Harry’s Place

“Again, it’s his right to believe that, and it must be comforting to him.”

They are in the Pursuit of the Millenium, the fools.

“There are now many hundreds of dead Palestinians2

And do you think those left alive now love you more?

“And do you think those left alive now love you more?”

Did they hate us less before?

Fabian, do us all a favour.

The next time someone blows themselves up at an Israeli bus stop, don’t try and tell you us you have no idea why it could have happened.

“And do you think those left alive now love you more?”

The object wasn’t to win anyone’s love, it was to stop the idiots firing rockets.

“This is a guest post by Eric Lee. It was submitted to the Guardian’s Comment is Free, which did not publish it”

Why the presumption that they should they publish this second rate propaganda? It’s a bit weird to complain that a national newspaper hasn’t published your blog entry when you’re not one of their bloggers. Below is the list of Cif bloggers with surnames beginning with ‘L’. Me Lee’s name is not amongst them.

Laila Lalami
David Lammy
Mark Lawson
Neal Lawson
Katherine Le Ruez
Jeremy Leggett
Philippe Legrain
Lethal Bizzle
Ellie Levenson
Sanford Levinson
Adrian Levy
Nicholas Lezard
Damon Linker
Gretchen Lippitt
Michael Lisman
Ken Livingstone
Dylan Loewe
Antony Loewenstein
Salim Lone
Jeremy Lott
Ben Lowenberg
David Lowry
Caroline Lucas
Tim Luckhurst
Lucy Chesire
Mark Lynas

This is just the next step in the Middle East cycle. Here’s how it goes:

1. Hamas fires rockets at Israel.
2. Israel invades/retaliates
3. UN, world condemns it, calls for ceasefire.
4. Ceasefire called. Israel withdraws.
5. Hamas claims victory.
6. Go to 1 & repeat.

Really, the only unreasonable step is 3. How about next time the UN & the world just says to Hamas, well you asked for it. How about next time the ceasefire includes a condition about the destruction of the missiles & the prosecution of the missile firers?

No chance? Well, then, history will repeat itself ad nauseum.

‘Why the presumption that they should they publish this second rate propaganda?’

Presumably the idea is that the Guardian only publishes first rate propaganda like Mousa Abu Marzook’s piece.

William, just a little point. Your little bullet points seem to miss out the tiny fact that it is Israel occupying Palestine and not the other way round.

If Palestinian Merkeva tanks were shelling Tel Aviv you might have a point, but as we both know that is never going to happen…

But the evidence on the ground is that the population in Gaza must be questioning – at the very least – just how smart it was to provoke a regional superpower with pin-prick rocket attacks over many months

This sentence underlines why this is a shit article that doesn’t deserve publication in any serious media outlet. So the “evidence” that the population is questioning Hamas’ leadership, is that “they must be questioning” Hamas’ leadership! ROFL

That Hamas feels able to turn the screw on Fatah suggests that they believe they have the street behind them, and common sense should tell you that they are probably correct.

Why the presumption that they should they publish this second rate propaganda?

The idea that second-rate propaganda is not the quintessence of Cif is a little counter-intuitive. But I would like to see that argument made. Until then, I would just say that, face down in the mud, it is not proper to distinguish between clay and marl.

“That Hamas feels able to turn the screw on Fatah suggests that they believe they have the street behind them, and common sense should tell you that they are probably correct.” (Comrade Zim)

Are you sure, Zim?
http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2009/01/who-has-won-here-.html

Isn’t it a bit insulting to the people of Gaza to suggest that they are generally right behind Hamas’s suicidal policy of rocket attacks on Israel?

Well no Zin I would think if Hamas felt they had so much popular support then they wouldn’t need to murder the opposition.

But you are far more of an expert on violent power grabs than I am, given your association with extremists and lunatic fringe communist groups and support for authoritarian regimes.

Hamas feels able to turn the screw on Fatah suggests that they believe they have the street behind them

It doesn’t suggest that at all. It suggests that, badly weakened, Hamas fear Fatah will take the opportunity–the best they are likely to get–to turf Hamas out, or at least weaken them further.

Hamas probably did meet some of its war aims here. It wanted to provoke a global anti-Israel reaction and it got it (well, in places). I’m sure they think that was worth the human sacrifice, after-all human sacrifice is pretty much Hamas’s stock tactic. Lovely chaps, let’s give them weapons and money!

He is an IT guy!

As Dave says Hamas don’t want Fatah to be seen as able to help rebuild and provide aid. There is a meme going round at the moment that Hamas will gain in popularity due to the Israeli actions. Whilst I agree that it will have not ingratiated the Israelis to the Palestinians I’m not sure it automatically confers meaningful increased support for Hamas. It’s a rather simplistic argument that ignores the complex political situation in Gaza, the lack of serious Hamas resistance to the Israeli attack and that a lot of public perception is going to be built by how they handle this current aftermath.

Hence we see Hamas hijacking aid shipments and getting rid of as much competition as possible.

If Israel lost will all the bleeding hearts be sending donations to Israel to rebuild?

Honestly, I think that Hamas will push for another war the next year. It will bring even more destruction to Gaza, probably hundreds of thousands of refugees living in tents. And then Hamas will resign from power. I wish they could just accept Israel and enter negotiations for peace now, but I am almost certain that it will take another war.

Hello
There is an interesting article in the English language edition of Der Spiegel on how the people of Gaza are feeling about Hamas:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html

Hello
There is an interesting article in the English language edition of Der Spiegel on how the people of Gaza are feeling about Hamas:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html

“If Israel lost will all the bleeding hearts be sending donations to Israel to rebuild?”

Of course not, Chas. Apparently people were very happy that Israel lost in the year 2006. 7 billion dollars from the International Community went into Lebanon for aid. ZERO dollars were given to Israel to rehabilitate its North.

Israelis reject whatever the spokesmen of the I.C. say and with good reason. They are wormtongues who do actual work for the enemy.

“It’s a rather simplistic argument that ignores the complex political situation in Gaza, the lack of serious Hamas resistance to the Israeli attack and that a lot of public perception is going to be built by how they handle this current aftermath.”

It also ignores the “Georgia” line: that the Georgains would of course patriotically rally around Saakashvilli, but turn on him later for bringing down on their heads the full force of Russian imperialism. So too, probably, with the Palestinians in Gaza (I mean, that’s likely to be one of the patterns of reaction).

Isn’t it a bit insulting to the people of Gaza to suggest that they are generally right behind Hamas’s suicidal policy of rocket attacks on Israel? ~ Bob-B

They voted for them.

It suggests that, badly weakened, Hamas fear Fatah will take the opportunity–the best they are likely to get–to turf Hamas out, or at least weaken them further ~ Dave

There is no real evidence for this. Fatah remain as ineffectual, compromised, corrupt as they were when they lost the election. They have failed to end the occupation of Palestine, and hence are withering away as a political force.

I would think if Hamas felt they had so much popular support then they wouldn’t need to murder the opposition

Why so? It’s a power struggle and each faction is seeking to shore up their respective support, whether from a position of strength (Hamas in Gaza) or weakness (Fatah in the West Bank).

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSLP674710

Dave - Definitely there is a lot of tosh being put out as “common sense” when at best it’s simplistic guess work.

The “Hamas will have won if they can launch even one rocket” and “If Hamas survive they have won” crowds are a similar example. Define the parameters of victory in advance, in these particularly cases awfully low and assume that everyone (especially the Palestinians) as a whole agrees with them. Then when their predictions come to pass it obviously must be a great boost to Hamas and a credible victory in the eyes of the people!

It’s just masturbation for people that are starry-eyed with the concept of “resistance”. It doesn’t need to bear reality to the ground just reflect their romantic narrative.

Bear, bare? Grrr. :)

Yes, common sense is what we have and the other fellow clearly lacks—or, as Gramsci says, it’s just a deeper level of unthoughtout prejudice. In this case, it takes the form of wishful thinking: projecting what you would like to be the case onto a situation that you have studied neither deeply or dispassionately enough to tell (I include myself in this, by the way: one would have to look into it in minute detail for a couple of weeks at least to say anything remotely accurate or sensible). I just don’t think you can have it both ways, as suits the “team” you’re rooting for: eg either the argument that the Georgians are likely to turn on their leaders because of a policy leading to national calamity also applies to the Palestinians, or it applies to nether of them.

I just don’t think you can have it both ways, as suits the “team” you’re rooting for.

Absolutely agree, there is plenty of duff stuff put out by everyone. Zin particularly made me think of those examples though.

As Hamas claims to love death and martyrdom does that mean they have won if they are all dead ?

Yes, a majority of the population of Gaza voted for Hamas, but I don’t think Hamas said ‘vote for us and we’ll fire rockets at Israel and you or your loved ones may well get killed when Israel responds’. It wouldn’t have been a very good election slogan.

”Why the presumption that they should they publish this second rate propaganda?’

Presumably the idea is that the Guardian only publishes first rate propaganda like Mousa Abu Marzook’s piece.’

Or fourth-rate crap like Calvin Tucker’s.

The point is that the author, Eric Lee, is NOT a Guardian blogger, and therefore to complain that didn’t publish his blog is a bit, well, nuts. This piece is nothing more than a badly written simplistic rant which contains no insights, and no fresh evidence of anything. It wouldn’t get past any professional editor. It is. Simply. Crap.

Mousa Abu Marzook represents a political movement - therefore what he has to say is newsworthy, irrespective of whether it’s propaganda or not.

Or fourth-rate crap like Calvin Tucker’s

A view not shared by the Cif editors.

Zin, so Hamas’ killing and torturing it’s political opponents is a sign of strength, popularity and just overall goodness?

Well, I recommend you follow in the footsteps of your chosen side and find a young woman to beat to death for a public display of affection, a political opponent to torture and kill and a bus full of innocents to bomb “with your pure body”. We’ll all morn your passing.

I didn’t say that, so your recommendations are irrelevant.

With reference to the supposed love all Palestinians have for Hamas (which that armchair warrior Calvin harps on about), this documentary from last April shows that they weren’t all that popular in Gaza after all:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Inside+Hamas&emb=0#

And as for now:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html#ref=rss

”Or fourth-rate crap like Calvin Tucker’s’

A view not shared by the Cif editors.’

Unfortunately not. They’ll print any old shit nowadays.

I think it would be hard to substantiate the suggestion that quality of input, or even journalistic integrity, was the basis for qualification as a Cif blogger. That would be about as plausible as claiming that membership of the royal family is strictly determined by intellectual achievement.

Zin, since your chosen side is much more of oppressive to Palestinians than Israel ever was, a progressive would want to see them destroyed.

But the word “progressive” has been hijacked by passive-aggressive wankers who feel that they can retain the moral purity of pacifism while indulging their frustration as long as they only root the losing sides in conflicts and pretend that losing equals victimhood.. Fucking morons maintain this state self-indulgent delusion by willfully swallowing propaganda to help themselves forget that there is a distinction between moral purity and fighting hopeless (and pointless not to mention harmful) battles.

Zin, so Hamas’ killing and torturing it’s political opponents is a sign of strength, popularity

In this particular situation, Hamas are able to turn the screw on Fatah because Fatah are discredited. Hamas is using the opportunity to push home its advantage. On the West Bank, the reverse is occuring: Fatah is repressing Hama. In that particular situation, it represents an act of weakness, in my view.

Of course, if you believe that Fatah has emerged strengthened from the war, and Hamas weakened, then no doubt you’ll believe the reverse. I don’t think the evidence in support of that viewpoint stacks up, and nor do most serious commentators.

and just overall goodness?

That you feel the need to invent or impute my views suggests that a) you’re dishonest, b) you’re stupid - my actual words, which don’t correspond to your allegations, are checkable above, and c) you lack confidence in your own argument.

Bob-B
26 January 2009, 1:02 pm

Yes, a majority of the population of Gaza voted for Hamas, but I don’t think Hamas said ‘vote for us and we’ll fire rockets at Israel and you or your loved ones may well get killed when Israel responds’. It wouldn’t have been a very good election slogan.

Please. The people of Gaza elected Um Nidal, whose sole claim to fame is being the mother of three young men who all died in the course of making suicide attacks on Israeli civilians and who declared she’d happily give more sons to the cause. And, at the beginning of the “calm”, a professor of political science at one of Gaza’s university predicted it wouldn’t last because, “Israel will never accept a neighbour that doesn’t accept Israel’s right to exist.”

Who do you consider a serious commenter?

With reference to the supposed love all Palestinians have for Hamas (which that armchair warrior Calvin harps on about) - sackcloth and ashes

There he goes again. Misrepresenting, twisting, lying.

Hamas won the last set of elections. This suggests that at the time of that election they were more popular (or less unpopular, if you prefer) than their principal rivals.

It does not suggest that “all” Palestinians “love” Hamas, and I did not suggest it or imply it, and nor do I believe it. And given that I have been discussing the Palestinian internal power struggle, only a moron in a hurry could arrive at such a conclusion. Step forward, sackcloth and ashes.

anon, you show yourself to be an apologist for suicide terror or at least very willing to blame Israel for it. You appear to believe that this infamy happens because the bomber is desperate. You are wrong.

Most suicide bombers are sent by Hamas, the Al Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade, and Islamic Jihad. The proclaimed goal of these groups is to eliminate Israel, which they regard as an alien, colonial entity, and to replace it with an Islamic state. The mass killings of civilians which they orchestrate are not acts of spontaneous, personal despair, but carefully planned actions designed to inflict massive violence on the Israeli people and bring about Israel’s surrender to their demands.

The culture of the “suicide martyr” is promoted by Palestinian spokesmen, in mosques, newspapers, and on websites and television. Suicide bombers have come from various sections of Palestinian society - students, graduates, security officials, teenage boys and girls, and older, well-educated professionals. Some recruits have been suffering from serious or terminal illness when they were recruited, or from psychological problems.

Recruits are deliberately targeted and groomed and are easily convinced that an act of mass killing furthers Palestinian interests, is a noble act, and that he or she will reap spiritual blessing. Above all, the recruit needs to be indoctrinated into thinking that the ends justify the means (no matter how horrendous those means are).

The ideologists who recruit and indoctrinate suicide bombers are coldly and cynically manipulative and highly determined and calculated in their actions. They are particularly skilled in spotting likely candidates, who may well already be despairing and alienated, and they deliberately exacerbate that despair and then offer suicide killing as the only way out. Women are sometimes deliberately seduced and offered a suicide killer’s death as a way of salvaging their family’s honour.

Suicide bombers need to be trained in how to wear, conceal and detonate explosive belts. Their attacks are often rehearsed in training sites. The belts they wear are often packed with screws or ball bearings to add to the suffering of the intended victims. In some attacks, they have been disguised as Israeli soldiers, or as orthodox Jews. None of this is within the prior knowledge or “spontaneous” instincts of “desperate” individuals. They are guided by experienced and ruthless bomb-making “engineers.”

Suicide attacks need to be planned and timed. Who to attack? When and how? What are the obstacles? Those who plan the suicide bombings provide the recruits with meticulous instruction on how to carry them out. These are not impulsive acts of despair, rather they are psychopathic acts of revenge .

Suicide attacks on an Israeli pizzeria, disco, pool hall, and ice-cream parlour (many other examples could be given) were not random acts based on “despair”, but pre-meditated decisions made by the bomb planners in order to inflict maximum shock and devastation on civilian Israeli society.

This Islamist death cult is reprehensible and should be named for what it is rather than excuses made for the perpetrators of it or the blame for it placed on the people it targets. There are equally desperate people all over the world who do not resort to murder by self-immolation.

William, I quite agree.

Hamas won the last set of elections. This suggests that at the time of that election they were more popular (or less unpopular, if you prefer) than their principal rivals.

If you were a democrat that would have ceased to be relevant once they canceled further elections and threw the opposition off the tops of buildings.

I wonder if Zin would support a party which brought down death and destruction on wherever he happens to live. Or is just Arabs who are supposed to be keen on this sort of thing?

In this particular situation, Hamas are able to turn the screw on Fatah because Fatah are discredited. Hamas is using the opportunity to push home its advantage. On the West Bank, the reverse is occuring: Fatah is repressing Hama. In that particular situation, it represents an act of weakness, in my view.

For you when gang H shoots at gang F it’s that gang H is strong
and when gang F shoots at gang H it’s a sign that gang H is strong.

Boggle.

I hate you for proving me right about you. You are all Hamas. Ra ra ra!

Of course, if you believe that Fatah has emerged strengthened from the war, and Hamas weakened, then no doubt you’ll believe the reverse. I don’t think the evidence in support of that viewpoint stacks up, and nor do most serious commentators.

I get an impression of what sort of person you consider “serious”.

Abu Marzook is probably quite typical of Hamas members, he’s mentally ill.

I don’t mean that in a cruel or insulting way, but say it as an honest observation. He’s clearly detached from reality, as are most of his entourage I,d imagine, and such mental alienation can only cause harm.

Your little bullet points seem to miss out the tiny fact that it is Israel occupying Palestine and not the other way round.

Gaza isn’t under occupation, unless you call being crushed under hamas’ jackboot an occupartion. Can’t you understand that even LARGE parts of the Arab world are ignoring Hamas. They’re a bunch of worthless thugs operating various protection rackets, thugs that have no game plan or permenant solutions for Gaza’s problemes.

Hamas wasn’t just attacking Fatah either. They were coercing innocent Gazans, who wanted nothing to do with the fighting, into aiding Hamas fighters in ways that put their lives at great risk. For instance, when Hamas fighter were cornered by the IDF in various buildings, they’d attempt to convince ambulance drivers and paramedics to disguise them as wounded civilisans in order to scuttle them out in the ambulance.

For the first time, SOME drivers and paramedics flatly refused.

Hating Jews, even as intense as that hate is, just isn’t worth this anymore.

Zin wrote:

“Hamas won the last set of elections. This suggests that at the time of that election they were more popular (or less unpopular, if you prefer) than their principal rivals.”

the margin of victory was about 3-4%, hardly a landslide

zin, so you are saying that CiF is indeed a closed shop, which means that comment is not free.

Comment is not free, which means that disagreement with the great god of “truth” in the printed word there is not permitted, is it?

And this article disagreed with an Islamist, and unthinking support for and giving a voice to Islamism is Comment is Free’s idee fixee, isn’t it?

Don’t you think that’s more likely to be the reason for this article being refused?

John P - Marzook, being an Islamist, is likely to believe that lying to kufr is permitted, and lying to his own people is similarly condoned in order to keep up their spirits. Because Muhammud did this, sharia permits it and we also saw evidence of it in Comical Ali’s insistance that the Iraqi troops were triumphant even as we saw American tanks in the background of the TV shot.

Unfortunately Marzook and people like him seem to believe the lies they tell, which is indeed an indication of divorcement from reality.

The mental illness is, I think, of a dual diagnosis type - a combination of malignant narcissism (the monstrous lies are to try to keep narcissistic injury at bay and the extreme violence is a reaction to that narcissistic injury which is admitted at some level) and sociopathy (these are utterly conscienceless specimens who kill their own people as easily as others might swat flies, and use those they don’t kill for their own ends, eg as human shields).

Malignant narcissists can be prone to episodes of psychosis, too.

I’ve been thinking that Hamas/MB sought to revive their ‘brand’ of violence, murder and Jew hatred after being ‘trumped’ by the vicious drama of Mumbai. The most awful thing for Hamas would be if they ceased to be viewed by the elites around the Muslim world as the sole vanguard against ZioJudoCrusadonazism. The horror and the hatred that broke into the Nariman House had to be answered by Hamas in ‘kind’. Consider they can’t criticise the murders themselves, they can only drag back anti-semites of the world via their own acts.

Merely a hypothesis

Israel’s declared war aims were to stop the rocket fire, which it has now achieved.

Interesting phrasing. Yes, a war aim was to stop rocket fire. Yes, the rocket fire has ceased. However, was the cessation a direct result military action? Only in the sense that Hamas stopped as Israel agreed to withdraw, and for tactical reasons. Israel did not knock out Hamas or its capacity to fire rockets. Hamas fired rockets immediately after the Israeli unilateral ceasefire.

So, back to a familiar situation. If Hams sticks around, Israel will have to return to negotiation to stop future attacks; deterrence alone will not work longer term. Similar to the Hez situation, Israel is back at square one. It failed to stop Hez’s capacity to launch rocket attacks, nor did it force it to disarm, and Israel had to return to negotiation over hostages.

So many more Palestinians dead; much destruction; no further forward.

This explains it all.

Our Neighbor and Why We Have to Kill Him

It is a parody trying to explain the Arab psyche and very appropriate to the ludicrous claims of Hamas.

Benji think about it this way, given that Hamas’ prestige is built on making war on Israel and their purpose is to keep war a permanent condition until God makes it possible for them to expel/slaughter the Jews, Hamas can not make peace.

From the point of view of the Israeli public the question are:
1) How much violence will hamas engage in regularly to keep up their prestige and to keep war alive. This can be largely symbolic violence like poorly aimed rockets
2) How much violence will Hamas be willing to commit eventually as they gain capability, or even aquire an occasional WMD

Think of this in game theory terms. If Israel has the forbearance that Benji demands of them, then:
1) the equilibrium level of violence inflicted on Israel will be higher
2) there may be no limit to the amout of violence they are willing to inflict when the opportunity arrives

But if Israel responds to acts of war with it’s own counter attacks
1) the equilibrium level of violence will be much lower
2) fearing truly massive retaliation, Hamas will refrain from taking opportunities to use WMDs or escalate with much better weapons.

You can wag your finger all day, Benj, but the Israeli public will always vote for less danger rather than more. Your disapproval doesn’t change the logic of the game. Game theory doesn’t bend to trolling.

‘I wonder if Zin would support a party which brought down death and destruction on wherever he happens to live.’

Calvin Tucker will support any ‘anti-imperialist’ movement from the comfort of Blighty. And if said ‘anti-imperialists’ happen to inflict death and misery on the people they are supposed to be fighting for, he won’t give a fuck.

And just to put the record straight, Hamas won 76 out of 132 seats in the Palestinian Parliamentary Elections of January 2006, but when they took power in Gaza it was through an armed coup d’etat (which actually saw people with political views similar to those of Calvin launched from rooftops by Hamas thugs, but we’ll leave that be). As my links - which Calvin is too blinkered to watch and read - suggest, Hamas has lost a lot of grass-roots support for its bloodlust and its willingness to put civilians in the firing line:

‘”I used to support Hamas because they fought for our country, for Palestine,” says [Mohamed] Sadala. Hamas stood for a new start, for an end of corruption, which had spread like cancer under the moderate Fatah. In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: “That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years.” …

I’ve changed my mind about Hamas,” Abu Abed says. “I can’t support any party that wages a war that destroys our lives.” He is particularly pained by the fact that Hamas is still selling the cease-fire as a victory.

“Who has won here?” he asks and points to the debris that was once his home.

One of his neighbors weighs in: “Many people are now against Hamas but that won’t change anything,” he says. “Because anyone who stands up to them is killed.” Since they took power Hamas has used brutal force against any dissenters in the Gaza Strip. There were news agency reports that during the war they allegedly executed suspected collaborators with Israel. The reign of terror will go on for some time, says the neighbor who doesn’t want to give his name. “There will never be a rebellion against Hamas. It would be suicide.”‘

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html

But of course, if you’re Calvin Tucker, you’ll either ignore this or rail at the fact that these people aren’t following your script. That’s what the apologists of theocratic butchers have come to nowadays.

Victory is never judged through the number of people you mow down or the houses you blow to smitherines. If that was the case, then nuking your enemy would be ideal.

Israel definitely did a lot of the ‘mowing down’ against a scantily armed imprisoned people. but it failed to achieve an end or a cessation in rocket fire - in fact, that increased during the war. It failed to bring down Hamas. It failed to take out the ledership. It failed to bring an end to the tunnel smuggling.

What it did not fail in was the slaughter of 1,300 people and the ‘near-wiping-off’ of Gaza.

Hamas on the other hand had an aim of merely defending Gaza. In the end, with hand-made weapons, Gaza did not fall. Truth be said, Israel’s military campaign was flawed from the start. It’s aim from the beginning (which changed throughout) was to end rocket attacks - to achieve military victory all it had to deliver this aim. All Hamas then had to do to break Israelis military objecive was to fire one rocket.

Still, while some may say Hamas didn’t exactly win, it is safe to say Israel definitely lost, and here’s 23 reasons:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=83141&sectionid=3510303

Josh Scholar

Do you feel that explaining it simply to Benji will have any effect?

He simply enjoys winding people up with his sanctimonious and provocative drivel. Ignore him. He won’t go away BUT, at least you will have the pleasure of knowing that he is upset because he will feel ignored.

I personally simply scroll past his posts since I cottoned on to what kind of poster he is.

Try doing the same.

Dan Hamas on the other hand had an aim of merely defending Gaza. In the end, with hand-made weapons, Gaza did not fall.

Forgive me Dan. When the ground offensive started, I remember a couple of ‘beards’ telling me that Gaza would be Israel’s graveyard. They failed sadly and nothing can hide the witnesses who have seen Hamas’s brave soldiers frantically removing their uniforms to ‘dissolve’ into the civilian population. Only to reappear AFTER Israel had withdrawn and then to re-arm and shoot unarmed people in the legs who they suspected of collaboration with Israel.

Hamas heroes.

It may take a few weeks to be more clearly seen but the PA agents will be stressing this heroics that Hamas demonstrated after ’stamping on the Tiger’s tail’. Especially the ‘glorious Hamas leaders’ who hid in deep bunkers with their families while the civilian population was left to pay the ‘blood price’ for their excesses.

For me, Israel’s efficacy in achieving its war aims will be illustrated by how long it takes Hamas to restart another one. Like how Hezbollah ‘triumphed’ in 2006 and lost 2/3 of its men but 2 1/2 years later hasn’t managed to build itself back up to a strength it feels comfortable - and these are theocratic nutjobs we’re talking about here - attacking Israel with.

Dan, rocket fire increasing DURING the fighting is the wrong measure.

Hamas has no reason not to fire WHILE it is being attacked, it is only after the fighting ends that the logic becomes:
if hamas attacks Israel it will provoke a new offensive that it can’t afford.

Of course they fire during the offensive - that is to be expected.

There was also quite a reduction in rocket fire over the course of the conflict. Probably partly due to Israeli strikes and counter-battery fire destroying stockpiles and killing crew, and partly due to Hamas stockpiles becoming depleted due to the numbers of rockets launched. Which had more impact is likely to be hard to assess at the moment.

That article makes a lot of interesting assertions without really supplying much in the way of evidence to support them. Where It does it generally seems to repeat some of the more dubious claims made by Hamas. Not much more to be expected from PressTV really.

I also think there are a couple of minor points it makes that are probably quite accurate.

Clap Hammer @ 26 January 2009, 4:25 pm

“This explains it all.

Our Neighbor and Why We Have to Kill Him

It is a parody trying to explain the Arab psyche and very appropriate to the ludicrous claims of Hamas.”

I read it and I thought it was using stateless Palestinians as a analogy for the failed project of Greater Serbia.

There were news agency reports that during the war they allegedly executed suspected collaborators with Israel.

There were no alleged executions. Whether for collaboration or for simply being a rival to Hamas, there were well documented summary executions. Hamas filmed them and aired them on HamasTV.

I find it strange that this hasn’t gotten more attention, especially by the so called human rights activists. This was previously linked in the comments, however, I do not remember who by:

http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/01/murder-of-palestinians-in-gaza.html

I find it strange that this hasn’t gotten more attention, especially by the so called human rights activists…

Ha ha! That’s because human rights for the sake of human rights has long gone out of style. Doesn’t exist anymore. Now it’s all George Galloway type wankers where prejudice comes first.

Mitnaged: two excellent posts.

Mitnaged.

Far more dangerous is the sociatal pathologies of totalitarian and millennial movements. Rather than being a personal delusion on reality, a social delusion, buttressed by community, state, press, media and other individuals, allows the perfectly ’sane and moral’ to partake in both the violence and the denial of reality. It is the ‘mass sickness’ of the crisis, the preceived downfall and thus the cargo cult, the ghost dance, that can transform anything and everything.

SocialRepublican, agreed.

Thanks, Josh

One of the things we might disagree on is I believe this sense of cataclystic decline and fiery, bloody rebirth is primarily a primordial nee anthropological process. The ideas and the forms and the narratives of this social illusion are clothes on the human condition of seeking meaning in nomic terror. These clothes have very real and at times deadly consequences and manifestations, but they rely on a wide sense of social crisis and the delusion of regeneration via heads rolling.

For instance - Forms of Marxism have been used in societies to make both neccesary and virtuous the deaths and oppression of countless millions. However, the power, the delusion and the murderous ruthlessness this discourse could inspire and legitimise came from its ability to suit a sociatal desire to make sense of the world and of society.

The Montagne were merely doctrinal and indeed anglophile Liberals. Yet they felt compelled by crisis, decline and their ideological promise of utopia to chain hundred of people together and kill them by canister shot on the streets of Lyons

Consider a counter-factual if you will. Imagine that instead of the ultra nationalists of the NSDAP, the most popular movement that had benefited the prolonged crisis of Weimar were Prodestant Supremacists. These ‘Avengers of Magdeburg’ would set out to expel and kill Catholics as their primary other, seeking to attack and weaken the Catholic nations to the south and west. Such a manifestation would be a extremely important change in History, but the crisis and the ‘thirst’ for regeneration would be the same. That was the danger, the stacked kindling. The direction of the wind and the brand of match used to light the pyre are not at the heart of the issue.

Ideology gets such murderous traction via circumstance acting thuogh man’s social and psycho-sociatal need for meaning. The Ideology does not own man, man owns ideas, creates Gods and heavens, utopias and gulags. Humanity should not be allowed so say it was ‘orders’ or ’sky-pixie’ or ‘history’ fault. It is a systemic primordial and human fault, unbound by fallacious race or transistory culture.

Vilgilance starts at home :)

zin, so you are saying that CiF is indeed a closed shop, which means that comment is not free.

Well, of course CiF decides which articles are published. However, its simply assumed that Eric’s screed was rejected on ideological grounds. But there are pro-Israel articles on CiF. Lee did not do himself any favours when he wrote absolute crap about the Second World War, the same easily refutable bilge offered by Netanyahu.

CiF has no obligation to print utter shit by someone who is happy to repeat Likud boilerplate. You got to draw the line somewhere.

but the Israeli public will always vote for less danger rather than more.

This carnage will not not make anyone more safe - Israelis or Palestinians. Israel continues to kill Palestinians in large numbers and then goes back to square one. But if Barak kills Palestinians his and the Labour Party’s approval ratings go up. When he stops, Labour’s ratings sink.

At HP, and out of the mouths of Judaic clerics and Israeli politicians, there are always calculations that the next slaughter, the next collective punishment, will being the silence of the graveyard to enable Israel can carry on building on the West Bank undisturbed.

Israel does not require peace - it requires silence.

Dan posted:

“Still, while some may say Hamas didn’t exactly win, it is safe to say
Israel definitely lost”

Yup Israel lost. In fact it has lost all of it’s wars according to that article since it hasn’t achieved ‘peace’ with all it’s neighbors.

It certainly lost the 2006 Hezbollah war and its deterrence value.
We know that to be true because during the Gaza War Hezbollah launched thousands of it’s missles against Northern Israel. It’s just
that the Israeli controlled press throughout the world was afraid to
publish that story.

Sleep well … Mommy will tell you another Fairy Tale tonight!

At HP, and out of the mouths of Judaic clerics and Israeli politicians, there are always calculations that the next slaughter, the next collective punishment, will being the silence of the graveyard to enable Israel can carry on building on the West Bank undisturbed.

Oh those poor Nazis, sent to the silence of the grave simply for those home-made firecrackers, the V-1. Has Britain apologized for that horrible war crime yet?

This carnage will not not make anyone more safe…

Please reread my post where I talked about the amount of violence that Hamas will be willing to inflict on Israel in the future, both as an equilibrium and as the maximum - the spectacular terrorist attacks that are possible.

Seriously, you seem to be entirely lacking in the ability to analyze the situation properly. You would fail a class in game theory.

Josh

Yeah, yeah, I know the mantra. We keep hearing what this or that is going to do to Israel, if this or that had this or that, or did this and that. We keep hearing how terrible those rotten Muslim are; but year in, year out, it’s the Israelis that kill and destroy much more.

Piles of dead Palestinians and rubble pile up around Israel. Israel destroys swathes and the EU helpfully puts up the buildings again for the Israelis to demolish a few years later, as well known far leftist Chris Patten wryly notes today in the Guardian. Perhaps its one grand construction industry scam.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/27/gaza-israel-hamas-eu-us

Israel’s absurd behaviour is perfect for political satire.

None of what you’re saying is at all relevant to my analysis. Shrug. One wonders if you’re capable of thought.

Well, I must admit the ‘Guardian’ still has some standards, because they refused to give Benjamin Mackie a job.

Yes, I was making a separate point. I fucking bother addressing yours, Josh.

I fucking bother addressing yours, Josh.

So to sum up, you denounce my logic without ever addressing it in the slightest and when this is repeatedly pointed out you write a single, completely incoherent and meaningless sentence. As I said, one wonders if you’re capable of thought.

Also since my analysis shows refutes your “constant drumbeat” of “This carnage will not not make anyone more safe - Israelis or Palestinians, ” and you refuse to address my refutation, I have to conclude that you are a deliberate liar. You can not defend your statement and refuse to try.