Harry's Place

I’ve actually put in a formal complaint to the organisers, as unlike any of the other European guests I never received my “Israel must be wiped out” baseball cap. My suspicion is that one of my neighbours at dinner stole it… that would be either Jill Bailey from the Muswell Hill and Crouch End Antique Dealers’ Revolutionary Collective, or His Eminence the Imam Khalid Ibn al Huwaniyya (May Soothing Unguents Be Poured Upon His Fabourite Person’s Torso).

There was a “Starbucks = Shaitan” key-ring in my gift pack, but it’s hardly the same thing is it.

habibi’s point is accurate. The StWC is not about stopping war, it is is about starting one. One against American imperialism and the existence of Israel.

The unilateral ceasefire proves that, with all its destructive capacity, Israel could not achieve its goals on the battlefield. They are now seeking the help of the United States to achieve those goals politically. But we consider occupation to be an act of war. When injustice is law, resistance is duty. And the only answer to occupation is resistance and liberation.

Absolutely agree. It’s is clear from statements not by Hez or Hamas, but from the Israelis themselves, that the Palestinian people are targets. It’s naive to assume that, under such circumstances, there will be no resistance.

As for Iran, one should remember a statement by Pik Botha, previously foreign minister in the National Party government of South Africa. In arguing against apartheid, he said the “stench of apartheid” was attracting communism. Israel’s continued, daily and routine breaking of international law, the occupation, and the killing of Palestinians (on a much larger scale than anything inflicted by Hamas or Hez), are all attracting Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia (funds Hamas), and others, to fight around the Palestinian cause.

But it will take a long time for Israel to learn. Militaristic, increasingly paranoid of the barbarians at the gate (or “worms”, “monkeys” or “cockroaches”, as some Israelis have called Arabs), its population fed propaganda by politicians dedicated to the military and security industries, its falling into cycle of brutalisation: bloodletting and destruction are increasingly accepted as a norm.

Militaristic, increasingly paranoid of the barbarians at the gate (or “worms”, “monkeys” or “cockroaches”, as some Israelis have called Arabs),…

Damn, benj. Are you a sleazy little shit, or what?

Mesquito

I accept your personal abuse with good race, and I turn the other cheek, kind sir.

Well said, Habibi – the final paragraph is an accurate analysis of the situation. I hope the security services are keeping a vigillant eye on these people. They are a threat to all those in the world who strive for peace and calm.

Here is an interesting fact American’s views of Israel:

“Americans Sympathetic Toward Israel on Gaza in Poll”

By Viola Gienger

“Jan. 24 (Bloomberg) — A majority of Americans sympathized more with the Israelis than the Palestinians during the recent war in the Gaza Strip, according to a CNN opinion poll that points to a divergence from European views of the conflict.

Sixty percent of Americans in the nationwide survey said they were sympathetic toward the Israelis, compared with 17 percent who supported the Palestinians, CNN reported today on its Web site. A recent European poll showed that 23 percent of French people said the Palestinian Hamas group was primarily responsible for the war while 18 percent mainly blamed Israel….”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a2oCpwqqFTpw&refer=home#

Now, here is the French poll:

“QUESTION : Vous savez qu’un conflit oppose actuellement l’armée israélienne au Hamas dans la bande de Gaza. Selon vous qui du gouvernement israélien ou du Hamas en porte la principale responsabilité?”

http://www.csa.eu/dataset/data2009/opi20090108-les-francais-et-le-conflit-dans-la-bande-de-gaza.htm

What’s interesting about the French poll is that conservatives by 29 to 15 percent prefer Hamas to Israel in France. Even among the “moderates” the preference is for Hamas by 31 to 20 percent.

Among the gauchistes the each side was blamed equally 24 to 24 percent.

I would have thought that conservatives would be on the side of Israel as the far left especially in Europe has been vociferously anti-Israel.

Benjamin has lost it. Last night he posted fake video of Jews dancing to the sound of dropping bombs, today it’s this crap:

“But it will take a long time for Israel to learn. Militaristic, increasingly paranoid of the barbarians at the gate (or “worms”, “monkeys” or “cockroaches”, as some Israelis have called Arabs), its population fed propaganda by politicians dedicated to the military and security industries, its falling into cycle of brutalisation: bloodletting and destruction are increasingly accepted as a norm.” Benjamin

You are a creep, Benjamin, and with every post your Jew hatred increases.

By next week you will be standing next to Hizboallah crazies screaming that all “zionists should be extermianted.”

It’s getting harder and harder to take anything you say seriously.

Benjamin, don’t you mean “sons of pigs and monkeys” or “they are our dogs”?…..Oh, you said the Israeli’s said it. Never mind.

This descent by Benjamin to sub Flanker levels is disconcerting- like the mask finally slipping.

It’s obvious why Jewish posters (those who do) would spend their time posting their support of Israel. However, why would non Jews like Benjamin spend most of their waking hours posting attacks on Israel, most of them based on scurrilous untruths?

So we now have the Socialist Workers Party participating in a conference organized by the antisemitic, fascistic Hezbollah. I wonder if that’s how they saluted their international guests.

I expect Michael Rosen will be along shortly to explain it away.

And I agree, Benjamin’s comments on Israel/Palestine have gone from merely ignorant to downright disturbing.

Benjamin, don’t you mean “sons of pigs and monkeys” or “they are our dogs”?…..Oh, you said the Israeli’s said it. Never mind.

You lot always take “they are our dogs” the wrong way – wilfully, I sometimes suspect. It’s clearly a warm, generous sentiment – our dogs, not other people’s like the Kurds, or stray ones like the gypsies.

There was a fascinating talk on this very subject, as it happens, at the recent IFROISAP meeting in Beirut mentioned above, given by Dr. Nazir Kalib (Nathan Weinbaum) of Jews For Global Decolonisation With Jelly and Marrow. At the end of the talk he donned a pair of floppy ears, tail and tongue extension, and curled up ceremonially at the feet of his reverence, the Emir Sheik Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, whose delightful daughter Zafiah fed him almond macaroons throughout the subsequent fascinating lecture on the Legacy of the Crusades in the Design of Clock Radios, by Leo Thwart of the Exeter and Teignmouth Traditional Saddlemakers’ Jihadi Caucus (ETTSJC).

If the amount of wagging going on is any guide, the macaroons were excellent!

Khomeini’s revolution was enthusiastically helped by much of Iran’s left. Does anyone here remember what happened to leftists in general in Iran after 1979?

Wherever Islamists are successful, the members of the local SWP and many other will meet the same fate… Or am I being too optimistic?

There have been many places where Jews were the first (or among the first) to be persecuted and massacred. I don’t know of many places (if any) where they were also the last or only ones.

Every time Israel seeks to defend its civilians against terrorist attacks, it is accused of war crimes by various United Nations agencies, hard left academics and some in the media. It is a totally phony charge concocted as part of Hamas’ strategy—supported by many on the hard left—to delegitimate and demonize the Jewish state. Israel is the only democracy in the world ever accused of war crimes when it fights a defensive war to protect its civilians. This is remarkable, especially in light of the fact that Israel has killed far fewer civilians than any other country in the world that has faced comparable threats. In the most recent war in Gaza fewer than a thousand civilians—even by Hamas’ skewed count—have been killed. This, despite the fact that no one can now deny that Hamas had employed a deliberate policy of using children, schools, mosques, apartment buildings and other civilian areas as shields from behind which to launch its deadly anti-personnel rockets. The Israeli Air Force has produced unchallengeable video evidence of this Hamas war crime.

Just to take one comparison, consider the recent wars waged by Russia against Chechnya. In these wars Russian troops have killed tens of thousands of Chechnyan civilians, some of them willfully, at close range and in cold blood. Yet those radical academics who scream bloody murder against Israel (particularly in England) have never called for war crime tribunals to be convened against Russia. Nor have they called for war crime charges to be filed against any other of the many countries that routinely kill civilians, not in an effort to stop enemy terrorists, but just because it is part of their policy.

Nor did we see the Nuremburg-type rallies that were directed against Israel when hundreds of thousands of civilians were being murdered in Rwanda, in Darfur and in other parts of the world. These bigoted hate-fests are reserved for Israel.

The accusation of war crimes is nothing more than a tactic selectively invoked by Israel’s enemies. Those who cry “war crime” against Israel don’t generally care about war crimes, as such, indeed they often support them when engaged in by country’s they like. What these people care about, and all they seem to care about, is Israel. Whatever Israel does is wrong regardless of the fact that so many other countries do worse.

“You are a creep, Benjamin, and with every post your Jew hatred increases.”

Blame it on the stuff he smokes listening to pink floyd – he just can`t handle it.

“In the most recent war in Gaza fewer than a thousand civilians—even by Hamas’ skewed count—have been killed.”

Yes, you’re right. Instead of condemning Israel the world should applaud them for their mercy in only killing a thousand people.

(ps, I hope we’ve all contributed to the DEC appeal? Clean up the mess we caused guys, http://www.dec.org.uk is the site.)

You can’t just talk about Jews. Nor can you just talk about the Jewish state. Any discussion of war crimes must be comparative and contextual. If Russia did not commit war crimes when its soldiers massacred tens of thousands of Chechnyans (not even in a defensive war) then on what basis could Israel be accused of accidentally killing a far fewer number of human shields in an effort to protect its civilians? What are the standards? Why are they not being applied equally or selectively? Can human rights endure in the face of such unequal and selective application? These are the questions the international community should be debating, not whether Israel, and Israel alone, violated the norms of that vaguest of notions called “international law” or the “law of war.”

If Israel, and Israel alone among democracies fighting defensive wars, were ever to be charged with “war crimes,” that would mark the end of international human rights law as a neutral arbitrator of conduct. Any international tribunal that were to charge Israel, having not charged the many nations that have done far worse, will lose any remaining legitimacy among fair-minded people of good will,

If the laws of war in particular, and international human rights in general, are to endure, they must be applied to nations in order of the seriousness of the violations, not in order of the political unpopularity of the nations. If the law of war were applied in this manner, Israel would be among the last, and certainly not the first, charged.

“Yes, you’re right. Instead of condemning Israel the world should applaud them for their mercy in only killing a thousand people.”

Yes you are right – you are a poltroon.

And a Jew hater as well

I wonder if the people who barracaded themselves in at Cambridge Uni’s Law dept. yesterday are SWP members.
Apparantly their demands include that Cambridge hold a fund-raising day for Gaza, that the university provide 10 scholarships for Palestinian students every year, that Cambridge desists from providing Israel with arms (?!) and that they themselves are not punished for their actions.

Is this supposed to be a UK-based blog? What’s with this obsession with the Middle East?

You see, this is my problem. You don’t appreciate nuance, or the fact that all conflicts are shades of grey. Instantly, I’m called a “jew hater” because I criticised Israel.

In that kind of environment, where anyone who disagrees with you is accused of essentially being Hitler, how can there ever be a sensible debate?

(I might mention that I’m supportive of Israel’s right to exist, favour a two state solution, and will happily condemn Hamas as the evil bastards they are, but you wouldn’t care. You’d much rather keep your neat world where the divide is between the “decents” and jew hating, hamas loving misguided fools)

Khomeini’s revolution was enthusiastically helped by much of Iran’s left. Does anyone here remember what happened to leftists in general in Iran after 1979?

Not to mention the German Communist Party in 1932 making common cause with the Nazis — as in, for example, marching in demonstrations together, Red and Brown, arm in arm — to bring down the “greater enemy”, the Social Democrats.

The real point to forgetting what happens to leftists is that one also gets to ignore why leftists inevitably gravitate to totalitarian, hegemonist and/or nihilist causes.

Haha, great point grainger. On the front page now
6 stories about the middle east
2 about the holocaust
1 jokey cross post from The Onion

I’d really like to know HP’s opinion on the financial crisis, but I doubt their writers can function away from the certainties of the middle east conflict.

Whatever Benjamin’s views… i find the gratuitous insults fired at him continually on this site a bit over the top.. even his detractors have to admit that he is polite…

“Instantly, I’m called a “jew hater” because I criticised Israel.” – dave batista

WRONG. You were called that for your asinine “Instead of condemning Israel the world should applaud them for their mercy in only killing a thousand people.”
You are so full of yourself, and very narcissistic.

I took time to make a valid comment, and you lack the courtesy to treat it objectively. Stop thinking of yourself as the cat`s whiskers. And now you play the classic “victimhood”. I was right, a poltroon you are, and probably will stay one.

Anyone in the UK who supports peace and human rights in the Middle East should oppose the StWC, not march with it.[1}*

Yet until an idealised Valhalla of perfectionist protest materialises, people who object to such things as the Israelis' recent ham-fisted, scattershot bombardment of Gaza will continue to go on StWC marches, because they're the only people organising them.

I am heartily sick of this crap - if you want ideologically-pure protests without the assorted lunatics that show up to such things, organise and police them yourself. This isn't rocket science - if you object to the tone of anti-war protests, then organise your own anti-war protests.

I would've been happy to join the Harry's Place marches against the Iraq War; your marches against the bombing of Lebanon or your protests against the bombardment of Gaza. Trouble is, you didn't mount them because you actually favoured those conflicts and argued for them and dredged the internet for the worst propaganda you could find to discredit the actual protestors.

So, come on - the next time that some western nation launches some counterproductive and horribly violent assault on a heavily-populated urban area, why don't you - Harry's Place, its contributors and commenters - launch a an anti-war protest? I'll attend, even if it's in London, the other end of the country.

[1] Lebanon is surely an extremely difficult area for the Decent Left, since it’s basically a communalist/warlord democracy – everyone votes for the local my-ethnicity hard-man in the elections, and there hasn’t been a census taken since the seventies. If you’re looking for the very definition of the phrase The armalite and the ballot box, you really couldn’t do better than Lebanon, and it’s not just Hezbollah who view it that way.

Mikey

“Whatever Benjamin’s views… i find the gratuitous insults fired at him continually on this site a bit over the top.. even his detractors have to admit that he is polite…”

No, Mikey, he is not polite. No one who says:

“Militaristic, increasingly paranoid of the barbarians at the gate (or “worms”, “monkeys” or “cockroaches”, as some Israelis have called Arabs), its population fed propaganda by politicians dedicated to the military and security industries, its falling into cycle of brutalisation: bloodletting and destruction are increasingly accepted as a norm.”

can be said to be “polite.”

Guys, whatever our disagreements in these matters, let’s remind ourselves that difference and a plurality of viewpoints is what makes life meaningful.

By that token I’d like to invite one and all to the Unity Gathering for International Reconciliation this Sunday, starting at the Sunburst Meditation and Healing Rooms at 223, Kilburn High Street. There we will hear a lively debate between Jim McMinnow (Founder-Chairman for Life of the Barnes and Clapham Marcusian-Menshevik Irridentists’ Coalition), Suleiman Rafik QC (of the Civil Society think-tank Occidendi), and the writer and broadcaster David Ike. The debate will be on the subject, “Jews”.

Very much looking forward to seeing faces old and new! I can heartily recommend the refreshments which will be provided by theatrical catering company The Exploding Bakery.

Socialist Worker was reporting the words of Osama Hamden, shame that they didn’t check out Mr. Hamden’s other pronouncements:

Osama Hamdan, Hamas representative in Lebanon:

“Our goal is to liberate all of Palestine, from the river to the sea, from Rosh Hanikra to Umm Al-Rashrash [Eilat]. From Gaza, gentlemen… We do not want a state 364 square kilometers in size, nor do we want a state for which we had to beg at the negotiating table. Such a state will never come to be. What we want is a free state, which maintains its dignity, 27,000 square kilometers in size – the size of Palestine in its entirety.”

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD214608

“Just to take one comparison, consider the recent wars waged by Russia against Chechnya. In these wars Russian troops have killed tens of thousands of Chechnyan civilians, some of them willfully, at close range and in cold blood. Yet those radical academics who scream bloody murder against Israel (particularly in England) have never called for war crime tribunals to be convened against Russia. Nor have they called for war crime charges to be filed against any other of the many countries that routinely kill civilians, not in an effort to stop enemy terrorists, but just because it is part of their policy.”

In their last conflict they only killed 60-70 civilians, now apologize to the misunderstood Bear…. Oh and they also used the same “terrorism” excuse to level chechnya. Remember the hotel bombings?

“I’d really like to know HP’s opinion on the financial crisis, but I doubt their writers can function away from the certainties of the middle east conflict.”

Ha! this site is a cesspool, they are proud in their ignorance and lack of interest in economics, history and military topics (shocking that warnuts don’t know the difference between FMJ and JHP). So much so that I follow along and only debate what they consider to be important: racism and human rights. They care about the subject but are still ignorant of it.

That said if I ever need to find out who is the second-nephew-of-but-did-not-openly-denounce, I will make sure I contact the great Dick (Private) David T.

Last night he posted fake video of Jews dancing to the sound of dropping bombs

It was not fake, as I explained. It may have been misconstrued, as you suggested. But it was not fake.

Anyone in the UK who supports peace and human rights in the Middle East should oppose the StWC, not march with it.

That’s right.

And all those who support peace and human rights in the Middle East should immediately take up arms against as many arabs as possible. I hear the MOD is a good place to start.

Cruise Missiles – YES!
White Phosphorus – YES!
Depleted Uranium – YES!
Agent Orange – YES!
Hiroshima, Nagasaki – YES!

Qassam Rockets – FASCISM! TERRORISM! SENSELESS “MURDERISM”!

As long as there’s an Israeli/western flag slapped on any act of barbarism it’s progressive.

To the beloved Cas.
“I took time to make a valid comment, and you lack the courtesy to treat it objectively.Waaah!Mummy!!They is beeng horrbal to mees! Stop thinking of yourself as the cat`s whiskers.(!!?) And now you play the classic “victimhood”.(play that classic”victimhood” again,Sam) I was right, a poltroon you are, and probably will stay one.”

I have not said anything remotely racist in my comment. “Worms”, “monkeys” and “cockroaches” are what Palestinians have been called by some Israelis – rather prominent Israelis too.

I would suggest to Israel’s political class that if they don’t want their racism to be on record, they keep their lips sealed. Moreover, if they want to avoid the impression that Judaism (or at least a version of it) is actually verging on the insane, certain rabbis need to keep their mouths shut too:

“There is absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians.” Former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu.

“If they don’t stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand, and if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don’t stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.” Rabbi of Safed.

If prominent religious leaders in the UK or the USA had suggested mass slaughter as a solution, or had written to the political leaders to say that indiscriminate killing of civilians was morally okay, I think we might have heard more than a squeak from HP, particularly if they were Muslims. But this passes without a bat of HP’s collective eyelid.

From reading the rambling of these fanatics of Judaism, it is easy to come to the conclusion they are as murderous as the Muslims they love to hate.

If prominent religious leaders in the UK or the USA had suggested mass slaughter as a solution, or had written to the political leaders to say that indiscriminate killing of civilians was morally okay, I think we might have heard more than a squeak from HP,

Aye – For what it’s worth Benjamin, I think your contributions over the last month have been both interesting and accurate, and that you’ve taken a load of shite from people I’d cross the street to avoid.

Long may your lum reek.

Thanks Flying Rodent.

“Worms”, “monkeys” and “cockroaches” are what Palestinians have been called by some Israelis – rather prominent Israelis too. I would suggest to Israel’s political class that if they don’t want their racism to be on record, they keep their lips sealed.

Except of course that Palestinians were never called worms, monkeys and cockroaches by prominent Israelis; terrorists who murdered Israeli civilians were. I would suggest to Benji’s head that if it doesn’t want Benji’s agitprop racism to be on the record he cut off both his hands at the wrist.

For what it’s worth Flying Rodent and Benjamin deserve each other, that is if Benji’s dates with John Game and Flanker and Flying Rodent’s date with Hasbara Buster don’t work out

I hope we’ve all contributed to the DEC appeal? Clean up the mess we caused guys, http://www.dec.org.uk is the site

It’s absurd that the BBC refused to show the appeal. I assume it was the government of Israel that applied pressure on the BBC to come to this ludicrous decision?

The reason I say Israeli government is that I cannot see ordinary Brits of any ethnicity or religion, supporters of Israel or not, being up in arms about the showing of an appeal by respected charities to raise money for those suffering in a devastated war zone. The British govt criticised the BBC’s decision.

blahblahblah, if would you like me to pen you in for a date with Benji, Flying Rodent, Alberto ‘the hebrew buster’, John ‘the brain’ Game, Flanker or Mike, I’d encourage you to act now while our winter special is still on. Thanks

I assume it was the government of Israel that applied pressure on the BBC to come to this ludicrous decision The reason I say Israeli government is…

because you’re a liar.

For what it’s worth Flying Rodent and Benjamin deserve each other, that is if Benji’s dates with John Game and Flanker and Flying Rodent’s date with Hasbara Buster don’t work out

That’s some ice-cold shit, dawg!

Except of course that Palestinians were never called worms, monkeys and cockroaches by prominent Israelis

Wrong.

“The Arabs are worms. You find them everywhere like worms, underground as well as above.” Yehiel Hazan, Likud

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Former Chief of Staff and Minister Raphael Eitan.

“You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic.” Moshe Feiglin, Likud.

Well, who pressurised the BBC? You think it was the British public so outraged over the broadcasting of a charity appeal for people in a devastated war zone? The British government didn’t apply pressure. So who did?

That’s some ice-cold shit, dawg!

Some members have disclosed sexual fantasies involving ice-cold shit, although no one yet has listed ice cold dog or dawg shite as a preference. To add ice-cold dawg shite as one of your hamasexual fantasy preferences, log on with your personal stopper id and password and type your hamasexual preference in the blank field then click submit. It’s that simple. Your preference will then show up in the Pilger Pop Up menu for other prospective stopper members to peruse. Hope this helps.

Benjamin, Jews have always had cause to fear the “pressure” of the “democratic” mob.

I think the “pressure” upon the BBC is the wish of its directors not to succumb to it. G-d help us.

It’s a question of taste really. I have always found phoney politeness to be annoying and sly – it’s one of the things that irritates me about Medialens – but after I was banned today for expressing non-Zionist views in a direct fashion, I was told I need to change my style to be more emollient like Benji if I could post again, so Benji must be doing something right.

These days Benji is the gold standard for expressing contrarian views at HP it seems.

Come on Benj if the State of Israel was pressuring the BBC that would be news and the BBC would report it, which is why the state would probably only get involved in such things publicly and only when it was worth it’s while to do so publicly.

Also the knashing of teeth coalition in this thread seem to forever forget the obvious fact that the war ends the minute the Palestinians make peace, that fact makes the Palestinians the aggressors. Israel would be at peace with every single neighbor if her neighbors allowed it.

In this last confrontation in Gaza, the anti Israel coalition has been seriously disappointed.

At first, Israel stood back and used only hi tech weaponry to attack Hamas but the rockets continued.

Israel had to go in on the ground. The anti Israel coalition waited with baited breath to hear how may Israelis would be killed. Hamas was building on many Israeli casualties for Israel and it didn’t happen.

And horror upon horrors, there was talk of Hamas heroes removing their uniforms and hiding their weapons so that they could ‘mingle’ as civilian populations.

What a disappointment. I believe that 11 Israelis were killed in ‘Cast Lead’ and more than half of those from ‘friendly’ fire.

What is left for the anti Israel coalition. ‘War crimes’. ‘Humanitarian disaster’ etc etc etc

A very telling statement – I examined the enormous lack of proportion in the Guardian’s reporting on world events, and how it had published no less than 109 articles in the course of 20 days on Israel and the Middle East.. I quote from Another blog

It adds up to sheer hysteria from the anti Israel coalition.

The Israeli government almost certainly had nothing to do with it. The Beeb is just looking for a reason to be treated with more respect by the pro-Israeli side of the argument, who often lump them in with the likes of Al Jazeera and C4, when in reality they are much more careful and nuanced.

What a disappointment. I believe that 11 Israelis were killed in ‘Cast Lead’ and more than half of those from ‘friendly’ fire.

I don’t think that is the case. People wanted no Israelis at all to be killed so contrasting the figures would look even worse than they currently do.

It’s always a pleasure to pay a visit to HP because, once here, seeing all those neutral, democratic and alert critical minds that discovered that the BBC is either in the Israeli goverment’s pocket or is a front organization for the Mossad, I can be sure that, whatever the abstract discussions about the right to statehood are, there’s only one single conclusion that any sane Jew can reach: that in the interest of their individual and collective survival the Jews need a state of their own.

The Jews have always been and are right now in danger. They’re still the ethnic minority every derranged mind in the world (and there are lots of them) loves to blame for everything and still are the first to be persecuted whatever they do or do not do.

The Arabs’ existence (and that is what the Palestinians are: Arabs like the Egyptians or Jordanians) is not in danger. The only Palestinians who run any kind of risk are professional terrorists, their human shields and, obviously, those Arabs who are opposed to their Arab rulers.

Palestinians fear Israel less than they do Hamas and, as soon as they stop trying to kill Israelis (or Jews elsewhere: for instance in Argentina), they’ll have nothing to fear from Israel.

There are many more Arabs and Muslims in general in Europe and the Americas than there are (or ever were) Jews. Still, I have not heard of anything similar in bestiality or scale to what was done to the Jews of Buenos Aires (with the obvious and indispensable collaboration of local Jew haters).

Though there’s a lot of talk of Islamophobia, I’ve not heard of many Islamophobic pogroms in Europe or the Americas either.

Speaking of C4 news, as I informed people on another thread at the time, they had a report two nights ago that Hamas were shooting civilians that wouldn’t allow them to use their neighbourhoods as a base for fighting during the conflict, and how Hamas are now setting up kangeroo courts to execute socalled Fatah spies.

I’m surprised no one picked up on it. People only see the remarks that are against their views I suppose.

Benjamin, you can find members stupid and racists members of government in every country.

However, one of your quotes has already been debunked by camera.org:

Former Chief of Staff and Minister Raphael Eitan quote which has its source in Fisk’s work and has been posted on every antisemitic blog in the internet:

““When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.”

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=775

I am not sure about the other two quotes either, but since I do know both Hazan and Feiglin whether they said whay you said or not are prety awful right wingers and capable of saying such things.

Still, these quotes don’t begin to match the filth coming out the Arab governments with regards to Jews and have been picked by anti-Zionists websites and which you don’t seem to give a damn.

You are every bit as despicable as Hazan and Feiglin and probably worse since you are also a hypocrit.

I know for certain that the quote attributed to Raphael Eitan which is sometimes cited as: The New York Times, April 14, 1983 is a fabrication because it never appeared in the April 14, 1983 edition of the NY Times.

The ONLY source for the Yehiel Hazan quote is aljazeera.net If this quote were accurate it would have been front page news on Ha’aretz. It’s a fabrication

The Feiglin quote is likely accurate and it is likely one of the reasons that the Netanyahu camp in Likud was trying to oust Feiglin.

So no Benjamin I’m not wrong as two thirds of your cut and paste slanders are fabricated lies.

Flying Rodent,

if the march is being organised by people that are pro-war, it really has no reason to call itself an antiwar march. Most of these people are one staters who support Hamas’ successful sabotage of the two state peace talks every single time it was getting somewhere, like after the Iraq war when Blair persuaded Bush to crack heads and get Sharon and Abbas to sit down for the first time. I’m sure there are some good people there as well, but I would never go on such a thing and be surrounded by those who believe the solution is for Hamas to fire more rockets until they achieve their unrealist goal, and Islamists who see this as an ideological war against Jews and the west, or the far left who very much see this a geopolitical battle. They are part of the problem.

If you want peace then the best thing to do not to give these people credibility by associating with them, and instead lobby the government to take a harder line. For what it’s worth I think David Miliband has played a blinder and very nearly saved hundreds of lives by getting a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire, if the Americans hadn’t pulled out at the last minute. The government have also been very vocal against the BBC for this silly decision on the aid appeal thing.

The sensible thing to do is to join the Labour party and support the government, not go on marches.

blahblahblah: You too are a F***-up A******e.

See this. The SWP’s position towards Islamism, comes from Tony Cliff writing a position paper, that revised Trotsky’s theory of permanent revolution.

Bartok: Read part 2 of the link I put up. The fundamentalists in Iran, were supported by sections of the Iranian Army, the modernist bourgeoise opposition to the Shah who opposed the family’s absolute power. The CIA helped the fundamentalists come to power. The mullahs were always part of the Iranian ruling class, although then a quiet part. The Stalinists tailed the mullahs.

It’s simpleminded just to say “the left.” Mullahs came to power with some of the Shah’s own people as well as the CIA. In Germany you are talking about Stalinists, not “the left.”

I think a number of you are missing the point of the OP.

Fact: it doesn’t matter whether or not this that or the other Israeli politician supposedly said uncomplimentary things about Arabs. I’ve read similar quotes before and they turned out to be false accusations or taken out of context. Often “quotes” are created by snipping a word here, putting it with another there, and was never said in the first place.

That said nobody is denying that some Israelis are bigoted against Arabs. This is true of other people in the West as well. It’s a shame and it isn’t right and we should all work against bigotry of any kind.

It’s difficult to fight antisemitism as long as people are blind to the hatred and stereotyping of ANY group.

HOWEVER – and this is a big “however”: there’s a difference between a person or people making bigoted comments – which they should immediately cease and work on trying to see their neighbors as human beings – and entire groups and nations of people deliberately threatening to exterminate another entire nation.

And – there is a huge difference between the amount of attention focused on Israel and that focused on really brutal conflicts around the world.

News coverage isn’t even close. Condemnation – not even close. Protests – not even close. In fact people from another planet might get the impression that Israel is some enormous, all powerful monster enslaving millions, instead of a tiny state populated largely by people who’ve been hunted nearly to death and who are subjected daily to attacks and whose security measures mustn’t fail lest the bloodshed be appalling.

The casual dismissal of terrorist attacks against Jews and Israelis is another aspect of this sad situation. Well pretending it doesn’t exist only makes matters worse. And it reflects the fact that it is the Jews who are the world’s real worms – the fact that the residents of Israel are attacked for decades apparently has no meaning to the brave fighters of the “resistance” and their “progressive” supporters. Or wait – I guess those attacks are the idea. “Freeing Palestine” – ie destroying Israel – I guess that’s the idea.

So tell me guys. How does this compare to some nasty, unseemly, admittedly unfair and biased comments from “Israeli politicians”? Tell me please. I want to know how some nasty comments compare to threats to exterminate people who’ve already suffered thousands of years of torment and destroy their state?

Can I have an answer please?

And this coverage of Israel is constant – and not all that well researched either – look at the stories about Jenin! – and it goes on regardless of the provocation or lack thereof for whatever transgression is currently being condemned. And it beats on relentlessly regardless of the enormity of the problems confronting this world, the number of people involved in various wars, the overall violence that scars our planet, in some cases the truly awful number of people killed, maimed, displaced, raped, dismembered, bereaved.

People who’ve posted above about the fact that human rights law is meaningless unless applied to one and all are absolutely correct.

Here we have deliberate, institutionalized bigotry – not casual or stupid or thoughtless bigotry – wrong yes but curable – curable by thinking, by education, simply by having an open heart and an open mind and by being self-critical, self-aware, trying to do better, be better people.

No – this other thing reflects deliberate bigotry not only against Israel as a state and against its citizens as human beings – but indirectly against the victims of other wars all over the world – men, women and children who receive little or no attention, who receive no aid, who have no UN agencies leaping to assist them – no special treatment for the hundreds of millions of people who’ve become refugees since WWII.

Where are the progressives deploring the use of child soldiers, the gang rapes of women, the oppression of gays, of dissent around the the world? Who protests the murder of Buddhists in Thailand? The horrible crimes in Mumbai, the repression of freedom in Iran? Who stands for the murdered millions in Africa?

Where is the creative thinking that would help end poverty, cure disease, clean the oceans? Why – it’s out in the streets in Beirut, inciting another war with Israel, that’s where.

And how many states in the world are constantly and repeatedly targeted for destruction? By “progressives” yet, people who theoretically believe in human rights? Are the 7 million citizens of Israel not human too? Have THEY no right to life?

That’s what’s so strikingly wrong about this picture. The whole situation is insane.

A final comment: people accusing Harry’s of liking war are missing the other point to all this.

The “resistance” – ie violent terrorist attacks against civilians – which result in said unfortunate and awful wars or acts of retribution or attempts to stop the terrorist attacks – is being incited by so-called “progressives” who claim they love peace.

That is unconscionable and so is the press which beats the drum.

Flying Rodent posted …

“If prominent religious leaders in the UK or the USA had suggested mass
slaughter as a solution, or had written to the political leaders to say
that indiscriminate killing of civilians was morally okay ”

Fell asleep during that whole history class section on WWII did you?

Benjamin is one of those obsessed Israel haters who spends his time collecting quotes and videos from antisemitic websites and posts them here.

Yes, benajmin the video you liked to yesterday was a fake. Any ten year old who took and introductory video course could see that.

The video, btw, showed a group of Jewish soldiers dancing and to Benjamin they must have been celebrating the death of Arabs. Jews have no reason to dance, otherwise.

You missed your calling, Benjamin. You should have been working in Stalin’s propaganda ministry.

I was initially prevented from entering the Cairo Book Fair yesterday because I had a copy of Patrick Cockburn’s Muqtada al-Sadr with me. The mukhabaraat couldn’t decide on whether the cover featured a picture of Hasan Nasrallah or not. I told them no, Sadr is an Iraqi cleric. They asked me to explain the difference. I replied that although they were both shi’ah clerics, both had strongly denounced Israel in no uncertain terms. They let me in and allowed me to keep the book.

Moral: even overtly secular instruments of Mubarakism, despite their ingrained suspicion of the shi’ah, quickly lose their sectarian prejudices if ‘others’ are critical of Israel.

Hats off to Habibi!

Where are the progressives deploring the use of child soldiers, the gang rapes of women, the oppression of gays, of dissent around the the world? Who protests the murder of Buddhists in Thailand? The horrible crimes in Mumbai, the repression of freedom in Iran? Who stands for the murdered millions in Africa?

The systematic eradication of any Christian presence in the ME?

The Jews have always been and are right now in danger. They’re still the ethnic minority every derranged mind in the world (and there are lots of them) loves to blame for everything and still are the first to be persecuted whatever they do or do not do.

This reminds me of the astonishment of an Israeli journalist when Argentina sank into depression in 2001-2002, with the highest GDP drop for a capitalist democracy since WWII. “The Jews have not been blamed for the crisis,” he wrote from Buenos Aires, somewhat in disbelief, but also evidently disappointed that what he knew had to happen hadn’t happened.

The Jews are not in danger. Not in the US, not in Argentina, not in Europe and not even in Sderot.

Wall Street Journal video: Jews in Sderot watching the destruction of the Gaza Strip, not in the least worried about the possibility of being hit by a Qassam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FHo4OXgi5g

And – there is a huge difference between the amount of attention focused on Israel and that focused on really brutal conflicts around the world.

The same was true of South African apartheid.

The wars in Congo and Angola were far more brutal, yet the international community disproportionately focused on apartheid until it was ended.

This is a very unfair world we’re living in.

The Jews are not in danger. Not in the US, not in Argentina, not in Europe and not even in Sderot.

Wall Street Journal video: Jews in Sderot watching the destruction of the Gaza Strip, not in the least worried about the possibility of being hit by a Qassam:

“The Hasbara Buster” I feel sorry for you. You obviously have no idea what you are nor how obvious it is.

Moral: even overtly secular instruments of Mubarakism, despite their ingrained suspicion of the shi’ah, quickly lose their sectarian prejudices if ‘others’ are critical of Israel.

That’s another example of why Israel will never be allowed peace. If there hadn’t been an Israel to hate, the Sunnies and the Shiites would probably be slaughtering each other by now. They need Jews and Christians to hate to keep them from killing each other. This is not a statement about race, but about how badly the dogma of Jihad (and takfir) fits into a world with easy travel and mechanized warfare. It’s too easy to make war now, and they need safer enemies than each other and further enemies.

Israel has always been a safer enemy than each other, that’s its purpose, as a scape goat.

The Jews are even less endangered in Mecca and Medina.

How many criminals are in jail because of the attack on AMIA?

How many madres de la Plaza de Mayo have protested against that attack?

The Jews are even less endangered in Mecca and Medina.

lol, I love that swipe. If Mohammad hadn’t killed all the Jews in Medina and then made that his purpose Palestinians would be living happily and prosperously with Israelis right now.

The Jews have always been and are right now in danger.

The irony.

However, one of your quotes has already been debunked by camera.org:

Wrong.

I checked your link, and found, lo and behold, the quote was accurate.

All my other quotes are accurate too, they are matter of public record.

Nice to throw in the line about antisemitic sites. The fact is these quotes are matter of public record – that is the key point.

So no Benjamin I’m not wrong as two thirds of your cut and paste slanders are fabricated lies.

They are all accurate.

Yes, benajmin the video you liked to yesterday was a fake. Any ten year old who took and introductory video course could see that.

As you know, you are not telling the truth. You viewed the clip yesterday and saw very clearly that the helicopters and ordnance were filmed at the same time as the celebrating Israelis – the camera pulled out, showing the Isrealis and the helicopters and ordnance. You know that.

The only dispute is how far away the helicopters and ordnance were, and whether the Israelis were actually celebrating the war or some other event.

The irony: AMIA.
The victims were Argentinian citizens. Civilians.
It took place in Buenos Aires. That’s as far from the Middle East as one can get without leaving the planet altogether.
How many anti-Arab pogroms have there been in the West since the invention of that fictional expression “Islamophobia”?
Islamophobia: oh the irony of it.

Does anyone remember the Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11/2001? Did the BBC show it? If not, was it due to Israeli pressure?

This ought to shut up the “ethnic cleansing of Palestine” crowd for a few minutes, though i’m sure it won’t, cause nothing will. From the pen of that noted Zionist moammar gadhafi, leader of libya, who, in arguing for a one-state solution, nonetheless makes the following observations in a wed, jan. 21 op ed in the new york times:

“The basis for the modern State of Israel is the persecution of the Jewish people, which is undeniable. The Jews have been held captive, massacred, disadvantaged in every possible fashion by the Egyptians, the Romans, the English, the Russians, the Babylonians, the Canaanites and, most recently, the Germans under Hitler. The Jewish people want and deserve their homeland.

AND

“It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 — violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians. They were never “un-welcomed.” Yet only the full territories of Isratine can accommodate all the refugees and bring about the justice that is key to peace.”

Wonder what Ilan Poope and his acolytes make of that last paragraph, they’ve got themselves totally hookwinked into believing their own propaganda about “ethnic cleansing” and so on…

God – Leila – that takes you back to the days when UK newspapers were suckers for pretty terrorists (Bernadette Devlin as she then was, was also a darling in her miniskirt).

I wonder what Leila thinks about the Palestinian cause being take over by a bunch of women-back-to-the-kitchen neanderthals?

i think it’s great that benjamin has thrown off the mask and revealed his true colors. Imagine trying to make a point by quoting 3 or 4 israelis making racist remarks about Arabs, when the entire Arab world, its media, leaders, men on the street (of course you rarely ever see women, the real and rarely remarked on pathology of the Arab world), imbues racism about Jews in its mothers milk (apes and pigs anyone).

And while i’m at it, i’d like to respond to more nonsense from Benjamin from another thread that I couldn’t deal with because discussion was closed on the thread before I could get back. I had said:

“Could you even imagine the UK tolerating 80, much less 8000 rockets before going berserko and using high-powered weapons. I can’t.

To which our resident genius replied:
“If the IRA had been firing rockets into Scotland from Belfast, the British certainly would not have responded by flattening west Belfast, and large swathes of Northern Ireland. That’s an Israeli thing, not a British thing.
AND HE KNOWS THIS — HOW? It’s never happened. I suspect a few hundred bombs and suicide attacks into Belfast, and I wouldn’t have wanted to be a resident of West Belfast. In fact, if the natives on the reserves here near vancouver were to lob a few hundred bombs into vancouver, I wouldn’t feel safe in the reserve. But of course Benjamin knows best because ….. he says so. Next:

“Half of the British parliament does not contain people who want to take over Ireland, and there are no politicians supporting English settlements in occupied land.”

Well, Ireland is not openly hoping for England to disappear and actively trying to make that happen. Ireland is not claming all of England for itself. A distinction that Benjamin ignores, obviously because it messes up his tidy little worldview.”:

As for his contention that English leaders aren’t racist, well, neither are the Irish particularly. That’s the advantage of living on insular islands compared to being in the maelstrom of the middle east, where racism is endemic and those israelis who have succumbed to it have had excellent role models in their Arab/Muslim enemies, who aren’t shy about what they think of Jews (and christians, assyrians, chaldeans, maronites, druze, etc. etc. etc.). apparently only Jewish racism interests Benjamin.

To sum up, total selective reasoning, and something really stinky is going on beneath all the rhetoric.

The attendance of the ‘far left’ at this gathering and indeed their earth shattering stupidity in aligning themselves with Islamist lunatics must be, without doubt, the most idiotically moronic political strategy since the Japanese attacked the USA and the Nazis attacked Russia.

The last, vanishingly small, almost sub-atomic chance the far left had of convincing ‘The People’ they had something to offer besides the usual Marxist dictatorships has been flushed (by themselves) down the toilet.

These are the kind of ’socialists’ who attend these conferences.
If I may be allowed to mirror a observation that was recorded in 1930s Russia

“This must be one of the wonders of our age”

There are earnest believers in a German Jew named Karl Marx who now stand shoulder to shoulder with lunatics who, if they would have had the chance, beheaded their socialist messiah simply because he was a Jew.

There are earnest believers in social housing who look at the ruined buildings and blame only the Jews for the destruction.

There are earnest campaigners for equal rights who ignore the Islamist doctrine of Dhimmitude.

There are earnest supporters for the rights of women who stare in awe at men who think the word of a woman is worth half that of a man and that the ‘honor’ killing of young girls is honorable.

There are earnest socialist revolutionaries who stare pride at Islamist theocratic dictators and pray for the day they too have a one party state, but never give even a passing thought to the fate of their missing comrades who at one time also stared at these heros of the revolution.

There are earnest socialists who, with tears of joy in their eyes, stare at Islamist fanatics and chant along with them for the destruction of the evil west.

The credulity of these mostly University educated socialists, in all they see and hear, shocks even the most committed Islamists who are used to dealing with (mostly western) self hating fools.

To all those ’socialists’ who support this conference take a look in the mirror and ask yourselves, is this socialism? If the answer is yes, then you have joined the ranks of the people who believed the ’socialist’ part of ‘National Socialist German Workers Party.

Yawn, this site is getting boring. Why not rename is “hurry up and support Israel”. We all know that Israel were disgusting during the recent attack on Gaza. To pretend otherwise insults everyone’s intelligence. Move on …

We al know that Hamas is and has always been disgusting and has for long been asking for (and deserving) much more than the reaction it actually got.
For guys like this one, Jews in general are disgusting, period (or is full-stop?).

Vildechaye

I am not saying Jews are uniquely racist or more racist than others. I am not saying Israel is particularly awful in historic terms. I am simply redressing the balance here; no one here will mention those clerics of Judaism saying those words, but there is lot of stuff here about Muslims saying dodgy things. No one here will mention how Israeli politicians can say racist things about Arabs. Israel and Israelis are rarely criticised. So I am just redressing the balance.

David T must be at a flower show because he ain’t doing any pruning here. Not only do a lot of the merchant bankers here need pruning but the blog is infested with every kind of parasite known to man with the blackshirt fly the most prevalent.

I’m singlanded going to whipe out all zionist-fake-jews from this forum.

Then you are going to learn how to spell you schticklaus.

The sad thing is that the uglier “anti-war” commentors like Benji get, the more they support the dismal thesis of this blog.

On the excellent comments about double-standards in accusing Israel of War Crimes when no other country gets accused of thgem for far worse:-

We should also wonder why with UN and ICRC working in Gaza that they never cited Hamas for War Crimes for firing 8,000 rockets at Israeli civilians, for placing their combatants amongst civilians (thereby forceing them to be humans shields) and for summary executions of their population for either belonging to a different party (Fatah) or for allegations of spying (all without any judicial process).

I believe that the USA attitude, supported by the likes of France, Germany, Italy would not tolerate any War Crimes indictment of Israelis. I seem to remember that there were some spurious wacky indictments of Bush, Blair and Powell lodged in The Hague many years ago and they were froced to drop them by diplomatic pressure.

BTW, I missed out the UK from my list deliberately. Milliband and a few others would be happy to carry the rope and pull the lever.

Is this supposed to be a UK-based blog? What’s with this obsession with the Middle East?

By what right does the British Broadcasting Company provide news from outside these shores? They should be concentrating local fetes, Mrs Rosen’s cat stuck in a tree and swimming-pool access problems for transgender people.

Haven’t you worked out that we are all fifth-columninsts on the payroll of Mossad? We are the newly recruited Zionist Blogger Army.

Great article by Denis MacEoin in CiF stating that the best strategy is for Hamas to be disarmed. The Cif’ers will HATE it! http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/20/gaza-hamas-israel-ceasefire

Gaza lives. There has been no genocide, as so often claimed. Hamas, badly wounded, limps on and claims an overwhelming victory. The recent assault, it appears, was “just a scratch”. When Hamas claims that, out of over 1,000 deaths, a mere 48 were their own fighters, it is hard to tell if they have any link to reality at all.

Is this supposed to be a UK-based blog? What’s with this obsession with the Middle East?

Arise little Englanders! We only want to talk about warm beer, cricket and old ladies on bicycles!

Israel has always been a safer enemy than each other, that’s its purpose, as a scape goat.

Arguably the most noteworthy aspect of Israel’s anti-Hamas driven Operation Cast Lead, has been the reaction to Pally suffering in Egypt, the most populous and some might say influential Middle Eastern country. The collective yawn that has been gradually spreading across the country, in spite of sporadic attempts to equate Israeli self-defence with Nazism by the MB, is quite reassuring.

Egyptians are mostly tired of the Pallys and their mouthpieces in the Arab World and want bygones to be bygones, tahqeeq us-salaam, 2/3/4 state solution etc.

Your average Egyptian, when faced with the choice between the efficient, mercantile, freedom-loving state of Israel or the primitivist charnel house created by Hamas and sought by other Islamist demi-gods across the world, would always choose the Joose.

Aye – For what it’s worth Benjamin, I think your contributions over the last month have been both interesting and accurate, and that you’ve taken a load of shite from people I’d cross the street to avoid.

Long may your lum reek.

Says SPSC!

Aye, and may a reeking lum still remain uncureable and fatal.

The Hamas worshippers must be so sick – their Saladin spent three weeks hiding under a hospital. Perhaps he is a secret member of the Knights hospitallers? Send for the firing squads!

“Gazans have no food, no shelter, no water” is the consensus cry of the pro-Palestinian causes.

Has anyone ever heard of a Gazan who actually died of starvation, dehydration or exposure? (not that I would wish it)

I have no doubt the Gazans need help but I don’t believe they are as bad off as the hyperbole suggests. It makes you think they are all nomadic Arabs with a tent, goats and camels. In fact they are a relatively modern people living in social housing with Gaza City a modern-looking Middle East capital with all the modern trimming of medium rise buildings etc.

I find the appeal to be politically motivated too.

“The ideological differences must be POSTPONED”, mmm not reconciled but ‘POSTPONED’ until when?? I seem to recall reading about a certain Austrian Corporal who expressed the same view around the time of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

All you need for Benjamin’s mask of nonchalance to slip off is for Israel to win a war. And then you get the full strenght of the Jew hatred that animates this kind of people: Israelis are depicted as violent, racist, incapable of thinking in other terms than war, etc, etc. The “cruel Jew” stereotype applied to Israel.

Conversely, when a war ends inconclusively for Israel, you get the folksy joksy Benjamin at its best.
Truly he is Pennywise the Clown.

Fabian, Benji is stranger than you give him credit for. This isn’t just anti-Jew mania, this is more profound disconnect from normal emotion or judgment – and I also think he takes an immature pleasure in sparing with us.

I remember his offensive jovial pleasure at 7/7… I also remember that he seemed to realize that his sense of humor was a failure (maybe he doesn’t actually have one – and was faking one without understanding what humor is) – and he stopped trying to joke.

I’m reminded of a friend of mine with asperger’s syndrome. He has found a way to connect emotionally with people (and deeply enough too), and for that he is to be congratulated, but he will never seem normal in his relationships.

I can understand you using accusing me of antisemitism, this is standard HP behavour, and even more so at this time.

I deliberately use Israeli sources, and just stick them up here: the quotes, the surveys showing increasing racism in Israel, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs stuff, the quote from the Defence Ministry etc. All these and other sources directly relate to various Israeli actions, attitudes or behaviour. There is nothing mysterious or opaque about it at all. Its just all there.

Its very interesting to see the reaction. They are either dismissed out of hand as fabrications, or it prompts accusations of antisemitism, or moral relativism is used. But I make no apologies for judging Israel by the standards of a civilised democracy.

Rabbis can say, for example:

There is absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians” or “If they don’t stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand, and if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don’t stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.”

And the response is silence, or denial, or talk of “Pallys”, or all the rest of the huffing and puffing.

I just think its all a fascinating peek into the mind of nationalists. I am not a Jew or an Arab, and I am not a patriot or a nationalist of any kind. Its just so all so silly and pointless.

There are so many ironies about this recent Gaza conflict. There are many ironies in people’s reactions. However, a certain nuance and distance is required to understand that irony, and you have to see things dispassionately.

Benji lacks the basic insight into human emotion it takes to realize that being surrounded by 200 million people in the gulf, probably half of which would like to see ethic cleansing or genocide against ones country does elicit some emotional response among Israelis. As I said asperger’s.

I just think its all a fascinating peek into the mind of nationalists. I am not a Jew or an Arab, and I am not a patriot or a nationalist of any kind. Its just so all so silly and pointless.

Belief in the concept of a nation state does not preclude compassion for others. Quite the contrary, diplomacy pre-/during/post-Cast Lead has been most effective when conducted by individual states in concert; with similar values and ideals. By contrast, the vastly inefficient and undemocratic transglobal behemoths like the UN and EU have looked and acted like institutional shits.

“I’d really like to know HP’s opinion on the financial crisis, but I doubt their writers can function away from the certainties of the middle east conflict.”

Financial crisis ? No doubt benjamin and others will blame the jews.

GW

No doubt benjamin and others will blame the jews.

Not at all. As I said, its HP that is into Jewish particularism, not me.

As I said asperger’s.

Thank you kind sir. I expect your diagnosis in the post air mail special.

I would prefer psychotic or personality disorder, or something like that, much more hardcore. Can I slip you a tenner?

Benjamin, you aren’t redressing any balance, you are an apologist for Hamas which has just announced that unless the PA desists from any and all peace talks with Israel there can be no reconciliation with Fatah. You write that all your quotes are accurate, but merely because you say so isn’t any proof. Prove it.

Benjamin: What’s interesting psychologically is how you flatter yourself into thinking it’s you who is dispassionate, when it’s obvious you have a bee in your bonnet about Israel. Nothing dispassionate about that. And I hope your references to accusations of anti-semitism didn’t refer to me. I’d like to see you or anyone else back up that canard.

Oh, and as for “redressing the balance.” Funny i always thought that’s what HP does, how unbalanced and anti-Israel/Zionist virtually all commentary on left blogs is. I find it curious, and interesting, that this is the so-called “balance” you choose to “redress.” It’s a joke, really.

Benjamin and others repeat the mantra about Israeli war crimes in Gaza.
But when we compare the Israeli behaviour with the behaviour of some western countries, we find out, that Israel warned those harbouring launching pads for rockets, explosives and weapons that their house will be bombed and that they should save their lives. Did and does the USA and the British army behave like this in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan?
Israel did interrupt the fight for 3 hours so that hundreds of trucks could enter Gaza.
Now compare that with Hamas, who killed a few hundred Fatah members when taking power, Hamas who killed just now about 100 alleged collaborators. And when we speak about Human Rights, Hamas is holding an Israel soldier more than 940 days without allowing the International Red Cross to visit him.
So when we consider, that all those fervent Israel bashers never said a word against such breaches of Human Rights, we can qualify them as bigots and hypocrites.

Did and does the USA and the British army behave like this in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Direct comparisons are always hard to make. Probably the most similar action to that in Gaza was the Falluja operation, and in that case the US did give civilians a couple of weeks to leave before they went in.

The problem in Gaza is there isn’t really anywhere to go, and Hamas are a very long standing grass roots organisation, unlike Al Qaeda in Iraq. But I take your point.