Harry's Place

I like the idea of an expiry date on Hamasness! Great post, Brett.

Palestinians in human rights organisations are reluctant to speak publicly about what is a sensitive issue

And I think we can safely say that the same applies to UN staff based in Gaza.

No better than the Mugabe regime. Can you imagine marches and riots in the UK in support of Mugabe?

We’re all Hezbollah now.

We’re all Hamas now.

Is it all about ‘H’?

Well, I’m game: We’re all Harry’s Place now!

What took HP so long to bring this up? I read about this several days ago.

I read about this in Harrys Place several days ago.

It’s probably not rational – it’s rather, what the late Nye Bavan called “emotional spasm” – in general people only retract on gorunds of reason what they assert on grounds of reason. Otherwise they remain in denial – which is just what the “We are all Hamas” bozos probably will whatever evidence is put before them

I read a bad news story about Muslims in Harry’s Place every day

I read a bad news story about Muslims in Harry’s Place every day

Well give us some good news stories – choose from Afghanistan; Iraq; Kashmir….

not forgetting?

“”Today, Hamas gangs are unleashed like packs of animals on the streets of Gaza against Fatah members. Because the military bases and the prisons have been destroyed, they have turned Gaza schools, Al-Nasser Hospital, the radiology department at Shifa’ Hospital, Al-Aqsa University, and other places, including mosques, into centers for the detention, interrogation, and torture of Fatah members and members of other national Palestinian factions. ”

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP221709

“I read a bad news story about Muslims in Harry’s Place every day”

Are the victims of Hamas’s terror government not Muslims? I think Hamas is bad news for Muslims.

This is potentially a good news story, Zin, if you do your bit to show your comrades that Hamas are the torturers and murderers of Muslim people: not their saviours.

How about writing a piece on that?

Are the victims of Hamas’s terror government not Muslims?

Not when Hamas Kills. When Hamas kill muslims they do so because those Muslims are traiters to Islam, bourgeois reactionary pigs collaborating with the brutal imperialist ‘oppressor’, and having the audacity to shave.

Israeli soldiers use civilian houses for military purposes.

I wish the kind of Europeans who shout “we are all Hamas (or Hizbullah) now” would be put off by clear (and non-Israeli) reports of Hamas using human shields and terrorizing their own population.

However I suspect that the armchair revolutionaries and aggressive anti-Israeli marchers in democratic countries, where they have enormous leeway to protest, will view any Palestinians shot by Hamas as traitors and collaborators. Let’s face it, for a certain personality type, armed “militants” are a whole lot more glamourous and a cause worthy of identification, than farmers or anyone else who might just want to get on with their lives and leave the Jihad to another time…

Israeli soldiers take over a house and hold its residents hostage as they use the building for military purposes:

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/another-crack-in-media-wall.html

Israeli soldiers blow up a door injuring the woman behind, then let her die as they use the house for military purposes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&feature=related

Thank you, Brett, for clarifying that, according to these actions, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is a regime of terror.

Are You Tube videos in the spam filter?

Brett

I think we have established that Hamas are really horrible people. We can all agree.

Let’s all sagely nod our heads together.

There. Feel better?

There trouble is, you offer no solution. Israel has just spent three weeks playing with its American toys trying to defeat Hamas, disarm it and changed the rules of the game – or whatever hackneyed phrase it used. It failed.

Hamas needs to be defeated on a political level. Military attempts to deal with either increase its support or barbarity.

So, buddy, what’s the next move? It’s back to chess.

Furrow your brow and place your piece.

“Hoho! Spain to indict Israeli war criminals

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/Audiencia/investiga/ministro/israeli/crimenes/guerra/elpepunac/20090130elpepinac_8/Tes

Soon they may never leave Israel (and maybe the US).

14 civilians dead? they were like ants to Israel, determined to walk the sidewalk, did they get leaflets? of course not, these are just PR stunts.”

Everytime I want to consider the morality of the actions of a country at war, I invariably ask myself “what would Spain do?”

I hope Israel will now start delving into the disappearances and killings from the Civil War onwards and put a few Spaniards on trial to see what happens. I think Spaniards who think their courts really have the right to judge the rest of the World might have cause to rethink. Of course Spain has form when it comes to putting the Jews on trial.

As has been pointed endlessly, Spain and other European countries would have done what Israel does against Hamas, probably sooner. Arab countries under constant attack over their border would have done far worse. Only Israel ever gets criticised though. Why is that, then?

The Hasbara Buster, two points:

(1) Who has a greater duty of care towards you and your family, foreign soldiers or your own government?

(2) There is a vast difference between soldiers engaged in a fire fight occupying a civilian house in the middle of hostilities; and occupying a civilian house before hostilities begin in order to store weapons and to launch rockets with the intention of making the house, including its occupants, a target of return fire, once hostilities have been successfully provoked.

“Hamas needs to be defeated on a political level.”

How do the Israelis vote them out then? An alliance with Shas?

Israeli soldiers use civilian houses for military purposes.

Can’t find anything in the post you can actually take issue with then?

Folks are only Hamas when Hamas are killing Jews.

Anyway. Just type in “Video Israel Doesn’t Want You to See” on your web searcher and be sure to watch a video in which Israeli soldiers blow up the door of a house seriously injuring the woman inside and let her die as they use the building for military purposes.

But only Hamas’ use of houses for military purposes is to be condemned. Not only hate, but also hypocrisy is a two-way street in the Middle East.

Sometimes things are better said in french.

http://www.pointdebasculecanada.ca/spip.php?article872

The Palestininans created, applauded and supported Hamas for years when it was attacking Israelis. What happened to them is the same that happened to the good Dr Frankenstein. The monster got out of control.

There is a vast difference between soldiers engaged in a fire fight occupying a civilian house in the middle of hostilities

The Israeli soldiers in the first video I linked to occupied a house in totally peaceful times and held its population hostage as they used the house for surveillance purposes when NOBODY was shooting at them.

Who has a greater duty of care towards you and your family, foreign soldiers or your own government?

Review your Geneva convention. The occupying power is responsible for the occupied population’s safety. (My examples were from occupied West Bank, not from Gaza.)

How do the Israelis vote them out then?

No dumbo, you construct a political situation that appeals to Palestinian moderates, like parts of Fatah, parts of Hamas, the Palestinian National Initiative, independents etc., rather than perpetuating a situation that appeals to zealots.

“Hamas needs to be defeated on a political level. “

Yes, and that starts with isolating them politically, particularly on the international stage, rather than fêting them.

“But only Hamas’ use of houses for military purposes is to be condemned. Not only hate, but also hypocrisy “

Where’s the hypocrisy, Hasbara, even the Israeli Military condemned the incident in the video. The video even shows that some soliers at the scene were distressed by the incident. Unlike the Hamas actions, this is clearly not IDF policy.

Now enough whataboutery. What do you think about what Hamas is clearly doing?

“No dumbo, you construct a political situation that appeals to Palestinian moderates, like parts of Fatah, parts of Hamas, the Palestinian National Initiative, independents etc., rather than perpetuating a situation that appeals to zealots.”

You mean the ones who are currently being murdered, maimed and jailed by Hamas?

“Review your Geneva convention. The occupying power is responsible for the occupied population’s safety. (My examples were from occupied West Bank, not from Gaza.)”

Oh, I see you point. Because the enemy treat you badly, it excuses your own side treating you worse. Yes. That makes sense.

PlumStupid
30 January 2009, 1:49 pm

No better than the Mugabe regime. Can you imagine marches and riots in the UK in support of Mugabe?

No marches perhaps, Plum, but they’ll likely make excuses for the dear “old warrior against apartheid Rhodesia” which is likely what they’ll say on behalf of Hamas — either that Israeli oppression drove them to be what they are today or that Israel nurtured Hamas as an opposition movement to Fatah, failing completely to appreciate that Hamas is only the Palestinian brand of the Muslim Brotherhood, which originated in Egypt in 1928 because of the collapse of the Calliphate.

Benji

There trouble is, you offer no solution. Hamas has just spent three weeks playing with its Iranian toys trying to defeat Israel, and changed the rules of the game – or whatever hackneyed phrase it used. It failed.

It isn’t going to get its Caliphate.

So how do you propose to teach Hamas the lesson that it must stop trying to use military force to achieve its goals?

How do you propose encouraging Hamas to accept that it will never have “from the river to the sea”?

Hamas needs to be defeated on a political level

Hamas will only meaningfully engage on a political level when it thinks it has no other options i.e. has been defeated militarily or its Iranian backers no longer back it.

Engaging Hamas in any other circumstance is folly and will only increase the likelihood of violence.

Sometimes things are better said in french.

Even when the French is a translation and the original is in Anglais?

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2009/01/15/politics-demonstrations-against-israels-offensive-gaza

The Political Option:

Hamas: “We will kill you and drink the blood of your children and of Jews everywhere. We love death as you love life.”

Israel: “If you could just stop with the rockets and mortars on our population for a second, perhaps we could talk about this over some felafel?”

Cue rocket and mortar barrage soon followed by the sound of F16s and helicopter gunships.

See, it does not really work unless both parties are interested in talking.

You mean the ones who are currently being murdered, maimed and jailed by Hamas?

Yes, exactly. Of course, I wonder what has created that situation? Israel’s failed war perhaps, that’s created a worse situation of panic, confusion and crisis that appeals to greater zealotry – you know that military operation heralded as the solution, to change the rules of the game, to disarm Hamas etc etc.

You are so blind aren’t you Brett?

Benjamin,

“dumbo”?

How stupid do I feel for posting last week that you had never insulted me personally…I feel used and dirty (and not in a good way.)

Of course, I wonder what has created that situation? Israel’s failed war perhaps, that’s created a worse situation of panic, confusion and crisis that appeals to greater zealotry

Yeah, but they also killed 100 Fatah activists during the weeks following the coup, when Israel wasn’t there.

And then smashed up demonstrations, and raided trade union offices in the intervening year.

There’s always a reason for Hamas violence and intimidation. That’s the sort of organisation they are.

So we already know: there won’t be any opposition parties in the brave new democratic Hamastan.

So how do you propose to teach Hamas the lesson that it must stop trying to use military force to achieve its goals?

David T

So weak. As you know, Hamas never claimed to changing the rules of the game, so that silly rhetorical game doesn’t work. You know full well Israel has had its hissy fit and failed. So where to now?

I wonder what has created that situation? Israel’s failed war perhaps…

Yes, they weren’t throwing non-Hamas Palestinians off the roof before the latest war, of course.

Yes, exactly. Of course, I wonder what has created that situation? Israel’s failed war perhaps, that’s created a worse situation of panic, confusion and crisis that appeals to greater zealotry – you know that military operation heralded as the solution, to change the rules of the game, to disarm Hamas etc etc.

What first class, apologist, tosh. There was no confusion, Benji. Hamas aren’t a bunch of 5 year olds. They knew exactly what they were doing. Just like when they launched Fatah members off roofs 18 months ago.

I am beginning to suspect that David T allows the 9 year old from Hong Kong defecate all over HP because Mackie is a teaching tool, and I do mean tool, a sort of fool made foil.

That said it is still nauseating to see the Jew hater allowed on here just days after mocking the images of the Holocaust.

As you know, Hamas never claimed to changing the rules of the game, so that silly rhetorical game doesn’t work.

Of course it hasn’t changed the rules of the game.

Its game has stayed the same.

But you’re suggesting that Hamas and Israel ought to be persuaded to abandon military confrontation.

How precisely do you think that Hamas might be persuaded to give up the armed struggle, and to accept the existence of a Jewish majority democratic state?

For example: Israel could open borders and dismantle checkpoints, on the understanding that Hamas will not continue to execute, or prepare for acts of terrorism.

A breach of that agreement would entitle Israel to close the borders and take military action against Hamas in order to eliminate its offensive capacity.

Do you think that would work?

Where’s the hypocrisy, Hasbara, even the Israeli Military condemned the incident in the video. The video even shows that some soliers at the scene were distressed by the incident. Unlike the Hamas actions, this is clearly not IDF policy.

More hypocrisy!

The military condemned the incident in the video only because it was leaked, and because a woman died.

But contrary to your assertion, taking over houses for military purposes even without a conflict is IDF policy. The documented cases are too many to claim otherwise.

Hamas needs to be defeated on a political level

Hamas’ politics are stone age kassam politics: pre-verbal.

It is their “natural right to resist the zionist entity” – “resist” referring to: infantile agression.

A Lenny Bruce tactic against offensive words like “nigger”: just “nigger” out loud all the time, & the word loses its charge.

So: long live the Zionist Entity.

For Hasbara Buster (Rat Bash Abuser):

I am the soldier who slept in your home:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42581

So how do you propose to teach Hamas the lesson that it must stop trying to use military force to achieve its goals?

Ah, David, David.

The coup. Do a little research, my dear. The other side, Fatah, was using force to try to achieve its goals too – and its force was backed by US support. So that didn’t work.

Next move, buddy.

I take it we’re not going to have suggestions as to how Hamas might be persuaded to abandon its claims to Israel, or to renounce the use of violence to achieve that aim.

Benji

Are you going to carp and snipe, or are you going to set out your vision.

Benji,

Next time I am in Honkers, we must have tea at the Peninsula and discuss I/P-against all indications, you might be quite nice in the flesh?

B.

Do you think that would work?

I don’t know.

I say accept the ceasefire offer laid out by Hamas. Open the borders, and negotiate a final settlement on 67 borders.

HB, in World War II, Allied soldiers routinely occupied civilian houses. Was this equally shocking? Or is your outrage on this entirely selective?

Hamas: “We will kill you and drink the blood of your children and of Jews everywhere. We love death as you love life.”

Israel: “If you could just stop with the rockets and mortars on our population for a second, perhaps we could talk about this over some felafel?”

Actual Israel: ”Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours,” Sharon said. ”Everything we don’t grab will go to them,” he said, meaning the Palestinians.”

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06EEDC113BF935A25751C0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=7

Actual Palestinians: “Maybe if you stopped for a second expanding your settlements and outposts, we could talk about this over some hummus.”

If opening the borders results in a terrorist attack, would you then support Israel using military force to contain that threat, and a closing of the borders?

Barad

I am very nice in the flesh. Much nicer than on here. I would be very happy to talk to you in Honkers.

HB, in World War II, Allied soldiers routinely occupied civilian houses. Was this equally shocking? Or is your outrage on this entirely selective?

First, I was responding to Brett’s outrage at Hamas’ use of civilian homes for military purpose.

Second, Israel occupies houses and holds their residents hostage in times of peace, with no one shooting. See the video here:

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/01/another-crack-in-media-wall.html

If opening the borders results in a terrorist attack, would you then support Israel using military force to contain that threat, and a closing of the borders?

Yes, if Israel not only opens the borders but includes Hamas fully in negotiations for 67 borders, and those negotiations are meaningful.

Then if Hamas breaks the ceasefire while those negotiations are continuing, I would not object to an action.

What do you think that Hamas would need to accept:

Abandoning claims to Israel (bar the division of Jerusalem), and the end of the armed struggle against it?

Or something less?

I take it we’re not going to have suggestions as to how Hamas might be persuaded to abandon its claims to Israel, or to renounce the use of violence to achieve that aim.

That is not fair, David. We’ve had it suggested that:

Hamas needs to be defeated on a political level

Don’t forget they’ve had a promising start, dealing with political opponents on the level of Gaza’s high rise buildings.

At least the IDF took care of those Fatah launching pads.

In fact, if the initial ceasefire was only based on borders opening, I would support an action if Hamas broke it. But the overall aim is to move on to final settlement anyway. So things have to move on from that point.

I don’t know about all these attacks on Hamas. Jimmy Carter likes them a lot. Maybe he’s Hamas now. Perhaps they can let him shoot some people as an initiation.

Benji,

Is this clip you in HK?:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yvswyad61ic

Ok, Benjamin. How exactly would such a “political settlement” work? Do you think getting everyone to sit down with a nice cup of tea would do it? Your words sound so marvelously civilised and sensible. The only minor problem is that they do not point to anything concrete or remotely possible. If and when you can make them do so, do let the Israeli government know – they will genuinely be most interested in your effective proposals.

David

Hamas will accept the 67 package. Whether or not they want more we will have to see. Of course if they do, and try to get it using military action, Israel can blow them away without much trouble – it will be straightforward state on state action – Israel is in a stronger position.

“Actual Israel: ”Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours,” Sharon said. ”Everything we don’t grab will go to them,” he said, meaning the Palestinians.”

There has been no Israeli land grab in Gaza: the Israel-Gaza border is likely to be the final border if there is ever a settlement (no pun intended). The lesson that Hamas is teaching Israel is that unilateral withdrawal achieves worse than nothing, since their population is under constant attack worse than when Gaza was occupied.

What sort of action would you support?

I’m assuming that you accept that it would have to be sufficient for Hamas to calculate that stockpiling weapons and using them against Israelis would result in a grave blow against them.

Assuming that – as Hamas did before – it uses residential areas as arsenals, would you be prepared to accept military action aimed at destroying them?

Or are you suggesting a lesser form of military action, that wouldn’t kill people. If so, what?

Post

Two states is very possible. Israel needs to get over its fears of Hamas. But there is nothing to fear from Hamas. You can get to 67 borders and either Hamas will moderate or split, or Palestinians can deal with it militarily (with Western support), or, in the last resort, Israel can blow it away.

Hamas will accept the 67 package. Whether or not they want more we will have to see. Of course if they do, and try to get it using military action, Israel can blow them away without much trouble – it will be straightforward state on state action – Israel is in a stronger position.

Let us imagine – for a moment – that it is possible that Hamas doesn’t presently envisage an end point in which it abandons its claims to the whole of Israel. Instead, imagine that it sees 67 borders as an opportunity to arm, and go for the one last push.

Were Hamas to continue military action against Israel, are you accepting that it would be proper for Israel to carry out an attack of the intensity and scale of Operation Cast Lead: and that you’d support such action?

There has been no Israeli land grab in Gaza: the Israel-Gaza border is likely to be the final border if there is ever a settlement (no pun intended). The lesson that Hamas is teaching Israel is that unilateral withdrawal achieves worse than nothing

At last something sensible is said. UNILATERAL withdrawals are not a concession of any kind, since Israel is not obligated to anything, and therefore neither is Hamas. On the other hand, withdrawals under an agreement can bring peace, as is proved by the withdrawal from Sinai.

David T

It will up to Israel what action it took in that situation. But in principle I would support it.

However, I don’t think Hamas will break the ceasefire in that situation.

That said, the blockade of Gaza while Hamas was respecting the ceasefire is hard to explain.

Were Hamas to continue military action against Israel, are you accepting that it would be proper for Israel to carry out an attack of the intensity and scale of Operation Cast Lead: and that you’d support such action?

In the situation of two agreed, secured states, this will be a simple unprovoked state on state action, and Israel will need to take any action it sees fit to defend itself, absolutely.

We should talk to the misunderstood National Socialists, with enough appeasement of their territorial claims and encouragement of the factions in Germany who want peace like the Social Democrats, and elements in the German church and Prussian military elite and the old Junkers establishment. They can continue their rhetorical posturing on anti-semitism as they are pragmatic and not that ideologically driven. This will allow the moderate Nazis to the modify these policies. Which may appear extreme but can be understood as caused by their environment of political instability and corruption, terrible poverty and starvation in Germany and occupation of German lands, all caused by the Imperial powers.

How can there be a military solution to the National Socialists? We must let the German people themselves rise up against them. Afterall their grievances about Jewish wealth and power and perfidiousness are not without some traction as the aggressive Jewish embargoes and exagerations in the newspapers prove. Added to which the horribly unfair settlements imposed upon them after the previous war have led to an unnatural dispersal of the Germanic people. Their grievances have some foundation and must be taken seriously.

They have shown their true blue anti-Imperialist credentials in regard to the British and French Empires and were willing to deal with even their ideological enemies in the Soviet Union hence must be open to reason. Only a few of their leaders use rhetoric to incite the masses into hatred of anyone not agreeing with them. They only execute criminal elements trying to subvert the morality of the German people and those seeking to destroy them by violent means. Those Collaborators with the Imperialist powers and the grasping Jews who have a tight grip on the coffers and news organs of the decadent West.

Benji Hong Kong First 1938.

Anyway, I got to go now, and can you lift my ban please David T, messing around with Tor is tiresome. Thanks, and goodnight.

This is broadly where I stand as well.

However, in reality, I think you have to accept that there are the following risks:

1. That Hamas will not moderate or split in power, but rather will terrorise and kill its opponents

2. That Hamas will continue to treat its mandate, not as building a state, but as raising a generation of jihadists to conquer Israel.

3. That Hamas will acquire stockpiles of weapons.

If that is what happens, the conflict that follows a breakdown of the ceasefire would be, quite frankly, apocalyptic.

The calculation that this will not happen is premised upon Hamas being interested in building its own state, rather than ‘recovering an Islamic waqf’. From all Hamas’ conduct to day, there’s no obvious reason to believe that it will not continue to act as if the conquest of Israel isn’t its primary aim.

The great safeguard against Hamas using statehood to prepare for jihad is democracy. Hamas would risk losing power, if it failed to deliver on peace.

Hamas realises this. Either, they accept that the dreams of jihad are over. Or it prepares a counter-strategy.

There are two things that Hamas can do in those circumstances to turn matters around for it.

1. Kill your oppponents;

2. Provoke a war, or border closures, so that you can tell your population that you’re engaged in resistance, and so normal rules don’t apply.

That’s precisely what Hamas has been doing to date. The question is: how do you get it to stop?

“Hamas will accept the 67 package.”

Says who? Not Hamas, that’s for sure.They just talk about a long term hudna if Israel capitulates to all of their demands including losing all of Jerusalem, full return of Palestinian “refugees” – no use to anyone really. They lose badly but cannot see it and swallow their own propaganda about their alleged victory. As Mo’ said “war is deceit”…

Hannah barbara is clearly hoping for a Likud government to come into power.

“UNILATERAL withdrawals are not a concession of any kind, since Israel is not obligated to anything,”

I really do not understand your point-Israel withdrew unilaterally, a massive concession in its own right and should have had no further obligation to the Gazans: Palestinians demand Israel withdraws. Israel withdraws. Palestinians have the opportunity to run their own territory for the benefit of their population. Instead Palestinians attack Israel.

What Hamas does is irrational if they care about their own people. However they appear not to, so they maintain a state of war.

You appear to treat the Palestinians as children who are not able to make rational decisions for their own benefit (granted they often do not). But they are not children-perhaps Hamas should take responsibility for its own actions and the consequences for their population.

David T “How do you propose encouraging Hamas to accept that it will never have “from the river to the sea”?”

Here, is Khalid Mish’al in 2007:

“A historic new phase in the Palestinian struggle for freedom and independence has begun. Last week’s Mecca agreement between Hamas and Fatah will pave the way for the first ever truly Palestinian national unity government. [...] The Palestinian national accord achieved in Mecca envisages the establishment of a truly sovereign and independent Palestinian state on the territories occupied by Israel in June 1967 – with Jerusalem as its capital, the dismantling of the settlements in the West Bank, the release of all Palestinian prisoners and the acknowledgement of the right of the refugees to return to their homes.”

That was a really dangerous statement – acceptance of the 2ss. Israel could not tolerate a unity government willing to make peace, so it orchestrated the civil war and attacked Hamas. This is exactly what we are seeing now.

“Gaza victims describe human shield use”

Jan. 29, 2009

post staff , THE JERUSALEM POST

“Members of a Gaza family whose farm was turned into a “fortress” by Hamas fighters have reported that they were helpless to stop Hamas from using them as human shields.

They told the official Palestinian Authority daily newspaper that for years Hamas had used their property and homes as military installations from which the group would launch rockets into Israel, dig tunnels and store arms. According to the victims, those who tried to object were shot in the legs by Hamas operatives.

Palestinian Media Watch quoted the official Palestinian Authority daily, Al-Hayat al-Jadida as reporting on January 27, “The Abd Rabbo family kept quiet while Hamas fighters turned their farm in the Gaza strip into a fortress. Right now they are waiting for the aid promised by the [Hamas] movement after Israel bombed the farm and turned it into ruins.”

According to the report, the hill on which the Abd Rabbo family lives overlooks Sderot, making it an ideal military position for Hamas fighters.

The Abd Rabbo family members emphasized to the paper that they were not Hamas activists and that they were still loyal to the Fatah movement, but that they had been unable to prevent the armed squads from entering their neighborhood at night.”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233050211857&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Iain- “They can continue their rhetorical posturing on anti-semitism as they are pragmatic and not that ideologically driven. This will allow the moderate Nazis to the modify these policies.”

Scarily enough, some people in the 1930s actually DID believe that there were “moderate Nazis” and did believe that their rhetoric was posturing.

Frankly, I have never heard of a “moderate” member of Hamas speaking out so I assume that they don’t exist.

Peter Beaumont in the Observer seems to believe that Sheikh Yassin was a “pragmatist”. However, he seemed like a borderline psychopath to me.

Benjamin – you seem to be over-simplifying things quite a bit.
In the unlikely event that Hamas would wake up one morning and pick up the phone to Jerusalem with an offer of peace in return for ‘67 borders, do you really think that:
a) this would represent the whole of Hamas, including the leadership in Syria, or would we in fact be getting yet another Palestinian faction to contend with?
b) that Iran would allow Hamas to relinquish terror? Wouldn’t Iran just find another proxy to finance and egg on from the sidelines?

1. That was an article in the Guardian. I am told that it was written by Alistair Crooke.

2. It was an article that accepted the creation of a Palestinian state. Well, I’m glad we’re both in favour of that. But what’s new about that?

3. There’s a difference between accepting the creation of a state (Palestine), and abandoning a claim to another state (Israel).

4. If this is what Hamas is striving for, precisely how did shooting rockets at Israel advance that aim? It palpably hindered it.

5. I’d be very interested to see anything of this nature said by Hamas to Palestinian and Arab audiences. Because they haven’t. And that matters. First it would indicate that this wasn’t simply PR for Guardian readers. Secondly, Palestinians have a right to know that Hamas is no longer the party that seeks to destroy Israel.

“That said it is still nauseating to see the Jew hater allowed on here just days after mocking the images of the Holocaust.”

This was a better place without the pointless troll Benjamin.

I thought he was banned? If not, can the Mods please try to ensure that he isn’t allowed to defecate over too many threads before he says something so ridiculously stupid (again) that he is banned (again).

I tolerate HB (in fact Ive never called for banning anyone else) because he tends to stay broadly on topic (and his comments/posts are often so ludicrous that he is quite helpful/instructive to this blog).

But..these threads were very noticebly better without the Hong Kong one. There were still plenty of arguments etc. But they were from people who had an opinion and whose intention wasn’t simply to derail the thread.

Ta

mattG

Brett

Im not sure that any of the ‘we are all’ brigade will be put off their posturing by the fact that Hamas are a bunch of nasty thugs.

I just feel that it is about who they hate (jews/Israel/America) rather than who their bedfellows are. Hamas are the vehicle, not the destination.

Hamas could call for the execution of all homosexuals in Gaza tomorrow and the ‘we are all’ brigade will turn a blind eye or come up with some obscure justfication.

At the moment they are just seen by many as the best bet to end the ‘Zionist Experiment’.

mattG

1. That sounds like an outrageous statement. Who told you?

2. The proposed Palestinian state is explicitly in the WB, Gaza and East Jerusalem. But you’re right its not new – there have been numerous similar statements, all ignored by you.

3. See above – the statement is explicit about where the Palestinian state will be. That is enough to move forward.

4. Well, Hamas was extremely effective in halting the rockets during the ceasefire, which Israel broke. I’m sorry, but no amount of hand wringing will change that well established fact. And what do you think Israel’s attacks have done for the prospect of a 2ss?

5. OK, but this is a public statement, for which Hamas can be held accountable. It is enough, if you are serious, to at least justify sitting down at a table with them to see if they are serious. But, Israel does not want to make peace with Hamas. It is Israel that is obstructing the 2ss. In 2007, recall, this was a unity government, comprising Fatah and Hamas. And Israel flatly refused to negotiate.

Of course, I wonder what has created that situation [where Hamas are shooting anyone they fancy]

See, everyone? The urge to de-limb your political opponents is just a natural reaction to external forces. Hamas are not free agents; rather, they are in a state of perpetual reaction and response to outside influence. They really can’t help themselves.

Woman is raped in the street. Does anyone other than a misogynist ask: “Did she lead him on?”?

Immigrants are beaten in their homes. Does anyone other than a racist say: “But they’re taking all our jobs”?

Hamas murder a few hundred civilians and all Benji has to say is: “It’s Israel’s fault.”

Still, he’s always polite, isn’t he?

“4. Well, Hamas was extremely effective in halting the rockets during the ceasefire, which Israel broke. “

Israel did NOT break the ceasefire!

Did too.

Israel could not tolerate a unity government willing to make peace, so it orchestrated the civil war and attacked Hamas.

Hilarious. All the bad things anyone does are because of Israel.

acceptance of the 2ss.[by Khaled Mishal]

When did Khaled Mishal accept the existence of Israel as part of a peace settlement?

What would stop it from being such a party, is if it risked losing power, because of its failure to deliver on peace. There are two things that Hamas can do in those circumstances to turn matters around for it.
1. Kill your oppponents;

2. Provoke a war, or border closures, so that you can tell your population that you’re engaged in resistance, and so normal rules don’t apply.
That’s precisely what Hamas has been doing to date. The question is: how do you get it to stop?

You have to make the military price sufficiently high. Inflict enough casualties on Hamas so that they come to the realisation of 2 things.

Firstly that they Israel has the with the will to stand up to Hamas. I think Israel are and will continue to do this (Something we – us Brits and the Yanks havn’t been that great at in Iraq or Afghanistan), they’ve corrected the weak, vacillating image they were projecting in 2006.

Secondly, Hamas must come to understand that they cannot win militarily against Israel.

Sadly, Hamas are Islamonutters, who believe that their victory will be divinely facilitated. This will make them especially slow to catch on.

They must be persuaded that the ‘Insha-Allah’ thing aint working.

I think Israel is playing it quite well, I can’t see what they could be doing that they are not.

Of course Iran is in the background as sponsors and suppliers for Hamas and Iran’s aspirations as regional Islamic superpower scare the shiite out of many of the surrounding Sunni Arab states, who are not so secretly hoping for Hamas to loose control of the strip. Israel knows this.

Meantime, Fatah are being cast as moderates and are now de-facto allies of Israel; quite a turn of events really.

We may also may see the Iran nuclear thing coming to a head in the next few Months. I just can’t see the IDF giving that a free pass.

This could get interesting.

Saying that you’re in favour of having your own state does not constitute a disavowal of a claim over a neighbouring state.

Particularly when the entire conflict is over whether Hamas will abandon its claim to Israel: that is a pretty important point.

TheIrie, Israel fired on Hamas militants digging a tunnel into Israel. Digging a tunnel, through which they’d previously conducted kidnapping raids (e.g. Gilad Shalit), is a hostile act. Or do you deny that such acts are not technical breaches of a ceasefire? Is kidnapping allowed, you know, unless you fire a shot?

MEMRI Special Dispatch | No. 2219 | January 29, 2009

Hamas Leaders: ‘The Gaza Victory Has Paved the Way to Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, the Negev, and the West Bank’; PA Should ‘Join What Your People Has Chosen – Jihad and Resistance’; ‘We Will Continue Fighting Until the Occupation is Defeated on Palestinian Soil’.

At the ‘victory rally’ in Qatar.

Sorry Iriot that your peaceloving guys keep letting you down by saying what they mean and want.

Tzimisces, every line I meant to show the parallels. I am just being ‘paranoid and nationalistic’ to point out that the rhetoric of the appeasers of the Socialists, Communists and America-Firsters all found this very same ‘common ground’ with the National Socialists when it suited them. People here are I’m sure aware of the language of appeasement from the peace-factions and pacifists in all of these movements and how it was used by the National Socialists too even until the occupation of Poland. The Poles incited that too – remember.

I note the unwillingness of the peace movements to allow warmongers warnings to be taken seriously and so on. The repetitions of this language and worse in the peace protest movement today including the excusing and tacit agreement with anti-semitism is I believe why so many Jews feel we have returned to the 1930’s in the West. Now we have a massive economic recession too which is being blamed on the Jews in many quarters and implied often enough even in the parts of the media which are blind to anti-semitism. The 3 monkeys way of good people doing nothing until it is too late or not at all.

And seriously how could the German people have modified or got rid of the National Socialists, and they did consider themselves to be every inch both a radical and socialist party, once voted into power?

Jews are leaving the UK for Israel and North America and many seem to be motivated by this vision of history repeating itself. What is notably absent from discussion in our media is that this is how British Jews are feeling and as National Socialists is how HAMAS are perceived by most Jews here and more importantly in Israel.

Jews I have noted tend to ‘observe and remember’ including the lessons of history as that it how they have survived. It is the motivation of the Israel-lobby for example, as if there is no lobby or a weak one we know what that means. Jews become expedient losses to fretted over only when it is too late. It is that others forget this and that Israels’ enemies, all of whom are ironically Successionist from Judaism whether Communist, Socialist or Islamist, rely on the generations forgetting the past or being ignorant of it.

Brett – if you have any evidence that the terms of the ceasefire were broken by Hamas, lets see it. But you haven’t because they weren’t – they were broken by Israel. In fact, the actual terms of the ceasefire were never upheld by Israel from the start, since one of the conditions was that the economic blockade would be lifted. So, there is no doubt who it was that broke the ceasefire, and then, from mid-December onwards refused to reinstate one.

David – “Saying that you’re in favour of having your own state does not constitute a disavowal of a claim over a neighbouring state.” But he clearly, and explicitly referenced the borders of the Palestinian state on the 67 borders. Come on, stop looking for excuses. You know that that is enough to bring him to the negotiating table, if peace on those borders is what is desired.

Lets say that, in an Israeli election, a government was elected on that had as its founding purpose, the integration of Judea and Samaria into Israel, and the expulsion of all non-Jews.

As a precondition for Palestinians ending armed resistance against that Israel, would you expect to hear the Israeli PM explicitly disavow its supposed ‘rights’ to the West Bank and Gaza?

Or would you expect Palestinians to negotiate away their defences, on the basis that they should trust the Israeli Government not to roll over the border the second that the Palestinians were the most defenceless?

TheIrie
30 January 2009, 4:10 pm

David T “How do you propose encouraging Hamas to accept that it will never have “from the river to the sea”?”

Here, is Khalid Mish’al in 2007:

“A historic new phase in the Palestinian struggle for freedom and independence has begun. Last week’s Mecca agreement between Hamas and Fatah will pave the way for the first ever truly Palestinian national unity government. [...] The Palestinian national accord achieved in Mecca envisages the establishment of a truly sovereign and independent Palestinian state on the territories occupied by Israel in June 1967 – with Jerusalem as its capital, the dismantling of the settlements in the West Bank, the release of all Palestinian prisoners and the acknowledgement of the right of the refugees to return to their homes.”

That was a really dangerous statement – acceptance of the 2ss. Israel could not tolerate a unity government willing to make peace, so it orchestrated the civil war and attacked Hamas. This is exactly what we are seeing now.

Unity government? Irie conveniently overlooks the fact that the unity government ceased to exist shortly after the Hamas putsche in Gaza. But then I guess if Hamas members were busily murdering Gazans who so much as served as cooks for Fatah, it was doubtless because Israel engineered something.

David – have you read the Likud charter? Your suggestion isn’t, in fact, hypothetical – it has happened, and may happen again very soon. Here it is:

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting. ”

Now, by your standards, if Likud is elected, it would be justified for Palestine and the international community to sanction, boycott, and bomb Israel.

I don’t accept, and nor should anyone, that there should be precondition for any peace treaty, on either side, that the other side must make some statement about the others “right to exist”. Large chunks of both sides don’t accept the others “right to exist”. But to allow this to obstruct a pragmatic peace, accepted, in theory, by both sides, is opportunism. Lets by honest, words are cheap. Even if they said it, you’d probably say Alistair Crooke told them to. Lets focus on actions.

Iriot,

HAMAS clearly believe that all of Israel is within the borders of the mythical ‘Palestine’. They say so themselves repeatedly.

Yet you continue to deny this. A blockade in which hundreds of trucks of supplies go in and a ceasefire where scores of rockets, mortars and other attacks come out was the reality of the terms you are refering to. Elder of Zion kept a tab of the daily count in a calender, check it out.

Your continued inversions of reality demonstrate the bankruptcy of your ideological politics and the moral vacuity of your juvenile posturing and self-righteous shilling for a National Socialist Party.

Now, by your standards, if Likud is elected, it would be justified for Palestine and the international community to sanction, boycott, and bomb Israel.

I think that any negotiation with Palestinians must commence with a clear, unequivocal and permanent disavowal of Israeli claims to “Judea and Samaria”, and an acceptance that any settlement will involve full and consensual exchanges of territory and – if they choose – populations.

I don’t think the Palestinians should accept anything less than that.

But then, by that token, why should the Israelis?

David – That is not going to happen. No Israeli or Palestinian government is going to make such a statement. Your standards for preconditions to peace negotiations are not going to be met by either side, and they will all continue to live in war and misery. So, really, you are throwing up obstacles to peace. You need to get out the way, mate. You’re helping no-one.

Benjamin

“Hamas will accept the 67 package.”

Which one? The ‘67 package rejected by the three no’s of Khartoum? The ‘67 package contemplated by 242 which contemplates Israel keeping some of the occupied territories?

And why do think this? You read HP every day. You know what’s in the Hamas charter. You know the fatwa that says any deal would be illegal under Shari’a. You know about Hamas’ genocidal anti-semitism. So why this trite assertion?

“Whether or not they want more we will have to see.”

Fuck yeah. Let’s take a risk with our children’s lives. Let’s not think about risk at all. Benjamin says we’ll have to wait and see.

“Of course if they do, and try to get it using military action, Israel can blow them away without much trouble – it will be straightforward state on state action – Israel is in a stronger position.”

Has everything that has been said about asymetric warfare just passed you by?

That is what has been happening since Israel’s withdrawal in 2005. And you haven’t seemed that happy about Israel’s response.

And don’t you think that using phrases like “blow them away” is a little insensitive when so many lives are at stake?

But Israel has made statements by (a) withdrawing from Gaza and (b) about withdrawing from the West Bank.

These statements need to be made very clearly on both sides.

You’re twisting about now. Israel has not made a statement renouncing the Jews historic right to greater Israel. Similarly Palestinian authorities haven’t made a statement saying that Israel has a right to exist on historic Palestine. Israel has hinted towards an acceptance of a Palestinian state, but hasn’t conceeded the right to such a state, and certainly hasn’t withdrawn from Gaza or the West Bank. Likewise, in the quotes I gave, Hamas has hinted towards acceptance of a state on the ‘67 borders.

This is just an excuse for Israeli rejectionism – it happens to be a bad excuse since Israel doesn’t even rise to the standard that it is setting for Palestine itself. But even if Israel were to say the Palestinians have a right to the West Bank and Gaza, this is still a totally artificial barrier to a negotiated settlement.

Anyway, as you’re so big on charters, I wonder what you think about the Likud Charter? What should be do if Likud is elected?

Israel has not made a statement renouncing the Jews historic right to greater Israel.

Do you seriously not think the Palestinians have a right to such a statement?

This interview is an absolutely crucial statement

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/world/middleeast/30olmert.html

What is important about it is that it sets out, unquivically not only the need to withdraw – including from East Jerusalem – but the rationale for doing so:

“I am the first who wanted to enforce Israeli sovereignty on the entire city. I admit it. I am not trying to justify retroactively what I did for 35 years. For a large portion of these years, I was unwilling to look at reality in all its depth.”

“A decision has to be made,” he said. “This decision is difficult, terrible, a decision that contradicts our natural instincts, our innermost desires, our collective memories, the prayers of the Jewish people for 2,000 years.”

Now, compare that with the Me’shal statement cited above. That talks only of the positive act of establishing a state. It says nothing about curtailing ambitions at all, does it?

That is a very crucial difference.

Anyway, as you’re so big on charters, I wonder what you think about the Likud Charter?

There is no way that Palestinians can accept a peace deal while Likud maintains a claim to Gaza and the West Bank.

What should be do if Likud is elected?

Well, that will be a pretty pass.

Let’s hope that if it is elected, it doesn’t spend the next two years eliminating all opposition parties in Israel, eh. Because if it does, that’s the end of democracy in that country.

Israel could not tolerate a unity government willing to make peace, so it orchestrated the civil war and attacked Hamas. This is exactly what we are seeing now.

This is clearly a suspicion.

The thing is, Hamas has not really been tested yet. All its ceasefire offers have essentially been rejected. What Israel needs to do is accept a durable ceasefire and work very seriously towards two states. It’s in a very strong position, not a weak one. This acceptance puts the onus on Hamas and the Palestinians. At the moment its a stalemate. If you don’t progress the situation you don’t really know what will happen – you can only speculate.

David – Mishal and Olmert’s statements are in fact more or less identical. Neither recognises the others “right” to the land. Both spell out a pragmatic acceptance of the 67′ borders. You seem unable to digest the fact the Mishal is explicitly talking about a Palestinian state on the ‘67 borders, not greater Israel.

Israel could not tolerate a unity government willing to make peace, so it orchestrated the civil war and attacked Hamas. This is exactly what we are seeing now.

This is clearly a suspicion.

The thing is, Hamas has not really been tested yet. Not in peace making, only in war. It can’t be destroyed in war. All its ceasefire offers have essentially been rejected. What Israel needs to do is accept a durable ceasefire and work very seriously towards two states. It’s in a very strong position, not a weak one. This acceptance puts the onus on Hamas. At the moment its a stalemate. If you don’t progress the situation you don’t really know what will happen, there are many variables – you can only speculate.

Olmert is not going to be PM for very much longer anyway. You really need to find out Netanyahu’s views: the last I heard he was rejecting any negotiation over Jerusalem, and was proposing more settlements in the West Bank.

That talks only of the positive act of establishing a state.

Of course! Because there is no Palestinian state. It naturally involves Palestinian ambitions and Israeli concessions – Israel is by far the most powerful party, occupying land. There is no controversy about that.

Well I expect if Netanyahu wins, we will get post after post on HP calling on him to renounse the Likud Charter.

renounce

The only question is whether Hamas will attack Israel within its 1967 borders from within an established Palestinian state. I have already discussed all that. Israel should not fear that because even if Hamas did that – and its by no means certain – Israel will be in a much stronger position to deal with it.

Do you know what Hamas mean by “ending the occupation”, Benji?

I don’t want to rerun arguments about The Mandate For Palestine and the rights of Jews to live in Gaza and West Bank, but remember that it gave the rights of Jews and Arabs to settle everywhere. In 1948 Jordan claimed West Bank and Egypt claimed Gaza.

In settlement of Res 242 they both ceded the land back to Israel with the concept that both areas could now be free for settlement by Jews and Arabs. However, the land wasn’t absorbed as Israel it was left for some future negotiation and that negotiation has arisen to creating a Palestinian State.

If a Jewish State can absorb Arabs as citizens then why can’t a Palestinian State absorb Jews as citizens. No land swap for settlements is needed. They can become dual citizens of Palestine and Israel.

Please don’t tell me some people support an Apartheid Palestinian State

I have already discussed all that. Israel should not fear that because even if Hamas did that – and its by no means certain – Israel will be in a much stronger position to deal with it.

“Here, have a free shot to kill Israelis, and if you do then we will respond” No!

Just because a post mentions Israel or Palestine does not automatically mean that a rehash of every single argument on every single previous thread is on topic. I’m drawing a line here and now. If you want to discuss the topic of THIS post please feel free. If you want to discuss something else relevant to I/P, please do it on a post relevant to that topic.

Here is the line:

————————————–

And there can be no deal with the Palestinians until they insist on the so-called “right of the refugees to return”. That’s the bottom line. While they insist on this they may even pay lip service to the 2 state solution, but that would imply two Palestinian-Muslim majority states (besides a 3rd: Jordania) from which, in the best of hypotheses, the Jews would be slowly or quickly pushed out. (In the worst hypothesis they would be summarily massacred.) So ket’s be clear: the Palestinian “right of return” is nothing but an euphemism for calling the whole land “from the river to the sea” Islamic Waqf.

HP should print off Bruno’s post from 2006, it is as relevant today as it was then:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2006/08/04/how-should-the-palestinians-have-fought/

I’d forgotten that post, but on re-reading it I have to say my intro was particularly good, wasn’t it.

Israel lost the Gaza War? then how come it is Hamas who says they are open to negotiations?

“Hamas Signals Willingness to Negotiate” (CBS/AP)
“Senior officials in the Islamic group Hamas are indicating a willingness to negotiate a deal for a long-term truce with Israel as long as the the borders of Gaza are opened to the rest of the world.
‘We want to be part of the international community’, Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad told The Associated Press ….(Hamad) ‘I think Hamas has no interest now to increase the number of crises in Gaza or to challenge the world.’ ….
…. whether Hamas … can be coaxed out of Iran’s orbit. The question looks less preposterous that it did before President Barack Obama began extending olive branches to the Muslim world and Israel’s Gaza offensive reshuffled Mideast politics.”
Link to full report at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/29/world/main4761708.shtml

As long as the Palestinians insisit on the Right to Return there will no peace with Israel. I.E. the right of the descendents of the Palestinian refugees to reclaim the homes their families left/fled/or were expelled from/ in 1948. Such a return of several million Arabs would mark the end of Israel as a Jewish and probably a democracy. Israel knows this would be their death sentence and will never agree to it.

Note: How are the right to return or get compensation for the several million desendents of the 750,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries after Israel’s creation in 1948?

A footnote to Iain’s posts about the appeasement of the Nazis in 1930s and the appeasement of Islamic militants today.
Senator William Borah (Rep.-Idaho) in 1939 was one of the most respected members of the Senate and a firm isolantionist. When the Nazis invaded Poland, Borah proclaimed, “If only I had been able to talk with Hitler this could have been avoided”!

“HP should print off Bruno’s post from 2006, it is as relevant today as it was then”

YES! That’s precisely articulates what I was hinting at in the ANC post. The failure to take the steps enumerated in Bruno’s post really is why both Hamas and Fatah are still flapping about and the ANC has been in government for over a decade.

Brett this is excellent at a time when the sometimes mawkish sympathy for the Gazan people is transposed by the simplistically minded onto the “aims and ideals” of “freedom fighters” like Hamas.

For myself I wonder whether, if questioned, the residents of Gaza will behave like Germans in 1945, when somehow the Allies could never find anyone who actually voted for Hitler.

“I read a bad news story about Muslims in Harry’s Place every day”

Cheer up, Zin. Harrys Place has a long way to go before it can hope to catch up with Cesspit is Free’s number of bad news articles about Israel.

But Hamas were democratically elected as the lunatic fringe on the Left never tires of reminding us, conveniently forgetting that after they were elected they carefully disposed of all their “democratic” opposition.

It’s probably worth linking to this Channel 4 News story, which covers much of the same ground about Hamas and “voluntary” human shields as this HP post does.

It also has an interview with a Hamas official, talking about summary executions.

The failure to take the steps enumerated in Bruno’s post really is why both Hamas and Fatah are still flapping about and the ANC has been in government for over a decade.

I can think of another reason why ANC is in power and the Palestinians are occupied.

The white minority in South Africa came to its senses and understood that dumping the blacks in Bantustans and keeping the rest for the whites could not be sustained in the long run.

By contrast, it hasn’t yet dawned on Israel’s Jewish majority that in the present “scrambled-egg” situation, with settlers all over the West Bank, the time for a two-state solution is gone.

And it is gone because Israel hasn’t been able to take step 3 in Bruno’s list:

3) Be credible. When you say you will do or refraing from doing something, follow through.

How many times has Israel promised that it would stop settlement expansion? But it didn’t deliver. What’s Israel’s credibility?

How many times has Fatah promised to stop terrorism, but hasn’t?

Fatah terrorism has largely stopped.

You really need to find out Netanyahu’s views: the last I heard he was rejecting any negotiation over Jerusalem, and was proposing more settlements in the West Bank.

You may or may not be correct about his stance on Jerusalem, but he is on record as being opposed to establishing any new settlements in the West Bank.

Fatah terrorism has largely stopped.

Tell that to the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (linked to Fatah) and the Popular Resistance Committees (which have Fatah operatives) Alberto. Next.

Can You Pronounce the Name of Your Own Nation?

Palestine, Palestinians, the right to return to Palestine; The Arab inhabitants in both, Israel and the Palestinian territories call themselves Palestinians and call their homeland Palestine. The world has fallen into a trap believing the existence of a fabricated Arab Palestinian nation. The evidence for the biggest hoax in history- so called Arab Palestinian nation- has been in front of our ears for decades and we were deaf to hear it. The evidence has been pronounced thousand of times, day after day, hours after hours by the Arabs themselves. They have been shouting out loud that they are a fabricated nation, and no one was willing to listen. Have you got no idea at all what I am taking about? Want a hint? Listen again, Palestine. Palestinian. No, still not? OK, fair enough, let me explain.

A name of a nation is a name that is rooted in history, a name of a nation is proudly transferred from father to son generation after generation. A name of a nation is rooted within the language of your own people, a language that you are proud of, a language that you can actually pronounce to the letter. But just by listening to an Arabic speech you will shortly realize that the letter/sound “P” does not exist in Arabic. Arabs pronounce ‘B’ instead of ‘P’, for example, the word people will be pronounced as beoble. The question is, if ‘P’ does not exist in Arabic, then why an Arab will use a letter that does not exist in his alphabet for a name, and more so for the name of his own nation, and a name for his own people (beoble)? The name Palestine or Palestinian cannot be pronounced phonetically by any man whose mother tongue is Arabic, including Arabs who so call themselves Palestinians.

How a nation can truly exist when their proclaimed ‘beoble’ cannot pronounce it correctly? The fallacy of a native Arab Palestinian nation has been absorbed and accepted for decades without questioning if they really ever existed. An Arab ‘Balestinian’ nation is the biggest hoax in the human history.

Israel kills terrorist beasts:

http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Middle_East/10278858.html

“I can think of another reason why ANC is in power and the Palestinians are occupied…. The white minority in South Africa came to its senses …”

Do you think they would have “come to their senses” sooner if the ANC’s charter has pledged to exterminate them all and to wipe South Africa off the map from the Limpopo to the Sea?

The other difference is that all sides in the South African situation were basically secular liberal democtrats. How do you expect a single state in I/P to accomodate both the western democratic tradiion in Israel and an Islamic state favoured by Hamas?

You may or may not be correct about his stance on Jerusalem, but he is on record as being opposed to establishing any new settlements in the West Bank.

Like all PM’s under whose governments the settlements expanded like crazy.

The Guardian doesn’t care. And if you press them they’ll simply blame the Jews. Remember, Arab on Arab mayhem is the unavoidable consequence of apartheid occupation etc etc etc etc and so forth.

“but one respected human rights worker in Gaza said he believed between 40 and 50 people had been killed in reprisal attacks since the start of the war. But there was not yet enough evidence to suggest this was an organised campaign by Hamas, he said.”

If they had been killed by Israelis, that would be enough body bags to declare a genocidal campaign.

Fatah terrorism has largely stopped because of the Barrier Wall on the West Bank and other Israeli security measures, not because Fatah or any of its allies have abandoned terrorism.

How a nation can truly exist when their proclaimed ‘beoble’ cannot pronounce it correctly?

They pronounce it as Falastin and they have a history as a group with national aspirations albeit not a very long history. But their having national aspirations (excepting those who have only supranational Islamist aspirations like PIJ, Hamas, etc.) is not a hoax, least of all the biggest hoax in human history. Go back to the drawing board.

Well, Nature, all that is not strictly true. In fact it is the mistake of the West to call it Palestine with a P – in both Hebrew and Arabic it is pronounced Falastine with an F. The trouble is that the letters in both Hebrew and Arabic can change simply according to a set of dots or lines placed beside or on them. Thus P can be F, B can be V , S can be SH and so on. This seems to have confused Europeans throughout history and produced some dodgy translations. There are also letters which have no english equivalent and therefore, for example, the name ‘Aza has been bastardised to Gaza.

Brett – the slogan ‘we are all Hamas now’ may have to be modified to ‘we are all Hamas & Al Queida now’.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3664480,00.html
-an interesting article about the double lives of some Hamas members as Al Queida operatives too.

Hopefully, some of the far Left will now realise that Hamas aren’t quite so cute and cuddly as they thought and that the I/P conflict is about a hell of a lot more that a few arid, dusty miles of land.

Like all PM’s under whose governments the settlements expanded like crazy.

Of course Alberto, the Israeli government should have either ceded the West Bank and East Jerusalem unilaterally without any negotiated peace agreement and forcibly transferred all Jews from there, or sterilized every Jewish person in the West Bank and East Jerusalem capable of reproducing. Thanks for your input. Your criticisms are always so well reasoned.

Of course Alberto, the Israeli government should have either ceded the West Bank and East Jerusalem unilaterally without any negotiated peace agreement and forcibly transferred all Jews from there, or sterilized every Jewish person in the West Bank and East Jerusalem capable of reproducing.

No; it would have sufficed to accommodate new immigrants from Russia, Peru or France in Israel proper instead of the West Bank.

During the negociation and implementation of the Oslo Agreements, ie between 1993 and 2000, the number of settlers increased by about 57% (from 248,000 to 390,000 settlers) in the Palestinian territories. There’s no way a population can increase so sharply by natural growth only.

Hasbara busted — yet again.

(My name is not Alberto, but I’m satisfied you’ve at least ceased to call me by a surname which is not mine either.)

Fatah terrorism has largely stopped because of the Barrier Wall

What! Haven’t you heard about the man with an axe to grind?

HB, your own post make clear, the desire of some Palestinians to make terror attacks against Israelis, no matter what.

“The Gaza Victory Has Paved the Way to Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, the Negev, and the West Bank… We Will Continue Fighting Until the Occupation is Defeated on Palestinian Soil”

Senior Hamas official Isma’il Radhwan stated at the rally: “The Gaza victory has paved the way to Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, the Negev, and the West Bank. Gaza is not our [only] enterprise; [our national enterprise includes] Gaza and Palestine. We will continue fighting until the occupation is defeated on Palestinian soil.”

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD221909

Doc Martyn: Isma’il Radhwan proclaiming the Gaza War to be a Hamas victory is like in Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” where the revolutionary leader, Reg,(John Cleese) proclaims:

“Comrades, this total disaster is only the Glorious Beginning!”

HB, your own post make clear, the desire of some Palestinians to make terror attacks against Israelis, no matter what.

That man was not linked to Fatah.

Not linked to Fatah. He was a Palestinian, was he not? And he did try to commit terrorism?

During the negociation and implementation of the Oslo Agreements, ie between 1993 and 2000, the number of settlers increased by about 57% (from 248,000 to 390,000 settlers) in the Palestinian territories. There’s no way a population can increase so sharply by natural growth only.
Hasbara busted — yet again.

Tell it to Anne Alexander from her article published in the journal International Socialism 89, Winter 2000 issue and which originally appeared on the website of the British Socialist Workers Party

The Israeli settler population of the Occupied Territories has increased from 110,000 in 1993 to 195,000 in June 2000.

Alberto Minyara aka the Hasbara Buster busted yet again. This time apparently by an article in Maariv cited by someone writing for the Swuppies.
Oh the irony.

I just thought that i will let every one know about SID a user who has posted many times in this blog site before. He claims to be a really moderate muslim accepting Israel but on another blog he has been caught saying many anti-semetic statements against jewish bloggers some of his comments are below,

‘yeah right, the Jewish gentleman. And I take it from your name you’re a Christian. So why are you so concerned about my Islamic beliefs?’

‘If you’re really jewish Marc, why do you write in a Bangladeshi accent?
And if you’re a semite, why can’t you even spell “anti-semetic” properly?’

‘Goodnight razakar’

These are some of the few points he made against me on the between the lines blog. Please everyone be aware he is an undercover extremist fanatic who hates irael and jews to the core.

You have been warned

We need more Hamas victories like this. As the captain of the Titantic said; “Fuck it, it’s just ice.”

Tell it to Anne Alexander from her article published in the journal International Socialism 89, Winter 2000 issue and which originally appeared on the website of the British Socialist Workers Party

The Israeli settler population of the Occupied Territories has increased from 110,000 in 1993 to 195,000 in June 2000.

Which further proves my case. A 72% increase in 7 years cannot be the result of natural growth only.

The discrepancy between your figures and mine is due to the fact that mine include settlements on the outskirts of Jerusalem, and yours don’t.

Notice that Alberto’s allegation that his uncited figures include settlements on the outskirts of Jerusalem while SWP writer Anne Alexander’s cited numbers don’t isn’t supported with any evidence. Also take note that Alberto believes that increasing the population by 140,000 constitutes a 57% increase while increasing the population by 85,000 (57,000 fewer people) constitutes a 72% increase. What can one say?

It is amazing to me, that there is so much confusion over who the terrorists are. Hamas is a terrorist organization that condones and facilitates suicide bombings and will kill every Jew on the planet if they have the chance.
Israel is an energetic democracy with a vibrant press. Israel is a free country that abides by the rule of law. By contrast, if a writer were to go to Gaza or Iran, for instance, and start writing bad words, he might wind up on the news, dead.
Israel allows Christians and Arab Muslims to worship freely, while Hamas wants to see us all at the bottom of the sea. Hamas, supported by Iran, is clear about their goals: they want to wipe out Israel completely, utterly, with finality. But it’s not just Israel that Hamas wants to kill; they want to kill all Jews everywhere.

Also take note that Alberto believes that increasing the population by 140,000 constitutes a 57% increase while increasing the population by 85,000 (57,000 fewer people) constitutes a 72% increase. What can one say?

How many times must I tell you that I’m not Alberto Minyan!

My dear, you need to review your arithmetic. 140,000 constitutes a 57% increase if we consider an initial figure of 248,000 settlers (which includes the Jerusalem outskirts). While 85,000 constitutes a 72% increase if we consider an initial figure of 110,000 settlers (which excludes the Jerusalem outskirts).

Either way, the population increase in the settlements is incompatible with natural growth rate.

“Fatah terrorism has largely stopped.”

I note the “largely.” That’s like being a little bit pregnant isn’t it Buster?

But I am sure that anyone maimed or the families of those killed by any Fatah terrorism will be immensely cheered that it has “largely” stopped.

Sorry Alberto but the majority of Jews in the WB live in the settlements around Jerusalem. Take your faulty math and go back to the drawing board.

They have been shouting out loud that they are a fabricated nation

and that the purpose of this fabrication is to destroy the Jews’ state and grab it all to themselves.

Quite so, but lbnaz refuses to listen. He is wrong, and Nature is right.
The so-called ‘Palestinians’ don’t even know that the word means ‘invaders’. No real nation borrows a foreign word that means ‘invaders’ and applies it to itself.
They have no history of their own (polity, rulers, …), no culture of their own, or language, or religion, or anything of a similar nature.

You know full well Israel has had its hissy fit and failed

And you ‘know’ this because the shifting lizards of HK told you so?

Well, Hamas was extremely effective in halting the rockets during the ceasefire, which Israel broke. I’m sorry, but no amount of hand wringing will change that well established fact

LOL. But I shouldn’t really laugh. The capacity of Jew-haters to delude themselves into believing 14 impossible things before breakfast (as long as they paint the Joos in a bad light) is a pathological condition, and no laughing matter. The correct feeling is pity.

Israel … hasn’t withdrawn from Gaza

These are the truth-loving people we are dealing with.

Please guys who think hamas are human watch this vid from an arab palestinian and then ask why is it the west media in gaza just dont report such things.

Please guys who think hamas are human watch this vid from an arab palestinian and then ask why is it the west media in gaza just dont report such things.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a5e_1231434273 this is the link

Sorry Alberto but the majority of Jews in the WB live in the settlements around Jerusalem. Take your faulty math and go back to the drawing board.

You suggested that settlement enlargement was due to natural population growth. I proved that’s not true. You’re now trying to change the subject to something else.

I suspect the Palestinians whose land was stolen by Jews must be relieved to learn that the thieves did not belong to the settler majority.

1. The Exterminate Israel Argentinian claims his uncited figures of Jews in the WB between 1993 and 2000 is larger than the cited figures some Swuppie writer provided for the same time period because the latter hadn’t included the settlements around Jerusalem.

2. I point out that the majority of Jews living in the WB live in settlements around Jerusalem. In other words, since the majority of all Jews in the WB live in settlements around Jerusalem, the Exterminate Israel Argentinian is lying when claiming that the difference between his uncited figures and those of the SWP writer is due to his figures including settlements around Jerusalem and hers not.

3. The Exterminate Israel Argentinian accuses me of changing the subject demonstrating his pressing need both for a politics and ideology that supports a 2 state solution and for basic comprehension skills.