Harry's Place

‘Anti-semitism is no longer a left-wing concern.’

- If generally so (there are honourable exceptions), could you put a date on it?

What a vile human being. Wish there was something that could be done

Pitt, of course, posts here notcognito.

“Anti-semitism is no longer a left-wing concern”

Now there’s a sentence I am not happy to read, after having argued in several places that HP is careful to differentiate between morons like Bob Pitt and “the left” in general*. I don’t suppose you could see your way clear, perhaps after taking a brisk walk, to rephrasing that sentence so that it says something a bit more sensible?

I understand that you would like to see more prominent expressions of outrage by left-wingers against antisemitism on the left, hence you can say that “the left” isn’t as concerned with antisemitism as it ought to be. And I agree: I wish “the left” made more of a fuss about antisemitic nutjobs on “the left”. You could say that antisemitism is not a ’cause celebre’ on the left right now, which I don’t think anybody could deny. But if that’s what you mean, you haven’t expressed it very clearly, because what you’ve written can (and probably will) be taken as asserting that left wingers in general are untroubled by antisemitism, which is just not true. I know anecdotes are not data, but most of the people I know would call themselves left wing, and they’d all take the same view of Pitt as you do. Your conclusion to this post is worryingly close to saying, for example, “anybody who marched against Op Lead Cast was supporting Hamas”, which is the sort of demented position that your critics like to attribute to you (and I suspect this post will be used as more “evidence” of that sort).

* It’s one thing to argue there are too many morons on the left, that moronism is tolerated more than it should be, and that too many morons are given newspaper columns and leadership of anti-war movements. It’s another thing to paint the left in general as morons.

I do not think that tolerance of anti-semitism (and in fact, actual anti-semitism) is restricted to the far Left. I think that it is part of centre-Left thinking.

That is not to say that:

- this is not so on important parts of the centre Right; or

- that there are none on the Left who are troubled by anti-semtism.

But, although opposition to racism generally is a defining Left attitude, anti-semitism has basically become non-core. You can have friends and allies who are anti-semites, or perhaps be a little bit worried about Jewish Power yourself, and still be on the Left. Not the far Left. The centre Left.

How about this.

The Times – a centre right newspaper – covered the Qaradawi sermon.

The Guardian – a centre left newspaper – did not.

Ditto the Indie

Similarly, The Telegraph and the Mail reported on the senior FCO diplomat, arrested for shouting about killing the “fucking Jews” in a gym.

By contrast, the Guardian and Indie did not.

These are major stories. One involves the FCO’s senior expert of South Asia. The other involves pretty much the most famous and popular cleric in the Middle East, whose religious rulings are treated as authoritative by Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Ignored by the centre-Left.

David,

I am not disputing that – I agree what we find ourselves in the (grotesque) position where papers on the left choose not to write about this sort of thing. And this is bad, of course I agree. There are a number of available explanations as to how this has come about. I don’t take issue with you about that.

I just think that when you make blanket statements like “antisemitism is no longer a left wing concern” you shoot yourself in the foot. Writing things like that will have to nutjobs whooping with agreement, and moderate left-wingers, whom I’d have thought is the audience you’d most care about, react negatively because it looks very much like you are accusing them of being unconcerned by antisemitism.

Luis Enrique,

taking your point, suppose that anti-Jewish racism IS of concern, then surely we’d see some evidence of this?

I have asked this question before.

with a few exceptions, I can’t find many examples that much of the British Left is terribly concerned with the outbreak of violent antisemitic incidents in the past 2 months.

Isn’t that the problem?

Maybe I am wrong, but please do correct me if you can, where are the reports on the Synagogue desecrated in Venezuela? Or the problem of antisemitic graffiti? etc

If I were to read the major British Left web sites would I see them? Or do sites provide access to CST reports on these events? unlikely

Still, you will remember a few years back when the Parliamentary report on antisemitism came out?

It was attacked all over the place, yet reports of Jews getting physically assaulted in Britain doesn’t.

Surely that is the issue?

What’s in this for Bob Pitt? What does he get out of running a website dedicated to supporting and defending Islamists?

I’m being polemical

But I also think that there has been an important shift on the Left. I don’t think that the Left defines itself in terms of opposition to anti-semitism. It is very sensitive to racism, generally. So much so, in fact, that it very obviously self-censors in order to avoid discussing racism when its source is other than white, or ‘establishment’.

However, I honestly do believe that a variety of factors have made anti-semitism entirely respectable in the mainstream Left. The two main ones are as follows:

1. Mearsheimer and Walt have, whatever their intentions, licensed a popular version of “Jewish Power” conspiracy theorising.

2. Treating Hamas as part of an anti-colonial struggle has resulted in the routine ‘contextualising’ or ignoring of Islamist anti-semitism, which has made anti-semitism an issue that no longer rings alarm bells for many on the centre Left.

I’ll give you two examples.

First, discussing with Georgina Henry, why she’d have an Islamist anti-semite writing for CiF but not Nick Griffin. She simply could not see the parallel.

Secondly, Stephen Timms MP’ decision to speak at a conference at which an outspoken Holocaust denier was also speaking, as a keynote speaker. He did not even condemn this man’s views.

We’re in a weird situation in British politics at the moment. There are a number of senior Tories who are decidedly “realist” when it comes to foreign policy. And there are senior Labour politicians – Hazel Blears for example – who are the polar opposite of Stephen Timms.

But I think that there are no Tories who would be relaxed with anti-semitism, in the way that many on the centre Left are.

I’d like to moot the idea of organising a whipround to enable Quradawi to achieve his life-long ambition. What do you think? (Except, that one wouldn’t want ordinary people in the street/restaurant/bus to get hurt.).

maybe Bob Pitt thinks Qaradawi meant this

I think the term “centre left” is too ill-defined. There’s a difference between what mainstream left wing newspapers choose to publish, and what most actually existing centre left wing individuals think, and a big difference again between what prominent left wing activist organizations say and who they ally with, and what most actually existing centre left wingers think.

I apologise for the social scientist jargon (but this is genuinely how I think and what a “precise” statement means to me) – if you were to draw a graph with some measure of “attitude towards antisemitism” on the x-axis, and “how many people” on the y-axis, where are you saying the bulk of the distribution would be? (imagine a normal distribution – where’s the mean, in your view?) If by “centre left” you mean “average lefty” then I think you are wrong that “has friends and allies who are anti-semites, or perhaps be a little bit worried about Jewish Power” is where, on the x-axis, the bulk of lefties would be located on such a graph. I think that attitude would be somewhere on the extreme left of the distribution, and the bulk of the distribution would be over “strongly disapproves of antisemitism”.

If, however, you are talking about expressions of notionally left-wing opinion in the media, or such like, then I think that’s a different matter altogether.

Luis Enrique

All I have to go on is what newspapers, NGOs and so on, say and do.

The “average Leftie” isn’t in a position to make alliances, publish newspapers, and so on.

You may well be right. Ordinary Left wing people, who aren’t Jews, may be utterly horrified at the present situation.

Perhaps we’re on the verge of seeing a progressive centre-Left revolution, which turns on those who ignored and apologised for anti-semitism.

What do you think?

Luis Enrique,

as an obvious academic, surely it is best to base our views on evidence?

if we were to scan the British Left’s media and web sites we’d probably see a fair amount of coverage on feminism, right to choose, even some on trade union issues, etc

but what we would hardly see is coverage of the most recent violent antisemitic incidents in Britain

so it is reasonable to deduce that, whilst a broad historical opposition to vulgar antisemitism is there, when it comes to the lives of real Jews and real people that does not somehow fit neatly into the current discourse on the British Left

that’s what the evidence is suggesting, with a few notable exceptions

What’s in this for Bob Pitt? What does he get out of running a website dedicated to supporting and defending Islamists?

Since this is a leftist blog, a warning is obligatory. Please have your garlic and crosses ready, in case the first sight of this video gives your committed leftist soul the heebiejeebies.

Evan Sayet’s “joke” early on, about hating one’s wife, carries most of the point, but he doesn’t use the operative word until more than 30 minutes in.

Which is: scratch a leftist, find a nihilist.

Is Pitt still on the payroll of the London municipality? If so, does anyone actually check on what he does during working hours?

Hah – no, I don’t expect that revolution. And I wouldn’t object to a careful argument that perhaps ordinary left wing people (as opposed to journalists, NGOs) are too complacent about antisemitism or such like. I’m not going to express this idea very well, but what people care about operates something like fashion, attention is blinkered, and as you say, opposition to antisemitism is not hot right now on the left.

I don’t think I’m really disagreeing on substance. My argument is that polemics are counter productive. Too many people will read this post and think: “there goes HP again, accusing everyone on the left of being antisemitic”. (I’d bet my left nut that some of your well-known critics would write just that, if they notice this post). It’s all very well saying that if that’s what they think, then they have misunderstood you, or whatever, but how your message is received matters, regardless of the whys and wherefores. Lots of people hate this site, because, for instance, they opposed the invasion or Iraq and they feel that you accused them personally of being Saddam apologists etc. (you know that, right?). I think the cumulative rhetorical effect of this site does you no favours. Far too many people think of HP as the site that was, for example, a cheerleader for Israel bombing Gaza, or as the site where anti-war is equated with pro-terrorist, and so on. Half the blame for this state of affairs lies with these people not bothering to read what you actually write or, in some cases, being somewhat unhinged themselves. But half the blame (in my humble opinion lies) with the use of what you might call “polemics”. People who already agree with you might like it, but people who do not are likely to react badly. I think.

[But what do I know - this is just the way I see it, and there's a good chance I'm wrong. I'm like a broken record on this last point: far too many people have far too much confidence in their own opinions].

modernity, I’ve got no real beef with your argument, it’s just that when arguments about the “discourse” (ugh! I’m not an arts academic) get mixed up with accusations about real people, then people take umbrage.

Luis Enrique

It isn’t Harry’s Place has caused what looks very much like an international blossoming of anti-semitism. And the centre-Left’s – at the best – ambivalent attitude towards that.

Eamonn McDonagh writes about substantially the same issues, but from Argentina. The same thing is happening in Argentina as is happening on the British Left.

We’re not a campaigning organisation. This is a personal blog.

What is happening is global, and is largely unopposed.

David T
With the greatest of respect, I think you are talking about more the London Centre Left then, say, up here in The Capricious Universe’s Own County of Yorkshire. Am very active in Labour Politics and have never witnessed anti-semitism being tolerated.

Could this be more of a Metropolitan thing?

David … well I agree with all that. But I don’t quite see how that relates what I’m suggesting about the potential consequences of polemics etc. Do you agree that many people on the left react to HP in the way that I described? Isn’t that reaction something you might wish to avoid?

Point taken about Argentina but I was writing in specific reference to London.

(Why do I get the feeling am about to have several examples countering my point thrust my way?)

Too many people will read this post and think: “there goes HP again, accusing everyone on the left of being antisemitic”.

If they do Luis then surely Mr T’s next post will be “reading whatever is actually written is no longer a left-wing concern.” You do not have to be antisemitic to have stopped being concerned about this particular form of racism and there is a far larger constituency of people who consider themselves casually “off the left” than there are manic Leninist bloggers. If it has becone an unthinking accepted trope that “antisemitism is not a concern of leftists” (most often backed up in my experience by something along the lines of: “The Jews have nothing to complain about, it isn’t 1942 anymore” then we will have reached a pretty pass won’t we? And some of us will be questioning how less than 30 years back we went to SWP demos carrying placards which read “Never again”.

What I am suggesting, plainly, is that it is dangerous to remove something which has such a long and sordid history from the conciousness of progressives lest it creep back up on later (as, I would suggest, is bound to happen.)

That should have been “of the left” of course – the argument that leninist bloggers have fallen “off the left” would be a whole different ballgame.

I hope so.

But, as I said, this seems to be happening in other countries at all. Perhaps only in “Metropolitan” parts of other countries…

A good test would be this. Do national anti-racist organisations have anything to say about Islamist anti-semitic incidents?

Unite Against Fascism does not. Searchlight has very occasionally mentioned it.

What is the position in other countries?

Luis Enrique

Polemics, no polemics; there is a real issue here.

Opposing anti-semitism is not an issue for mainstream centre-Left (let alone hard Left) organisations. There are exceptions to that rule, but they’re pretty rare.

Yeah, I think you’re probably right. Gnashing ones teeth won’t change the status quo. But neither will patient, polite advocacy.

At the moment, I think the best thing that Jews can do is to be aware of what is happening, and for us to keep our wits about us.

Why do I get the feeling am about to have several examples countering my point thrust my way

Possibly.

For example, in Rochdale, the Zion Baptist Church has been attacked twice by “youths”. Most recently, the pastor of the Church was attacked on the day of his dad’s funeral

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/community-news/19846/gang-of-youths-attack-pastor-and-his-church-again

Does Birmingham count as northern or non-Metropolitan? Probably not. Still…

“A Birmingham school is investigating reports that 20 children chased a 12-year-old girl, its only Jewish pupil, chanting “Kill all Jews” and “Death to Jews”. In another incident a Jewish schoolgirl reported being bullied at a non-Jewish school because of the Gaza conflict.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/police-patrols-antisemitism-jewish-community

Graham,

Again, I agree with you, and I said above, many of your critics appear not to actually read what’s written here, or at least interpret it in a peculiar fashion.

David, I guess I’m saying that patient polite advocacy is more likely to win people over than stronger arguments that have a regrettable tendency to be received as: HP is calling all anti-war lefties “terrorist-loving antisemites”. This seems to be the dominant view of HP at a great many left wing blogs.

I don’t deny that there’s a real issue here, I’m trying to suggest that sometimes this site can be a little tone deaf: anything that even looks like you are accusing left wingers of not caring about antisemitism, is just bound to be received badly by most left wingers, because most left wingers think that they do care about antisemitism, most likely because they do actually care, and don’t like being told they don’t. And I think you can make the points you wish to make without rubbing people up the wrong way. Again, I could be wrong – perhaps strong words do win people over more than polite advocacy, and I am paying too much attention to my own preference for it, and to people like … well, best not to mention names … who object so strenuously to HP, mostly on the basis that they feel that you have personally slighted them.

“then people take umbrage.”

Luis Enrique,

well, either way that could happen?

I suppose that if HP came out against malaria then would others automatically define themselves with reference to HP and suddenly become “pro-malaria”?

I somehow doubt it, but I see your point and I would argue that HP should concentrate less on personalities, petty disputes and aim for the bigger picture.

I didn’t agree with the snide comments aimed at Sunny Hundel, whatever my disagreements with his views, but then I don’t run HP.

I think criticism of Bob Pitt and his organisation is legitimate, simply because that is Pitt’s method towards others, and reminding Pitt that he is defending Al-Qaradhawi’s racism is worthwhile, politically speaking.

the wider question of the contemporary British Left’s laziness towards anti-Jewish racism still needs to be addressed.

a similar discussion took place on Engage and Saul made the astute point:

“The left have a mixed history of anti-fascism (but, successful in the UK). They have been less successful on antisemitism. In fact, the left have never theorised antisemitism adequately. Where are the great books of left critiques of antisemitism? Leon? Engels? Austrian-Marxists? None of the above. One has to wonder why this is the case. It places the present failure into some form of historical and political context.”

http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/as-british-jews-come-under-attack-the-liberal-left-must-not-remain-silent/

I love the MEMRI bashing too. “How dare you quote our boys accuaretly!”

many of your critics appear not to actually read what’s written here, or at least interpret it in a peculiar fashion.

It really is their problem, because over the long-term an attempt to falsify what is said here just isn’t going to work. Fair-minded people with a sustained interest in the issues will (as you yourself seem to have done) work out where the falsification lies.

As for those who are not fair-minded who needs them on the left? They can vanish right up their own arseholes chanting “the end justifies the means.”

because most left wingers think that they do care about antisemitism, most likely because they do actually care, and don’t like being told they don’t.

I am certain that this is so.

However, the bottom line is this. There are no significant “institutions of the Left” that have campaigned against Islamist anti-semitism at all.

In fact, that isn’t true. Peter Tatchell did campaign around Qaradawi. He was vilified publicly – and at public expense – for doing do as a racist. Peter says that prior to the Qaradawi affair, he was routinely invited to participate in conferences by Trade Unions and other ‘organs of the Left’. He says that the invitations dried up in the wake of his campaign.

So, yes, your average Left wing identifying person would certainly be opposed to Hitler and Nazism. He would also probably very quickly add that this is why he find it particularly terrible that Jews have become the new Nazis. Faced with evidence of Islamist anti-semitism, domestically or abroad, he’d deplore but contextualise it, while pointing out that this is the terrible side effect of Israel’s Nazi like policy of genocide. He might also add that Zionists routinely accuse people of anti-semitism, to silence their critics and scare Jews into emigrating to Israel: so is it any surprise that people aren’t listening to concerns about anti-semitism now. Oh, and it isn’t nearly as bad as it was in the past, and Jews are better off than pretty much all other immigrant groups: but more likely to be hysterical.

Talking about this quietly and politely has worked no better than screaming.

There isn’t going to be a turn around.

Unite Against Fascism isn’t going to run a campaign on this issue.

Nobody is about to start an anti-racist organisation that takes anti-semitism seriously.

It isn’t going to get funding from Trade Unions.

There won’t be speaking tours of British Universities.

Now, I’d love to be wrong about all of this. I’d love it if I woke up tomorrow and found that a coalition to combat anti-semitism had been formed by senior Labour politicians, trade unionists, NGOs, and so on.

But this isn’t going to happen, whether I shout or whisper about this issue. It just isn’t.

OK, well I don’t think there’s much more to say …. but I can’t help myself: David are you really sure that your average left wing identifying person would “probably very quickly add … that Jews have become the new Nazis”? My feeling is that you are wrong, but that’s just my guess about an empirical question*. However, if you are wrong, and the average left winger would say no such thing, then conditional on that, can you appreciate why the average left winger would object to their portrayal on this site?

* How much money has Engage got? How much would a credible poll of left wingers cost? Questions like “do you agree/disagree with statement that “the Jews are acting like the Nazis in Palestine”?”

If you want to understand what you are dealing with, look here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddietruman/

Oh, come on. What have people like Pitt got to do with the Left anyway? Islamisers have simply gone over to the fash. Admit it, and live with it, and make sure we’re never on the same side of the barricades.

Not much at all. It doesn’t have the money to put polls in the field.

And obviously, I can’t tell whether letters written to the newspapers, things that politicians say, comments on CIF, callers to phone in shows, and so on, are representative of anything other than, erm, the sort of people who do these things.

What I think you can say is that people who feel this way, are emboldened to say so publicly.

By contrast, those who strongly oppose that sort of rhetoric are pretty quiet, and are unsupported by significant Left-identifying NGOs and other institutions.

The trouble is, the majority of people who are really worried by anti-semitism are Jews. Those who aren’t Jews, have some other connection to Jews: that they’re going out with somebody who is Jewish, or they have a Jewish relative, or they’re mistaken for a Jew, or what have you. And when Jews complain about anti-semitism, they’re generally thought to up “up to something”.

Bob Pitts position, like that of his mentor, ex Mayor Ken, is that everything Memri publishes is lies. Therefore no matter what Qaradawi says and even if he is televised saying it, and however accurate the translation is, if it is published by Memri it will automically be dismissed as lies.

Do we have any arabists here who can translate it for us independently?

Luis Enrique,

is there any need for a survey? rather unconscious actions speak louder then considered answers to surveys

if British Left web sites and media can’t be bothered to report from the CST on racial attacks on Jews then that says it all, without the need for surveys

however, now the Guardian has written an editorial I would expect a slight, temporary improvement, some articles deploring these attacks, etc but I doubt any real analysis of anti-Jewish racism, its antecedents and how Soviet “anti-Zionism” has influence much of today’s thinking, even at an unconscious level, will be forth coming.

“however, now the Guardian has written an editorial I would expect a slight, temporary improvement”

The editorial was written, I believe, by Jonathan Freedland.

I tend to think people like Pitt are simply corrupt flacks and do whatever smear they have to for their bosses to keep the money flowing. Sorry, being a totalitarian flack for cash isn’t “left wing”. Galloway isn’t “left”, he’s a thug who uses the left. Same with Pitt.

I would be interested to hear what strategy for combatting anti-semitism might work.

Any thoughts?

I think that Pitt has gone native:

“..He doesn’t dispute the MEMRI translation. How could he? The translation is accurate, and Bob Pitt – with his connections in Islamist politics – will certainly know this to be so.

“Instead, he simply pretends that they haven’t been spoken, slurs MEMRI in a non specific way, and then goes on to link to a quotation from Qaradawi in which he tells Neturei Karta:..”

This selective memory or wilful ignoring of facts is the strong suit of Islamists and their sympathisers. If they say that they didn’t say it (in spite of the fact that they said it in front of witnesses) then it wasn’t said. The really sick aspect of this is that they believe their own lies.

I would be interested to hear what strategy for combatting anti-semitism might work.

Showing Curb and Seinfeld at reasonable hours on mainstream TV channels.

Showing anti-Semites the league table and pointing to Tottenham’s position as an example of how Jews don’t control the world. More’s the pity

I would be interested to hear what strategy for combatting anti-semitism might work.

The organisations that once served to combat anti-semitism such as trade unions and left-wing political groups will have to be completely rebuilt from the ground up.

However, The West’s Muslim communities, the source of most anti-semitism and the objects of sympathy on the part of anti-semitic leftwingers these days, are growing so quickly that I doubt we’ll have time to do that.

I would also suspect that moderate rightish nationalists could help in this restructuring in that they, too, are in the crosshairs of Islamists, albeit not to the same extent as Jews.

The Jewish community itself has to rethink its left-wing alliances, alliances that no long function, obviously, as well as its associations with its traditional friends such as Searchlight and other ‘anti-racist’ outfits.

Left-wingers hate Israel and that hatred spills over into generalised anti-semitism.

One should look, thus, for allies among groups that support Israel, even if they do not do so unconditionally, because if one generally supports Israel, then the chances are they’ll support moves to counter anti-semitism.

Moderate and conservative MAINSTREAM Christians, the ones so often reviled by leftists, are your best bet.

Finally, and I don’t wish to sound cruel, but I think the attitudes and opinions of the left-wing, secular Jews who’ve dominated and defined the meaning of ‘racism’ and anti-semitism for decades now, who continue to do so, but whose opinions are now outmoded, have a certain responsability for this mess.

They’ve made a lot of hay talking up visible minorities, religious minorities and denigrating Christains and Whites in general.

They’ve kept us fixated on anti-racism’s ‘front door’ of neo-nazis and skinheads, and in the meantime the new anti-semites scurried in though the back entrance.

Many high-profile and even iconic Jews on the left now appear about as avant-guard and as up to date as saddle-shoes.

They seem singularly unable to adapt and to re-adjust to rapidly changing demographic circumstances.

You really don’t get it do you ‘oh men of the left’. Socialists have never trusted Israel, dare I say it, the Jews.
The 80s was my ‘left’ era, and the anti-semitism was rampant, thats why I left the ‘left’, sure they were not going around defacing synagogues or assaulting Jews but they hated America and bought easily into the ‘Jews run America’ bullshit and quite frankly they still do believe that nonsense.
Sure there are Some on the left who ‘get’ this, and are quite worried about this obvious trend of, if not quite out and out anti-semitic acts by the left, but certainly silent tolerance of anti-semitism, but most don’t, seriously. Most of the left really believe they are good socialists and defenders of the little people.
There is no other way to say this but you only have yourselves to blame, the aligning of the Left with the Islamist lunatics has set back left wing ideology decades. I don’t know how many of you mix with ordinary people (I don’t mean people who attend political meetings) but ordinary people who make up the vast majority of the population of the UK, because there appears to be a Very, Very worrying shift away from liberal thinking and it ‘IS’ (no matter how much you may not want it to be true) related directly to the rise of radical Islam.

I think this fact may have dawned on some of you ‘oh men of the Left’, lets hope its not to late to stop this runaway train because remember the straw that broke the camels back in the Thirties was economic turndown, a People who thought they were victims and fanatics who blamed the Jews.

“Sheikh Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi: Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the [Jews] people who would punish them for their corruption. The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place. This was divine punishment for them. Allah willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers.
[...]”

“Anti-semitism is no longer a left-wing concern.’

Funny Rabbi Ovadia Yosef head of the Shas party said pretty much teh same thing about Holocaust victims . Dont think he’s left wing
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/rabbi-says-holocaust-victims-were-reincarnations-of-sinners-711547.html

And dont get me started about the things he and other extremist Jews have said about Arabs/Muslims

But some anti-semtism is OK in David T’s eyes

,em>I love the MEMRI bashing too. “How dare you quote our boys accuaretly!”,/em>

Quite. I had a lengthy discussion/argument on Delphi forums with someone who ridiculed Memri and their translations. After I’d pointed out an article by Brian Whitaker in which even he admitted – albeit grudgingly – Memri’s translation are “usually accurate”, the poster still could not bring himself to condemn the racist filth broadcast on mainstream ME TV channels.

I love the MEMRI bashing too. “How dare you quote our boys accuaretly!”

Quite. I had a lengthy discussion/argument on Delphi forums with someone who ridiculed Memri and their translations. After I’d pointed out an article by Brian Whitaker in which even he admitted – albeit grudgingly – Memri’s translation are “usually accurate”, the poster still could not bring himself to condemn the racist filth broadcast on mainstream ME TV channels.

I don’t think the issue is as clear-cut as you say, because Qaradawi has made many moderate, pluralistic statements that show a tremendous desire for peaceful coexistence of the three Abrahamic faiths.

For example, he has opposed the idea of Muslim supremacy over other religions:

“The Koran states that [religious] disagreement exists because God [himself] wills it … that people will have different religions. After all, if God had wanted everyone to have the same religion and the same path, he would have created Man differently … the [believing Muslim] does not try to pass judgment upon those who disagree [with his religion] in this world. God is the one who will pass judgment on the day of resurrection…”

He highlights the universalist and progressive message of Mohammed that all are equal in the eyes of God:

Islam honors Man as such, regardless of gender, religion, color, language, geographic region, or status … [People] said to God’s Messenger: ‘This is the funeral of a Jew. That coffin belongs to a Jew, not a Muslim.’ He answered: ‘Is this not a soul [too]? Is the Jew not a human soul?’

Perhaps what infuriates some Western opinion about Qaradawi is that he pins the blame for modern anti-Semitism where it belongs – on Europe’s long history of intolerance:

“We did not invent this hostility [towards the Jews]. Jews lived among Muslims for centuries, even when Europe persecuted them and expelled them… They found a safe haven in Muslim territory and Muslim homelands. This is because Islam considers the Jews to be People of the Book … This is how the Koran views the Jews, and this is how they lived in the countries of the Muslims. They have the protection [dhimma] of Allah, His Messenger, and of all the Muslims.”

Relationships between Muslims and Jews have been poisoned by Zionism and the criminal occupation of Muslim lands:

“The battle between us and the Jews began when they occupied the land of Palestine, expelled its residents, and perpetrated all their deeds. They are the ones who started the hostility, not us… There is a difference between Judaism as a religion and Zionism as a political movement with aspirations and goals.”

Qaradawi does something that Western Islamophobes often claim is never done amongst Islamic scholars – he historically contextualizes the controversial parts of the Koran which it is claimed make Islam a violent religion:

“This verse [Koran 5:82] talks about an historical position. Islam accepted the Jews with open arms and welcomed [the Muslims'] relations with them, since they are People of the Book … Here [in the verse], Islam is talking about those that did this [i.e. who violated the pact with Muhammad]. However, Islam welcomes those who believe in the [Jewish] religion. Moreover, the Jews are probably the closest to Muslims in terms of faith and law, even more than Christians.”

Qaradawi argues that minorities would have nothing to fear in a Muslim-majority state:

“Respect for the dictations of [other] religions and faiths is one of the most fundamental things for us. We don’t get involved in their affairs… Islam is at the top of the tolerance scale; it allows one to do what is forbidden to Muslims, if it is permitted [in one's owns religion], such as eating pork and drinking wine… Protecting the ahl al-dhimma is a duty incumbent upon the Muslims. They must protect them before they protect Muslims. Muslim clerics have said that harming a dhimmi is worse than harming a Muslim. Slandering a dhimmi is worse than slandering a Muslim, since he is considered to be under the Muslims’ charge.”

Now, I understand that you may not like the man. Certainly he has said some pretty objectionable things about the Holocaust. But you must recognise him as a moderating influence with many good and progressive things to say about the possibility of peaceful coexistence between the West and the Muslim world. That is why he was invited to London by the far-seeing Ken Livingstone, and why we must listen to him today, with politeness and genuine good will, understanding that sometimes the kernel of truth that he states can be temporarily obscured, alas, by the shell of bitterness and resentment at the hideous oppression of his people by Israel and the West.

I have instinctive sympathy with Luis Enrique. I’ve spent my political life on the left and still see myself on the left, on the entire raft of issues that historically divided the political spectrum. It is difficult to internalise the fact that those who, ostensibly, are in “your” camp include such a high proportion of haters and bigots. When I was exposed for the first time to an explicit, extreme anti-Semitic bilge from a “centre-left” quarter (if you ask, at a ward meeting of Labour party. And if you ask again, the words “Israel” or “Zionism” weren’t mentioned in the tirade in question), I took it bloody hard. Now I increasingly take it for granted.

I don’t try to say, Luis Enrique, that the majority of centre-left is anti-Semitic. Frankly, none of us has access to statistics and, insofar as my gut feeling is concerned, it is not true. But there is substantial minority of centre-left, inclusive of many in the media, which is contaminated with anti-Semitism to various degrees.

One of the worst things about it is the state of denial. Unlike the right, the left is composed of self-defined “nice” people. Ostensibly anti-racists, ostensibly with their anti-racist antennae well developed. For the right it is easy to hate the “others” and do so explicitly. For leftists hatred is more subtle, but it doesn’t make it any better – to the contrary. The idea is to hate, but never, absolutely never admit to yourself that you do so.

Go and have a look to the reactions to Jonathan Friedland’s piece on this very same subject in The Guardian and you’ll see the following defence mechanisms:

• There is no left anti-Semitism, you are just making it up;

• Cries of anti-Semitism must be automatically considered as a Zionist plot, used whenever somebody criticises Israel, and should be disregarded;

• What do you mean I am an anti-Semite? Harold Pinter and Noam Chomsky are my heros. Any Jew that publicly recants the Zionist plot will be forgiven his/her existence;

• Yes, of course, anti-Semitism exists. It is a regrettable, yet understandable (and indeed inevitable) reaction to the behaviour of Israelis and their sympathisers (i.e. Jews). The Jews are to blame for anti-Semitism!

All this, Luis Enrique, is painfully real. How do we deal with it?

HPhypocrite your words and the words of some of your co-religionists no longer have any impact, all your rhetoric is now simply echos of a past that has been revived in the minds of some and has been rejected by the minds of most.

Your refusal and the refusal of some of your fellow believers to accept this is the year 2009 and not 636 C.E. will without doubt end in tears for you and your ilk but not, I fear, before a whole generation have once again been subjected to the horrors of war.

You and people like you Always make the same mistake of thinking that ‘They Don’t Want To Fight’ means the same as ‘They Will Not Fight’. That is the tragedy of the present impasse, with regards to Radical Islam and the rest of the planet.

The Majority of the west has a system of democracy that allows “the people” to choose which leaders it wants to represent them for a given period of time and I think that You, People like you and a large proportion of the left are in for quite a shock come election time.

Oh yes and just a thought are YOU saying the MEMRI translation is Zionist mistranslation, because if you are why don’t you just have self respect, and obvious conviction of your beliefs that people like yourself bleat on about constantly and admit thats what you think. Just for once can ‘You’ and people ‘You’ have the guts to say what you mean, well? will you? no I didn’t think so, no matter “Truth Will Out”.

“The battle between us and the Jews began when they occupied the land of Palestine, expelled its residents, and perpetrated all their deeds

Bollocks! Lying scum!

It started when Jews rejected Mohammed as their Prophet and Islam as their religion.

Then Mohammed slaughtered Jewish tribes. Held them to be 2nd clas citizens under Islamic rule.

A Jewess was accused of poisoning Mohammed – who dies THREE year later. Hence, it was just an opportunity to pretend that a Jew had killed Mohammed so that Jew hate could propogate.

Jews as “Apes and Pigs”. Sura 5.54 “Take not the Christians and The Jews as friends……”

Yeah! It started with Zionism! Bollocks!

Voice of Reason+ would you like to explain the Meaning of word ‘Abrogation’ specifically in relation to the Koran? Also could you please let your audience know what the Satanic Verses are, again in relation to the Koran (not the Salman Rushdie Book).

This post will surely be pruned but at least I will have the satisfaction of knowing that my views are correct, if only for a fleeting moment , Voice of Reason your ‘ Voice’ is precisely one of these Echos of a bygone age, your refusal to accept this will prove to be your undoing. It really is people like you that will cause your eventual downfall, not the west or the jews or imperialists or communists or neocons or any other of your imagined demons but ‘You’ and people like ‘You’. You don’t yet seem able to come to terms with this fact but one day you may or maybe you will choose the fast track option to paradise, either way you will be proven wrong in all you profess, of that I am certain.
In fact I am as certain in my view as you are in your belief of the eventual victory of your version of Islam. One of us is Wrong in their belief and therein lies the problem.
You see you think the west is weak but again as with so many of your thoughts you are quite mistaken.

Neil W – As a fellow resident of Yorkshire -West Riding as it once was – I must unfortunately bear witness to some very disturbing anti-Semitism in this area for some time now. This particular area does not have a large Muslim population; the anti-Semitism is being propogated entirely by white, middle class, middle aged, left wingers, some of whom are even members of the local Labour affiliated club.
I have personally lost all hope of finding a strategy to combat the escalation of this ugly phenomenen. The resounding silence of the British govenment over the past few weeks (and I include Hazel Blears’ letter in that category) has shown me that without a shadow of a doubt there is no intention of doing anything to combat it.
Had Ben Bradshaw been sacked, had the PM publicly stated in the strongest of terms that anti-Semitism is unacceptable, had this latest scandal in the FO been handled properly, maybe I would feel differently.

To me and my family the only method of combat is to wind up our lives here as soon as possible and return to the one place where a Jew does not have to put up with anti-Semitism. There is no reason for Jews to endure this as they had to in the past. We have an alternative.

Luis Enrique

David are you really sure that your average left wing identifying person would “probably very quickly add … that Jews have become the new Nazis”?

I am sympathetic to your point of view but I know quite a few ordinary middle-class white suburban people who describe themselves as left wing as well as a few that don’t but who would still see themselves as anti-war. They would take the statement above as a matter of course. They would also add that Israel was created on the back of European guilt and foisted on the Palestinians. And just look at the dignity of those rabbis [Neturei Karta] on the marches…and what about J-BIG and Norman Finkelstein…they can’t be anti-semitic, they’re Jewish! Pointing out or describing incidents of anti-semitism is met with silence, a change of subject or an expression of understanding for the emotional suffering of the perpetrators. The difference with the SWP is that they don’t think Israel should be destroyed; rather it shouldn’t have existed in the first place.

Mrs Ben

Do we have any arabists here who can translate it for us independently?

Any translation, however accurate, by any arabist posted here would be dismissed as lies for the same reason that MEMRI’s are.

Herman
Unfortunately, the popularity of Louis Davids never saved Dutch Jews nor affection for Josef Schmidt or the Comedian Harmonists the Jews of Germany.

HPhypocrite

You said that Funny Rabbi Ovadia Yosef head of the Shas party said pretty much teh same thing [as Qaradawi] about Holocaust victims.

The article you cite says he said this: He called the Nazis “evil” and the victims “poor people,” but he concluded that the six million “were reincarnations of the souls of sinners, people who transgressed and did all sorts of things which should not be done. They had been reincarnated in order to atone.”

It should be noted that Rabbi Yosef described the Nazis as “evil.” Qaradawi said that the next Holocaust would be “at the hand of the believers.” Perhaps you will understand the difference between these two statements, reprehensible as they are.

Anti-semitism is no longer a left-wing concern.

No, indeed it isn’t – rather it’s gotten to be something of an obsession!

It should be noted that Rabbi Yosef described the Nazis as “evil.” Qaradawi said that the next Holocaust would be “at the hand of the believers.” Perhaps you will understand the difference between these two statements, reprehensible as they are.

Or conclude that Qaradawi’s cohorts of believers are evil?

Maybe the statement that anti-Semitism is no longer a left wing concern could be looked at in a wider context.
What IS a left wing concern?
Thirty odd years after the awakening of the various liberation/equality movements in the sixties, what has actually been acheived?
We have numerous anti-discrimination laws, but discrimination is still alive and kicking, particularly in the work place. Ageism is a big problem, particularly as the country can not afford financially (and morally) for people of 50+ to be thrown on the scrap heap. Women still do not have equal pay, despite legislation.
If I look at the feminist movement which I knew well in its initial stages, I have a great sense of disappointment as regards what has actually been acheived. Sure, laws were passed and opportunities created. Women no longer need a man’s permission to take out a bank loan, but the day to day lives of women are not so spectacularly different from those of their mothers.In some ways they are worse -teenage pregnancies have risen, STDs are out of control, domestic violence has not been curbed.
Especially worrying is the impression that the next generation was not interested in carrying on the work their mothers had begun.
We seem to be living in a post-more-or less-everything world. Post-feminism, post-Zionism…Did people at some point assume that all the battles had been won on their own turf and that there was nothing left to strive for? That is certainly my impression as regards feminism.
Did this way of thinking then prompt the left to look for other causes further away from home, believing that their work was largely done on the domestic front?
One of the non-domestic causes which the left seems to have embraced with great gusto is the Palestinian cause. At some point the promotion of this cause became incompatible with the cause of opposing anti-Semitism; indeed anti-Semitism has become a tool to be used in furthering a cause with a greater feel-good factor. It is very easy to sympathise with images from a world so different from our own – to decide to donate to a charity collecting for poor, downtrodden people in a foreign land. It is also easier to ignore the fact that there are old and homeless people who are also cold at night in this country, pensioners not able to afford to eat properly who would probably delight in a UN food parcel, children whose chance of going to university is no greater than those in Gaza.
To see these problems would require the left to face up to what it has not acheived in all the years of its existance. It would require the left to inspect its own complacency and come to terms with the fact that it abandoned the fight against domestic ills, including anti-Semitism, before the battle was over.

He highlights the universalist and progressive message of Mohammed that all are equal in the eyes of God:

But there is nothing to highlight.

Mohammed murdered thousands of people. He was an oppressive tyrant. That’s why, upon hearing of Mohammed’s death, the entire Arabian peninsula went into open revolt against both his successor AND islam.

That break away for freedom was brutally supressed, although it took several years.

He highlights the universalist and progressive message of Mohammed that all are equal in the eyes of God

We’ve read the Quran, Hadith and Tafsirs too.

Muhammad’s progressive message was simple: Muslims are the coolest, the elected anointed to cleanse the earth of riffraff, infidels, and other lower life forms repugnant to Muh–oops, excuse me– Allah.

The universalist message was even simpler. Everyone gets three choices: convert, knuckle under, or die. No exceptions.