Harry's Place

Brilliant post. The true resistance, indeed. Islamist groupies in the West should hang their heads in shame.

By contrast, this disturbing report today:
Taliban militants have banned female education in northwest Pakistan valley of Swat, depriving more than 40,000 girls of schooling while holding security forces at bay, officials said Saturday.

“My daughters are sitting at home. Their future looks bleak because they will stay uneducated and I don’t see any improvement in situation,” said Mohammad Ayub, father of two girls whose school was blown up by militants in October

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/17/AR2009011700591.html

Afghanistan, for centuries key to the great Silk Roads, was, as result of this flow of creative energy, once one of the most celebrated centres of broad minded thought and culture. (British Library 2007). An exhibition promoting Modernist design was held there in the 1960s. (V&A 2008).

The Taleban are wretched. How anyone of democratic left views who is not detached or unhinged could associate them with “resistance” or who are in any sense truly representative of the ‘real’ Afghans it is impossible to conceive.

I hope this news is as widely distributed as possible so that the BBC’s ‘death counter’ – intentionally demoralising in my view – on its Afghanistan web pages can be seen to represent men and women who have died fighting the most frightful reactionaries and bullies.

These women are writing their names in the stars.

“By contrast, this disturbing report today:
Taliban militants have banned female education in northwest Pakistan valley of Swat, depriving more than 40,000 girls of schooling while holding security forces at bay, officials said Saturday.
“My daughters are sitting at home. Their future looks bleak because they will stay uneducated and I don’t see any improvement in situation,” said Mohammad Ayub, father of two girls whose school was blown up by militants in October” – ami.

It is interesting to compare this with the news recently that the planned Grand Mosque at Beckton in east London will have “school for boys” but makes no mention of a similiar facility for females. I think we need to express our solidarity for the education of Moslem women (sanctioned I believe in the Qu’ran) at here in the UK also.

Larkers – absolutely.

Remember the basic tenets of the left, now that the SWP has dismissed rights for women and rights for homosexuals as mere shibboleths: the British left wants rights for white women because their oppressors are bad white men; it isn’t interested in rights for non-white women, because their oppressors are heroic strugglers against western imperialism.

Too many British socialists will cheer on young Afghan girls having acid thrown in their faces: the people throwing the acid are heroes, and the young women are should be proud to sacrifice their eyes to the cause. We are all, of course, Hamas now.

See Germaine “rights for me and my friends, no rights for the brown women” Greer:

I get a bit worried about certain heavily veiled ladies driving because they have no peripheral vision at all. You can understand why in some countries they are not allowed to drive.

See: she wants non-white women prevented from driving for their own safety. The idea that they might not want acid thrown in their faces for not wearing a veil doesn’t occur to her. It’s for their own good.

And it’s Germaine who wrote:

If an Ohio punk has the right to have her genitalia operated on, why has not the Somali woman the same right?

White racists hate people who aren’t white. White socialists are fifty per cent better: they only hate women who aren’t white.

I remember watching an item on Islam channel where two young female guests mentioned that the reason that no girls went to school under the taliban regime was a lack of funds and educating boys was the priority.

the British left wants rights for white women because their oppressors are bad white men; it isn’t interested in rights for non-white women, because their oppressors are heroic strugglers against western imperialism.

Oh really?

In my local area there are many local Muslim women’s projects…when they hold umbrella meetings the only ‘white’ people who turn up are the SWP/local trade unionists/green party members/respect party members and other white leftists…if you bothered to tun up to these meetings (which take place in every British city which has a sizeable Muslim minority) you would find this to be the case…but its easy to throw dirt at people on an issue you have don’t have any exp. of…

Has any one who posts on this blog got any exp. of attending a local women’s project (be it Somali, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Turkish, Kurdish etc.)

Oh BTW…my exp. with local Somali and Kurdish women’s projects came about because I used to work as a community development worker…I found that the left was very active in local women’s projects…

@ Edmund Standing…i guess you (like a lot of muscular liberals) is a supporter of ayyan hersi ali????

Oh BTW…@ edmund the fact is that Taliban are utter scum…but a lot of afghan femists like Malalai Joya (given vocal support by chomsky) Safia Ahmed-jan, RAWA, Nilofar Sakhi…Have all been very critical of the way the occupation of Afghanistan has been administered..

Oh BTW…my exp. with local Somali and Kurdish women’s projects came about because I used to work as a community development worker…I found that the left was very active in local women’s projects…

So how can some of the same people support the Afghan “resistance”?

Gene, I’m interested. To me it appears that a very small minority of people on the extreme left are supportive of the Taliban, yet these are constantly used to claim the radical left writ large are friends of the Taliban. My experience with Muslim friends on the left also suggests that though there are dubious views aplenty on Hamas and Israel-Palestine, the Taliban (and al-Qaeda) are generally considered beyond the pale.

The line of the SWP on Ssrael-Palestine is certainly reprehensible, but even to them, as far as I can tell, supporting the Taliban is still beyond the pale, even if criticising Western intervention is not.

Unless you are making the argument that to denounce Western involvement in Afghanistan in toto is morally equivalent to actively supporting the Taliban. Which would make pacifists, Quakers etc equally as culpable and immoral.

If you have examples of support by the SWP or similar groups for the Taliban, I would genuinely be interested to see it.

I surely do not want the troops leaving any time soon. For the sake of these people we have to stay

Shamsia and her family are indeed demonstrating heroic courage, courage in the face of a fascistic movement that wants them dead.

Indeed. At last, the perfect, clarified Manichean struggle the Decents have spent years looking for. Decents never like subtlety; the grays and muddy reality of life. Sometimes, in some distant hell hole, they find fragments of their dream: true progressives against the fascists. If only it was so clear cut elsewhere.

Edmund – fantastic post.

Benji

But this really is a case of true progressives versus fascists!

Waseem

It is of no consequence what the SWP line is on anything, because they are are irrelevant.

When Edmund Standing says “we hear a lot of drivel from certain quarters’, he’s referring to this irrelevant trainspotting. Some people spend hours on windy railway platforms looking at rolling stock. This passes the time, in a special British way: where the mundane meets the absurd.

But this really is a case of true progressives versus fascists!

In full plumage too; a great find. Although the tone of the post is a curious one. I just quite put my finger on it.

Saeed:

‘@ Edmund Standing…i guess you (like a lot of muscular liberals) is a supporter of ayyan hersi [sic] ali????’

Damn right I am. And your point is?

Waseem:

‘If you have examples of support by the SWP or similar groups for the Taliban, I would genuinely be interested to see it’.

OK. Writing in the SWP’s ‘International Socialism’ journal, Jonathan Neale acknowledges that the ‘resistance is led by the right wing Taliban’ but nonetheless argues that ‘there are no easy outcomes for Afghans in this situation, but the best one is a victory for the resistance’. He also chastises the left in Pakistan as follows: ‘For too long most of the left in Pakistan has identified the jihadis and the Taliban as the main enemy’.

http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=481&issue=120

Benji, et all, do please explain how supporting the the “resistance” will help these women gain an education?

Fuck off, Benji.

That aside, calling people who throw acid at girls’ faces “fascistic” is actually an insult to Benito Mussolini. They’re much, much worse than fascists.

Edmund, great post – thanks.

Reading the comments here I get the feeling that you guys consider all muslims to be “worse than fascists”. Is that what this site is? some sort of union jack underpant wearing, bald headed, national front group of “paki” hating white supremacists?

To be sure the Taliban are arseholes and no-one wept for them when the US invaded, but “islamist groupies should hang their heads in shame” as one poster says? This is rhetoric! And rhetoric means nutjobs.

hello nutjobs.

I once suggested that some of the people who volunteered to act as “human shields” against the impending US invasion of Iraq in 2003 might want to consider filling a similar role in protecting Afghan girls’ schools against attacks by the Taliban. Surprisingly no one took me up on it.

This is rhetoric! And rhetoric means nutjobs.

“We will fight them on the beaches…”

Thank god for the nutjobs.

“Reading the comments here I get the feeling that you guys consider all muslims to be “worse than fascists”.”

Really? I see one commenter stating that “people who throw acid in girls’ faces” are “worse than fascists”. Is that a reference to all Muslims? No.

“Islamist groupies should hang their heads in shame”? Damn right they should. If you’re not willing to live under clerical fascism – and Islamist groupies most clearly are not – then you should not voice support for it. It’s hypocrisy of the worst kind.

Hold on. Are you confusing (perhaps deliberately) the term “Islamists” with “Muslims”. The two are very different, as the HP team consistently points out. Perhaps you should read up on that difference, before making any more ill-informed statements?

Edmund – thanks, that is shocking. Do you think it represents the viewpoint of a substantial portion of the radical left?

Gene, the point is that the US and most participants in the coalition were democracies, subject (at least in part) to the vagaries of public opinion. So human shields can have some leverage in influencing their policies – the aim of being a human shield is not to go into a hopeless situation and die uselessly.

e.g. one of the most respected international NGOs that uses human shields, Peace Brigades International:

The Taliban, by comparison are non-state actors, with no compunctions about civilian killings, especially those of westerners, so to see any utility in being a human shield in Afghanistan would be idiotic.

Or, was it just a meaningless, cheap shot at ’stoppers’?

Not all women in Afghanistan are protected. I spoke to my sister on Skype today, and she had a letter from a friend who, in turn, cited a letter from a doctor who works for Médicins sans Frontiere. He says the situation of women is an unspeakable nightmare. They are beaten, stoned raped, injured in large numbers. Maybe you smarter computer guys could do some verification on this.

Benji, et all, do please explain how supporting the the “resistance” will help these women gain an education?

I don’t support the resistance; I fully support these women seeking an education. However, I have a horrible feeling that unless something is done to make progress a form of nationalism in Afghanistan, the resistance will eventually win.

“Sometimes, in some distant hell hole, they find fragments of their dream: true progressives against the fascists.”

I think I know that Benji doesn’t actually mean to say that educating women is not an absolutre moral good. Nor does he mean to flip off the people of Afghanistan by importing the language of Strom Thurmond in describing their country in overtones of it being a backward, shitty irrelevance. Nor does he mean to suggest that the Taleban are not in fact absolutely wrong – evil, in fact.

No, Benji doesn’t mean to say any of this. It’s just that he does, because for him the main thing is to mock “the decents”. It doesn’t really matter a great deal what the substantive point is. And this is why so many people think Benji is a wanker of the glibbest order. Because when the option is there to wave a red rag at the “decent” bull, he just doesn’t give a flying fuck what the actual issue is. It’s not surprising he votes Lib Dem.

Sad really.

Reading the comments here I get the feeling that you guys consider all muslims to be “worse than fascists”. Is that what this site is? some sort of union jack underpant wearing, bald headed, national front group of “paki” hating white supremacists?

Reading your comment I get the feeling that you’re either incapable of or unwilling to distinguish between (a) the Taliban and (b) all muslims. You know, like a big old RACIST.

BY “Groupies” Joseph K do you mean that there are women who want to have sex with hard core “Clerical fascists” because their power trip sexually excites them?

No, you dont. Therefore it is rhetoric – an attempt to demean anyone who speaks up for muslims, currently a group singled out for much racist hatred in Britain. You fail to see the casual racisim directed against Muslims, in the media especially but also in social discourse, but it is SO easy to see from without.

Im from Ireland, we have a sizeable muslim community already and it is growing. We do not however, have any of the problems with race hatred which seem so prevalent in Britain. Therefore there is no reciprocal extremism on the part of young muslim men here.

Having grown up in the middle east I feel I have no need to “read up” on “Islamism” as you call it. If my comments – (which can be boiled down to “you are all a bunch of racists”) seem off the mark then perhaps this is a function of the prevailing tendency in these comment sections to reflexively heap scorn on muslims (except for the “good” ones – who of course are far away).

“Writing in the SWP’s ‘International Socialism’ journal, Jonathan Neale acknowledges that the ‘resistance is led by the right wing Taliban’”

Hilariously, Neale adds that this is because the Taliban are “the only organised force who have been root and branch opposed to the occupation”.

And he doesn’t pause to ask why this may be!

Ben

Yes, I described the situation as Manichean, but that does not mean I support the wrong side. As you know, I always support goodness and light. I was merely noting that a clarified battle is a comfort to some, particularly to those who have perhaps a too strong tendency to see it elsewhere too.

Im from Ireland, we have a sizeable muslim community already and it is growing. We do not however, have any of the problems with race hatred which seem so prevalent in Britain.

Religious hatred though….ah…that’s another story. Go away you fool.

e.g. one of the most respected international NGOs that uses human shields, Peace Brigades International:

Or, was it just a meaningless, cheap shot at ’stoppers’?

Absolutely not. Thanks for the link to PBI. They appear to do excellent and important work. Do you think they’d consider expanding to Afghanistan? People there could use protection from the Taliban and the often corrupt and violent police.

Absolutely Benji. Don’t get me wrong, please. I wouldn’t wish to be misconstrued.

I wasn’t making the observation that you were a supporter of the Taliban.

I was making the observation that you were a twat.

I apologise for any possible misconstrual of my comments.

Im from Ireland….. we have a sizeable muslim community already and it is growing. We do not however, have any of the problems with race hatred which seem so prevalent in Britain.

ha ha ha ha Oh you are a fucking wag. Really. No problem with racism? FFS

And while we are at it “Muslim” isn’t a race.

cited a letter from a doctor who works for Médicins sans Frontiere. He says the situation of women is an unspeakable nightmare. They are beaten, stoned raped, injured in large numbers.

I suspect he is right, Felix.

Im from Ireland, we have a sizeable muslim community already and it is growing. We do not however, have any of the problems with race hatred which seem so prevalent in Britain.

For the billionth time, Muslims aren’t a race. Criticising Islamists and denouncing the hatred they regularly spout is what freedom and democracy are all about.

I’ve watched clips of anti-Israel demos in ireland, and yes, some members of the country’s Muslim community DO have race-hatred problemes.

Having grown up in the middle east I feel I have no need to “read up” on “Islamism” as you call it.

I see, so you feel that it is quite normal for Muslims to be murderous radicals ( “Islamism” as we call it), and that such behavior is sanctioned by Islam’s mainstream, by its core texts and by its high- profile scholars.

That, by the way, is Christian convert Magdi Allam’s view on islam, as well. It’s just that he can now say it openly, and not merely accidentally, as you just have.

The hatred, the chauvinism and the attendant penchant for self-segregated no-go zones CAN be mainstream. Here’s a moderate Muslim city councillor in Holland expressing a desire to expropriate a whole swath of Amersterdam, and to then reserve it exclusively for Muslims.

Feel the love.

http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=3631

Bigots then Alvin. You are a bunch of fucking bigots. That better? And theres no religious hatred problem or racism problem in my country certainly not on the scale you have, unless…oh maybe you mean Northern Ireland? which is part of Britain, I think you’ll find.

No sir, whether catholic, protestant, jew, muslim, or just plain athiest, us “micks” all seem to get along fine.

Does this distress you?

Wisdo, perhaps you might be able to find, somewhere on the internet, company more to your liking. Start looking straight away.

Ireland is quite a reactionary place by comparison with the European norm. It’s a great shame that a heavy dollop of catholic social authoritarianism remains to blight people’s lives.

But I’m sure Wisdo can explain why actually as a society Ireland is at forefront of progressivism. Especially by comparison with dirty old Imperialist Britain.

Not a single commentary on muslims, just on talibans. However, the great Wisdo, leaving momentarily the irish paradise, where people goes love indiscriminately, is horrified by the islamofobia.

HP is getting a good name! People even see ghost when they get in! Impressive!

No sir, whether catholic, protestant, jew, muslim, or just plain athiest, us “micks” all seem to get along fine.

Perhaps you could return to the Middle East and teach the same values and standards of tolerance to your excitable co-religionists.

Print and sell T-shirts in Gaza that say; “tolerance, not rockets!”

It’s a completely harmless activity.

“Bigots then Alvin. You are a bunch of fucking bigots. That better?”

Wisdo, I was going to do a lengthy reply to you, but as you’re clearly just a troll there’s not much point. (The fact that you do not understand the difference between “Islamism” and “Islam” points you out as ignorant on the whole subject).

One thing though. If, as you claim, there is no extremism among Muslims in Ireland, can you explain the presence of small children dressed as Hamas soldiers at the recent Gaza protest in Dublin, or the burning of the Israeli flag, or the shouts of “Allahu Akbar” from some sections of the crowd?

Wisdo, I was going to do a lengthy reply to you, but as you’re clearly just a troll there’s not much point.

Yeah, exactly. Also, writing “you are a bunch of fucking bigots” is unforgiveably crass and ill-mannered, and akin to shitting yourself in The Ivy. Living in Ireland is no excuse; there are basic behavioural standards that adult humans need to be able to adhere to.

Aha, I’m curious about muslims in Ireland: is there a need for there to be muslims in Ireland? Do they provide expertise, skills or wisdom which is not available from, say, Irishmen?

And theres no religious hatred problem or racism problem in my country

Hmm, you don’t see this as a problem then, Wiso?

Oops, I see Joseph K was there first…

The story of these girls is truly inspiring but once again we see the SWP held up as a metanym for the ‘left’, much to the glee of the McCarthyites.

How many times must the point be made that the SWP are an IRRELEVANCE and that the widespread criticism of the invasion of Afghanistan was no more an endorsement of the Taliban than horror at the firebombing of Dresden is indicative of Nazi sympathies?

There were, and remain, humanitarian and pragmatic objections to the war and the way it has been prosecuted which do not go away simply by yelling ‘fascist’ at your opponents.

Trying to wrestle this thread back on topic – that is, Afghan Muslims being on the front-line against the Taleban – and away from Gaza or standard attacks on Muslims.

Thread a what depressing.

How many times must the point be made that the SWP are an IRRELEVANCE

I think you will have to make the point again and again – at least until those of us involved with college-age people find some evidence of them being influenced and directed by any other left-wing party than the SWP.

“Has any one who posts on this blog got any exp. of attending a local women’s project (be it Somali, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Turkish, Kurdish etc.)” – saeed.

Yes. The courses are run by white women who are passing language skills onto women who are chiefly from arranged marriages into the UK. You will understand I cannot go into details.

If we are talking about the UK, then, obviously the situation is quite different to that of ‘Islamic’ countries where female education has not been suspended or truncated but denied. There can be no argument about this. We must not allow these absurd and offensive ‘cultural norms’ to be established here.

There is plentiful evidence for this among refugees in the UK, not least Afghan women whose own experiences under Taliban rule are widely known. But whatever the governing ethos of a country might be there can be no justification for denying females an education. This must be the minimum position for any decent human being.

Arm the women with pistols, train them to shoot below the belt, and watch the problem, and the cowards, disappear.

I’d like to draw your attention to this important upcoming event March 7th 2009 in London: A day against Sharia Law and Religious-based courts

Shamsia is the 17-year-old young woman who had acid thrown into her face in November, to punish her because she wanted an education.

There was once an Islamic University where 60% of the students were women. Unfortunately it was bombed by the Israelis.

There was once a music school where half of the students were girls. Unfortunately it was pulverized by an IAF missile.

Those whose hearts bleed for the women who are denied an education in Afghanistan would do well to extend their concern to the women in Gaza.

Thank you Buster. Now kindly naff off to one of the myriad I/P threads.

Yes. The courses are run by white women who are passing language skills onto women who are chiefly from arranged marriages into the UK. You will understand I cannot go into details.

*hangs head in hands*

“*hangs head in hands*”. – saeed.

Which means? Please do not play the Tom Fool with me, not on this subject.

>There was once an Islamic University where 60% of the students were women. Unfortunately it was bombed by the Israelis.

There once was an Islamist university where innocent kids were indoctronated into an 8th Century Death cult. Where they were taught to kill and hate, and where eveil prospered.

Thankfully the Israelis bombed it.

The IDF kills Islamo-fascists so we don’t have to.

God bless every last one of em!

tt – I presume you are the commenter that sparked this post at Pickled Politics

Armed wimminfolk don’t get beaten up, stoned to death, circumcised (we know what that means..), forced into marriage with blokes they don’t like, or forced into hiding by acid throwing nonces.

Arm the women.

We are trying to protect them from the violence of their own menfolk.

Only an idiot does that. Give her the means to prtect herself. Their bloody awful socity ia already full of armed menfolk, and that is the problem.

I reckon a stable civil society is characterised by nothing so much as the menfolk being scared sh*tless of the wimminfolk.

Saeed, I forgot mention and will add here that I gave voluntary English lessons to a Kashmiri neighbour, but that was a long time ago, possibly before you were born.

On second thoughts, do not reply to any more of my posts. I intend to ignore you.

Sunny is becoming increasingly repellent, along the d^2 line. Even his carrying a placard proclaiming his opposition to Hamas comes across as little more than a passive-aggressive foil – look at me, I am prepared to say I don’t like the not-very-nice Hamas, which must make me nice, and if you don’t like me, you must be not-very-nice. Then, when he appears here, he goes straight for the aggressive.

He imagines all criticism of his demeanour to be a complete rejection of whichever group of people he claims to be supporting because, as with d^2, being a narcissist he cannot distinguish the two.

Oh BTW…@ edmund the fact is that Taliban are utter scum…but

“Utter scum…but”.

Weasel words.

Not to be outdone by Saeed, Here’s Benjamin:

I fully support these women seeking an education. However

The weasels are out today in abundance.

Larkers, were they from the Indian side or the Pakistani? How long ago was this? (I’m Kashmiri…)

saeed @ 17 January 2009, 1:06 pm

“Has any one who posts on this blog got any exp. of attending a local women’s project (be it Somali, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Turkish, Kurdish etc.)”

Since its part of my job to deal with Domestic Violence cases, obviously I have been in touch with such projects.

So I have three points
1) Some organise by language and culture, but I have never heard of one organised by faith
2) since I’m a fella, I don’t go to their premises unless specifically invited
3) It’s been known for women not to seek aid from such groups, because their community is so small they fear that confidentiality is rather difficult.

No not me Benjamin….

Larkers: Don’t you think you were a little high-handed with Saeed?

You know that radical ‘progressives’ here in the west are in fact irritated that we’re interfering with their social mores.

Absolutely not. Thanks for the link to PBI. They appear to do excellent and important work. Do you think they’d consider expanding to Afghanistan? People there could use protection from the Taliban and the often corrupt and violent police.

You’re bad. :)

Larkers, isn’t it far more likely that Saeed wrote *hangs his head in hands* in commiseration rather than criticism?

Also, I don’t see much evidence of Saeed weaseling, even if it is evident he doesn’t have the same perspective as most of the posters on here. I note David T had to calm several regulars down on another thread for being so impolite to him. Is there some secret strategy I’m unaware of, aimed at driving away uncommitted leftists with hostility?

“Absolutely not. Thanks for the link to PBI. They appear to do excellent and important work. Do you think they’d consider expanding to Afghanistan? People there could use protection from the Taliban and the often corrupt and violent police.”

And don’t forget, protection from American bombs.

I don’t think many people on the far-left actually supported the Taliban, just as very few actually thought Saddam was a great guy.

However many people opposed the removal of those regimes. OK, let’s leave Saddam out of it for now – most of the far-left opposed the removal of the Taliban regime and in the UK a fair proportion of the softer left also objected to the invasion.

The result of not invading would have been to leave the Taliban and AQ in power in Afghanistan, emboldened by their ’success’ on 9-11.

When the Taliban went from being in power (bad) to fighting invading Americans and British (good) they were transformed from a fascistic governing power into ‘resistance’.

It is not that the far-left think the Taliban are the future of socialism it is simply that, growing out of the Stalinist tradition, they became ‘our sons of bitches’ when they start fighting ‘imperialism’.

This explains why the same people can support Hamas – they are fighting the bad guys. It is the exact same logic that led the US to support fascistic death-squads in Latin America (because they were fighting commies) and indeed to support the Jihadists in Afghanistan (because they were fighting the Ruskies).

The principled left should have nothing to do with this sort of ‘enemy’s enemy’ nonsense and stick up for people like the girl’s in Ed’s post.

“It is the exact same logic that led the US to support fascistic death-squads in Latin America”

I’m sorry, but this demands some comment.

The reason leftists (some, at least) support resistance movements against imperialism (note, against imperialism – not ’support’ in general, but lesser-of-two-evils in this particular fight) is that imperialism does not produce security or stability, it produces conflict and death. Part of the reason it produces conflict and death is that it switches its support around, plays ‘enemy of my enemy’, and generally works in ways that, intentionally and unintentionally, promote civil war. There are endless examples of this, across continents. It is definitely the case in Afghanistan.

Imperialism does this by selling weapons, providing money, sending troops, and generally exerting power. The socialist workers party does not attempt to exert power in Afghanistan (how could it? The only way a far-left group in britain could exert any influence in Afghanistan would be by co-operation with powerful and independent left-wing forces, and if there were such forces, standing a reasonable chance of defeating both imperialism and domestic reaction, then there would be no need to say that taliban victory is ‘the best outcome’) it attempts to exert power in Britain (with little success, but that’s beside the point), in particular to attack the ideological techniques that generate support for imperial intervention.

Because the SWP are not arming soldiers or sending money to Taliban bank accounts, they are not in any way ‘the exact same’ as the US government, even if there is a superficial resemblance between the polemical positions they use to exert influence on the UK government to withdraw its destructive interference, and the actual military and economic methods the US government uses to exert that destructive influence.

That at least is my understanding.

“We hear a lot of drivel from certain quarters about supporting the Afghan ‘resistance’. ”

really??

The reason leftists (some, at least) support resistance movements against imperialism (note, against imperialism – not ’support’ in general, but lesser-of-two-evils in this particular fight) is that imperialism does not produce security or stability, it produces conflict and death. Part of the reason it produces conflict and death is that it switches its support around, plays ‘enemy of my enemy’, and generally works in ways that, intentionally and unintentionally, promote civil war. There are endless examples of this, across continents. It is definitely the case in Afghanistan.

Utter bollocks. American intentions in Afghanistan are no more imperialistic than they were in Germany and Japan after WW2. Do you believe that Germany and Japan are now being ruled by the US?

Larkers @ 17 January 2009, 11:24 am

I take every opportunity to refute the myth that there is a “planned Grand Mosque at Beckton in east London will have “school for boys” but makes no mention of a similiar facility for females. I think we need to express our solidarity for the education of Moslem women” .

Easier said than done. I know of 2 mosques less than half a mile from my house that run fee-paying girls schools. They must take their own decisions, but I can’t help but think that getting involved in Sure Start would be more productive.

You quote Germany and Japan at me. I would reply, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Congo, Korea, Palestine, Guatemala, Iran, El Salvador, Chile, Rwanda-Burundi, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia…there are more. Not all of those are direct examples of US imperialism, or even imperialism by US allies. They are cases where attempts by one country (or rival countries) to determine the affairs of another have produced or encouraged internal or external conflict, with a vast cost in lives. Congo’s war is the bloodiest conflict since WWII, and UN reports have judged it to be maintained and inflamed by MNCs and their desire for minerals, acting through a host of local proxies. That’s not mentioning the damage done by Belgian imperialism, and the by the Cold War power-struggle post-independence.

Germany and Japan were both developed countries with strong domestic democratic movements, and as such they were able to develop to a more independent position. Also, they had the advantage that the US’s goals for them were to build them up as powerful allies in important regions.

“American intentions in Afghanistan”
It’s not really about their intentions. They are not free to decide what sort of effect to have. The logic of their nature and situation make their role a destabilising one.

More to the point, if their motives are as pure as you suggest, why the bombs? Why the endless civilian casualties? Why do they find themselves constantly killing the people they’re supposedly liberating?

because its become necessary to destroy em to save em you idiot!

“Why do they find themselves constantly killing the people they’re supposedly liberating?”

Don’t talk shit.

The Allied forces are targeting the Taliban – who are not the people who are being liberated. They are the oppressors, who have been overthrown.

Some good news – according to the Mail on Sunday Azad Ali has been suspended from his Civil Service post, and is facing dismissal, over comments made on his personal blog.

“Larkers, were they from the Indian side or the Pakistani? How long ago was this? (I’m Kashmiri…)” – Waseem.

Pakistani controlled Kashmir. His home region was subject to Indian Army shell fire on one return visit.

It was at this kindly man’s home that I ran into my first Islamist. I was subjected to a smiling interrogation about the failures of western civilisation for twenty or twenty five minutes, much to my friends embarrassment – hospitality had been violated I suppose.

All this happened long ago. I do not wish to identify anyone so you will have to trust me. I could give dates and so on but the thread is about extending education opportunities to Moslem women. Why is that an issue for men, do we think?

“Larkers @ 17 January 2009, 11:24 am
I take every opportunity to refute the myth that there is a “planned Grand Mosque at Beckton in east London will have “school for boys” but makes no mention of a similiar facility for females. I think we need to express our solidarity for the education of Moslem women” .– Alan Ji.

Please do not misquote me.

I did not write “I take every opportunity to refute the myth that there is a …” At least be more careful how you contextualise a quotation.

“You quote Germany and Japan at me. I would reply, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Congo, Korea, Palestine, Guatemala, Iran, El Salvador, Chile, Rwanda-Burundi, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia…there are more. Not all of those are direct examples of US imperialism, or even imperialism by US allies. They are cases where attempts by one country (or rival countries) to determine the affairs of another have produced or encouraged internal or external conflict, with a vast cost in lives. Congo’s war is the bloodiest conflict since WWII, and UN reports have judged it to be maintained and inflamed by MNCs and their desire for minerals, acting through a host of local proxies. That’s not mentioning the damage done by Belgian imperialism, and the by the Cold War power-struggle post-independence.” – Alderson Warm-Fork.

And this is relevant to women’s educatonal opportunities in what way?

My educat-i-onal opportunites need revision. (I am up because of my noisy student neighbours. Going back to bed – and leaving this thread now. Good night, [yawn!])

Larkers @ 18 January 2009, 4:42 am

There is a site in Beckton, next to Kingsford School, that once had two planning permissions for Mosques. Not much money raised and no Mosque. It is me, apparently not you, that takes every opportunity to refute the myth that there is a mega-mosque planned at West Ham.

“It is me, apparently not you, … ” Alan Ji.

There is nothing apparent about it, unless apparent has changed its meaning.

You might like to get the news organisations straight about this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1053877/Revealed-Muslim-bomb-plot-gangs-links-mega-mosque-east-London.html

The article is on another issue but there does seem to be a plan and it does, apparently, appear to be connected with building a Mosque.

But what has this got to do with extending equal educational opportunities to Moslem women? Either you do or do not wish it. Hardly a complicated idea.

“The Allied forces are targeting the Taliban”
Who they are (supposedly) targetting is less important than who they are killing, which is what I mentioned. They are killing lots of non-Taliban Afghans as “collateral damage”. This may or not may not be related to those US soldiers who are either mentally disturbed (as many people in a war like this will be) or racist (far-right groups encourage their members to join the army). It is related to the fact that they do not have widespread popular support, and so find themselves using air strikes on remote villages. The reason they do not have the widespread support that might allow them to fight in a less indiscriminate way is that they are an imperial occupation.

“And this is relevant to women’s educatonal opportunities in what way?”
The OP was clearly using the story of these courageous women as a stick to beat anti-imperialists with. The relevance is that the occupation forces, being so widely disliked, are in bad position to help or support women going to school because doing so will encourage people to associate Western feminism with Western bombings.

Larkers @ 18 January 2009, 12:32 pm

The “Mail” article is a rehash of the same old nonsense that the Christian People’s Alliance, Lawyers Christian Fellowship and Christian Voice have been putting about since June 2006. Michael Gove MP took it up once, and promptly dropped it; Pauline Neville-Jones ought to know better.

Islamist fringe elements attend mosques. Wow! Trostkyites sell papers outside Trade Union meetings and Bears shit in the woods. That does not mean that trade unions are trotskyite organisations, nor that the woods are full of Bear shit.

The picture is of model covering the whole site, whose effective function is to provide ammunition for opponents. It was made by Architects who used to work for the site owners, but don’t any more.

A planning application in 2001, for a mosque less than a third the size ofthe model, was refused for perfectly good Town Planning reasons of inadequate vehicular and pedestrian access to the site. The site owners have yet to solve those problems and have not submitted another planning application for new building.

If they ever do, they’ll be entitled to have it considered fair and square. So would you and I if we submitted identical plannning applications.