Harry's Place

Good to hear. The firebomb attack on Starbucks 300 yards from Brick Lane has still not made into any national news. I wonder why, since after or during Islamic terror attacks the media are hypersensitive about islamophobia…

Bravo!

They are to be commended. Asghar Bukhari, Bungle and Tamimi’s signatures must have got lost in the post.

Would you want them to sign such a letter? It would debase it.

Good stuff.

I generally write “antisemitic” (no hyphen), but apart from that, I have no quibble with the grammar, syntax, or meaning of this statement.

Plus three MBEs and one OBE, not bad going at all.

They understand the most simple principle of all, that innocent people should not be held culpable for the actions of other individuals or governments, simply because of their ethnicity or religious origin or nominal background. Simple really. The most basic and simple and obvious principle of a civilised society really.

The same principle that applies in the aftermath of terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists in relation to innocent Muslims. The same principle that applies in protection of innocent ‘KUFFURS’ targetted by Islamic extremists.

Hopefully this will spread like a meme, and we never see again in the aftermath of Islamic terrorist attacks, any ‘but’ condemnations of any kind. So well done to these lads. Hope the message goes into the clotted skulls of the thugs.

Heartwarming news

Restores yer faith in humanity so it does.

I generally write “antisemitic” (no hyphen), but apart from that, I have no quibble with the grammar, syntax, or meaning of this statement.

If only you’d never been taught to write!

It also keep alive my faith in Benji.

Good stuff.

Most Muslims are completely against such behaviour. However, we call on all Muslims to continue to remain vigilant against attempts to bring our own faith and community into disrepute.

What utter rubbish.

In order to make the above statement with a straight face, one would have to lack a whole fucking layer of consciousness.

We are to ignore all the violence, anti-semitism and hate-speech and pretend that none of it happened?

Although the perpetrators are yet unknown ( geez, could they be Buddhists?), we unreservedly condemn attacks on innocent British citizens and the desecration of all places of worship.

If the condmenation is ‘unreserved’, then why the caveat “although the perpetrators are yet unknown”?

In so many words they’re closing ranks and insisting the Islam has nothing to do with any of this.

This isn’t an apology, it is a statement of denial, and should therefore be ‘unreservedly’ rejected.

In the Name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful

Ah, blow me.

I contrast this with a letter of regret once published by MCB after the twin bombings in Turley several years ago. Day One was a synagogue. Day Two were HSBC and the British consulate. Urged by a Govt. minister to say something about the bombings MCB eventually expressed regret “for the attack on British interests in Turkey”, and so obviously avoiding regret over the synagogue bombing.

I wonder if the letter will get publicity it deserves and so then force the press to address the antisemitic incidents for which these signatories are writing about. Otherwise the public will wonder what this is all about.

Also, I wonder if the Govt. will acknowledge the letter and so allow us to wonder what they are doing about it, or if they even noticed it!

John P, I think this is as strong a letter as they feel they can get away with. They are bound to get complaints from mainstream Islamist organisations (like MPAC UK for example) that they have actually become “Zionist Stooges” for writing it. Certainly with Ed Husain signing it because they already call him a traitor.

I just wonder who they represent. Are they seen as the senior members of the Islamic community who the Islamist hot-heads say are out of touch.

Any follower of MPAC UK, like myself, knows they are always slagging-off the mosques for not being radical enough.

I just wonder who they represent

They don’t represent anyone but themselves. But they add their voice to the debate. That’s all, I reckon, we should ever expect and hope for. Investing authority of complete ‘voice’ to any organisation or collection of individuals gives them a power and authority they don’t have and don’t deserve.

John P, you honestly think that most Muslims are pro-antisemitic attacks?

John P’s full of his usual Christian love, compassion and goodwill, I see.

“If the condmenation is ‘unreserved’, then why the caveat “although the perpetrators are yet unknown”?

In so many words they’re closing ranks and insisting the Islam has nothing to do with any of this.”

Because they are unknown.

I suspect that they’re connected to the YMO or another Islamist group. But I don’t know if they’re even Muslim. They might be athiest anti-globalisation protestors – quite seriously.

You’ll remember that the early reports of the Mumbai massacre quoted a number of sources – some vaguely credible – that there was a UK link, and that some of the murderers were British.

Some papers printed that as fact, and some Muslim groups condemned British Muslim participation.

Turned out it was absolutely untrue.

So this letter is quite properly phrased.

So this letter is quite properly phrased.

It stinks of weasel-wording though.

Morgoth, just imagine how these moderate old fuddy duddies will lose all credibility with angry young Muslims who are finding themselves tempted by Islamist chauvinism if they assume in their public statement that the attacks were carried out by Muslims, only to be proven later that it’s not the case.

It’s a kind gesture. Some of you are deeply cynical.

Ed Husain trying to undo the damage caused to his reputation by the intemperate tone of his recent contributions to CIF, would be my interpretation.

Some one post this on Indymedia Uk, people are now uploading reports about marches by Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain!

https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/01/418584.html

The ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians in Gaza by Israeli forces has angered us all.

…while remaining indifferent to the tens of thousands killed in Darfur by our co-religionists.

SOP – “standard operating procedure” comes to mind. Then again, in those good old days there was the sop to cerberus.

great letter, and it would be better if MORE people in the media acknowledged that these terrible racially motivated attacks were occuring and went as far as the authors of the letter did

“people are now uploading reports about marches by Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain!”

I walked past a HT demo last weekend, I’m surprised there’s been no coverage of this because it sounded pretty nasty.

Plus three MBEs and one OBE, not bad going at all.

Yes, that’s a poke in the eye for the Islamists’ view that our society is Islamophobic.

Nick M,

Being an ignorant bigotted tosser who knows fuck all about the subject he is pontificating on, you’ll be unaware that Ed Husain, one of the signatories, is not a bearded loon spouting taqqiya, but a “British neocon pinup boy”. Even Melanie Phillips has called him a brave Muslim!

We are deeply saddened to hear about anti-Semitic assaults on British Jews, and a recent arson attack on a London synagogue. Although the perpetrators are yet unknown, they might not be Muslims, you knowwe unreservedly condemn attacks on innocent British citizens and the desecration of all places of worship. even if they are Jewish

The ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians in Gaza by Israeli forces has angered us all.Couldn’t let this go without dragging a foreign conflict into this, as though it were in some way relevant – even though “the perpetrators are unknown”

However, this does not, and cannot, justify attacks on our fellow citizens of Jewish faith and background here in Britain.though the fact that we have to say this shows that there must be some sort of connection

Most Muslims are completely against such behaviour. it’s all about usHowever, we call on all Muslims to continue to remain vigilant against attempts to bring our own faith and community into disrepute. because that’s the really important point, isn’t it? Not bringing Islam into disrepute British Jews should not be held responsible for the actions of the Israeli government. Israeli Jews, now that’s a different matter

Cheers, Ed Husain and chums.

John P, you honestly think that most Muslims are pro-antisemitic attacks?>/i>

John P’s full of his usual Christian love, compassion and goodwill, I see.

My Christinaity is characterised by a healthy skepticism…when it isn’t behaving like the Cowardly Lion.

John P, I think this is as strong a letter as they feel they can get away with. They are bound to get complaints from mainstream Islamist organisations (like MPAC UK for example) that they have actually become “Zionist Stooges” for writing it.

So Maven are you therefore saying that mainstream Muslims are all radicals, and that only a timid minority are willing to condemn this outrageous behavior?

The authors of this ‘condemnation’ pretty much know the identity of the attackers ( theyre “Asian”), and so have decided to pre-emptively distance themselves AND Islam from these crimes for selfish and chauvinistic reasons.

Any true condemnation would have had these individuals promising to explore and expose the connection between Islam and this behavior, with the attendant committment to challenge those aspects of the ‘faith’ that CAN and HAVE been used to encourage acts of violence.

I will not accept anything less.

Instead, we have a few embarassed Muslims yet again drawing the wagons in a circle.

Same old, same old.

There’s an expression in Yiddish… “tuchus of’n tisch” / “put your ass on the table” … These are just words which they churn out as PR but I can’t see what they are ‘doing’ to change the situation.

Well I suppose it’s something, if they are willing to stand behind their words.

Just wondering, did the rocket attacks on Israel, which have been going on for years now similarly anger the representatives of the UK Muslim Community, and if so, where are the letters to that effect?

I’d be more impressed if some prominent Muslims in the UK, or even not so prominent came out and protested Hamas eight year long campaign of harrassment on Israelis; you know something simple like “will you stop this otherwise there will be a reaction”.

One, can only live in hope.

A very wonderful and insightful interpretation by Heresiarch above.

This is a courageous and noble letter. It gives the lie to the idea that all Muslims support the recent upsurge in anti-semitism. If there is another terror attack in UK, all of us should take the same stand about Islamophobic attacks on Mosques and women in hijabs.

Just wondering, did the rocket attacks on Israel, which have been going on for years now similarly anger the representatives of the UK Muslim Community, and if so, where are the letters to that effect?

And HP? There have not been many posts on rocket attacks over the years; mainly during the 2006 war against Hez, and this war.

It’s a kind gesture. Some of you are deeply cynical.

Given how many hundreds of millions of people have been killed by theism in the last millenium, I think I have every right to be cynical of theist platitudes.

To expand Heresiarch’s brilliant analysis above, if they had been serious then the letter would have consisted of ONLY something along the lines of “We are deeply saddened to hear about anti-Semitic assaults on British Jews, and a recent arson attack on a London synagogue. We unreservedly condemn attacks on British citizens and the desecration of places of worship.”

P.S. John P, Christianity is “characterised by a healthy skepticism”? Pull the fucking other one sunshine. I think my irony meter just exploded. If you had anytning close to a healthy skepticism you wouldn’t believe the murderous retarded bullshit that you do. YOU are as much of a problem as every single signatory on that list. You and your religion are as much a plague upon the human race as any Hamas loon.

Something interesting from Hugh here which is good reading
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015816.php

@ Neil D: It’s a long time since Mel thought Ed was “a brave Muslim”. She’s taken it all back.

This is my take on his recent intellectual pirouettes, if anyone’s interested.

Mel P has turned against Ed.

However, I’m going to write a position piece on that. Basically, props to Ed and boos to Mel.

Yay to David T

This is obviously welcome; however, the assertion that “Most Muslims are completely against such behaviour” is completely unsupported by any data or evidence. Indeed, the finding by a poll a couple of years ago that even then a plurality of British muslims regarded British Jews as “a legitimate target”, brings this assertion into serious question.

If this statement is, as it appears to be, merely a statement of what the letter writers wish to be the case, rather than an asertion that they can support with solid evidence, then it rather spoils the whole message.

I contrast this with a letter of regret once published by MCB after the twin bombings in Turley several years ago. Day One was a synagogue. Day Two were HSBC and the British consulate. Urged by a Govt. minister to say something about the bombings MCB eventually expressed regret “for the attack on British interests in Turkey”, and so obviously avoiding regret over the synagogue bombing.

The MCB’s attitude was correct. They regretted the attack on British interests because they’re British. They said nothing about the attack on a synagogue because the victims were not British and because a Muslim is not responsible for what other Muslims do, just like a Jew is not responsible for what other Jews do.

In Spanish we have a proverb about geese and ganders — does it exist in English too?

HB, please fuck off in English, Spanish or whatever you prefer. Look at yourself and realise you are an unabashed apologist for terror and its cheerleaders.

If you had anytning close to a healthy skepticism you wouldn’t believe the murderous retarded bullshit that you do. YOU are as much of a problem as every single signatory on that list. You and your religion are as much a plague upon the human race as any Hamas loon.

Goodness you’re high-octane ce matin.

The diference between me and Hamas is like the difference between Italy and Saudi Arabia.

And at least the apologies and condemnations issued by The Vatican are sincere…most of the time.

In any case, Montréal has acquired some very effective means to cool the heated anti-semitic, anti-Israel demos.

An air temperature of -30C with a wind-chill factor of -45C.

Think I’ll go sit in the fridge and warm up now.

Yep, insightful Herersiarch @ 2.13, has got it pretty much as it’s been intended.

I fed up with anti-semitism. I seem to be finding it everywhere I go. People assume I’m not jewish probably because they have mad ideas of what I am supposed to look like. However I was grateful to the authors of that letter regardless of its iffy content. I’m sure they mean well. I’ve never disliked or feared muslim people. But I do fear the so called liberal left. Anyway I don’t know why everyone assumes they are the left! What does ‘left’ mean anymore. You’re so clever on this site. Can’t you think of another name for them.

Beeb report on Arab/Jewish tensions across the Channel/la manche

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7826463.stm

If there is another terror attack in UK, all of us should take the same stand about Islamophobic attacks on Mosques and women in hijabs.

What fascinating survival instincts you have.

Like spring lamb hoping for an early Easter.

However, I’m going to write a position piece on that. Basically, props to Ed and boos to Mel.

Mel seems a tad paranoid at times. Just in her writing. She might be a nice person to talk about the weather with and stuff.

The diference between me and Hamas is like the difference between Italy and Saudi Arabia.

Don’t you actually mean the difference between you and hamas is like that of Italy from 1922-43 and Saudi Arabia today?

This is a quid pro quo of sorts to millipede Milliband who 2 days earlier :

2009-01-14 India-Pakistan
Pakistan not linked to Mumbai attack: Britain

Visiting British Foreign Secretary David Miliband said in India on Tuesday he believes the Mumbai terror attacks were not directed by Islamabad — contradicting Indian statements that the South Asian rival’s state agencies were ‘involved’ — but called on Pakistan to ‘act properly’ in bringing the perpetrators to justice.

“I have said publicly, I don’t believe the attacks were directed by Pakistani state … and I think it is important to restate that. What is important is the approach of Pakistani state towards the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba (LT),” Miliband said while addressing a joint press conference with his Indian counterpart, Pranab Mukherjee.

Are all the signatories ‘moderate’?

I have no idea who those names represent.

“I have said publicly, I don’t believe the attacks were directed by Pakistani state … and I think it is important to restate that. What is important is the approach of Pakistani state towards the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba (LT),” Miliband said while addressing a joint press conference with his Indian counterpart, Pranab Mukherjee.

He is probably more or less correct. Except that the ISI is pretty much a law unto itself and is deeply intertwined with both the Taliban and Lashkar e Taiba. But I doubt the Pakistani Government per se directed or authorised the attack.

He does come across as an annoying, ignorant little man though, genuinely like a surprised sixth former with a prefect’s badge. His extremely awkward hug-in with the Indian FM was just embarrassing and he cannot (for reasons of political expedience or sheer ignorance) tell the truth about Islam as a unifying ideology amongst disparate terrorist groups.

Having wondered about the two armed officers patrolling a side street in Primrose Hill, I just found he was a near neighbour. Perhaps I should pop round and set his straight.

I also saw that fat, scouse, allegedly-Jewish cunt Alexei Sayle in Troika on Regents Park Road a few months ago, looking a bit forlorn. Next time I will spit in his cappuchino…

John P, you honestly think that most Muslims are pro-antisemitic attacks?

Millions are, and say so. Perhaps you missed it.
As an atheist with no particular affection for Christianity who agrees with most of John P’s posts, I don’t see what ‘Christian love’ has to do with stopping the denial about Moslem antisemitism.

Heresiarch:

We are deeply saddened to hear about anti-Semitic assaults on British Jews, and a recent arson attack on a London synagogue. Although the perpetrators are yet unknown, they might not be Muslims, you know

Yes. They might not. Whilst it seems likely at this stage that the attackers were Muslim, and that is why this statement was released, we should probably wait until there is some evidence, police arrests then a trial before stating categorically that a member of a certain group was responsible. Perhaps one of the lawyers here could explain that whole “innocent until proved guilty thing” if you’re still unclear on this matter.

we unreservedly condemn attacks on innocent British citizens and the desecration of all places of worship. even if they are Jewish

Well done on your imagination. Now let’s return to what was actually said rather than what you want to have been said.

The ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians in Gaza by Israeli forces has angered us all.Couldn’t let this go without dragging a foreign conflict into this, as though it were in some way relevant – even though “the perpetrators are unknown”

Anti-Semitic attacks have increased massively since the Gaza offensive began, this isn’t “dragging a foreign conflict into this”, it’s tackling a fundamental issue.

However, this does not, and cannot, justify attacks on our fellow citizens of Jewish faith and background here in Britain.though the fact that we have to say this shows that there must be some sort of connection

The only connection that exists is in the warped minds of certain indoctrinated people – if these people are to be deradicalised then yes, they have to say this and your attempt to understand the opposite meaning to that of their actual words is more than faintly ridiculous.

Most Muslims are completely against such behaviour. it’s all about us

Not really sure where you’re going here. This is an open letter from some Muslims to other Muslims saying that Islam does not allow Anti-Semitism. It is thought that many anti-Semitic attacks have been carried out by Muslims so yes, this is somewhat about Muslims.

However, we call on all Muslims to continue to remain vigilant against attempts to bring our own faith and community into disrepute. because that’s the really important point, isn’t it? Not bringing Islam into disrepute

They want to encourage a consensus amongst Muslims that such anti-Semitic attacks are against Islam. Do you not agree with such a goal?

British Jews should not be held responsible for the actions of the Israeli government. Israeli Jews, now that’s a different matter

You are changing the topic rather, this letter is brief and to the point: there is no defence for the recent anti-Semitic attacks in London.

Cheers, Ed Husain and chums.

Nice to see you going down the Sarah Palin line of trying to use “chums” in a pejorative sense.

I have to ask, what exactly could a Muslim say about anti-Semitism that would not result in you sneering at him?

Next time I will spit in his cappuchino…

I will forever regret not tripping up Livingdead in a supermarket on Finchley Road some 18 years ago.

A goodly letter from the prominent and good.

However it may be that the perpetuators of these outrages in London and Swansea are not a million miles away from the BNP rather than Islam. It all part of thier campaign to stirr a religeous war in the UK.

You and your religion (Christianity) are as much a plague upon the human race as any Hamas loon.

What drivel, Morgoth.

Perhaps one of the lawyers here could explain that whole “innocent until proved guilty thing” if you’re still unclear on this matter.

Perhaps someone could remind you of 7/7, and the many Moslems who have called for wholesale slaughter of British Jews.

what exactly could a Muslim say about anti-Semitism that would not result in you sneering at him?

Perhaps one with no ifs, buts and on the other hands?

Islam does not allow Anti-Semitism

LOL.

“I will forever regret not tripping up Livingdead in a supermarket on Finchley Road some 18 years ago.”

If it makes you feel better, I called him a twat as he passed me in a hotel in Brighton about 5 years ago.

What drivel, Morgoth.

Tell that to the millions murdered by the rabid attack dogs of Jehovah over the centuries.

“I will forever regret not tripping up Livingdead in a supermarket on Finchley Road some 18 years ago.”

If it makes you feel better, I called him a twat as he passed me in a hotel in Brighton about 5 years ago.”

I wish I had called Brown a twat when he galloped up and shook my hand two or three years ago during a marathon handshakeathon in my particular bit of the City. Coulda, woulda, shoulda…

Perhaps one with no ifs, buts and on the other hands?

Count them.

They want to encourage a consensus amongst Muslims that such anti-Semitic attacks are against Islam. Do you not agree with such a goal

Why would such a ‘consensus’ even have to be encouraged, you dickwad?

Are large numbers of Muslims so daft, backward, retarded and/or inbred that they have to be given very clear and precise instructions so as not to attack synagogues and Jews?

Have you ever heard of Buddhist or Hindu clerics having to encourage their congregations to arrive at such a consensus?

The mere fact such a consensus doesn’t exist…this IS the 21st century, you know… provides more than enough fecal-matter to completely sully the faith.

You, too, lack an entire layer of consciousness.

“Have you ever heard of Buddhist or Hindu clerics having to encourage their congregations to arrive at such a consensus?”

Ever heard of Hindutva? Ever read about the Gujarat massacre? There is certainly a need for consensus within India’s Hindu community, and the diaspora, that condemns violence against innocent people and that condemns outright people like Narendra Modi.

Wiki hindutva definition:

Hindutva is meant to denote the Hindu characteristic, or Hinduness. In a judgment the Supreme Court of India ruled that “no precise meaning can be ascribed to the terms ‘Hindu’, ‘Hindutva’ and ‘Hinduism’; and no meaning in the abstract can confine it to the narrow limits of religion alone, excluding the content of Indian culture and heritage.” The Court also ruled that “Ordinarily, Hindutva is understood as a way of life or a state of mind and is not to be equated with or understood as religious Hindu fundamentalism. A Hindu may embrace a non-Hindu religion without ceasing to be a Hindu and since the Hindu is disposed to think synthetically and to regard other forms of worship, strange gods and divergent doctrines as inadequate rather than wrong or objectionable, he tends to believe that the highest divine powers complement each other for the well-being of the world and mankind.”

Hindutva is commonly identified with the guiding ideology of the Sangh Parivar, a family of Hindu Nationalist organizations, and of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh in particular. In general, Hindutvavaadis (followers of Hindutva) believe that they represent the well-being of Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Ayyavazhi, Jainism and all other religions prominent in India.

Dan. There’s really not much point entering into discussion with John P. He spouts bigoted crap in lieu of such pesky things as factual details and arguments. And when you produce a good counter-argument to his bigotry – as you have here – he will just ignore it/fail to understand it.

Ever heard of Hindutva? Ever read about the Gujarat massacre? There is certainly a need for consensus within India’s Hindu community, and the diaspora,

So Hindus in London were attacking Mosques in London during and after the Mumbai attacks?

Not that Israel’s defense measures could in any way be compared to the actrions of jihadist murderers

And did Hindus in London bomb London’s mosques, abuse police officers and threaten Britons with death when Islamists attacked India’s parliament?

You really don’t grasp the crux of this, do you?

I get a bit paranoid about HP sometimes, so Mel and I have something in common.

Hindutva extremists are fucking dangerous people in India. But it’s not directly applicable to this situation.

If Hindutvadi proponents in England start agitating for the collective punishment of Muslims in the UK, and Muslims are attacked by Hindu thugs in England, in supposed response to events in the sub-continent, it would be analagous to the situation here.

http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/media_press_release_pitts.htm

John P. He spouts bigoted crap in lieu of such pesky things as factual details and arguments.

I need no encouragement to know that attcking places of worship is wrong.

What kind of a ignorant savage would need such a consensus? It is your own statements and not any bigotry that incriminates Islam and Muslims here.

Adherents to the religion of peace need precise instructions so as not to attack innocent people.

Just what percentage of your co-relgionists are imbued with such hatreds, Gsirrah?

And as far as “factual details” are concerned, it’s hardly a secret that mohammed himself was a vile Jew-hater.

Now off you go, a concensus-building!

Utterly primitive.

hutchrun: Wikipedia is shit. The RSS was inspired by Nazism and the Sangh Parivar have been responsible for some of the most severe communalist outrages in the past two decades, starting with the destruction of the Babri Masjid.

John P: You asked when have Hindu “clerics” sought consensus against violent attacks, implying that Hindus were not inclined towards violent extremism. They are, as demonstrated in India, with the Gujarat massacre the worst recent atrocity against Muslims. You seem keen to portray Muslims as uniquely and fundamentally evil.

Nick M is as offensive as any jihadist or neo-Nazi. Please ban him.

Koenrad Elst has written much on these “detestable” hindus. To save thread, only the link so here goes:
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html
See what historian Wiil Durant says there (Story Of Civilization), one lives and learns eh.

And yet no amok hindus/buddhists in the streets of London yet unless the MSM is avoiding it.

Dan c`mon.

What`s this now. You talk of hindutva, then wiki is shit `cos the Supreme Court of India decision is not your cup of tea. And what do you do,you run off to join the RSS. Sheesh!

Hindutva extremism is a real threat to the progress and peaceful future of India. They not only target Muslims, they increasingly target Christians as well in places like Orissa, as ‘outsiders’ infecting the ‘Hindu’ body politic of a ‘pure’ Indian nation. They demonise minorities and are implicated in organised violence against minorities in India.

The point is though, Dan. Do you know of any instances in which British Hindus in the UK have launched physical attacks against Muslims here? Or responded to events in the sub-continent like the recent attacks in Mumbai by suggesting that Muslims in England are in some way culpable or to be held guilty of such assaults? And to express that by vandalising Islamic buildings, for example?

My memory is jolted:

Gandhi’s experiment with Islam and why it failed
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/HinduWoman40718.htm

Well said, Gsirrah.

The point is though, Dan. Do you know of any instances in which British Hindus in the UK have launched physical attacks against Muslims here? Or responded to events in the sub-continent like the recent attacks in Mumbai by suggesting that Muslims in England are in some way culpable or to be held guilty of such assaults? And to express that by vandalising Islamic buildings, for example?

Dan will never understand the difference.

Gong because they keep the murderous scum under their command vaguely under control because the fuckers are biding time for the big push.

Well, Islam is nothing but one big protection racket. Give us everything we want, cede to every demand, or else!

In Vancouver (Canada) a Starbucks was recently bombed, and in the process seveal neighbouring businesses destroyed as well.

And windows in a Holiday Inn more than half a block away were blown out.

Although, the perpetrators remain unknown.

And people are really fed up.

In response to the ridiculous suggestion, as put by John P and others, that only Muslims can be nasty to other groups I suggest you have a reread of Edmund Standing’s guest post about Christians on the leaked BNP membership list.
Turns out that there are unpleasant people and ideologies from all sorts of backgrounds out there.

That shouldn’t have needed saying.

What a depressing thread.

The irony that the wholly admirable actions of a group of 22 Muslims in condemning bigotry and hatred against Jews has provoked this level of bigotry and hatred against Muslims would probably have been quite amusing were it not so very very depressing.

OK I`ll shut up and leave the field :)

Dan will never understand the difference.

I think he does, but he wanted to point out that various things coincide to make religion, nationalism and violence intertwine everywhere, because he felt that some of the rhetoric employed here made generalisations about Muslims that were unfair.

Bunglythingy didn’t need to sign it – he probably worded it. It reads a lot like the sort of thing he would want to put over on unsuspecting Brits

Wasn’t there a thread not too long ago where John P said that black people never failed to disappoint him. Valuable insight into his way of thinking.

I know there was one in which John P assumed Sunny Hundal was from India.

The full quote is:

John P.
3 January 2009, 11:19 pm

These Muzzies are capable of anything, honestly.

[quoting Sunny]

The radicals most certainly are

You’re South Asian. Have you forgotten Mumbai already?

And your lame ‘disproportionate’ response to that tragedy was telling. Why weren’t demonstrations held to protest that?

As a Sikh you’ve absolutely no stake in the Israel/Palestine conflict, but yet loudly protest the legitimate and justifiable IDF incursions while remaining mum on conflicts, south asian conflicts, that doconcern you.

Retard.

As I said further up, there really is no point entering into discussion with him.

You can all see that David T is not a ruthless censor: what he has in mind is editing so as to produce a readable thread. No fear of a boring thread: our common friend, Moses, told me he was as mischievous as I am. I think David could have used his shears on John P, not because of a hostile argument, but because of the all out nastiness of his attack on the signatories above. For G-d’s sake, can’t you accept a hand of friendship without immediately shitting on it because it does not correspond to perfection to your view. Be happy! Smile! accept people warts and all. Your religion tells you to take the beam out of your own eye first…

However I was intrigued by Neil D’s description of Ed Husain as a “British neocon pinup boy.” I was eager to see this pin up boy, and proceeded to the Guardian article by Seamus Milne, but there is no picture there. Can anyone give me a link to the pin up boy’s picture?

While I was there I read Seamus M’s article, and as his e-mail address was there, I wrote a letter which will, I’m sure be ignored. I will copy it onto a separate post. David, Brett use your shears. As long as my flowers are being cut by you, it’s O.K. Put me in a vase to die an elegaic death in a dark corner. Alas, Jeff Buckley can no longer sing my elegy.

Digging up the John P and black people quote from the Bounty Killer thread:

“John P. – 20 November 2008, 1:19 pm

What a disgusting piece of shit.

And to judge from the crowd, I must say that the Black community just never ceases to disappoint.”

This charming man!

That’s the beauty of the Internet. The sharing can go on and on.

Nick M’s another one! Argh, David T get out the weedkiller

Dear Mr. Milne,
I’m surprised you give your e-mail address. You must receive piles of mail including hate-mail. I hope you have a secretary who filters your mail!

My feeling is that whatever anyone is doing politically they are doing wrong. Wrongs are piled on wrongs for centuries, and only very, very occasionally there is a Nelson Mandela who says, “Stop.” He wouldn’t accept revenge on the whites in S.A., and, as I grew up in that country, I know just how barbarously the blacks were treated. I have no doubt about his humane intentions, even if there were obviously also economic considerations in his mind. If the whites had all left and/or been eliminated, this would have led to an economic disaster.

Hitler’s Germany was the product of wrongs done to that country. It had been a battle field of European wars for centuries. It had been punished, humiliated by the Versailles treaty and to this was added the economic depression. But no matter what the causes – and these do indeed have to be understood – once Hitler is there, he is unacceptable. This is what I feel about Islamic fundamentalism which you go almost so far as to champion. Unfortunately the Islamists are not better people than we are, and if they could have had things the other way round…perish the thought! As bad as they are, the Western ‘democracies’ don’t hang gays (like me) from cranes, don’t sentence their children to death as suicide bombers, don’t throw acid into the eyes of school girls, and…need I go on with the recitation? You must know it all.

So whatever you think of the damage that Bush and Blair have done, I think it would be a mistake to lose awareness of the significance of Islam fundamentalism. This jump form leftist liberalism – or whatever you’d like to call it – to active support of retrograde regimes is one of the most surreal things to have happened in recent history. In your article you almost champion Ben Laden (who chuckled gleefully over the the carnage of the twin towers) as the voice of reason. In one of your sentences I feel the struggle of ‘ought to, should’ trying to emerge between the lines:

“But that such (terrorist) attacks (should, ought to) continue is a central part of Blair’s legacy. ”

I was against all American wars against Iraq and Afghanistan, but – I have to admit this – I couldn’t help feeling the relief of seeing music being allowed again, women freer, girls going to school in Afghanistan. Then I hope you would support the students anti-totalitarian movement in Iran. Persian culture had become quite secularised, so it must have been hard for them to buckle under.

Then I most certainly expect you to condemn the anti-semitism which is fostered by ugly demonstrations and Galloway screaming, “We are Hamas!” “Shut down the Israeli shops.” Before the 1st World War, the English danced in the streets, and Germans who had gone to live there for years and come to love it, had to leave. Mass hysteria is not a solution to anything. It should be kept for occasions like the death of Princess Diana.

I’m sure you won’t have the time to answer all the letters you receive, but I can save this one for myself. I can put it as an open letter to you on my website.

Yours sincerely,
Felix de Villiers, Verona, Italy

Seumas Milne
The Guardian, Thursday 5 July 2007
Article history

Will the crocodiles please line up in a row and shuffle forward one by one to deposit their tears in the bucket marked Taqiyya.

They follow a religion founded by a man who drove the Jews out of Arabia. Have they ever protested to Saudi Arabia about the ban on Jews in that country? Or the persecution of Jews and other minorities – Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Zoroastrians, Ahmadiyya Muslims and Bahai among others – in numerous Islamic countries.

Anyone got links to where John P opines about the indigenous inhabitants of Canada with names like Palubiski?

In response to the ridiculous suggestion, as put by John P and others, that only Muslims can be nasty to other groups

This assertion is a lie.

If it makes you feel better, I called him a twat as he passed me in a hotel in Brighton about 5 years ago.

Thanks, bissli – it does!

Morgoth,
I am not talking about 500 years ago, as you know full well.
To remind you, I am an atheist and have no fondness for Christianity.
Now you remind me of the last time Christians bombed a train.

Now you remind me of the last time Christians bombed a train.

This is a public service announcement for the from Those Who Remember the War in the Former Yugoslavia

Gsirrah doesn’t know what ‘although’ and ‘however’ mean. How sad.

This letter is bigoted, which he also fails to see. He swallows the mealy-mouthed hypocrisy hook line and sinker – because he always does when the writer is a Moslem, and never believes anything when he is an Israeli Jew.
And he talks about bigotry …

There were Christian suicide bombers on trains in the former Yugoslavia … right … and they murdered far more Moslems than the number murdered across the world by Moslems in the last 20 years … right. If you say so.

This is a public service announcement from Those Who Cannot See the Personally Abusive Element in Quoting an Individual’s Own Words.

I’m reading a reasonable and carefully drafted letter by reasonable people who pick their words carefully.

I know Rokhsana Fiaz and having read Ed Husain’s book I know who Maajid Nawaz is.

What I don’t know is where this letter has been published.

Nick M -
I would regard a deranged attack by Kool Aid as part of the job description, nay a badge of honour, when you respond to moonbats. Keep up the good work.

Keep on believing until Muhammed chokes you with his camel-shit befouled cock.

Er, peace be upon him, of course. That’ll level it out, I’m sure.

Gsirrah @5.05pm – good post.

I’m sad that a few of the posts today demonstrate hatred of Islam (I don’t include Morgoth who is admirably coherent and consistent in his anti-theism).

It’s very good that leading Muslims have put their name to this letter.

But I wish it had gone further too. There is no condemnation of the ideology of anti-semitism that motivates these attacks. There is no condemnation of the anti-semitic imagery and propaganda which has become so prevalent in the Muslim community. There is no rejection of the Islamic texts which the Islamism uses to justify its genocidal anti-semitism under Shari’a.

Little by little, I guess.

And what does this tell us about the Muslim leaders who didn’t sign this letter, and with whom the Government engages as leaders of the UK Muslim community?

Inayat Bunglawala, if you’re reading this thread: what do you think?

carefully drafted letter

It sure is. It is very careful not to condemn murder of Israeli Jews. It is careful to mention Gaza as an escape route from having to be unambiguous in their moral indignation.

I’m inclined to give credit where it is due, they are explicitly condemning the attacks on British Jewry.

Does anyone know where this letter has been published? There aren’t any embedded links.

And as Tevya says, it is careful to say nothing about the fundamental antisemitic hatred running through Islam like the letters in Brighton Rock.

There were Christian suicide bombers on trains

That is not what you said. In just one example, the footage taken at Srebrenica (why did the morons film it?) showed an Orthodox priest blessing Slobodan Davidovic et al.

Besides, the Madrid train bombings were not suicide.

Tevya: And what does this tell us about the Muslim leaders who didn’t sign this letter, and with whom the Government engages as leaders of the UK Muslim community? Inayat Bunglawala, if you’re reading this thread: what do you think?

I could be wrong, but I’d be amazed if they showed the letter to Inayat, or anyone connected with the MCB. This letter has nothing to do with calming Muslim anger, and everything to do with raising the profile of Ed Husain and his mates.

I also assume it was Inayat who wrote the statement from the MCB, issued on 4th January, which said this:

We urge our affiliates to advise British Muslims to come together with fellow citizens in a broad based, peaceful civil society campaign to call for justice. We all must send a strong message that politics does work and that political, rather than violent solutions, can make a difference.

Which is at least as clear as this weak PR effort, and far more helpful. I’m no fan of the MCB, but they’re considerably more credible and representative than this self-selected bunch.

More ‘faith leaders’ speak out, and the far right might be stirring things up:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5525164.ece

Hmm, that might also explain some of the posts in this thread.

Was the Bishop of Southwark not the one who got pissed and stole children’s Xmas presents?

I don’t find it difficult to imagine the white supremacist far right stirring it up. Imagine huge crowds in Green Street in Upton Park during the Cricket World Cup. Many flags are being waved, notably after a game between India and Pakistan.

Later Police release a photo of a woman with chin-length blond hair who had attacked a car displaying the flag of India. They are trying to identify her, suspecting that she might have been tryign to set off conflict between Indians and Pakistanis.

Weeks later, Police bash in the door of a flat at 06:00, arrest a woman with chin-length blond hair and seize a laptop computer and various discs. The Redwatch website goes down.

A casual obsserver might wonder if the two women were one and the same.

What a shit counter-example Alan ji

Heresiarch – good point. I had assumed that they would have been asked to sign.

But in relation to Ed Hussein and the other signatories, I think you’re being a bit uncharitable.

The letter’s not perfect, but it’s written in good faith with the hope and intention of dissuading people from violence.

And there has to be good in that.

My question to Inayat? I thought of him because he is a very vocal spokesman, and because Ed Hussain says in his book that:

“every Wednesday night Inayat would pick me up and drop me off after a session of Koran recitation, religious discussion, anti-Semitism and good food”

at the house of Abu Luqman,

“a true Palestinian, trained by Shaikh Yasin and a member of Hamas”.

That is not what you said. In just one example, the footage taken at Srebrenica (why did the morons film it?) showed an Orthodox priest blessing Slobodan Davidovic et al.

And the West was duly revolted about Yugoslavia, and took action.
Where is the action taken by the Muslim world against the far greater number of atrocities committed in its name in the last few decades?

Besides, the Madrid train bombings were not suicide.

I am sure that makes a huge difference.

Tevya,
How precisely do you know it’s “written in good faith”. Don’t look like it to me. Looks like the standard shit from the usual suspects to me.

On Sunday I attended a peace rally. It was organised by Jews and (abysmally) I was one of the few gentiles there. There were eloquent Jewish and gentile speakers and we concluded with “God Saved The Queen” and the Israeli National Anthem in full chorus. We drowned out the lunatic trots and beards and JFJFP self-haters despite their inchoate chanting. We won in Manchester. Civilization won. That’s what matters. That is always the only thing that ever matters.

It is time to take sides. You can choose the side of a liberal democratic first world state or you can choose the side of utter lunatics. It is everyone’s choice just as it is mine to call those who choose the latter the cunts they truly are.

Your choice is simple: the only civilized state in the ME or the tyranny of camel-fucking ragheads.

This is a public service announcement for the from Those Who Remember the War in the Former Yugoslavia

Indeed.

Christianity is just as bloody as Islam. It just has better apologetics for it.

Pablo @ 15 January 2009, 10:36 pm

“What a shit counter-example Alan ji”

It wasn’t meant to be a counter-example, just two real (and possibly connected) events about two miles from home that might yet be relevant to recent criminal damage to business premises.

And please write Ji with a capital J. I don’t care, but devotees of Mohandas Ghandi might.

Nearly Oxfordian:

because he always does when the writer is a Moslem, and never believes anything when he is an Israeli Jew.
And he talks about bigotry …

What on earth? Do you have any evidence on which to base this foul allegation?

Morgoth,
Christianity might have been as bloodthirsty as Islam.

Islam is last man standing in the slaughtering stakes.

Big difference. Christianity (and Judaism) don’t do that any more. Islam does. Christianity was founded by a genuine preacher of peace. Islam was founded by a war-mongering scumbag. The apple does not fall far from the tree. Ask Newton on that score,

A couple of Arab friends of mine turned up to the demonstration against Iranian funding of Hamas outside the Iranian Embassy this evening. They told phoned me an hour ago and told me they felt uncomfortable by the attitude of those present and left after half an hour. Unless you give Arabs and Muslims who are genuinely against Islamic extremism and terrorism, you will alienate them just like these two guys were alienated and this will be a victory for extremists. As far as I can gather in terms of their hatred, the pro-Israeli lot are as bad as the anti-Israeli lot. Unless you are willing to accept people’s good faith, you will never see peace. And perhaps there are a sizeable number – even a majority – on either side who are happy to cheer on this zero-sum war. It’s really depressing and I couldn’t give a shit about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict any more. Whether the bombs are against Ashkelon or Gaza, they are fired with the same hatred in mind. All over a shitty piece of land.

And please write Ji with a capital J. I don’t care, but devotees of Mohandas Ghandi might.

What the fuck? You’re some guy called Alan who has decided to add the honorific of ‘ji’ at the end of their name? And then tells me to write it with a capital letter like Gandhi? Fuck that. That’s just about the most pompous and funny thing I’ve ever read in my life.

Listen mate, in Indian culture, you don’t decide to be addressed as ‘ji’ yourself, you are addressed in that way if you deserve the respect, either by seniority or by being a person deserving of respect for your good deeds or good standing. You don’t go around calling yourself that! It’s like some precious prig demanding everyone addresses him as ‘Sir’.

Alan ‘Ji’ my arse.

Nearly Oxfordian – To be honest I don’t really care if people are anti-Semitic or not, as long as they keep it to themselves. I see it more as their problem than mine and I don’t presume that we will ever be able to rid the world of racism or all the other “isms”. From what I have seen of British society in the two years that I have been here, the attempt to eradicate prejudices through institutional finger wagging obviously doesn’t work. People might know that they can’t use certain words etc. but it doesn’t stop them thinking and believing racist or sexist things. In fact sometimes I think it makes it worse – racism, sexism and ageism are still very much alive and kicking in the workplace and elsewhere, but very much disguised and therefore more difficult to tackle . Let’s be honest – all this diversity lark is hypocritical and a distinct case of box-ticking.
Anyway, the bottom line is that as far as I’m concerned people can think what they like of me, but they cannot act on it in words or actions. And that of course includes trying to bomb me.

Pablo: I think Alanji is pulling legs.

Oh I hope not Dan, Mahatma Alan Ji sounds so much pompous fun actually.

Hopefully ordinary Muslims will take notice. Don’t expect a charitable response from MPACUK, HT etc because Ed and Maajid’s names are there. The hardcore Salafis will also denounce it because Usama Hasan put his name to it. They think he’s a apostate, you know! I just hope the extremist fringes really don’t have much support!

My support for the letter and it’s validity and intent is furnished. Many thanks.

Now let’s hope Israel leans back and analyze the situation. If we are to have any long term peace agreement with our rival Palestinians (and the rest of the world, for that matter), a more broad-mindedness well thought-about systematic plan needs to be a top priority.

Now covered by the BBC : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7831897.stm

Not exactly a huge turnout of signatories is it. Good on them, though.

Christianity was founded by a genuine preacher of peace.

You owe me another irony meter, mine has just exploded again.

Christianity is just as bloody as Islam. Morgoth, conflating the two doesn’t help in any analysis.

And the West was duly revolted about Yugoslavia, and took action. Where is the action taken by the Muslim world against the far greater number of atrocities committed in its name in the last few decades?

That statement does help.

And I would also like to poiont out that with regards to Yugoslavia that Serbia was fighting for a nationalist cause, something that included attacks against fellow Christian Croates. they goal was a ‘Greater Serbia’.

The tone of the Bosnian struggle was far more religious, jihadist, and Bosnia’s leaders were confirmed Islamists, some of whom were recieving funding from Saudi Arabia. Their ultimate goal was the dissemination and propagation of Islam, and to judge by the appearance of Sarajevo these days, they’ve succeeded in spades..

Your one-size-fits-all approach, Morgoth, misses important distinctions like that.

Nearly Oxfordian @ 15 January 2009, 8:23 pm

“carefully drafted letter

It sure is. It is very careful not to condemn murder of Israeli Jews. It is careful to mention Gaza as an escape route from having to be unambiguous in their moral indignation.”

Patience. It was drafted by a few Muslims to support many other Muslims who are having their ears bent by Hezb-ut-Tahrir, Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat-e-Islami and suchlike fringe groups and could do with a bit of support and encouragement.

Pablo @ 16 January 2009, 1:00 am

I’m beginning to think you might be someone I know…

The story is as follows. The love of my life, especially when she is trying to tell me what to do and I’ve gone into lockdown mode or I’m not taking any notice, is in the habit of shortening my family name to its first letter. (Just in case you’re too short-tempered to guess, that is G).

All the Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi people who know both of us and have heard this find it most amusing, since its very clear that exceptional respect is not what she is expressing.

So when I was deciding what to call myself on blogs….

It would have been nice if the letter had condemned the executions of Arabs in Gaza by Hamas.

As for civilian deaths in Gaza caused by badly aimed fire from the I.D.F. – every civilian death is tragic, but we are not talking about Bomber Harris style indifference (if it was indifference – I never met Harris so I can not judge his private feelings on the matter) here.

If the I.D.F. cared as little for civilian life as the Allies did during World War II there would not be a Gaza after two weeks bombing and shelling (as the place is wide upon to air attack) – and most of the one and half million inhabitants would be dead.

“That does not justify a single civilian death – and there may have been hundreds” – I agree, but at least the I.D.F. is trying to avoid civilian casualties. Whereas Hamas wants civilian deaths – both Israeli and Arab.

As a Muslim friend told me today privately… “I am 100 per cent sure that Muslims are behind this wave of anti-semitism. I’d bet my hijab on it.”

read quran koran
there is muslim and non muslim
muhammad ordered, read quran for the proof, to kill the meccan
who did not want to emigrate (first to abissinia) to Yathrib
the explicit order of Allah (god of muslims) in quran is:Kill non muslims where ever you find them