Harry's Place

Where was the ‘decent left’ 23 years ago when similar treatment was being meted out to Ray Honeyford ? Nowhere at all.
It’s a bit late for indignation now, all you can offer is tea and sympathy to the head teacher involved- which admittedly is more than the ‘decents’ did for Honeyford in 1986.

Weak. Did it occur to you that perhaps the Sheffield Telegraph and the BBC have different reporters, and that maybe the comments about racism and inclusiveness by “a school insider” weren’t made to the BBC journo?

Stop looking for librulz under the bed.

Full account at Timesonline:

“She wanted to hold assemblies for all the pupils, which would include all faiths. That is what happens in most schools but some parents wanted things to stay as they were. When she tried to stop them, feeling they did nothing to promote inclusiveness, she was accused of being racist.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article5697694.ece

Reading the BBC account looks like special preference for Muslim pupils at the expense of community cohesion.

But the BBC of course would not be able to understand this.

Wankers.

There are in fact several ‘traditions’ in the way schools have held assemblies since the 1944 Education Act. So, in the days when non-faith state schools had the mix of religions and Christian sects to include Jews, (Roman) Catholics, Jehova’s Witnesses, Christadelphians etc etc, then they system worked like this: there was an explicitly Christian assembly that was thought to be ecumenical enough to take in most Protestant groups. Catholics didn’t attend and didn’t have their own assembly unless a Nun or Priest visited the school that day. Jehova’s W’s attended nothing and when the number of Jews got above a certain number and if there was a Jewish teacher in the school, then a Jewish assembly would be held. Some schools but not all, were honest enough to point out that attendance at assembly wasn’t compulsory and children could withdraw if they had a letter from parents.

In plenty of schools in the last period of time, the law hasn’t been kept. An act of worship hasn’t been held every day in every school and when assemblies have been held, they haven’t included an act of worship. They have often been ‘themed’ ie a moral or social or psychological theme has been raised, often through the use of fiction or poetry. Inspectors and parents who might have felt like being litigious have looked the other way.

This is why the country is fucked big time, What muslim’s want muslim’s get, As someone cleverer than me said

Democracy, Immigration, Multiculturalism

Pick any two

The word ‘Racism’ has become equivalent to the word ‘Wolf’ in the story the ‘Boy Who Cried Wolf’ and its all the fault of the Left. The word has been used for decades to describe any person who disagrees with the Left, on almost any subject, almost as much as the word fascist.
This teachers attempt to scrap separate assemblies is a classic example of a person trying to make good contribution to community harmony because she knows there is a problem, and can see there is trouble ahead, but alas she just gets the usual Left wing and Islamist Chant of ‘racism’, I am astonished they didn’t use the word fascist but they may save that one for the next teacher who dares to challenge them and there dogma.
Well it seems ‘the people’ are not quite as scared of that word anymore, which is a Great, Great shame because we need it now more than ever, we Really, Really do.

I have to share this quote, which seems applicable to so much that HP debates:-

“The truth may not always win, but it is always right!” – Eli E. Hertz”

The only kids who didn’t attend school assemblies at my school were a couple of Plymouth Brethren girls. I don’t know what I’d have done without school assemblies to teach me all the important lessons in life. I loved those fables.

In my catholic primary school, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs were all excluded from mass (which we had instead of assembly), and very jealous we were of them too, because they were allowed outside to play football (obviously to compensate for having to go to hell). I can’t remember what happened to the protestants (or indeed if there were any at all).

In my secular (or atheist, however you want to put it) secondary school, most faiths attended assembly, apart from I think the Plymouth Brethrens.

Actually, I’m remembering a bizarre assembly which was about I think Arthur Ashe’s brave battle against HIV. It seemed very topical except that it became obvious that the teacher giving the assembly was completely unaware that he had in fact died that morning. A very strange coincidence.

“This is why the country is fucked big time, What muslim’s want muslim’s get, As someone cleverer than me said

Democracy, Immigration, Multiculturalism

Pick any two”

How about racist, fascist, paranoid?
It expresses the identical motifs of the far-right across Europe including the BNP here and the Freedom Party in Austria.

The country may well be fucked, but it is you who is the biggest dick.

OK not at all on topic, and maybe not even real, but…

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/fail-owned-jihad-fail.jpg

Whoops.

ts not RACIST to disagree with Islamism…Islam is a religion not a race.
Its not racist to say that we dont want any part of this creeping cancer of Islam.
Muslims are not a race, they are a religion. Islam creates muslims of all peoples and nationalities. So dont take this shit of “Racism”.
I hate Islam and its vile paedophile prophet (who didnt prophesy anything!)

I suggest you blame neither the parents nor the headteacher because 1) there is no way that anyone outside of that school community will know everything that’s going on, no matter what the press say and 2) the origin of the problem lies with the fact that the government of the day (I forget what colour) insisted on making statutory, the holding of a daily act of worship that was Christian in content. (It’s not compulsory to attend, only for it to be held).

This means that the moment any party (teachers, local authority, group of parents, a single parent) wants to make claims about what should or should not go on in assembly can find evidence in the law to kick someone.

One of the daft consequences of the law is that you have atheists holding christian assemblies. There are many other daft consequences, one of which may be (note; ‘may be’) this. But before anyone develops the thesis that Muslims are separatists because they won’t attend Christian assemblies (!) please note the posts above that point out that other religions and other Christian sects take the same right to withdraw and always have done since 1944.

Correction to the above: the government didn’t make it statutory for the first time. They just beefed up the clause that had been in the Act since 1944 and made it explicit that the daily act of worship had to be mostly Christian. I haven’t got the exact wording in front of me. I believe they softened it slightly with a phrase about taking into consideration the intake of the school. I’ m just saying this from memory.

(I once knew it all off by heart because two of my children asked to withdraw from assemblies, and both times the schools got ratty about it, until I pointed out that it was within ‘my’ rights (not my children’s actually) to ask on their behalf that they could withdraw. )

http://www.humanism.org.uk/education/parents/worship-your-rights

Ignorance is Bliss ‘ said like a true left winger, right on cue, so predictable, so easy to spot, indeed probably the only words the left has “left”. Islam isn’t a race is it? You may be right about his feelings, expressed in his comment, but that really doesn’t matter anymore does it, because the word has been devalued and degraded by the left.
A very large portion of society now simply get angry when the left accuse all and sundry of ‘racism and fascism’, because it has been wielded by the left like a shield to deflect any criticism of any subject the left dislikes it has been, without a shadow of doubt devalued in the minds of many. The same thing has happened to the phrase ‘Islamophobia’ but on a much faster timescale, because you see ‘the people’ are not as Ignorant as you think.

Perhaps, guys, you’ve finally realised that us critics of the BBC actually have a point, y’know. Or is that too much to ask?

I’d like to know where exactly the spectre of “racism” was raised. There’s a quote from one Muslim in the Daily Mail:

“‘When Mrs Robinson took over she said she wanted one assembly for all the students,’ she said.

‘We didn’t have a problem with that but wanted a secular assembly where no hymns were sung and topics involving all the children could be discussed. But after a while hymns were introduced again and we objected.

‘We told Mrs Robinson we wanted our children withdrawn and to have a separate assembly again.

If this is accurate, it’s a reasonable complaint. Singing a hymn is a religious act (if taken seriously), so of course Muslims might object, whether the hymns were specifically Christian or just vaguely “spiritual” affairs. Better a non-religious assembly than an “interfaith” affair.

I heard recently of a school assembly where the Muslim girls spoke about Gaza. They included an Israeli/Nazi comparison. Afterwards the teachers told them how good it was.

Ignorance is bliss You have a very appropriate name

Ah yes the old racism thing, You commie pricks just keep banging the same old drum.

It was indeed outrageous what was meted out to Honeyford.

We need some legislation on the books to really push back tide of Shariah separatism in schools.

I think the Headmistress was quite right in her attempt to unite the school. The seperate assemblies for muslims and non-muslims seem precisely the wrong thing to do. Every morning, the first lesson that the children were repeatedly exposed to was the fact that their school was seperated into two rival camps, and that the differences between them were so significant as to be irreconcilable. Now it appears to have been confirmed by the parents. If they wanted to stoke up trouble for the future, they could not have made a better job of it.

Another thing that occurs to me, is that especially in the Anglican tradition, there are very many hymns which refer only to God, and could just as well be sung by muslim and jewish participants. The same is true of the Lords Prayer.

Every morning, the first lesson that the children were repeatedly exposed to was the fact that their school was seperated into two rival camps

Not really wishing to defend this, as I don’t agree with religious assemblies in school, but it wasn’t “every morning”, it was one morning a week.

Actually, I should clarify that – I don’t agree with acts of worship in schools. I do agree with making use of parables from the various religions which can be used to make points about morality etc.

I am puzzled about this – the reports I read said she wanted an all-inclusive assembly but when she set this up it included elements of Christian belief or more specifically some of the music chosen was regarded as Christianity oriented, in the form of hymns and so objections were raised by the non Christians (I have to assume the by Muslims as I have never known a Hindu or a Sikh get into a row about this sort of thing but would like to be proved wrong). So in the end she reverted to separate assemblies?

Get rid of assemblies as anything but a secular gathering for school business, abolish all faith schools, ban all religious dress in school – there seems to be no other way to prevent the spread of this kind of hateful sectarianism to the next generation.

All the BBC reports I’ve heard today mentioned the stuff about her wanting to be “pro inclusion”.

However the local MP who was interviewed said that the separate assemblies were only once a week, which puts a different slant on things.

I once knew it all off by heart because two of my children asked to withdraw from assemblies, and both times the schools got ratty about it, until I pointed out that it was within ‘my’ rights (not my children’s actually) to ask on their behalf that they could withdraw. )

Michael, I withdrew a child (age 14) from a school module called “Philosophy of Religion” that compared Christianity with one other religion. They were free to choose that other religion. They chose Islam. I did it on the basis that I wasn’t having my child indoctrinated with a sanitised, MCB authorised curriculum on a religion who’s followers in some countries would kill him/her. Also, this was the ONLY exam module that they made COMPULSORY.

I was quite OK about my kids studying the general comparitive religion stuff including Islam.

“There is no compulsion in religion” says the Koran and yet our government can make it compulsory to study it.

I guess I’ll get flack for declaring my preference – but I stand by my principles.

The RE teacher actually agreed and said that their visits to mosques as part of the study resulted in attempts to draw the kids into getting closer to Islam and he/she felt that was something worth complaining about.

(”he/she” to protect my identity)

Iirc the reading was from a book called ‘1001 school’ assemblies and dealt with subjects like Robert the Bruce watching the spider or the life of Helen Keller. The most frequent ‘Hymn’ by far was ‘morning has broken’ by the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, though there was a risk of ‘There is a Green Hill’ aroun easter time. Some Catholics kept their kids out, along with Atheists, bretheren and Hindus. I always Imagined the Catholics who withdrew their kids were doing it to Make A Point, they iirc were what you might describe as the rather middle class Catholics, the council house catholics either weren’t bothered or weren’t pushy enough to find out what the law was and to demand their rights.

I know of at least one Catholic school where Moslems pray with the rest of the children. When asked a teacher replied parents knew of this and approved “At least something rather than nothing.”

Why has this school been allowed to create Moslem only set-a-side? Who are these ‘parents who objected’?

I think this needs to be pursued vigorously and with as much publicity as possible.

This is actually On Topic if you understand the context.

“Controversial anti-Muslim MP banned from the UK because of public order fears ”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/4582982/Controversial-anti-Muslim-MP-banned-from-the-UK-because-of-public-order-fears.html

I see a great HP article coalescing. More victory for threats!!

What if the protests at any school over Halal food or religious assembly threatened “public disorder”.

Who said the UK if f.cked?

“It will stop those who want to spread extremism, hatred and violent messages in our communities from coming to our country.

But what will it do to those already here? What will it do to its own FO employees?

The real problem here, as Michael Rosen pointed out, is the outdated DfES regulation stipulating that schools should hold a daily act of collective ( christian-oriented)worship. In reality few schools adhere to this rule and ,instead, have assembles themed on a moral/social basis. Moreover outside of the faith sector, I’d guess most teachers are either agnostic or atheists. Surely the message that should be going out from schools is tolerance, and that religion is a private matter.So isn’t it about time the government eliminates an absurd, antiquated law that is either ignored or hypocritically paid lip service to during inspections, before other ‘faith groups’ jump on the bandwagon? I wouldn’t hold my breath though, since New Labour-like the Tory govt before them- through academies have promoted the faith-based takeover of ‘failing’ secondary schools.

Does Robinson sound like a ‘racist’ or does she sound like a well meaning liberal who wanted to promote multiculturalism?

She sounds like neither. A multiculturalist approach to the issue would have children split up into their separate faith groups for assembly. Her policy was to overcome this separation by inventing an artificial Religion Lite that all supposedly could subscribe to. Not surprisingly, some of the more devout parents objected to her social experiment on unconsenting subjects, and complained. They were right to do so — it’s not for the state to overrule parents when it comes to the instilling of religious teachings and values. The best solution to this mess is as others have said: secular schools with religious education being the sole preserve of the home.

“There is no compulsion in religion” says the Koran and yet our government can make it compulsory to study it.

That verse has been Abrogated re the koran and that, it seems is a fact that lots of people seem quite unable to grasp.

Abrogated means it has been ‘cancelled’ due to a later verse which says the opposite thing,you see in the koran later verses which say the complete opposite of earlier verses are deemed to be the verses that are correct and hence that makes the earlier verses null and void, still with me.
Now if anyone thinks that I am ‘mistaken’ or that I am taking it out of ‘context’ then please direct me to the place or places were I can be ‘educated’ on the folly of my analysis. Sorry for the drift off topic, but feel free to prune, pruning is good, it helps the pruned grow stronger and healthier, well most of the time.

You may discover that many UK schools were founded by religious people. Some Head Teachers have taken the lead from the DfES who have asked for a daily assembly and act of worship to declare their school to be Christian-based and that their act of worship will be from a Christian perspective.

I believe we must keep tradition because one religion seems to have accelerated its position within UK society with impositions of behaviour based on not compromising their own beliefs.

Why don’t we say No to Shariah compliant financial instruments, as an example, so as to remove religion from any position in constraining how our Government behaves.

Check out the BNP cites (again, you seem to be familar with them). You will find the idea that the UK has succumbed to the wishes of a persecuted minority and that the “Muslims” get it good whilst we Brits suffer in silence. It is a racist view, but one that uses the same casuistry as you idiots to hide the fact. Look at what this fuckwit wrote,
“its not RACIST to disagree with Islamism…Islam is a religion not a race.
[note the "distinction" between "Islam" and "Islamism"]
Its not racist to say that we dont want any part of this creeping cancer of Islam.
[note the use of the term "Islam", not to mention the biological concept of "cancer".]
Muslims are not a race, they are a religion. Islam creates muslims of all peoples and nationalities. So dont take this shit of “Racism”.
I hate Islam and its vile paedophile prophet (who didnt prophesy anything!)
[Now note the racism against Islam as a religion]

Here’s another clue for you dickheads. One would assume according to your philology that one can only be “racist” against other “races”. These ignorant tosspots have not the slightest inkling that “race” is a concept born of the racist imagination. Unless of course they think that a person with a black skin, or a person with sidelocks (or worse, those without) are truly a “race”.

“Ignorance is bliss You have a very appropriate name” is what I would expect from someone who evidently hasn’t had an original thought in their lives.

The cruder elements of the left used to refer to racists as “scum” – how very right they are.

No doubt you will respond but your response is no more to me than the pieces of dog crap that gets stuck in the sole of one’s shoe after scaping it on the kerb.

Never mind, I am sure that, deep down, you thinkt that one day you will get “your” England back! Keep dreaming wankers.

“In their place she wanted to hold assemblies for all the pupils, which would encompass all faiths”

For faiths read superstitions. Why should schools give respect to superstitious nonsense that doesn’t deserve any? Instead, school assemblies should be secular, and the whole school curriculum should encourage children to see the world from a rational materialist perspective. Compulsory religious education should be part of this.

Enforced religious indoctrination in British schools doesn’t work anyway:

[David] Attenborough, who attended the Wyggeston Grammar School for Boys in Leicester in the 1930s, said he was astonished at manifestations of Christian faith.

“It never really occurred to me to believe in God – and I had nothing to rebel against, my parents told me nothing whatsoever. But I do remember looking at my headmaster delivering a sermon, a classicist, extremely clever … and thinking, he can’t really believe all that, can he? How incredible!”

So, let’s get the full implications of this rubbish. Antisemitism is racist because it attacks “Semites”. I know, perhaps some Jewish posters could send me their skull measurements, maybe their nose measurements, let me know how many bumps they have on their foreheads, and, according to one bright spark, a sample of their unrine, because apparently, according to the dictates of “race” there is a thing as “Jewish urine” (I kid you not). Once we have done that, then we’ll know the proper meaning of the word “racist” in its “objective” sense.

Interesting that such venom is spat on Muslims for the not unreasonable demand that they don’t want their children in a Christian assembly. I don’t wany my children in a Chirstian assemby either. I, myself, decided to go to Jewish assembly (which in my day, was twice a week – the other days were purely secular).

Of course, the real issue (comrades) is why the fuck there are any religious assemblies in school at all. Next these fuckwits will complain that there is Muslim cheder classes on a Sunday morning.

That verse has been Abrogated re the koran and that, it seems is a fact that lots of people seem quite unable to grasp.

Abrogated means it has been ‘cancelled’ due to a later verse which says the opposite thing,you see in the koran later verses which say the complete opposite of earlier verses are deemed to be the verses that are correct and hence that makes the earlier verses null and void, still with me.

As it so happens I know that. The Koran seems to be in two parts. Pre-Medina and Post-Medina. Post Medina is where Mohammed became a warlord and the Koran took the direction of revenge and the permission to violent Jihad in order to substantiate Mohammed’s slaughter and conquest.

Hence some of Post-Medina abrogates Pre-Medina.

I’ll bet that its an argument that Wilders presents. By having a Koran with abrogation allows you to jump between opposing concepts and have a quote to substantiate it.

Ignorance is Bliss, I am curious, what is your England, the England envisioned by you, is it a land of milk and honey? Is it a socialist land?a liberal land? a capitalist land? is it a land were everyone thinks as do you, I already know its not a land of far right lunatics and I suspect its is also not a land of Islamist Theocratic Lunatics that you crave, so what is this land that you so earnestly crave? and if ‘the people’ disagree with you are they then, in your view, simply Ignorant?

Sorry to disappoint, AoS, I am stuck in Rhodes; just trying to make the best of it here.

btw, racism is the refuse of the unthinking, and not necessarily the ignorant. Just look at where contemporary antisemitism is coming from………the liberal “elites”. Look, where Islamophobia is coming from, “the people”. How long before the dots are joined………..then, to quote, “God help us all”.

PlumStupid glad to hear you know about Abrogation, very welcome indeed. One point though,

“I’ll bet that its an argument that Wilders presents. By having a Koran with abrogation allows you to jump between opposing concepts and have a quote to substantiate it.”

This really is weak, its like saying having a airplane with only one wing is the fault of the people who refuse to fly on board said airplane when they notice it has only one wing.
Is that ‘fuzzy’ enough for you?

If this is accurate, it’s a reasonable complaint. Singing a hymn is a religious act (if taken seriously), so of course Muslims might object, whether the hymns were specifically Christian or just vaguely “spiritual” affairs. Better a non-religious assembly than an “interfaith” affair.

I can think of no Christian hymn that could be construed as anything other than full of love for one’s fellow man and God. God is love. There’s no bigotry, violence or intolerance involved. In contrast, Muslims, who may take part in congregational prayer as many as 5 times per day (6 during Ramadhan) are prescribed to include the canonical prayer/invocation al-Fatihah as an obligatory part of every unit of prayer. This can mean at least 17 times per day, 6 of which are recited aloud and also amplified by the Imam if in congregation plus an extra oral recitation for 2 units on Friday. In al-Fatihah, both Christians and Jews are explicitly condemned in the last of the 7 verses. Thankfully, apart from ostensibly Muslim only areas in the UK where the call to prayer and the amplification of the Qur’an chapters/Friday sermon, unlike in Beirut, Damascus or Cairo, Christians and Jews are not demeaned and insulted (yet). No doubt al-Fatihah is taught in schools as part of religious education as it is the first chapter of the Qur’an (literally) that a Muslim learns by heart.

The most frequent ‘Hymn’ by far was ‘morning has broken’ by the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens[...]

Noooooooooooooooooo…as much as I like Cat Stevens music pre-conversion, he didn’t write this. That honour belongs to the genius ofEleanor Farjeon.

School assemblies row – what the BBC didn’t tell you

Not an awful lot by the look of this post. As per Short Order Cook, this smacks of you scratching around to find an angle. There really is nothing to see here, so you can move right along.

I would prefer it if religion was taught only in the context of the study of comparative religion. I fail to understand what it can give students in terms of educational improvement and I totally object to the exclusion of children from schools due to their parents’ faith, or lack of it. Two schools near me exclude non-Christians, which means my son will not be able to go to the schools nearest to him but which we pay for. Both the schools, which are better resourced than other schools, have a very low intake from the community where they are situated, which has a low level of educational attainment – so low, in fact, that the government’s Sure Start programme is targetting the problem (not unrelated, I feel, is the fact that the area is a BNP stronghold). Local councillors and the residents association have appealed for the schools to make some exceptions to their supplementary application procedure, but they refuse to compromise even on this. And the council that funds them can do nothing, the voluntary aided status makes them unaccountable to the community that funds them. If you want this kind of crap to stop, then religion and education must be separated in state education – Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Sikhism.

What I would love is if Michael Rosen worked his magic on the non-religious schools, get the children inspired and get them achieving! Sadly, there is not enough Michael Rosen to go around. Michael, would you be interested?

Got to go, but thank you all, most illuminating.

Religions demand of followers above all else, certain moral behaviours at a personal and interspersonal or community level. Any state has the right to determine those religions that best serve the purpose of the collective. The elites cannot abrogate their collective responsibility by saying all religions are equal. How can any school, or state organisation at council or county level promote Mohammed as a positive role model for children? Tell me which parts of his life must I forget before I can promote him to my own children? The issue is not about a joint collective act of worship but rather why we the state colludes with its ultimate destruction?

[...]racism is the refuse of the unthinking[...]

Cognition was the least of my worries as I was chased down Stratford High St., my wife in tow, by a gang of foaming-at-the-mouth, hysterical Sylheti (Muslims) screaming racist obscenities and threatening to kill their sister/cousin/friend’s cousin/sister etc. for being with a ‘f**king white pig’. Oddly, the same prejudices were replicated when we went to purchase jewellery in West London by (non-Muslim) Indians who just happened to be ’shutting up shop for the day’ or having products that were ‘not for sale’.

It seems likely to me that the parents who complained took issue with the idea of their children being involved in any kind of assembly that was not entirely Islamically oriented, which would explain the allegations of ‘racism’ they threw at Robinson. ‘Racism’ is a word that has been greatly abused by a particular group of people seeking special status for their religious beliefs – i.e. Islamist

I think you mean ‘Muslim’…’Islamist’ is not a religion; this is PC speak gone silly!

But otherwise the point is valid; this demonstrates the divisiveness of religion.

I’m astonished to read that British schools have to hold religious or quasi-religious assemblies and not at all surprised this leads to problems.

At my kids’ school here in Toronto, we have all sorts of fetivals celebrated, and the kids learn about all of them.

About half the school is of east Asian origin, so the Lunar New Year is really big, with all the kids participating in a dragon parade through the school.

We have a yearly assembly, with the whole school packed into the gym, where one of the parents gives a power point presntation on what it Eid’s all about. Then we have cake for all back in the classrooms.

Me and a few other parents deliver Hanukkah and Rosh HaShannnah presentations.

Other parents do presentations on the Christian understanding of Christmas.

It’s all ad hoc but works well, the ground rules being that all presentations are framed in terms of “This is what we Jews / Muslims / Christian or whoever believe and this is how we celebrate.” And never in terms of “This is the Truth, and you better believe it, too.”

I’ve just watched David Attenborough’s 200th Charles Darwin anniversary docu. and I seriously think that’s something they could and should show in the school assemblies. Ten minutes every assembly until it sinks in. Then we can begin to start to make some progress in human relations. And in education.

And never in terms of “This is the Truth, and you better believe it, too.”

So, just like the Church of England, then…

The same thing has happened to the phrase ‘Islamophobia’ but on a much faster timescale, because you see ‘the people’ are not as Ignorant as you think.

Indeed, a word that’s going from something hurled as an insult to something that’s increasingly being taken as a compliment, in nothing flat.

Be honest, is there any genuine liberal – in the classical sense of the term – of a democratic bent, that knows Jack-shit about mainstream Islam, Islamic history and ideology, who wouldn’t detest it with every fibre of their being?

Venchika, I think the Church of E is unique in that it tells its own members not to believe. ;-))

Here in Toronto, the pact is more that school assemblies aren’t to be used for proselytising.

when I was at school, a kid in my class got ribbed by some Irish kids. He then moved on to pathologically hate the Iriah (he joined the NF – some of you here might know him). Templton pecker had a horrible experience and, like a school child then hates everyone who he perceives is a Muslim. He then throws in a story about “(non-Muslism) Indians”, so now he hates Indians. Lucky he wasn’t fleeced by a Jew (it happens you know) – otherwise he would hate all Jews too.
As to the crap that Nick (from South Africa) spews. He evidently knows jack-shit about anything, least of all Islam or liberalism.

Whilst you wankers might define as Islamophobia out of existence, calling Islam a “cancer” is, by any measure, Islamophobic. Saying that Islam does not have one moral tenet is Islamophobic. But, no doubt, as the good racists you are you will argue otherwise.

Ok, so put your money where your mouth is. What are you going to do to stop the “cancer of Islam” – close their Mosques? close their schools?; burn their books; rip the Hijab off thir heads? Make them eat Pork? Refuse them time for prayers? Convert them to a more “civilised” religion? Demand the end of immigration for Muslims? Repatriate them (including second and third generation)? Take their children away and “civilise” them?

Well, what’s it going to be? You’ve talked the talk, now walk the walk…………………….

Nick (from SA) has evidently been reading the antisemitic liberals of the mid 19th century in Germany and in Britain of the late 19th early 20th. He’s got their arguments off to a tee.
How can a liberal not see that Judaism is a load of superstitious nonsense that teaches Jews to lie and cheat, even their own brothers?
It’s all there. You must be very proud of keeping that tradition alive.

Brian,
There was an article on the BBC news just now. Evangelical elements of the CofE are demanding that the Church go out and convert (should please many a poster here).
Canada has always been more sensible about this type of thing. My Canadian friends are gobsmacked that the only compulsory subject in the UK is Religious Education and that kids have to suffer Christian worship at assembly. The words “dark ages” are often used.

My Canadian friends are gobsmacked that the only compulsory subject in the UK is Religious Education

First, the UK does not have an homogenized education system: that in Scotland is COMPLETELY different from that in England, Wales, or Northern Ireland (the latter 3 are more closely related, but still distinct)

And, that has not been the case since, I think 1988 (introduction of national curriculum – something I broadly oppose, but anyway): now lots of subjects are compulsory to differnet degrees and different levels.

And rightly or wrongly (wrongly I think) lots of schools bend the rules. In my 7 years at secondary school I think we never once sang a hymn. (A great cultural loss and failing I would say, and something that effectively served to bolster the facile materialistic/money-worshipping/valuelessness that was a fairly dominant factor in the suburban area the school was located in).

Before that I’d been to well rough schools in really run down areas: they did not neglect their Christian duties, thankfully. I fear all hell would have broke loose had they done so.

This is unfortunately going to become more and more commonplace.

Ignorance is Bliss, you are getting Judaism confused with Islam. So far as I know, Judaism has not yet found a way for Jews to kill other Jews and argue that God told them they could, unlike those charmers in the Muslim Brotherhood whom Sayyed al-Qutb influenced. And no, I wouldn’t countenance harming one hair on a Muslim’s head.

But I do believe that Islam’s influence in the world is far from benevolent and I worry about its malevolent intentions here.

Ignorance is bliss

What are you going to do to stop the “cancer of Islam” – close their Mosques? close their schools?; burn their books; rip the Hijab off thir heads? Make them eat Pork? Refuse them time for prayers? Convert them to a more “civilised” religion? Demand the end of immigration for Muslims? Repatriate them (including second and third generation)? Take their children away and “civilise” them?

Well, what’s it going to be? You’ve talked the talk, now walk the walk…

Treat people equally under the law, deal with them as constituents, do not condescend do them as sectarian blocks, most especially, don’t pander to un elected quasi representatives or lobby groups, such as the MCB. The colonial dealing with the local chief might have worked in India in 1880, it’s not so kosher in Blighty in the 21st century.

Disestablish the Anglican church and remove the Bishops spiritual from the Lords. The Anglican church is not representative of 21st Century Britons, it gets rid of the ‘me too’ cover religious ‘moderates’ give Koranic literalism. Also, religion is a private matter, public God bothering is not appreciated by most Brits.

Remove all religious tests or selection for all staff or pupils for any school. Secularise all education establishments – primary through to tertiary, it’s appallingly divisive; Northern Ireland should have shown us that.

Treat the wearing of a burqua as the aggressive political statement that it is, wearing one to work, school or university is no more acceptable than wearing an AWB uniform to an ANC meeting.

Stop the granting of spousal resident visas to those under the age of 35 from Pakistan and other 3rd World Islamic countries. This will kybosh Islamic serial immigration.

Ban and make a point of stigmatising cousin marriages – 50% of Pakistani origin Muslims in the UK, marry first cousins.

Institute Australian type immigration controls – based upon a points based, national interest driven skilled migration criteria.

Prosecute – and be seen to prosecute real hate crimes and incitement; stop the double standards.

Stop granting automatic work visas to overseas Muslim clerics, we know enough to know that this is far from helpful.

Stop overseas funding – specifically Saudi funding – of Islamic religious institutions or at least mandate a government health warning along the lines of cigarettes to prominently displayed on all institutions and their literature.

Work towards ensuring the feedback loop of democracy works. A good place to start would be the state, tax funded broadcaster – Ensure that the BBC adheres to it’s charter. A good start would be to ensure real diversity in recruitment, that it recruits from a more representative pool of opinion not just obsessing about getting lots of dark faces. Work towards splitting it up and tapering off public funding over 5-10 years.

I could go on, but that’s a start.

10:52 pm: As to the crap that Nick (from South Africa) spews. He evidently knows jack-shit about anything, least of all Islam or liberalism.

10:56 pm: Nick (from SA) has evidently been reading the antisemitic liberals of the mid 19th century in Germany and in Britain of the late 19th early 20th. He’s got their arguments off to a tee.

So which is it? He knows jack-shit, or he’s got their arguments off to a tee?

My Canadian friends are gobsmacked that the only compulsory subject in the UK is Religious Education

Hmmm, you could always try pointing out that this isn’t the case – nor indeed, as someone has mentioned, that there is even such a thing as a UK education system. They might be less gobsmacked after you’ve done that.

Mark:
Where was the ‘decent left’ 23 years ago when similar treatment was being meted out to Ray Honeyford ?

Are you taking the piss, or are you saying that this woman genuinely is a racist, like Honeyford?

Sea kitten – gosh, how insightful and clever. A contradiction.
You must have been so excited wheu discovered that. Perhaps you have something of substance to say………………..

Nick, what a fool you are.

Nick,
How you must miss the old South Africa; what with the lack of “dark faces”; white onlyimmigration; etc.
Saul,
Yes to both points;
except I am not sure I would say “fool” for our South African friend.
Note also, he’s no said a word about Sheitel’s (wigs); of mikvah’s for “unclean” women; it just the Moozies he hates.

Shuggy,
Thank yu for your information. Do you hate Muslims too, or were you acting in good faith?

Sea Kitten,
re-reading your sharp insights, they are not contradcitoty. Afrikans Nick knows jack-shit about Islam and liberalism as evidencedby his use of the sources I mentioned.
But I don’t mean to confuse you; you evidently can’t think beyond the Manichean.

Me thinks someone is stoking up the fires of civil war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HSKvaFC39Q

Mark – “Where was the ‘decent left’ 23 years ago when similar treatment was being meted out to Ray Honeyford ? Nowhere at all.”

Nothing worse than a Premature Anti-Fascist.

Say what??
Take a good look at Jewish history. Do you realy think that it has always been a “light unto the nations”. Do you really think that in nearly 6000 years of history it hasn’t had its own share of dark and nasty moments?
Is it not interesting that these contemporary images of Islam and Muslim share something with the early a (non-racist; in its literal sense) anti-Jewish images of Jews at the first stages of emancipation in France (see the Enlightenment philosophes), in Germany (see Kant; seethe Young Hegelians (some of whom later became full fledgd antisemites); the same views in England; check out the early Fabians, and, on the right, the Daily Mail with the story that poor Jews had hordes of gold hidden away; that they beat “their” women; that they don’t mix. And, as someone argued in the press a while ago; Jews were also feared as anarchists (i.e. bombers). For whatever crimes, the Jews were jut as “guilty” as Muslims are now. Let’s not roanticise the past and England’s early (and later?) attitude to Jews. It was as horrible as it is to Muslms now.

Look at Nck’s images; they are cousin-fuckers, they exploit “our” immigration laws; they are all evil Islamisists, etc..
It was discriminatory and racist (in the popular sense) then as it is now.

Sure, there sre some differences, but he similarities are too similar for a coincidence. They share the same structural components. I oppose antisemitism, I oppose Islamophobia for the same resons. My opposition to certain forms of Islamic politics is quite simply that, political. I do not need to denigrate an entire people, nor to treat them as somehow pathological or uncivilised or what have you.

If thse particular times tell us nothing else they tell us that a social situation that produces antisemitism produces Islamophobia, into whose trap both Jews and Muslims fall into (and both of which must be opposed). (It is, of course, no coincidence that a thrid term, the bollocks of a “white [i.e. not Jewish, not Muslim, not Black, not Asian, not not Christian] working class has also arisen at this time – it’s part of the same phenomenon].

In times of anxiety, thought and refection are the first victims.

Brian from Toronto, British schools do the kind of multi-faith assemblies and occasions too. However, the 1944 Education Act took the shape it did because it was a compromise by which the schools that had a religious foundation could be brought into the state system. What had happened all over the British Isles (Ireland included of course) is that various religious bodies had either founded schools (often ‘charity’ schools for the poor), or had ‘control’ over schools. This meant that religious institutions actually owned the land and the school buildings, or enshrined within the school’s foundation was the presence of a religious body in running that school. These two kinds of schools were brought into the state sector by dint of a historic compromise which gave us ‘Voluntary Aided’ schools (ie the ones owned by the churches but where the teachers’ salaries are paid by the state) and ‘Voluntary Controlled’ where the state owns the site, pays the salaries but where the school is controlled by a church. These schools have the right to determine the religious content of their assemblies, their RE lessons, the first religious requirement they ask their potential pupils to adhere to (they can choose to waive this), and the religions of their staff (likewise, can waive). In return the state controls the curriculum, determines what exams are sat, and it is inspected by the state apparatus of inspection.

In the non-religious sector of the state system, the 44 Act also laid down this stuff about assemblies and RE that I mentioned above. It did not need to do so, but the committee that created the Act allowed the religious lobby to make that part of their demand that their religious schools would ‘come in’ to the state sector. The other compromise of that Act was to give to dissenting sects and Catholics the right to withdraw from religious events and education. It wasn’t at the time an acknowledgment that atheists would want to withdraw their children though the law allows for that.

The reason for the confusion and ill-feeling that keeps occurring round this matter is that what the law requires (it was updated in 1998 (and I think in 1988 before that)) one thing and what happens on the ground is another. Schools by and large want all their children to come to assemblies, but are required to provide a ‘broadly Christian’ assembly. There is no reason whatsoever why anyone who is not a Christian (or the kind of Christian who objects to Christians of another faith running a Christian ceremony) or an atheist should have to attend a Christian assembly. So there is a basic contradiction between the ‘community building’ ethic and the Act.

So, schools fudge it – they have secular assemblies. The problem is that no one will admit that they do, for fear that someone will blow the whistle. Headteachers are caught between a rock and a hard place. If Ofsted come along and say that they sat through an assembly at which nothing ‘broadly christian’ happened, they can ‘fail’ that aspect of the school’s performance. If the headteacher insists on the broadly christian assembly, it is quite possible there will be a walkout by any of the groups I’ve mentioned before. The other alternative that some schools work is that they divide their assemblies in two – they do the Christian bit and then open the doors to everyone for the non-religious bit. Sounds neat but is complete hell in practice because it means dividing up classes, keeping some teachers back to supervise the non-Christian children while the Christian bit happens and so on.

Comparison with other countries is very difficult because in many other countries, the religious schools weren’t ever brought within the state sector, so the compromise was never made (eg Australia, France, the USA). The starkest consequence of all this in the UK is Northern Ireland where there are state schools and state Catholic schools, but of course a state non-Catholic school is de facto a Protestant School.

he’s no said a word about Sheitel’s (wigs); of mikvah’s for “unclean” women

Yup, I can have a pop at Judaism too if you’d like. The stuff you pointed out about it is indeed dodgy, as is mutilating the genitals of infant boys…in fact Judaism as a religion generally, is trite. But then Judaism is a completely non proselytising, non imperial – unless you call tiny Israel a manifestation of imperialism – religion with 15 million Global adherents and just isn’t informing the hate, violence, the conflict all over the World we get from Islam.

Muslims outnumber Jews some 80:1 globally. Jewish – Torah literalists – demonstrate loudly, say nasty, bigoted things and wear very silly clothes. Some even settle in contentious parts of the Western regions of the former League of Nations British Palestine Mandate captured by the IDF since 1948.

In the greater scheme of things, though, for most of us, they are as insignificant as the Dyaks of Borneo or the Montenyards of Vietnam.

Koranic literalists are rather more problematic – they form a rather large sub-set of the 1.2 billion or so global Muslim diaspora. By large I mean a sub-set running into hundreds of millions. We have large, growing minorities in many developed countries, many flexing their political muscles, pushing seemingly rather successfully, at the boundaries of libaral democracy for increasing Islamification.

Koranic literalist Islam, is a violently proseletising, imperialist, political religion, it lays claim on the whole World and informs rather more strife.

IIB -

“Whilst you wankers might define as Islamophobia out of existence, calling Islam a “cancer” is, by any measure, Islamophobic. ”

Is it really a medical condition? Or is it an opinion? Like saying “communism is a cancer” or “fascism is a cancer”?

IIB – you are clearly determined to stifle free speech out of existence. No doubt you are very glad that Geert Wilders is going to be kept out of this country, so he can’t speek freely either.

How you must miss the old South Africa; what with the lack of “dark faces”; white onlyimmigration; etc.

Hah….BINGO! …..Can I have my bottle of Old Spice and fluffy dog please?

Mike Rosen – very good post!

What would you suggest as the way forward?

Short order cook
10 February 2009, 7:38 pm

Actually, I should clarify that – I don’t agree with acts of worship in schools. I do agree with making use of parables from the various religions which can be used to make points about morality etc.

Make war on the unbelievers, take not Jews and Christians as friends? That sort of thing?

How can a liberal not see that Judaism is a load of superstitious nonsense that teaches Jews to lie and cheat, even their own brothers? IIB

What is this Judaism you refer to, in such dispararging terms, and where does it teach these things you claim. You claim not to be anti-semitic?

Ignorance is bliss – Apparently the only book you haven’t read and understood is the Koran…?

IIB objects to Nick (ex SA’s) criticism of the common Pakistani practice in the UK of marrying first cousins. I imagine this is cultural as much as religious and nomrally cultural traditions can and do change over time.

The problem with a lot of cultural traditions adopted by the local religion and by Islam in particular, is that they become cast in stone and difficult to eradicate. Anything from demanding women wear the full hiljab to female circumcision (both have their origin in local cultural traditions and are not originally religiously conceived).

There are very good medical reasons why inter marriage between first cousins is not desirable – look at the haemophilia in the Royal Families of Europe in the 18th and 19th century for example – spread by too much intermarriage among a narrow pool of relatives sharing the same gene pool. But because it happens to be Pakistani Moslems who have a very high incidence of this today, IIB does not want us to criticise it.

Why should Pakistani Moslems and all their practices and cultural traditions be above criticism? Sadly because they link them to their religion and shriek racist or religious persecution when even the most mild criticisms are levelled at them.

Templton pecker had a horrible experience and, like a school child then hates everyone who he perceives is a Muslim. He then throws in a story about “(non-Muslism) Indians”, so now he hates Indians.

Er, no he doesn’t and Templeton ‘hates’ no-one. Sure, he may consider Dennis Macshane to be a cockweasel at times and David Milliband to be a ninny…but they’re not so bad. Even you aren’t such a bad fellow I’ll bet, despite your naughty habit of putting words in people’s mouths and trawling the Internet for anti-Judaism rubric.

I’m all for school assemblies and hymns, what could be better than singing ‘We plough the fields and scatter the good seed on the land…’? Fantastic stuff and no intolerance to speak of…

I think you mean ‘Muslim’…’Islamist’ is not a religion; this is PC speak gone silly!

Not quite. There is a useful distinction available. “Muslim” is a term of self-description. It applies to everyone who is Muslim, and the vast majority of Muslims so self-described are Muslim simply by virtue of having been born Muslim. This includes “cultural Muslims”, “secular Muslims” and closet apostates, among other categories of Muslims who are not necessarily… Islamist.

“Islamist” is not a term of self-description. It is a term used by non-Muslims to identify those Muslims who bring what can be called an “Islam uber alles” attitude and approach to their dealings with non-Muslims, almost invariably because of their exposure to and inculcation of the core religious doctrines of Islam.

Islamists — and Islamist attitudes — are a problem. Muslims per se, for the most part, are not. They could even be victims.

qidniz

Islamists — and Islamist attitudes — are a problem. Muslims per se, for the most part, are not. They could even be victims.

Nicely explained.

Thank you.

Ok, so put your money where your mouth is. What are you going to do to stop the “cancer of Islam” – close their Mosques? close their schools?; burn their books; rip the Hijab off thir heads? Make them eat Pork? Refuse them time for prayers? Convert them to a more “civilised” religion? Demand the end of immigration for Muslims? Repatriate them (including second and third generation)? Take their children away and “civilise” them?

This agressive description ‘cancer of Islam’ is out of order – but I do understand what’s its trying to convey.

It comes from a continual, ‘in-your-face’ presentation of Islam where we were forced to consider and analyse it ever since 9/11 and 7/7. The continual media focus on it and the agressive Islamist commentators have given it a degree of publicity not warranted by its population in the UK.

We’d all much rather they just got on with things whereby they are left alone and we are left alone. Why not be more like the Jews – who some of their more extreme commentators say that they are being treated as in Nazi Germany.

Back to the “just a few bad apples” theory of Islam, I see. It is an irrelevance that there are “good” Muslims, the essence of Islam is domination, domination, domination, and when they attain a critical mass, they call the shots – then you have a “Muslim country”. That’s all there is to it. Look at the power they have even when they constitute less than 5% of the population. Wait until they constitute 10, 25, 50 per cent.
And is there even a peep about Geert Wilders on the BBC? Like hell there is.

And as for first cousin marriage:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7404730.stm

Around 50% of children born in Bradford are to Pakistani parents.

And who pays for the cost of their treatment? Yes, the kuffar.

re race and religion. Firstly, let’s be under no illusions about the BNP game. Hitler made clear that he believed Islam as a martial religion would be well suited to the teutonic spirit and the central Islamic leadership was broadly allied with the Nazis during world war 2. The denigration of Muslims is a tactic designed to cause the maximum amount of conflict at the minimal amount of cost to the BNP. It is laying down smoke to allow the BNP to advance.

One doesn’t need a first in politics at Cambridge to work that one out.

Race is not religion. Absolutely. And even if it is deemed to be synonymous as our useless courts have ruled in relation to Jews and Sikhs, it does not make it so.

The added problem here of course is that Islam is a religion that recognises no division whatsoever between the private and the public and as such it is much more like a political movement – a totalitarian political movement.

British culture is completely uninoculated against Islam. It treats religion as a private and largely embarrassing matter that is not suitable for discussion in public fora. It assumes that religions are either peaceable or if not peaceable, unimportant. It finds itself unable to distinguish between race, nationality, ethnicity and religion, because these distinctions have not been greatly important in England (the main political unit) over the last 100 years. Our politics have been largely class based.

I am afraid we are just going to have to travel the learning curve until we realise what a very real danger to our society totalitarian Islam represents and that we have to take active and energetic steps to counter the threat.

so self-described are Muslim simply by virtue of having been born Muslim.

I’m going to have to go all Dawkins on your ass, here, qidniz. How the fuck can a new-born child be “Muslim”? Can a new-born child consciously observe the five pillars? Are beliefs somehow passed from mother to child via the umblicial cord?

Ignorance is bliss

Yes I grew into my pseudonym as well.

fnarr.

“I’m going to have to go all Dawkins on your ass, here, qidniz. How the fuck can a new-born child be “Muslim”? Can a new-born child consciously observe the five pillars? Are beliefs somehow passed from mother to child via the umblicial cord?”

People are what their parents say they are until they’re old enough to decide. If liberals want more secular, atheist children they should stop having so many abortions.

Multi faith assemblies are a no boner. Those BBC Mark Tully multi-faith, spiritual uplifts , like wonderbras, programmes are puke inducing. Tully has a multi faith willy apparently!
Why not have assemblies asking the young muslim boys and girls if Christians and the other faiths should have the same religious freedoms in Mecca and Medina they have in East London and elsewhere. Get Yusof Islam in on this he is into education, education, education.

I’m going to have to go all Dawkins on your ass, here, qidniz. How the fuck can a new-born child be “Muslim”? Can a new-born child consciously observe the five pillars? Are beliefs somehow passed from mother to child via the umblicial cord?

I think you know what I meant by the idiom, but if you insist, I’ll try to be sufficiently pedantic and exact. By “born Muslim”, I meant: born into a household which can be similarly described as, or to parents who similarly would describe themselves as, Muslims; and subsequently are raised in a family and kinship environment consisting of Muslims. Just about everyone is “born into (some religion or other)” in that sense, and it’s probably a good thing that only a minority take that default legacy, acquired before the capacity for rational thought, seriously.

Let’s be clear here. If you believe in freedom of religion then you should support the right of Muslims not to go to some ‘all in’ assembly. End of story.

If you are an athiest like me, then you also believe this crap shouldn’t be in schools at all.

But nobody – nobody – should be forced to send their kids to a religious ceremony they don’t want to be part of.

I think Dan and Micheal R have summed up the situation wonderfully

“But this wasn’t to be a ‘Christian’ assembly. Rather, the Sheffield Telegraph reports that Robinson wanted ‘assemblies for all the pupils, which would encompass all faiths‘.”

No she wanted them to sing Christian hymns which would be idolatrous to Muslims

“. ‘Racism’ is a word that has been greatly abused by a particular group of people seeking special status for their religious beliefs – i.e. Islamists – and crying wolf in this way trivialises the very real problem of racism. ”

LOL. Something no one could accuse a particular community of.

a
But nobody – nobody – should be forced to send their kids to a religious ceremony they don’t want to be part of.

Yes but the whole ethos of our society and those aspects pertaining to multiculturalism and individual rights are configured to effect a sort of quasi-religious ambience, admit it. You cannot state that Islam is bad with out being insulted. It is a direct lie that muslims indulge in, and explains why they are so hated by some, concerning the child, ‘being forced to sing a hym by a teacher.”

Michael Rosen,

Thanks for your informative reply – I always find it interesting to learn how oddities such as the requirement for Christian assemblies in secular schools come about.

We also have state-funded religious schools, though it’s handled a bit differently in each province. Here in Ontario (Canada’s largest province) only Catholic schools are state funded, which creates obvious inequities. But the province can’t not fund Catholic schools, because such funding is constitutionally required.

Naturally the Catholic schools are Catholic, but they follow the common curriculum and are open to non-Catholic students

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自称自己是中国人的深发展董事谢国忠应该回应!

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　　 深发展银行盗窃本人银行存款,被我发现后还拒绝承认,竟然认为盗窃合理合法!被我起诉后深发展败诉!败诉后对抗法院判决并拒绝赔法院判决赔偿款!世界上唯一由个人提出申请，法院对银行开出的人民币221元的强制执行书,深圳发展银行被一个小市民起诉并败诉,赔偿221元竟然也会赖帐!深圳发展银行竟然也会做假帐和错帐!这种新鲜事情就发生在深圳发展银行! 法兰克纽曼2千多万的年薪把深发展搞成什么样?那就是连水电费的中文交易代码都当做绝对机密不敢象客户公布!这在其他银行交易代码中文解释都在银行存折上或者大堂公示的起码内容!这说明什么?深圳发展银行的管理有严重的系统漏洞!就是在法庭上深圳发展银行恬不知耻的在法官面前对我说：“还要随意扣我的钱”，并且拿出了让人莫名其妙的证据!—银行罚息表!这是绝对的伪证! 怎么个莫名其妙怎么个伪证请往下看:
　　 深圳发展银行败诉后竟然还对我打击报复!在人民银行的怔信系统里故意诬陷我有逾期还款!个人信用竟然也可以被银行随意污辱和更改!我找深发展讲理,深发展竟然说还要再给我记录三次不良还款记录!害得我找到羊城晚报记者,在记者调查下深发展才不得不给我更改了我个人信用记录!无耻的深发展银行!
具体详细内容请在http://www.66law.cn/channel/forum_thread_id100270_p1.aspx
具体详细内容请在GOOGLE搜’起诉深圳发展银行’就知道 有26万条信息或者在搜狐搜’210902197708080513′也可以知道详细内容!! 同情的请帮我转发!在此我感谢啦!如果能告诉身边的亲朋好友更是感谢!如果见怪不怪的话,下一个被深发展银行侵犯的可能就是你自己!不在沉默中爆发,就在沉默中死亡
自称自己是中国人的深发展董事谢国忠应该回应!