Harry's Place

Terrible yet predictable. :(

That article in Spiked ends with this paragraph:-

What we seem to be witnessing today is the rise, not of old-fashioned racist anti-Semitism, but of cultural anti-Semitism – the projection of disillusionment with Western culture and values on to Israel, also known, in our politically illiterate times, as ‘the Jews’.

I thought that was Spiked fancy talk and far fetched theory. The attacks that have been happening look to me like good old-fashioned anti-Semitism.

AP had this story:

“Anti-Israel protest turns violent
1 hour ago

A demonstration against Israeli attacks on Gaza ended in violence after protesters looted and damaged shops, police said.

Scotland Yard is investigating the damage in central London, which was thought to be targeted at coffee shop chain Starbucks for the second week running.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: “(It) is believed to be two branches of Starbucks, one in Shaftesbury Avenue, junction with Rupert Street and one in Piccadilly. Windows have been smashed and shops looted.”"

Is the same Starbuck’s shop?

We are all Starbucks.

I hope Starbuck’s sues George Galloway and who have instigated this vandalism.

must be that vast left wing media conspiracy.

I never though thought the day would come when pickets to defend Starbucks would have to be organised.

I suppose these “Warriors” feel super-manly, now that they have engaged in a Jihad against Coffee.

Starbucks fully supports Bush’s war of terror and has opened a Starbucks in Afghanistan for the US invaders – they like to do there bit to help the occupation.

Morons.

“A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: “(It) is believed to be two branches of Starbucks, one in Shaftesbury Avenue, junction with Rupert Street and one in Piccadilly. Windows have been smashed and shops looted.””

Is the same Starbuck’s shop?”

The one I saw (and took pictures of) was the Rubert Street corner one. I didn’t see the one in Picadilly, but I did see lots of police lights on the corner when I exited Leicester Square, si I guess that’s what that was all about.

Not only are the press remaining remarkably mum, to the best of my knowledge the government have nothing to say on the subject either.
I sent a letter to the cabinet yesterday reminding them of their responsibility for the property and safety of all citizens of this country – including of course the Jewish ones.
I’m not holding my breath.

Just because there was A hoax letter:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-starbucks.html

Doesn’t mean to say there is no substance to the Israel link; as even that Snopes pages itself acknowledges:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-starbucks.html

He has won an award for is word in promoting trade wit Israel!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Schultz#Awards

Absolute morons.

I’m going to set up websites and publish adverts and flyers for my local:

Zion jobcentre

Zion Co-Op

Zion local authority

Zion Catholic church

Zion disco

Zion cemetary

Zion …

.. you get my drift?

How big of a weenie do you have to be to attack a StarBuck’s and act like it is some sort of accomplishment?

And when are they going to start arresting these weeniepunks? At least bloody them up a bit.

It was done by protesters from todays Gaza demonstration

17.01.2009 19:18
on Indymedia:

That window was smashed around 5pm by a large group of several hundred demonstrators who had left the rally for Gaza in Trafalgar Square and were trying to make their way to the Israeli embassy. I saw the crowd of protesters coming up Charing Cross Road and then make their way down Shaftsbury Avenue and then onto Piccaddilly where half of them got corralled by police into a kettle opposite Grean Park tube station. The other half headed back east and then up Bond Street before dispersing.

As David Rosenberg says on the other thread, just a few people getting out of hand.

Odious acts, by a bunch of anti-semitic idiots – Islamic wannabe tough-boys, toytown trots and anarchists – I hope the perpetrators are caught and punished appropriately.

But please – using expressions like Kristallwoche are an unnecessary exaggeration and belittle the memory of Kristallnacht. Retain a sense of proportion – and show respect to those who perished in Nazi Germany.

I have looked on Facebook to see whether there are any Support Starbucks groups which I can join, but alas there are not. There is one group which tells me to ‘Boycott StarBucks , They Support Israel (Zionism), Homosexuality & More !!!’

Blimey! Israel AND the Gays?? I <3 Starbucks!

As for “cultural anti-semitism” I’d like to claim first dibs on Spiked – I mentioned it here on the 10th – http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/10/hey-ho-israel-has-gotta-go/ – about 20 down.

As for Starbucks, can’t stand the place, but they’ll get my custom, and I look forward to punching the front teeth out of any Nazi that has a crack…

Old school antisemitism = Jews are a fundamentally Middle-eastern people who don’t belong in Europe. If they won’t understand this, we’ll just have to teach them the hard way.

New antisemitism = Jews are a fundamentally European people who don’t belong in the Middle-East. If they won’t understand this, them over there will just have to teach them the hard way. And oh what the hell, let’s have a go at them here too.

You can’t stop progress.

“But please – using expressions like Kristallwoche are an unnecessary exaggeration and belittle the memory of Kristallnacht. Retain a sense of proportion – and show respect to those who perished in Nazi Germany.”

I agree. We have, over the past few weeks, experienced the sickening misuse of the Holocaust by those who hate Israel, comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto and Concentration Camps, as well as the usual misuse of the memory of Apartheid.

Let those who are supportive of Israel not fall into the same trap.

Kristallnacht was government sponsored mass destruction of Jewish owned property, and assaults and murders of Jews themselves. What has been happening over the last few weeks, is not comparable.

At the same time, what has happened is a disgrace to any country that calls itself civilised, and our government must do more to prevent disgusting thugs from importing world conflicts to the streets of the UK.

I also wonder what these “protesters” are going to do with their spare time if a cease fire comes into existence? Then again I suppose they don’t need an excuse to justify more displays of their hatred.

The longer our pitiful leaders (all parties) stay silent on such matters, the worse it will get and the harder it will be to stop. Any parent knows that bad behaviour has to be nipped in the bud. Leave it and the child will become more angry, more unpleasant and more petulant when you finally snap and chastise him.

This is deadly serious. Such behaviour needs unanimous and vehement opprobrium from the top. We can write with some detachment about Kristallnacht because it happened over 70 years ago, but soon some of us may feel the visceral fear the the Jews of those days felt, and it will cease to be an academic issue.

Topical articles from PajamasMedia …

“Europe’s estrangement from Israel”

“Is the NYPD siding with anti-Israel protesters?” (HP & David T get a hat tip)

I think that a campaign to smash supposedly Jewish businesses, fueled by the racist and lying rhetoric of as significant a figure in Islamist politics as Qaradawi, is justly compared to Kristalnacht.

“Kristallnacht was government sponsored mass destruction of Jewish owned property, and assaults and murders of Jews themselves. What has been happening over the last few weeks, is not comparable.”

My feeling is that the people inciting these acts and carrying out these acts are driven by the same pathelogical hatred as the Nazis, and the only reason why this hasn’t been more widespread is that they are NOT in power and would NOT get away with it. But what they are attempting to do -and would do if they could – is no different.

“is not comparable”

But same principal. Were British and American stores trashed during the war in Iraq? No. There’s just something about the Jews…

Kristallwoche continues

Please.

PLEASE.

Don’t use irresponsible language.

Kristall–(period of time in German) is only when government encouragement is involved.

Israel is not committing a genocide in Gaza and the Jewish community in Europe is not suffering a pogrom.

But please – using expressions like Kristallwoche are an unnecessary exaggeration and belittle the memory of Kristallnacht

Hear hear.

A bunch of thugs trashed a coffee shop. Disgraceful, criminal, and racist, but it’s hardly the Holocaust.

If you object to anti-zionsist flinging inaccurate accusations of Nazism around, you might want to try not doing the same thing.

In fact, if I had one wish, it would be that everyone of all political stripes and extremes stopped calling each other Nazis for a few days (self-identifying Nazis, excepted). I’ve heard little else for the last month.

Israel is not committing a genocide in Gaza and the Jewish community in Europe is not suffering a pogrom.

A Jewish man, who lives down the street from my father, was beaten up on his doorstep last week.

Kristallnacht was government sponsored mass destruction of Jewish owned property, and assaults and murders of Jews themselves.

So, where’s the strident vocal condemnation of the targeting of Jews and allegedly Jewish businesses by your government? Silence = tacit endorsement.

A Jewish man, who lives down the street from my father, was beaten up on his doorstep last week.
And, this bears repeating before this is dismissed as an isolated occurrence:
A young Orthodox man was viciously beaten after last Wednesday’s pro-Israel rally in what is perhaps the most serious incident.

Daniel Lowe, from Hendon, a bearded Orthodox Jew who wears a kippah, was a founding member of MuJewz, the Muslim-Jewish dialogue group at Oxford
University. He had attended last Wednesday night’s pro-Israel rally in Kensington and was on his way to visit friends nearby afterwards when he was attacked.

Just a few people at a demo getting out of hand

If people were smashing up supposedly Muslim-supporting stores in London and beating-up Muslims I’d speak up for them too. It’s about universal human values. But somehow, it seems, Jews always seem to be more harshly judged than everyone else. Muslim nations commit genocide (against Muslims) in Darfur, Mugabe lets his own people starve to death, the US and UK kill tens of thousands of Arabs in the name of peace, but its the Jews who are targeted. Funny that.

“A Jewish man, who lives down the street from my father, was beaten up on his doorstep last week.”

The situation is horrible, and there is genuine fear in the Jewish community both here and in Europe. I, while traveling on the train the other day, (wearing a cap not a yarmulke just in case) thought twice about reading my Hamodia, as I was concerned of the possible reactions of some of my fellow pasasangers. Should I have to even think this way in modern Britain?

We have all been exposed to comments over the last few weeks, and for children, it has been very distressing.

But we still know we can turn to the police if we are harmed, we know, that the government, as imcompitant as it is, would want to prevent any harm being done to us. We know that many of our non-Jewish fellow citizens would come to our aid, if required.

As such this should not be compared to Kristalnacht, were Jews had no one to turn to. Where the very instuments of state, that should have protected them, were turned against them instead.

The intentions of these thugs may be the same as the Nazis, but the context is very different.

A Jewish man, who lives down the street from my father, was beaten up on his doorstep last week.

An appalling act of anti-semitic thuggery, just as all such racist attacks are disgraceful acts.

But I repeat – the events of the last week are not comparable to a state-led pogrom which left nearly 100 people dead, 200 synagogues razed and at least 25,000 people deported to concentration camps.

That’s why it’s cultural anti-semitism btw. If I needed to spell it out.

Jewish community in Europe is not suffering a pogrom.

If you are a Jew, you are 60 times as likely to be abused, verbally or physically as if you are a Muslim.

The rate of attacks on Jews from Muslims, as opposed to other groups, is 30 times as high per head of the relevant population.

Not yet a pogrom, but not for want of trying by some people.

the US and UK kill tens of thousands of Arabs in the name of peace, but its the Jews who are targeted.

Americans, which includes American Jews, have the right to protect themselves. Try it. It works.

It’s important however to point out to bright-eyed followers of Seamus, who are “All Hamas Now”, that they are, effectively, Nazis. Albeit pre-1933, and long may they remain so.

If people were spreading racist lies about supposedly Muslim shops, and smashing and daubing them with racist graffiti, I’d hope that we’d stand outside them, demonstrating in support against the fascists.

Dave, we did in 1940, no thanks to you ;-)

“I, while traveling on the train the other day, (wearing a cap not a yarmulke just in case) thought twice about reading my Hamodia, as I was concerned of the possible reactions of some of my fellow pasasangers. Should I have to even think this way in modern Britain?”

The fact that you know have to think about this shows to me, precisely what the proportion is. That such fear can be generated by just a few speeches and a handful of attacks. And I fear the wave of antisemitic hysteria is only getting started.

the events of the last week are not comparable to a state-led pogrom

You reap what you sow, alas. After weeks of lazy comparisons between the Gaza assault and the Holocaust, it might be a little bit late to ask for the inflammatory rhetoric to be reined in, don’t you think?

These are not isolated incidents.

Think about this – if there were a chain of bagel shops in London called ‘Goldstein’s Bagels’ how many of them do you think would still have their front windows intact this week?

The only reason that there are less incidents is that there are not so many easily identifiable Jewish shops.

But I repeat – the events of the last week are not comparable to a state-led pogrom which left nearly 100 people dead, 200 synagogues razed and at least 25,000 people deported to concentration camps.

That is true.

This is also unprecedented in Britain, at least in our lifetimes.

“Anglo-Jewry is in the middle of the worst outbreak of antisemitism in Britain since the Community Security Trust started keeping records a quarter of a century ago.

Since the start of the Israeli offensive into Gaza on December 27, more than 150 incidents across the country have been recorded. “

http://www.thejc.com/articles/worst-wave-hate-quarter-a-century

“The only reason that there are less incidents is that there are not so many easily identifiable Jewish shops.”

I not quite sure what you mean, there are many easily identifiable Jewish shops in London, perhaps not in central London, but plenty in Stamford Hill, Golders Green etc.

Went into the lavs at a McDonalds today and the only graffiti was a Star of David with the word ‘Zion’ written underneath it. Possibly the only graffiti that’s ever cheered me up!

Well we would really be talking pogrom if they started going into those districts and hitting those kinds of shops.

Let’s hope that the police in those areas are on the guard.

Yes Yossi, but those are shops are nowhere near where these “peace protesters” are “protesting”.

But somehow, it seems, Jews always seem to be more harshly judged than everyone else.

1) Cubans are more harshly judged. According to the US, Cuba is one of the worst human rights offenders in the world, above Saudi Arabia and China. Also, a 45-yr-old blockade is in place.

Is Israel similarly punished?

2) Israel is the only country that claims to be the most moral country in the world. Such extraordinary claims invite –and get– close scrutiny.

Anyway, what about this Israeli ceasefire?

If the Israelis have any sense they will just let Hamas fire rockets for a few days. Show the world who the real warmongers are.

“Kristallnacht was government sponsored mass destruction of Jewish owned property, and assaults and murders of Jews themselves. What has been happening over the last few weeks, is not comparable.”

You’re right, Yossi. This isn’t 1930s Germany. It’s the UK in the 21st century. And gangs of thugs are roaming around smashing the windows of “Jewish-owned” businesses, attacking Jews in the street, rampaging through a Jewish neighbourhood, burning Jewish symbols, and urging shoppers to boycott “Jewish-run” companies.

It’s not Kristallnacht. But for our grandparents’ generation, esp those who grew up in London during the Blackshirt era, it will all feel very familiar.

(It’s correct, as some have done, to point out that nobody has been killed. But only because of good fortune and the presence of a fire escape.)

From our Government we hear nothing. From the “antifascist-Left” we hear nothing. The police mumble something about “a tiny minority of individuals” being involved. And all the while the bastards are egging each other on, filming themselves and laughing about it afterwards on websites.

If this were happening to any other minority group there would be near outrage from the liberal Establishment. Instead, we have near silence.

I fear the wave of antisemitic hysteria is only getting started.

There was anti-Muslim hysteria after 9/11. A mosque and Pakistani community centre were fire-bombed in Edinburgh. Not only Muslims, but Sikhs and Hindus were attacked, since the racist idiots didn’t know the difference. It died away. With the ceasefire, this hysteria should calm down.

But it is horrible and shocking, and it looks like it’s not coming from the usual BNP type of thugs who commit racist attacks.

“If the Israelis have any sense they will just let Hamas fire rockets for a few days. Show the world who the real warmongers are.”

If the hundreds of rockets before the start of this conflict didn’t show the world who the warmongers are, then I’m afraid nothing will.

“If this were happening to any other minority group there would be near outrage from the liberal Establishment. Instead, we have near silence.”

Your right there would be near outrage, and there indeed was, after the attacks on Muslims following the London bombings.

The near silence is to my mind a national shame.

That is sadly very true Joseph.

I keep thinking what kind of media coverage we would have had if after 7/7 people started smashing up kebab shops. To the great credit of the British people there was no such wave of violence in response to the murder of 52 people in London by Islamist terrorists.

I also keep wondering why the media are so quiet about this? Has the word been put out to keep things quiet to avoid copycat cases?

After weeks of lazy comparisons between the Gaza assault and the Holocaust, it might be a little bit late to ask for the inflammatory rhetoric to be reined in, don’t you think?

Indeed. I can’t speak of J in particular, but a lot of people who’d previously thrown around casual accusations of Nazism or Apartheid are becoming very rattled when it’s flung straight back at them. See this petulant comment at Pickled Politics:

The hypocrisy of Harry’s Place is plain for all to see presently in its banner image: the same site which criticises others for comparing Israel with the Nazis is currently comparing the idiotic tiny minority smashing Starbucks’ windows with… the Nazis and Kristallnacht. Which is more out of proportion? Forgive me for thinking it might just be the latter.

(It’s one thing for an Internet comment to discuss another Internet comment. Another to dedicate a blog-post to one Internet comment. Another entirely to do so for an expunged Internet comment.)

Far more than the trashing of some Starbucks, it’s the silence– the lack of outrage– in some quarters that disturbs me.

Does anyone know where John Game was?

YossiK. It shouldn’t but it does get to you. The atavistic Kristalnacht lurch in the stomach when you see it, my impulse like yours not to read Hamodia or JC on the train- really got out of hand when travelling by plane last and wondering whether to pack my Jerusalam Reports in the hold baggage rather than read them on the plane. Images of past hijacks where passengers identified as Jewish..

But I repeat – the events of the last week are not comparable to a state-led pogrom which left nearly 100 people dead, 200 synagogues razed and at least 25,000 people deported to concentration camps.

No matter how you like to present it, Israel and Jews associated with Israel are being actively vilified by the mainstream European Left and the Muslim community and now are physically intimidated by Islamist youths. One is trivialises Kristallnacht by drawing attention to this phenomenon.

The liberal Left Hamasistas have no compunction in drawing parallels between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto and the Holocaust. If the Holocaust has taught Jewish communities anything it is the importance of not keeping quite in the face of covert or overt racism which is what anti-semitism is even under the guise of anti-Zionism.

If the European Jewish communities do not mobilise quickly against this threat they will soon find themselves caught between the Left/Islamist alliance one the one hand and the fascist right which will rise in reaction to this alliance.

I, while traveling on the train the other day, (wearing a cap not a yarmulke just in case) thought twice about reading my Hamodia

You should have seen the looks I got when I got on the train with “The Case For Israel”.

I agree that this level of antisemitic attacks is unprecedented, and it concerns me greatly, but I really don’t think it’s constructive to draw unfounded comparisons with Krystallnacht (and it is unfounded, at this stage, however worrying the current situation is) and then ask people not to compare Israel with Nazi Germany.

After weeks of lazy comparisons between the Gaza assault and the Holocaust, it might be a little bit late to ask for the inflammatory rhetoric to be reined in, don’t you think?

We should descend to the lowest level of our opponents, why??

I would like to see a complete moratorium on all uses of Nazi-related words unless the link is direct. The overuse of such terminology has been so widespread that minor local disturbances over mail delivery now have people claiming things like “The mayor is worse than Hitler”.

Right I’m off to buy a Starbucks coffee.

I wonder what the reaction of the Trot-janissaries would be if a Darfur refugee bombed the PSC offices.

The comments on this site never cease to amaze me.

Anti-semitic thugs continue to attack what they perceive as Jewish targets in the UK and Europe then people come on here complaining about the comparison of this with Kristallnacht?

“If the European Jewish communities do not mobilise quickly against this threat they will soon find themselves caught between the Left/Islamist alliance one the one hand and the fascist right which will rise in reaction to this alliance.”

Exactly.

Well I hope when found that exemplary sentences are handed out for these racist attacks so redolent of 30s Germany.

via Mark Steyn, the Herald Tribune finds even-handedness in France.

Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie has condemned the “revolting attack” in the suburban town of Fontenay-sous-Bois and says authorities are working to find the perpetrators.

The ministry said in a statement Friday that the attackers shouted anti-Semitic threats at the man as they stabbed him four times with a knife in the Thursday evening attack.

It did not provide details on the man’s condition.

Alliot-Marie has said France has experienced a clear increase in anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim attacks since Israel began an assault against Hamas in Gaza on Dec. 27.

Anti-Muslim attacks? Anyone? Anyone?

I suppose these “Warriors” feel super-manly, now that they have engaged in a Jihad against Coffee.

Of course. They’ve graduated from kid’s jihads like ice cream.

http://weblog.nightstudies.net/?p=11

England has such a long history of anti-Semitism (with the exception of the Nazi period, far worse than Germany’s), this orgy of attacks shouldn’t be a surprise at all. Nor should the disdain and disinterest of the major media and the government be a surprise, either. People like YossiUK will probably have to fend for themselves and eventually, probably sooner rather than later, decide whether to continue to live like a hunted rat is worth all the pluses that Great Britain has to offer, whatever they may be. Imagine having to hide your religion when going out in public. In NYC, that would be inconceivable; ditto for a large part of the U.S.; even in the South.

I’ve watched England’s slide into craven capitulation and have wondered why? Sure, there’s lots of posturing and hand fluttering by important people, but at the end of the day, YossiUK feels he has to hide who he is. From the distance of the Atlantic Ocean, England looks a lot like Burgess’s Clockwork Orange, with some slight adjustments. Why the English nomenclatura feels so aligned with Muslims, I cannot fathom, but aligned they are.

YossiUK (and others), my advise: Leave as soon as you can. It’s not going to get better.

A bit OT, but can anybody suggest a good place to buy merchandise (bumper stickers, badges, etc) expressing support for Israel & IDF specidically realted to the Gaza self-defence operation ?

I’ve been Googling for 5 minutes and can’t find anywhere other than CafePress which also sells pro-Hamas merchadise, so I don’t want to buy there.

http://www.zahal.org

I agree that this level of antisemitic attacks is unprecedented, and it concerns me greatly, but I really don’t think it’s constructive to draw unfounded comparisons with Krystallnacht (and it is unfounded, at this stage, however worrying the current situation is)

Kristallnacht was the culmination of more than five years of discrimination and persecution by the nazis so perhaps it would be fairer to say that events right now look very much like those leading up to Kristallnacht.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/849351.html

This doesn’t sound too good.

Alec: Actually, I haven’t so much as wrote a single comparison between the assault on Gaza and the Nazis, because it’s ludicrous and needs to be criticised. It’s not quite as ludicrous however as referring to racist morons smashing a few windows as a new Kristallnacht, or David T regarding a man being beaten up on his doorstep as a pogrom. It seems you can give it but then when you make almost exactly the same spurious and ahistorical comparisons that you can’t take it.

Mr Danger – Gene covered that here in another post recently. Note that the Miami Herlad article is rather misleading in that it gives the clear impression that ALL arab parties have been banned, which as far as I can tell from other coverage, they have not.

This seems to be about the extent of the Independent’s coverage of the wave of anti-semitism sweeping Britain – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-jews-attacked-for-progaza-solidarity-1418909.html

septicisle: I disagree. The lens of history is useful in understanding how events can morph and what their consequences can be; and if and how they are a harbinger of the future. I’m sure David T is quite well aware that this explosion of anti-Semitism is not orchestrated by the government. And yet, when the govenment is inactive in the face of this domestic terrorism and hate mongering, well, it’s a lot like the situation Blacks faced in the American south, when the government turned a blind eye to lynchings and other forms of terrorism against them: the message was, it approves.

This blog by a policeman is shocking and eye opening about the levels of violence of some of the protestors

http://sheepdogsandwolves.blogspot.com/

I give up.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/849351.html

This doesn’t sound too good.

See my post here.

DavidW: I haven’t found any Operation Cast Lead Bumper Stickers. You can make your own by buying the paper at stationary/office supply stores. Find a design you like and copy it with the words you want and print it and cover with sealant.

One idea is to print the graphic with the IDF soldier in front of the baby carriage shooting at the Hamas terrorist shooting behind the baby carriage.

Mr. Danger:

Parliament spokesman Giora Pordes said the election committee voted overwhelmingly in favor of the motion, accusing the country’s Arab parties of incitement, supporting terrorist groups and refusing to recognize Israel’s right to exist. Arab lawmakers have traveled to some of Israel’s staunchest enemies, including Lebanon and Syria.

Treason is certainly a sufficient reason to ban a political party.

Septiscle, as I said elsewhere, if you had merely said they were equally unfounded, it would have been un-noteworthy. As it is, you dismiss real-life actions as being carried out by marginal idiots – which may be true – and direct the full force of your ire against Internet comments.

If you wish to get angry about something, get angry about the first. It is first of all based on erroneous information about the Starbucks director and profits, and secondly expressly intended to make a population-group unable to operate in this country.

It seems you can give it but then when you make almost exactly the same spurious and ahistorical comparisons that you can’t take it.

No, stop right there. That was precisely what I said. Do you know the rules about turning a statement back on your interlocutor?

Well, breaking windows in Starbucks is far more serious than dropping white phosphorus bombs in Gaza. I hope that the Euston Group can get its act together and persuade one of its members to immolate himself in protest of these attacks just like those Buddhist monks did in Vietnam back in 1965. I nominate Norm Geras.

My feeling is that the people inciting these acts and carrying out these acts are driven by the same pathelogical hatred as the Nazis

You may be right. Or maybe it’s some of the same anti capitalist far left types who used to smash up McDonalds, thinking this is a clever thing to do in the spirit of boycotting Israel. Islamists or Nazis don’t tend to see the world in economics, which makes me suspect this is anarchist fruit loops rather than racists.

The problem is, if they did want to smash up an Israeli business, however misguided and thuggish, how could they do that without it being claimed they are targeting Jews because they are Jewish, not because of the scenes of kids being blown up on the TV every night for the last three weeks? Seems a tricky one.

Well, breaking windows in Starbucks is far more serious than dropping white phosphorus bombs in Gaza.

Is Starbucks financing this? Wait a minute, it’s all bollocks!

Penny, what do you think about Hamas sending phosphorus shells into Israel? I mean, I keep hearing about Israel’s legitimate (according to the Red Cross) use of white phosphorus as a smoke screen, but I’ve not heard anything about Hamas’ use of phosphorus as an actual weapon. Any thoughts?

Pemberton: You yourself believe that the war in Gaza is more serious than trashing Starbucks. Therefore, it is up to you to douse yourself with petrol and ignite. Come on! Hamas needs your help!

There was anti-Muslim hysteria after 9/11. A mosque and Pakistani community centre were fire-bombed in Edinburgh. Not only Muslims, but Sikhs and Hindus were attacked, since the racist idiots didn’t know the difference. It died away. With the ceasefire, this hysteria should calm down.

I agree; just like the attacks on Muslims after terror attacks, it should pipe down a bit when this thing has been over for a few days and the anger subsides.

But I don’t think we should be naive about this – some apparently Israeli linked multi national windows have been smashed in the short term, but the Islamists won’t likely discriminate when they let another suicide bomb off. Whatever colour and creed you happen to be in this country, we all are more at risk because of this Israeli operation; all the reports from credible moderate Muslims in the front line in the struggle against Islamofascisism say this has set back the cause many years.

I haven’t so much as wrote a single comparison between the assault on Gaza and the Nazis, because it’s ludicrous and needs to be criticised.

Can anyone point me to criticisms made by anti-Israel campaigners against the recent comments by Gerald Kaufman comparing the Israelis to the Nazis?

Septicisle – you have a blog, post a link to the criticism you made of Kaufman, please.

I’m sure there are other criticisms posted to Indymedia, Lenin’s Tomb, Socialist Unity, and many other people concerned not to exaggerate the situation with misleading analogies to the 1930s.

Right?

According to Sky News, Hamas has declared that they will continue fighting Israel, despite Israel’s ceasefire.

My feeling is that the people inciting these acts and carrying out these acts are driven by the same pathelogical hatred as the Nazis.

You may be right. Or maybe it’s some of the same anti capitalist far left types who used to smash up McDonalds, thinking this is a clever thing to do in the spirit of boycotting Israel.

“There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will.” (Hermann Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, London, T. Butterworth, 1940)

I thought Hitler said the Bolshevics were all Jews?

“But I don’t think we should be naive about this – some apparently Israeli linked multi national windows have been smashed in the short term, but the Islamists won’t likely discriminate when they let another suicide bomb off. Whatever colour and creed you happen to be in this country, we all are more at risk because of this Israeli operation; all the reports from credible moderate Muslims in the front line in the struggle against Islamofascisism say this has set back the cause many years.”

What exactly is your point, Mike? Your argument is incoherent.

Israelis should sit back and let themselves be pulverized by Islamofascists so that other people wouldn’t be put at risk?

You are giving the very islamofascists you want to fight against a veto over how and when we should fight back. According to you any resistance to Islamic inspired attacks will only lead to more attacks and put more “people at risk.”

How do you propose to defeat Islamofascism?

Whatever colour and creed you happen to be in this country, we all are more at risk because of this Israeli operation; all the reports from credible moderate Muslims in the front line in the struggle against Islamofascisism say this has set back the cause many years.

Those moderate Muslims also claim that the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq have had the same effect, Mike. Yet you have been a strong supporter of those operations. Care to explain the dichotomy?

Oh fuck off Sea Kitten. Kaufman has more right than anyone to make those comparisons if he wishes to, as you well know. That’s quite different to morphing the Star of David into a swastika for a demo.

Alec, if you seriously think that smashing Starbucks windows is directed at making this country inhospitable for Jews rather than a stupid, symbolic response by idiots who believe things they read on the internet, as Mike quite reasonably argues, then there doesn’t seem much point arguing the toss with you over it either.

Oh fuck off Sea Kitten.

You mean there have been no criticisms made by anti-Israel campaigners against Kaufman’s inflammatory rhetoric? Not even by yourself?

How surprising!

Kaufman has more right than anyone to make those comparisons if he wishes to, as you well know.

Why? Kaufman was born in the UK, not Poland, and has never faced the threat of extinction at the hands of his neighboring countries. Furthermore, he has a national platform due to his membership of parliament.

Do you agree with me that his comments were highly inaccurate and irresponsible, and likely to have encouraged the morons you condemn to see their violent actions as justified?

What exactly is your point, Mike? Your argument is incoherent.

I suppose my point is, there is a lot of concern for British Jews in this thread and criticism that the British majority is not concerned enough about their safety. However the reality is, when the Islamists start bombing they won’t discriminate. They’re not like these anti capitalists who smash a few multi national business windows; they will likely take out everybody. Israel doesn’t just put Israeli businesses at risk every time they launch one of these largely pointless wars. This should be recognised.

If Britain really was a terribly anti semitic country, as some suggest, then there would likely be much MORE outrage at the thought of taking bombs for Israel, not less.

“Oh fuck off Sea Kitten. Kaufman has more right than anyone to make those comparisons if he wishes to, as you well know.”

More right than anyone?? Wow.

Just FYI, virtually every member of my family on my mother’s side, bar my mother and her parents, were murdered by Nazis. I found his comments utterly disgusting. But thanks for letting me know that this shithead has more right than anyone to use the memory of my family members to attack Israel.

“You are giving the very islamofascists you want to fight against a veto over how and when we should fight back. According to you any resistance to Islamic inspired attacks will only lead to more attacks and put more “people at risk.””

This is an interesting point. Islamists and terrorists should never dictate your foreign policy, of course, but when it comes to someone else’s foreign policy, and you believe that foreign policy is not just, then this is a slightly different. I suppose there is a nationalistic element to my stance on this, just as the Israelis are putting their interests before Britains, but even given that, I believe the wars in Afghanistan in Iraq are entirely different morally as well. In these countries we are trying to build up the state institutions and are siding with the majority. In Gaza the Israelis have for many years done all they can to destroy the infrastructure and are opposed by 100% of the population.

If the US was still launching Falluja style operations in 40 years time, instead of engaging in serious diplomacy and trying to cut deal – like the Sunni awakening deal – then I would oppose that too.

I think the Nazi comparisons are pretty rum all round. Although the Israelis see Gaza as some sort of ghetto, its not the same as the German version.

As for Brett’s laziness: On a single night, Kristallnacht involved the murder of 91 Jews; 25,000–30,000 were arrested and deported to concentration camps; 200 synagogues were destroyed; thousands of Jewish businesses and homes were attacked.

This was part of a systematic government campaign to persecute and then annihilate Jews.

As should be barely worth mentioning, the attacks on Starbucks bear no comparison to Kristallnacht, apart from in Brett’s over fevered imagination.

Kaufman has more right than anyone to make those comparisons if he wishes to, as you well know.

How does this balance against actual survivors, living in Israel or abroad, who disagree?

That’s quite different to morphing the Star of David into a swastika for a demo.

Why? The intention is the same is the same in both cases. Please don’t tell me you’re one of those who believes in Jewish exceptionalism, as they’re Jews you agree with.

Alec, if you seriously think that smashing Starbucks windows is directed at making this country inhospitable for Jews

Yes I do. These street-thugs have expressed their belief that because Siegl is a Zionist Jew, their action are justified. Plus they augment it with falsified claims of where the profits go.

Yet you will not even entertain the possibility that these events are more serious than a blog-post. This ranks up there with Greenstock denying the actual, verifiable policy statement of Hamas for self-delusion.

Note, this is not a question of whether they’ll succeed. Rather what it’s *directed* *at*. Trashing a health-food store which stocks Palestinian products because of Hamas would be unlikely to cause all Palestinians in this country to leave, but it would be no less unacceptable for that.

Israel doesn’t just put Israeli businesses at risk every time they launch one of these largely pointless wars. This should be recognised.

What should be recognized is that you’ve become a Stopper, Mike. You are using exactly the same arguments against Israel’s right to defend itself that were used against the Afghanistan and Iraq operations.

I suppose it was only a matter of time, given the sea change in New Labour’s attitude since Blair departed the scene. Always the party man, eh?

the Israelis are putting their interests before Britains

Yes, why can these damn Israelis just put up with the Hamas rockets?

Don’t they realize the difficulties their self-defense is causing government ministers in the UK?

Could someone tell me how Gerald Kaufman who was born in Leeds in 1930 is connected to the Holocaust?

Yes, why can these damn Israelis just put up with the Hamas rockets? Don’t they realize the difficulties their self-defense is causing government ministers in the UK

Your argument is effectively the same in reverse:-

“Yes, why can these damn British just put up with windows being smashed and more Islamofundis blowing them up? Don’t they realize the difficulties their interests are causing government ministers in Israel?”

This seems to be about the extent of the Independent’s coverage of the wave of anti-semitism sweeping Britain – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-jews-attacked-for-progaza-solidarity-1418909.html

Boohoo for rabbi aharon cohen. The asshole lives round the corner from me. He was ahmadinejad’s star guest at the holocaust denial conference. The police gave the local jewish community carte blanche to throw eggs at his house (for a week anyway). Whenever any other locals (i.e. non-jews) joined in, they got reprimanded. It was quite funny (and ridiculously immature, actually) at the time.

Kristallnacht: 91 Jews were murdered; 25,000–30,000 were arrested and deported to concentration camps; 200 synagogues were destroyed; thousands of Jewish businesses and homes were attacked.

This was part of a systematic government campaign to persecute and then annihilate Jews.

So, tell me Brett, how on earth do these attacks on Starbucks bear any comparison to the event you are clearly evoking in the title of your post?

Mike “I suppose my point is, there is a lot of concern for British Jews in this thread and criticism that the British majority is not concerned enough about their safety. However the reality is, when the Islamists start bombing they won’t discriminate.”

All true, but that is a British problem

Britain’s problem is the presence of Islamofascists ready and willing to commit atrocities.

Suppose, Britain went after their Islamic terrorists and Hamas decided to send suicide bombers into Israel as revenge, would you want Israel to veto Britain’s right to self defense. Countries and communities have a right to defend themselves.

The larger question is that people need to realize that these revenge attacks based on ethnicity are racist in nature.

Muslims themselves are liable to be hit just as Jews are so it is also in their interest to educate members of their community not to attack Jews in Britain for what they think Jews elsewhere did.

Otherwise they will not have any moral basis for complaining when the same is done to them.

jd: “Could someone tell me how Gerald Kaufman who was born in Leeds in 1930 is connected to the Holocaust?”

It’s all quite confusing. I can only assume that he had family back in Europe during the Holocaust, despite being born here. However, he is often referred to as ‘Gerald Kaufman, son of Holocaust survivors’, which must mean that his parents went through the Holocaust and survived? I wonder how they had a child in the UK in 1930, but were also Holocaust survivors? Anyone else know any more details?

The other thing is, I don’t quite buy into the notion that Hamas are exactly the same as the Al Qaeda global jihad gang in Iraq and Afghanistan. If that were true then I would be much more willing to support this action. But it just doesn’t square for me – they’re an extremist party that the Palestinians voted in after years of Israel giving nothing to Fatah. Israel could have done much more to stop it getting to this stage.

“So, tell me Brett, how on earth do these attacks on Starbucks bear any comparison to the event you are clearly evoking in the title of your post?”

Benjamin, you seem quite annoyed at Brett’s comparison between Kristallnacht and the recent violence.

Where you equally or perhaps more annoyed at the far worse comparison between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto? Or the comparison between Gaza and a Concentration Camp? Comparisons which have contributed to the hatred, that has resulted in the acts of violence this thread is discussing.

shriber, well I take your point.

If we follows Mike’s reasoning to its logical end we’ll have the following: first, whenever Israel acts, the UK is more at risk; second, Israel’s existence puts the UK at risk; third, while there’s one living Jew in the world, the UK will be as risk. As soon as the last Jew disappears, every Islamist will happily integrate and become a exemplary British and European citizen. And in the meanwhile, don’t think the Islamists are putting their own interests before Britain’s.

I wasn’t the person who brought up the increase in anti semitism because of Gaza. Why is it alright to complain about the backlash against Israeli businesses but suddenly Mike wants to sacrifice all the Jews in the world for pointing out it’s not just British Jews that could potentially get whacked for what’s going on?

The fact that the British government is not financing this Kristallnacht doesn’t mean that, directly or indirectly, other governments aren’t either. Those governments that finance and promote radical Mosques and Imans are responsible for this. Thus, yes, this Kristallnacht too is backed by governments. They are the ones that are putting Britain at risk.

Britain does give a hell of a lot of support for Israel and shows a great deal of tolerance for Israel’s activities. Sometimes it would be nice to have some respect for us as well. Is that really so bad?

Where you equally or perhaps more annoyed at the far worse comparison between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto? Or the comparison between Gaza and a Concentration Camp?

Absolutely, I have done so. These comparisons are wrong.

I see little point in swapping hyperbole for hyperbole, which Brett seems to be doing. As a Zionist, I sometimes think that some Zionists’ easy comparisons to, or evocations of, the holocaust or the Nazis, when it is not appropriate, is damaging to the Zionist cause.

Tony Blair was in large part forced to resign – or least announce a timetable – for backing Israeli’s last operation. Maybe Israel could return the favour and honour his sacrifice by doing some of the things he is asking them to do in the west bank.

Just this once, I agree with Benjamin.

The analogy is overstated.

I don’t like arguments by analogy anyway, though. They tend to hide what is significant and people can reject the whole event by showing the falseness of the comparison.

The attacks on Starbucks are pretty sinister in themselves. They also show a kind of infantilism at work which is always a danger in the left. The Islamo-leftist alliances have made such infantilism even more prevalent.

Attacks on Starbucks are like sticking pins in voodoo dolls. They will be just as effective. If anything here in the US it’ll make Starbucks all the more popular since it will give people who go there the illusion of doing something dangerous.

Those governments that finance and promote radical Mosques and Imans are responsible for this.

That is all very tenuous. It certainly bears no comparison to the Nazi government’s direct involvement in Kristallnacht, which at any rate was on a far larger scale.

Shriber

Yes, infantilism is a much better way to describe these attacks on Starbucks.

I don’t think Mike wants to sacrifice the Jews: I just think he didn’t get the logical conclusions of his own argument. Because those that could potentially make Jews and others get whacked for what’s going on are using this only as an alibi. They can and do react to everything and anything: to Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq, cartoons, outdoors with women in bikinis, people drinking wine, you name it. They are the ones who define what a provocation is and how serious it is and we have to swallow that. Haven’t you ever read La Fontaine’s fable about the lamb and the wolf? There’s no argumenting with the wolf: he is always right. Thus, if you want to try and pacify Islamists, go on: begin by veiling infidel women, ban pork, outlaw non-Muslim holydays and so on. Is there any chance one day you’ll discover that nothing satisfies them? There surely are “realists” who think: look, their problem is with the Jews; if we throw the Jews under the bus, it will be OK for us. The problem is: that won’t be by far the last thing they ask you all to do. Don’t think about Israel’s interest, but think really realistically, without soothing illusions, of yours.

Sometimes it would be nice to have some respect for us as well.

I’m just not into you.

Mike “The other thing is, I don’t quite buy into the notion that Hamas are exactly the same as the Al Qaeda global jihad gang in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

Not exactly the same no. However they are both offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood and their core beliefs are pretty much the same.

Hamas stands for hamās; “haraka ‘al-muqāwama ‘al-’islāmiyya”

Al kaida are more like Trotskyites wanting to spread Islamic revolution and Shariah throughout the world and Hamas wants to build Shariah in one country at a time.

Their charter claims that any land once Muslim will always be Muslim:

http://www.i-cias.com/e.o/hamas.htm

I happen to think that it is both in Israel’s and the UK’s interest to beat imperialistic religious fanatics. Humiliating Hamas and puting its own citizens in the front line Israel was actually helping the UK. The idea is that both countries share the same enemy: Israel takes care of them in its own neighbourhood whille England does the same in her territory.

“I don’t quite buy into the notion that Hamas are exactly the same as the Al Qaeda global jihad gang …”

I agree and neither do I buy into the notion that Dracula and the Werewolf are the same guy. So what?

Read Howard Jacobson’s latest:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/howard-jacobson/howard-jacobson-theres-all-the-difference-between-a-silly-lad-and-a-murderous-racist-1418268.html

“This seems to be about the extent of the Independent’s coverage of the wave of anti-semitism sweeping Britain – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-jews-attacked-for-progaza-solidarity-1418909.html”

Not a surprise. It’s part of the strategy of denying or glossing over antisemitism while highlighting minor or fictional offenses by Jews. (Such as the oppression of the IJV by the Jewish community that CIF has been supporting for over a year).

Has anyone else noticed the rhythmic nature of the BBC reports? The pattern seems to always be the same…

“Israel says that…. but…..”

Humiliating Hamas

Humiliating Hamas is precisely not what Israel should be doing right now. The only possible war aim that would have made any sort of sense, had some sort of at least crude logic, at least temporarily, would have been Hamas’s total destruction – including its entire leadership. But that would have involved genocide.

Now, essentially, we are back to square one, but with more people dead. I think this is a failure on Israel’s part, and it has damaged its standing. The military campaign was doomed to failure on so many levels. There has to be some other way forward.

This latest by Robert Fisk is worth reading too:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos-world-when-it-comes-to-gaza-leave-the-second-world-war-out-of-it-1418270.html

I agree and neither do I buy into the notion that Dracula and the Werewolf are the same guy. So what?

Because Al Qaeda threatens the world. If they tookover a country like Afghanistan or Iraq it would be a disaster or unthinkable proportions for humanity. These are incredibly important wars to fight. However Hamas is really a single issue thing that has no chance of running Israel – totally different ball game.

zkharya

Brilliant article by Fisk; just hits so many nails on their heads. Much to agree with there whether you are pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian.

lol…the media is silent about hte outrageous thuggerry against poor helpless Starbucks, instead concentrating on minor issues like 1200 dead palestinains and the crimes against humanity in Gaza.

the world really is so unjust to people like the owners of Starbucks, I thinkw e hsould spend more time worrying about their plight. :(

la mano de d10s

Que porqueria hio de puta.

This cobarde would break glass and think he is being a revolucionario.

He sounds like “YUSUF!”

“Brilliant article by Fisk…”

Talking about international law without offering one piece of evidence to support his vain charges is a cheap shot.

While not on the scale of Kristallnacht, these attacks are surely intended to envoke the terror associated with it: if future protestors against Obama decide to do so by burning crucifixes and wearing white hoods the principle would be the same.

Those behind it should be prosecuted for hate crime or such laws are meaningless.

“la mano de d10s

Que porqueria hio de puta.

This cobarde would break glass and think he is being a revolucionario.

He sounds like “YUSUF!””

fabian changed his name?

I am not yusuf, we just happen to live in different parts of the same ocutnry, as checking IP will show.

actually I do not think breaking Starbucks windows is revolutionary.

still I have never met a single Jarry Place apologist who can argue without inventing their opponent opinions rather than arguing with the words they wrote.

therefor eI will just add you to the heap of idiots.

much like when people here call me a stalinsit despite the fact that they post on a site ofunded by a lifelong stalinist activist, when I am in fact a trotskyist, and the scumbag who founded this site for most of his life worked towards defending the mass murder by Stalin of trotskyists and all other opponents -and then with one switch ecided that actually, trotskyists are the real stalinists.

check the wikipedia article

very ironic

as for “coabrde”, I do not consider myself one. Jorge, a supporter of one of the world’s most miltiarised states, which is slaughtering children in Gaza, the hcildren of one of the poorest nations on earth, in order to gain favour for the current regime before the next elections and force the PAlestinians into accepting a diminished puppet state under the repressive client borugeosiie of Fatah, and life under apartheid, without ressitance, thinks that communsits in Argentina, where we have 30 000 dead for thinking differently to the apologists of capitalism, are “cowards”

I do not know if “Jorge” is a coward. he is something much more irritating – an ignorant philistine too stupid to know his own ignorance!

Indeed. I can’t speak of J in particular, but a lot of people who’d previously thrown around casual accusations of Nazism or Apartheid…

See? This is what enrages me. In the same sentence you lump together accusations of Nazism, which are indeed immoral and repugnant, with those of Apartheid, which are very respectable.

People who know more about Israel than you and me, such as Shulamit Aloni, Yossi Sarid or Avi Shlaim, have described Israel’s occupation as Apartheid. Nothing wrong with that.

The only possible war aim that would have made any sort of sense, had some sort of at least crude logic, at least temporarily, would have been Hamas’s total destruction – including its entire leadership.

Not really.

One model I keep in mind is the way civil rights legislation in the US served to flip the racists out of power in the American south.

It’s possible for a political group to become so weakened that other political forces overpower it and take control. Hamas doesn’t have to be killed to the last man, but they do have to be defenestrated.

But that would have involved genocide.
Once again Benji’s hyperbole in defense of Hamas is disgusting. Right, no war has ever been won without genocide right? It was the Allies not the Nazis who were guilty of genocide by that reasoning, after all they defeated the Nazis, they must have committed genocide…

and also there is no conspiracy theory behind targetting US and British corporations in relation to support for Israel.

it is quite obvious to anyone with the ability to reason, that Israel is a buffer state used by the US Britain and France especially to police Arab nationalism against their own imperialism, and that this ties in with the quasi-fascistic “manifest destiny” polciies of the expansionist, colonailsit and genocidal zionist ideology.

it is quite obvious therefore that the crimes committed by Israel are very much also the crimes of the US, British and French states and bourgeosies, and that ISrael could not commit mass murder without their direct sponsoring.

so, to organise a campaign against the most loud supporters of Israel within those bourgeoisie is not a hate crime or a conspiracy theory, but a very obvious reaction to the blood ont he hands of such people, a can be proved by any serious geopolitical analysis (somethign Harry Place has never contributed to huamanity, and which I doubt it will).

of course,targetting individual corporations may not be the best tactic, and may in fact divert into the idea that there is a “good” and “bad” capitalism. but, in itself, hatred of Starbucks or any other US, British, French or (in a very few cases, as Israeli capitalism is weak and dependent) Israeli corporation, as part of a campaign aginst the genocide in Gaza, is not in itself incorrect – it is just not a complete enough view.

la mano de d10s is a funny little jerk besides being a cobarde like his Hamas friends who fire rockets at civilians while hiding behind baby carriages an women’s apron strings.

You and HB are probably the same jerks with different names.

HB, the accusation of the territories being Apartheid like are obsoleted by the fact that it would now be completely impossible to make Palestinians into Israeli citizens – the security risk would be insane.

After all the terrorism, the indoctrination to genocidal intent, you can’t blame Israel for not giving citizenship rights to a quazi state that is officially dedicated to the destruction is Israel and the death of even the children.

“People who know more about Israel than you and me, such as Shulamit Aloni, Yossi Sarid or Avi Shlaim…”

Oh sure and people who know more than you or me have said that these failed to prove their case.

Hey what about the Jew slaughtered in Buenos Aires. What do you call that, pogromchik?

these attacks are surely intended to envoke the terror associated with it

Not really; Kristallnacht was state (or state orchestrated) terror.

There is some similarity in the sense that a business is being attacked. There is some sort of collective memory there. Galloway’s call was dubious in that context, and then hotheads can act on it literally, if that was their motivation; Galloway does have culpable deniability, of course.

But again, all very different from Kristallnacht. If its designed to evoke some sort of terror, its not really working (unless poor old Brett really believes in his own hyperbole).

Avi Shlaim changed his mind, I believe.

“…it is quite obvious therefore that the crimes committed by Israel are very much also the crimes of the US, British and French states and bourgeosies, and that ISrael could not commit mass murder without their direct sponsoring.”

And the crimes committed by Argentineans are also the crimes committed by Iran or is it the other way around.

maybe we the big bad imperialist should target Argentinean corporate businesses (if there are any) along with Iranian ones.

This mano the 10th guy, btw, is the same as “hasbara buster,” so called.

They are both Jew haters incoherent and motivated by revenge fantasies.

Once again Benji’s hyperbole in defense of Hamas is disgusting. Right, no war has ever been won without genocide right?

No, I am just saying that if Israel wanted to kill every last Hamas man in Gaza in a military operation, it would probably have to involve genocide; or at least something very akin to it. This is not about apportioning blame; its simply a consequence of such an aim if it existed.

This style of warfare just aint going to reduce the threat to British Jews, or Jews anywhere in the world.

http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.com/2009/01/17/notes-for-reference/

should we be surprised by any of this sickening anti-jewish hysteria when you have elected members of branches of uk govt – in this case the welsh assembly – allowing links on their blogs in which lunatics claim mossad were responsible for the attacks on the twin towers!

Follow the url below – the link can be found at the bottom of the discussion (number 14)

http://www.bethanjenkinsblog.org.uk/debate-on-gaza-at-the-assembly

HB, the accusation of the territories being Apartheid like are obsoleted by the fact that it would now be completely impossible to make Palestinians into Israeli citizens – the security risk would be insane.

Don’t be absurd. The observation that the occupied territories are like apartheid is simply a description, it is not some grand moral judgment. Apartheid can be justified by some on moral and security grounds. As for Arabs not having citizenship in the territories – that is function of the occupation (limbo) not anything else.

So the Gaza regime , alone in history, is so brutal that it can’t be defeated short of genocide?

What an odd sort of exceptionalism you subscribe to. I guess it comes from believing Muslims to be sub-human or something – perhaps the only difference between you and John P. is that he hates the people he believes beneath humanity and you feel some sort of paternalism toward them.

“jorge
18 January 2009, 5:03 am

la mano de d10s is a funny little jerk besides being a cobarde like his Hamas friends who fire rockets at civilians while hiding behind baby carriages an women’s apron strings.

You and HB are probably the same jerks with different names.”

you are not very clever.

“Hey what about the Jew slaughtered in Buenos Aires. What do you call that, pogromchik?”

What about the much larger scale, much more prolonged and profound, CIA supported and trained, genuine slaughter of communists in Argentina, in order to serve the interests of the Argentine client bourgeosie and its European and North American bosses?

This slaughter killed 30,000 leftists, the same group which most commenters here use violent and hysterical language against.

however this does not seem much of a worry to you?

maybe the lives of 85 argentine Jews are worth more than those of 30,000 argentine leftists (the majority of whom were not guerrillas but socialist trade union delegates) – and many of whom were Jews (but the wrong kind of Jews, as they supported a kind of socialism instead of religious nationalist colonialism).

The observation that the occupied territories are like apartheid is simply a description, it is not some grand moral judgment.

That’s the most blatant lie I’ve ever read on HP and that’s saying a lot.

You guys laugh over the destruction of Gaza and justify the thousands of dead and injured, and then get all antsy about a hop window being smashed?

It really is no surprise that no-one takes you seriously anymore (apart from whoever sends out the press releases at the Israeli embassy that is)

“And the crimes committed by Argentineans are also the crimes committed by Iran or is it the other way around.

maybe we the big bad imperialist should target Argentinean corporate businesses (if there are any) along with Iranian ones.”

actually, I agree with targetting Argentina corporate business, I suppor its full expropriation by the working class, and a revolution against “my” bourgeoisie.

maybe that never occurred to you.

“They are both Jew haters incoherent and motivated by revenge fantasies.”

“revenge fantasies” would describe projecting onto leftists and muslims in Briain, and Palestinians (one of the world’s most oppressed nations), the crimesof the Nazis, and bloodthirstilly justifying state repression against the former and genocide against the latter.

“maybe we the big bad imperialist”

ah and htis shows the source of your offence.

there is no “we”, I do not consider the massesof any country to be the same as their ruling class. when I talk of British imperialism I talkof the state and the bosses, which oppress and exploit the British working class.

you have chosen to place yourself on the side of the forrmer. nobody is placing you there.

“… Israel is a buffer state used by the US Britain and France especially to police Arab nationalism …”

“… the interests of the Argentine client bourgeosie and its European and North American bosses.”

“You guys laugh over the destruction of Gaza …”

LOL TROTZ

Comrades Anon and Mano de D1os, I salute you!

“revenge fantasies” maybe,but I would say the ‘projection’ is more of a ‘distraction technique’,however ineffective.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Eliminating Hamas, which should have been the goal of Israel in Gaza, would not involve genocide, even if it resulted in the death of 10s of thousands of Gazans, since the purpose of the military attack is not the elimination of Gazans but of Hamas. For the same reason, the attack on Japan was not genocide; nor was the attack on Germany genocide (at least by the U.S; for the Russians it was almost genocide).

The only logical goal in Gaza is the elimination of Hamas. While Israel’s attack was long overdue, yet again, when the chips were down, they turned chicken, afraid of…what? world opinion? The UN? Ban Ki-moon? Israel should occupy Gaza, declare that anyone possessing a weapon will be killed on sight, and membership in Hamas is illegal.

So the Gaza regime , alone in history, is so brutal that it can’t be defeated short of genocide?

No, nothing to do with morality or brutality; all to do with practically. If you have guerrilla fighters in an urban population and you want to kill every last man, you have to kill numerous others in the process. Moreover, Hamas is also the civilian population, so you have to kill civilian Hamas, all its welfare arms and infrastructure, and at the same time you kill other civilians. You have to kill both the civilian and military leadership of Hamas, at the same time killing civilians. It rapidly degenerates into a bloodbath, which I am sure will be seen as something pretty akin to genocide.

Its interesting to note that the original UN definition of genocide also included political killings, but this was vetoed by the USSR – so that omission may get it off the hook if it came to it.

Hamas is also the civilian population

Now that is a really stupid thing to claim, even for you, Benji. And as your point hinges on this utterly false identity of Hamas with all civilians in Gaza, it falls into absurdity and I think we need not bother with you any more in this thread.

“lol…the media is silent about hte outrageous thuggerry against poor helpless Starbucks, instead concentrating on minor issues like 1200 dead palestinains and the crimes against humanity in Gaza.”

This guy understands 0 (zero) about what honest journalism is. As if all pages in each and very major newspaper were (and could only) be occupied with Gaza, so that there’s no place left to report on what is happening in their own town. Thus I imagine there is neither a single line in any newspaper about anything else but Gaza, right? No movies, no books, no crime, no football etc.

And the dishonesty of it: the depredations of Starbucks is actually a part of the coverage of the events of Gaza and its repercussions. But only the right repercussions should be covered, naturally. If the media can be so slanted about things happening a mile from their offices, imagine how much they lie (or how silent they can be) about what’s taking place abroad and far away, about thing that don’t fit in their narrative.

Besides, Starbucks, according to someone, is or represents the “rich” so reporting about it is wrong. If a bourgeois is murdered that’s not news (save if it is a victory for the revolution). But if a proletarian is murdered, then all the pages of a paper have to be devoted to that.

Well, that’s the kind of journalism these people want (and have).

“Because Al Qaeda threatens the world. If they tookover a country like Afghanistan or Iraq it would be a disaster or unthinkable proportions for humanity. These are incredibly important wars to fight. However Hamas is really a single issue thing that has no chance of running Israel – totally different ball game.”

Not really: different tactics; same strategy and ultimate goals. In the end, defeating the Nazis meant also having to defeat the Croatian Ustashi, the Romanian Iron Guard, the Arrow-Cross party in Hungary, Father Tiso’s Slovak fascists and so on. They were all part of a Nazi internationale.

Eliminating Hamas, which should have been the goal of Israel in Gaza, would not involve genocide, even if it resulted in the death of 10s of thousands of Gazans, since the purpose of the military attack is not the elimination of Gazans but of Hamas.

Yes, you can thank the Soviet Union letting you off the hook there.

Still, for many it would be perceived as the “systematic destruction, in whole or in part of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group”, because of the huge numbers of casualties involved.

Once again, you’re making assumption, I suppose, so that you can work back from the conclusion you want.

Since when does winning a war requiring killing every last civilian member of the ruling party?

I might note that Iraqis seem to be defeating their terrorist insurgencies without genocide.

Now that is a really stupid thing to claim, even for you, Benji. And as your point hinges on this utterly false identity of Hamas with all civilians in Gaza

Complete nonsense. Hamas is political organisation, a welfare organisation, and a government and administration. Therefore it has civilian members. Are just talking about its armed wing then?

Therefore it has civilian members.

You claimed in your previus post that “Hamas is the civilian population” and argued that to eliminate Hamas would mean eliminating the civilian population.

You are obviously just a trolling idiot.

Israel has met its objectives and declared a ceasefire. Total Palestinian deaths amount to less than 0.25% of the population.

la mano de d10s

You are not a very clever liar, la mano de mierda, aka HB.

“ What about the much larger scale, much more prolonged and profound, CIA supported and trained, genuine slaughter of communists in Argentina, in order to serve the interests of the Argentine client bourgeosie and its European and North American bosses?

This slaughter killed 30,000 leftists, the same group which most commenters here use violent and hysterical language against.”

Many of those killed were liberals and hardly leftist. Besides a disproportionate number of those desaparecidos were Judios.

Many of the leftists in Argentina were conducting their killings and as I remember those groups didn’t welcome Judios into their ranks.

I am not surprised you would just dismiss the murder of a couple of hundred of Jews in Buenos Aires.

You have no moral authority to speak about anyone’s’ suffering, bigots never do.

Your support for Hamas is driven by sheer Jew hatred and nothing else.

Since when does winning a war requiring killing every last civilian member of the ruling party?

Since Benji thought he would wile away an otherwise boring Sunday morning by trolling HP with this feeble strawmen.

As an atheist it’s one of the few times I regret a decline in church attendances.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about Hamas, not just Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades.

If you Israel’s aim was to entirely destroy Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades in Gaza, this would make accusations of genocide less likely.

It’s interesting to note though, this was not Israel’s policy in the war; Hamas civilians were targeted too.

If La Mano de Dios weren’t a cobarde he could go and conquer the Falklands single handed: that’s what the Argentinian left wants (besides the extermination of Jews, of course). During the Falklands War the whole of the country’s left, but specially its Trots, backed the military dictatorship. But since Venezuela and Iran have no more money to finance them, what will they do now? Oh, take over whatever productive thing is left in their country and manage it as well as all the socialist regimes always had. The whole of Latin America (which loves jokes about the Argentinians’ self-dellusions) will also love to see Argentina transformed in something as productive, rich and democratic as Cuba. Good luck.

Total Palestinian deaths amount to less than 0.25% of the population.

Excuse my sense of humor for taking the other side. But I can’t help reading that line in GLaDOS’s voice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLXGeLceSk

“You are not a very clever liar, la mano de mierda, aka HB. ”

actuallyit has been proven by Gene in another thread that I am not HB.

“Many of those killed were liberals and hardly leftist.”

Really? “Many”? I don’t think so. the great majority of liberals in Argentin supported the coup, or crossed over to socialism.

“Besides a disproportionate number of those desaparecidos were Judios.”

As I said, yes. But they were overwhelmingly hard left Jews, not zionists, pro-imeprialists, or liberals.

“Many of the leftists in Argentina were conducting their killings and as I remember those groups didn’t welcome Judios into their ranks.”

No, this is a blatant lie I have heard repeated many times on HP, but in very little other places. It is simply not true.

“I am not surprised you would just dismiss the murder of a couple of hundred of Jews in Buenos Aires. ”

Nobody dismissed anything, it is your hypocrisy that is being shown here, that is all.

“You have no moral authority to speak about anyone’s’ suffering, bigots never do. ”

You do not know the definition of bigot. I support a socialist federation of the middle east with equal rights for Jews, Arabs and christians. yous upport apartheid, the mass murder in Gaz, and the continued exile of 5 millionPalestinians from their homeland.

“Your support for Hamas is driven by sheer Jew hatred and nothing else.”

well you have no evidence of either my support for Hamas or my Jew hatred, all yous how is the bankrupcy of your moralistic an emotionalistic “ideology”, which cannot answer a single point which an historical materialist like me raises, and which at every refutation of one lie,s imply has to invent another.

In other words, you are nothing for me or any of your enemies to worry about. if you were capable of intelelctual integrity, you may have been.

If there’s a place on Earth for a statue of Maggie Thatcher, that’s Buenos Aires. If not for her, Galtieri and his friends would still be ruling the country.

You claimed in your previus post that “Hamas is the civilian population” and argued that to eliminate Hamas would mean eliminating the civilian population.

Well, you come to that bizarre conclusion because you thought that when I said “Hamas is the civilian population” (in the context in which I said it) I meant the entire civilian population. That’s your odd problem, not mine. I then listed ways in which it can be civilian. Of course its not the entire civilian population, but if you want to assume that’s what I meant you are entirely free to do so!

It’s interesting to note though, this was not Israel’s policy in the war; Hamas civilians were targeted too.

I didn’t say or imply that winning a war never involves targeting civilian members of the ruling party, only that it does not require killing all members nor genocide.

Well, you come to that bizarre conclusion because you thought that when I said “Hamas is the civilian population” (in the context in which I said it) I meant the entire civilian population….

I think I speak for every sane person who doesn’t just skip your comments when I say that what we actually thought was that your comment was senseless trolling – and that there is really no logical interpretation available for it… But one stab at scanning nonsense for meaning is as good as another.

all yous how is the bankrupcy of your moralistic an emotionalistic “ideology”

The irony of a Marxist revolutionary complaining about the bankruptcy of someone else’s “ideology”!

“During the Falklands War the whole of the country’s left, but specially its Trots, backed the military dictatorship. But since Venezuela and Iran have no more money to finance them, what will they do now?”

actually, both of these lies were refuted last time you told them Bartok. you know nothing about argenitne history or the argentine left other than what you have read on amateur blogs.

Go back to the last thread, note the names of the two well respected (and not in line wiht my poltiical views) history books I reccommended you, note them, and read them. ;)

“Oh, take over whatever productive thing is left in their country and manage it as well as all the socialist regimes always had.”

which would be much better than any capitalist argentine government ever has.

“The whole of Latin America (which loves jokes about the Argentinians’ self-dellusions)”

they do, yes but asI am not a nationalsit htis doesn’t offend me. the Argentine petit bourgeoisie is very keen to think itself “European” and “civilised”, and as such is is laughed at by other latin american coutnries, including the masses in Bolviia, Paraguay and Peru, who the reactionary sections of the Argentine middle class treat with disgusting racism, jsut as do the white, US sponsored, semi-fascist elites int hose same countries.

So what exactly is your point? I am in the game of collective branding of whole nationalities, I judge people on what their views are and what they do, and not where they were born. I can insult you happilly on your own personal faults, you will neveronce see me insult you for your nationality, I would never sink so low.

But then you would not undertsand the meaning of “internationalism”

“will also love to see Argentina transformed in something as productive, rich and democratic as Cuba. Good luck.”

actually Cuba is a much more civilised society than Argentina. Despite a genocidal imperialist embargo and a sellout bureaucracy which wants to roll back the gains of the revolution, it uses the wealth it creates much more in the benefit of its working class than does argentina. 30% of the argentine population, at least, is much much poorer than the poorest Cuban, and this despite Cuba being a tiny island surrounded by enemies who have done everything to destroy it, with nowhere near Agrentina’s natural wealth of productive capabilities.

“which would be much better than any capitalist argentine government ever has.”

correction, this should read:

which would be much better than any capitalist Latin American government ever has.

Anyway, too many have died needlessly in pointless military operation – already I hear the sounds of goalposts moving.

Israel has called a ceasefire and it faces another ignoble failure. To the extent we can take anything good from this, that is a good outcome. It needs to fail until it seriously engages in negotiations for a fully independent Palestinian state again, preferably with Hamas. In fact failure to seriously pursue this aim only guarantees further defeat.

The next step is ending the rocket attacks and full talks.

Between the military who transformed Argentina in a rightist shithole and the hard leftists who wanted to transform it, through violence, into a leftist shithole (and who helped to put the military in power) any sane individual can be neutral.

Equal rights in the Middle East can only be achieved with equal national rights for all persecuted minorities. Where Arab Muslims are hegemonic, Jews, Copts, Maronites, Berbers, Kurds etc. should all have their own countries and armies. Otherwise they will be always opressed my the Arab Muslim majority. All this idiocy about a socialist Middle East is just a way of backing the biggest, most powerfull and most reactionary group in the region. Socialist wet dreams won’t work better there than anywhere else.

That’s your odd problem, not mine.

No Benji, it’s your problem. When you post hasty and ill-conceived nonsense, it reflects badly on you. Your problem, not mine.

So we are clear then that eliminating Hamas, even militarily by killing every single member, would not amount to genocide. Good.

“Sea Kitten
18 January 2009, 6:04 am

The irony of a Marxist revolutionary complaining about the bankruptcy of someone else’s “ideology”!”

hmm, the irony of saying this at a time when the global economy is literally going bakrupt before our eyes, and commentators from Wall Street to the London to Frankfurt are quoting Marx, because no bourgeois theory offers an adequate explanation.

of course you would know that not a single tendency within borugeois economics offers a general theory of crisis, i.e. explainign why crises are inherent to the system.

Yet global capitalism has entered into periodic crises every single decade of its existence, costing hundreds of millions of lives and ruining many many times more.

So who is “bankrupt”?

So we are clear then that eliminating Hamas, even militarily by killing every single member, would not amount to genocide. Good.

No, not good, actually; bad. A blood soaked communist dictatorship’s veto is the only reason that would not be classed as genocide.

Sorry kid, but as you don’t know where I was during the Falklands war nor to which party I belonged then, you cannot know where I got my firsthand informations. Anyway, you seem to be young, because you don’t know there weren’t blogs at that time. There wasn’t even an Internet then. But it is good to know there’s young people around reading one or two books once in a while. Read more: it’s good for your education.

I bored with Benji. Eventually the trolling becomes too clear.

You can baldly make up any position Benj. Be a polemicist. We can see that you lead with your conclusions not any reason to believe them. Just a fucking waste of breath.

God! The guy actually believes that what he calls “capitalism” (there’s no such thing) is going bankrupt. Seems to be the kind of guy who takes a misundestanding with his girlfriend as a sign that we have got already to a pre-revolutionary situation. Does he actually know how many times the left predicted the end of “capitalism” since, say, the end of WW2, saying it was sure and imminent? Leftism is really a skin disease of the teenagers.

“Capitalism” may have crises once in a while. Socialism IS a perpetual crisis. “Capitalism” doesn’t kill people. The lack of it does. Socialism is a killer.

commentators from Wall Street to the London to Frankfurt are quoting Marx, because no bourgeois theory offers an adequate explanation.

Keep taking the meds, son.

I’m off to bed.

“hmm, the irony of saying this at a time when the global economy is literally going bakrupt before our eyes, and commentators from Wall Street to the London to Frankfurt are quoting Marx, because no bourgeois theory offers an adequate explanation.”

ha, ha, ha,

“Commentators?” Name one reputable economist who is quoting Marx and claiming that he was right and we should adopt Marxist econmomics, whatever that might be.

How much do you know about economics, mentiroso?

I predict a comment about the crisis of the Soviet Union from Sea Kitten. However the difference between marxism and bourgeois ideology is that marxism knows itself obliged to answer all contradictions and all opponents. Unlike bourgeois ideologues, Trotsky did predict the collapse of the Soviet Union, and explain why, inherently, the system of bureaucratic socialism was on the road to restoration of captialism. So to cite hte example of the collapse of the Soviet Union to me is to revindicate Trotsky.

But I will let Rafael Poch de Feliu, the USSR correspondent of the Barcelona based newspaper La Vanguardia (a christian democrat, promonarchy, and liberal newspaper) in the mid 1980’s to mid 1990’s, answer the question, as he did in his highly respected analysis of the transition back to capitalism in Russia “La gran transición”:

“Gracias a las absurdas medidas económicas del equipo de Gaidar, la tradicional clase dirigente-administrativa soviética logró realizar el sueño histórico de la nomenclatura de convertirse en nueva clase propietaria, de acumular rápidamente patrimonios convertibles y transmisibles por herencia, y de saciar su apetito hacia el consumo de lujo que tanto envidiaba a la burguesía y a la clase dirigente occidental. Se cumplió así, en lo esencial, la profecía de Lev Trotsky, formulada en 1936, según la cual la burocracia acabaría transformándose en clase propietaria, porque ‘el privilegio sólo tiene la mitad del valor si no puede ser transmitido por herencia a los descendientes’, y porque ‘es insuficiente ser director de un consorcio si no se es accionista’”

in english:

Thanks to the absurd economic team of Gaidar, the traditional ruling-administrater Soviet class, achieved the historic dream of becoming a new propertied class, to accumulate assets quickly convertible and transferable by inheritance, and to satiate their appetite consumption of luxury envious that the bourgeoisie and Western leaders. In essence this was the prophecy of Lev Trotsky, made in 1936, according to which the bureaucracy eventually becoming owner class, because “the privilege is only half the value if it can not be inherited by the descendants’ and it ‘is insufficient to be director of a consortium if it is not a shareholder ”

quote from Rafael Poch-de-Feliu, La gran transición, Editorial Crítica, 2003

the translation was not great, I used google. but the essence is clear.

“Sorry kid, but as you don’t know where I was during the Falklands war nor to which party I belonged then, you cannot know where I got my firsthand informations. Anyway, you seem to be young, because you don’t know there weren’t blogs at that time. There wasn’t even an Internet then. But it is good to know there’s young people around reading one or two books once in a while. Read more: it’s good for your education.”

No I do not know, why don’t you say? are you ashamed of your past?

in any case, the information I have is also first hand, and much more extensive than yours. Some of the left may have held the line you claim, but much of it did not. The largest group claiming ot be trotskyist, the PST, of Nahuel Moreno, which later became MAS, by far Argentina’s largest left wing party in the 1980’s, did not hold the line you claim, for example.

“Does he actually know how many times the left predicted the end of “capitalism” since, say, the end of WW2, saying it was sure and imminent?”

saying capitalism is going “bankrupt” is not the same as syaing it is going to end. Capitalism is quite lcearly going bankrupt, as the largest financial firms in the world, as well as the US car industry, and icnreasingly dominant corporations in every other sector, are going bankrupt.

This does not mean it will “ned”.

Again you cannot deal with wht people sya, so project a view onto them.

“Name one reputable economist who is quoting Marx and claiming that he was right and we should adopt Marxist econmomics, whatever that might be”

actually nobody mentioned them “advocating the adoption of marxist economics”, as obviously this would mean the end of their means of subsistence. being forced by events to resort, grudgingly, to quoting marx as the only explanation for things which no bourgeois economic tendency can explain, is not the same as advocating marxism. obviously, such people will go out of their way to slander marxism, quite consciously.

here is one example of the mainstream borugeois press being forced to discuss marxism:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4981065.ece

My favourite quote though is Warren Buffet, a man who probably knows a little more about capitalism than you:

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

.
Hamas will never honor a ceasefire, and as soon as they start firing rockets again, Israel must too.

These people equating Israel with the Nazis have to be insane, and they are mostly from the Left. The Left acting like Nazis and calling for a new Hitler, and for the Jews to go to the ovens, wow! Hitler, someone even most of them would say they hate. The Left, many are anti-semitic Nazis, they should be so proud. The truth is coming out, it is getting harder to hide.

The MSM is insidious, they are instrumental in fanning these flames. We must keep trying to de-brainwash as many people as possible. As the brave Geert Wilders put it recently, “To begin with, there is already a Palestinian state, and that is Jordan. This land covers nearly eighty percent of the historic Palestine. Most residents of Jordan are Palestinians, for instance queen Rania.”

Why doesn’t Jordan take the poor Palestinians in the West Bank and Egypt control the nut jobs in Gaza?

They don’t want them, that’s why. They should be made to take them. That may be the only answer.

Hamas is what makes Gaza much worse than it could be. If they would give up the dream of destroying Israel and the Jews and stopped all missiles and suicide bombers, and all terrorist attacks, Israel would welcome doing business with them, and things would be peaceful. But they can’t do this as long as they follow their Koran strictly.

There is no negotiating with a mad man, or with Jihadis who want to die to go get their 72 virgins.
I hope Israel doesn’t quit too early. If Israel is destroyed, terrorism in the rest of the world will just increase, it will never stop, as long as there are Radical Muslims, or rather, Muslim Fundamentalists; who are appeased, defended, and kissed up to.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
let someone hit you

over and over again
and NEVER hit back harder

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
DO NOT defend your country

from terrorist monkeys
just let them bomb you at will

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
BOMB kindergartens

then piss and moan and whine
when their parents bomb you back

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
never mock Hamas

it’s just their religion
you RIGHT-WING INFIDEL
.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
What Really Happened in the MidEast?
.
Help Stop Terrorism Today!
.
USpace

:)
.

in any case, despite Warren Buffet’s clear (if unknowing) revindication of marx’s view of capitalism, I will rather let Karl speak in his own words, to show that he explained the fundamentals of the current crisis which has left all bourgeois economists with no answers. This is more effective than trying to find many bourgeois articles which point to peices of Marx:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch27.htm

“3) Transformation of the actually functioning capitalist into a mere manager, administrator of other people’s capital, and of the owner of capital into a mere owner, a mere money-capitalist. Even if the dividends which they receive include the interest and the profit of enterprise, i.e., the total profit (for the salary of the manager is, or should be, simply the wage of a specific type of skilled labour, whose price is regulated in the labour-market like that of any other labour), this total profit is henceforth received only in the form of interest, i.e., as mere compensation for owning capital that now is entirely divorced from the function in the actual process of reproduction, just as this function in the person of the manager is divorced from ownership of capital. Profit thus appears (no longer only that portion of it, the interest, which derives its justification from the profit of the borrower) as a mere appropriation of the surplus-labour of others, arising from the conversion of means of production into capital, i.e., from their alienation vis-à-vis the actual producer, from their antithesis as another’s property to every individual actually at work in production, from manager down to the last day-labourer. In stock companies the function is divorced from capital ownership, hence also labour is entirely divorced from ownership of means of production and surplus-labour. This result of the ultimate development of capitalist production is a necessary transitional phase towards the reconversion of capital into the property of producers, although no longer as the private property of the individual producers, but rather as the property of associated producers, as outright social property. On the other hand, the stock company is a transition toward the conversion of all functions in the reproduction process which still remain linked with capitalist property, into mere functions of associated producers, into social functions.

Before we go any further, there is still the following economically important fact to be noted: Since profit here assumes the pure form of interest, undertakings of this sort are still possible if they yield bare interest, and this is one of the causes, stemming the fall of the general rate of profit, since such undertakings, in which the ratio of constant capital to the variable is so enormous, do not necessarily enter into the equalisation of the general rate of profit.

This is the abolition of the capitalist mode of production within the capitalist mode of production itself, and hence a self-dissolving contradiction, which prima facie represents a mere phase of transition to a new form of production. It manifests itself as such a contradiction in its effects. It establishes a monopoly in certain spheres and thereby requires state interference. It reproduces a new financial aristocracy, a new variety of parasites in the shape of promoters, speculators and simply nominal directors; a whole system of swindling and cheating by means of corporation promotion, stock issuance, and stock speculation. It is private production without the control of private property.

…

The credit system appears as the main lever of over-production and over-speculation in commerce solely because the reproduction process, which is elastic by nature, is here forced to its extreme limits, and is so forced because a large part of the social capital is employed by people who do not own it and who consequently tackle things quite differently than the owner, who anxiously weighs the limitations of his private capital in so far as he handles it himself. This simply demonstrates the fact that the self-expansion of capital based on the contradictory nature of capitalist production permits an actual free development only up to a certain point, so that in fact it constitutes an immanent fetter and barrier to production, which are continually broken through by the credit system.[4] Hence, the credit system accelerates the material development of the productive forces and the establishment of the world-market. It is the historical mission of the capitalist system of production to raise these material foundations of the new mode of production to a certain degree of perfection. At the same time credit accelerates the violent eruptions of this contradiction — crises — and thereby the elements of disintegration of the old mode of production.

The two characteristics immanent in the credit system are, on the one hand, to develop the incentive of capitalist production, enrichment through exploitation of the labour of others, to the purest and most colossal form of gambling and swindling, and to reduce more and more the number of the few who exploit the social wealth; on the other hand, to constitute the form of transition to a new mode of production. It is this ambiguous nature, which endows the principal spokesmen of credit from Law to Isaac Péreire with the pleasant character mixture of swindler and prophet.”

the above being a list of the effects of the dominance of the credit system on capitalism, and even though only a tiny fragment, which which explains very accurately what is happeing in the global system today.

Why doesn’t Jordan take the poor Palestinians

Well, I know Madonna went to Africa, but I think Jordan has her hands full already.

The Starbucks attack is mentioned in the News Of The World.

No, nothing to do with morality or brutality; all to do with practically. If you have guerrilla fighters in an urban population and you want to kill every last man, you have to kill numerous others in the process. Moreover, Hamas is also the civilian population, so you have to kill civilian Hamas, all its welfare arms and infrastructure, and at the same time you kill other civilians. You have to kill both the civilian and military leadership of Hamas, at the same time killing civilians. It rapidly degenerates into a bloodbath, which I am sure will be seen as something pretty akin to genocide.

Plainly untrue, Benji. The Mahdi army was a guerrilla army in Iraq that had both civilian and military wings. Their military wing was defeated last year by military operations in Baghdad and Basra which targeted combatants. They were so badly defeated that their leader disbanded their remnants. They still exist as a civilian movement, but with little capacity to do violence. Israel achieved a similar result with Hamas in the West Bank in 2002. It could do the same in Gaza if it was willing to fully re-occupy the strip.

This attack was not done by Islamists or leftists out of hate for Israel and Jews. These were ‘criminals’ who have attacked several Starbucks for purely criminal intent. Hotheads who delight in dressing with traditional Arabic scarves and causing trouble to blame hot-head Islamists and Muslims. In fact, these are Mossad agitators.

(Predictable response from Independent & Guardian readers and Islamist websites)

“Youths rampage in West End and smash shop windows” – typical BBC response (if any)

“It’s Iraels’s fault” – Gerald Kaufman typical response.

“Its NOT an Israeli shop and if the police catch these criminals then bring them to justice. A shop window can be repaired but mangled, maimed, burnt young children in Gaza can’t be fixed” – GG script

I will rather let Karl speak in his own words, to show that he explained the fundamentals of the current crisis which has left all bourgeois economists with no answers. This is more effective than trying to find many bourgeois articles which point to peices of Marx:

LOL. Try reading a modern economics textbook, dumbass, and you’ll find how false and outdated Marx’s analysis of capitalism is. His theories were demolished a century ago by the Austrian economist Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk.

Off Topic:

David T take a bow. Azad Ali http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/24/azad-ali-resist-the-zionist-fizzy-pop/

And now “Muslim civil servant suspended over ‘killing British troops is justified’ blog” http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1120831/Muslim-civil-servant-suspended-killing-British-troops-justified-blog.html

______________

“Try reading a modern economics textbook, dumbass, and you’ll find how false and outdated Marx’s analysis of capitalism is. His theories were demolished a century ago by the Austrian economist Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk”

so presumably you will now use Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk to show why the quoted passage was incorrect.

in any case, it is funny that the principles of Austrian economics, free trade, were shown in a recent survey of proffessional economists around the globe, to have the support of only 8%.

So apparently the other 92% still do not have the answers to Marx.

In any case, can you tell me what is the Austrian school explanation for the current economic crisis?

I don’t know Bohm-Bawerk’s theory, but the Austrian School view of crises is that government’s chronically pump too much money into the system. this is their explanation for the entire history of capitalist crisis, i.e. that crises are not inherent to the system, but htat government’s cause them. Which is a pretty statc view considering that both periods of economic liberalization and periods of keynesianism or neo-keynesianism historically end in crashes.

If your variable does not alter the tendency to crisis then you have a problem, don’t you?

Also by replacing the labour theory of value with supply and demand theories, then doesn’t the Austrian School teach us tht when supply and demand are in equilibrium, a commodity has no value? :D

I await your response to the “dumbass” theories of Marxism, as exposed by a school of bourgeois economics which the bourgeosie itself rejects in practice every time (which makes me ask who is going to impose these perfect policies)

Interestingly though if you suscribe to the Austrian School fo economics you hsould be a strong opponent of the current governments of the great powers (as all “libertarians” I have talked to are), and you should be in diametrical opposition to this very blog, which supports the very leaders who, according to Austrian economics, are leading humanity to a huge economic catastrophe.

and also btw Bukharin destroyed Bohm-Bawerk, in turn:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1927/leisure-economics/index.htm

Brett was absolutely right to use the term Kristallnacht. The seriousness of this wave of antisemitism cannot be underestimated. The principle is the same and that is enough, it doesn’tmatter whether it was the sponsored by a government or not. Who would not be reminded of the Kristallnacht? This is too serious for people to be playing the numbers game. If the Nazis had eliminated 100 rather than 6,000,000 Jews, this would have been no less horrific.

This Kristallnacht has fairly widespread support, doesn’t have the news coverage it should have and the government apparently doesn’t take it seriously enough (ie. from what you are telling me – I don’t live in England). One shop vandalised – with vandals spurred on by a Labour MP – one Jew beaten up, is quite enough.

Long before the Kristallnacht, the German-Jewish poetess, Lasker-Schueler, after a poetry reading. said the audience were holding knives. What she meant was that they were antisemitic. That was not only bad enough but also prophetic. Not that I wish to be prophetic about what may happen in Britain, which is why I think the seriousness of the situation should be understood and militated against now, before it becomes more serious.. In pre-Nazi Germany there was a lot of pooh-poohing of people who were considered to be exaggerating.

Some correspondents on HP just stick their noses into narrowly circumscribed facts. Though I think HP did well not to clip the Mano di dios, as he/she is an interesting case study, though there is an excessive amount of his gibberish. I think he is exaggerating his identification with an illiterate working class; in my experience the working class are decidediy articulate.

Not enough is said about the absurdity of antisemitism. It’s like Romeo having to fear for his life because of his name. I tested an acquaintance in Paris who was virulently anti-English, by arranging the presence of a French friend who had a complete command of English and we spoke that language. She was suitably disliked by X. Next day I told X that she was actually 100% French and said, “Yesterday you didn’t like her, now she’s O.K., but she is exactly the same person!!?”

No, Brett is not exaggerating in the slightest bit.

P.S. to pseudo-vulgar-communists I would suggest dropping Lenin, Trotzky, Stalin and having a really good look at Rosa Luxemburg. With her you can’t go wrong. One of the things she tried to explain to her comrades was that you can’t have a communist regime overnight, tyrannically forced down people’s throats, and that the middle class revolution had evolved over centuries giving it time to absorb and transform aristocratic culture

This is the shits. The Euro-left is less than a shout away from the Euro-right. Got no fam in Euro. They’re dead or in USA or Israel. Take note Juden.

Hope we have a post on the leader of the Islamic Society of the Civil Service (Patron Gus O’Donnell) – previously hailed as a moderate – who has been found to have been posting on the internet allegedly calling for the death of British soldiers in Iraq and rubbishing moderate Muslims in the UK.

People like myself who are highly sceptical of the image being promoted of “moderate Islam” (as things stand, in current society – not saying it is an impossiblity) I think can point to this as a very serious issue. We are talking about people coming into the civil service, local government, judicial system, police, armed forces etc and gradually rising to high office. What attitudes and ideology are they bringing with them? Where do they place their highest loyalty – to this political community or to some global ideology?

Embarrassing though they are, these questions MUST be asked and addressed.

A good start might be for the Head of the Civil Service NOT to endorse sectarian societies within the civil service – that goes for ALL religions.

Not that I wish to be prophetic about what may happen in Britain, which is why I think the seriousness of the situation should be understood and militated against now, before it becomes more serious.. In pre-Nazi Germany there was a lot of pooh-poohing of people who were considered to be exaggerating.

Those who today believe that the attacks on Starbucks are an isolated transitory event that should be dismissed would do well to read I Shall Bear by Victor Klemperer.

Its a fascinating diary of one non practicing “Germanised” Jew who by virtue of being married to a gentile German woman was not rounded up. As you read each entry you’ll understand that the path to ethnic cleansing is a long series of downward steps. The process takes time and is gradual with each unopposed act leading to another step down.

The vilification of Israel and Zionism was one step that has already been taken, the extension of that vilification to any Jew who supports a Jewish state is another, now we are moving to boycotts and physical attacks on the property and businesses of individuals connected with Israel.

Step by step Jews and Israel are being singled out, vilified, and attacked. The argument should not be whether highlighting this is “sensationalist” but instead people should ask why it is not already been severely condemned.

Thinking again – since we have got onto the subject of Marxism. I think there were two nasty jokers in the pack that undermined a happier working-class revolution: one was the communist parties and the other was capitalism. Capitalism has a way of absorbing dissidence to the point of rendering it harmless. Even the efforts of avantgardistes in the arts to say they have nothing more to say and to sit in front of blank canvases are commercialised and become frissons for the Biennale in Venice.

I think that even the Trots and co. don’t realise to what extent they have been capitalised in their thinking and their tastes.

Much more to say, but have to go and am off-threading somewhat. I see at a glance that the Hand of God has reappeared somewhat more articulately. I’ll read his letters and take them seriously later.

The reason that this isn’t in the news is because acts of petty vandalism aren’t really that rare.

la mano de d10s – Do you run a blog? These comments are good shit.

Shabba: “If the Israelis have any sense they will just let Hamas fire rockets for a few days. Show the world who the real warmongers are.”

Lo and behold:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5539321.ece

6:31 PM Defense Ministry reporting IDF forces came under fire from the home/medical office building of Gazan (Israeli trained) Doctor El Ayash (who also worked at Seroka hospital in Be’er Sheva). IDF forces returned fire on the terrorist source and among the killed were Dr. Ayash 3 daughters.

7:06 PM IDF Update: Hamas Snipers were shooting from the home of Dr. El Ayash at IDF forces.

7:46 PM Dr. El Ayash asks on Israel Channel 2, “Why didn’t the soldiers fire only on the upper room of my house?” (which by default is where he is admitting the shooting was coming from)

Dont expect this to be revealed on any UK media outlet.

This is just another example of the anti-semitism sweeping Britain.

Also by replacing the labour theory of value with supply and demand theories, then doesn’t the Austrian School teach us tht when supply and demand are in equilibrium, a commodity has no value? :D

Haha! Keep on spouting this crap to prove what an ignorant moron you are! I have a PhD in Economics and don’t have time to teach you. Incidentally, you don’t have to be a member of the Austrian school to realise the validity of Bohm-Bawerk’s demolition of Marx, whose theories aren’t even seriously debated by most economists these days.

If the Israelis have any sense they will just let Hamas fire rockets for a few days. Show the world who the real warmongers are.

Beyond satire.

Israel achieved a similar result with Hamas in the West Bank in 2002. It could do the same in Gaza if it was willing to fully re-occupy the strip.

Well, Israel and the occupied territories are not Iraq, so you are grabbing straws there, mate. Israel did not achieve a similar result in Lebanon. It failed in its war aims of destroying Hez or even disarming it – its as healthy as ever.

Brett was absolutely right to use the term Kristallnacht.

Truly absurd. As I’ve explained, the differences are vast both in scale and in the type of violence.

Have you looked at the Equality and Human Rights Commission website?
Search it for “Jew” and see what you get that refers to Kristallwoche.

I think you’ll find nothing much that’s relevant or timely about Islamic anti-Semitism.

Your tax pounds at work generating duck-billed platitudes.

From the Times today:
” Faith leaders speak out against hate attacks”
http://www.timesonline/co.uk/tol/comment/faith

Maybe the Church could begin by banning its clergy from telling their congregation to boycott Israeli goods as happens in one of my local churches.

“Truly absurd. As I’ve explained, the differences are vast both in scale and in the type of violence.”

The reason think Kristallnacht allusions are quite valid is that what we are seeing is NOT a few acts of random violence by a small minority who got overexited at a demo. When a British Member of Parliament stands up at Trafalgar Square and calls vaguely for “Israel shops” to be “shut down”, and a leading Muslim Cleric leads the charge (specifically against Starbucks) to his worldwide audience, and when this call is enthusiastically promoted across hundreds of websites and blogs, this is a co-ordinated attempt at inciting a global-scale intimidation of diaspora Jews.

When suddenly activist discussion lists are alive with speculation about whether other shops with owners or directors with Jewish-sounding names might be financing Zionism, we’re dealing with a mood and a direction that is heading ominously in the direction of yes, Kristallnacht. Particularly when right now in London many Jewish people are afraid to go out with any outward signes of their identity on show.

It is a small mercy that they don’t have the power to pull off anything of the scale of the Nazis, but it is not for want of trying – and hoping. They can’t achieve quite the same thing because in the 21st century, the political landscape is different and Jewish democraphics are different, but they’re still trying to pull it off, and however limited their sucess, their intention is exactly the same. Do I have to say it again: To incite a global-scale intimidation of diaspora Jews.

This is how it starts – a brick through one Jew’s window, and then another…

This is how it starts – a brick through one Jew’s window, and then another…

Yep and always there are voices totally removed from the area where it is happening saying things like :

“Truly absurd. As I’ve explained, the differences are vast both in scale and in the type of violence.

Leninism wasn’t the only form of totalitarianism that had its its “useful idiots.”

Benjamin,

yes, Fisk’s article was worth reading.

“Right then, that’s buy Danish, hold your nose and visit Starbucks, get back to the M&S habit, … This is going to be expensive. I hope those so-and-so’s don’t trash any more Jewish High Street chains.” – me, thinking about my weekly shopping.

Shop local, think global, buy Jewish.

If the Nazis had eliminated 100 rather than 6,000,000 Jews, this would have been no less horrific.

Erm…

Dear Graham and Brett,

Of course you can extrapolate anything from anything, and envisage all sorts of nightmarish scenarios, but the point is that these current events involving Starbucks, are called Kristallwoche, in reference to Kristallnacht. But the comparison is absurd.

Come on guys, you are not still holding on to this nonsense are you?

Galloway called for shutting down “Israel shops” but you go on about vandalism in a few Starbucks, which is a US multinational.

This is not remotely like Kristallnacht, as I’ve noted. And Brett, there is a world of a difference between internet chat and folk groaning on in “activist discussion lists” and the real world, clearly.

If the Nazis had eliminated 100 rather than 6,000,000 Jews, this would have been no less horrific.

I think its called jumping the shark.

“This is not remotely like Kristallnacht, as I’ve noted. And Brett, there is a world of a difference between internet chat and folk groaning on in “activist discussion lists” and the real world, clearly.”

So Qaradawi, one of the Most Influential Islamic Scholars ^(TM), was just indulging in “internet chatter”?

Galloway called for shutting down “Israel shops” but you go on about vandalism in a few Starbucks, which is a US multinational.

I think its called jumping the shark.

Oh God, the irony.

Of course you can extrapolate anything from anything

Yes inded. I think you have proved that by saying that attacks on “Jewish” shops are: “not remotely like Kristallnacht.”

It is actually very hard for anybody with a brain to think of anything more like Kristallnacht; but of course you can invent all sorts of rationalisations as to why smashing shop windows in the thirties is different to doing it in 2009.

I have this vague hope that one day people will be able to oppose wars, terrorism, murder, or racist violence (which always have and always will be with us), and do all that WITHOUT charging off the edge of the planet and announcing that the second Holocaust now really has begun in earnest.

Fat chance, I know.

As Graham says kristalnacht was the culminatioon of 5 years of successively more frequent and more serious anti-Jewish attacks throughout all sections of german society.

The street actions of Nazi thugs were so often dismissed or diminished in significance by the intelligentsia and much of government.

I do not wish to engage in false historical comparisons, but it is true that periodic outbursts of violence against ethnic minorities are, while perhaps triggered by particular events (even if manufactured provocations for that aim) not caused by them but by deep seated prejudice and hatred lurking below the surface of society.

Anti-semitism in the 20thC in western Europe was widespread which led many sections of scoiety to ignore, downplay or collude with the increasingly destructive nature of nazi anti jewish violence, even though there is a mass of evidence from contemporary sources (German and foreign) that the attacks were legitimated and precipitated by the radical antisemitic ideology of the Nazis (being but a more extreme version o the anti-jewish sentiment in all nationalist parties).

Well what we have now in the world, and I do not see why Mike doesn’t get it, is a wave of anti-semitism being justified, excused and demanded of Muslims by the cheif proponents of Radical Political Islam.

There is a totaliatrian radical Islamist international movement, that much like Communism in the 20thC, has different interpretations of the means to bring about this revolutionary Islamic Political world order, with different states and non state actors choosing particular violent or largely non-violent strategies to that end.

The ideology is clear, the steps, the ‘Milestones’ are clear, the degree to which powerfull states such as Iran have taken up the mantle of leaders in revolutionary islamism, and the role of key ideologues in demanding for the necessity of this revolutinary radical political islamic revivalism is clear.

The extent to which some people do not wish to see this Radical political revolutionary ideology and movement for what it is, preferring instead to see a multitude of emanations of culture, and religions, and resistance to Imperialism with no overarching political driving force is so startling, that such a reaction can only be seen as willful denial of reality.

The reactions to the cartoons was an engineered political strategy of revolutionary islmist internationalism, not an upwelling of authentic indignation.

Every demand for Sharia is a an engineered strategy of political Islamism (just ask yourself why now), no matter how many traditionalists are wheeled out who say they want it.

This worldwide action of precipitating attacks on jews, their religion and property, is an action engineered and legitimated by political islam, that has as one of its core beliefs the necessary extermination of the state of israel.

So I thought I would take a look at the BBC news website, as it is read worldwide, to see what their latest reports on the rise of anti-semitic violence worldwide and nationally were.

I found nothing, nationally no reports of the recent waves of attacks were to be found.

There must not be much news happening in the UK right now as the front page, in the major stories box on the right has, just above Rockets threaten Gaza ceasefire, ‘Burglars kill pensioners’s budgie’.

Actually this is a horrible story of a poor old woman’s budgie having its neck snapped in front of her by buglars demanding money. She was old and frail and to kill a womans closest companion (they live for decades) near the end of her life is dispicabley cruel.

Not wanting to engage in false equivalents I point this out because the only other news seems to be about Gaza, and its impact upon Gazans and Muslims worldwide.

The BBCs emphasis on Israel is wholy negative, which apparently peter Tatchell is incapable of seeing.

But there is more back story stuff too (as opposed to the beginning of the BBC’s coverage of this conflict where they ommitted to say who Hamas were).

So with the tiniest spark of optimism I turned to the background story titled;
Who are Hamas?
And here are a few excerpts to show how dispassionate the BBC’s reportage is, never once using the word terrorist itself always sticking to militants;
>Hamas takes its name from the Arabic initials for the Islamic Resistance Movement.

>Branded a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and the EU, it is seen by its supporters as a legitimate fighting force defending Palestinians from a brutal military occupation. ……………………………

>It is the largest Palestinian militant Islamist organisation, formed in 1987 at the beginning of the first intifada, or Palestinian uprising against Israel’s occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

>The group’s short-term aim has been to drive Israeli forces from the occupied territories. To achieve this it has launched attacks on Israeli troops and settlers…

>It also has a long-term aim of establishing an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine – most of which has been contained within Israel’s borders since its creation in 1948.

>For years the organisation was divided into two main spheres of operation:

• social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions

• militant operations carried out by Hamas’ underground Iss al-Din Qassam Brigades. …….

….
>In towns and refugee camps besieged by the Israeli army, Hamas organised clinics and schools which served Palestinians who felt entirely let down by the corrupt and inefficient Palestinian Authority dominated by its secularist rival, Fatah.

>The armed struggle
Many Palestinians cheered the wave of Hamas suicide attacks (and those of fellow militants Islamic Jihad and the secular al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) in the first years of the intifada. …
They saw “martyrdom” operations as the best way to avenge their own losses and counter Israel’s unchecked settlement building in the West Bank.

>After the death of Fatah leader Yasser Arafat in 2004, the Palestinian Authority was taken over by Mahmoud Abbas, a vocal opponent of attacks on Israel.

>He viewed Hamas rocket fire, the militants’ weapon of choice in recent years, as counterproductive, inflicting little damage on Israel but provoking a harsh response by the Israeli military.

>When Hamas scored a landslide victory in the Palestinian Authority legislative elections in 2006, the stage was set for a bitter power struggle with Fatah. …

>The new government was subjected to tough economic and diplomatic sanctions by Israel and its allies in the West.

>Skirmishes in Gaza with the Fatah-dominated PA security forces escalated to all-out war, in which the well-armed and better-disciplined Qassam Brigades eventually ousted their rivals in May 2007.

>Hamas security control made Gaza a more calm and orderly place than it had been for months. But Israel tightened its blockade on the Strip and – despite a multilateral ceasefire in June 2008 – rocket fire and Israeli raids continued to provide provocations for more violence by each side.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1654510.stm

Damn you BBC for your shamefull distortions and spin, apologists for terrorists, and for your silence on the wave of anti-Jewih hatred unleashed.

No clearer example could there be of how the BBC in this conflict has abandoned reporting news and embarked upon the creation of a fictional narrative where all Israeli actions are the product of aggression and all Palestinian actions are the product of ‘resistance’.

To not report the anti-Jewish violence, something to the nation plainly visible to the residents of London, is a deliberate choice that tells us much.

It tells us that you the BBC are a bunch of anti-racist hypocrites and, to your deepest core, institutionally anti-semitic.

Sea Kitten,

I see you have quoted from Hermann Rauschning’s book, Hitler Speaks. For your information, Rauschning is not a reliable author and his work is largely disputed by the academic community.

I highly doubt that the quote you have used is accurate. If it was, I think I would have seen it elsewhere, for example, in the following article:

George Watson, “Was Hitler a Marxist ? Reflections about certain Affinities,” Encounter, vol. LXIII, no. 5, December 1984, pp. 19-23

It is not there or in anything else I have read. It is possible that the quote is genuine, but I would advise against you using the quote from that source. If you do find it elsewhere, please let me know. I suspect that anywhere else that quote is published will reference Rauschning, and as such, I think it is worthless.

Oops, we can all make errors. I should have reread Watson’s article before I made my earlier post. Watson does refer to a part of that quote that Sea Kitten has provided, so it is referenced by Watson and attributed to Rauschning.(See page 22 of the Watson article referred to above.) Watson notes that Rauschning’s quote is “highly controversial.” He also notes that in a review of Hitler Speaks for The New Statesman (December 16, 1939), Richard Crossman had referred to it “at the best, historical fiction.”

mettaculture: You may have missed my flagging up of a programme on Thursday on Radio 4 which delighted and astonished me as a bright light of exception- The Investigation, exposing the corruption and anti Israelism of the UNHCR- you will particularly appreciate it- listen again before Thursday. Sad that one should be so pathetically grateful for such rare exceptions:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gm35g

The FT reports from Paris:

French Jewish groups [. . .] have recorded 60 anti-Semitic attacks or incidents of abuse in the three weeks since Israeli forces launched their offensive, almost three times the normal rate.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a4b3f818-e423-11dd-8274-0000779fd2ac.html

When suddenly activist discussion lists are alive with speculation about whether other shops with owners or directors with Jewish-sounding names might be financing Zionism, we’re dealing with a mood and a direction that is heading ominously in the direction of yes, Kristallnacht.

Can you give some examples of this, Brett?

It should be noted that Starbucks is a US coffee chain; presumably it was targeted because it is suspected of giving money to Israel. Again, very different from Kristallnacht, where specifically Jewish businesses were targeted, and Jews as individuals were targeted, killed, deported and synagogues burned down.

Also please note this from the Evening Standard:

“Looters smashed the window of the Top Gun clothes store, stealing leather wallets and bags before throwing red paint into the shop.

Iranian businessman Mike Miri, who owns the store, said: “We think we were deliberately targeted as the name sounds American.”

Police arrested 24 people after seemingly indiscriminate attacks on a dental practice and a newsagents. Dr Dave Jamus feared looters would steal the £20,000 worth of paintings from his Kensington Dental Spa after they smashed through the glass frontage.”

Kistallnacht, or hooligans on a general rampage?

Joe

Yes, I suspect there is a spike in general antisemitism too in the UK; but that is very different from Kristallnacht, which was huge state orchestrated campaign of vandalism, destruction, murder and deportations, an element, essentially, of the broader Nazi “final solution”. The comparison is absolute poppycock.

Kistallnacht, or hooligans on a general rampage?

“We think we were deliberately targeted as the name sounds American.”

I think you have answered your own question unless you think that “hooligans on a general rampage” target particular shops.

Does Benji actually think Kristalnacht was carried out by nazi party cadre I wonder?

Or could there perhaps have been an awful lot of “hooligans on a general rampage” taking advantage of what the brownshirts started?

This is what mobs do.

Gabriel that’s quite shocking, the Independent reports that Zionist Jews are attacking Jews for supporting Palestinians?!! How common place is this??! I suspect it’s very rare indeed, where as the mob have smashed up 4 starbucks in London, and several jews have been beaten up… No mention of that! ..

The chief difference between this and Kristallnacht is that in nowise can this be construed as state supported or sanctioned, let alone perpetrated. But it is sinister.

I agree about that, Marvin. Nor is there mention of Jews assaulted for attending the pro-Israel rally.

I think you have answered your own question unless you think that “hooligans on a general rampage” target particular shops.

Yes, and the reason it was targeted was it sounded American, not Jewish, and the other ones mentioned by the Standard were seemingly random.

Look this Kristallnacht thing is not stacking up chaps. There may a bit of antisemitism involved, but its really nothing like Kristallnacht.

Yes, and the reason it was targeted was it sounded American, not Jewish

I think you will find some American-owned stores were targetted on Kristalnacht too…

You are entitled to your view Benji but this event is more akin to Kristalnacht than anything I have seen in the last 35 years.

When an MP talks about targetting Jewish interests we really are not far from Ulrich Von Hassel’s complaints:

I am writing under crushing emotions evoked by the vile persecution of the Jews after the murder of vom Rath. Not since the World War have we lost so much credit in the world. But my chief concern is not with the effects abroad, not with what kind of foreign political reaction we may expect – at least not for the moment. I am most deeply troubled about the effect on our national life, which is dominated ever more inexorably by a system capable of such things. Goebbels has seldom won so little credence for any assertion (although there are people among us who swallowed it) as when he said that a spontaneous outburst of anger among the people had caused the outrages and that they were stopped after a few hours. At the same time he laid himself open to the convincing replay that – if such things can happen unhindered – the authority of the state must be in a bad way.

Does Benji actually think Kristalnacht was carried out by nazi party cadre I wonder?

No, not necessarily, but I said it was state orchestrated though, which it was. It was November 1938. There was fascist government in power. There was no democracy. Concentrations camps were already open, and forced labour started. Thousands of Jews already deported. Anti-Jewish laws had been on the books for years. Systematic persecution was rife.

Not exactly the UK 2009 is it?

You are entitled to your view Benji but this event is more akin to Kristalnacht than anything I have seen in the last 35 years.

And your baseline for this observation is what? The UK. Brits are not known for their extremism. Your comparison is with Nazi Germany in 1938. Get a grip.

When an MP talks about targetting Jewish interests we really are not far from Ulrich Von Hassel’s complaints

Tell me you are not serious.

And your baseline for this observation is what? The UK. Brits are not known for their extremism.

But given a few more nights of people smashing the windows of Jewish shops and bang goes the Brits being known for tolerance – you get a grip, this isn’t just a storm in a teacup old boy.

Tell me you are not serious.

I am deadly serious – especially about the bit that goes:

Goebbels has seldom won so little credence for any assertion (although there are people among us who swallowed it) as when he said that a spontaneous outburst of anger among the people had caused the outrages and that they were stopped after a few hours.

recognise anyone?

You are serious. Brilliant!

Glad you find racist violence so funny Benj.

I don’t. I find you funny, Graham. :-)

Me:
Brett was absolutely right to use the term Kristallnacht.

(By the way, that was only the first sentence in my mail)

Benjamin:
Truly absurd. As I’ve explained, the differences are vast both in scale and in the type of violence.

Me:
Benjamin, haven’t you said this before? For a reply you’d have to reread my letter above, but I wouldn’t bother. But thank-you for your kind note. I was expecting to be hit much harder for other things I said. Widen your horizons, dear.

You have been referring to yourself recently as “a Zionist” – is that a tactical move? or do you mean it? I’d be fascinated to no more. Is there anything on your blog about this? Can you give me the link?

Fucking hell! to KNOW more. HP has incresed my vocabulary for vituperative language, so even if it has served no other purpuse…

I don’t. I find you funny, Graham. :-)

I hope that I give you half the laughter that your constant litotes on the behalf of racists gives me.

I appreciate it that it Graham who makes this assessment of the situation. He does so a) notasajew (As does Brett) so it cannot just be my Jewish paranoia and b)as a historian, so does not lightly make historical analogies, unless they are informed analogies.

Thanks Ami (though I can’t really lay claim to being a historian, I’m an historiographer playing catch-up with the content of history if anything at all that way.)

I do hope though that people remember that I don’t usually feel the need to comment on behalf of British Jews as (for one thing) I feel there are many who comment here who are far more eloquent than myself. But I really do think this latest outbreak is alarming and I am absolutely 100% certain that the people attacking these shops are very well aware of the symbolism (yes and memories) they are invoking.

Jewcy: The Protocols of the Elders of Java

So one of the reasons Starbucks was targeted was was Ken’s mate Yusuf Al-Qaradawi

“They used to hand a sign on the doors of their shops: ‘We benefit our most important partner, which is Israel, we help in the education of students in Israel, we help build up the Israeli defense arsenal,’ and so on. People go and drink their expensive coffee. Instead of paying 2 riyals for a cup of coffee, they pay 20 riyals. This Starbucks is Zionist. Why do we not teach the nation to make do with its own products, when possible, even if they are of lesser quality? This is the only way the nation will rise. My brothers, put the boycott against the nation’s enemies into action. Every riyal you pay turns into a bullet in the heart of your brothers in Gaza and in other Islamic countries.”

“Haha! Keep on spouting this crap to prove what an ignorant moron you are! I have a PhD in Economics and don’t have time to teach you. Incidentally, you don’t have to be a member of the Austrian school to realise the validity of Bohm-Bawerk’s demolition of Marx, whose theories aren’t even seriously debated by most economists these days.”

yes you are right, most bourgeois economists know nothing about marxism and refuse to debate it. marxist economics on the other hand does debate bourgeois economics.

It is funny that you state bourgeois economists as some kind of reputable standard, vieiwng the state of the current world economy, as a result of a process of unsustainable financial parasitism ast majority defended at the time, and now amazingly criticise in retrospect without any apology for their past uselessness.

To the person who mentioned Rosa Luxembourg: Luxembourg fought for revolution in Germany when se was laive, so I don’t know what you are talking baout. She criticsed some aspects of the Bolsheviks, but had great respect for Lenin and defended the gains of the Russian Revolution against reactionaries.

in any case regarding thes stuuupid comparisons withKristlnacht: maybe no-one can see the difference between a small JEwish shop owner in Nazi Germany, and the Starbucks corporation in modern day Britain. Maybe no-one can see the difference between white bourgeois Germans in the 1930’s and Muslims in racist white British society in 2008.

Such people have obviosuly made the great advance of ignoring “vulgar” Marx and his concentration on economic and social relationships. So now, we have the ultimatum – any Jewish businessman in any situation must be defended from anyone attacking his property, regardless of whether he is an oppressed minority shopkeeper, or the owner of a huge multination corporation with ties to genocidal regimes.

Maybe no-one can see the difference between white bourgeois Germans in the 1930’s and Muslims in racist white British society in 2008.

Where did you see the information that it was Muslims that were smashing up the Starbucks shops? Or is that something that you have assumed?

Touche KB

I have a PhD in Economics and don’t have time to teach you.

Why are far-lefties always so eager to fling their academic credentials around? Is it what they do instead of bragging about their wealth and social status?

“Why are far-lefties always so eager to fling their academic credentials around? Is it what they do instead of bragging about their wealth and social status?”

oops, silly Gene!

it was Apostate, the pro-Israel right-winger, who said that to me! as an excuse for not arguing against any of marx’s theories.

LOL you jsut insulted one of your friends.

showing your double standards, as if you had known he was on your side you would not have (rightfully) criticised his “arrogant” front (probably covering a deep insecurit

“Why are far-lefties always so eager to fling their academic credentials around? Is it what they do instead of bragging about their wealth and social status?”

oops, silly Gene!

it was Apostate, the pro-Israel right-winger, who said that to me!

You’re right, la mano, I didn’t notice the quotes. My mistake. However I have often noticed far-lefties flinging their academic credentials around, and wrongly assumed you were no different.

“Where did you see the information that it was Muslims that were smashing up the Starbucks shops? Or is that something that you have assumed?”

maybe I made a mistake. I know the most miltiant ont he very large and admirable protests for Palestine, those who have bravely stood up to the brutality of the British police, are muslims, and so hurriedly assumed in this case. I should not have.

In any case, my argument is valid, because the idea that muslims are an anti-semitic, thuggish threat to Jews in the west, is one pushed by this site frequently. So I consider my argument valid anyway.

What is also funny is that I will be accused of “contextualising” anti-semitism. This from people who are at the very same time contextualising oppression and exploitation – i.e. it is wrong to oppose it when Jews do it, because this means anti-semitism, and attacking a Jewish business, whatever it does, is inherently wrong, because it calls up Kristallnacht. So a Jewish owned business can do whatever it wants and nobody can take direct action against it.

If that is not “contextualisation” in the most evasive and pathetic, snakelike sense, then I do not know what is.

la mano de d10s,

you might have missed KB Player’s correction, so do you know who committed these racial attacks?

as far as I can tell the ethnicity of the perpetrators is UNKNOWN

so your point was?

“You’re right, la mano, I didn’t notice the quotes. My mistake. However I have often noticed far-lefties flinging their academic credentials around, and wrongly assumed you were no different.”

In any case I just found it funny, because economics is an extremely easy subject to study, anyone with the resources and patience can get a qualification in bourgeois econmics, because there is nothing to “understand”, it is just formal theories. Many marxists I know have qualifications in bourgeois economics and recieved top marks, it is like learning any trade.

The trouble is that bourgeois economics bears no relation to reality, and all its suggestions neccesarilly mean that the wokring class must pay the price of acheiving “competitiveness”.

It really is no different to training to become a priest, you just have to learn the doctrine, and state it to people as absolute rules which they must obey regardless of its affect on them.

as marx said in the quote, such people are both “swindler and prophet”

The West End is strangely apocalyptic of late. Businesses closing due to financial collapse (Zavvi), or Crossrail (Astoria). Roads blocked, dug up. Last night the wind and the rain made it even more so. The constant demos all fit.

Last week I spoke to a 16 year old who’d been to a demo in Traf Square. He was telling me about being held up by the police, and mentioned in passing (but with some glee) that a Starbucks had been smashed up. I asked him why, and he didn’t really know. Eventually he suggested it was because they are American, and America supports Israel.

I can’t believe that I am forced to state that it’s okay, it’s not government sanctioned smashing of Jewish businesses. It’s bad, but hey it’s only 1933. That kid didn’t “know” the Starbucks conspiracy, but someone will tell him. A generation of well meaning kids are growing up believing things that could lead us to dark places again.

“A generation of well meaning kids are growing up believing things that could lead us to dark places again.”

dark places “again”.

hmmm

what place are we in right now King Creole?

or does it only become “dark” when those being killed are not Arabs?

Who is killing Arabs in London?

Hmm. I withdraw that.

Odd that you pick on me as I was really trying to downplay the hysteria associated with the attacks on Starbucks. I’ll point out that while it’s a rich corporation, it’s actually poor people who work in them who are at real risk. One might draw a comparison with a war on a political leadership that must, perforce, endanger civilians. Perhaps the anti-war mob could instigate a unilateral ceasefire, for now.

However. Since I said “we” and “again” I suppose I didn’t really mean London. I’m sure someone can enlighten us as to the British antisemitic experience* that most closely resembles Kristallnacht, and the extent to which lunatic opinions were held here then.

Shit I fucking hate blogs. I can’t believe I am sitting here typing this shit. I am now mentioning the first reference to holocaust way back in lovely medieveeveval London when “we” were in a dark fucking place and expelled all the Jews. Cos they all died so long ago that that doesn’t count. I fucking hate blogs. Straw man, bad faith, disproportionate, ad hominem, sick of the language game, do you agree that, yes or no. Fuck off.

Like you think I think killing Arabs is good? Or is that some clever trap to make me ask about the unique racial and cultural identity of Palestinians? Ooh soon someone might mention Iran and then someone can say how they aren’t Arabs. And then someone will spell arabs arabs and you’ll get upset at the lack of capitalisation as opposed to the way they spelled Jew.

Then someone – we’ll take turns – will say how this is ALL BOLLOCKS AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY DIE. Then again, they seem to be dying FOR A LOT OF BOLLOCKS.

If you actually think that the world will be a better place if people believe that The Jews are behind 9/11 and that they are responsible for the current financial situation you are a fucking lunatic. Takes one to know one.

I mean, seriously, dude, what the fucking fuck?

*Worst. Attraction. Ever.

“Humiliating Hamas is precisely not what Israel should be doing right now….”

I disagree, Benjamin. Public humiliation will cause Hamas narcissistic injury which, whilst it may enrage them even more in the short term, will wreck them psychologically ultimately.

Please someone call up the Israeli government and Hamas and ask them to appoint Benjamin as the peace maker. He’ll sort them out.

Hasn’t anyone noticed that “Kristallwoche” is literally true – week of broken glass, in anti-Semitic violence to boot?