Harry's Place

McRoy:

Similarly, in the wake of the events of 1967, with the defeat of the Arab states, Muslims began to abandon secular ideologies and turn to religion as a source of solace and of political resistance. The fruit of that turning was seen in 1979 with the Islamic Revolution in Iran

Whatever happens, it’s always down to the Joos, innit, boy?

Apocalypse now,
with a bang, and with a dhimmi whimper.

Some people are really really stupid

Alternatively, Nearly, McRoy is ’simply’ conflating Muslim with Arab and not imagining either to be rational creatures.

This is my favourite McRoy quote:

http://www.naba.org.uk/content/articles/Views/60728_British&_American_Ignorance_McRoy.htm

“Two years ago, at a Ramadan event in the Houses of Parliament, one young Muslim man approached me. He said he had wanted to meet me for some time, since he liked my articles. Then he made a telling observation: “We wouldn’t dare say the things you say about Al-Qaida!” I understood what he meant. As a Born-again Christian, nobody could suspect me of sympathy for Al-Qaida’s methods (which contradict every aspect of New Testament ethics) or its ultimate aim of the united Islamic caliphate. Obviously, as an academic, I can write articles giving a scholarly analysis of Al-Qaida from a detached perspective – recognising where their methods were clever and effective, even if from my moral perspective, based on the ethics of Jesus, these tactics were malign. If a Muslim attempted this, as the young man implied, he might be accused of sympathy for Al-Qaida. Hardly surprising that Muslims are wary of attempting this (and in the light of the Forest Gate raid, such fears are well-grounded – even a long beard is sufficient ground for suspicion these days).”

Fascinating post – thank you.

Sizer’s perverse hatred for Israel is actually indicative of a wider movement in the Church of England, which has become increasingly hostile to Israel. This movement includes so-called liberals such as rowan williams, and so-called conservative evangelicals such as Sizer. In turn, they have spawned a new generation of Christian anti-zionist activists, such as Ben White, the journalist who ‘understands’ anti-semitism.

The interesting book to be written would be on the increasing influence of Christian anti-zionism on UK foreign policy; from Richard Williamson to Stephen Sizer.

Yet if such criticisms can be made of a Christian theological movement which supports Israel, then there are surely legitimate concerns of a theological movement which opposes Israel, also adhered to by many Christians.

Much as I can see why there would be concerns about a Christian movement which was opposed to Israel (although in my experience there is no such movement which equals the decades of anti-Israel build-up on the British left) surely such a “theological movement” would not have the history or tradition behind it which “Christian Zionism” can appeal to? The strain of religious thought which believes in such eschatological musings is far older than the hundred years which the video indicates and may (according to thinkers like Camus) have infected Marxism as well.

I would
Love you ten years before the Flood;
And you should, if you please, refuse
Till the conversion of the Jews.

Graham – many argue that the modern Christian anti-Zionists are simply following in the tradition of Christian antisemites like Luther and Chrysostom. There is also a close link between Christian anti-Zionism and replacement theology, as Melanie Phillips points out.

The ideological basis of Christian anti-Zionism, and its modern repercussions, are dealt with extensively by Barry Horner in his book Future Israel: Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged (read online here: http://www.bunyanministries.org/books/Future%20Israel.pdf), and Paul Wilkinson in his book “For Zion’s Sake”.

Ronald E. Diprose’s book “Israel & the Church” gives you the history of replacement theology.

Here’s a review of his book as a way in:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3817/is_200112/ai_n9010161/pg_1

Sure, Alec.
Although, given that he is not terribly strong on strictly logical analysis, it needn’t be ‘alternatively’.

Much as I can see why there would be concerns about a Christian movement which was opposed to Israel (although in my experience there is no such movement which equals the decades of anti-Israel build-up on the British left) surely such a “theological movement” would not have the history or tradition behind it which “Christian Zionism” can appeal to?

There is such a movement. It’s focus is in America’s divity schools, where people train to manage the decline of mainline Protestantism. The effect is to hasten the decline, as Methodists and Lutherans wonder why the hell their church, at the elite level, is so hot to boycott Israel.

Christian zionism and zionism will do anything to lie about anything good post Seismic Shock.

Based upon Sizer’s claims that any support for Israel plays into the hands of those anxious for a Christian Zionist armaggedon, it is equally justifiable to argue that any criticism of Israel also plays into the hands of those anxious for a Shi’ite Mahdist armaggedon.

Rather put it like this…..Believing anything on the basis of some superstition, logical fallacy, bigotry….for any bad reason, is ify.

If someone happens to agree with something you agree with, for bad reasons, it may possibly be convenient, but it’s hardly consoling. And it’s morally and intellectually frustrating. Rather point out to them the error of their reasoning and good reasons to agree with you.

Such folk are as a loose cannon rolling around the deck.

Something from the ‘Baptist Times’, eh? Who even knew that sucha publication existed?
My, I’m proud to run with such an erudite and avant-garde crowd!

Writing as I do from Dhahran in Saudi Arabia, it occasionally annoys me that the noisy Christians in Europe and the U.S.A. who take sides on Middle Eastern issues ignore the well-known truth that Saudi Arabia forbids all non-Muslim worship or proselytism.

These opinionated Christian leaders obviously think that there’s no point bothering making a fuss about the restrictions which ignorant brown-skinned goatherds impose on Christian sojourners in Arabia and that the million-plus believing Christians living and working in Saudi Arabia are people of no importance.

‘Yet in reality, apocalyptic dispensationalism is only one factor in Christian support for Israel’
Probably a very important factor, and also one of some historical importance.Orde Wingate was raised in the ‘apocalyptic dispensationalism’ of the Plymouth Brethren- and of course, with his formation of settler night squads , imbued into the embryonic IDF the importance of getting your retaliation in first.The ‘Croppies lie down’ mentality taken from the Protestant ascendancy and grafted into the Levant- permanently, it would appear, given recent events in Gaza.

If you look up this creep you will find that he is allied with Holocaust deniers, David Duke, and a whole host of other anti-Semites. He tries to hide these facts, but you can find traces of them all over the internet. His sermons must just be tons of fun.

Interviewer: Do you think that the world will allow that kind of ethnic cleansing? [i.e., of the Palestinians]

Martin van Creveld, Israeli military historian: That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force.
(Much was made by anti-Semites of this quote when it appeared in Sharon’s days. Point is, is it genuine?)

Many of the religious leaders of Iran believe in Shi’ite Mahdism[...]

Try ALL. Belief in the Imamate and the return of the Hidden Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, are part of the 12er Shi’ah creed.

[...]and share a belief with Christian Zionists that global warfare will precede the return of Jesus.

The belief in a global conflict is not peculiar to Christian Zionists. Christians who subscribe to the concept of the Bible’s infallibility would likely support the idea of some sort of global conflagration as part of the End Times.

Like the Christian Zionists, Islamist Mahdists couple their religious beliefs with intervention in global politics.

There are no doubt some Iranian, Azerbaijani and Iraqi politicians, who are stronger proponents of Mahdism than others, but the fact is that all 12er Shi’ites and most Sunnis believe in the return of the Mahdi. Moreover, whether one subscribes to this tradition or not, a literal reading of the Qur’an and Muhammadan tradition attests to the conflict of Gog and Magog (Jooj and Majooj), an Antichrist figure (al-Masih ad-Dajjal), the return of Christ and the rise of the Mahdi as Christ’s vicegerent. The majority of Muslims, therefore, could be said to be in some way Mahdists.

Interesting post though.

“In recent years however, Anglican vicar Stephen Sizer has made a name for himself by exaggerating the power and influence of the Christian Zionist movement, even claiming that it keeps US and Israeli politicians in power.”

This is an extension of the antisemitic claim by W&M of huge Zionist lobby controlling the US.

Both claims are crap and are based on the assumption that any support for the Jewish State is illegitimate.

Vicar Sizer is Jew hating bigot and an asshole and I wish I could say that to his face.

Let him remember that the blood libel claims against the Jews in Europe began among Christian in merry old England.

Religious folk being bigots? Will wonders ever cease?

During WW2, shared anti-Semitism helped the Nazis to recruit collaborators all over occupied Europe. Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism play much the same role today and it is through hatred of Jews and Israel that the Islamists have been able to recruit most of their friends among the non-Muslims. And of course, many believe there’s no fundamental contradiction between a 7th century religious theocracy and a post-Enlightenment worldview. Thus, the only thing that stands between the Islamists and the West, the one obstacle to their reconciliation, are the Jews. Throw these under the bus and there’ll be perpetual peace in this world and in the next one too.

Prosaist -(Much was made by anti-Semites of this quote when it appeared in Sharon’s days. Point is, is it genuine?)

I’ll let you guess.

Whatever your answer is I feel sure that it is the right answer for you.

Great post Mordechai – you are amazing

Sizer is an antisemite who has said “Zionism is a form of Racism”.

Mordechai of “Seismic Shock” is doing a public service by trailing him and exposing him.

Sizer is one of those clueless *interfaith* fans. That is, he talks to Muslims about the evil Jews at every chance he gets. He’s mistaken as well as to the motivation of most Christians who support Israel. It has very little to do with armaggedon, and a lot to do with sympathy and friendship.

And one wonders why the CofE hasn’t stepped in to tune this guy up.

Have they lost their senses altogether?

I find this all baffling. Will someone please explain to me WHO these Christian zionists are (names please) and why specifically their belief in the second coming vindicates modern-day Israel? Or how (exactly) it influences US politics on Israel?

Sorry, but I don’t get the connection between the belief in the second coming (a minority view) and all that is being imputed to it.

The Baptist article and this post are full of paranoid innuendo and short on hard facts.

Devorgilla,

Point taken.

There is a lot of support for Israel in the U.S.A. Are many of these supporters Christian? Yes.

Do a lot of them hold specific beliefs about the End Times? Yes.

Is their support for Israel only due to their interpretation of Biblical prophecy? I doubt it. This will vary from individual to individual, and it is hard to generalise the entire movement.

Here is the Christian Zionist response to a declaration condemning their movement:
http://www.christian-zionism.org/analysis_articles_body.asp?Title=Joint+Response+to+%22The+Jerusalem+Declaration+of+Christian+Zionism%22

Of these points, point #6 is extremely noteworthy:

“6. Sadly there have been no meetings between the Jerusalem clerics and their Christian Zionist counterparts. We invite such a dialogue and consider it a biblical prerequisite. We are distressed that a public denunciation has occurred first. We feel that we have been treated with disrespect and disdain, and attacked by the issuing of these public declarations. They present themselves as lovers of justice, mercy, truth and peace! This public attack seems lacking in these qualities.”

thanks for that link Mordechai. But I am still no clearer to understanding the precise institutional effect.

Clearly there is a minority theology in the vast kaleidoscopic spectrum of Christian belief called ‘Christian Zionism’ that is misrepresented by its detractors, both in its specific content and in its intentions for Israel today.

It is sufficiently well enough defined for SOME people claiming to adhere to this view to put up a website trying to define their theological position with some precision.

But are those calling themselves ‘Christian Zionists’ or called ‘Christian Zionists’ by others, adhering with exactitude to these views?

I doubt it.

But more important from our secular point of view, is what, specifically, are these folks doing individually or as any kind of organisation to tilt the policy of the USA?

This whole thing is a chimera I’m afraid.

I can’t honestly see that those who believe in the second coming therefore believe ‘xi’ and ‘xii’ and ‘xiii’ etc., and therefore do ‘y’.

Like all theological beliefs it’s a very individual thing, part of a spectrum and not the same for everyone, and what I’m asking about, if we’re to tar this viewpoint as dangerous, is what specifically is an alleged political lobby doing that it dangerous, and if anyone who self-defines themselves as a Christian Zionist or is accused of it by others, is therefore guilty of this dangerous ‘offence’.

Devorgilla,

I agree with much of what you’ve said – my point in this blogpost was to show that Stephen Sizer et al can’t very well criticise one theological movement for being apocalyptic whilst helping out another.

As for Christian Zionists in the U.S., they come in all different theological shapes and sizes (Dan Cohn Sherbok gives a fair analysis of them in his book Politics of the Apocalypse). It is true they have political lobbies, but so does every group!

Christian Friends of Israel and Anglican Friends of Israel here in the U.K. are recommendable organisations.