Harry's Place

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, David. I hadn’t heard about this latest boycott. What a nasty bunch of ‘moderates’ they are.

Hi Chas,

loved your

http://blog.newkey-burden.com/2009/01/menachem-begin.html

‘One of the most memorable experiences of my second trip to Israel was visiting the Menachem Begin Heritage Centre in Jerusalem. Begin was the most wonderful man and my favourite ever Israeli.’

and even better…

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2373752729473272070&postID=1423478444269170462

‘Jabotinsky said…

Chas, I hope you will oppose the ban on Mosher Feiglin entering Britain. His politics seem pretty close to yours. Isn’t it just New Labour, New Anti-Semitism to keep him out?

21 January 2009 12:18
Blogger Chas Newkey-Burden said…

I certainly do oppose the ban and if you can show me the most effective ways to express that opposition I would appreciate it.’

The thing I really don’t understand is the relentless drum of Muslims equating the Israeli actions in Palestine with the Holocaust.

The Nazis launched into the task of eliminating European Jewry. They made a start in the mid 1930s, but it took a time to industrialise and the really extensive killing didn’t start until 1943. Over the course of the twelve years of Hitler’s reign, a large proportion of Jews in Europe died, up to 95% in countries where the gentile population collaborated most enthusiastically.

All this, for the greater part, while the economy that was carrying out the killing was at war on two fronts with the world’s three largest armies plus assorted allies, was being bombed every night by the world’s two largest air forces and was blockaded by the world’s two largest navies. And, of course, when in desperate need of labour to stoke their war machine, they still not merely devoted resources to the killing, but killed labour that could have built weapons instead.

Argue about the complicity of the German population at large all you like: there’s no doubt that the German leadership really wanted to kill Jews, even at the expense of losing the war.

And so to Israel. Its detractors accuse it of having the fourth largest Army in the world, which is manifest nonsense, but it’s reasonable to say that quantity multiplied by quality leaves it looking pretty good. It has no credible military opponents, it is regularly equipped with the latest toys from the US toyshop, except when it builds its own to a similar or higher quality. Its economy is buoyant, its leadership able to execute its desires.

And yet, after forty or more years, depending on when you figure the start date, it has totally failed to conduct an effective genocide.

If the Israeli government is really the preserve of eliminations who want to recreate the Warsaw ghetto in Gaza, what’s been stopping them? It’s not the Hamas paramilitary: all Israel would need to do would be to shell Gaza into the stone age from twenty miles away. It’s not the students occupying lecture theatres: how many divisions have they got? It’s not international opinion: the Muslim world hates them anyway, the west (largely) supports them anyway.

All one can think is that Israel in fact _doesn’t_ want to kill Palestinians in industrial quantities. But then, where does that leave the MCB?

I wish more moderates would speak up, or at least that groups of moderates would form, be given gov’t monies the way the MCB is subsidised, and speak out lOUDLY

Canada has successfully cultivated moderates and even though they AND their families have been threatened, they still speak up, they challenge the extremists, and they provide alternate points of view.

The MCB claims to represent some 500 different muslim groups across the UK, yet I bet that the active membership in all 500 groups put together is probably no more than a few thousand individuals, every one of ‘em an extremist.

There is a whole consituency that hasn’t any voice, and these representative groups that claim to speak for everyone speak for no one but themselves.

Mr Angry, the Muslim Council of Britain are not, however much they might like to claim it, at all representative of British Muslims.
John P, the government has stopped funding the MCB.

It matters not a jot.

Because it is widely believed, among a good proportion of this country’s intelligensia, that such a Holocaust is proceeding.

Argue about it as much as you want. But, frankly, you will persuade very few.

Screw them. They show who they really are by their actions.

Watch this space! Next year they will be inventing the “Gaza Holocaust Memorial Day” alternative to attend until infinity, so making sure they will never acknowledge HMD.

HMD is about The Holocaust, Rwanda and Cambodia, Bosnia and Darfur Genocides. After the govt asked a collective of Muslim leaders to advise it after 7/7 one of their leaked recommendations was to drop HMD because it was ‘offensive to Muslims” http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article565335.ece

Anyone got a sister, unmarried, with an American passport. I feel an urgent need to emigrate or seek asylum to save myself from the way this country is going.

Good Job! We now officially and forever more unto the end of time equate Islam with neo nazis. Now tell me all about their insipid plans for reconciliation?

If they can equate the actions of Israel with the genocide of 6m people before Israel existed then its clear that its Jews they hate and not Israelis.

The fact that the MCB no longer receives government support and is backed by single figure percentages of British Muslims (I can’t find the figures online to back this up but I have seen them before) does leave me thinking that it wouldn’t really matter that it’s behaving disgustingly over the Holocaust Memorial Day if it weren’t for the addiction many in the media seem to have to asking its opinion on any matters related to Muslims in the UK.

“If they can equate the actions of Israel with the genocide of 6m people before Israel existed then its clear that its Jews they hate and not Israelis.”

It is written in their scriptures.

If they can equate the actions of Israel with the genocide of 6m people before Israel existed then its clear that its Jews they hate and not Israelis.

Let there never be a question ever again.

A mate of mine was trying to organise an anti-NF demo in the north of England back in the late 1980s. What he really wanted to do was to get some of the local politically uninvolved Muslim lads involved: instead of the usual white student types.

He was told, to his face, by one Muslim guy that he wouldn’t take part because

“The NF are right about Hitler”.

Now, not all Muslims feel this way by any means. However, I would suspect that this is precisely what a good proportion of Islamists do think.

The thing I really don’t understand is the relentless drum of Muslims equating the Israeli actions in Palestine with the Holocaust.

Truly there is no precendent for it.

None at all.

It’s a complete mystery.

Really it is.

It’s like people have trivialized the Holocaust, or something.

I’m still trying to work out when the Holocaust stopped being a really really tremendously awful thing that happened to us, and started being a great big stick for people to hit us with. I’ve been trying to think of another ethnic group that is consistently accused of milking a major genocide that was visited upon them within living memory, but so far I’m drawing a blank.

“I’m still trying to work out when the Holocaust stopped……”

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2287/pub_detail.asp

I went through the school textbooks taught in Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Here is an English translation of some passages from these books.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Sami/Saudi-Textbooks-Hatred-Violence.htm

Of course the MCB and the likeminded don’t want to mark HMD. That might lead to some uncomfortable recollections and questions:

http://www.amazon.com/Among-Righteous-Stories-Holocausts-Reach/dp/B000WCTRUK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233000708&sr=1-1

Katy Newton, that’s because the Muslims want the genocide completed. You can’t recognize that a genocide was a horrible crime if you intend to complete it.

folk

usual smears

teacup

be back soon

“because the Muslims ”

What, all the Muslims? Even my mates? Even the people who leak stuff to Harry’s Place? My colleagues at work? Muslim friends who came to my wedding?

Is that really what they’re up to?

Or is it just the scum.

HP has said on a few occasions that it tries to distinguish between the actions and beliefs of radical Islamists and every day Muslims.

It seems like its difficult to do.

The event of Gaza seems to have stopped many Muslims from sitting on the fence.,

I reference the number of Muslim callers to recent phone-in’s who seem to believe Jews control everything. Worrying!

I wonder if there’s a correlation between the number of survivors left, and the amount of utter tosspots coming out of the woodwork with “Holocaust! Holocaust! Holocaust! Why is it ALWAYS about the fucking Holocaust?” and stuff.

Is it so wrong to say “because the Muslims” when various versions of the Hadith of the stones calling for genocide against the Jews is in Bakari many times. 4 times? 6 times?

Katy Newton, that’s because the Muslims want the genocide completed.

Oh, the irony. One of the things I hate about the appropriation of Holocaust imagery and the term “genocide” is the way people misuse both all over the place, and there you are doing exactly the same thing. I don’t for a moment believe that that’s what “the Muslims” want, or what the majority of “the Muslims” want. I was commenting in the context of the MCB’s highly predictable boycott of Holocaust Day and the way they justify it, but that’s just them. They aren’t “all Muslims”, whatever they’d like to believe. It happens that in real life no Muslim that I have met has ever drawn that comparison to my face, but quite a lot of white English people have. And I didn’t think that any of them “wanted the genocide completed” either, although I did think that they were being offensive and ignorant.

I reference the number of Muslim callers to recent phone-in’s who seem to believe Jews control everything.

You have to start with the premise that 80% of people who phone in are extrovert nutters, though, don’t you?

Islamists note the urge to find moderate Muslims and are learning how to fake moderation. Over time, their camouflage will undoubtedly further improve.

Figuring out who’s who is a high priority. It may be obvious that Osama bin Laden is Islamist and Irshad Manji anti-Islamist, but plenty of Muslims are in the murky middle. An unresolved debate has raged for years in Turkey whether the current prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, is an Islamist or not.

The task of identifying true moderates cannot be done through guesswork and intuition; for proof, note the American government’s persistent record of supporting Islamists by providing them with legitimacy, education, and (perhaps even) money. I too have made my share of mistakes. What’s needed is serious, sustained research.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2226

Genocide against the Jews is popular enough that former President Mathir of Indonesia made a speech calling for it. When the president of a country is calling for genocide, it must be popular. The form of that speech was so amazing. You probably remember it. He railed against the concept of “human rights” as a lie an conspiracy invented by Jews to fool people into thinking that killing Jews is a bad thing O.o

“It happens that in real life no Muslim that I have met has ever drawn that comparison to my face,…”

I guess it depends on exposure, in my case, it has quite a few times.

“President Mathir of Indonesia” should have been “of Malaysia”

I guess it depends on exposure

It probably does. But would you say that those people who drew the comparison to your face were doing so because they wanted all Jews dead?

Yes

Talking of Mahathir`s Malaysia here`s something that should be of interest:

“Dato’ Seri Najib kicked the ball first to insist to insist none should openly debate if Muslims could slander the followers of other religions,..
Non-Malays living in the vicinity of mosques in Kuala Lumpur hear this call to arms against the non-Muslims through high-pitches megaphones often enough..”
http://newskini.serveftp.net/mgg-pillai-view-2049.html

There are of course no jews in Malaysia these days, they all moved to Singapore.

halbhalbhalb, dohhh! You are right.

The first Muslim I ever met volunteered to my face that all Jews like myself should be killed. Out of the fucking blue, really.

I hadn’t actually said anything to him, I had simply placed a coke on the counter and waited for him to ring it up.

Josh wrote: “Is it so wrong to say “because the Muslims” when various versions of the Hadith of the stones calling for genocide against the Jews is in Bakari many times. 4 times? 6 times?”

it is, because it is essentalising, over generalising, etc

remember how some people always talk about “the Americans” as if they are all one lump, one homogeneous mass, rather then 300+ million people with a WIDE range of views, some extreme, some not, but all different

so if it is wrong and silly to generalise about THE Americans (or any other group of people), then the same holds true of the 1.8 Billion Muslims in the world, logically speaking that is

Is it so wrong to say “because the Muslims” when various versions of the Hadith of the stones calling for genocide against the Jews is in Bakari many times. 4 times? 6 times?

I offer a parallel that the Talmud has some outrageous things to say – but 90% of Jews have never opened The Talmud (I suspect). At least 90% of Jews outside the orthodox community.

So, you can’t say “All Jews” when tagging something nasty from The Talmud.

However, it is demonstrable that the racist and antisemitic parts of the Koran are often spouted and used to arouse hate. I believe that many of the Muslim radicals demonstrating about Gaza harbour core antisemitic beliefs.

Maybe its because there are 1.8bn of them that there is plenty of opportunity to find a Muslim preaching hate, whereas with 13m Jews you aren’t going to find much fundamentalist Talmud being preached.

David, I can’t say that I am surprised. It still begs the question of what Gaza and Israel have to do with remembering that European Jews were massacred before the advent of the state of Israel just because they were Jews.

This is proof positive, if any were needed, that Israel-hatred and Jew-hatred by Islamists and their fellow travellers are one and the same.

Katy Newton, I am getting rather tired of moderate Muslims’ complicity by their deafening silence in the face of the hate speech and incitement of their more vociferous and extreme brethren.

halbhalbhalb, quite so, but where to begin such research? I believe that we have to be very careful not to be sucked into the confusion which is deliberately created around this.

I hadn’t actually said anything to him, I had simply placed a coke on the counter and waited for him to ring it up.

What, on the “Jewish Piano”? Hope it wasn’t a Pepsi (”‘Pay Every Penny to Save Israel’)

(old antisemitic motif from the days of mechanical cash registers, in case you hadn’t heard of it)

The Jewish Piano. Now that’s funny.

A polite request – when pruning, could the message-shell be left? It’s a bit like listening to Matthew chat away to Chocky at times.

I wonder if there’s a correlation between the number of survivors left, and the amount of utter tosspots coming out of the woodwork with “Holocaust! Holocaust! Holocaust! Why is it ALWAYS about the fucking Holocaust?” and stuff.

BISSLI

I don’t think it’s the main force. There’s plenty of anecdotal and recorded evidence that this was going on in the 70s and 80s – often related to Tony Greenstein. What’s changed is the Internet which has put the nutters in touch with each other.

Ah yes, the internet, both a curse and a blessing.

The holocaust was a devestating period in recent history. I am saying this as a devout Muslim. If you look into Islamic History, jews and Muslims luved side by side, under the Islamic Caliphate. Jews were given the right to exist as a respected ethnic community (the ‘People of the Book’ as mention in the Qur’an) and had the right to govern themselves. A right Jews could not even dream of enjoying during centuries of persecution in the muslim world.

However, i seem to become greatly frustrated by the fact that the holocaust is used as an excuse for the murderous crimes perpertrated by the terrorist state of Israel. I feel it is an insult to the memory of the million of innocent jews who died at the hands of the nazis, that today their descendants plummet the earth with bloodshed and tyranny. They have turned the gaza strip into an open prison, a children slaughter house, an area of ethnic cleansing and the beginning of a post WW2 arab holocaust. It is a shame. The same One God who both Jews and Muslims believe in will not stand by this injustice.

May God Almighty establish peace and justice on this earth and guide us to His true obedience.

*sorry meant to write ‘persecution in europe’ at the end of first paragraph.

God bless

ry meant to write ‘persecution in europe’ at the end of first paragraph.”

No need to apologise Colin, it was merely a Freudian slip.

Aw Colin, you started that so nicely..if only you had stopped after the first sentence..

Jews were given the right to exist as a respected ethnic community (the ‘People of the Book’ as mention in the Qur’an) and had the right to govern themselves.

You are flat-out deluded.

The second class place afforded by Shariah law to Jews does not even remotely qualify as “respected.” It was scarcely better than Jim Crow. And the comparison to Europe is offensive, but I should thank you for it, because it makes a very good case for that third alternative Jews have sought in recent decades. What’s that word? Oh, right..

Starts with a Zed.

Bravo to MCB,

Well done for standing up to these neo-zio-nazis.
If what is happening to the palestinians is not a holocaust and a genoside, then their is no other holocaust worth mentioning. Especially when those who suffered in WW2 are the very babaric, invading transgressors.

And by the the i am Jew, who is againt isreali agression. FREEDOM for PALESTINE.

Sure, Bill. You’re absolutely right.

Colin, you really shouldn’t believe everything you read.
I don’t know where you got that ‘information’ about Gaza, but it’s quite simply untrue.
Open your eyes and go and look for the truth yourself instead of blindly believing what others write or say.
You might find a whole new world out there.

Bill and Colin same person? Maybe?

Bissli, hope your not playying snaps!

Bissli, not meaning to be churlish, but I am also slightly suspicious at a “devout Muslim” who would appear to have retained a ‘Christian’ name. Er, Bill, check up on why the M.C.B. initially boycotted it.

I’m suspicious of Bill, he claims to be a Jew, but my Jew-dar aint buying it.

Oh, I didn’t see that. Yes, that is as implausible as a vegan Reubens sandwich.

Also, having checked the “About the Genocides” section of the H.M.D. site, and seeing which mass-killing of a population is immediately discussed, I am more convinced than ever that The Hasbara Buster is one lying piece of work.

…Always look on the bright side of life……

At least they re not celebrating the Holocaust…yet.

Perhaps because it is hard to celebrate something which you deny.

But if it is about Gaza (like anybody with a brain knows not to be the case)

Then why did the MPAcUK send funds to David Irving?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/19/secondworldwar.religion

When I debated with some Islamic fanatics at the Guardian the pattern was usually them considering the Holocaust as some sacred Jewish icon or monument. They have absolutely no understanding of what that was all about and those are the “friendly ones”.

After all didn’t Islam come to be from a massacre of Jews in Medina?

Oups….I can go to jail in Holland for saying this……

I’m always reminded of a line from that great movie, The Believer (Ryan Gosling), where he asks his skinhead buddies “If the holocaust never happened, why is Hitler such a great man?”

Hot Dog, Ernst Lubitsch’s To Be or Not to Be was funnier, I thought.

Some of my remarks in this thread were a bit out of line.

I got 6 hours sleep in the last two days… I wasn’t writing well.

Colin,

You make a fine beginning. Why don’t you tell us in your own words what it was about the Holocaust that made it so devastating? So we can see what you understand of it.

As a devout Muslim, perhaps you can also give us your thoughts on how it might have felt, throughout Islamic history, to a non-Muslim such as me to live in theocratic societies where ultimate authority was by definition out of my grasp. Where the upper reaches of government (and sometimes the lower reaches too, depending on the mood of the day) were closed to me. Where the treatment I could expect solely by virtue of being a Jew rested, without recourse, on the whim of my Muslim betters. Would I have found that hunky dory, do you suppose? If present day Muslims in the countries of the west, with nominal equality under the law and freedom of religion, speech and thought, feel alienated and discriminated against, how might I have felt under the Caliphate?

Finally, perhaps you could point to some instances of Israel, or just plain Jews, using the Holocaust to justify acts of murder.

Paul M. As a devoutly gullible idiot could you please explain to me how you have not managed to form the opinion that ‘colin’ is,in fact a sock-puppet-straw-man,rather than a devout muslim.

Excellent article from Holocaust Summit about how Gaza has legitimised equating Nazis to Jews

Porat, an international authority on anti-Semitism and head of Tel Aviv University’s research body on this phenomenon, added that Operation Cast Lead has “left no doubt” that Muslims in Europe had, “prepared in advance a public campaign against Jews and Israel, which they see as one and the same.”

“[Muslims] were waiting for a signal or a pretext to launch this campaign and the Nazism comparison,” she said.

This tactic, she elaborated, proved most effective when Europeans from the left wing “worked in unison” with Muslims.

“Europeans are burdened by the Holocaust, and accusing the victims of being like the Nazis helps distribute some of the burden and guilt,” Porat told the 500 people who came to the event, at the Inbal Hotel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059089.html

“I suspect that the MCB committee is torn between those who see HMD as a day of solemn reflection on the tragic failure of Hitler to exterminate all the world’s Jews, and those who would like to sing, dance, and hand out sweet pastries to celebrate their joy at the partial success of the endeavour.”

LOL. Sweet pastries are very important.

To be fair, full-on Middle Eastern denial works on three levels:

1. It didn’t happen. It is a Zionist conspiracy to take control of the world through guilt.

2. It happened, but the Zionists were to blame. The Jews did it to themselves as part of the Zionist conspiracy to …. zzzzzzzzzz

3. It didn’t happen, but we wish it did.

The tricky thing is to believe all three levels at once.

As well as sweet pastries, the historical perception of Amin Husseini, the leader of the Palestinian cause from the ’20s to the ’60s, is also very important.

While many commenters on this site will remember him for his avuncular table talk with Hitler during the war, for his major war crimes in Bosnia and for his constant poisoning throughout his life of the possibility of Muslim-Jewish dialogue and understanding, I would guess that the MCB, and Hamas, and Fatah, remember him as a great Muslim hero who wouldn’t bow to imperialism.

And one or two lefties too. I remember a far left guy at University who was convinced that he was a kind of Palestinian Che Guevara (doh, that’s Arafat, surely) and kept a large picture of him on his door.

I guess that he’d have been shyer about putting up a poster of Goering, but who knows?

Personally, I’m so fed up with the self-appointed MCB that I struggle to see it as a shame that they’re boycotting HMD.

halbhalbhalb

The task of identifying true moderates cannot be done through guesswork and intuition; for proof, note the American government’s persistent record of supporting Islamists by providing them with legitimacy, education, and (perhaps even) money. I too have made my share of mistakes. What’s needed is serious, sustained research.

I have played in my thoughts with the ‘moderate’ adjective when describing Muslims.

What does it mean???

In some measurable answer.

I was amused to see that MPACUK are not impressed!

“The MCB the most useless of all Mosque umbrella groups as usual spouted off about Israel not once condemning their stupid 400 or so mosques for sitting on their backside while Israel dominated political circles while their mosques told the Muslims ‘no politics in the mosque’.”

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5294/102/#jreactions

Colin,

hmmmm except for all those hundreds of little jihads you boys like so much. Guess who was the target of those. From the C7th to the C20th Jihad meant killing the Jews. On occasion it was a rationale for the enslaving of black Africans and white Europeans too. I bet your new pals never mentioned that ‘respectful’ slave-trade.

Nevermind Obama too seems not to have heard of the centuries of gelding of black men and raping black women that were justified by a distortion of the biblical Ham narrative by Arab intellectuals.

You also seem blissfully unaware that in the last sixty years Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Muslim lands. A bit of blow-back there that has led to them becoming heavily armed and not to impressed by arrogant Muslim condescension. They wont wait around while Muslims get ready for Holocaust 2.

BTW you dont seem to know what the Holocaust actually means. Deportation meant death, or slave labour if you were lucky, and not being hered into and then confined to camps created by your own people and living off billions in handouts from the West and UN which then sustains a population explosion. You might want to crack a history book before making mendacious comparisons.

The Palestinians have only had a very light introduction to the Jewish experience of the last two thousand years under their largesse.

Bissli, you seem to be one of those who cannot think out side the box. Dont be surprised NOT all Jews are Zionist. In fact there is no doctrinal evidence calling for a Zionist state from my faith. I presume your are one of those Zionist, who go around labeling Jews who adhere the teaching of the Torah, as traitors. Well no one has given you that authority, God has not, and certainly i have not. You have no right to question integrity my faith! Your type make the enemy hate us and brings to our community more pain.

You would be disappointed to know that there are more of my kind out there, to give you a taster… look at the wise words of his eminence Rabbi Yosef Rozen of Dvinsk, known as The Rogatchover, who wrote in his famous letter;
“Heaven forbid that we should test God and strive with him concerning the length of the Exile in order to be masters in the Holy Land.
To those who share these Zionist views but profess to be believers, whose lips drip with Torah and piety, I have this to say: Do you not know that Zionism and self-rule are VANITY AND PURSUIT OF EMPTINESS AND IMITATION? Why do you despise the Torah and stretch out your hand to transgressors tainted with HERESY, and why do you not consider in whose company you go?”

visit: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Wake up to the real world!
JEWS SAY: FREE PALESTINE, NO to ZIONISM

There are some progressive or liberal Muslim groups active in UK – unfortunately, not as many as in North America.

Take a look at the MPAC forum sometime and watch the short-trousered, henna-bearded “bruvvers” get themselves into a typically inarticulate, illiterate tizz whenever some liberal or otherwise progressive Muslim dares challenge the brain-dead dogmas of the keyboard jihadi.

Lately, the funniest example was when “der bruvvers” were challenged to explain why they hated the Quilliam Foundation so… answer there was none. They “just did”.

Cretins.

So Bill – if the day ever comes and you are hunted down in Europe by murderous facists – you won’t be hopping on a plane to safe refuge in Tel Aviv then?
And just as a matter of interest – so what do YOU say on Seder night instead of ‘BaShana HaBa’a BeYerushaliam HaBnuya’?