all stop.

For the record, I AGREE that Israel needed to do something about Hamas, and I acknowledge that realpolitik dictated that it had to happen before Obama was sworn in. I agree that while distressing, the civillian casualties are not really terribly high in number givern the circumstances.

What I’m complaining about is the lack of prspective and silly partisanship displayed by so many on this blog, which was hitherto an intelligent place.

A Turkish Jew’s rendering of Niemoller’s poem:

They came first for the Armenians — and I said nothing because I’m not an Armenian.

Then they came for the Greeks — and I didn’t speak up because I’m not a Greek.

Then they came for the Kurds — and I remained quiet because I’m not a Kurd.

Now they come for me — I always said they were a bunch of antisemites!!!

Think of England - thank you for your concern. In my eyes what is happening in Europe now is pretty scary. I think it’s different from other sporadic anti-semitic incidents in the past. Bear in mind that some of the elements fanning the flames have increaced their support base significantly in recent years. There is also a resounding silence on the part of the government and police, here in the UK at least , which in my opinion is giving silent legitimacy to the ugly atmosphere on the streets. And let’s not forget the media- which for the most part is whipping up fervour further. (channel 4 news tonight as an example). God forbid that anyone should get hurt, but if they do, will all or any of the above take any responsibility for the atmosphere they have created?
Why are we still here you ask? Personally I’m only here because 2 of my children are at university here and have to complete their studies before we can go back home to safety in Israel. I’ve paid a hell of a lot of money to have my kids harassed by the PSC/SWP alliance in some of the finest universities in the country!
BTW- I see the Red Cross have withdrawn their allegations re. phosphorous. Can’t wait to see that splashed across the headlines tomorrow morning.

By “attack” I assumed you meant physically. Everything you’ve mentioned falls under freedom of speech in the US. Do a quick google for “kike” or even “kill kikes” and you’ll find most of the sites using it are American.

What I’m complaining about is the lack of prspective and silly partisanship displayed by so many on this blog, which was hitherto an intelligent place.

There are physical assaults occuring in many European countries against Jews by Muslims. I find it extraordinary that you consider threatening to murder and inciting racial hatred “free speech”. Not many would agree with you, least of all judges, the police or any intelligent person.

“Education should promote intercultural skills, democratic values, the respect of fundamental rights and the fight against discrimination, equipping all young people to interact positively with their peers from diverse backgrounds.”

Of course the Turkish directive doesn’t square with this but the language of the EU directive is chilling: am I the only one that thinks it reeks of re-education camps, cultural hegemony and warped thinking? Isn’t education supposed to be about teaching and learning subjects like Latin, Chemistry and History? Thank God I left school before all this dross entered the curriculum.

If the EU and its proxies at Westminster stopped droning on about ‘rights’, ‘diversity’, ‘enrichment’ and suchlike, and concentrated on educating children in the Enlightenment tradition, there wouldn’t be any need for Diversity inc. quangos, sensitivity seminars or anti-Semitism investigators…cos there’d be no discrimination: people wouldn’t have a heightened sense of their own physical differences and we’d all be a lot happier.

Israeli Nurse, d’you have a link re Red Cross? Not doubting you, like.

Israelnurse: Are your kids harrassed by PSC/SWP? Do they regret being in England? I know that universities are usually rather overheated places anyway. But what I see from a great distance is that it has become quite OK to be openly anti-Semitic in Europe and England. England has a long history of Jew-hating to its shame. Shalom Lappin has an excellent (several really) on this topic, like here, for example, so the present indulgence of anti-Semitic outburst by authorities does not surprise me. It should be a time of shame for England and Europe in general, to see this happening on their streets, yet, I see no sign of shame at all.

That anti-semitic indicidents happen in Ireland doesn’t surprise me much, since they didn’t feel any need to join the fight against Hitler. That this is occuring in Turkey only confirms my long held suspicions that it is just like every other Muslim country.

Threatening murder is, in some circumstances, protected by freedom of speech.

I repeat, ugly though it is, the anti-semitic backlash (which is a tiny part of the anti-Israel backlash) was entirely predictable and presumably the Israeli government considered it to be an acceptable risk.They have considerable experience in managing this sort of thing.

As I said, I accept that Israel is broadly justified in doing what it is doing. What I DON’T accept is that intelligent people are suddenly surprised and shocked that it creates bad PR for Israel and Jews.

Alec: Try this regarding the Red Cross.

Alec - it was on ynet news a few minutes ago.

Threatening murder is, in some circumstances, protected by freedom of speech.

As I said, I accept that Israel is broadly justified in doing what it is doing. What I DON’T accept is that intelligent people are suddenly surprised and shocked that it creates bad PR for Israel and Jews.

I doubt there are many cases where threatening to murder members of a racial or religious minority is permitted.

I don’t see why Israel should worry about Jews abroad: surely that is the responsibility of the countries in which Jews reside, and it would be a damning indictment against those countries where attacks occur. Israel should be concerned with its own citizens. I agree there may be a moral respnsibilty with Jews abroad, but not a military or political obligation.

Quite why Jews wholly unconnected to any conflict are suffering attacks highlights the racist ideology of the perpetrators, and is in no way the fault of the Jews themselves or Israel.

Ta’, Think. Alas, I am going to object to a statement of yers.

since they didn’t feel any need to join the fight against Hitler.

Approximately 50,000 citizens of the Irish Free State volunteered to fight with the British military. This does not deny the collusion of elements in the I.R.A., notably Eoin O’Duffy (something anyone talking of Shamir’s overtures towards Hitler pre-1942 should consider).

Just a note about tolerance in the U.S. vs Europe. I work in NYC. I see (both in NYC and other places in the U.S.) religious Jews in religous garb (I am not one of them). On occasion, you read about some harrassment, but it doesn’t seem to be very much. LA has seen a huge resurgence in Orthodox Jewish activity; NY as well. Of course, upstate NY has some very Jewish (ie., Hasidic) areas. But, I see observant Muslims in NY all the time, including cab drivers praying openly on rugs the street and no one (apart from tourists) paying them any mind, at least obviously.

The U.S. is not the Garden of Eden, but I doubt overtly and identifiable Jews could live so openly throughout Europe, despite its high opinion of itself. Am I wrong in this?

Perhaps it’s because the US doesn’t worry about “community cohesion”, whatever that means (it sounds very Orwellian) and leaves such matters to the individual. We are not required to respect each other or like each other. Just leave eachother alone.

Alec: You are correct; I meant the country, not its citizens.

Having spent some time in Turkey in the early 70s all of this seems like another world and very sad. It is the Turkey of the
late 60s, early 70s that those promoting Turkey for the EU remember, not it’s current incarnation. Nations can often change radically–and not for the better. The common conceit post-WWII was that most held that “every day, in every way, things are getting better and better.” Looking back, it is easy to see how simplistic, how suicidally naive this belief in unbridled progress really was. And it wasn’t as if there weren’t recent examples even in those times within the lifetimes of many to suggest otherwise. During WWI Japan had been a shining example of strict adherence to the rules of War and ethical treatment of prisoners, taking just one example that comes to mind. Yet by WWII it’s society and military had degenerated to the point of performing vivisection on live prisoners of war without anaesthetics. So it is today not only with Turkey but all of Europe, really. There is a post up on Gates of Vienna by Lars Hedegaard about the current Palestinian sympathy demonstrations in Denmark entitled: “It’s 1932 in Europe.”
Sad to say, even a superficial perusal of the newspapers and the blogosphere would seem to indicate this is only a mild exaggeration–if at all. Amazing how quickly things can go south
in a given society and the veneer of polite, mannered, reasoned discourse stripped away in a hurry.

But the worst of it all is the craven response of officialdom. Whether it be the half-hearted attempts to provide protection to Jews and Jewish sites by the police while ignoring not only vile but illegal threats–not to mention real actions–made against Jews; or the public pronouncements of politicians attempting to seem “even-handed” by cautioning against anti-Moslem activities (of which there is precious little) in the same breath that they condemn–when the bestir themselves to do so–the very real violence done by Moslems and their supporters.

All very sad–all very pathetic. Between the idiotic energy polices of Britain and the EU and the cold on the one hand, and the resurrection of general antisemitism and the rise of Moslem militancy on the other, it looks as if the lights will be going out all over Europe in more ways–and for more reasons–than one in the near future.

Many in the west were very complacest about the emergence and success of “moderate” or “mild” Islamism in Turkey, including many who should have known better - for example The Economist.

It should now be clear that Turkish secularists, who have been widely labelled as alarmist and “crying wolf” over the growth of Turkish Islamism, have been at least partly right.

Now, the old secularist authoritarian right in Turkey are intrisnically not much better, and in some ways worse. However, they were not alligned with a world-wide anti-western philosophy. What is becoming increasingly clear is that Turkish “mild” Islamism is part of that spectrum of anti-westeriem, and not part of a bulwark against it.

hasbarabuster:

Hate much?

You’re really despicable.

Liberty if it means anything is the right for you not to have to pay taxes, most particularly to pay taxes towards the upkeep of a foreign state who is not your friend. Liberty: little or no taxation, ergo Israel (& Egypt and everyone else) should pay their own way

Imam Badr ud-Deen al-Huthi - “many people deep down (perhaps the Germans most of all) know that Turkey is incompatible with the values of Western European democracies”

This comment struck me as ironic. What are the values of the WE democracies? They have no less anti-Semitism than Turkey, and both can boast a major genocide, though in sheer numbers Germany and Russia, separately and combined take the prize. And only 60 years ago…

The U.S. is not the Garden of Eden, but I doubt overtly and identifiable Jews could live so openly throughout Europe, despite its high opinion of itself.

Looking at the FBI figures for hate crimes in 2007, it’s very notable that crimes against Jews (for being Jews) considerably out-number crimes against Muslims (for being Muslims). All figures are remarkably low, considering. And this despite years of warfare against Islamists, and the howls of the Left. See here.

I think the best way to combat this fascism in Turkey is to let it into the EU. This way the Islamofascists will be restrained and will not be able to get too powerful.

Johng,

I don’t know why I bother writing since you are always too cowardly to respond to any of the questions you ask but,

a) I do not recall, as a teacher at the time, there having been any directives ‘from on high’ that pupils stand in silence for the victims of 9/11. It was a largely spontaneous practice that spread by imitation. As far as I know, there were no such directives at the time in the US either (as an aside, I recall from the contemporary edition of Race Traitor Noel Ignatiev’s proudly refusing to ask his grad students to keep any kind of silence).

So much you know of teaching in British primary or secondary schools.

b) it was not treated as an occasion to identify with America as a party in any conflict with another party, let alone enforce such identification on pain of any kind of disability.

Israel-Hamas is an existential conflict in which there are two parties. No British government would force identification of pupils with one side or another. It would be very divisive, setting, for instance, Jewish children against Muslim children.

What you say rather suggests, however, that that kind of totalitarian enforcement of political or national identification is rather the social engineering your academic genius has in mind.

And given the orgy of anti-Zionist Socialism of Foolishness your chums Seymour et al. have fallen into the trap of indulging, it scarcely surprises one that you have chosen to ignore the fact of the rise of Turkish Islamic antisemitism, just as you have chosen to ignore it in any of your Arab nationalist or Islamicist allies, just so long as it furthers the desired end, the dissolution of the Jewish state of Israel.

Well, I have to return to my PhD. Good luck with yours.

I think the best way to combat this fascism in Turkey is to let it into the EU. This way the Islamofascists will be restrained and will not be able to get too powerful.

And they will be restrained by … ?

Threatening murder is, in some circumstances, protected by freedom of speech.

Not in this country, it isn’t.

I repeat, ugly though it is, the anti-semitic backlash (which is a tiny part of the anti-Israel backlash)

Cloud cuckoo-land stuff. The anti-Israel hatred (it’s not a ‘backlash’ to anything) is entirely antisemitic. No other country has widespread racist demonstrations against it, even when it commits huge atrocities such as Russia in Chechnya or Sudan in Darfur etc etc.

Liberty if it means anything is the right for you not to have to pay taxes, most particularly to pay taxes towards the upkeep of a foreign state who is not your friend

The second part of your statement shows just what sort of special pleading the first part is. Either you genuinely believe that no taxes should be paid at all - in which case you are in favour of total anarchy and dissolution of society and going back to the Stone Age (and then you would have no reason to single out ‘taxes towards the upkeep of a foreign state’) - or you simply want to pick and choose which taxes you want to pay, and the first part is hypocrisy.

Threatening murder is, in some circumstances, protected by freedom of speech.

Did someone actually say that in this thread?

“Antisemitism roars”? Hysterical nonsense of the sort that has overwhelmed HP since the Gaza invasion began.

You have not read any of the resports on the riots and incitement in London, have you?
Grow up.

“Antisemitism roars”? Hysterical nonsense of the sort that has overwhelmed HP since the Gaza invasion began.

You have not read any of the reports on the riots and incitement in London, have you?
Grow up.

Yes, it was posted by antish. Quelle surprise.

Approximately 50,000 citizens of the Irish Free State volunteered to fight with the British military

We are talking about the government, not individuals.

The anti-Israel hatred (it’s not a ‘backlash’ to anything) is entirely antisemitic. No other country has widespread racist demonstrations against it

It’s a two-way street. Israel is the only country that receives immense press coverage when it suffers relatively light terrorist attacks. For instance, when on March 6, 2008, eight Jews were murdered at a Jerusalem yeshiva, it made headlines all over the world. On the other hand, when on June 6, 2008, twenty-one Sinhalese were killed by the Tamil Tigers, no one ever learned. See here for the links and photos of newspaper covers.

Israel gets more attention when it’s the victim; it’s only logical that it will also get more attention when it’s the victimizer. No antisemitism there.

“… I’m not saying that anti-Semitic publications aren’t readily available …”

Some years ago I was staying in Pune, India on business and remember reading in the local paper a detailed description of how Mein Kampf and other such publications were hot-sellers in Turkey.

As a confirmed booklover, I later made my way to the city’s main bookstore and found there massive piles of the very same Mein Kampf. In addition there were many copies of the biography of Bose, the anti-British Indian nationalist who sided with Japan during WW2.

I am amused by the indignant references to Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide. They are supposed to prove that Erdogan’s anti-Semitism is just the latest incident of Turkish racism and brutality. It demonstrates once again to me what a den of ignorance this website is.

The Independent (London), April 18, 2001, Wednesday

PERES STANDS ACCUSED OVER DENIAL OF ‘MEANINGLESS’ ARMENIAN HOLOCAUST

ONE OF Israel’s leading scholars of the Jewish Holocaust has angrily compared the country’s Nobel prize-winning Foreign Minister, Shimon Peres, to a holocaust denier after an interview in which Mr Peres made the astonishing claim that the Armenians - 1.5 million of whom were slaughtered by Ottoman Turks in 1915 - never experienced a genocide.

Mr Peres’ statement appeared in the Turkish Daily News prior to a recent state visit to Turkey; the paper says he went so far as to refer to the Armenian account of the mass slaughter as “meaningless”.

Israel Charny, the editor of the distinguished new two-volume Encyclopedia of Genocide, has written to Mr Peres, expressing his shame at the remarks and accusing Mr Peres of going “beyond a moral boundary that no Jew should allow himself to trespass”.

Dr Charny, who is also executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, has reminded the Foreign Minister that Israeli academics signed a public declaration at a recent holocaust conference in Philadelphia stating that the Armenian genocide was factual.

To the fury of Armenians, and of Dr Charny, Turkey is funding a worldwide campaign to deny the facts of the Armenian holocaust which was unleashed by Ottoman rulers against Turkey’s Christian minority in the First World War. Tens of thousands of Armenian men were executed by Turkish forces in 1915, and their families deported to the Syrian desert where they were systematically plundered, raped and butchered by Turkish gendarmes and marauding Kurds.

At the time, the British Foreign Office denounced the Armenian holocaust (Winston Churchill first used the word about the Armenians) although today’s British Government, apparently fearing Turkish displeasure, initially tried to prevent Armenian participation in this year’s Holocaust Memorial Day.

Dr Charny, who devotes 45 pages of detailed factual evidence and copies of documents on the Armenian holocaust in his encyclopedia, was among those Israeli historians who refused to give in to Israeli Foreign Ministry pressure when Turkey objected to the inclusion of the Armenian slaughter in a 1982 holocaust conference in Tel Aviv. Dr Charny says Mr Peres telephoned him then, urging him “not to insist on including the subject of the Armenians”.

When Adolf Hitler was preparing the Nazi extermination of Europe’s Jews, he asked his Wehrmacht generals if the world any longer remembered the Armenian genocide; but Israel has often adopted an ambiguous attitude towards the 20th century’s first holocaust.

Unwilling to antagonise its present-day Turkish ally - and in some cases unwilling to compare Armenian suffering with that of European Jewry - the Israeli Foreign Office persuaded the Jewish Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel to withdraw from the 1982 conference’s debates on the Armenians.

In Dr Charny’s unprecedented letter to Mr Peres, he says: “It seems that because of your wishes to advance very important relations with Turkey, you have been prepared to circumvent the subject of the Armenian genocide in 1915 -1920 … it may be that in your broad perspective of the needs of the state of Israel, it is your obligation to circumvent and desist from bringing up the subject with Turkey, but, as a Jew and an Israeli, I am ashamed of the extent to which you have now entered into the range of actual denial of the Armenian genocide, comparable to denials of the Holocaust.”

The Turkish newspaper states Mr Peres said Israel should not determine a “philosophical position” on the Armenian holocaust. “We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide.”

If Mr Peres has been quoted accurately - and he has made no attempt to correct the newspaper - his remarks will deeply offend millions of Armenians. It is standard Turkish policy to refer with contempt to Armenian suffering as “allegations” and to downgrade the Armenian holocaust as a mere “tragedy”. To the relief of the millions of Armenians descendants of the 1915 bloodbath, Dr Charny has never wavered. His encyclopedia states bluntly that both the Armenian and Jewish genocides were the products of state-initiated policies. “The Armenian genocide occurred under the circumstances of the Turkish revolution and the First World War,” it says, “while the (Jewish) Holocaust was a product of the Nazi revolution and the Second World War.”

Turkey maintains, despite US diplomatic evidence at the time, that the Armenians were mere victims of a “civil war”. An American diplomat, Leslie Davis, the US consul at Harput, saw the bodies of thousands of Armenians in the Turkish countryside in 1915, many of them knifed to death. “A massacre, however horrible the word may sound, would be humane in comparison,” he wrote.

“Turkish school students stood for a minute of silence at 11:00 a.m. (0900 GMT) in accordance with a direction issued by Education Minister Huseyin Celik. ‘This show of respect damns not only the cruelty in the Palestine, but also shows solidarity with the Palestinian people,’ the directive said.”

Simple question: Would you have objected if the children had been asked express solidarity with Sderot?

No, of course not.

I guess its deeply objectionable when children are asked to express solidarity with others threatened by frightening weapons, or at least think about the situation - but only if those weapons are aimed at the enemy.
War and violence and terror is terrible, awful, disgusting, when your side feel it; indeed, solidarity is welcomed, thank you for your concern, much appreciated from all, carry round the collection boxes.

But woe betide it if the other lot do the same thing - why, that’s shocking. That they should feel the same way about human suffering? I tell you, that just aint right!

“Simple question: Would you have objected if the children had been asked express solidarity with Sderot?

No, of course not.”

Well, I would. I don’t think children should be politicised or exposed to things they can’t possibly understand. I could sort of understand it happening possibly in a religion school, but not in a state school. If I was a parent and found out that my kids were being told to stand for a minute in support of one side of an ongoing conflict, then I would be concerned. I don’t care if it’s Israelis or Palestinians, no state is going to force my (nonexistent) children to support one side in a conflict which they do not understand.

For me, the main issue is that raging anti-Semitism where mobs scream obscenities at Jews as Jews and invoke Hitlerian symbols with barely a squeak at best from governments, or in some cases their active participation (as in Holland where a Dutch MP joined in the chorus) indicates that Jew hatred is entering a new stage in Europe and Turkey, one from which I, at least, cannot see how it can return. Perhaps it can; perhaps news reports make overly much; perhaps reading about it from afar makes it seem worse than it is (how can that be?).

Perhaps not now, perhaps not in five years, but at this rate, in ten years at most, governments in Europe will reflect the will of the people (at least the Muslim section of the population they seem so eager to cater to) and the life of the European Jew will be a very uncomfortable one, looking more like Iranian or Yemeni Jews, relegated to the fringes of society and fair game for all.

Then again, outside events can always shove things down wholly different paths. Perhaps an asteroid will crash into Mecca and do the world some good.

“Think Of England” says,
….But, I see observant Muslims in NY all the time, including cab drivers praying openly on rugs the street …….

Muslim countries like Indonesia/Malaysia seem to be much better - you don`t see that there.

Ma’an News Service… is the latest Zionist Enity’s tool?!?!? I’m afraid not, not this time children! Grow up kiddies. What makes you think you know better than the people victimized by Hamas? Will your invention of facts, your blatant falsification of history, change the truth. Why not just recognize the reality of the situation? Why not recognize that if Hamas ceases to exist and a new government takes over (one that is really interested in bettering the plight of the average Gaza inhabitant) and uses western aid to build infrastructure, invests in business and industry instead of smuggling tunnels or in missiles and assorted explosives, there will truly be peace! It takes real men to recognize the truth, some people will swallow their pride and grow up, others will stubbornly cling to their illusions and fashionable sheeple mentality. Pity!

http://www.freedomscost.net/?p=1679

In return for some paltry favours from the Turks circa 1500, some Jews returned the favour by extolling all things Islamic in particular at the expense of Christians. When I was secondary school student in Singapore in the 70s, all the books in the libraries on Islamic architecture or art seemed to have authours named Epstein or Goldstein. Never having been interested in calligraphy or 2- dimensional representations of some bearded fellows I didn’t bother to open them preferring instead to borrow the books with the Botticelli and Titian nudes, with some Carravagio and Giotto to assuage my Catholic guilt after that. And being an Indian I feel funny that the scrupulous Jews who write textbooks ( I am recalling a book on LISP among others) call the modern numeral system Arabic when its clearly Indian in origin. As for those forever extolling Al Kworazmi for algebra, try tackling a modern algebra textbook like Hungerford’s after doing some word problems in the Al Kworazmi mode.

Maimonides’ The Epistle to the Jews of Yemen was written in about 1172 in reply to inquiries by Jacob ben Netan’el al-Fayyūmi, who headed the Jewish community in Yemen. At that time, the Jews of Yemen were experiencing a crisis—hardly unfamiliar to Maimonides—as they were being forced to convert to Islam, a campaign launched in about 1165 by ‘Abd-al-Nabī ibn Mahdi. Maimonides provided the Yemenite Jewish communal leader with guidance, and what encouragement he could muster. The Epistle to the Jews of Yemen provides an unflinchingly honest view of what Maimonides thought of the Muslim prophet Muhammad, or “the Madman” as he calls him, and about Islam generally. Maimonides writes:

http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2007/12/26/maimonides-and-the-%E2%80%9Cmeshugga%E2%80%9D-prophet/

Well, I would.

Fair enough. Its certainly wrong on both sides. But probably inevitable given the emotion on both sides.

A new generation of suspicious people on both sides.

It’s sad isn’t it?

Children are never by nature prejudiced. Stick a load of Palestinian and Israeli children together, and they will get on fine. Well, they will fight, but it won’t on the usual lines.

Its only the adults that hurl missiles at each other.

Its childish to say “Why can’t folk get along?” but its still a question I’ll like to ask sometimes.

Imagine for a world without borders and arms and killing, imagine if that stopped for just for a week, and everyone had a week off work, got in their cars and went to have tea with their “enemy”.

It really would be a fascinating experiment. That’s what they should do.

At least the islamists in Turkey are moderate “evil ones” why not talk and invite them in to the EU. Hardly anybody can point out Armenia on a map anyway these days.

As a confirmed booklover, I later made my way to the city’s main bookstore and found there massive piles of the very same Mein Kampf.

I’ve always wanted to read Mein Kampf, but feared that if I had it on my bookshelf, folk might get the wrong idea.

Benito Mussolini, well known Italian literary critic, claimed that Mein Kampf was “a boring tome that I have never been able to read” and “little more than commonplace clichés.”

Think of England

You shouldn’t see it as purely a Muslim/Jewish thing. The vast majority of Muslims and Jews get on okay - after all, if that was not the case, there would be open warfare on the streets of London.

I’ve lived in Muslim communities in Bradford, and Jewish communities in London. I found them all decent folk really, most of them, the extremists are in a minority.

Max Blumenthal has put up a cheeky video recording the less than savoury views expressed by some (not all) at a pro-Israel demo in NYC.

http://maxblumenthal.com/2009/01/547/

I don’t think any of us have a monopoly on virtue.

“Chain letters,” said the Tyrant. “The Chain Letter to the Ephebians. Forget Your Gods. Be Subjugated. Learn to Fear. Do not break the chain — the last people who did woke up one morning to find fifty thousand armed men on their lawn.”

— (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

Hardly anyone would have been able to do so 100 years ago, Comstock.

What are the values of the WE democracies? They have no less anti-Semitism than Turkey, and both can boast a major genocide, though in sheer numbers…

I beg to differ. The UK, of which I am a citizen, has NEVER taken part in or orchestrated genocide. I assume you must be referring to Nazi Germany and Vichy France. Furthermore, and I’m sure Misha/Hasan Pristina would disagree, anti-Semitism is not part of Anglican Christianity and anti-Semitic sentiment is confined to major conurbations such as London, home to large numbers of Muslims.

“… I’m not saying that anti-Semitic publications aren’t readily available …”

As a confirmed booklover, I later made my way to the city’s main bookstore and found there massive piles of the very same Mein Kampf. In addition there were many copies of the biography of Bose, the anti-British Indian nationalist who sided with Japan during WW2.

Fair enough. I haven’t spent long enough in Turkey to gauge the presence of anti-Semitic tracts. My reflex reaction here was because I had heard someone make the claim before on HP and I queried it then.

You can find the Protocols and Mein Kampf on Cairo streets and in Damascus, but they’re not nearly so prevalent as some people, elsewhere admittedly, have made out.

I stand corrected on Turkey, Ben. Sorry.

The Epistle to the Jews of Yemen was written in about 1172 in reply to inquiries by Jacob ben Netan’el al-Fayyūmi, who headed the Jewish community in Yemen.

Andrew Bostom’s work is normally meticulously researched and I can find no fault with his excellent publications. However, that fellow was Egyptian not Yemeni, so his involvement was either interpolated or at the very least exaggerated.

Hardly anybody can point out Armenia on a map anyway these days.

That sounds a bit like “Who remembers the Armenians now” now who was it who said that? Someone remind me please.

Nearly Oxfordian
13 January 2009, 11:35 pm

BEN: Liberty if it means anything is the right for you not to have to pay taxes, most particularly to pay taxes towards the upkeep of a foreign state who is not your friend

NEARLY OXFORDIAN: The second part of your statement shows just what sort of special pleading the first part is. Either you genuinely believe that no taxes should be paid at all - in which case you are in favour of total anarchy and dissolution of society and going back to the Stone Age (and then you would have no reason to single out ‘taxes towards the upkeep of a foreign state’) - or you simply want to pick and choose which taxes you want to pay, and the first part is hypocrisy.

BEN

Pfft. Not at all.

The more taxation taken from you the less free you are. Taxation directly and indirectly is an ever increasing feature of our modern world. It is bad enough when that taxation is misused in your own country as governments are ill-suited to spending others wealth and all around we can see the welfare detritus created by government decisions. It is much worse though when that same taxation is spent abroad in pursuit of foreign policy goals which given the chance the populace wouldn’t care to contribute to.

Are you really saying an individual has no right to question the level or the distribution of the taxes that they provide?

But the worst of it all is the craven response of officialdom. Whether it be the half-hearted attempts to provide protection to Jews and Jewish sites by the police while ignoring not only vile but illegal threats–not to mention real actions–made against Jews; or the public pronouncements of politicians attempting to seem “even-handed” by cautioning against anti-Moslem activities (of which there is precious little) in the same breath that they condemn–when the bestir themselves to do so–the very real violence done by Moslems and their supporters.

You’re so right.

Recently French authorities convened a meeting between France’s Jewish and Muslim leaders, and in doing so gave the impression that both communities were equally likely to engage in acts of violence.

Synagogues have been firebombed in several cities, and Jews have been at the recieving end of attacks by muslims, and this, long before the curent Israeli operations.

I’m absolutely sick and tired of these lame gestures that aim for ‘balance’ and even handedness, and which do so, not as a means to avoid conflict, but rather as a way of avoiding certain realities.

You know, what are the chances Jews in France would attack mosques and Muslims in the same way that Muslims are attacking synagogues and committing physical attacks on Jews?

We’re at the point where cowardly gestures of denial, on the part of the authorities, are portrayed as courageous actions designed to resolve conflicts.

Last fall a friend of mine sent me a clip of a french news report about the opening of a new Mosque and islamic centre in Lille ( I believe).

The reporter was standing on the street gushing on about how the construction of the mosque and community centre was a triumph of muliculturalism.

I didn’t believer her, though.

I couldn’t believer her.

You see, just above the roof of that mosque one could clearly see the flag of Hezbollah waving in the wind, and the reporter obviously didn’t have a clue what the flag represented.

Celebrate diversity.

Hasbara Buster - have you ever seen a “relatively light terror attack”? How exactly do you define that? Is this to do with the ridiculous proportionality theme yet again?
Having worked in A&E in Israeli hospitals and volunteered with the Israeli ambulance service for many years I can tell you that I have never ever seen a “light” terror attack. I have only seen terror attacks which destroy lives: not only the lives of those murdered, but also of the loved ones left behind, the injured and permanently disabled, the people suffering permanently from PTSD afterwards.
It has nothing to do with numbers - every person killed, maimed or injured is an entire world for his or her family.
I find your flippant attitude thoroughly contemptable.

Who remembers the Armenians now” now who was it who said that? Someone remind me please.

It was Hitler, contemplating the possible consequences of exterminating world Jewry.

Hasbara Buster - have you ever seen a “relatively light terror attack”?

The word “relative” always implies a term of comparison. The 8 deaths in Jerusalem are “light” as compared to the 21 deaths in Sri Lanka.

My observation is that incidents in which the victims are Jewish are much more widely reported on than those in which the victims are from other ethnic groups. I don’t see any Zionist complaining about this, though.

Rockets from the Gaza strip:

Benji.
I’ve always wanted to read Mein Kampf, but feared that if I had it on my bookshelf, folk might get the wrong idea.

It is a bit like Orwell’s “Coming Up for Air!”