Harry's Place

Wonder if they are UN Schools? mmmm

Ah, now the IDF have stopped their baby-killing the entirely non-partisan HP can start giving a shit about Palestinians.

Yeps the new line of propaganda IDF and PA working hand in hand.

If Hamas are as popular as people like Michael Rosen suggest, how come they need to do this?

Bob-B:

Have you heard of the Chezchoslovak coup of 1948? A man called Masaryk, the last non-communist cabinet minister, fell to his death from a window. His father was the man who sold the idea of Chezchoslovakia to Woodrow Wilson at the end of the first world war.

Why did the Communists, who had won the elections and were the largest party in the Czecholslovak Parliament, need to do that?

And you ask why Hamas attack Fatah people now? Why did they carry out a coup after the Palestinian elections and throw Fatah people off buildings?

You might as well ask why Mink kill.

Indeed.

Michael Rosen lives in children’s stories land.

As if the abuse of Palestinians is usually such a hot topic at HP! However, clearly if the current Enemy No. 1 is doing it, it shall be mentioned.

Hamas should not be exclusively running the Gaza Strip. But the fact that they are is the result of Israel and US actions in not recognising Hamas as a legitimate element of government, and then rejecting the Hamas-Fatah unity government, under the red herring argument of Hamas’s “non recognition of Israel” which is an absurd argument on its face, as Israel well knows because it subsequently did negotiate with Hamas. Then a civil war, involving US backed Fatah forces, which resulted in a Hamas take over.

This split the Palestinians, which, for Israel, was the second best option after a US backed Fatah armed insurrection. In government, the totally inexperienced Hamas, starved of resources under a blockade and restrictions, were naturally likely to drift to extremism and paranoia, a kind of cabin fever. Of course one could say that would have happened anyway, depending on your view of Hamas, but if you apply such conditions it at any rate accelerates the process.

Up to then, the Palestinians had inconveniently stuck to the democratic track, with Hamas moderating; Palestinians naively assumed that this what was required, and they naively voted for another party, narrowly, in response to Fatah corruption.
However, again, that is precisely what Israel does not want. At this moment a bogeyman is required, and it better well play that role absolutely. None of this democracy lark, popular support, and talk of ceasefires, accommodation and 67 borders.

As if you give a shit about Palestinians Jim. Now the ‘baby-killing’ has stopped you’ll have to find something else to get yourself into an ‘anti-Zionist’ frenzy about. I’m sure you’ll find something.

Does Benjamin ever sleep?

From previous thread

Going to press charges then? B. Mackie

Mr Mackie, unless you have or are in the process of suing him then one must assume that you accept his assertions as being true. If that is the case I am sorry for goading you old bean…oops, sorry, young sprout.

I hope Hamas is not being disproportional.

Django, you cock, I spend half my time arguing with left friends about dangerous anti-semitic sub-texts in anti-war propaganda. You’re about right for this place; shabby partisan who’ll chuck humanitarian values out the window to carry water for one side or the other.

Ah, now the IDF have stopped their baby-killing the entirely non-partisan HP can start giving a shit about Palestinians.Jim

Django, you cock, I spend half my time arguing with left friends about dangerous anti-semitic sub-texts in anti-war propaganda.Jim

No blood libels in your first statement then?

Only if you were a gimlet-eyed pillock missing the fact that actual babies were killed.

Hey Chas, as the author of “Paris Hilton: Life on the edge” and “help I’m turning into my Dad”, should you reallybe making fun of Michael Rosen’s life in literature ?

If you’re anything to go by Jim, your ‘left friends’ must be real charmers. Members of an NKVD reenactment society perhaps?

The fact is your sub text was a blood libel. Did you froth at the mouth when Samir Kantar was released to his admirers in Lebanon?

And they’re off, cantering away into la-la land, oblivious to real death and destruction in a desperate game of partisan point-scoring. Shameful shitehawks.

Won’t answer direct question.

I’m off. CBA with you.

I see. The IDF kills children but you can’t say it because its a “blood libel” against Jews if you do so. Look guys, I really don’t want to believe what Norman Finkelstein says about some Israeli nationalists. He’s very rude about them, and he has an acid tongue. But if you are going to be that dumb…

Its almost a pastiche of his complaints.

I’ll answer your direct question – no, it wasn’t a blood libel. It was to highlight the most egregious humanitarian disaster attending the IDF onslaught. The fact that your first response could only parse it those terms shows how far you’ve lost the plot.

“Look guys, I really don’t want to believe what Norman Finkelstein says about some Israeli nationalists.” (Benjamin)

I am sure you don’t. I am sure you really really hate what N.F. says. You are just… you know… sTrolling around…

At least you are sad because Bush is going. I know it will be difficult for you, Benjo.

“ah, now the IDF have stopped their baby-killing” (Jim)

Yes, it was a blood-libel.

Ironica, Jim is only interested in ‘real’ death and destruction. Samir Kuntar doesn’t appear to qualify, despite his hands-on techniques.

“Ah, now the IDF have stopped their baby-killing the entirely non-partisan HP can start giving a shit about Palestinians.”

And you can stop.

Fabian

Well, I hope you can see the absurdity of the situation. IDF kills kids in Gaza. However, when you say this simple fact you get accused of issuing a “blood libel” against Jews.

When folk get that grotesquely bizarre, one has to reach for some sort of explanation.

Okay, Fabian, let’s ignore Finkelstein. Perhaps you could give me an explanation?

Again, you’re wrong. I’ve said here before I despise the various Islamist religious nationalists; their politics are certainly poisonous, they’re jam-packed with brutal psychos and their tactics are only going to get ordinary Palestinians and Israelis killed.
Now how about you having a crack at condemning the wilfully cavalier tactics of the IDF that slaughtered hundreds of civilians on what should have been a police action?

“Only if you were a gimlet-eyed pillock missing the fact that actual babies were killed.”

Jim, name the war where babies haven’t died.

“Well, I hope you can see the absurdity of the situation. IDF kills kids in Gaza. However, when you say this simple fact you get accused of issuing a “blood libel” against Jews.”

Benjo, do you see fit to describe what the IDF did in this war as “baby-killing”?

Brett – and you’d catch me saying the same about the Sri Lankan army or the militias in the DRC. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But if it gets you lot to actually engage with the issue, I undertake to vet my knee-jerk rhetoric more carefully in future.

The real tragedy of the situation is being sidelined by squabbling and point grabbing.

Hamas are back to slaughtering Fatah who they accuse of conspiring with Israel. I would be pointing the finger at the heroic UN who are no doubt busy cataloging the war crimes of Hamas in great detail and with overwhelming enthusiasm. (Cough spit).

I would also wonder what Israel is doing about this. And the much vaunted Palestinian Authority.

I don’t know Jim. I have a friend who came back from Uganda, where he commands a group of volunteers that try to help war orphans (mostly mutilated on purpose, I’ve seen his photos) to serve on the reserves and went into Gaza. Do you think that he got an order to do “baby-killing”? Do you think that he engaged in “baby-killing”? Or is the fact that, as Brett says, there is no war in which babies don’t die.

Benjo, do you see fit to describe what the IDF did in this war as “baby-killing”?

Well it seems likely that killing babies was one consequence of the IDF actions, although it would be a miscaricaturisation to describe its actions as wholly this.

Thank you Benjamin, that is all I wanted to know.

No Fabian, I think he was ordered by his government to take part in a military operation that planners knew would result in an enormous amount of civilian death and misery, including the death of babies. They could have used the kind of targetted actions that have been deemed sufficient in the past. Some cynical politicians were willing to countenance the inevitable slaughter (and also put young Israeli men and women in the armed forces at physical and moral risk) to further their own narrow ends.

“They could have used the kind of targetted actions that have been deemed sufficient in the past”

Against 60 rockets a day?

“Palestinian schools and hospitals being used as centres for ‘brutal torture’

How come I did not see this reported on the BBC (or ITV or Fox or Sky)?

Yes.

Hamas are back to slaughtering Fatah who they accuse of conspiring with Israel.

Hamas’s actions now are exacerbated by the position they were forced into, after the democratic route was cut off. They was no need for the Palestinian split and Hamas exclusive rule of Gaza, which came after the events I described earlier. Israel will cry crocodile tears over this subsequent Hamas brutality in Gaza. If you help create a climate that plays to extremism, that is what you will likely get.

“No Fabian, I think he was ordered by his government to take part in a military operation that planners knew would result in an enormous amount of civilian death and misery, including the death of babies.”

And Hamas had no idea when they launched their rocket attacks despite repeated warnings – not only from the Israelis – that this would end in tears, and launched those attacks from civillian areas, and stored their weapons in civilian homes and schools and mosques, that civilians would be killed?

Of course they did!

They asked for a war, they got it. Civilians, including babies, died. That’s what happens in a war. It’s shitty, but there you go.

‘name the war where babies haven’t died’

The Cod War.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/RRGP/CodWar.htm

Well, Jim, no Israeli agreed with your calm asessment.
That is why there was unanimous support for the operation.
Now is your turn to call us all “war criminals”. Ok?
Here: Then all of you are ____________________

And here: _________________________
Is the line when you ask every Jew in the world to condemn Israel or else they will be considered supporters of war criminals.

Thank you Benjamin, that is all I wanted to know.

Personally I would not describe the IDF as “baby killers”, because that is only one consequence of the action they took, although clearly a pretty awful and emotive one. However, its perfectly reasonable to note that the death of babies and kids is one consequence of the military action taken.

They could have used the kind of targetted actions that have been deemed sufficient in the past.

Had the Gaza strip remained under Israeli occupation this might have been true. Operation Defensive shield ended suicide bombings from the West Bank without killing any babies and relatively few civilians. It is only because the Israelis withdrew from Gaza that they had to launch a full scale military attack. Remember this when you hear Palestinian spokespersons calling for an end to the occupation.

You’re off on one again Fabian. Of course I don’t think Jewish people are obliged to condemn this or that en masse; I don’t think I/P is the worst example of a post-colonial bloodbath in the world today by a long chalk (Sri Lanka and the DRC noted above spring to mind), but it strikes me you’re in a “my country right or wrong” mindset that will countenance any and all actions by the current Israeli administration and the armed forces.

However, its perfectly reasonable to note that the death of babies and kids is one consequence of the military action taken.

Is that what Jim did though?

As far as I can tell, he blundered in with a swivel-eyed comment about the IDF stopping their baby-killing.

Jesus Benji, you don’t need to be an apologist for everyone who disagrees with HP, much as it seems to be written into your DNA.

However, its perfectly reasonable to note that the death of babies and kids is one consequence of the military action taken.

It was also a consequence of the military action to overthrow the Nazi regime. How often do you hear it being “noted”, reasonably or otherwise? I don’t think it was mentioned once in the ‘World at War’ documentary by Granada TV. It might well have been in a documentary made by David Irving or other Nazi sympathisers.

Now that the Allies have stopped their baby-killing, peace can come to Europe.

“but it strikes me you’re in a “my country right or wrong” mindset that will countenance any and all actions by the current Israeli administration and the armed forces.”

Jim, I don’t know why do you think that. But I will explain to you how I, personally, reached the decision to support the ground operation. It was when one night, after the start of the aerial operation, and when the Palestinian rockets reached Ashdod, my wife told me that if the rockets reach my city, Rishon LeTzion we will have to go back to Argentina for a while. I calmed her, and told her that this situation is unbearable, and therefore the army will soon have to act and save us.

In the end, the rockets did not reach my city. I live 50 km away from Gaza and the rockets had only a range of 40km.

You see, my thoughts were not: “this is the perfect moment for baby-killing by our genocidal machine of war” but “I hope the IDF is victorious or we will be in serious trouble.”

I mean… let us note that many innocent babies and children have been killed in this conflict.

But that’s practically the same as what I just said.

Fair enough fabian and I hope you and your family and neighbours no longer have to put up with that kind of threat, then at least one positive will have come out of this.
What I fear is that the rockets will still be fired, we’ll be further away from a political resolution than ever, and hundreds of people in Gaza will have died for nothing.

‘I’ve said here before I despise the various Islamist religious nationalists; their politics are certainly poisonous, they’re jam-packed with brutal psychos and their tactics are only going to get ordinary Palestinians and Israelis killed.’

To Jim’s credit, Bob Latchford, Flanker and company would never actually write something like this.

And Hamas had no idea when they launched their rocket attacks despite repeated warnings – not only from the Israelis – that this would end in tears, and launched those attacks from civillian areas, and stored their weapons in civilian homes and schools and mosques, that civilians would be killed?

Hamas was fully aware of the brutality and stupidity of an Israeli response. Both sides are brutalised and stupid in their ways. Israel entered into a ceasefire under false pretenses, when it was already planning this military attack; a ceasefire that lead to a total cessation of Hamas rocket attacks for four and half months and a 98% reduction in all rocket attacks in that period.

If the Israelis were only concerned about rocket attacks it could have entered into more ceasefires with Hamas.

“it is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict: 79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). In addition, we found that this pattern — in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause — becomes more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than 9 days.”

But rockets are not the main issue here. The main issue is deterrence and collective punishment, following by – if there is going to be any ‘deal’ with the Palestinians at all – a colonial stitch up.

Benjamin.

Israel will cry crocodile tears over this subsequent Hamas brutality in Gaza.

You are one sick dude.

We will cry for those who helped us to kill Hamas thugs and perverts and may now be being tortured and killed by Hamas.

That is why I wondered what Israel is doing about it. To some extent, we have responsibility for them.

Another aspect is that Israel must surely know if it is happening. Gaza is riddled with informers on Hamas. Are ‘humanitarian’ reporters in Gaza being text messaged and directed by Israel to places where this is taking place so that these ‘paragons of humanitarian care and war crime pseudo detectives’ can visit the buildings where the torture is taking place to film and document it.

Fair enough, Jim. Yesterday the Palestinians did not launch even one rocket against us. If an appropiate system to prevent arms smuggling is put in place, I don’t see why we should go back to Gaza again.

If the Israelis were only concerned about rocket attacks it could have entered into more ceasefires with Hamas.

What lies are these? Hamas refused to re-new the cease-fire when the 6-month truce ended and they started firing rocket barrages. What the hell do you think their negotiations with Egypt were about before the Israelis invaded Gaza?

“Hamas was fully aware of the brutality and stupidity of an Israeli response. “

FINALLY Benjamin admits that Hamas were responsible for setting the events in motion. Thank you!

Golda Meir is quoted as saying:

We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for making us kill their children.

That about sums it up for me.

Clap Hammer, when I say Israel, I mean the government, as is conventional. Please tell me why Israel will be bothered about Hamas chopping up fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

FINALLY Benjamin admits that Hamas were responsible for setting the events in motion. Thank you!

No, I don’t, and that response is rather indicative of your childish analysis. Both parties are fully responsible for their actions at all times.

I suppose Hamas has to make sure that it doesn’t have any rivals for the billions of aid money that will now flood into Gaza.

Right, so you people care about Palestinians dying now all of a sudden. The hypocrisy is nauseating.

I suppose Hamas has to make sure that it doesn’t have any rivals for the billions of aid money that will now flood into Gaza.

Israel, the US, the EU and Egypt will be doing everything that they can to prevent the money getting to Hamas. Even the money from Saudia Arabia will probably be channeled through the Palestinian Authority although I believe that their coffers are overflowing as we speak.

Jim

“Ah, now the IDF have stopped their baby-killing the entirely non-partisan HP can start giving a shit about Palestinians.”

Of course Harry’s place is partisan; as I see it, the whole place is crawling with Lefties. Makes my conservative skin crawl, it does.

But.
Like you, these HP folk can tell the difference between good (no shooting) and bad (people being killed.)

And.
Unlike you, it seems, on the Gaza/Hamas war, most of them can discern the difference between bad (Israel killing up to 1,000 people, of whom some were children, more of whom were adult civilians and others who were undoubtedly Hamas ‘fighters’ and civilian auxiliaries such as the engineers who pick the optimum points next to schools to place rockets and mortars, no doubt) and worse; which is the Islamists’ stated aim to destroy Israel.
And even if by some democratic miracle this meant just exiling the hated Jews from the shared Holy Land, just how many of them would make it out alive, do you think?

You’re halfway there, Jim, and you seem to stand up against ultra-Left anti-Semitism in the ‘Peace Movement’ [est. six years after the rocketing of Israel began but one minute after the Israeli air force went into Gaza]. That’s great and brave – it’s not easy going against your own side even in our democracy.

You just need to look a little further into the past – say to the Koran, Sira and Hadith, available in all mosques (be they armouries or not) and to the Hamas Charter which explicitly states it intends to destroy Israel and endorses the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

You are a humanitarian but I fear you viewpoint is too narrow.

The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence on Saturday candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.

“It is difficult to deal with terrorism through non-violence,” the Tibetan spiritual leader said delivering the Madhavrao Scindia Memorial Lecture here.

He also termed terrorism as the worst kind of violence which is not carried by a few mad people but by those who are very brilliant and educated.

“They (terrorists) are very brilliant and educated…but a strong ill feeling is bred in them. Their minds are closed,” the Dalai Lama said.
______________________

Those loopy peaceniks would do well to pay heed to the Dalai Lama.

It was also a consequence of the military action to overthrow the Nazi regime. How often do you hear it being “noted”, reasonably or otherwise? I don’t think it was mentioned once in the ‘World at War’ documentary by Granada TV. It might well have been in a documentary made by David Irving or other Nazi sympathisers.

Interesting. I can see why you chaps get so upset about the UN, Red Cross etc bleating about civilian casualties etc then. The insolence! This is WWII and the Nazis: no much pesky media, no condemnatory UN resolutions, a conventional battle against the Blitzkrieg and Panzer divisions of an advanced state.

Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more…

Jim,

Can I assume that you do not think the IDF set out to intentionally kill civilians? Your comment about “baby-killing” suggests you think it was deliberate, as opposed to something regrettable, an irrelevant distinction to the victims but an important distinction where you are trying to call into question the morality of the Israelis.

Any thoughts also on Hamas using women, kids and other civilians as human shields and kids as spotters for their attacks on the Israelis? It seems to be fairly generally accepted that this what Hamas was doing, happy to exploit civilian deaths for propaganda purposes. I think there are some international laws about this…

As for trying to convince your “anti-war” friends to drop the anti-semitism, very noble of you but you are probably on to a loser and perhaps you should just get some nicer friends. Personally I do not want to sit and have a pint with people who entertain these views and just gently try to bring them round. I would not sit with the BNP for example just on the off chance that they might change their opinions…

North Northwester – and I’d say you’re doing the mirror image of the Jesuitical gits who trawl Jewish culture and religion to come up with spurious and often anti-semitic critiques of the Israeli state.
Like any conflict, there’s certain particulars of history and religion etc. that will influence the various actors or provide ideological underpinnings, but in the larger picture it’s still colonialism and imperialism that loom larger than any clash-of-civilisations stuff – political Islam comes out of them, not thee other way round.
In Sri Lanka we see Sinhalese nationalism doing bizarre things with Buddhism; if you want to know why you don’t need a crash course in the Abhidharma.

Barad – I’ve set out my thoughts on Hamas above. The idea that they’re defending the Palestinian people is farcical. No doubt the odd young man has joined perhaps believing that is the case, but I am sure the leadership don’t care how many die if it furthers their political goals. And yes, their whacky religious views no doubt help them be cavalier about death.
I distinguish as friends those who really are pedalling some nasty anti-semitism dressed up as anti-war propaganda and those who (like myself apparently according to the comments above) end up buying into spurious conspiracy theories of politics that tap into the old anti-semitic lies.

Does Jim think that Islam cannot be used to justify imperialism? Wasn’t there such a thing as the Ottoman Empire once? Is it only exploitation by White Christian cuntries that upsets him? I mean, is exploitation by non-Christian, non-white people a Good Thing?

Sue R – it can certainly be used to justify imperialism, as can Buddhism, Confucianism and probably shamanism if you have a crack. But it’s post hoc.

I have read all this nonsense. I gave a lift to a pilot who had just returned from the onslaught on Hamas (not as the BBC would have it Gaza). He told me that he had a group of terrorists in his sights as they were about to launch a rocket. Just as he was about to press home his attack one of the terrorists snatched up a child who had been hidden at the side and held it up for the pilot to see. The pilot veered away from the attack as a consequence. So anyone accusing the IDF of being baby killers is an anti-Semite – full stop!

“Does Jim think that Islam cannot be used to justify imperialism? Wasn’t there such a thing as the Ottoman Empire once?”

It still is, and always will be.

“..as can Buddhism, Confucianism and probably shamanism if you have a crack”

Love to see you do so

Read the Yongzheng emperors polemics with a pro-Ming scholar in Spence’s “Treason By the Book” then get back to me.

Cas

Those loopy peaceniks would do well to pay heed to the Dalai Lama.

Yes.

Thank you for that Cas.

Not that I have heard may loony lefties referring to the Dalai Lama.

Probably due to the high price that tablets of his dried stools cost.

Interesting. I can see why you chaps get so upset about the UN, Red Cross etc bleating about civilian casualties etc then. The insolence! This is WWII and the Nazis: no much pesky media, no condemnatory UN resolutions, a conventional battle against the Blitzkrieg and Panzer divisions of an advanced state.

Benji you pratt, not even the UN and Red Cross have gone as far as calling the IDF “baby killers”. I am sure infants were among the 700 Serb civilians killed by NATO in 1999? Yet anyone who called NATO “baby killers” would rightly be accused of blood libel and crude propaganda.

Maybe this story is correct. Then again, maybe it isn’t.

I may be wrong here, but I think that Jim came on this thread too hard, used to some ways of speaking that now, sadly, are common on the left about Israel, but without mean intentions.
I don’t see Jim as a nutter, or someone who you can’t argue with.
I also agree with him that “Islam” is not the problem but extremist political Islam (Islamism), and also that there are objective issues to be solved among the Israelis and the Palestinians.
His initial comment was very unhappy, but I think that he has realized that.
Of course, I may be wrong.

Thank you, Fabian. My comment was motivated by the horror of child death that attends any modern mechanical warfare in civilian areas; I can see how it ties into just the kind of narratives I’ve said I despise and I have realised what a crap choice of words it was.

“Probably due to the high price that tablets of his dried stools cost.”

You take them?

Benji you pratt, not even the UN and Red Cross have gone as far as calling the IDF “baby killers”.

Not the issue we were discussing. It was about noting the death of children, as referenced.

The “anti Israel defending itself” argument now seems to be – children died while Israel was defending itself therefore Israel killed children on purpose. No rhyme and reason just pure anti Israel hatred.

Apply that to any other conflict where children died and you end up with every nation that ever went to war being generally guilty of war crimes. Definitely all the Allies in WW2 would be. Probably NATO in Kosovo as well – civilians died then as well.

Is that the new Western idiot Left line – “We are all war criminals now” ?

The idea that they’re defending the Palestinian people is farcical. No doubt the odd young man has joined perhaps believing that is the case, but I am sure the leadership don’t care how many die if it furthers their political goals. And yes, their whacky religious views no doubt help them be cavalier about death.

Do you know about the history of Hamas, Jim?

“Read the Yongzheng emperors polemics with a pro-Ming scholar in Spence’s “Treason By the Book” then get back to me.”

To prepare yourself, read up Alan Watts on Buddhism also Life Of Mila Repa

Some, Benjamin; and it strikes me their rise to power is analogous with Sinn Fein – community politics noticeably less corrupt than the incumbent Fatah got them support, not their crackers religious-nationalist strategy of taking the fight to Israel, a fight they could only lose in shooting terms (and not even shooting mainly at the IDF) but might reap political rewards. Craven and counter-productive.

The charge of war crimes against Israel is a) not coming from the loony left, but from credible sources like Amnesty International, and b) is rather more detailed than simply killing children. See here:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/uploads/documents/doc_19100.pdf

Jim is obviously a person who can operate both in the rhetorical arena of the saloon bar and in a forum, and, as far as I can see, he was so angry he said something he didn’t mean to say and has made that abundantly clear.

There are less tower buildings left in gaza: less executions of handcuffed fatah members, splattering the sidewalk.

Surely, the UNHRC will praise the IDF for that.

Is Jim also Benji?

Why don’t the oh so independent journalists at the BBC tell us about this.

Every time an Israeli steps on a Palestinian toe it’s big news.
Remember the “Jenin Massacre”, allegations of which al Beeb has yet to withdraw

If you knew more about Hamas you may not have written it in quite the way you did, Jim. I’ll let you research it.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, I support these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Initiative

“The charge of war crimes against Israel is a) not coming from the loony left, but from credible sources like Amnesty International, “

Can you name a war that Amnesty International has monitored that they’ve given the thumbs up, the ‘all clear’, as far as war crimes are concerned?

“charge of war crimes against Israel is a) not coming from the loony left, but from credible sources like Amnesty International.”

Mr Irie, did you type that with a straight face?

Ghengis Khan is thought to have been a Shamanist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Religion

Meanwhile people get burnt alive in a Central African Church by the Lord’s Resistance Army.

But no-one gives a toss about that one.

Can you name a war that Amnesty International has monitored that they’ve given the thumbs up, the ‘all clear’, as far as war crimes are concerned?

What an absolutely absurd statement to make.

Or indeed about the massacres the LR have carried out recently in general;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7837526.stm

‘Amnesty International’ gives:

An insanity! O, let me rant. (by Stanley Accrington by hand) (1995)
Nasty retention — Animal! (by Wayne Baisley) (2005)
Nominate alien tyrants. (by Mick Tully using Anagram Genius) (2005)
Rational, eminent, nasty! (by Dante Filipponi using Anagram Genius) (2003)
Note maternal insanity! (by Dante Filipponi using Anagram Genius) (2003)
http://www.anagramgenius.com/archive/amnest.html

Here’s something to think about for the Jims of this thread:

1. The israeli arabs (except for one incident), together with the West Bank arabs, kept quiet during the entire strike. No terror attacks, no major riots. Compare this to the riots in 2006.

2. People like Jim can’t hear the truth if it’s spoken with a jewish mouth. Maybe an arab voice is louder:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kToarRlVIvQ&eurl=http://www.israellycool.com/

Brett is, even by HP standards, a complete and utter joke. I’m surprised the others let him post his drivel.

Theirie now gives credence to his israel bashing by quoting Amnesty International let’s see now is this the same AI of which
NGO-Monitor said of one of its annual reports it “reflects the absence of credible research, the abuse of the rhetoric of human rights, and an overriding political agenda.”

According to NGO-Monitor, AI “failed to meet the objectives of its mission statement.” By disproportionately focusing on the U.S. and Israel, “where violations of human rights are the exception, not the norm”, AI has “exploit[ed] human rights rhetoric in the service of narrow political objectives.”

So dream on!

“Brett is, even by HP standards, a complete and utter joke. I’m surprised the others let him post his drivel.”

That is TheIrie’s code for “oh dear, that question is too difficult – or inconvenient – to answer, so I’d better lash out at the person asking it”.

That some folk here don’t like Amnesty International is unsurprising. After all it is a human rights organisation.

However, perhaps you would like to specifically deal with the concerns raised in the report The Irie posted?

NGO-Monitor – yes, that’s a good credible, objective source. I think I’ll stick to AI if you don’t mind. Or, if you only trust Israeli sources, try B’TSelem, who were the first to raise the charge of war crimes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/18/israel-war-crimes-gaza-conflict

Brett

If you knew one tiny thing about human rights you would know that your so called question is utterly 100% absurd and completely irrelevant.

“That some folk here don’t like Amnesty International is unsurprising. “

It’s not a question of not liking AI. It’s a question of getting perspective: which war or conflict has happened where they have given it a clean bill of health, war crime wise?

It’s a simple question.

Sue him Benji!

Brett, your question “Can you name a war that Amnesty International has monitored that they’ve given the thumbs up, the ‘all clear’, as far as war crimes are concerned?” is completely ridiculous. This is the kind of line I’d expect from the Serb authorities after Srebrenica. It is a line that could be used to justify any attrocity. To even contemplate it is degrading. The mental gymnastics you are engaging in to absolve Israel of any responsibility for its own chosen actions is very transparent.

What does Mads Gilbert have to say about all this? Which papers/TV news programmes are carrying his eyewitness accounts? I haven’t spotted any so far.

“If you knew one tiny thing about human rights you would know that your so called question is utterly 100% absurd and completely irrelevant.”

So humour me.

It’ll be less effort in the long run than finding new and imagninative ways to explain why you can’t or won’t answer the question.

I take it George Galloway, Jenny Tonge, Annie Lennox and Anas Al Tikriti have already taken to the streets to protest against this barbarous violence against Palestinians?

““Can you name a war that Amnesty International has monitored that they’ve given the thumbs up, the ‘all clear’, as far as war crimes are concerned?” is completely ridiculous. This is the kind of line I’d expect from the Serb authorities after Srebrenica. It is a line that could be used to justify any attrocity.”

I’m not trying to ‘justify’ anything.

Can you answer the question?

Brett

Its a totally irrelevant question, and therefore not worth answering.

“I take it George Galloway, ……..violence against Palestinians?”

Nah, they are going around first collecting the shoes the`ll have to throw at the Jews.

Sue R

It was the loss of the Muslim Caliphate nominally held by the Ottoman Sultan until abolished in 1923 that incensed hassan Al Banna and other Muslim revivalists so much that it led to his founding of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The core feature of this new Islamist nationalism was primarily opposition to the Zionist project in Palestine and secondarily to Western Imperialism (Eastern Imperialism being as it always had been perfectly acceptable).

In fact western Colonialism such as it was (except in the Maghreb) had only the lightest touch upon the Arab middle east which emerged almost immediately as successor states to the ottoman Empire sponsored by the British and French.

During WWII Arab sympathies for the Nazis were incredibly strong (as known by British intelligence at the time) and had the Panzer army not been stopped at Al Alamein and entered Palestine it would have been enthusiastically been met by locals keen to help them drive out the jews.

Banna who was a great fan of Hitler (he wrote to him several times) and was very influential in seeding the nascent palestinian nationalist movement with Nazi anti-semitism along with his his co-Islamist the grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

Al Husseini seeking asylum in Germany, fleeing the British (after having been central to organising jewish massacres including the destruction of the ancient hebron community), met with Hitler, Himmler and specifically the directorate of the einsatzgruppen engineers of the final solution which he enthusiastically adopted and assisted with in the liquidation of the Bosnian Jews.

Hamas specifically and jihadism more generally is the direct descendant of this Muslim Brotherhood, fusion of historic Muslim Jew hatred with the modernist politics of totalitarianism and the antisemitism of the Nazis.

If we wish to look for ideological descendents of and direct analogues for the nazis it is not in israel but in Hamas we find it.

Only a post socialist ‘left’ that is obseesed with an anti-colonialism and anti-Imperialism that even at the 19thC height of its paradigmatic form never applied to the Arab world, and sees in this ‘Colonialism’ the origin of all contemporary world conflicts, could fail to see who are the real nazis in this srory.

“Its a totally irrelevant question, and therefore not worth answering.”

Well, you can’t know it is irrelevant because you don’t know where I’m going with this line of enquiry. Or perhaps you do, and that’s why you won’t answer.

Yes, I can call it irrelevant, I just have, and I will again if necessary – until you get it into your head that it is irrelevant, offensive and I am not going to answer it. It’s irrelevant on its face. Period.

“Yes, I can call it irrelevant, I just have, and I will again if necessary – until you get it into your head that it is irrelevant, offensive and I am not going to answer it. It’s irrelevant on its face. Period.

Okay then, well you may as well sign off this thread now. Bye bye.

“you don’t know where I’m going with this line of enquiry” No, its completely obvious where you’re going, you simpleton. You “argument” is that since Amnesty has probably condemned war crimes in every single war, there is nothing unusual or wrong with Israels conduct in Gaza. Similar arguments could have been given by any tyrant in the world to justify their attrocities. And that is also your point – to justify Israeli attrocities.

The Big Lies
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/bigLies.asp

http://www.honestreporting.com/

“You “argument” is that since Amnesty has probably condemned war crimes in every single war, there is nothing unusual or wrong with Israels conduct in Gaza. “

My argument is that war is nasty. War itself is a crime. It is what happens when civilised means break down. There is no such thing as a war crime-free war. Of course, by Amnesty’s standards, israel committed war crimes. By Amnesty’s standards, so did Hamas. And so did every other country that has ever fought a war. Where there is war, there are war crimes. Where there are dogs, there is dog shit. That doesn’t excuse it, it smells and it is unpleasant to step in it, but there you go. What you gonna do?

The only simpleton is you, who evidently expect people to shoot at each other, fire rockets and mortars and set off bombs and somehow expect that, in all the noise and the smoke and the blood and the fear and the panic and the confusion, that nothing will happen that Amnesty will get, justifiaby, upset about.

So I ask you again, if Amnesty agree that both Israel and Hamas, and ideed every party to every war since their inception, has committed war crimes, what is so extraordinary about the fact that Amnesty registers Israeli war crimes in particular?

Gosh, this thread is really crap; old skool. Benji, TheIriot and more.

Sorry to get back on topic but yes, it is extremely hypocrital that the media, who gave us an hourly headcount of Palestinian civilian casualties over the last month…have suddenly lost interest.

Its brown skins killing brown skins. Its not very exciting. This attitude is a little ‘hypocritical’ and ‘racist’. But unsurprising.

But hey, Israel won the war, the left hoped for a bloody nose and it didn’t happen.

Nor do the great and the good at the Beeb, The Guardian and most news outlets, seem to think the the Hamas claims that they have destroyed 50 IDF tanks and killed 80 IDF soldiers put the various casualty figures they have put out over the last 4 weeks into some sort of perspective. ie they are full of shit really.

Now you can all go back to indulging the increasingly ludicrous (and still unemployed!!) benjamin and the rather unpleasant Iriot.

Israel is very unlikely to get into trouble for ‘War Crimes’ for a very simple reason. The countries that have the power to pursue this, Russia, UK, US know that the IDF are not ‘baby-killers’.

They know that in the same situation their own armies would behave much worse. Indeed, in Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan they have.

Now you can all go back to indulging the increasingly ludicrous (and still unemployed!!) benjamin and the rather unpleasant Iriot.

MattG

Sue Benji sue!

Brett – Amnesty has noted war crimes on both sides, as you can see from the report I linked to. They haven’t singled Israel out at all.

However, I will single out Israel, because the scale and nature of the war crimes commited by Israel in the last fortnight are far worse than anything that has ever been attributed to Hamas, or indeed the sum-total of everything Hamas has ever done. Hamas hasn’t destroyed civilian infrastructure. It hasn’t killed anything like the number of civilians killed by Israel. 1300+ dead. $1.5 billion of damage to a society already on the verge of starvation and in a humanitarian catastrophe. Hamas hasn’t fired white phosphorous at schools. It hasn’t gunned down civilians carrying a white flag. Furthermore, it was a war of choice by Israel, justified using lies about stoping rockets. It is, objectively, the worst situation in the world between 27th December and today. No need to invoke claims of bias or “moral-equivalence”. The outcomes of Israeli actions speak for themselves. If you choose to ignore these crimes, saying that if you criticise Israel you’re an anti-Semite (as you have said repeatedly), then you have no moral right to talk about anything Hamas or anyone else does.

“Hamas hasn’t destroyed civilian infrastructure. It hasn’t killed anything like the number of civilians killed by Israel. 1300+ dead.”

So you’re saying that Hamas is more restrained than Israel?

Okay. Fine. Now het back on topic. We’re had countless threads about Israel, but as far as I can see, they’re not party to this story. This thread is about the 100+ Fatah people killed, wounded or tortured by Hamas, you know, the Palestinian deaths that no one seems to think are very newsworthy – and certianly not worth marching about.

“If you choose to ignore these crimes, saying that if you criticise Israel you’re an anti-Semite (as you have said repeatedly), “

That is not the reason I’d call you an antisemite. You, and others, are antisemites because of all the conflicts in the world, this one offends you the most. This is the one you will march for, and smash windows for. And it’s neither the biggest, the most urgent, the worst in terms of human misery or the scale of attrocity. But you pick on this one – because Jews are involved.

I’m just listening to Investigations, linked to by ami the other day, about the UNHRC. The Sudan Ambassador to the UN said no country has a clean human rights record, and therefore can’t sit in judgement of other nations… “our record is better than many of the countries criticising us”. Sounds exactly like Brett.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00gm35g

I’m with MattG. Benji is almost single-handedly ruining this blog; which, of course, is exactly what he wants.

Until something is done to prevent Benji ruining every thread that looks like it might provide a useful discussion, I’m going to stay away from the comments boxes.

You fucking eejits who answer him never learn, do you?

Brett – you pick and choose which deaths to focus on. So, if Hamas kills Fatah (and that is an if – its sourced to a Fatah spokesman, so I don’t know how reliable this is, as compared with the report I linked to showing how the Israeli invasion has united militant Fatah and Hamas groups against Israel, and potentially undermining Mahmood Abbas), that gets your attention. If Fatah kills Hamas, or other Palestinian’s that’s ignored (for the time being, anyway). If Israel kills Palestinians its ignored or if thats not possible, its excused.

I’m not going to dignify your accusation of anti-Semitism, which has no basis in anything other than your desperation.

Has there been any mention by the UN or ICRC in Gaza about Hamas War Crimes in summary executions and torture?

Has there heck??

Why not? They were bleating about Israel every 5 mins.

A clear double-standard.

Hamas supporters in LA: “Put the Jews back in the Ovens”

Los Angeles, January 6, 2009 in front of the Israeli Consulate. One group supporting Israel’s right to self defense as any other nation. The other group supports the Hamas terror organization, the destruction of Israel and the mass extermination of Jews, celebrating the Nazi holocaust.

Watch the short Video

http://www.road90.com/watch.php?id=oZ91NttO13

Brett is, even by HP standards, a complete and utter joke. I’m surprised the others let him post his drivel.

A new low? On second thoughts, fuck off.

Hamas hasn’t destroyed civilian infrastructure.

Yes it has.

It hasn’t killed anything like the number of *civilians* killed by Israel. 1300+ dead.

Nor has Israel.

Brownie – ask David T about an email I sent him yesterday.

I have two contentions. One: that the sum total of everything Hamas has done in its 20 odd year history doesn’t compare to what Israel has done in Gaza between 27th December and today. Two: that no other region in the world was suffering as badly as was Gaza in the first weeks of 2009. These two facts, if true, demonstrate objectively that focussing on Israeli war crimes should be any vaguely progressive individuals priority today. And I, obviously, contend that they are true.

Only if you were a gimlet-eyed pillock missing the fact that actual babies were killed.

Which is why you don’t refer to Hamas as baby-killers, or the Israeli military as killing reactionary-theocratic-racists. Oh, wait.

My argument is that war is nasty. War itself is a crime. It is what happens when civilised means break down. There is no such thing as a war crime-free war.

Your comment is exactly the sort of relativism that is frequently imputed to others on this space. There’s no such thing as a crime-free society either but this doesn’t stop us identifying offences that we consider crimes – nor does it stop us from quantifying crime.

“Two: that no other region in the world was suffering as badly as was Gaza in the first weeks of 2009. “

Two thousand people died of Cholera in Zimbabwe – totally preventable and forecast by health workers in the field. Villagers boiled the animal skin rugs of the floor in an attempt to give their children some nourishment. All predicted, except in many quarters those who warned of the looming crisis were accused of racism and imperialism. Nothing was done. Few cared.

One: that the sum total of everything Hamas has done in its 20 odd year history doesn’t compare to what Israel has done in Gaza between 27th December and today.

True, but of debatable relevance and clearly the tortuously narrowly-defined work of a pathologically dishonest cheat.

Two: that no other region in the world was suffering as badly as was Gaza in the first weeks of 2009.

Demonstrably false, as already discussed in this thread.

These two facts (sic.), if true, demonstrate objectively that focussing on Israeli war crimes should be any vaguely progressive individuals priority today.

What about on 21 January?

And I, obviously, contend that they are true.

That’s because you’re lying.

Benjamin,

I have answered your question about Hamas being democratically elected before. Repeating the question every thread doesn’t actually make the assumptions implicit in your question any more valid.

Israel, the US and Europe refused to enter into negotiations with Hamas after they “won” their elections, not because they don’t like Hamas politics, but because Hamas don’t want to negotiate.

Hamas came to power declaring that they are not bound by previous agreements that the PA, and its representative had entered into. So after 10+ years of agreements between the PA and the world, one election latter and the whole thing is ripped up. This is the definition of bad faith.

While no-one like to negotiate under “preconditions” there is one implied precondition in all negotiations, that is that the starting point is from the agreements that you have already made. Everyone in the world, bar you, recognizes that you cannot start a new round of negotiations as if the last round never happened. You simply would never achieve anything.

In Hamas’s case, of course, you have a unique problem. They continue to refuse to recognizes Israel’s right to exist, hence they are only every going to negotiate in order to strengthen their strategic position to achieve their aim and provoke a war they think they can ultimately win. All treaties to them are interim, to be thrown away when they are no longer convenient. Hence the controversy of the “Hudna” proposal…ultimately Hamas never offered peace, only a temporary cessation until they thought they were in a position to effect change some other way.

The same is true of the recently expired ceasefire that Hamas entered into. The six month were used by Hamas a cover to arm themselves with more sophisticated weapons. Once they thought they could damage Israel with greater effect they simply opted instead for war. They made a grievous miscalculation.

(Truthfully, I also think that this was Arafat’s position. You know the staged plan. Achieve certain political objectives through negotiation, and when those exhausted themselves, resort again to violence.)

You see, people, this is why there will never be peace in the region and why the Palestinian people has no true friends. Those who support Hamas do so unconditionally, and when it’s time to talk about any change in behaviour or strategy by any Palestinian organisation – particularly Hamas – the line is “No, let’s rather talk about Israel”.

Hamas can’t beat Israel in an armed confrontation, and their attempts to do so simply culminate in the events of the past two weeks. But nobody friendly asks them to question whether indocrtinating their children with Mickey Martyr Mouse, breeding suicide bombers and firing rockets is a reasonable and productive way forward. No one calls them on it when they murder and torture their political opponents.

So, what sort of society do you expect? Even if Hamas finally wins, and Israel disappears off the map, what sort of society do you think will emerge under their leadership? I’m guessing that few here would like to live under it.

There are only two hopes of progress for the Palestinain people in Gaza: Hamas is marginalised or destroyed. Hamas is persuaded, through critical and constructive engagement, to evolve into something more reasonable and progressive.

For the second option, it needs friends. It has none of the sort required. That leaves the first option, which Israle natuarally keeps on the table.

“it is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict:…

Benjamin there are a couple of things wrong with this comment. Not least of which is that I would like to know where you are quoting from.

Secondly, while I have difficulty believing the comment as a whole, the word “kill” in place of “provocation” is very misleading. Hamas lobing missiles across the border (or Hezbollah for that matter) are clear acts of provocation. That they may or may not kill someone ignores the fact that they are clearly aimed at killing people. That they fail to do so is merely bad luck from the launches perspective.

Thirdly, “Kill” ignores “attempts to kill” such as failed and intercepted suicide bombs.

Fourthly, “Kill” ignores border transgressions such as “kidnappings”.

And of course “kill” ignores the fact that some of those “killed” may have been actively engaged in trying to “kill” and were prrevented by their own untimely death.

Indeed Benjamin, without a source, and an analysis of how the statistics were compiled,… well their are lies, damn lies and then their are statistics. yours my friend, are of the damn lie category.

Did The Irie choose his name because he thought that as an eagle, (and every eagle has its adler tag), he had a superior overview of the world but couldn’t spell eyrie?

Or did he think he was so prescient he was eerie? Weird more like.

. Hamas is persuaded, through critical and constructive engagement, to evolve into something more reasonable and progressive.

What would NAZIism be without the NAZIs?

The treatment of Jim in the comments here is really quite reprehensible. You don’t have to jump through hoops and pass tests before you can be allowed to criticise Israel.

The real worst though was that even Benji felt obligated to sneer and condescend towards him for daring to break the “All Benji All the Time” rule. More and more this place is becoming a lesson in how one or two trolls can ruin all debate for everyone.

“Repeating the question every thread doesn’t actually make the assumptions implicit in your question any more valid.”

Which is why I’m happy to declare this a Benjamin-free thread.

No, Jim opened the comments with a reprehensible and emotionally charged statement, that even he acknowledges was a mistake.

Twitcher, he chose it ‘cos of Bob Marley.

Hamas v Fatah 2007 http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/937052/hamas_militants_kill_6_fatah_bodyguards/index.html

Hamas are child-killers. In fact killers of Palestinian children

During one of the Hamas – Fatah conflicts Hamas fighters killed three schoolchildren in a Fatah leader’s 4×4, riddling it with 60 bullets”

According to Benji logic, this event would not make it into the statistics of who “killed” first:

Gaza gunmen fire at IDF patrols in first cease-fire violations
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292915656&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

“Gaza gunmen fired at IDF patrols on Tuesday afternoon in two separate incidents that mark the first violations of the cease-fire declared Sunday by Hamas.

No one was wounded and no damage was reported in the two incidents, which took place near the Kissufim border crossing, in central Gaza, and in southern Gaza. “

Is that true Alec?

A new low? On second thoughts, fuck off.

The first recorded new low on Harry’s Place was in this thread from March 2004, so it’s coming up to its 5 year anniversary. Since then of course there have been new lows at a rate of nearly one per week, the most recent being yesterday. It’s quite impressive that HP can keep coming up with them.

One: that the sum total of everything Hamas has done in its 20 odd year history doesn’t compare to what Israel has done in Gaza between 27th December and today

30 apples don’t equal 27 bananas either!

If you compare what all fighters with the first name Mohammed did compared to what all members of IDF with the first name Shlomo did then …..er….. What was your point again?

Bejamin:

“As if the abuse of Palestinians is usually such a hot topic at HP! However, clearly if the current Enemy No. 1 is doing it, it shall be mentioned.”

Unfortunately I have to give a piano lesson in a moment, so will have to be very brief. Benji talks about the abuse of Palestinians as not being a hot topic on HP. In my experience it has been, and certianly in my posts, I have never tired of pointing out the abuse of Palestinians by Hamas, but a reply to this matter was scrupulously avoided.

This thread leaves me dumb and speechless. Smart-Alec arguments being bandied about in the face of real barbarism, in the face of real. wilful barabarism, such as people having their eyes put out. Oh no! they reply , but Israel killed babies (albeit unintentionally and in a war situation). Be thankful that Israel, for the moment, has prevented intentional baby-killing on a massive scale.

The expression “baby killing” is repeated in an almost jokey way. Is Benjamin fully aware of what the death of men, women and children, the putting out of eyes, means? Can one find such easy words for absolute barbarism?

You’re lucky I’m not a moderator on HP. I would have cancelled the whole thread and explained why.

In case anyone missed it. Hamas has declared victory

Haniyeh: We have achieved victory
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292901812&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Or perhaps you missed this story

Hamas: We’ll keep smuggling weapons

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292903870&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

“Hamas hasn’t destroyed civilian infrastructure.” (Andrew Ireson)

Bullshit – South hit by 849 rockets during war

“Roads and buildings in cities, towns and villages across the South sustained widespread damage from rocket craters and shrapnel fallout, including metal balls placed in the rockets which fly out in all directions upon impact.

The Interior Ministry has proposed a NIS 300 million aid package for the South to help the region deal with reconstruction efforts.”

The situation in Zimbabwe is obviously appalling, but the death toll is over a longer period, and even then is comparable with the death toll in Gaza. So I don’t think it is clearly any worse than the situation in Gaza, and is probably better (in the period we are discussing). So, my assertion stands.

I am sure that now that Andrew Ireson has been shown a liar, he will repent and contribute to the reconstruction efforts of Israel’s South. Or is he an hypocrite?

Twitcher, indeed

Ven, hours spent listening to Bob Marley leads me to think Irie is Patwa for Alright, as in Feelin Irie. Irie Man. etc etc. I just like the sound of it.

Yes, you’re right, Fabian, but in the case of Gaza its on a completely different scale.

In case anyone missed it. Hamas has declared victory

“Another such victory over the Romans, and we are undone.” Pyrrus

It is better described as “damaged” not “destroyed” in the case of southern Israel.

Two thousand people died of Cholera in Zimbabwe – totally preventable and forecast by health workers in the field. Villagers boiled the animal skin rugs of the floor in an attempt to give their children some nourishment. All predicted, except in many quarters those who warned of the looming crisis were accused of racism and imperialism. Nothing was done. Few cared.

Do you mean people should be dealing with this instead of looking at what happened in Gaza, or as well as?

The situation in Zimbabwe is obviously appalling, but the death toll is over a longer period, and even then is comparable with the death toll in Gaza.

You absolute utter, utter, utter racist creep. It’s only black Africans. I bet you think the animals there are majestic. Not only that, you cannot count – 2,000 is greater than 1,300, and none combatants, all over only a marginally longer timescale and not in active conflict.

Besides you have already been provided with examples of comparable death tolls in southern Uganda (no mention of elsewhere in the Great Lakes Region) or northern Sri Lanka… or will you progressively redefine the parameters and argue in the most bad of faith – only between 27/12 and 20/1 to name just one repellent example – exclude everywhere other than Israel.

Sam, as well as. That they don’t is the question.

Alec – I am talking specifically about operation cast lead – which commenced on 27th December. I’m unaware of an unnatural death toll that is higher in the same period. If you know of one, please enlighten me.

The situation in Zimbabwe is obviously appalling, but the death toll is over a longer period, and even then is comparable with the death toll in Gaza. So I don’t think it is clearly any worse than the situation in Gaza, and is probably better (in the period we are discussing). So, my assertion stands.

So no march for them then. Not even a picket? In fact, the only person I know who has stood with Zimbabwean activists at their vigil outside their embassy is Peter Tatchell.

Shame on you, shame on you all.

Care to start posting by a meaningful name?

the sum total of everything Hamas has done in its 20 odd year history doesn’t compare to what Israel has done in Gaza between 27th December and today.

Jesus, some people have short memories. Have you already forgotten about the hundreds of Israeli civilians deliberately targetted and blown up by Hamas suicide bombers? Have you forgotten how such attacks were celebrated in Gaza?

Does Israel have to wait until Hamas poses the same kind of threat that Hitler did before it can defend itself? Based on their behaviour to date, it is obvious that Hamas would commit genocide against Israeli Jews if it ever had the means, which is why Israel is justified in stopping them before they get the chance.

“It is better described as “damaged” not “destroyed” in the case of southern Israel.” (Andrew Ireson)

You are playing with words as always. How much money will you contribute for Israel’s South? Or do you care only for the Palestinian civilians?

Ah, now the IDF have stopped their baby-killing the entirely non-partisan HP can start giving a shit about Palestinians.

You really really don’t like those hook-nosed Joos, do you?

A very senior member of the Israeli Defence Ministry said that the impact of the rockets was more psychological than physical. Obviously they can cause damage and sometimes death, but if you look at the number of deaths for the number of rockets, and the fact the rockets are unguided, many landing on open ground, it would be incorrect to say they represent any serious threat to Israel. They certainly are not serious offensive military weapons. I think Israel is designing some sort of defensive system against them anyway.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129517

PA Internecine Killings Continued as War Raged

In a January 6, 2009, broadcast on Fatah-controlled PA TV, translated by Palestinian Media Watch, a well-known Arab singer said Hamas “gangs of the anarchic security forces” killed a relative of his. “The father was killed right in front of his children, because he didn’t stay at home after they placed him under house arrest,” the singer said, “he and everyone who belongs to Fatah.”

The PA newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, also affiliated with Fatah, reported on January 9 on “liquidations of Fatah members in the Gaza Strip by members of Hamas.” The newspaper quoted a Gaza resident who claimed that Hamas gunmen killed her father and injured nine other family members, “among them were three small children and two young people in critical condition….”

That they don’t is the question.

Do you then?

hope the IDF is victorious or we will be in serious trouble

Ah, but screeching Jew-haters who have never been out of Islington in their entire lives, never mind within 1000 miles of being shelled, can’t grasp this.

Thanks Alec. Ganga sometimes has bad effects on some people…

This is news:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057129.html

Gaza reporter caught on tape confirming Hamas fired rockets near TV offices

Alec – I am talking specifically about operation cast lead – which commenced on 27th December.

Who cares about that? That’s barely three weeks. England hasn’t won the World Cup since 1966. Tasteless? So are you.

I’m unaware of an unnatural death toll that is higher in the same period.

As always, that doesn’t mean you’re not wilfully deceitful. Shall we take an equal timescale in, say, 1943? Or when Lebanon bombed Palestinian residential areas?

Or is it only artificially defined criteria which paint Israel in the worst possible light?

If you know of one, please enlighten me.

You. Have. Been. Told. You. Liar.

anon seems, even now, unable to grasp the fact that Hamas shelled Israel, was asked many times to stop, and eventually Israel had no choice but to respond. But then, those murdered in Sderot are only Jews.

anon, condemn the Hamas members who injured Arab children after shooting their father in front of them. Or, does Al-Hayat Al-Jadida also make stories up? Do we only believe Hamas newspapers now?

So basically the test you apply is that people demonstrating against Israel’s military actions have to have demonstrated about a number of other issues too?

Fabian, I saw that video yesterday. Why does she think it’s so funny that Hamas were firing rockets from a civilian building?

Sorry not sure where we are here, as hamas kill Palestinians who can object if Israel does as well?

There’s a difference between responding to rockets attacks and killing political opponents. We’ll be sure to condemn Kadima if they start killing members of Likud.

So basically the test you seem to apply is that people demonstrating against Israel’s actions need to have demonstrated about a number of other issues too?

I don’t know, bissli. Probably she didn’t realize the implication of the action -the consequences that would follow. She also might be nervous and people smile sometimes when they are nervous.

I have to go now.

anon, no doubt you support the murder of Fatah members in front of their families. You certainly seem unable to condemn it.

Did you guys not used to talk about moral relativism?

What you’re accusing me of is not relativism. You, know, like your dismissing anything the Jerusalem Post says without qualification.

Under Alec’s logic could I kill 900 people and claim that as it was not as bad as Uganda I was in the clear?

Complete and utter bollocks as you know deep down. I was not excusing any party here, rather responding specifically to TheWhiney’s complete moral lacunae over civilian and avoidable death where Israel ain’t involved.

Now, please tell me why I should continue to engage with an individual who skulks behind vapid posting-handles.

How can the moderators let this stinking troll Anon get away with this filth? Secateurs David?

An unhinged Jew-hater about one of the most reasonable, sensible and knowledgeable posters here:

Brett is, even by HP standards, a complete and utter joke. I’m surprised the others let him post his drivel.

Evidently, the medication isn’t working.

I thought they just saved the brave boys of the IDF a job

What an utter racist filth you are.

If only Hamas could start killing a thousand Pals a month then we would be looking at some serious savings!

If they started by killing themselves they’d be doing a great service to both Israel and the Palestinians. They are quite keen on martyrdom aren’t they?

what other choice did you have?

None. The Nazi war criminals of Hamas made sure that as many Arab kids as possible were killed, by launching rockets from residential areas.
Prison camp, eh? You’ll tell us next that it was worse than Treblinka.
You really are filth.

Anon, please do not refer to the Palestinians as “Pals”. Plus, you mean “in a month”, not “a month”.

“Really, and there was me thinking you were justifying slaughter?”

Is that better or worse than completely denying it? Why do you care so little for the victims of Hamas slaughter?

Anon, please do not refer to the Palestinians as “Pals”. Plus, you mean “in a month”, not “a month”.

I thought they just saved the brave boys of the IDF a job

What a disgraceful contempt for human life that represents.

Sorry about that. May I suggest we start ignoring this attention-seeking racist?

Alec – I didn’t assert it was the worst attrocity in the history of man. I asserted that it was the worst attrocity happening right now, having started on 27th Dec. That is highly relevant. As to a worse attrocity in the same period, no-one has told me of one. So, since you think I have been told, can you repeat it for me please.

Fabian – I’m not playing with words. There is a significant difference between damaging a few buildings, and destroying huge amounts of buildings and infrastructure, as has happened in Gaza. The qualitative and quantitative difference between the damage cause on both sides is completely obvious.

Now, what, Fabian and Alec, specifically have I “lied” about?

I was just thinking that a few more Pals killing pals would save the white phosphorus shells for Iran.

You appear to be suggesting that both Israel and commenters here think that exterminating people for its own sake is a good thing. That’s a bit of a sick accusation, isn’t it. You might want to apologise, then slink away ashamed and never come back.

“If only Hamas could start killing a thousand Pals a month then we would be looking at some serious savings!”

We do not use the racist term “Pals” on this website, anon.

A very senior member of the Israeli Defence Ministry said that the impact of the rockets was more psychological than physical. Obviously they can cause damage and sometimes death, …They certainly are not serious offensive military weapons.

Say what?

To start with, one of the effects of Israel’s military campaign was to prevent Hamas from using launch site were the ballistics and targeting of the missiles had been pre-calculated, thus erroding their targeting effectiveness (I think that is a good military objective).

Secondly, as an offensive weapon, the Hamas missiles create a war of attrition, in Israel, whereby Israel has to continually expend economic resources to protect its civilians. That relatively few Israelis have died as a result of these missiles is due to Israeli civil defence procedure, not the good intentions, or the inefficiency of Hamas. Given the opportunity, Hamas would rain missiles on all parts of Israel. destroying economic and civilian life there.

Now, I understand that Israel’s war in Gaza has destroyed civilian life their, brought about misery and death. I am sympathetic to the plight of the average Gazan, and sincerely support the drive for economic aid to the area. But it is also my belief that the misery that the Gazans face is largely one of Hamas’ making.

Re Anon: If the anecdote reported in the Guardian is true and complete, I hope that the soldiers who perpetrated the murder are quickly brought to justice and receive the appropriate penalty.

Sam: “They certainly are not serious offensive military weapons. I think Israel is designing some sort of defensive system against them anyway.”
They seriously killed people and the only reason more people were not seriously killed was that they have had to live severely curtailed lives over the past years under attack and even more severely curtailed lives in shelters over the past 3 weeks.
The new defence systems are some years away as I understand; in the meanwhile, those homemade gingerbread with a frilly doily on top rockets are fast being replaced by Chinese ones via Iran of higher lethality and further reach.

“Oh for goodness sake who are you trying to kid here. If the same people had been wiped out by an IAF cluster bomb you would have been singing in the shower about it.”

So, in order to show others are indifferent to Palestinian suffering, you show indifference for Palestinian suffering?

Blimey, you lot have really lost your way.

“We do not use the racist term “Pals” on this website, anon.”

Anon is gone.

DavidT,

As a non-Brit, not used to terms like Paki, and their racist conintations, I could not understand why Pals was seen as racist, rather than an abbreviation.

It wasn’t untill last week, in the aftermath of the furor of P. Harry’s calling a colleague a “Paki”, and the reporting there of that I became aware of the “meaning” behind the word.

i.e. Pals as a racist term might be specific to the UK ears. On the other hand, having read here that it is offensive, I have never used the term

Alec – I didn’t assert it was the worst attrocity in the history of man.

Yet it’s the only one you get animated about. Even when Lebanese forces were shelling Palestinian residential areas, you and your fellow smurfs did not show anything approaching the same outrage.

I asserted that it was the worst attrocity happening right now, having started on 27th Dec.

And that’s why I’m calling you a liar.

So, my assertion stands.

Keep clinging to that life jacket there mate, never mind the leaks…

I think the point the Irie, Benji and the other anti-Zionists miss is that whilst the death of babies is horrible, why is Israel being lined up squarely to blame here? Yes the IDF launched the munitions that killed many of them but who was it who launched the rockets from civilian neighbourhoods? Who was it that refuses to recognise Israel, nay, swears to destroy it? Who was it who used the conflict to drag politicial enemies into the streets and shot them? Who was it who has spent money on arms rather than build out civilian infrastructure?

If you Israel-haters always point the finger at Israel and use jargon like ‘baby-killers’, ‘Zionazis’, ‘New Warsaw Ghetto’ etc. then how can you not expect derserved accusations of anti-Semitism? Do you really have no idea how racist those terms are?

Joe, I think it’s truncating ethnic or national group names in general. How I laughed when Bush called the Pakistanis by a certain epithet.

Do you really have no idea how racist those terms are?

Sadly Greg, I am sure they do and the don’t really care.

TheIrie now prefers B’Tselem – this is the same B’Tselem who In a number of cases maintains that civilians were not participating in hostilities even though the circumstances surrounding the death are disputed or unclear. For example:

1) B’Tselem reported in 2007 that Muhammad Mahmoud Rajab a-Jarjawi, 19, killed Nov. 23 in Beit Lahiya, “Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while on his way home from prayers, which ended at five in the morning.” Yet the Palestinian Ma’an News Agency Web site (as supplied by BBC Worldwide Monitoring) reported that day: Our Gaza correspondent reported that an Israeli reconnaissance plane launched a rocket at a group of armed Palestinian resistance men who were confronting the invading Israeli tanks east of Bayt Lahiya. One of the men, Muhammad Jarjawi, 19, was killed and many others were injured.
Unfortunately AI and B’tselem have a clear anti-Israel agenda and because NGO-Monitor is Israeli does it mean it is incapable of telling truth or do you maintain that all Joos are liars as well as War Criminals?

The term ‘Irie’ is the Rastafarian name for ‘God’. Just saying like…. Actually, I’m surprised at the Irie’s attitude towards the cholera outbreak in Zimbabwe. I had gleaned from reading this site that he was some sort of water engineer, and cholera is a totally preventable water-bourne disease. you would think he would display more sorrow at the occurrance of this horrible disease.

Three people of no particular religion arrested in attack on synagogue
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE50I56C20090119

TheIrie: No doubt the following does not fit your wholly artificially imposed time frame and thus doesn’t count. I am angry at myself for stooping to what someone in another thread found himself doing: mining the data to come up with counterstatistics and having to avoid the grim satisfaction of proving you a liar perhaps at the expense of losing sight that it is people we are talking about. I have met some of these people, so try not to lose sight of them, while I soil my hands with this exercise.
And as for your acceptance of the Sudanese ambassador’s statement that
“our record is better than many of the countries criticising us”. That too is lying bullshit, as the following bears out. (Some quotes capitalised for your attention)

Eric Reeves
January 1, 2009

With dismaying predictability, the continuing catastrophe in Darfur commands less and less news attention, largely because it has settled into a grim “genocide by attrition,” defined not so much by MASSIVE ATROCITIES —ALTHOUGH THESE CONTINUE TO OCCUR —as by relentless, if undramatic, human suffering and destruction consequent upon the Khartoum regime’s deliberate exacerbating of insecurity confronting civilians and aid workers. Most of the region has only a tenuous and fitful humanitarian presence, and many distressed populations are completely beyond reach… Darfur’s visibility has diminished not only because the observational presence of humanitarian workers is much reduced (even as their fear of speaking out has increased), but because the Khartoum regime has imposed severe restrictions on journalists seeking access to Darfur.

As the conflict enters its seventh year, with no end in sight, the risk is that it will become PERCEIVED as a chronic problem rather than an ACUTE THREAT to the lives of millions of conflict-affected Darfuris. This number has now reached a staggering 4.7 million civilians according to the UN Office…Severe Acute Malnutrition (SAM), affecting primarily children under five, is approaching 3 percent, portending SIGNIFICANT MORTALITY…

But as massive and exigent as the Darfur catastrophe is, it cannot be isolated from the broader context of growing political and economic threats to Sudan as a whole; and these threats, receiving even scantier news coverage than Darfur, may soon materialize in the form of expanding violence and rebellion in Africa’s largest nation, posing a risk not only to Sudan but to regional stability as well.

Good point, Sue.

Israel reaps benefit of Hamas debacle – the gods reward
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129476

Sam

“So basically the test you apply is that people demonstrating against Israel’s military actions have to have demonstrated about a number of other issues too?”

If Israel, the sole Jewish State, is all they ever riot or care about, then they are applying different, very exacting standards to Israel that they apply to no other country (or situation or conflict) on the planet, however truly nasty. Why do you think that might be then?

Shorter TheIrie: “If you don’t let me treat this the worst attrocity in the history of man, bar none, I’ll scweam, I’ll scweam and I’ll scweam!!!”

Joe, I think it’s truncating ethnic or national group names in general.

Alec, whilst I have little love for the so-called “Palestinians” until they give up their insane genocidal madness, I’m not sure that’s such a useful rule of thumb: Canucks, Aussies for example are two perfectly acceptable examples of such usage (I’m not sure about the ancedents of this since there are no such places, to use my own backstory, called Hunland and Taigshire). There are many truncations of course whose usage is unacceptable due to the weight of historical attachments, e.g. what our highly beloved HRH said recently (and on that topic, just how stupid a pillock do you have to be to think being called “Sooty” by a knob like the Heir to the Throne is somehow acceptable?)

and because NGO-Monitor is Israeli does it mean it is incapable of telling truth or do you maintain that all Joos are liars as well as War Criminals?

Nachman, I believe TheIrie has repeated the Galloway/Livingstone Formulation in the past: “Its an Israeli website! Its an Israeli Website!”.

Sadly Greg, I am sure they do and the don’t really care

This is the thing that really annoys me about leftist politics here – the balls-to-the-wall hypocrisy.

Sure, the right can be just as hypocritical but the left makes such a big thing about being above hypocrisy, being so much more honest, about being for the people, about treating everybody equally and respecting everybody everywhere. About seeking out injustice, fighting for the little people, those without voices or opportunity. About being against conflict and war and suffering. All true unless the victims are Jews, it seems.

Are the left so stupid that they can’t look beyond the body-count to root causes? Can’t they see that their blind castigation of Israel is as likely to prolong this conflict as anything else? Can’t they see that their focus on this conflict, despite far worse things happening around the world all the time, can only be accounted for by bigotry?

ami – you completely missed my point regarding the Sudanese ambassador, which was that his statements sound exactly like Brett’s statements. If it isn’t clear what I think about Brett, I think he is an apologist for horrendous attrocities. It should, therefore, be clear to you what I think about the Sudanese ambassador. Perhaps you might try reading a little slower next time. However, my other point, which you might be implicitly challenging, is that the situation in Gaza was worse than the situation in Darfur in the period since Israel launched its massacres (a period of time you apparently feel has no relevance). That is, objectively, true I’m afraid.

However, my other point, which you might be implicitly challenging, is that the situation in Gaza was worse than the situation in Darfur in the period since Israel launched its massacres (a period of time you apparently feel has no relevance). That is, objectively, true I’m afraid.

Please just crawl off and die. In three weeks time, I doubt you’ll be mitigating Gaza as it’s been less serious than Darfur.

Then there’s the matter of the other cases of active conflict in your time-scale

Such as, Alec? What conflict was as distructive as the Gaza conflict, in the same period? You can call me names all day, but it just makes it look like you haven’t got an answer.

Are the left so stupid that they can’t look beyond the body-count to root causes? Greg

When I was young, in the early sixties, I was in the YCL and in spite of all the evidence about Stalin somehow chose to ignore it…in mitigation I had learned at an early age that one can hold absurd ideas in one’s head, thanks to religion in part and even Santa Claus.

The Irie,

Before I can answer your question, I need to know how you define “destructive”?

Also, I am unsure why time period is relevent. I know that it is important to you, but I would have thought that “capacity” for destruction and “intent” of destruction (i.e.motive) would have come into play.

Now in terms of Barbarism, I could point to any number of “special actions” during the Holocaust, or the death camps…

In terms of deaths in one day, I might speculate against the droping of the atom bomb.

How about the Genocide in Bosnia?

Jim
20 January 2009, 10:48 am

“North Northwester – and I’d say you’re doing the mirror image of the Jesuitical gits who trawl Jewish culture and religion to come up with spurious and often anti-semitic critiques of the Israeli state.
Like any conflict, there’s certain particulars of history and religion etc. that will influence the various actors or provide ideological underpinnings, but in the larger picture it’s still colonialism and imperialism that loom larger than any clash-of-civilisations stuff – political Islam comes out of them, not thee other way round.
In Sri Lanka we see Sinhalese nationalism doing bizarre things with Buddhism; if you want to know why you don’t need a crash course in the Abhidharma.”

Well, Jim, a courteous answer and pretty clear where you’re coming from. It doesn’t answer any of my points, but, hey! The joys of debate with adults in a democracy…

I’m not trawling Islam for anything spurious. Mohammed became a warlord and his Koranic and other words and deeds after migration from Mecca indicate him to have been consumed with hatred for the Other, as the psycho babble [or respected academic theory] has it.

Sura (5:51) – “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”

Ishaq 262 – “Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse”
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

There’s tons of this stuff in the Islamic trilogy, predates ‘imperialism’ by centuries, and it’s not paranoia when the bad people are really out to get you.

You get a different kind of belief system from a faith whose teachings include predictions that rocks will call out to the faithful to kill the Jew hiding behind it and which was set up by a warlord from one whose founder said ‘Blessed are the peacemakers.’

Not that a crazy, mixed-up species like ours can’t and didn’t use either faith to hang conquest and enslavement on: it’s just that one civilisation is still praising suicide bombers and head hackers and killers of homosexuals and disobedient girls just as its intolerant founder suggested, and the other eventually abolished slavery and later spent a fortune sinking slave ships and fighting plantation-owners and has just placed someone who looks like a slave’s descendant in the highest political office in the world.

People follow their beliefs and 1300 years of hatred for kuffars is going to have an effect on lots of folk.
And it’s not economics either: Ayatollah Khomeini said that they didn’t have the Iranian revolution to reduce the price of melons.

And if imperialism is bad enough to inspire and maybe justify such killing in ‘Palestine’, and if not being governed by local and ancient laws and customs is bad and worth of fighting against, well, where does that place the nationalism of long standing European populations when the Other settles unintegrated amongst them?

People of good faith can disagree very deeply on lots of things and still be for the same civilisation – that’s what this blog is about, but as a rule of thumb I’d say that if you’re with the anti-Semites, you’re on a wrong side.

Hamas are anti-Semitic to the core.

Now. When I see pictures from Darfur, there I see a starved population.

Somehow, in ’starving’ Gaza, everybody looks somewhat rotund.

However, the assumption is that in Darfur where Muslim is killing Muslin, there are a few hundred casualties a week. Both from fighting and starvation. And the conflict has been going on for at least 4 years yet, somehow, the press don’t seem to get there.

Hint. Reporters are KILLED.

Somebody speculated on CI(F) that one of Obama’s first acts will be to declare a no fly zone over Darfur for Sudanese government planes. Doesn’t seem a bad idea at all.

Of course, CI(F) didn’t seem to like it.

From todays Indy re: the IDF withdrawal

“For Mousa Samouni, 19, reticent and with every indication of still being in deep shock, the return was the culmination of a horrific experience that began at 7.30am on 4 January, when Israeli troops arrived at his home in the Zeitoun district of southern Gaza City under the cover of heavy fire as the offensive pushed west from the border towards the coast.

The accountancy student, in his first year at Al-Azhar University, said the troops had moved his family next door and then told both groups to join other members of the clan in a warehouse across the road, owned by the vegetable seller Wael Samouni. The troops then occupied the two houses.

He returned yesterday to find the houses ransacked and scarcely habitable, with furnishing and electrical appliances tossed out of the window, gaping holes in the wall made for firing positions, furniture smashed, clothes piled on the floor, pages of family Korans torn out and remains of soldiers’ rations littered in many rooms.

Stars of David and graffiti in Hebrew and English proclaiming “Arabs need 2 die”, “no Arabs in the State of Israel” and “One down and 999,999 to go” had been scrawled on walls. A drawing of a gravestone bore the inscription “Arabs 1948 to 2009″.”

Benji has finally and permanently joined the ranks of “Mano de dios” (or whatever), Flanker and HB as someone whose comments I simply skip over. Disgusting troll.

Anyway about Hamas, I hope the stoppers take this to heart and finally learn what they’ve forgotten, that they should never side with tyrannical regimes.

ami – you completely missed my point regarding the Sudanese ambassador

Is it that the Sudanese ambassador’s receptions are noted in society for their host’s exquisite taste that captivates his guests?

Have you forgotten how such attacks were celebrated in Gaza?

As was 9-11. Which is why the average Palestininan is not entirely innocent in applauding terrorism. Now their monster is out of control.

Anyway all this killing and oppression means that Hamas refuses to be weakened and allow others into political life in Gaza.

The Palestinians don’t need a cease-fire, they need liberation.

Oh and all you stoppers who laugh at liberation? Fuck off, just fuck off.

And the conflict has been going on for at least 4 years yet, somehow, the press don’t seem to get there.
7th year- see my comment above. and for press restrictions- see my comment above.

Hint. Reporters are KILLED.

re nofly zone: Eric Reeves, from whose latest report my long quote is taken, critiques this proposal. I am not a strategic expert, so can’t opine and that is for another discussion.
http://www.sudanreeves.org/Article231.html

From todays Indy

Then it’s likely the rest of the article is bullshit.

Glenn Hysen
20 January 2009, 3:35 pm

From todays Indy re: the IDF withdrawal
“The accountancy student, in his first year at Al-Azhar University, said the troops had moved his family next door and then told both groups to join other members of the clan in a warehouse across the road, owned by the vegetable seller Wael Samouni. The troops then occupied the two houses.”

You’re supposed to remove civilians from places troops occupy so the home side can shoot at the outsider troops without fear of hitting their own people; the opposite of what Hamas does, of course, but there’s always an excuse for Hamas to cower behind women and children, isn’t there?

“Stars of David and graffiti in Hebrew and English proclaiming “Arabs need 2 die”, “no Arabs in the State of Israel” and “One down and 999,999 to go” had been scrawled on walls. A drawing of a gravestone bore the inscription “Arabs 1948 to 2009″.”

Nasty, nasty soldiers. They may even be punished by their officers if they find out. Shouldn’t have done that, I agree, but then there’s rarely understanding for the Jews’ anger at shell-shocked, retarded kids growing up bed-wetters and nervous wrecks under daily rocket-fire is there?

And then the Israelis let this charmer go free in a prisoner swap:

“Samir Kuntar and several other militants were set free by Israel as part of a prisoner swap with the radical group.
Kuntar had been serving 542 years in jail. He led a boat raid from Lebanon on a northern Israeli seaside town in 1979.
His gang killed an Israeli soldier and then searched for hostages.
They entered the home of the Haran family and seized 28-year-old Danny Haran and his daughter Einat, aged four.
They took them to the beach and, according to witnesses, Kuntar shot Danny in front of his daughter as she begged him not to kill her father.
He then bludgeoned the head of the little girl repeatedly with his rifle butt until she was dead.”

Why didn’t the Israelis go the whole hog and just slaughter the gazan families instead of merely vandalising their home? Why didn’t they hang the Lebanese swine and be done with it?

Because Israel has the rule of law and its imperfect people are brought up with a sense of decency recognisable in the West.

Hamas is a death cult that ‘kills off’ its TV station animal presenters and blames ‘the Zionists.’

A sense of proportion here might help.
There’s nasty , and then there’s downright evil. You choose.

Josh;

They need to stop sympathising with terrorism. Then they need to scrub their territorial toilet clean of the extremist crap they’ve blessed themselves with.

I had gleaned from reading this site that he was some sort of water engineer, and cholera is a totally preventable water-bourne disease. you would think he would display more sorrow at the occurrance of this horrible disease

Ah, but would he be able to blame the Joos for it?

Just for the Iriot, from Gary Kasperov’s recent op-ed in the Wall Street Journal “Why Russia Stokes Mideast Mayhem:
Petrodictators have a permanent interest in instability” which is well worth the read.

“Israel has the capability to annihilate Gaza to secure the safety of its people, but it chooses not to do so because the Israelis value human life. Does anyone doubt for a moment what Hamas would do if it had the power to wipe out every one of the five-and-a-half million Jews in Israel? Hamas should not be considered less a villain simply because it does not as yet possess the means to fulfill its genocidal agenda.

Terror suspects such as the United Kingdom’s “liquid-bomb” plotters and the recently convicted group plotting to kill U.S. soldiers at the Fort Dix military base were arrested before they were able to carry out their lethal plans. Those who call Israel’s assault on Gaza disproportionate should write down on a piece of paper exactly how many Israelis should die before the Israeli Defense Forces respond.”

This might count as an first Israeli “Kill” after a “pause” in violence.

IAF strike Kassam launchers in gaza

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292915656&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

My last comment was directed to Benjamin and his statistics

wow, those poor Gazans must be cursed.

battered by the Israelis and still being ruled by those nasty little Hamas fuckers. Let’s hope after another ‘glorious victory’ or two the man/woman in the street decides they’re better off without Hamas.

I can’t tell if you’re being genuinely thick or playing one of your sick games, TheIrie, so I’ll relent. Your criteria – military action since 27 December – were clearly designed to single out Israel, but were wholly ignorant/unconcerned of/by Darfur, Sri Lanka or Coatsey’s link to church-burning.

When challenged over these and Zim, you proceeded to demonstrate just how far you’ll go to dismiss non-Israeli misdeeds.

Now, before you spit on any more graves, fuck off like a good little liar and Denier.

Good posts, North Northwester.

“Your criteria – military action since 27 December – were clearly designed to single out Israel” Of course. I’m not pretending otherwise. We are talking about the war in Gaza you knuckle dragging cretin. My point is that while this war lasted it was probably the worst attrocity in the world at that time, and at the same time you and your ilk keep insisting we look at other tragedies and don’t talk about Israel, unless we are anti-Semites. I spit on no-one’s grave. The situations in Zimbabwe (about which HP has posted 1 article, by a guest poster) and Thailand and Sudan and elsewhere are all attrocious, and get my attention. The situation in Gaza is also attrocious. This has been extensively commented on here at HP, nearly always to deny Israeli responsibility for Israeli crimes, and to sweep deaths and suffering under the carpet. So I’ll take no lectures from you, Alec – moral vacuum – MacPointless.

“The situations in Zimbabwe (about which HP has posted 1 article, by a guest poster”

Well, I remember writing two or three myself, so that isn’t true.

The general point seems to be that the people arguing against Israel are antisemites because they are preoccupied with Israel even though more people are dying elsewhere.

But by exactly the same criterion, David T must be regarded as an anti-Muslim racist, since the vast majority of his articles have been critical of Muslim individuals and groups, even when far worse wrongs were being committed elsewhere by non-Muslims. Take his article of about two weeks ago, ‘In Senegal‘, concerning nine gay men who had been imprisoned in the west African state. This cannot compare with the deaths in Zimbabwe, or with numerous other injustices that were being inflicted elsewhere in the world. David T selected it solely because it is a Muslim country.

Hence, David T must be accounted an anti-Muslim racist, and, moreover, one of those who are attempting to create a negative perception of Muslims by focusing almost exclusively on their wrongdoing.

“By The Same Token”, you get the difference between a blog with several amateur writers with varied areas of interest and expertise, and an actual political movement, right?

Fair enough

I think that there’s a presumption that somebody who goes on about Israel or Muslims all the time is a racist.

You have then to decide whether, in fact, they are.

Which you can do by actually reading what they have to say.

I make a very special point, incidentally, of not “going on about Muslims”.

If you look at my posts, you’ll see that I focus on a handful of political parties: Jamaat-e-Islami, Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood, Al Muhajiroun and Hizb ut Tahrir. I also talk about the nutters at MPACuk who are pretty unaligned.

It gives me huge pleasure that Jamaat was given a drubbing by the Bangladeshi electorate.

I spend quite a bit of time arguing against an essentialist approach to Islam, or any other religion: and condemning those who are anti-Muslim bigots.

I also accept that it is possible for somebody to be against all nationalisms, and therefore to believe that Jews in Israel shouldn’t self-determine, without being a racist. Our commenter, Red Deathy believes this, for example.

Of course. I’m not pretending otherwise.

Good. You have now admitted that far from being an irenic defender of humanity, you are a monomaniacal nutter who CANNOT EVEN CONCEDE THAT WORSE SUFFERING IS OCCURRING ELSEWHERE. Not that one can concentrate on only one event at a time, but that no matter what, Israeli misdeeds trump all.

That is why you are a liar and a Denier. I bet you thought you were saying something else.

We are talking about the war in Gaza you knuckle dragging cretin.

Which you then widened to the whole world by claiming Operation Cast Lead was the singular worst humanitarian issue between 27 December and now. This is false. You are one of those raving loonies on street corners who loose arguments with themselves, ain’t you?

For you, of all people, who regularly and persistently diverts threads down the path to Israel to now start bleating about propriety really is the pits.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/11/anti-muslim-bigotry/

We are talking about the war in Gaza you knuckle dragging cretin.

What was I thinking of? No we weren’t. We were discussing Hamas’ political violence against dissenting Palestinians, and you diverted it down the path to Israel.

Jim – “Read the Yongzheng emperors polemics with a pro-Ming scholar in Spence’s “Treason By the Book” then get back to me.”

Sorry but what does a discussion over whether or not the Qing were right to overthrow the Ming amount to a Confucian justification og Imperialism?

Have you read the book?

But by exactly the same criterion, David T must be regarded as an anti-Muslim racist

Newsflash: Islam is not a race or ethnicity or nation etc.

I also accept that it is possible for somebody to be against all nationalisms, and therefore to believe that Jews in Israel shouldn’t self-determine, without being a racist

Ah, but does this person rant equally about Arab self-determination? Or Japanese? What about Polish? Does RD? If not, then he is still an antisemite.

I guess the principle for someone like TheIrie is: if someone dies and the IDF didn’t do it, then it didn’t happen.

Brett,

That is a feeble response, I’m afraid. In the above thread, you are referring to individuals such as the Irie as antisemites. You say “You, and others, are antisemites because of all the conflicts in the world, this one offends you the most”.

In my opinion, the vast majority of those who protest do so, not because Israelis are Jewish, but because Israel is an advanced democratic state with a similar moral code to our own, and we are naturally more appalled by injustices in societies similar to their own than those which occur in other types of state. This explains why there was a strong anti-apartheid movement, which also included an academic boycott, against South Africa, even though other places in the world were far more unjust. Similarly, there were efforts to boycott Israel because of its discriminatory policies even before the Gaza conflict, despite other places being more unjust.

Such attitudes towards Israel are no more anti-Semitic than the attitudes toward South Africa were anti-Protestant. It might be unfair, but if it is, it is unfair to all modern states, not just Israel. Moreover, if the South Africans were at present involved in a Gaza-like war, there would be a similar response; and the same point would hold if Israel were currently a British territory populated by British citizens involved in such a conflict.

Would you say the anti-Apartheid movement was anti-Protestant? And did you, Gene, or David T support the anti-Apartheid movement or take part in any of its activities?

Such attitudes towards Israel are no more anti-Semitic than the attitudes toward South Africa were anti-Protestant.

Indeed they can be. If you were to say that they need not be, that’s fine. But to deny even the possibility of their existence, your mind is snapping shut and to be considered incapable of recognizing it unless accompanied by jack-boots and buzz-cuts (and even then as seen in Calgary).

Now, why do you keep changing your name?

“In my opinion, the vast majority of those who protest do so, not because Israelis are Jewish, but because Israel is an advanced democratic state with a similar moral code to our own, and we are naturally more appalled by injustices in societies similar to their own than those which occur in other types of state.”

Indeed some idiots do think like that and it is an absurd and evil idea which means far worse conflicts elsewhere in the world are largely ignored by so-called “Leftists” and “Liberals”.

Are you (whoever you are) one of these dangerous idiots or do you actually have a developed conscience ?

we are naturally more appalled by injustices in societies similar to their own than those which occur in other types of state

What a neat way to justify racism.

Such attitudes towards Israel are no more anti-Semitic than the attitudes toward South Africa were anti-Protestant.

You are saying that Judaism is a religion, full stop. That is nonsense. It is also an ethnicity, a nation. In that sense, antisemitism is racism. And the hatred that focuses on Israel is racist.

“In my opinion, the vast majority of those who protest do so, not because Israelis are Jewish, but because Israel is an advanced democratic state with a similar moral code to our own, and we are naturally more appalled by injustices in societies similar to their own than those which occur in other types of state. This explains why there was a strong anti-apartheid movement, which also included an academic boycott, against South Africa, even though other places in the world were far more unjust.”

Fair enough. That’s the same argument people make about America and the death penalty when the compare the execution of a tripple murderer who has had due process and years of appeal to the summary execution of a political dissedent or an unchaste woman elsewhere.

With regard to South Africa, the terrain was rather different. The ANC weren’t calling for the destruction of the South African State or the anahilation of of the Afrikaaner nation. But more to the point, the rhetoric used against the Afrikaaners did not extend to calling them Nazis intent on unleashing a Holocaust! And even if it had, it would not have been as enormous as accusing the Jews of doing the same thing!

For fuck’s sake, people are shrieking GENOCIDE in Palestine, while real genocides are going on all over the world. The casualities in this recent Gaza war were fewer than 0.1% of the population, and comparisonons were made to Auchwitz!

All across Africa, millions of displaced people live in makeshift shelters of plastic bags and cardboard, with nothing to eat. Yet in Gaza we see modern towns with high-rise buildings, schools and shopping centres referred to as “refugee camps” and we’re told they’re starving, when theyre is evidently the same obesity problem you might find in any town in England. So while hundreds of thousands of people in Africa face war, famine and devastation, some eating mud to fill their stomachs, disingenuous idiots like TheIrie come here and claim that Palestine is the worst humanitarian situation in the world!

It is no use applying pressure on Israel because it cannot give Hamas what Hamas demands.

In my opinion, the vast majority of those who protest do so, not because Israelis are Jewish, but because Israel is an advanced democratic state with a similar moral code to our own, and we are naturally more appalled by injustices in societies similar to their own than those which occur in other types of state.

Can’t expect civilized behaviour from those fuzzy-wuzzies, what what!

I guess the principle for someone like TheIrie is: if someone dies and the IDF didn’t do it, then it didn’t happen.

Let’s be reasonable and cut him some slack here, shall we? How about ‘if someone dies and a Jew didn’t do it, then it didn’t happen’?

The ANC weren’t calling for the destruction of the South African State or the anahilation of of the Afrikaaner nation.

But the PAC were – “one settler, one bullet”.

Can’t expect civilized behaviour from those fuzzy-wuzzies, what what!

What a strange strange thing paternalistic racism is.

In my opinion, the vast majority of those who protest do so, not because Israelis are Jewish, but because Israel is an advanced democratic state with a similar moral code to our own, and we are naturally more appalled by injustices in societies similar to their own than those which occur in other types of state.

The B.N.P. with humanity injected. Why do you hate Ugandans and Sri Lankans and Zimbabweans and Palestinians in Lebanon so much that you’d abandon them to mass-killing as long as it wasn’t by Westerners?

What a strange strange thing paternalistic racism is.

Indeed, Josh. These people are often shocked when they visit the so-called Third World to find that people there are just the same as they are, and often better educated in many ways. For example, they often know a damn sight more about the Western country of the visitor than the Westerner does of the country being visited.

On the other hand I did make friends with an Egyptian who had only ever come across mushrooms of the magic variety and refused to believe that there were edible ones you could buy in supermarkets :)

Hamas should not be considered less a villain simply because it does not as yet possess the means to fulfill its genocidal agenda.

This is absurd. In any situation, whether it be the conduct of nations or the conduct of individuals, you have to judge on action and capability; that is how you judge villains – by the acts they commit. Anything else simply has no place in any justice system.

One can say that Hamas says or believes terrible things – but that is not a crime, and even if it is, in narrow circumstances, it is one of far less magnitude than an other actions; crimes are its actions, and of course Hamas has done some bad things. However when folk point out its limitations in the field of action, people then talk about intent and hypotheticals – but no, that does not make it villainous per se, that is absurd. You can’t convict a man of burglary just because you think he intends to commit burglary.

Moreover, as far as unpleasant supremacism and racism goes, we should not forget that Hamas, in its words, does not have monopoly on that; there are numerous politicians in Israel that have expressed openly racist views towards Arabs. Not of the same intensity – but these politicians, and military, have greater power and capability. Moreover Israel is clearly capable – and does – commit crimes against Arabs, and does so, day in, day out.

Their attitude “we can’t expect any morality from backwards savages, but we’ll protect them from the consequences of their own actions” is a polar opposite from the attitude of someone who believes in the universality of liberty and wishes to see mankind progress – and wishes to protect the progress that has been made so far.

Someone tell these morons that if a bumper sticker reading “I hate wogs” marks the owner as a disgusting racist then “Hug a murderous wog today, he can’t help it” is not better.

and we’re told they’re starving, when theyre is evidently the same obesity problem you might find in any town in England

So you doubt the poverty statistics, and the economic statistics?
There are a whole range of indicators that suggest Gazans are having a very hard time, whomever you blame for that. There are numerous reports from various agencies. Do you doubt all those indicators and reports?

“In my opinion, the vast majority of those who protest do so, not because Israelis are Jewish, but because Israel is an advanced democratic state with a similar moral code to our own”

As an Israeli I think you are talking absolute bullshit. The first thing those protesters do is calling us Nazis. You get all obsessed about us because WE ARE JEWS. Don’t try to sell me that “I am doing it because I am your friend”. You are not my friend. You are a creep. Get a fucking life.

A thread to discuss Hamas’s murder and torture of political opponents, and what happens – people insist on discussing Israel’s shortcomings – again, and again. Everything must be about Israel. Nothing else, no other aspect of the ME situation can be discussed. Only Israel. Again. Again. Again.

Aaron Sacks, you’re a complete moron. The more we support Hamas today when they don’t have the capability to actually commit genocide, the more we help them spread genocidal hatred, and help them eventually commit horrible crimes, genocidal or otherwise.

You know, neonazi groups and the kkk in the United States have far less power to oppress, kill or commit crimes than Hamas does. In fact, on a daily basis they oppress and kill far fewer people… Does that mean that you would find it acceptable to send these groups money or express support in other ways?

“So you doubt the poverty statistics, and the economic statistics?”

A hard time? A HARD TIME? Have you seen real poverty? Not “a diet with too heavy in carbohydrate” – which is what the statistics actually said! People who try to compare this with people boiling bark off trees make me fucking sick!

Nearly Oxfordian, Sea Kitten, Josh Scholar, Alec Macpherson,

I drew attention to the objective empirical fact that people in the west are naturally more condemnatory towards societies like their own than they are to others. I do not endorse the attitude, I did not justify it, I do not hate ‘Ugandans and Sri Lankans and Zimbabweans and Palestinians in Lebanon’, and I did not go to any lengths at all to show that it was unfair because my aim was to show that protests against Israel are by no means necessarily anti-Semitic, as Brett had suggested.

In any case, I will take the fact that you didn’t dispute the point as proof that you agree with me.

Josh

I do not appreciate being personally abused for making a perfectly reasonable and fair point. Kasparov’s logic was very faulty. I am very much against Hamas, because like you I am concerned about its ideology. However, whatever your views of Hamas, it does not excuse poor reasoning.

Hamas has done some bad things

Oh crikey, another apologist for genocidal gangsters.

However when folk point out its limitations in the field of action, people then talk about intent and hypotheticals – but no, that does not make it villainous per se, that is absurd. You can’t convict a man of burglary just because you think he intends to commit burglary.

Nonsense. Of course you can. When the police apprehend someone sitting in a car for hours and hours in the middle of the night outside a house whose owners are away, and they find in the car all the tools of a burglar plus a wiring diagram of that house’s security system, and that person has been to prison 12 times for burglary, such a person can and often is quite properly convicted of attempted burglary.

Which part of the Hamas charter do you find too difficult to read and understand?

“I drew attention to the objective empirical fact that people in the west are naturally more condemnatory towards societies like their own than they are to others”
This is false regarding Israel. People who are obsessed about us do not consider us “like them”, but somehow a society where rabbis rule and the main law is “an eye for an eye”.

“In any case, I will take the fact that you didn’t dispute the point as proof that you agree with me.”
I did dispute it. It is false. People with no knowledge at all of Israel speak about our genocidal aims, about Zionism = racism and about us as Nazis. People who haven’t ever seen a Jew, like in Spain, do so too. I would say more: people who don’t have a fucking clue about how Israel is, are the ones more obsessed with us.

It is a sickness and its name is antisemitism.

By the Same Token, that you continue to refer to me by my full name does sort of suggest you’re a regular here who completely and utterly lacks any honesty and cannot find a regular name to stick with.

Why should you be humoured?

In any case, I will take the fact that you didn’t dispute the point as proof that you agree with me.

Do take the pills, dear boy. We did dispute it, but maybe you didn’t understand what we wrote. We condemned your racism. We didn’t dispute the fact that there are racists in the world. So?

Brett

I suppose if you compare Gazan poverty with the worst in Africa, then you can make that sort of comment. However, that does not mean there is no poverty, shortages, etc. I am not allocating blame here. I am just trying to establish whether you doubt the statistics.

like you I am concerned about its ideology

And I am concerned about its actual, physical attempts to murder Israeli civilians within a 50-mile radius, a radius it is constantly seeking to expand.
Loons like you have a nerve to complain about ‘poor reasoning’ from others.

Would you say the anti-Apartheid movement was anti-Protestant? No, but it quite appropriately attacked the theology of the Dutch Reformed church NGK which at the time gave justifications for apartheid. And pointing this out was not regarded as Calvinistophobe.

Aaron Sacks, you are a complete moron.

Your comment of 20 January 2009, 7:57 pm is inane and insane.

I’m perfectly happy to consider only “intent” when I judge political parties, regimes and fascist organizations. You either help them spread hatred and oppression or you don’t. Whether they have the capability yet is immaterial to whether they should be resisted or or supported.

Hamas should not be considered less a villain simply because it does not as yet possess the means to fulfill its genocidal agenda.

OP, I do not doubt its intent. But in the above, there is clearly poor reasoning. You responded to my point about burglary by proving my point (just to be pedantic: in the scenario you outline it is probably unlikely that the person will be convicted of attempted burglary, but that is beside the point).

Kasparov is suggesting that Hamas should not be considered less a villain. If by villain he means actual criminality, this is absurd, if he basing it on a lack of capability and a bad intent.

I am in total agreement with you about the intents of Hamas. However, actual villainy or criminality cannot be based on intent alone. You have to add means and opportunity too.

For example: the Israelis took measures to protect themselves from suicide bombing. Hamas may have the intent to carry on with these attacks, and perhaps the means, but the opportunity is severely restricted. Therefore its actual crimes in this area are reduced.

I’m perfectly happy to consider only “intent” when I judge political parties, regimes and fascist organizations.

So am I. But I was referring to the reasoning in the following, related to villainy:

Hamas should not be considered less a villain simply because it does not as yet possess the means to fulfill its genocidal agenda.

This really does have poor logic, related to villain, in the sense of criminality. Clearly if means and opportunity are restricted, criminality can be reduced, irrespective of intent.

“However, that does not mean there is no poverty, shortages, etc. “

I didn’t say that. I disputed it was a humanitarian catastrophe of such proportions that it should obscure all other issues.

Aaron Sacks. If you insist on a private law legal analogy, then you have forgotten the crime of conspiracy. If Hamas were a gang (hold on..) they would be convicted of conspiracy, which is a very serious offence. On the contested precedent of Nuremberg, it could arguably be used in international law.

“This really does have poor logic, related to villain, in the sense of criminality. Clearly if means and opportunity are restricted, criminality can be reduced, irrespective of intent.”

So are you saying that if a serial killer is imprisoned, he is no longer a villan?

So your comment of “20 January 2009, 7:57 pm” is a quote by someone else?

Haven’t you heard of quotation marks?

my aim was to show that protests against Israel are by no means necessarily anti-Semitic, as Brett had suggested.

That is not what you said. You said “Such attitudes towards Israel are no more anti-Semitic than the attitudes toward South Africa were anti-Protestant”. Not only are you now changing the terms of your position, you are also, to be honest, being wilfully ignorant of the historical existence of antisemitism.

In any case, I will take the fact that you didn’t dispute the point as proof that you agree with me.

And I’ll take this, with a lot more justification, that you’re a Pooterish, sub-Leninist nobo… oh, okay… middle-class twit. I did dispute your reasoning, you numpty.

I don’t think conspiracy is relevant here. The intent and motivation is based on the Covenant etc, and ideology, and then it needs means and opportunity. I just don’t like sloppy argument, even if I agree with its general gist.

I don’t think conspiracy is relevant here…I just don’t like sloppy argument

Then you shouldn’t post sloppy arguments.
You don’t think conspiracy is relevant here? Why? Because it pulls the rug from underneath your absurd reasoning (to strach a term)?
You are the one who brought up villainy and criminality *). When the villainy and criminality of conspiracy to commit murder are mentioned, suddenly it’s ‘irrelevant’. You would be laughed out of a moderately intelligent fifth-form debating society.

*) which you don’t understand. You don’t get to define these terms. Hamas has murdered plenty of people, and is boasting of its intention to murder more (indeed, it is murdering Arabs right now, its capacity to murder Jews having been constrained). Publicly declared intent to commit mass murder, together with running amok in the street and taking potshots in all directions in the hope of hitting someone, will get you banged up in the UK as a convicted criminal.

If indeed Fatah did assist the Israeli slaughter in Gaza by providing information on Hamas targets as has been suggested, it would not really be any surprise if there were reprisals.

Given that a third of the casualties were children I also do not think that the description of the so called IDF as “babykillers” is inappropriate. Indeed as Donald Macintyre reported in the Independent today on homes ransacked, pages of family Korans torn out and scrawled on walls such messages as “Arabs need 2 die”"No Arabs in the State of Israel”"One down 999,999 to go” and the drawing of a gravestone with the inscription “Arabs 1948 to 2009″.

Further evidence that the IDF are racists with genocidal fantasies as well.

Given that a third of the casualties were children I also do not think that the description of the so called IDF as “babykillers” is inappropriate. Indeed as Donald Macintyre reported in the Independent today on homes ransacked, pages of family Korans torn out and scrawled on walls such messages as “Arabs need 2 die””No Arabs in the State of Israel””One down 999,999 to go” and the drawing of a gravestone with the inscription “Arabs 1948 to 2009″.

Because of some graffiti and a few defaced Korans, you think it is legitimate to describe the IDF as “baby-killers”?

Are you sure?

If indeed Fatah did assist the Israeli slaughter in Gaza by providing information on Hamas targets as has been suggested, it would not really be any surprise if there were reprisals.

This is as distasteful as anything which has come before in the thread, to see wide-eyed Anglos denouncing those Palestinians who don’t take a sufficiently robust stance against Israel as ‘un-Palestinian’. From the security of their Western societies more and more blood-letting is goaded on. To the last Palestinian tear and drop of Palestinian blood, eh?

What were the reasons for the similar defenestrations (literally) two years ago? I’m sure we’ll hear one, and that it won’t attach any moral agency to the culprits. That said, we won’t hear any justifiation for Fat’h turning on Hamas, such as the killing of their colleagues or Hamas’ having previously been the greater killer of Palestinians within Israel or the Gaza and the West Bank.

Where is the servant with the fan? I need to take some tiffin! I believe this attitude is discussed here.

Given that a third of the casualties were children I also do not think that the description of the so called IDF as “babykillers” is inappropriate.

Give it a rest. Children die disproportionately in any urban-conflict scene, and unless you can reveal any mainstream source which describes the Janjaweed or L.R.A. or Sri Lankan military (or L.T.T.E. for that matter) or even Hamas in similar terms, it will remain as if this emotive term is reserved for the I.D.F.

Why I’m not sure, but it ain’t rational.

The idea that Apartheid-era South Africa faced boycotts and sanctions because “they were like us” is nonsense. They weren’t like us — they had created the only system in the world where one race lorded it over the others constitutionally.

Similarly, to use Serbia/Kosovo war as an analogy for Israel/Leb/Gaza is flawed because many (though not all) of the rabid anti-Israelis are also anti-American (and America led the NATO coalition that killed 700 in Belgrade in the Kosovo war).

So it seems to me there can be three reasons for obsessive anti-israel ranting a la benjamin, the irie, “buster,” pathetic penny pemberton, et al.

1, Genuine concern for the oppressed in this world. This can’t be Benji’s motivation, since he spends all his time on THIS particular blog.

2, anti-western, antii-capitalist, anti-Americanism. Those in this category should have protested Kosovo as loudly as they do Gaza. If they don’t they fall into category number 3:

3, weird obsession with Israel/Jews etc. Is it anti-semitism? in some cases yes, others probably no, but it is strange and weird, and singles out one people, excluding all the others. The level of passion against Israel certainlysurpasses anything heard in the old anti-apartheid struggle, and I recall anyone going around saying “we are all PAC now” (the Pan African Congress’s slogan was “one settler one bullet”).

Has Benji been quietly removed on a permanent basis, or is it just this thread?

I think this explains the situation well:

“The supply of volunteers is always expected to fully equal the demand,” replied Dr. Leete. “It is the business of the administration to see that this is the case. The rate of volunteering for each trade is closely watched. If there be a noticeably greater excess of volunteers over men needed in any trade, it is inferred that the trade offers greater attractions than others. On the other hand, if the number of volunteers for a trade tends to drop below the demand, it is inferred that it is thought more arduous. It is the business of the administration to seek constantly to equalize the attractions of the trades, so far as the conditions of labor in them are concerned, so that all trades shall be equally attractive to persons having natural tastes for them. This is done by making the hours of labor in different trades to differ according to their arduousness. The lighter trades, prosecuted under the most agreeable circumstances, have in this way the longest hours, while an arduous trade, such as mining, has very short hours. There is no theory, no a priori rule, by which the respective attractiveness of industries is determined. The administration, in taking burdens off one class of workers and adding them to other classes, simply follows the fluctuations of opinion among the workers themselves as indicated by the rate of volunteering. The principle is that no man’s work ought to be, on the whole, harder for him than any other man’s for him, the workers themselves to be the judges. There are no limits to the application of this rule. If any particular occupation is in itself so arduous or so oppressive that, in order to induce volunteers, the day’s work in it had to be reduced to ten minutes, it would be done. If, even then, no man was willing to do it, it would remain undone. But of course, in point of fact, a moderate reduction in the hours of labor, or addition of other privileges, suffices to secure all needed volunteers for any occupation necessary to men. If, indeed, the unavoidable difficulties and dangers of such a necessary pursuit were so great that no inducement of compensating advantages would overcome men’s repugnance to it, the administration would only need to take it out of the common order of occupations by declaring it `extra hazardous,’ and those who pursued it especially worthy of the national gratitude, to be overrun with volunteers. Our young men are very greedy of honor, and do not let slip such opportunities. Of course you will see that dependence on the purely voluntary choice of avocations involves the abolition in all of anything like unhygienic conditions or special peril to life and limb. Health and safety are conditions common to all industries. The nation does not maim and slaughter its workmen by thousands, as did the private capitalists and corporations of your day.”