Harry's Place

“Perhaps what infuriates some Western opinion about Qaradawi is that he pins the blame for modern anti-Semitism where it belongs – on Europe’s long history of intolerance:”

What about Islamic antisemitism e.g. re. contra Arab and ‘Islamic’ Jews? Does Qaradawi acknowledge such a thing even exists?

it’s also important to mention that the idea that jews and muslims got along famously before zionism is also false.

in certain places and certain times jews fared well under muslim rule. but most of the time they were no more than a barely tolerated minority that had to make a great show of its subjugation on a daily basis.

I mean, technically, isn’t Qaradawi’s opinion re. Hitler technically an example of “Islamic antisemitism”?

Or would TVOR pin that squarely on “The West” too?

“Voice of Reason” my backside.

“Protecting the ahl al-dhimma is a duty incumbent upon the Muslims.”
The term dhimmi is offensive it means people who are 2nd class.

So it’s Qaradawi’s view that Hitler was right, the Jews should be exterminated and that it his own antimsemitism is entirely the West’s fault and that Islam is innocent. In summary, Qaradawi is saying “I am a Nazi, not an Islamist”

Wow. No wonder “Voice of Reason” finds him such a creditable source of information about Islam. I mean if you can’t trust Nazi Muslim clerics who can you trust?

There are three things wrong with Voice of Reason’s starting point. The third is his/her assumption that Qaradawi is interested in a peaceful coexistence between the West and the Muslim world.

I’m sure I could engage in a similar exercise with other noted theocrats/ tyrants selecting quotes from their good days. At best this demonstrates that bigots and racists may also be schizoid.

Qaradawi’s historical vision of Islam is also grossly inaccurate (granted it is a narrative propagated widely by Islamists and western pseudo-liberals). It needs challenging.

“The term dhimmi is offensive it means people who are 2nd class.”

No it means protected.
The term goy or shiska
Now THATS offensive

Well, thank you to David T for highlighting my post, which I had hoped would generate some debate and go some way towards a counterbalance to the one-sided diatrbies against Muslims that many HP commentators are prone to. Amongst my progressive friends, I shall try to live down the honour he has done me.

I would like to point out that in no way am I a follower of Qaradawi, and of course I can see many problems in some of the things that he says. But the important thing is that he genuinely represents an interpretation of Islam which it should be possible for the pluralistic, multicultural societies of the West to engage with. As Ken Livingstone put it, he’s unlikely to be seen on a gay pride march anytime soon. But jaw-jaw is better than war-war. Dialogue with the likes of Qaradawi is a small beginning step in the right direction.

So it’s Qaradawi’s view that Hitler was right, the Jews should be exterminated …

No, I don’t think that is fair. Qaradawi’s view is that many of the misfortunes of the Jews are a punishment from God. He would also say much the same thing about the misfortunes of the Muslims — this fatalistic belief is a well-known and core idea of Islamic theology. His comments about martyrdom, his personal desire to fight back against Zionism, must be understood in the context of the present-day oppression of Palestine.

What about Islamic antisemitism e.g. re. contra Arab and ‘Islamic’ Jews? Does Qaradawi acknowledge such a thing even exists?

Yes, I think that Qaradawi would be the first to acknowledge than the Muslim world, throughout its history, has often failed to live up to the principles espoused by Muhammed. Which society hasn’t failed to live up to all its principles?

The term dhimmi is offensive it means people who are 2nd class.

Not necessarily for Qaradawi, as my comments in the original post make clear: it is arguable that Islam obliges Muslims to guarantee that non-Muslims are even better treated than ordinary believers.

Once more, the important thing is to not get hung-up on this or that detail, but to appreciate that the Muslim world is beginning a vital internal dialogue we must do all we can to encourage and support.

David T

“The first is that, frankly, saying that you’re going to repeat Hitler’s ‘punishment’ of “the Jews” yourself really ought to be the sort of statement that puts you beyond defending. I mean, it is a little bit worse thank calling an Indian woman “poppadom”, isn’t it?”

or like calling for a shoah against Palestinians as Israeli ministers have?

” as black people were paternalised by whites under Apartheid. ”

or Arabs under Israel rule. Jews climbed to positions under Islamic rule that Arabs could only dream of

“Granted, he admits that Mohammed recognised Jews as human. Big deal.”

You really love to see Muslims and Islam in the worst possible light.
Oh wait you are only anti-”Islamists” not anti-Muslims though youll gladly slander the Prophet all Muslims believe in

Its more than many Rabbis consider Palestinians

What is interesting about this long and fascinating insight in to the mental landscape of a ‘moderate’ Islamist, is that so much is ‘given’. My status as a non-Moslem is ‘given’, as are my ‘rights’, which will be ‘protected’ – in this Islamist paradise.

Where does voting come in? Who makes (and repeals) the Law? Have I missed something?

Old Labour
“Qaradawi’s historical vision of Islam is also grossly inaccurate (granted it is a narrative propagated widely by Islamists and western pseudo-liberals). It needs challenging.”

Likewise Zionists historical view of Judaism and Jewish history.

A dhimmi was protected in their life, property and honour

Thats more than any Arab in Israel has

“Qaradawi argues that minorities would have nothing to fear in a Muslim-majority state”

Sure, as long as they pay the price…
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

A dhimmi was protected in their life, property and honour

But not treated as an equal!

Really are these people defending that the dimmi term is not offensive? Protected? Which kind of society is that that I need protection? From who? Why muslims don’t need protection? Really the fat left is the f***g folkloric far right? This is really incredible – and frightening

I repeat my response to VOR in Qaradawi’s suggestion that Jews and Muslims got on swell until Zionism:-

It started when Jews rejected Mohammed as their Prophet and Islam as their religion.

Yeah! It started with Zionism!

There has been a hatred against Jews from the dawn of Islam. Zionism is just a modern excuse that appeals to today’s Dhimmi.

Blah:
Where do you live? How many rabbis do you know? How many Israeli arabs do you know? Have you ever met this one?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668921,00.html
Or this one:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668808,00.html

How many zionists do you know? Where have you learned Judaism and Jewish history?

“Yes, I think that Qaradawi would be the first to acknowledge than the Muslim world, throughout its history, has often failed to live up to the principles espoused by Muhammed.”

That wasn’t the question, Oh Voice issuing from your Backside. Care to furnish any evidence that Qaradawi acknowledges the existence of such a thing as Islamic antisemitism? Or that any of his views might legitimately be construed as “antisemitic”?

zkhayra
“Care to furnish any evidence that Qaradawi acknowledges the existence of such a thing as Islamic antisemitism?”

Care to acknowledge the existence of Jewish anti-goyimism?

“it is arguable that Islam obliges Muslims to guarantee that non-Muslims are even better treated than ordinary believers.”

Excuse me?

Good job of attacking set up for a punch line and not actual point.

The POINT was that by writing this, you’re granting credibility to a man who is calling for a second holocaust, the most confirmed antisemite possible, and you’re trusting precisely this antisemite to tell you that Islamists are not antisemite and that the history of relations with Jews is rosy.

The man is a fucking Nazi. If you want Nazis to inform you of Jewish history, you don’t have to limit yourself to Islamists. There’s a whole WORLD of Nazis writing about Jewish history. Can I recommend the original German?

“A dhimmi was protected in their life, property and honour”

Yeah, that’s why almost all the Arab and other ‘Islamic’ Jews left.

“Where do you live? How many rabbis do you know? How many Israeli arabs do you know? Have you ever met this one?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668921,00.html”

Yeah I have met people from the victim group who are willing to blame the victims for their opressors sake

“Or this one:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668808,00.html”

Hilarious so Judaism is a missionary religion now?

Whats he going to do when he realises hes a permenant second class Jew because he doesnt have chosen race blood?

“How many zionists do you know?

Through the internet many. They are invariably extreme Muslim/Islam haters. Which leads me to believe they do not wish to be accepted in an region that is predominantly Muslim.

“Where have you learned Judaism and Jewish history?”

Where have you learnt about Islam and Islamic history?

“A dhimmi was protected in their life, property and honour”

Zkhayra
“Yeah, that’s why almost all the Arab and other ‘Islamic’ Jews left.”

They left to go to a richer, majority Jewish state. If they werent protected in Muslim lands as you claim makes you wonder how they lived there for 1400 years.

Or ar you suggeting Israel is such a sh*t hole a Jew ould only move there if they are forced to. Fair enough.

Many British and US Jews go to Israel. Perhaps you could rewrite zionist history to explain how they are perscuted.

Or are you suggetsing Israel is such a

Does anyone bother reading blah’s comments?

I guess we keep nutcases around to demonstrate their nuttiness, but what a waste of space.

Qaradawi is the voice of the Muslim Brotherhood in the ether on islamonline. The motto of the Bros is:”God is our purpose, the Prophet our leader, the Quran our constitution, jihad our way and dying for God our supreme objective.”

In an talk aired on Al-Aqsa TV on 13 July 2008 a cleric discusses what every brother knows – know less, of course, than Big Cheese Qaradawi – the significance for the Jews of the chapter titled Bani Israil in the Koran . This is his concluding para.:

“The blessing of Palestine is dependent upon the annihilation of the pit of global corruption in it [Israel]. When the head of the serpent of corruption is cut off here in Palestine, and its octopus tentacles are severed throughout the world, [Der Stuermer] the real blessing will come. The annihilation of the Jews here in Palestine is one of the most splendid blessings for Palestine. This will be followed by a greater blessing, Allah be praised, with the establishment of a Caliphate that will rule the land and will be pleasing to men and God.”

(Don’t do hyper-links. Go to: youtube memri hamas cleric annihilation jews blessing)

blah is flanker for anyone in doubt

“Muslim world, throughout its history, has often failed to live up to the principles espoused by Muhammed.”
You are joking, aren’t you? You haven’t read the koran have you? Tell me What does the word ‘Abrogation’ mean in relation to the Koran and Islamic Theology.

What is the meaning of the Satanic Verses contained in the Koran?

Oh yes and how many People did the prophet personally kill? and please don’t cry Islamophobia, just for once try and answer a strait question concerning Islamic Theology, the version understood by countless millions living in 2009, please have some self respect and give the whole story, don’t just cherry pick the ‘good bits’. We will never get anywhere (except maybe to a third world war) unless this sort of self selective fantasy version of history is challenged.

Remember some Books only seem to be a true version of the ‘facts’ because the reader wants them to be true. We are all guilty of that human failing, thats why we must explore all opposing views and come to a final decision based on ALL the facts, something I suspect you have failed to do Mr Voice Of reason.
Your attempt to justify a nazi who has been exposed tells me all I need to know about you, so please ignore my request for clarity, you see as ‘You’ and I both know ‘What’ you are, there really isn’t any point in a attempt to justify yourself.

Goodbye Mr Voice of Reason and don’t forget there are millions of books out there maybe you should try and broaden your intellectual horizons a bit, believe me you won’t regret it, mmm, maybe you will regret it but at least you will have a little more ammunition the next time you try to defend a Nazi.

Indeed, Josh. I gave him a chance to prove he’s not a total waste of bandwidth. He failed. I’ll just ignore him from now on.

OT – Michael J. Totten, A Dispatch from the Border with Gaza
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/02/a-dispatch-from.php

Islam has few moderates by our standards because the rules do not allow for it. For example: The penalty for leaving Islam is death. Either you enforce or you ignore. Not much room for moderation. I noticed among other things that ‘occupation’ of Muslim land is wrong. The occupiers must be thrown out or killed. No other justification is required. Once something is Muslim, it can’t revert back. So even if Muslims start a war for any reason, ANY occupation of that land is wrong.

These problems are a constant throughout the Koran and the Islamic world. No wonder they do not get along with anyone. Please notice how constant warfare is present in all of the areas of the world where Islam is comming into daily contact with other cultures.

In other words: support a moderate fascist because he’s less extreme than some other fascists. It’s like approving the BNP on the grounds that it has made a few token politically correct statements that mark it out as less extreme than Combat 18, and is therefore a moderating influence within the white racist world.

Rather patronising toward Muslims, really – ‘Ok, we’ll consider you a good guy, even though you’re an anti-Semite and endorse wife-beating, because you’re a Muslim and have brown skin’.

Care to furnish any evidence that Qaradawi acknowledges the existence of such a thing as Islamic antisemitism?

I would have thought it was obvious that he does: in the quotes I have culled from here he is addressing a Muslim TV audience as an Islamic scholar and explaining that opposition to Zionism, which is legitimate and entirely justified, must not be confused with anti-Semitism, which is not legitimate, and was opposed by Muhammed. Why else would he feel a need to explain this to a Muslim audience unless he is worried about a rise in anti-Semitic attitudes in the Muslim world?

The comments that Qaradawi is calling for a second Holocaust and that he is a Nazi are profoundly unhelpful, just as unhelpful as Qaradawi’s own comments about divine punishment of Jews. To foster a dialogue we have to get beyond the stage of name-calling.

“it is arguable that Islam obliges Muslims to guarantee that non-Muslims are even better treated than ordinary believers.”

In rhetoric, serfs and slaves are always well treated. There’s no such thing as treatment that’s too good for your slaves, when the standard is words not actions.

The comments that Qaradawi is calling for a second Holocaust and that he is a Nazi are profoundly unhelpful, just as unhelpful as Qaradawi’s own comments about divine punishment of Jews. To foster a dialogue we have to get beyond the stage of name-calling.

Wow.

It sure is a shame when people say unhelpful things.

You know who else said unhelpful things? Hilter.

I’ve just popped by to see if the Placeniks had noted that their posterboy, Hassan Butt, has today been exposed as a complete fantasist, who made a good living telling people (people like _you_, gentle reader) everything that they wanted to hear. No sign as yet. Although I see that TGISOOT is nicely kulturkampfing away.

Will you condemn yourselves for this wilful blindness? Having done so, will you condemn those who refuse to condemn? etc.

bye

Not only is Qaradawi an anti-Semite and an Islamic Terrorism condoner, he’s also crazier than a box of amphetamine-psychotic snakes (he thinks Pokemon is a Zionist plot).

Mind you, for an Islamic scholar he’s pretty moderate. I mean he hasn’t killed anybody. As far as we know.

support a moderate fascist …

What is a “moderate fascist”? Because it sounds like an oxymoron, Marko. Is it someone who believes all races are created equal and deserve equal treatment before the law? Someone who is careful to distinguish condemnation of an ideology from condemnation of an ethnic group? Someone who says that there will always be, and rightfully so, a plurality of opinions and lifestyles amongst human beings?

These are liberal values and are starkly different from the views are we often told are the sole emanation from Islamic scholars. We have to seize the chance to engage in debate moderates like Qaradawi. And we should condemn outright those so bigoted against Muslims that they would raise any small quibble as a reason to avoid dialogue with them.

The obvious elephant in the room which we tend to forget is that Qaradawi, like many others, tailors his rhetoric to his audience. When trying to impress Westerners, he says the things that Voice of Reason quotes. When trying to impress Arabs, he talks about killing Jews as part of Allah’s punishment for them. God only knows which side represents his real thinking; but I wouldn’t bet the ranch on anything he says. And no-one with a titter of wit would expect the Israelis to either.

I’m sorry but does anyone see the connection between the Qaradawi that VoR is talking about and the infamous Islamist scholar?

What is a “moderate fascist”? blah blah blah blah

It’s called sarcasm, you simp.

When trying to impress Westerners, he says the things that Voice of Reason quotes.

I don’t think that is fair. The quotes I gave are from an interview conducted on Al-Jazeera’s “Religion and Life” programme; the audience would be overwhelmingly Muslim.

But the fact that he has impressed you is a welcome and positive step in the right direction.

Our experience with Arafat who talked sweetness and light in English, but preached jihad in Arabic would indicate that we should take what a speaker says to his own people in their language as his true intentions and what he says in other languages as deception.
So what Qaradawi says in Arabic are more likely his true intentions.

These are liberal values and are starkly different from the views are we often told are the sole emanation from Islamic scholars.

They’re different because he doesn’t mean them.

. We have to seize the chance to engage in debate moderates like Qaradawi.

Oh God, what a moron. And his call for a second holocaust on prime time TV doesn’t disqualify him as a “liberal” “moderate”.

The comments that Qaradawi is calling for a second Holocaust and that he is a Nazi are profoundly unhelpful, just as unhelpful as Qaradawi’s own comments about divine punishment of Jews. To foster a dialogue we have to get beyond the stage of name-calling.

Well I did not dare think it was possible in this day and age but there you are, a 100%, solid gold nugget of appeasement, this from churchill sums it up for me;

What I find unendurable is the sense of our country falling into the power, into the orbit and influence of Nazi Germany, and of our existence becoming dependent upon their good will or pleasure.

Forgive me for leaving but I really need to Throw Up, The blatant attempt by reason to salvage some self respect by saying the exposing of the true beliefs of this disgusting Islamist Lunatic are ‘unhelpful’ really is the last straw for me. The people in the UK or indeed anywhere who agree with this ‘voice’ have got a serious, serious defect of their cognitive powers and indeed are heading for nothing but misery.

Absolutely fucking hilarious. How many times does this dirtbag have to call for all the Jews to be murdered before people stop calling him a “moderate”?

The comments that Qaradawi is calling for a second Holocaust and that he is a Nazi are profoundly unhelpful

Yes, it is profoundly unhelpful of this Nazi to keep coming out with expressions of Nazism. It really fucks things up for “far sighted” individuals like Ken Livingstone who want to pretend that he isn’t a Nazi.

Voice of reason: you are trying to debate with a group of people whose hatred of Islam and all muslims is do deep rooted that their every thought is twisted. If God himself sat down with them to show reason they would still argue. The motto on here is to fight Hate with Hate x100.

When you have a group of people who see graphic slaughter with their own eyes and not once criticise the IDF you realise what you are dealing with….I would guarantee these group of individuals celebrated every palestinian death with immense pleasure…

If im wrong I challenge the people here to criticise the actions of the IDF, I as a muslim see Hamas’s targetting of civillians as completely wrong.

Voice of Reason is the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlin.

Semite is someone who sees the world as exactly opposite of the way it really is.

Voice of reason: you are trying to debate with a group of people whose hatred of Islam and all muslims is do deep rooted that their every thought is twisted.

“Twisted” eh? And we’re not even praising Hitler and calling for God to complete the holocaust like your hero is.

Semite, why do you have to criticise the IDF in order to prove that you don’t hate muslims? Is it necessary to criticise the Iranian mercenaries of Hamas and Hezbollah to prove you don’t hate Jews?

Note the chosen handle “Semite” – the word that racists falsely posit as the opposite of “antisemitism” so that they can pretend not to be antisemites. How long till we hear “Arabs are Semites, you’re all antisemite”.. etc.

he genuinely represents an interpretation of Islam which it should be possible for the pluralistic, multicultural societies of the West to engage with

Jesus wept! I think we all understand what is what the “pluralistic, multicultural societies of the West” are supposed to engage according to the oxymoronic “Voice of Reason”. And it stinks of Ziklon B. “Voice of Reason” is a typical example of the odious racism that we find on what once was a left. Unlike a classical, Combat 18 or BNP racism, this is a racism with a syrupy smile, a very “reasonable” racism that dare not call its name.

Let us have it straight. Qaradawi praised Hitler – and not on building the autobahns but specifically on exterminating Jews. And expressed the hope that Hitler’s work will be completed by “believers”. What can be more explicit and straightforward? It is really simple: are you for the genocide of Jews, to complete Hitler’s work, or are you not? And we know where, behind the syrupy words, is “Voice of Reason”.

What a racist filth.

Who does Qaradawi understand as an enemy of Muslims? Is it all Jews and Westerners, or those he regards as fighting a war against his people? In the article I quoted, he clarifies who he means:

“In my book, ‘Our Islamic Discourse in the Globalization Era,’ I related to preachers who make generalizations. In other words, [they] say ‘Allah, destroy the Jews and the Christians. Make their children orphans and their wives widows,’ etc. These curses are unacceptable, because there are Jews and Christians who live in our countries, whom it is not befitting for us to curse. There are peaceful Christians and Jews. It is not reasonable for me to curse those rabbis who bid me farewell at the airport … [but] I say: ‘Allah, [harm] the oppressive, aggressive, and deceiving Zionists and Jews.’ They must be labeled, because I do not curse every Jew and every Christian. I say ‘the hostile Crusaders,’ and I mean ‘the aggressive Americans who lean towards Israel’…”

Are you calling me a racist? Take a look in the Mirror my friend you will see one in all its glory.

VoR – “No, I don’t think that is fair. Qaradawi’s view is that many of the misfortunes of the Jews are a punishment from God. He would also say much the same thing about the misfortunes of the Muslims — this fatalistic belief is a well-known and core idea of Islamic theology.”

VoR, that’s exactly the point.

Qaradawi believes that Jews, throughout history, deserved to be punished; that Hitler was Allah’s punishment; and that the punishment will be repeated at the hands of the Muslims.

You think that’s OK, or maybe you don’t even see it, and explain his belief by reference to Muslim fatalism.

But the issue is the anti-semitism, not the fatalism.

or like calling for a shoah against Palestinians as Israeli ministers have?

Outright, clear, unambigeous lie.

Of course, we know the “evidence” to this lie: As the original Dr Goebbels could have said, a good lie must be based on a kernel of something you can twist. So the kernel was Matan Vilnai, Israeli Deputy Security Minister, saying that “the Palestinians, by their behaviour, are bringing a disaster upon themselves”. Disaster is “Shoah” (שואה) in Hebrew, the Holocaust is “Ha’Shoah” (השואה). Perhaps careless, precisely because it can be twisted (not by Hebrew speakers). Perhaps wrong (and politically I don’t hold the quarter for him) but nothing to do with Blah’s fabrication.

So Matan Vilnai was a perhaps a little careless? tell that to the 1300 Palestinians.

Do you still not see your Bias? perhaps Qardawi was a bit careless?

Semite, are you aware of a story called ‘the boy who cried wolf’ you and your co-religionists should read it, you may learn something very useful, and it may let you begin to understand the quantum shift in public opinion world wide as a result of the belief of people like ‘You’ and ‘Your Heros

VoR – “The comments that Qaradawi is calling for a second Holocaust and that he is a Nazi are profoundly unhelpful, just as unhelpful as Qaradawi’s own comments about divine punishment of Jews. To foster a dialogue we have to get beyond the stage of name-calling.”

VoR – nice equivalence!

Qaradawi is unhelpful by saying that Jews deserve, and receive, divine punishment, and that he wants to become a shahid doing Allah’s work – and Jews are unhelpful by saying that he said it.

Your solution? Both sides should get beyond name calling.

No. The solution is that Qaradawi should stop his fantasies of murdering Jews.

On a related note, from the wonderful failblog:

http://failblog.org/2009/02/09/jihad-fail/

Anaxi…there in lies your racism…what evidence can you provide on your view of me being a religionist?

Can you quantify what belief and exactly who are my heroes??? do enlighten me please?

So Matan Vilnai was a perhaps a little careless?

He was careless precisely because he allowed types like you to twist what he said.

tell that to the 1300 Palestinians.

This is precious. Few days after I was called all possible names on HP for objecting totally and unconditionally to Cast Lead… But of course what stares you in the face is this. Cast Lead was wrong, morally and politically. The large numbers of dead and injured incombatants and the wholesale destruction were wrong. But had Israel really wanted genocide of Palestinians, don’t you think they would have done rather “better”?

Voice from your Backside,

the term “anti-Semitism” doesn’t occur once in the article you cite, and how I read it is that he is saying

a) Jews aren’t true ‘Semites’ and

b) Arabs, being true Semites, are incapable of anti-Semitism, which is really the sin of the ‘Zionists’.

Blah/Flanker,

“Many British and US Jews go to Israel. Perhaps you could rewrite zionist history to explain how they are perscuted.”

They aren’t for the most part, which is why hardly any have moved to Israel, which still comprises, by descent, Jews from Eastern Christendom and Asian and African Islam, approximately 50-50.

As for the rest, most Arab and Asian Jews experienced a significant decrease in wealth and standard of living upon moving to Israel, having formerly been educated or professional middle class.

As for the rest of your argument, you might as well ask why the Jews of Christendom didn’t move to Palestine for 2000 years if life there was so much worse than in Islam.

a) neither traditional or imperial Christendom or Islam would have tolerated a Jewish national restoration but

b) both European, Arab and Asian Christian and Islamic societies had the potential to murder or effectively drive out most of their Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries, only latent or partly realised, in discrimination or persecution, for the most part, but capable of developing into genocide or effective ethnic cleansing when circumstances changed.

Zkharya – please see my post of 9 February 2009, 11:29 pm, where Qaradawi explains that he is opposed to generalizations.

Semite

“So Matan Vilnai was a perhaps a little careless? tell that to the 1300 Palestinians.
Do you still not see your Bias? perhaps Qardawi was a bit careless?”

There is no bias. Vilna is Jewish and therefore eternally excused. Qardawi is Arab and therefore not.

” both European, Arab and Asian Christian and Islamic societies had the potential to murder or effectively drive out most of their Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries, only latent or partly realised, in discrimination or persecution, for the most part, but capable of developing into genocide or effective ethnic cleansing when circumstances changed.”

Likewise the Jewish state and its native Arab population

Watch for it to come closer tommorow as the Apartheid state elects its first Nazi Avigdor Lieberman ex-Kahanist to government.

But HP will be more concerned about what some mullah said on Arab TV.

VOR:

“Not necessarily for Qaradawi, as my comments in the original post make clear: it is arguable that Islam obliges Muslims to guarantee that non-Muslims are even better treated than ordinary believers.”

Anything is arguable. But history is history, and facts are facts. The islamic scripture prescribes the oppression of the people of the book “so that they feel themselves subdued”.

And the history of dhimmitude tells us that the payment of the jizya extortion tax, levied on the Jews and Christians, was traditionally accompanied by public ritual humiliation. You handed your money to the Sultan’s tax collector, while he slapped your face. If you were lucky he did not make you open your mouth so he could spit into it. The Ottoman empire would send officials to take your boy children, for the Janissary regiments, and you would never see them again.

How dishonest of you to peddle a pretence of islamic respect, based on the ruined lives of millions of folk who weren’t quite murdered. It takes a spectacularly cheeky bugger to try that on.

Voice of reason: you are trying to debate with a group of people whose hatred of Islam and all muslims is do deep rooted that their every thought is twisted. If God himself sat down with them to show reason they would still argue. The motto on here is to fight Hate with Hate x100.

If im wrong I challenge the people here to criticise the actions of the IDF, I as a muslim see Hamas’s targetting of civillians as completely wrong.

I, as a target of Qaradawi for the gas chamber call upon you, as a Muslim, to call Qaradawi an antisemitic human dirtbag Nazi. You’ll do that for me, won’t you?

He’s a cancer on Islam, isn’t he? He’s dragging the good name of Islam into the toilet, isn’t he?

I completely reject any Rabbi who’s warped mind stains the foundations of Judaism by calling for biblical-based action against Palestinians.

Qaradawi doesn’t represent what YOU believe, does he? His interpretation and abuse of Islam is unhelpful.

Over to you!

It also takes a lot of cheek for people like “Semite” and “Blah” to try and excuse outright Nazism by attempting to accuse Israelis of similar motives or behavior, and just flat out inventing lies about Israeli treatment of Arab citizens.

I don’t understand this phenomenon.

People gather to complain – rightly – about Nazism or other forms of antisemitism – dreading another outbreak of violence or even another genocide only a few decades after the last – and people, instead of grappling with that awful problem – try to turn it around, change the subject, accuse everybody on Harry’s of being a racist or Islamophobe and carefully find nuggets of Israeli or Jewish bigotry against Arabs to try and excuse open calls for the extermination of Jews by an Arab, which include glowing references to Hitler.

I don’t know which is more shocking – Qaradawi and his ilk, the fact that anybody would try to describe this as “moderate”, or the fact that people refuse, simply refuse to deal with the problem of the war against the Jews which has claimed so many lives for so many centuries.

Why is this?

It isn’t just on Harry’s either. Of course far right sites don’t even try to grapple with the problem of antisemitism because racism is part of their philosophy but progressives find ways to wriggle around it because at least I suppose we still have the grace to feel a little guilty?

The Dutch film “Black Book” begins and ends in Israel. In flashback it tells the story of a young Jewish woman who worked with the underground against the Nazis. Her family was lost to the Shoah, her life nearly destroyed by war and by the war against the Jewish people.

The last frame of the film shows her kibbutz under attack, soldiers rushing to the perimeter fence as jets scream overhead.

Why isn’t this seen as the continuum of violence that it truly is?

Antisemitism isn’t something to be lightly dismissed by counter-argument. It’s a disease that has claimed millions of people just in the past few decades.

And however much people bang on about The Oppression of Palestine it’s difficult to see how the violence against Jews in the Middle East isn’t infected by, wasn’t started by and continues today because of hatred of Jews full stop.

And, if wars have erupted in which Arabs are hurt because Jews are being attacked and are trying to defend themselves from an apparently endless assault against their very existence how does this become an excuse to refer to Israel as Nazis and ignore the real connection between this present day violence and the REAL Nazis?

And how does an attempt to deal with antisemitism, Christian or Muslim, always seem to wind up with attacks on Jews?

Or with convoluted explanations that this or that wasn’t really a hate crime and that Iran really didn’t mean xyz or that this call for extermination of the Jews isn’t really extreme and anyway there are bigots in Israel too as if that has ANYTHING to do with antisemitism and the grief it’s created?

I don’t get it .

Good post Sophia.

There is an Islamist mode of attacking the existence of Israel by sneering at the “Chosen People” tag and the Galloway quote that “God isn’t an estate agent”, referring to the biblical story of God granting The Land Of Israel to His Chosen People.

If they want to go on the attack in this way then we have to remind Muslims that the Old Testament stories are incoporated in the Koran. What God did – so Allah did. To a Muslim the Koran is the perfect word of Allah, unalterable and not down to interpretation or abrogation.

The conclusion (if you are religious) is that the Arab attacks on Israel are doomed to the same embarrassing defeats because to try and destroy Israel is against what is written in The Koran.

Surely Qaradawi knows the Koran.

You will not be surprised to find out that “blah” was recently spouting similar shite on Pickled Politics where he came out with this gem, straight out of the Ignorance 101 coursebook:

Hamas are Palestinian Arabs- That is to say semites.
They can no more be anti-semitic than a Jewish person can.

Dear oh dear.

And to “semite” with:

When you have a group of people who see graphic slaughter with their own eyes and not once criticise the IDF you realise what you are dealing with….I would guarantee these group of individuals celebrated every palestinian death with immense pleasure…

If im wrong I challenge the people here to criticise the actions of the IDF, I as a muslim see Hamas’s targetting of civillians as completely wrong.

Look for posts on here by Neil D. This one will do for starters.

Islamists use their sincere Judeophobia to attract and become pallatable to secular liberals and leftists. They also use anti-Americanism and anti-imperialism (though Islam = imperialism and in Islamic countries Muslims consider themselves übermenschen) with the same goal. And it has been working quite well. When those secularists discover, in the end (as their Iranian counterparts did in 1979-80), that they too are hated by the Islamists, maybe it’ll be too late to complain.

Plum, Quaradawi knows the quran only too well. He knows how much of his scripture is predicated on the doctrine of abrogation, which is the rationale for declaring all other religions heretical. Especially Judaism and Christianity.

If there was an omnipotent God, and he could do anything, absolutely anything, do you seriously believe he would appoint a bloody subcontractor to spread his message and act on his behalf? At any rate, he seems to have stopped doing it, which can only be a good thing. Perhaps he has learned his lesson. Or perhaps we are starting to learn ours.

Oh, and about those 1.300 Palestinians killed in Gaza, most of them were combatants and, thus, legitimate targets in the war they initiated. It’s a shame that in the bunkers there there was room only for the leadership and, so, foot-soldiers and civilians had to stay outside (though those brave warriors were not wearing their beautiful uniforms, Allah knows why), not as well hidden or protected as Hannyeh and his friends. Maybe in the next round, kids will be allowed in the bunkers under the hospitals while the Hamas officials will be fighting, who knows, everything is possible, isn’t it?

Muslims cannot tolerate the idea of Jews being God’s chosen people not because they are democratic or egalitarian. If they were so, why would they care about the phantasies of a small people? The trouble for them is that they, the Muslims, are actually Allah’s chosen people.

The same with God having given Israel to the Jews. Who would care for that minuscule patch of land? Well, the Muslims, because according to them, that piece of land is Waqf, inalienable Muslim property till Judgement Day. As it is clearly written in the Hamas charter, Israel/Palestine have been Muslim ever since the conquest (yes, they admit to having conquered it) and will be Muslim for ever.

“I would guarantee these group of individuals celebrated every palestinian death with immense pleasure…”

Remember 911? Who were the people celebrating in the streets and distributing candies that day? Were they Zionists or Jews?

Voice of Insanity,
S.O Muffin is dead right on calling you on your racism, but it is your bigotry towards Muslims that is every bit as disturbing as your indulgence of genocidal Anti-Semitism. Towards Muslims you appear to believe that we must conduct a dialogue predicated on the assumption that Muslims just can’t help themselves – this is the affectation of of all moral relativists (a misnomer really, moral relativists are really moral equivocators arguing in bad faith), so we have a dialogue such as one would conduct with small and especially wilful and unreasonable children where we carefully avoid calling them on anything upsetting.
You end up being three times a committed bigot in your casual acceptance of Islamist supremacism and willingness to see in a theology of subjugation and reduction to the status of second class citizens of non muslims a basis for peaceful co-existance. You seem unable to see that in Quaradawi’s view the treatment of non muslims by muslims – even where benign – is exclusivley dependent on what Muslim’s may or may not be obligated to do according to Muslim law, and thus entirely deprives non-muslims of any inherent rights whatsoever. I am not arguing that rights do not entail obligations on the part of those expected to respect them, but in Quradawi’s case this question does not arise as rights are entirely absent WRT non muslims.
You are a perfect distillation of the sort of idiocies sadly ubiquitous amongst people a little too insistent on thinking themselves the liberal, reasonable, progressive left – who end up endorsing the illiberal, unreasonable, reactionary far right.

VOR – I agree with the fundamental principle of dialogue. This is clearly a critical precondition of breaking through the morass of suspicion and hostility and falsehoods that overdetermine the views of all people within the I/P paradigm.

But what confuses me is why are you so committed to punting for Qaradawi. Surely the first rule of this dialogue is to recognise that the Qaradawi’s of this world should be avoided at all costs. He is toxic, overwhelmingly a hater of the Jewish people, a link in a chain of hatred that goes back at least 1400 years,a man who has a disproportionate influence on closed minds and, in the first instance, should be marginalised in order to progress the dialogue.

Dialogue with the likes of Qaradawi is a small beginning step in the right direction.

Dialogue, in this case, meaning “Qaradawi talks, you listen”. If you think Qaradawi has even the slightest interest in hearing what you have to say, I have a beachfront property in Slovenia for you, very cheap.

it is arguable that Islam obliges Muslims to guarantee that non-Muslims are even better treated than ordinary believers.

It is not arguable. It is utter bollocks.

What is interesting about this long and fascinating insight in to the mental landscape of a ‘moderate’ Islamist, is that so much is ‘given’. My status as a non-Moslem is ‘given’, as are my ‘rights’, which will be ‘protected’ – in this Islamist paradise.

Where does voting come in? Who makes (and repeals) the Law? Have I missed something?

You haven’t missed anything. As Pat Condell puts it, “You submit. That’s the deal.”

Jews as “Apes and Pigs”. Sura 5.54 “Take not the Christians and The Jews as friends……”

That’s Q5:51, actually. And the “apes and pigs” tidbit is Q5:60 in the same harangue.

Ouch. s/Slovenia/Slovakia/g.

As it is clearly written in the Hamas charter, Israel/Palestine have been Muslim ever since the conquest (yes, they admit to having conquered it) and will be Muslim for ever.

The conquest argument doesn’t really work in favor of the Muslims; it is only exhortative, in lecturing other Muslims on what they think needs to be “taken back”. (Al-Andalus, anyone?)

That patch of real estate has been conquered a gazillion times, by, inter alia, Assyrians, Babylonians, Achaemenids, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Mongols, Mameluks, Ottomans, British/Allies. Note that the Muslim subset doesn’t even form an uninterrupted sequence, so “ever since the conquest” is basically bullshit anyway.

Voice of Insanity,
S.O Muffin is dead right on calling you on your racism, but it is your bigotry towards Muslims that is every bit as disturbing as your indulgence of genocidal Anti-Semitism. Towards Muslims …………

Do you know what the pharse “word salad” means? Ever heard of the word “Babel”?

Voice of Reason:”These are liberal values and are starkly different from the views are we often told are the sole emanation from Islamic scholars. We have to seize the chance to engage in debate moderates like Qaradawi. And we should condemn outright those so bigoted against Muslims that they would raise any small quibble as a reason to avoid dialogue with them.”

Small quibble? No – it is not a question of a small quibble. Qaradawi is taking Holocaust revisionism to a new level.

It is neither sensible nor productive to engage in dialogue with such a person. It is, however, sensible and productive to discuss such a person’s views, and hope that he is never ever admitted into polite company.

I am (almost) speechless. Voice of Reason really wants to maintain that the belief that Hitler was an instrument of divine justice is compatible with liberal views? How many of your ‘liberal’ friends also hold that the Holocaust was a holy act, VoR? Do you agree with Qaradwi on this point? Or do you just not think that Holocaust justification (not even Holocaust denial, for crying out loud) is really not such a big deal?

Thanks John – I was looking for a term to describe this new take on Holocaust whajamacallit.

Yes Holocaust justification does the trick.

Or Holocaust consolidation?

Holocaust extension?

Voice of Reason, I think is better renamed Voice of Hatred rather than Voice of Insanity as insanity is suggestive perhaps of a harmless loon whereas his/her type of irrational thought must contain some form of hatred even if it remains unacknowlged by its bearer.

Johan W, VoR and his ilk are afflicted with the same racism of low expectations that TheIrie manifests. He (and they) think brown people are helpless automatons who can only react to what others do and have no free will. Hence some nutter (who happens to be fairly brown-skinned) ranting about a new Holocaust can’t help it, but rather is only helplessly reacting (almost as if programmed) to the existence of the (conveniently usually lighter-skinned) Jews.

Zkharya

What about Islamic antisemitism e.g. re. contra Arab and ‘Islamic’ Jews? Does Qaradawi acknowledge such a thing even exists?

Qaradawi is a scumbag who will say different things to different audiences.

It is who he is.

It is who he will always be.

The extreme left will bring to the foreground the more acceptable things that this babbling murderous cleric has said because, under everything, he opposes the US influence on Muslems and as such, is perceived by the looney left as a ‘fellow’ traveller. They don’t want to recall for a minute what the Iranian Islamic revolution did to leftists in Iran. What it still does to leftists in fact.

“Voice of Reason is the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlin (sic).” – David All.

That is not true or even close to being true. I imagine you are an American. Chamberlain serves one continuing purpose and that is to provide American Firster’s with a fig leaf.

Somehow this thread reminds me of my recent argument with Sunny. Anyone remember me saying that Islamic true-believers would fail to disapprove of the Holocaust?

Voice of Reason is suggesting that genocidal, holocaust approving fanatics “ARE the Muslim moderates”, funny that puts him only a hair’s breadth from my position, which is that Islam is an irredeemably evil cult.

I’m not stupid enough to ever characterize genocidal intent as “moderate” though.

there were Muslims who protected Jews from the Nazis, who fought against the Nazi’s, and who were killed in concentration camps. There are Muslims who have been declared “righteous gentiles” by Yad Vashem and other Holocaust memorial groups. The majority of Allied troops that landed on the beaches of Provence in August, 1944 were “free French” Muslims from North and West Africa. Muslims fought with the Allies in France, Italy, Stalingrad, and Leningrad. Nasty lil fukers these Muslims aren they???

Albania was the only Muslim majority country in Europe. Albania was the only country in Europe that had a larger Jewish population at the end of the war than before the war. Not one Albanian Jew or any other Jew who came to Albania for protection was turned over to the Nazis. Nasty fukers theese Muslims hey????

Selahattin Ulkumen,The turkish consul at Rohdes saved a number of Jews from certain death at Ayschwitz, the Nazis killed his wife as a result….nasty lil muslim man hey????

The Central Mosque of Paris served as a shelter for hundreds of French Jewish children being rescued from deportation to death camps. This mosque was built in the 1920s, as an expression of gratitude from France for the over half-million Muslims from its African possessions who fought alongside the French in the 1914-1918 war. About 100,000 of them died in the trenches.

The Central Mosque of Paris served as a shelter for hundreds of French Jewish children being rescued from deportation to death camps. This mosque was built in the 1920s, as an expression of gratitude from France for over half-million Muslims from its African possessions who fought alongside the French in the 1914-1918 war. About 100,000 of them died in the trenches. watch this film their children are like our own children you may learn more…desgusting these muslims!!!

Thousands of Moroccan and Indian Muslim troops voluntarily served in the liberation of Italy. They risked and gave their lives along with Polish freedom fighters and American GIs at Monte Cassino. They were obviously reading a funny version of the Koran!!!

Finally here’s a verse from the Koran

“Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do” (Quran 4:135).

Such a vile view in the Koran No???

Wake up you pathetic bunch of excuses for humanity your an abomination on your own Race and Faith!

Read this line…There are Good and Bad in all race and religions including Islam…It does not make the whole race or faith bad!
You chose to highlight a few verses from the Koran which were revealed for situations at the time….and are twisting them to confirm your own racist behaviour in the same way a minority of Idiots in Islam are using them to do whatever they want!

Hate will never win over Hate!!!

B.P.: I have plenty of sympathy to what you’ve said. Hatred is always personal, as is the interpretation of any (religious or otherwise) scripture. People, whether Muslims or not, have scaled the heights of humanity or plumbed the depths of inhumanity as individuals, regardless of their ostensible “religious belief” but because of the way they interpreted it. Those, on this and other threads, who are spewing essentialist hatred and painting an entire faith group with the same brush are simply wrong.

Yet, my feeling is that you are criticising only one group that deserves criticism. Take “Voice of Reason”, “semite” and others on this thread who defended Qaradawi. Read their arguments. It is they who are in fact saying that this is what we should expect from “moderate” Muslims! In the perverted world of a purveyor of racism like “Voice of Reason”, justifying the Holocaust and calling for another one is the expression of moderate Islam, one with which we should “have a dialogue”.

Please tell me how different are they from those who attribute the worst to Islam? Because, you know, they themselves attribute the worst to Islam. The only difference is that they happily agree with that worst.

No it means protected.

“Protected” from what, you idiot?

Are you saying Islam is a protection racket?

If so, I agree with you, Blah.

The point is there is no Moderate or Extremist Islam…there are people with moderate or extremist views with thier own interpretation of the religious codes. These different interprtations exist in all religions…..

There are right wing christians with some very extreme views…

The views of Orthodox Rabbis differ to that of other rabbis….

What disgusts me is the people on here have qualified themselves as expert scholars on the teachings of the Koran and have written extremely insulting views on Mohammed, a man deeply loved by 1.2billion people on this planet. yes critique of people like Qardawi and other religious leaders is valid based on evidence of inaccuracies they speak but to write such filth against the founder of Islam is pure Islamaphobia and the worst form of racism…If Mohammed was alive now and his actions were questionable then it would be a fair point as we have evidence to base opinions on…but to base such insulting judgement on history is pure Racism..

John P….. protected from the number of tribal wars that were prevalent at the time!!!!

This is what you Idiots fail to realise…some of the verses revealed were to deal with situations of the time and the interpretation is done by learned scholars in conjuction with other authentic books…not by you Tunnel visioned racist idiots!

Blah/Flanker,

” both European, Arab and Asian Christian and Islamic societies had the potential to murder or effectively drive out most of their Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries, only latent or partly realised, in discrimination or persecution, for the most part, but capable of developing into genocide or effective ethnic cleansing when circumstances changed.”

Likewise the Jewish state and its native Arab population”

Well, Palestinian and other Arab leaderships threatened to drive out Palestinian Jews, or worse.

The latter drove out non- or anti-Zionist Arab Jews instead, but still at the behest, request or in accord with the wishes of the Palestinian Arab leadership.

The Muslim Brotherhood played a crucial part in spreading the European antisemitism that facilitated that too.

And, VoR, I doubt Qaradawi has taken much of look at, let alone adopted a critical stance to, the part his very own Muslim Brotherhood played in the spread of ‘European’ antisemitism throughout the Arab Islamic world.

Yeah, “dhimmi” means “protected as long as you pay the Jizhya”.

Much better than Christendom, sure. But still ends in most Arab or ‘Islamic’ Jews being effectively driven out, mostly to Israel.

BP-John P….. protected from the number of tribal wars that were prevalent at the time!!!!

There were tribal wars in Constantinople?

In Alexandria?

In Damascus?

In Vienna in 1683?

Once again, protection from what and from whom?

And why?

And, of course, the moment the mohamadeans were turfed out of Andalusia, the Andalusians no longer paid protection, did they?

The Andalusians could protect themselves.

As can I.

And as such, I’ve no need for Bronze Age savages to step in and do so in my place.

Get that?

Islam is but an elaborate protection racket, and its founder but a vulgar mafioso.

John P….Bearing in mind most major wars around that time were based around religion…DO you not think protection was better then the actions of the Crusaders??? what do the Action of the crusaders render the position of christianity in your well informed judgemental opinion?

Watch this video BP and you’ll see islam’s ‘protection’ in action!

And the turd at the end gives the usual islamist double-speak.

http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/spip.php?article903

A MUST WATCH for all commenting here.

John P why dont you answer my question? Wats your view on the protection offerred by Muslims opposed to the butchering of Jews in the crusades?

what do the Action of the crusaders render the position of christianity in your well informed judgemental opinion?

I AM a crusader. :o)

<i.Wats your view on the protection offerred by Muslims opposed to the butchering of Jews in the crusades?

They (the muslims) were being opportunistic and cynical, exploiting the vulnerability of Jews to rip off money.

Don’t you know what a protection racket is?

Muslims, afterall, are condmened ( and ‘condemned’ IS the proper term) to imitate the ‘perfect example’ of prophet (profit) Mohammed.

John P n Co…..

I really do hope you say that in zest..Would you like me to remind you how many Jews the crusaders Butchered? Or perhaps the Cannibalisitc Franks???

What people tend to forget by taking these literal meanings of the word “protec”t is for example Jews and Muslims fought alongside each other to defend Jerusalem. What do you think would have happenned to Jews that were living under the “Mafia protection of Muslims” if the crusaders had conquered those areas?

Here are some Jews that lived under Islamic rule..

Hasdai Ibn Shaprut (915-990 CE) was the chief minister of the Islamic Caliphate of Cordova, governed by the most powerful monarch in Western Europe, Abdur-Rahman III. Pretty Mafioso behaviour hey?

Samuel Ibn Nagrella ha-Nagid (993-1056 CE) was another powerful Jewish chief minister of Granada in Islamic Spain. Abraham Ibn Daud (ca. 1161), a Jewish chronicler, elaborated upon ha-Nagid’s significance for the spread of the Jewish tradition:

‘He achieved great good for Israel in Spain, the Maghreb, Ifriqiya, Egypt, Sicily, indeed as far as the academy in Babylonia and the Holy City. He provided material benefits out of his own pocket for students of Torah in all these countries. He also purchased many books of the Holy Scriptures as well as of the Mishna and Talmud…..Such awful protection from the Muslims!!!

Bahya ibn Paqudah, a medieval Andalusian Jewish writer, describes the prosperous existence of the Jews in the Islamic lands in a treatise titled Kitab al-Hidaya (ca. 1080):

‘If one of our contemporaries looks for similar miracles now, let him examine objectively our situation among the Gentiles [Muslims in this case] since the beginning of the Diaspora and the way our affairs are managed in spite of the differences between us and them both secret and open, which are well known to them. Let him see that our situation, as far as living and subsistence are concerned, is the same as theirs, or even better, in times of war and civil disturbances. You see how both their leaders and their vulgar peasants toil much more than the middle and lower classes among us, according to our Lord’s promise contained in the Scriptures.’

Born during this era of Islamic rule, the famous Golden Age of Spanish Jewry (circa 900-1200) produced such luminaries as: statesman and diplomat Hasdai ibn Shaprut, vizier and army commander Shmuel ha-Nagid, poet-philosophers Solomon Ibn Gabriol and Judah Halevi, and at the apex of them all, Moses Ben Maimon, also known among the Spaniards as Maimonides.’

I can give you a number of other Jewish examples……

Some of the experts on Koran and Hadith Id like your views on the below as well….

In the book of Sahih al-Bukhari, Prophet Muhammad (SA) is reported to have said:

‘Any one who kills a non-Muslim (Mu’ahid [protected one]) protected by the Islamic state will not smell the fragrance of paradise even though one can identify it from the distance of 40 years journey.’

‘Omar bin Khattab [the 2nd Caliph] said on his death bed that whoever shall succeed me must fulfill the promises of Allah and his Messenger. Whatever treaty has been made with non-Muslims must be respected by my successor. He shall fight (if he has to) to protect them and he shall not put a burden upon them which they can not bear.’[9]

“Oh you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as just witnesses, and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety: and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is well-acquainted with what you do.” (Al-Ma’idah)

Any views from the Islamaphobes????

I really do hope you say that in zest..Would you like me to remind you how many Jews the crusaders Butchered? Or perhaps the Cannibalisitc Franks???

Look, western civilisation is and always will be far superior to that islam.

That’s why you’re living in the former…and not the latter!

And isn’t it fitting for a Muslim to be firmly anchored ( obsessed by?) in the 11th century, as though the events of a 1000 years ago are still current.

And BP, you weren’t careful in you haste to denounce ‘crusaders’

Why?

In order to do so you inadverntly admitted that Jews, and plenty of them, were present in Jerusalem at the time.

Glad to see you feel that Jews were, are, and always will be, legitimate inhabitants of the city.

You daring apostate, you!

Mr P…..I have no underlying agendas so no need for me to be careful about Crusaders….The existence of Jews in Jerusalem is covered in the Koran and the hadith, If that is your rationale for the existence of Israel perhaps youd like to state a view on the rights of Muslims as well who were living there……

As for me harking back to a 1000 years ago is that not what you and the world of Zion are doing when laying claim to Israel????

By the way my view is we are where we are and Israel should pull back to pre 1967 borders and give Palestinians a state and not a prison and the Palestinians should accept Israel.

Another point on harking back a 1000 years…in more recent times Even the Tyrannical Sadam Hussein ensured the safety of Jews in Iraq…Saddam even had a Christian as his foreign minister!! (before anyone does a twist n shout I had no time for SaddamI) another point 25,000 Jews live in Iran!!! yes Iran!!! They have been offerred 30,000 pounds on top of the usual israeli state package to emigrate to Israel but they dont want to move becuase they love being terrorised by the Iranians…oh by the way they have a Jewish MP in Iran tooo….

The Jews that did leave the Arab countries did not leave because of mistreatment they left becuase of the cash and land incentives Israel offerred to ensure the Arab population didnt overwhelm the Jewish population?

Is B.P. one of those tiny minority of pyschotic Muslims we are warned about so much? One of those anti-Islamic ones that somehow manage to mangle and pervert everything that they attempt to interpret?

What does B.P. stand for exactly? Bunny Piss?

“The Jews that did leave the Arab countries did not leave because of mistreatment they left becuase of the cash and land incentives Israel offerred to ensure the Arab population didnt overwhelm the Jewish population?”

That’s one Muslim in denial about Islamic antisemitism, discrimination against and persecution of Arab and/or ‘Islamic’ Jews.

Qaradawi makes another.

B.P.
10 February 2009, 4:32 pm

[...]

Another point on harking back a 1000 years…in more recent times Even the Tyrannical Sadam Hussein ensured the safety of Jews in Iraq

Really, BP? When was that? Before or after he hung about 10 leading members of the Jewish community of Baghdad as “spies”, after which the remainder of a community that — as recently as the early 20th century accounted for 25% of Baghdad’s population — fled with the assistance of the Kurds.

As for the remaining Jewish population of Iran, there are at least 5 times as many Persian Jews living in Israel, and they made the journey at a time when immigrating to Israel guaranteed living in tents in the desert for four or five years and enduring life amidst all those damned Ashkenazim ever after.

What disgusts me is the people on here have qualified themselves as expert scholars on the teachings of the Koran and have written extremely insulting views on Mohammed, a man deeply loved by 1.2billion people on this planet. yes critique of people like Qardawi and other religious leaders is valid based on evidence of inaccuracies they speak but to write such filth against the founder of Islam is pure Islamaphobia and the worst form of racism…If Mohammed was alive now and his actions were questionable then it would be a fair point as we have evidence to base opinions on…but to base such insulting judgement on history is pure Racism..

No you asshole. Brave people in the west, martyrs to secularism if you will, gave their lives to grant us the right to criticize the church and to criticize religion. It’s an all important freedom, and you’re NOT going to be able to take it away here the way your oppressive tyrant, Mohammad, denied you that right in the Muslim lands your co-religionists oppress.

So, no, criticizing Mohammad is not racism, it is not bigotry and it never will be. It is my right, and if you try to take that right away from me, you will face a fight like the church faced a fight. I am perfectly willing to see people arrested to protect my rights, I am willing to see people deported to protect my rights, I am willing to see borders closed to protect my rights, I am willing to see people killed to protect my right.

Back the fuck off. You will not get to punish heresy IN MY country. You will not get to punish heresy!

and at the apex of them all, Moses Ben Maimon, also known among the Spaniards as Maimonides.

You clearly inhabit a parallel islamist universe.

Maimonides fled the ‘tolerance’ of ole Al-andalus for the relative ’safety’ of Morocco with nothing but the shirt on his back.

But Wait! There’s more! Then he had to flee Morocco ( that islamic tolerance again) for the fatamids of Egypt, once again with only the shirt on his back.

You should read his epistle to the Jews of Yemen, BP, the one in which he describes ‘profit’ as a “Meshuggah”.

As a Christian I can at least fess-up to Christian anti-semitism and even attempt a few awkward apologies.

Pity your pidly Islam doesn’t provide you with the same strength.

What disgusts me is the people on here have qualified themselves as expert scholars on the teachings of the Koran and have written extremely insulting views on Mohammed, a man deeply loved by 1.2billion people on this planet.

Muhammad is loved because Muslims are taught unquestioning obedience and dumbstruck awe of him from even before they can think. Much like Stalin was in his time… and Mao… and Kim Il-Sung…

In that sense, Islam is the most successful personality cult in history.

If Mohammed was alive now and his actions were questionable then it would be a fair point as we have evidence to base opinions on…but to base such insulting judgement on history is pure Racism..

The historicist apology, that Muhammad was “a man of his times”, doesn’t work because by Islamic dogma, Muhammad was a man for all time. He was the perfect man, the paragon, the example to follow and obey, as the Quran admonishes about a dozen times.

It may be technically incorrect, for example, to call Muhammad a pedophile, because there was no such concept in the 7th century; but the fact remains that Muhammad’s recorded behavior in Islamic sources, i.e. from only within the Islamic tradition, far from making pedophilia reprehensible, actually makes the deflowering of prepubescent wives an act worthy of emulation. 1.2 billion may love the man who set such an example, but plenty more than 1.2 billion have a different opinion, and it isn’t racist, sorry.

The fact is, Muhammad stands condemned by the evidence of the very tradition that reveres him.

qidniz, could we focus on the genocide, the oppression, the hatred he promoted, demanded from his followers, the edicts which ruin peace, ruin government, ruin the the lives of women – more than whether he got stiffies from little girls? There’s some matter of perspective.

I see you have Mohammad “condemned by the evidence of the very tradition that reveres him” and I can only disappointed that you left out every issue that matter, in which he is also condemned by his how tradition.

Sorry that should read “you left out every issue that matters”

I see you have Mohammad “condemned by the evidence of the very tradition that reveres him” and I can only disappointed that you left out every issue that matter[s], in which he is also condemned by his how tradition.

I was addressing the “Muhammad was a (historically bound) man of his time” apologetic often trotted out to excuse Muhammad’s behavior, as recorded by the tradition that wanted to preserve the memory for posterity. Of the many examples of dodgy behavior, I couldn’t say which ought to be considered the starkest or the most outrageous.

But this thread is actually about Qaradawi. Muhammad only comes in as the subject of Qaradawi’s apologetics. So an example or two of how indefensible the subject is should suffice, to make the general point of how Muhammad stands condemned.

teachings of the Koran and have written extremely insulting views on Mohammed, a man deeply loved by 1.2billion people on this planet.BP

Yes, and there are 2.5 billion Christians, as well as some 14 million Jews, who feel that some wayward Bedoin’s delusional opinions about the crucifixtion and the Hebrews are extremely insulting.

But hey! Don’t let me stop you from engaging in narccisstic self-pity.

I was addressing the “Muhammad was a (historically bound) man of his time” apologetic often trotted out to excuse Muhammad’s behavior, as recorded by the tradition that wanted to preserve the memory for posterity.

I quite agree with your angle.

Any true prophet would have to transcend the mores of his times. Otherwise, they’re not a prophet.

To claim, in defense of the undefendable (pedophilia), that Mohammed was a product of his times, that his moral positions and obscene behavior were conditioned and even determined by the temporal; in short, that he couldn’t help himself, is tantamount to saying he isn’t a prophet at all.

Comparing Islam’s time-specific ‘morality’ to the beautiful transcendance of Moses’ Ten Commandments, for example, highlights the differences quite nicely, when it comes to distinguishing fake prophets from genuine ones.

Others have picked up on VoR’s amazing “unhelpful” as applied to Zaradawi’s remarks about Hitler and the Jews and how as Hitler didn’t finish the job the believers will do it instead. Well, VoR’s remarks are helpful to some of us, as it lets us see what kind of filth a self-styled progressive can swallow.

So this is the guy we should “engage” with. I know that governments have to “engage” with i.e. negotiate with or deal with or suck up to lousy power holders eg Gerry Adams or Saudi Arabia for reasons of state or trade or alliances. Zaradawi’s power is his influence as a religious figure. So what are we supposed to get from “engaging”? Presumably that he will tone down on the Jew hatred when he speaks to his followers?

And who is this “we” and what kind of “engaging” does he mean? Does “we” mean a left political party and taking the guy round on anti-Israel rallies? Or does “engaging” mean choosing him to speak at the next “progressive” conference? Or having him write for the Comment is Free page in the Guardian? I really would like to know who the “we” are and what good effects VoR envisages will come from this engaging.

Once progressives “engaged” with trade unionists, feminists, socialists, democrats. Now it’s with vile theocrats.

What a piece of work is the voice of Reason!

Yes, and there are 2.5 billion Christians, as well as some 14 million Jews, who feel that some wayward Bedoin’s delusional opinions about the crucifixion and the Hebrews are extremely insulting.

But hey! Don’t let me stop you from engaging in narccisstic self-pity.

Spot on.

Any true prophet would have to transcend the mores of his times. Otherwise, they’re not a prophet.

This argument actually cuts no ice in Islamic circles. First, because it flows from general principles (about prophets); by contrast, Islam is completely deontological. And second, Islamic scholars have long dodged the issue of Muhammad’s prophethood by arguing that he was actually a Messenger (viz., a rasul, not a nabi’) and thus exempt from the usual “proofs” or criteria.

The point actually is that Muhammad’s status as paragon (al-Insan al-Kamil) is independent of this. He was nominated by the Quran, which is Allah’s word, and therefore sufficient by itself.

That’s all that counts from an Islamic perspective. And actually simplifies the reductio refutation:-)

The point actually is that Muhammad’s status as paragon (al-Insan al-Kamil) is independent of this. He was nominated by the Quran, which is Allah’s word, and therefore sufficient by itself.

I know, but due to the course of human history pedophilia is now considered utterly repugnant in just about every human society.

Allah’s ‘messenger’ will have to deal with that.

Islamist ’scholars’ may attempt to skirt the probleme through theological sleight of hand, but the fact remains that humanity has largely outgrown pedophilia ( as a social institution), and that men who persist in such archaic behaviors are to be condemned and, in fact, are condemned.

Were Mohammed alive today, he’d be behind bars.

And this, even in some majority-muslim countries.

Garth: Yes in your sorry little world of Zion i am one of those psychotic muslims! ;-)

Temper temper John P….touched a raw nerve of truth in your sorry little world did i??? Your Country??? well let me tell you something you turd it aint just your country…I was born here i am a British Muslim!!!! I probably pay more Tax then you probably earn!! unlike you I mix with people of all race and religion, my wife works with children with special needs of all faiths…I help in my area on drug prevention by working with the council in my spare time….If this country ever came under attack I would fight for ENGLAND.. for MY country, a sorry little keyboard warrior turd like you probably wouldnt even open the front door!!!! Now go crawl back under the hole you came out off you turd!!!!

B.P. Dont waste your energy going to their level, stick to the facts…you have posted a number of good points and it wont mean nothing to these Islamaphobes..The very fact your a muslim means in their eyes nothing you say matters, but keep at it, gives a balance to people who visit here occasionally.

I showed this thread to a few non muslim friends today and they couldnt believe what they were reading. I wont repeat the words they used to describe a few of the people here.

the fact remains that humanity has largely outgrown pedophilia ( as a social institution), and that men who persist in such archaic behaviors are to be condemned and, in fact, are condemned.

And this, even in some majority-muslim countries.

But Shari’a could never put Muhammad behind bars, because the Quran itself sanctions sex with underage wives. (Q65:4 in the light of Q33:49).

Something for the multiculturalists to think about when the Muslims start demanding Shari’a.

Bravo Mufti Dikniz….

Voice of Reason, Qaradawi supports the suicide murder of Israeli civilians, including pregnant women and children because the children will grow up to become soldiers. He supports the killing of gays too. He is a disgusting apology for a human being.

His views are execrable and all your weaseling doesn’t make them any less so.

And B.P having the love of 1.2 billion on this planet is not a qualification for anything. Mohammed was a tyrant, a brigand, deceitful and duplicitous and a paedophile. That 1.2 billion people believe that he is someone worthy of emulation speaks volumes about their gullibility and doesn’t necessarily put them in the right.

VoR, are you by any chance a relation or reincarnation of Mockbul Ali?

And B.P having the love of 1.2 billion on this planet is not a qualification for anything. Mohammed was a tyrant, a brigand, deceitful and duplicitous and a paedophile. That 1.2 billion people believe that he is someone worthy of emulation speaks volumes about their gullibility and doesn’t necessarily put them in the right.

Once again I’m somewhat aghast that his call to kill the Jews isn’t worthy of mention.

Once again I’m somewhat aghast that his call to kill the Jews isn’t worthy of mention.

There’s plenty worth mentioning, in the abstract, but I think the discussion needs to track back to our, ahem, “moderate Mufti”.

(As for Muhammad’s faults, Ali Sina’s chargesheet is pretty extensive, and for years he has offered $50,000 to anyone who can refute his case. Many have tried and all have bitten the dust.)