Will You Defend Jews?
Many of are increasingly frightened by the growing respectability of jihadist terrorists and anti-semites.
Relationships are being forged between academics, policy makers, and Islamist supporters of genocide. The rationale underpinning these contacts is that if we treat these extremists as moderates, and meet their demands, then they will become allies in the fight against Al Qaeda. In practice, that has meant ignoring and ‘contextualising’ the most atrocious anti-semitism, that is the stock in trade of Islamism.
Strange to tell, but in some quarters, it is more acceptable to be an anti-semite, than to point out anti-semitism in others.
On 23-29 March 2009, the School of Oriental and African Studies is holding a conference on Political Islam. The conference, which costs £1,890, has been ‘convened’ by Dr Khaled Hroub and Dr Sarah Stewart. Khaled Hroub is an academic at Cambridge who refuses to call suicide bombers ‘terrorists’.
There is value in the academic study of Islamism. This conference should certainly take place. However it should not take place without a non-disruptive protest. This is why.
There are two speakers at this conference whose participation should be marked by some action that ensures that attendees are fully aware of the obnoxious nature of their politics.
The first is Dr Ibrahim Moussaoui, a Hezbollah spokesman who was Head of the foreign department at Al-Manar TV, the official media outlet of Hizbullah in Lebanon.
The second is Dr Kamal Helbawy, the senior Muslim Brotherhood officer in the United Kingdom, who now operates from his own Muslim Brotherhood front organisation, which he calls the “Centre for the Study of Terrorism”.
Dr Ibrahim Moussaoui
First of all, Moussaoui must be banned from entering the United Kingdom. It is absurd that a spokesman for a genocidal terrorist organisation should be allowed to enter the United Kingdom freely, while an unpleasant right wing European politician is banned.
Al Manar broadcast the anti-semitic lie that Jews were pre-warned of the 9/11 attacks and escaped death.
You thought that Fitna was bad?
Al Manar’s stock in trade is anti-semitic propaganda. Here is “Diaspora”, a dramatisation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that was first broadcast on Al Manar TV.
Watch this clip.
Don’t watch this clip, if you object to seeing Jews bleeding children, to incorporate their blood into Passover matzohs.
Moussoui will, no doubt, have a useful contribution to make to this conference. He can do it by video link.
Write to your MP and to Jacqui Smith and ask the Home Secretary to ban Moussaoui from entering the United Kingdom
Dr Kamal Helbawy
Here is Helbawy (or Helbawi, or Al-Hilbawi) debating the liberal Dr. Nabil Yassin, on the ethics of targeting civilians and children, on the BBC Arabic TV
Dr. Kamal Al-Hilbawi: “I condemn the targeting of any civilian, but incidentally, I believe that every Israeli civilian is a future soldier.”
Interviewer: “He is what?”
Dr. Kamal Al-Hilbawi: “A future soldier.”
Interviewer: “Even if he is two years old?”
Dr. Kamal Al-Hilbawi: “Even if he is a child.
Got that? Helbawy opposes the targeting of civilians. But Israeli kids? Future soldiers!
It is valuable to hear what supporters of terrorism believe. This conference is a great opportunity to put these men on the spot. But they should not do so unopposed, or with honour.
So, what can be done?
I am just one man. This is just a blog. But I believe that many of us are angered by genocidal antisemitism, and horrified at how little is done to stand up against it.
Is there anybody out there who would be prepared to stand outside the conference, in silent protest at these revolting and extreme men? Would any of you pass out leaflets to attendees, so that they are at least informed what these men believe, and what their organisations have done?
Will you pass this message to your friends and colleagues? Will you lobby anti-racist organisations to take action?
Will you defend Jews?
Comments
| 13 February 2009, 3:03 pm |
To be honest Felix, MPs probably only should be contacted on things like this by their own constituents, but thank you so much for your sentiments.
| 13 February 2009, 3:06 pm |
P.S. I am a British citizen, but have never enrolled as a voter.
| 13 February 2009, 3:08 pm |
Oh are you? I didn’t realise that.
| 13 February 2009, 3:11 pm |
| 13 February 2009, 3:16 pm |
Oh what a simply delicious opportunity to embarrass our odious Home Secretary not to say the appalling Chris Huhne ,the vile giggling Vaz Milliband et al . Magnificent work David I saw your comments on Liberal Conspiracy. Surgical logic
| 13 February 2009, 3:25 pm |
This isn’t about embarrassing anybody.
It is about drawing attention to the increasing mainstreaming of anti-semitism, and anti-semitic Islamist organisations, and hoping that there might be some solidarity out there.
| 13 February 2009, 3:28 pm |
I have written my MP Laurence Robertson to ask him to add his voice to banning Moussaoui. Not long before that, I wrote him to express my outrage at Jihadis and SPW crowds routing the police from London streets. He informed me that yobbos in his home town of Tewkesbury had shown similar disrepect for the the forces of law and order there also. Do we need to borrow the good old fashioned gendarmerie?
| 13 February 2009, 3:45 pm |
Thanks for alerting me to this, I will certainly mention it to everyone I know. And yes – I would would be prepared to stand outside and protest!
| 13 February 2009, 3:47 pm |
Well ,you certainy have my moral support. Canada admits many odious characters of this type, but unfortunately there are no watchdogs to warn us when they plan on visiting. Some really obnoxious numbers have flown in, but by the time Ive gotten wind of it they’re long gone.
I was once on the mailing list of Judeoscope, a local montreal outfit that keep loose tabs on some of these characters, but the organisation has ceased to exist.
| 13 February 2009, 3:48 pm |
Frankly its about time Jews started making a noise about this kind of thing. Israeli friends can’t believe how soft Jews in this country are. We once had the 43 group now we have to write letters in the hope something might be done.
| 13 February 2009, 3:54 pm |
What happened to that Jewish counter-picket that used to appear outside Marks and Spencers in Oxford Street to oppose the boycotters a few years ago? I visited it a few times when in London and was impressed. Did it just fade away?
| 13 February 2009, 3:58 pm |
I’ll gladly protest outside; I study at SOAS and I don’t pay my fees to give anti-semites an unchallenged platform.
| 13 February 2009, 4:03 pm |
A request , can you guys at HP stop writing these excellent posts, I really need to sleep. 10 out of 10 today HP, it really is quite a pleasure to read this stuff.
| 13 February 2009, 4:12 pm |
Count me in. Its about time we started standing up to these disgusting antisemites and their left/liberal fellow travellers.
| 13 February 2009, 4:17 pm |
The School of Oriental & African Studies is highly anti semitic
its ethos deriving from the UCU which is controlled by the SWP.
Of course we must write to MPs & the College Principal (who is he/she ?)
Britain is a very soft touch for Islamonazis because they can always play the race card in our gutless guilt ridden society
Martin
| 13 February 2009, 4:19 pm |
Fred said:”We once had the 43 group now we have to write letters in the hope something might be done.”
Its a great shame we don’t have people around like that today who are willing to stick their necks out and deal with the fash (whether nationalist or islamofash) physically which to be frank is ultimately the only way they ever will be dealt with.
| 13 February 2009, 4:23 pm |
Oh, I’m sorry. I forgot self-defense is against the law in the UK.
| 13 February 2009, 4:24 pm |
The truth is, we need another 43 Group.
But it shouldn’t be one that is a Jewish organisation.
This isn’t a merely Jewish issue, albeit that Jews are one of its primary targets.
A friend of mine told me, last week, of how a Muslim father broke down in tears because his son had joined an Islamist organisation.
And, as we know, the victims of the terrorist strikes have and will not be differentiated by religion or ethnicity.
| 13 February 2009, 4:39 pm |
“Felix
13 February 2009, 3:06 pm
P.S. I am a British citizen, but have never enrolled as a voter.
”
Do so ASAP unless you never ever want to borrow money.
It is ironic that this post insults Geert Wilders when he supports Israel and defending Jews.
| 13 February 2009, 4:41 pm |
put me down for the silent protest.
| 13 February 2009, 4:41 pm |
Its a great shame we don’t have people around like that today who are willing to stick their necks out and deal with the fash (whether nationalist or islamofash) physically which to be frank is ultimately the only way they ever will be dealt with.
| 13 February 2009, 4:45 pm |
I’m a youth and quite unversed in the skill of letter writing. i was wondering if addressing someone as Rt Hon is satisfactory or if I have to put in any other form of title to boot?
| 13 February 2009, 4:46 pm |
The fact is the main threat of antisemitism comes from an alliance of the far left and Islamists.
Which means the usual left anti-fascists will either sit on there hands or even be part of the problem.
| 13 February 2009, 4:48 pm |
What is the date and time you need people for?
| 13 February 2009, 4:50 pm |
“Re Mumbai reports I found nearly all major news sites even had video footage of Indian commandos storming the jewish centre to retake it from the militants and carried the jewish centre aspect as a headline stand-alone story.”
er No Chris,
you’re missing my point, there was plenty of superficial coverage, but no in depth questioning on the issue? why hunt out the few dozens Jews in a city of 13 million and kill them? what was the real purpose? how did it happen? standard jounalistic questions, on any other subject
suppose, some group had found members of London’s smallest ethnic minority (say, people from New Guinea, etc) in a population of 6 Million people, and killed them, then surely if that happened in London, they’d ask WHY and maybe think a bit deeper on the subject?
my point is, that type of questioning is not there, when the victims of attacks are Jews
| 13 February 2009, 4:50 pm |
Yes
| 13 February 2009, 4:50 pm |
Gene said:”
Not necessarily.”
Up to a point I agree with you that there are many paths in life and some people do change. However having grown up alongside various flavours of fash supporters in London there will always be a hard care of fash either nationalist fash or islamofash who are impervious to reason or conscience and they are the ones who do need to be dealt with robustly.
| 13 February 2009, 5:01 pm |
Relationships are being forged between academics, policy makers, and Islamist supporters of genocide. The rationale underpinning these contacts is that if we treat these extremists as moderates, and meet their demands, then they will become allies in the fight against Al Qaeda.
Really? Is that their rationale? This seems like a nice, comforting, reach. It accords these people sort of noble motives (oppose Al Qaeda) even if they are using horrible means.
I think a much easier explanation is that they just hate Jews. Simple, doesn’t require filling in some logical explanations. They just hate Jews, hate Israel and that’s that.
| 13 February 2009, 5:05 pm |
Sent a letter to my MP. Wish I could be there to protest
| 13 February 2009, 5:08 pm |
I have contacted both Ms Smith and my local MP. I can only hope they share a fraction of my alarm at the idea of this maniac being allowed into the UK.
| 13 February 2009, 5:13 pm |
I’d like to be there, the conference is interesting on one level because of the subject matter; on another, because of the notoriety of some of the attendees. If I can’t attend, I’ll ask my wife to enquire at her university as to whether some sort of vist might be germane. I also have a postgraduate friend at SOAS who I’ll email and familiarise.
Perhaps the best way to inform others of this, would be to contact the major faculty members in NMES around the country. Exeter, Durham, Manchester, Edinburgh (CASAW) and Birmingham. Not to mention Oxford ISC, the Ibn al-Arabi centre and MECO. Colin Shindler and his colleagues at SOAS would also no doubt help raise awareness of the issues. Gsirrah, the sometime communicant here, appears to be well-placed…
I think the most disappointing aspect of this ‘jambouree’ is that so few British academics are involved: like much of NMES these days, funding from ‘dubious’ sources, post-colonial proclivities and ’suspect’ academics from the NME abound. Hroub, Helbawy and Moussaoui are not the only questionable participants: Abdullah Anas (pseudonym), an Algerian involved in the Afghan jihad and married to Abdullah Azzam’s daughter, is also a highly suspect attendee. His accounts of the Afghan jihad are still widely circulated on the net despite his ‘disavowal’ of open warfare. He’s yet another dodgy fellow to be given asylum in London. You can find him as a da’ee (propagandist) at the Central London Mosque I believe.
Well done for publicising this Mr T: all the participants will undoubtedly still attend, but q/a sessions can still be co-opted to examine their views at the time.
| 13 February 2009, 5:19 pm |
The address I used was wrong.
This is the reply I got.
This address is for the use of my constituents who wish to contact me. I cannot deal with cases from outside of the Redditch Constituency – they are rightly the responsibility of local MPs.
In addition, enquiries from outside my constituency relating to my ministerial work should be sent to the public enquiry desks of the Home Office. For general enquiries the address is
public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk
For enquiries about immigration cases the address is
indpublicenquiries@ind.homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk
Perhaps the last address is more germane.
| 13 February 2009, 5:33 pm |
yep
| 13 February 2009, 5:46 pm |
I’ll write to my MP, but will be abroad and miss any demonstration.
Free speech is cool, being an anti-semite spewing bigoted nonsense is not.
| 13 February 2009, 6:02 pm |
The best forum in which to expose the conference on Political Islam and its speakers is coming up on Monday, 16th February – see ‘notes for editors’ below the link. John Mann MP is the person to contact, if anyone has a connection with him.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/newsroom/latest-news/?view=PressR&id=3764633
The newly-formed Inter-Parliamentary Coalition for Combating Anti-Semitism will hold its inaugural conference in London at the Houses of Parliament and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in February 2009. The ICAA is an umbrella framework that assembles parliamentarians from around the world who take an active interest and involvement in confronting anti-Semitism.
| 13 February 2009, 6:17 pm |
Those of you writing to your MP, please note that if you are not registered to vote they know because their correspondence/casework programme incorporates a copy of the electoral register, which all representatives receive free of charge. MPs and their staff (who will read the email and write the reply in most cases) are naturally not inclined to put themselves out for non-voters.
Put me down for the protest.
| 13 February 2009, 6:21 pm |
Martin, if you google SOAS you’ll be able to find out all the top people.
As to ministers giving a toss … all they care about is expenses for their second homes.
Did someone say that this is a ‘Labour’ government?
| 13 February 2009, 6:27 pm |
I’ll be at the protest.
| 13 February 2009, 6:27 pm |
Defending free speech is infinitely more important than “defending Jews”, as you mendaciously twist the issue.
Nobody should be banned from entering the UK simply because of their opinions, and that is just as true for Geert Wilders as it is for Sheikh Qaradawi or the respected scholars invited to SOAS. This authoritarian Government, growing more repressive every day, and its little troupe of camp-whores begging “harder, faster”, are a vastly greater threat to democracy and freedom than anything that has or will ever occur at the University of London.
It’s particularly ironic that you seek to ban Mousawi as he was awarded his PhD in Political Islam at Birmingham University and is a noted figure in Middle Eastern studies in the UK. His taking part in this academic conference is very welcome and he certainly has a much more legitimate reason to attend than a tiny rump of warmongering apologists for Israel such as yourself. I expect that will be reflected in the universal jeering and contempt your pathetic little protest will meet on the day.
One last point, David T: your dishonesty is displayed for all to see in your selective quotation of Dr Al-Hilbawi. The full text of the interview on MEMRI shows that this scholar is an opponent of terrorism and a moderating influence in the debate going on within Islam.
Dr. Kamal Al-Hilbawi: “Allow me. I absolutely do not condone the killing of civilians. But those responsible for the killing of these civilians are sometimes their own relatives and their own country.
[...]
“In my view, Sheikh Al-Qaradhawi is one of the people responsible for the development of religious violence, I’m sad to say.”
Why would you choose to ignore evidence that one of the leading scholars at this conference is not only an opponent of terrorism but also a critic of another scary monster cleric you never miss a chance to demonize? Isn’t that curious?
I can only surmise that you are trying to hide that there is a genuine debate going on amongst Islamic scholars, that the great majority are hostile to terrorism and working hard for peaceful coexistence with the West. You wish to prevent such a debate taking place; you wish to paint all Muslims as extremists and terrorists regardless of their real views; you wish to promote a racist narrative whereby Britain and its Jewish population are under siege by brown-skinned barbarians, and this conference — by exposing that narrative as a lie — must be stopped if Israel’s interests in the UK are to be furthered.
| 13 February 2009, 6:30 pm |
I have written to my MP.I read this blog on a regular basis and enjoy its generally unbiased comment.
As a gentile I am appalled by the antisemitic undercurrent that seems to permeate all levels of the UK.
I wish our glorious leaders make a stand and stop appeasing the Islamists before it’s too late.Furthermore,muslims in our country need to root out the radicalism that is in their midst for they too will be subjugated by the extremists.
| 13 February 2009, 6:41 pm |
I would be glad to write to my MP.
| 13 February 2009, 6:45 pm |
The award for most mendacious use of the elipsis goes to:
VOICE OF REASON!
Mazeltov.
| 13 February 2009, 6:49 pm |
The award for most mendacious use of the elipsis goes to …
The ellipses are in the MEMRI report. I expect MEMRI, as a Zionist propaganda operation, has excised other statements by Al-Hilbawi that undermine the Islamophobic claptrap that sees all Muslims supporting terrorism in lockstep.
| 13 February 2009, 6:52 pm |
Count me in. I am ashamed to have been a student at SOAS. (Japanese Dept, BA Japanese and Korean, not a hotbed of jihadist activity, at least not at in the early 90s!) But even then, the students’ union was, oh, horrible, and the politics grotesque and destructive. I’ll write a letter to Paul Webley this evening, probably snail mail is most effective…? And a letter for the Alumni rag, for what it’s worth. But a vigil? Definitely.
| 13 February 2009, 6:59 pm |
Voice of Reason: Your point about banning people over their speech is well taken. This is a very worrisome trend in England. Neither Wilders nor any of these Islamist preachers should be banned (unless they work for terrorist groups; quite another thing). Wilders film should be shown and discussed; and the vierws of Islamists should also be openly and widely discussed, including opposition to those views, and including opposition to the religion itself, indeed, to any religion or any belief or philosophy whatsoever. The notion that “community cohesion” (whatever that means) is more important than the free exchange of ideas is an extremely dangerous path.
If someone thinks, say, Buddhism poses a danger to Western Civ, he should be free to let others know about this view. Regarding Wilders, it doesn’t matter if he wants to ban the Koran; that has nothing to do with freely permitting people to view his film or anything else.
The US also has banned people (Tariq Ramadan) from entry here. I don’t think that was very wise, either, although I believe his views are very wrong, bad even (but that’s just my view of things).
I guess the end result is that people will have to be on an approved list, sort of like getting into the Oscars ceremony, before they can move across borders.
But I would like to point out that in a way you prove Wilders assertion in that you said, “there is a genuine debate going on amongst Islamic scholars, that the great majority are hostile to terrorism and working hard for peaceful coexistence with the West.” There is nothing similar in other religions, even remotely. Why does it take so much effort to get some people to be peaceful? And, to make Wilders point, perhaps they are not peaceful? Just using your words.
ToE (I hope I don’t get my comments banned!)
| 13 February 2009, 7:32 pm |
If this hideous event was a week later I could join you as I will be visiting that London on April 2nd.
Sorry, most pointless comment ever.. but good luck.
| 13 February 2009, 7:43 pm |
Would it not also help, if you had a few volunteers to enrol in this event and record the proceedings?
| 13 February 2009, 7:46 pm |
I would be prepared to stand outside SOAS and protest and I have just written to Jacqui Smith and my MP
VoR, these two charmers are supporters of terrorism and murder. Don’t you get it? If their ilk had any sort of power here do you think that you would be able to have the luxury of free speech?
And IF (and it’s a big “if”) MEMRI has done any such thing then it is no different from the media here which reports selectively about matters concerning Israel/Palestine. You are not complaining about them. Why?
And we know that Islamists fight each other when they can’t fight Jews. It’s little surprise that they measure their fatwah’s against each other, and they are equally capable of being economical with the truth, so that dog certainly won’t bark, will it?
David T can you keep us informed of the numbers who have agreed to picket?
| 13 February 2009, 7:51 pm |
The US also has banned people (Tariq Ramadan) from entry here. I don’t think that was very wise, either, although I believe his views are very wrong, bad even (but that’s just my view of things).
Tariq Ramadan was banned because he gave money to terrorist front organizations. That’s not a free speech issue.
| 13 February 2009, 8:47 pm |
The BBC, pre-war, banned Churchill from the airwaves in case he offended Hilter, Winston Churchill also compared the Koran to Mein Kampf (justifiably) Here was : ‘….the new Koran of faith and war: turgid, verbose, shapeless, but pregnant with its message.’
but I prefer a later passage from the same book (Churchill’s ‘The Second World War’ Vol. 1 The Gathering Storm, page 312)
‘But now at last was the end of British and French submission. Here was decision at last, taken at the worst possible moment and on the least satisfactory ground, which must surely lead to the slaughter of tens of millions of people. Here was the righteous cause deliberately and with a refinement of inverted artistry committed to mortal battle after its assets and advantages had been so improvidently squandered. Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves.’
| 13 February 2009, 9:06 pm |
David, have you circulated this to the JSocs and Israel Societies of the London Universities?
Am happy to send it to mine.
| 13 February 2009, 9:12 pm |
Maw, I wrote “Dear Home Secretary.”
Best of luck. Go for it!!
| 13 February 2009, 9:30 pm |
Go ahead and picket but please don’t get the event cancelled altogether as I’d like to go along and get some juicy quotes for the dissertation about domestic Jihadists I’ve got to write!
| 13 February 2009, 9:53 pm |
David, I’ll see you there. Would you consider posting again in the coming weeks on this, so we can get some momentum?
| 13 February 2009, 9:58 pm |
David – an important post; it is vital to publicise these things.
I would love to help but I doubt I could get down to London on those dates. I also doubt that I could trust myself to be silent…so maybe it’s for the best.
| 13 February 2009, 10:16 pm |
I’ll defend Jews, and I’ll raise a crew of British Indians, especially Sikhs, to defend you too, if any of these scum start on your community.
| 13 February 2009, 10:20 pm |
I’m definately up for it. It’s at my college – they’ve been encouraging this bullshit for long enough.
| 13 February 2009, 10:24 pm |
I am ashamed to have eaten at the SOAS cafeteria when I was a student, and later a lecturer, just round the corner.
| 13 February 2009, 10:30 pm |
Maybe some of you can find time to defend Jews who were beaten up by Zionist thugs for opposing the recent savagery of Israel against the people of Gaza.
| 13 February 2009, 10:37 pm |
Well, in that case, I think we will do something.
We will have a think and reconvene.
The bottom line is this.
If you are a representative of a TV channel that routinely broadcasts the most heinous of anti-semitic material, and if you speak for a terrorist organisation which proposes a genocide of Jews, then it is apt that the Government of this country prohibits you from entering these shores.
It is entirely possibly, in these days of free Skype, to set up a link to a speaker in another country in a matter of minutes. It would be wrong for the Government to prohibit such a man from addressing an academic conference in this way.
However, if Moussaoui enters Britain, then it will clearly demonstrate that we live in a country in which genocidal anti-semitism is regarded as a legitimate part of political discourse.
| 13 February 2009, 10:46 pm |
the recent savagery of Israel against the people of Gaza.
Sure, Jews being murdered by shells from Gaza are so boring, so last year. Move along, nothing to see here.
| 13 February 2009, 10:48 pm |
However, if Moussaoui enters Britain, then it will clearly demonstrate that we live in a country in which genocidal anti-semitism is regarded as a legitimate part of political discourse
He is hardly the first genocidal antisemite who entered the country and was hugged by a prominent politician. The point has been proved already.
| 13 February 2009, 10:50 pm |
it get even wose the un.
| 13 February 2009, 11:52 pm |
So you support the beating up of Jews who oppose Israeli war crimes,Nearly Coherent? I am so not surprised.
| 14 February 2009, 12:26 am |
Nearly Oxfordian, maybe we can have lunch at Senate House or the Bloomsbury next time I visit UCL.
| 14 February 2009, 12:33 am |
Yes. Just tell me where and when and provide the leaflets.
Of course if us Jews, like Lord Ahmed, threaten public disorder then perhaps that will work as well as it did in keeping Geert Wilders out.
| 14 February 2009, 12:48 am |
Yes, I will defend Jews, not just because it is right to do so as a principle of defending any people that are being persecuted but also because history has shown us that the Jews are the canaries in the coal mine. What happens to them today will happen to the rest of us tommorrow. Let us be clear that this struggle is not only over the fate of the remaining Jews of Europe but the fate of all Europe of whether it remain free or submit to the Tyrannery of Islamic Extremism.
| 14 February 2009, 1:32 am |
I expect that bullshit from SOAS, but UCL isn’t exactly a bedrock of freedom either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London_Union#Pro-Palestine
Ditto LSE, when they didn’t allow Douglas Murray to debate on Islam recently. They’re all waving the Jihadist flag now – to stop ‘zionist-colonialism’.
The hypocracy is that the threat of violence will get you anything you want, but threatening a differing opinion (like Geert Wilders does) will get you fucking deported. What’s liberal about that!?
| 14 February 2009, 1:50 am |
I think you are being unfair David, and even if what you fear comes to pass, this will hardly be a case of the party considering genocidal anti-semitic discourse as an expression of legitimate poltical views. Nor can you truly believe this. If either of us did, I strongly doubt that we would be members of a party which in fact has done so much for social progress in this country.
I think you should picket – and would be well-justified in doing so. But it is possible to overstate the importance of individual occurrences of this sort. You surely are not really – in a psychological as opposed to a rhetorical sense – afraid? We live in a vibrant and free society with a progressive government. Our soldiers are busy liberating people many thousands of miles away in order that they may live lives more similar to those that we lead. The number of democracies in the world has mushroomed since the end of the Cold War. Our culture is spreading around the globe. We are all on the winning side.
I almost entirely agree with your perspective on these sorts of issues(with a mild curiosity about your fetishisation of absolute freedom of speech), but it is possible to overstate the importance of events like this as having wider import than they do. Does this not, perhaps, detract from the essential sense and moderation of what you say?
| 14 February 2009, 1:50 am |
Sadly I fear it is precisely because of the opposition to freedom of speech by a vocal group of Moslems that Geert Wilders was banned. In the comment I read Jacqui Smith said the ban was in the interests of “community security” ie stopping Moslems from rioting. It is a sad day when we are held to ransom in this way by lunatic minorities in the UK. But Smith frankly seems more incompetent by the day – O am not sure who should go first, her or the Speaker, ideally both together.
To the Tumbrils……….
| 14 February 2009, 1:55 am |
I mean, you look at some of the guff people come out with on here (not reflective of the broad editorial stance, of course) about Islamic tyranny and how Wilders is a freedom fighter. You see this, and you think it is toxic to the essentially reasonable and moderate and progressive people you are trying to place your views in the centre of. Does the tone of this piece encourage that sort of thing, just a tad?
| 14 February 2009, 4:05 am |
“Voice of Reason”, given a chance, would argue that each of the 9/11 hijackers were actually moderates against terrorism right up to the moment when they slaughtered innocents. Then they had a bad day. Could happen to anyone.
| 14 February 2009, 4:09 am |
Voice of Insanity,
Are you really so stupid that you cannot understand that someone who says they condemn attacks on civilians but excludes from this category possible future soldiers even if they are two years old, do not in fact oppose attacks on civilians?
There is a debate/dispute going on amongst Islamic scholars – in the case of Quaradawi vs Dr. Kamal Al-Hilbawi it’s a debate between someone whose Islamism is suffused with Occidentilism – generalised hostility to the west, and someone whose hatred is more specifically focussed on the Jews.
As for the free speech thing – I think Charles Johnson’s argument is the best – Geert Wilders is hardly cause celebre material, but that should not blind us to the fact that these Bans are counter-productive.
At the same time – however glib and simplistic Geert Wilders is there really should remain a difference between speech that is repellent and divisive and that which is a call to violence. Wilders has not (yet?) called for violence, and even his calls to ban the Koran and Islam seem to be – when read in context – to contain a maverick’s call for consistency WRT to the Dutch Penal Code on Hate Speech. Wilder’s has left himself enough wiggle room have his cake and eat it – where both free speech advocates could read him as being sarcastic and calling for a ban simply to highlight the hypocrisy and unworkability of the hate speech law as it stands whilst at the same time he has equivocated enough that his bridge to those further on the Authoritarian right remains open. Which may be clever politics but is completely unprincipled.
| 14 February 2009, 5:06 am |
yeah, david, email ujs and hillel house. That’s the best way.
| 14 February 2009, 7:18 am |
I would but I’m in Switzerland. It is just fucking unbelievable what is happening in the UK. It’s only a matter of time before antisemitism becomes deadly…I fear something really horrible will have to happen before the British people realize just how dangerous their current flirtation with the Islamists has become.
| 14 February 2009, 8:22 am |
“I fear something really horrible will have to happen before the British people realize just how dangerous their current flirtation with the Islamists has become.”
Of course it already has, but you underestimate our capacity to “forget”.
Ben above is partially right – it is the best of times and the worst of times. Remember, the Nazis and Bolsheviks were tiny minorities within their countries and would have stayed that way had historical forces – WW1, largely, and the Wall Street Crash – not paved their way.
Islamists in the UK are constrained by two forces: history, which is not yet really going their way, and culture – mass conversions to Islam even in the wildest imaginings seems unlikely, the requirement in God being a necessity.
Two further factors however could make things more uncomfortable for both the Jews and the rest of us – the cultural anti-semitism of the pick n’ mix Left (not all single-issue Leftists, detached as they have become from socialism, are anti-semites, but like the “institutional racism” of the Met Police this faction of the Left has increasingly embraced a culture whereby Jewish/ Zionist guilt becomes the a priori assumption. Decoupled from any true principals, they only have oppositionalism). This creates cover for the more targeted anti-semitism of Islamists.
The second is the frankly racist refusal of many of those in power to treat those Britons with a Muslim background as equals – instead engaging only with the extremist groups who wish to turn them (and us) back to the stone ages. Our toleration of the continued abuse of Muslim girls, toleration of the routine abuse of homosexuals, is true racism. Of course that section of the Left that has disengaged from socialism (PP anyone?) will squeal we must “respect” cultural differences. Well fuck that, frankly – as a socialist I see all men and women as equal, but not all beliefs and cultures, otherwise I wouldn’t be a socialist, would I. If we don’t fight back now, the only political voice that Muslims will have – and that will become increasingly influential as time moves on – will be the Islamist. It WILL influence government policy. It WILL condemn generation after generation of women and gays to inequality, and it WILL result in anti-semitism becoming the norm.
It may not result in another Nazi Germany, but it will create an ugly, strife-torn society where a large proportion of the population lives in ignorance, anger and thwarted possibilities, while another, smaller group, is stoned in the streets. Do we really want that to happen?
| 14 February 2009, 8:44 am |
I would add – I think a real problem has become the disengagement of the sections of the Left in to single-issueism. The Cold War ended and they had nothing left to believe in, so they embraced “issues” without having any foundation in ideology – oppositionalism for its own sake. This has led to their demise as a credible, coherent alternative – their very weakness causing them to fall into the muscular arms of the fascists (as well, of course, as the Notting Hill Billies, who could finally sign up to the Guardian without pangs of trust fun guilt – aren’t we all green, anti-racists now?).
But Democratic Socialism is a possibility, not a pipe dream. It used to be the cornerstone of the Labour movement until Thatch and the end of the Cold War spelled its demise. Yet as recent events have proved, there was no end of history. It is surely time for us to renew our allegiance to a belief grounded in principal, one that is strong enough to stand up to the fascists from both right and left.
| 14 February 2009, 9:35 am |
Boynomore – well said.
| 14 February 2009, 9:43 am |
zkharya,
I would love that, but please note that although I used to be associated with UCL, that was a long time ago and I don’t live in London any longer. However, I do visit London occasionally, for professional and other reasons.
How often do you get there? Where do you live?
| 14 February 2009, 9:48 am |
Boynomore -
very good analysis of today’s extreme so-called ‘left’, and of society’s capacity to turn a blind eye to what is happening right now.
Of course there is no ‘end of history’. I thought from the start that was ignorant nonsense. But I am unsure why the end of the cold war, let alone Thatcher, was necessarily the cause of democratic socialism’s demise.
| 14 February 2009, 9:58 am |
Ben,
So you would defend freedom of speech in general, but refuse to defend freedom of speech in any particular case because it’s a storm in a teacup?
Mrs Ben,
Smith has nil competence, and fewer brains. She is a pathetic party hack, but was probably the best of a bad lot at the time so got promoted. Which is all you need to know about the prats mis-governing us.
| 14 February 2009, 10:05 am |
Mitnaged, Zkharya et. al: I am a King’s College London JSoc committee member. I will be passing along the details of this demo to the relevant people.
| 14 February 2009, 10:08 am |
David T: This isn’t a merely Jewish issue, albeit that Jews are one of its primary targets.
It is possible that it is a wedge issue – ie by hiving off Jews/Israelis from the rest of society/globe, the Islamists are able to show the extent of their power in determining the agenda – an agenda which and this must be emphasised is to everyone’s detriment. Of course, they have many fellow travellers among which are the self-hating Jews. The Jews are the litmus paper.
What a mess.
| 14 February 2009, 10:28 am |
nearly oxfordian, l live in cardiff, but i sometimes go into london for library visits. It’s difficult because i’m disabled but fortunately i have a friend who works in senate house institute of classical studies.
| 14 February 2009, 10:29 am |
Ben – if it were not Geert Wilders but someone regarded as more moderate speaking out against Islamic tyranny would that be acceptable, or are we not allowed to associate the words Islamic and tyranny in the same idea?
Anyone who speaks out against Islamic tyranny or medieval practices is automatically accused by the Moslem fellow travellers here of being Jewish or a Jewish sympathiser, as a term of abuse. If it is said by a Moslem they are accused of being an apostate and a traitor to their religion.
| 14 February 2009, 10:41 am |
Mrs Ben (and Ben might want to think about it also),
The test of free speech is allowing someone with whose ideas you disagree to express them, even in an immoderate style (short of incitement to commit crimes). I would have thought this was quite elementary.
| 14 February 2009, 11:02 am |
Andrew C McCarthy ‘Preserving Harmony for Islamic Radicals.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDVhODU5MDQ2OTg5OGNmOWJkNjk3MTRlYTg4MGJjZjM
| 14 February 2009, 11:23 am |
Ban Milibland for:
a) Holding a banana at a public event;
b) Incessant gurning;
c) Pathetic claims to leadership qualities;
d) Believing that he is fit for purpose;
e) Making a mess of UK’s community relations, ie the Government’s embarrassing response to Wilders will damage community cohesion irrevocably. Hopefully it never recovers under the terms envisaged by Lord Ahmed and his chums.
| 14 February 2009, 12:51 pm |
43 Group: TOMORROW!
I have asked DavidT to post this as ‘DoSomething’
http://www.spiroark.org/events/287/saluting-heroes-in-our-midst/
When: 15/02/2009
Where: Hampstead Garden Suburb Synagogue, Norrice Lea London N2 0RE
Time: 6.30 for 7.00pm
Contact: 020 7723 9991
Price: £10
I agree we need a ‘(Grand)Children of ‘43 Group’.
What better event at which to launch it ……….
| 14 February 2009, 1:12 pm |
I will be there. This nonsense has to be challenged.
It needs leadership. Harry, can you do this? I hope so.
| 14 February 2009, 1:20 pm |
David T: This should be made into a facebook event. In yesterday’s Jewish Chronicle there was an article on Israel’s ‘cyber-warriors’; I’m sure if you got in touch with any of the individuals mentioned, they would help you spread word of the protest far and wide.
| 14 February 2009, 1:46 pm |
There is a move to demo outside Royal Court on Wednesday 8.30-9.30 against ‘7 Jewish Children’. Watch Facebook and here. Not confirmed yet.
“JC says it’s antisemitic – tell her”
“Tell her Israel has the right to defend itself”
“Tell her Jewish children died too”
“Tell her Israel wants peace”
| 14 February 2009, 4:43 pm |
Those gvt advisors on extremism are at it again: I wonder if HP is one of the sites accused in this email:
A government adviser on extremism was criticised last night after sending an email claiming “Jews” were behind a number of websites that undermined Islam.
Using his government email address, Maqsood Ahmed, who works at the department for Communities and Local Government, forwarded an email which stated that a number of websites it listed had been “developed by Jews who intentionally are spreading wrong information about the Qur’an, the hadith [sayings of Muhammad] and Islam itself”.
Ahmed was criticised last night by Muslim and Jewish groups for forwarding the email. “What is absolutely bewildering is that someone like Maqsood Ahmed should forward the email without any comment and from his official address,” said Anas Altikriti of the British Muslim Initiative. “At the very least sending this email reveals a serious lack of judgment.”
Last night Ahmed admitted he had made an error of judgment.
read the rest
| 14 February 2009, 4:48 pm |
Not only do Jooooos control the Press, they also control the WWW
(.. I wish ….)
| 14 February 2009, 5:10 pm |
“At present, one of the biggest threats to security in Europe is terrorism. Since the 1980s, more than 90 European citizens have been killed in terror attacks committed by the terrorist organisation Hezbollah. Experts on terrorism say that Europe is at risk of a terrorist attack and I wonder why Hezbollah is only on the UK and Dutch lists of terrorist organisations and not on the EU’s”, said Jana Hybášková MEP at a press conference following the panel discussion with experts on the terrorist threats in Europe.
(…)
Putting Hezbollah on the list of terrorist organisations would further disable fundraising opportunities and would freeze their financial assets located in Europe. There are approximately around 900 sleepers of Hezbollah in Germany according to some estimates. Al-Manar, Hezbollah’s satellite television station, which was banned from the EU satellite network, is still spreading its terrorist propaganda to European viewers.
“Terrorism is an imminent danger for Europe and it is our duty to warn citizens about its threats. I call upon the Council and the Commission to seriously deal with these threats and with those who oppose the classification of Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, jeopardising the lives of European citizens”, concluded Hybášková .
Hezbollah missing from EU terror list. Jana Hybášková MEP
http://www.epp-ed.eu/Press/showpr.asp?PRControlDocTypeID=1&PRControlID=7777&PRContentID=13548&PRContentLG=en
| 14 February 2009, 5:34 pm |
It would appear that the way to get Jacqui Smith running scared is to threaten to get 10 thousand demonstrators on the streets. The Board of Deputies of British Jews should get the Jewish community out. The Metropolitan Police see the Jewish Community as law abiding perhaps its time to change that view.
| 14 February 2009, 6:11 pm |
Thanks, Benjamin Gray. David T, what do you envisage?
The conference lasts for a week. Do you want a presence there every day?
| 14 February 2009, 6:23 pm |
What is good for the goose is good for the gander, why should one be banned and the other given freedom of speech. The world is going mad
| 14 February 2009, 6:44 pm |
Paula – that’s an interesting post, particularly in light of the fact that over the past couple of weeks Israelis living or travelling abroad – especially Europe -have been officially warned to beware of attacks or attempted kidnappings by Hizbollah.
The word is that one attack in an un-named European country has already been foiled due to co-operation between that country’s security services and Israel.
As Hizbollah is indeed proscribed in the UK, there should be no question at all regarding Moussaoui’s entry status to the UK – he should be automatically banned.
| 14 February 2009, 6:59 pm |
While you are of course quite right in viewing Wilders as a rabble-rouser, I think you have made a mistake in supporting the ban on him entering the UK.
This was posted on the CIF thread of Lord Ahmed on the Wilders affair. The commenter calls himself Inayat. Is this our very own Bungle?
If Wilders broke our laws while in the UK then he should have rightly been prosecuted. But to pre-empt that is not only unfair but it also gives ammunition to those such as Zionist groups who insistently call on the government to ban Islamic leaders such as Qaradawi and Ibrahim Musawi from coming to the UK.
We should be restricting the power of governments to take arbitrary decisions such as these, not emboldening them.
| 14 February 2009, 7:06 pm |
Ami, who is ‘you’? A great many Brits would rather ban the vile Jacqui Smith.
| 14 February 2009, 7:08 pm |
Last night Ahmed admitted he had made an error of judgment
And is he going to be censured by the Department?
Answers on a postcard.
| 14 February 2009, 7:42 pm |
Nearly Oxfordian- Sorry the quotes got lost- the whole thing was Inayat commenting on Lord Ahmed’s post- “you” is Lord Ahmed, being addressed by Inayat. From subsequent responses to Inayat on the thread, it seems this is Bunglawala.
Note how he talks of Zionist groups who will call for the ban of Musawi! He is so practised now in smoothly substituting “Zionist” for Jews, that he doesn’t even perceive how grotesque the result is – as if only Zionists will object to Musawi’s TV station’s vile blood libel and Elders of Zion series. Never mind Jews, never mind decent people of any stripe.
| 14 February 2009, 8:34 pm |
The Boys Of Taggar Betar Done A Good Job Outside Marks And Sparks But They Did Not Get Much Support. Yep, We Do Need The 43’s Again – No Doubt- We Don’t Need To Be Pushed Around By The So Called Cst And Bod – Both Try To Ingratiate Themselves To The Powerless “Powers”.
| 14 February 2009, 8:44 pm |
I have been given Jacqui Smith’s direct email address:
| 15 February 2009, 4:05 pm |
Spot On – good, so get on with it then.
The news gets worse every day. If only I could be there I certainly would. I think it is the paramount duty especially of non-Jews to act in every way they can and protest at the venue. I’ve already tried the write to your M.P. gambit, but I don’t have a British postcode, of course. David T, can I use your father’s postcode. I’m in such a state of shock now, I’ll have to collect my wits and write later. Or can you suggest any other address I can e-mail and/or send a letter to?