Harry’s Place

Good point well made.

Spot on

Spot on.
For any liberal state you must have universal human rights.

So when is Obama going to close Gitmo, Gene?

The first day of his administration, I heard recently. Then I heard it wouldn’t be in the first 100 days of his administration.

Hopefully as someone who spent the best part of two years boosting the man and his candidacy, you have some insight into WTF his policies are going to be?

“Once, a few years ago, an Egyptian friend wrote to me despondent over the fact that America practiced torture. “You have to be better than us. That is how you’ll win,” he said”

Thats complete rubbish. Its the kind of comment a liberal farty-pants dreams about hearing from some dead-end third worlder who clearly has the worst type of inferiority complex possible.

It’s a highly racist anecdote from dear old Bob Woodward. It plays into the idea that arabs are too stupid and thick and pathetic to help themselves. They are like poor little children who need a western daddy to tech them how to be civilised. Still it sounds natural coming from a slimey prick like Woodward.

I’m not condoning toture, its bad for all kinds of reasons moral or not. But using this pathetic racist anecdote as a reason why its bad is just so fucked it its almost funny.

Must be the season of coincidence, I just finished reading James Taranto:

Pressed for specifics, Obama says only that he thinks waterboarding–which reportedly has been used only a few times, and not recently–is “torture.” As blogger Tom Maguire notes, Stephanopoulos asked Obama “a seemingly easy question”–whether the Army Field Manual will set the limits for all interrogation of terrorists–”but chose to sidestep it.” Then the host tried again:

Stephanapoulos: So no more special CIA program?

Obama: I’m not going to lay out a particular program because again, I thought that Dick Cheney’s advice was good, which is let’s make sure we know everything that’s being done.

It is certainly to Obama’s credit that he has decided to “know what’s going on” rather than “making judgments on the basis of incomplete information or campaign rhetoric.” In an ideal world, he would have abjured the irresponsible campaign rhetoric to begin with. But in imperfect reality, running a dishonest campaign isn’t as bad as instituting reckless policies.

Isolation and exposure to cold doesn’t sound like torture to me. Did they get a confession?

Isolation and exposure to cold doesn’t sound like torture to me. Did they get a confession?

Too bad the person hand-picked by George W Bush to decide these things doesn’t agree with you. They said the treatment included isolation and exposure to cold, and left the person in a “life-threatening condition”.

And you’ve obviously been asleep for the last 30 years of the Northern Ireland conflict if you think having a confession means someone is guilty.

Diddums.

You may have noticed that we just did win in Iraq and we did it by ignoring you losers and shooting lots of people.

So you must be pleased that the Lancet came up with such a big number for the number of Iraqis “you” killed. You big man you.

The Lancet report was before the surge, genius. The policy of shooting bad people in Iraq rather than building skoolz ‘n’ hospitalz (the pre surge policy and the current Afghanistan policy) has saved hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.

The lesson of the the Iraqi war pre and post suge is that absolutely everything the left says should be ignored.

Including, perhaps especially, the Decent Left.

I am very much against torture.

However, I’m not sure whether the fact the U.S. has practised it has any bearing on the way the Arab world views America.

Were America to cease and desist and apologise for its action, the Islamists might just interpret such actions as a sign of weakness.

In macho cultures where torture is practised on a daily basis, the refusal to engage in torture is the hallamrk of a wimp.

So does refusing to practice torture make us look more noble or more despicable in the eyes of our enemies?

The Lancet study is joke.

Oops! The Lancet study is a joke.

Preview is your friend!

Joke or otherwise, by following the sort of namby pamby occupation strategy advocated on the website coalition forces turned Iraq into a violence ridden hellhole. Upon abandoning them this situation was rectified.

I couldn’t give a toss if some Arabs think abandoning torture makes the West look ‘weak’, I judge the West by our own claims of humanity - and by that standard Bush’s America is a failure.

Nailed.

Would Germany have denazified so well if torture had been used to extract confessions at Nuremberg? We owe a lot to Robert Jackson:

“What makes this inquest significant is that these prisoners represent sinister influences that will lurk in the world long after their bodies have returned to dust. We will show them to be living symbols of racial hatreds, of terrorism and violence, and of the arrogance and cruelty of power.”

The use of torture by the Bush administration is a moral disgrace, and is a big part of the reason why the battle of ideas is being lost in the Middle East.

Instead of putting the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed on trial as a living symbol of racial hatred, of terrorism and violence, and of the arrogance and cruelty of power, Bush’s administration locked him up without rights in Guantanamo and tortured him: for 5 years.

A moral disgrace.

How many innocent people confessed under torture in Northern Ireland? I can recall zero cases myself….

I couldn’t give a toss if some Arabs think abandoning torture makes the West look ‘weak’, I judge the West by our own claims of humanity - and by that standard Bush’s America is a failure.

I quite agree.

However, the thrust of this posting is about the supposed negative ‘effect’ Guantanamo has had on the Arab street’s view of America…hence the letter from the Egyptian.

The Arab street has been know to get upset, and murderously so, about billboards showing ads for underwear.

And cartoons and teddy-bear names.

The moral position to take, of course, is one which denounces torture, but I doubt our moral positions have much effect in the Arab world, and I even doubt if some of these positions are even viewed as moral in The Mid-East.

Mr Woodward is claiming our actions (torture) have had a negative impact on America’s image, its likeability, in the Muslim world, but I just happen to think he’s wrong.

You know, were one to release fluffy, white peace-doves all over Gaza, Hamas members would just grab their rifles and blow ‘em to ratshit.

They’re a bit like those Martians in “Mars Attacks!”

How many innocent people confessed under torture in Northern Ireland? I can recall zero cases myself….

Well you either have a terrible memory or have a woeful grasp of modern British history, ChrisC.

There was the case of the Guildford Four, for starters. Or is that a little too obscure for you?

“They’re a bit like those Martians in “Mars Attacks!””

No. They’re people.

And despite many blind-spots of their own, they’re just as capable as detecting hypocrisy as you and I.

Has to be consistency.

The world is now far too dangerous place for us to do anything other than act on our principles.

I think there is an element of “Mars Attacks” incomprehension.

Westerners talking of bringing human rights to the Islamic world, expecting Muslims and Muslim religious leaders to be gratified at the prospect when most of them are appalled - which is why the Islamic nations have rejected universal human rights and have sought a an alternative - the Cairo declaration. Meanwhile no. 1 target for Islamists is always the UN personnel. Partly because they are so easy to pick off and secondly because of what they represent.

Religious leaders in the West talk about developing friendship with Muslims and Muslim religious leaders are appalled. The last thing they want is for Muslims to be friends with kufr.

Muslims talk about restoring their rights and Guardian readers think they are talking about anti-colonialism and wearing a kaftan to work. Whereas of course the Muslims mean rights as in Shariah rights - the right to lord it over the rest of us.

Christians talk of religion thinking of prayers, self improvement and
communion with God. Muslims talk of religion and think of war and law, the supremacy of Muslims and submission to God.

Joke or otherwise, by following the sort of namby pamby occupation strategy advocated on the website coalition forces turned Iraq into a violence ridden hellhole.

What on Earth are you talking about? The lack of troops in Iraq was due to Donald Rumsfeld, not this website. Guantanamo and the use of torture long predates the surge, the worst abuses had been stamped out by then, and the policies and management failures which caused and/or encouraged them were being stopped.

The surge and the war strategy in general has nothing to do with the use of torture.

No. They’re people.

So were the Manson family.

I’m simply pointing out that what the islamic world considers noble and moral, the western world might just consider immoral.

We tend to project our own qualities on Muslims which often results in misunderstandings when the expected responses to gestures of kindness and humanity aren’t forthcoming. The whole”winning hearts and minds” offensive is an abject failure, not becasue it wasn’t the right thing to do, but because its aims are not seen as particularly morally desirable on the part of large numbers of Iraqi Muslims.

Maimonides ( there’s a link on another thread) made some very astute observations about the differences between Christian and Muslim morals.

Christians accept and embrace the behavioral prescriptions set out in the Old Testament, but Muslims, because they see it as having been ‘doctored’ by evil, manipulative Jews, do not.

The Guildford Four signed bogus confessions because of a mixture of factors, some being high on drugs, some claiming to be “frightened” of the police, and one because the police threatened to charge his girlfriend too. You’re widening the definition of torture a tad if any of that is included.

I would just like to add that the “Mars Attacks!” factor is a major reason we keep getting ambushed.

America and NATO spent the entire decade of the 1990s aiding, abetting and protecting Balkan Muslims.

But what did we get in return?

We were expecting expressions of gratitude, but instead got the USS Cole, the embassy bombings in Kenya and 911.

How can we expect any gratitude from a belief systeme that sees itself as divinely entitled to the entire planet, including all its peoples and all its riches?

The lesson of the the Iraqi war pre and post suge is that absolutely everything the left says should be ignored.

I’ll take exception to this notion. In fact, I think the lesson of the the Iraqi war is that absolutely everything the RIGHT says is garbage.

Case in point, “the friends of terrorists will be treated as enemies.” Iraq gave Ahmadinejad a hero’s welcome and is not considered a US enemy.

“”"”America and NATO spent the entire decade of the 1990s aiding, abetting and protecting Balkan Muslims.

But what did we get in return? “”"”

Jonh P, for god sake, can you stop spreading lies about the Balkan Muslims?????

I will not even bother dismantling JP’s message.

The implication that US and NATO involvement in the Balkans allowed the spread of muslim fundamentalism is simply false.

I just would like to point that, in my perspective his comment falls in the category of promotion of fake information to promote hate. The peoples of the Balkan region have already problems enough, they don’t need their image to be tarnished by false information.

Oh, there`s some good news-

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Pentagon said on Tuesday that 61 former detainees from its military prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, appear to have returned to terrorism since their release from custody.

“”””America and NATO spent the entire decade of the 1990s aiding, abetting and protecting Balkan Muslims.
But what did we get in return? “”””

A sex-o-phone prez and fallen Dutch govt?

If Obama outlaws torture, will the US military be forced to stop torturing themselves? After all, many of the methods were specifically invented or refined for the SERE course so as not to do their volunteers any harm.

The military are no longer allowed to use racist words, even as terms of endearment. They’re not allowed to run harsh survival courses. They’re not allowed to shout at recruits in case they find it upsetting. They’re not allowed to frighten the animals with loud noises when hunting for sneaking submarines.

But at least they’ll be allowed to manlove one another.

Which will be really handy, should any of these ‘rights’ campaigners ever decide to join the army.

(PS. Nothing wrong with manlove, in the right circumstances. Ask the Muslims.)

Actually, this whole thing is utterly absurd. Let’s be clear that just three people were subjected to this mistreatment, which amounted to the kind of thing that army recruits go through in their basic training.

Furthermore, the official cited declared that it amounted to torture in the specific case of a man whose health was poor. In other words, if his health had been good, it might not be considered torture.

Furthermore, who are we trying to kid? That there’s no torture in the USA? Get real.

Finally, only the Left imagines that the problem with Muslim terrorism is rooted in Middle Eastern people not liking the USA enough, or that Arabs are shocked and offended by occasional mistreatment of detainees. Was it the sight of torture that led Qutb to denounce the West? Or was it a church dance? Or let me put it another way: did the attack on the WTC in 1993, or the attack in 2001, precede or follow the allegations of torture in Gitmo?

(One benefit of the Obama administration, should he ever actually get around to closing Gitmo, is that we will no longer have to put up with these kind of idiotic, herd-like analyses as to why our enemies have declared war on us and what our response should be.)

It’s not THAT you win that’s important; it’s also HOW you win.

(Otherwise you destroy the thing you love. What’s the point of that?)

Miliband has spoken out about the ‘war on terror’: how brave, attacking the outgoing President.

Fair point on the church dance, but it was being tortured in Nasser’s jails that really radicalised Qutb, and turned him into the nutter whose followers we are dealing with today.

At least just about everyone here agrees that torture is wrong. We could debate all day about whether America’s use of it is really a major factor in alienating people used to living under regimes where torture is a given. But surely it is obvious that it alienates a very significant proportion of Western public opinion. And surely it is equally obvious that the threat posed by Islamism cannot be effectively faced by the West if public opinion is not on board.

The implication that US and NATO involvement in the Balkans allowed the spread of muslim fundamentalism is simply false.

That is not what I said or even meant.

I simply pointed out that neither America nor NATO recieved any gratitude from the Muslim world for their decade-long efforts to protect Balkan muslims.

Not a penny of gratitude. Instead, the radicals payed us back with the USS Cole, the Kenyan bombings and 911.

It’s all one big ummah, Sarah. If Muslims the world over can express indignation at the oppression of Balkan Muslims, then surely they could express their gratitude to The West when those same Muslims are protected by western soldiers, some of whom were killed.

Then again, perhaps not.