Harry's Place

I’m not qualified to comment but i generally have a deep cynicism about these media reports of alleged statistical changes which are usually given to any spin on statistics that creates a story. Hopefully the ever excellent Ben Goldacre at Bad Science will give these figures a good fisking.

Good point – is there any way that you ever could get accurate statistics on the increase (or decrease) of something like domestic violence? It is an emotive subject and comments may reflect this.

It’s actually one in five women, not men

Ah so it is – one in five women feels that men are justified in lashing out…

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith was left ashen-faced

Altogether now:
Awwwwwww …..

‘Tirade’, eh? No hint of bias, then.

But surely the issue is not whether domestic violence is increasing or decreasing, though either can of course be spun into a good story, particularly the former. Surely the real point is that there is far too much of it about.

Surely the real point is that there is far too much of it about.

Is there? How do you know?

Slapping the wife wrong? Never did my Doris any harm. Dinner always on the table at 6:30pm, runs my bath at 9:00pm, scrubs the front step every day and always makes sure the coal scuttle is full.

Sheesh, another British tradition being thrown to the dogs. I blame multiculturalism meself. Next you’ll be telling me that sending my kids up the chimney and chucking slops out of the window are banned.

They call it progress?!!!

“I blame multiculturalism meself.”

Funny you say that, on the subject of domestic abuse I’d say multiculturalism played a very big part, second only to booze.
I remember reading about how domestic abuse fell during Prohibition in the US, but cant remember where. And like someone else has said, hard crime to determine.

I wonder myself if the “stick” approach of a “register” will work. I do so on the basis of remembering being about 19 and in my first serious long-lasting relationship and thinking that the carefree fun of teenage years was over – all the pressures of being an adult seemed to have fallen upon me and there was the occasional argument with the missus during which a red fog descended and (although I hasten to add I never gave in to it and hit her) I sometimes found myself thinking shuttup! SHUTTUP! SHUTTUP! and could see when rationalising it in retrospect how someone might have gone from that point into mindless violence against an easy target…

Thinking back now the main problem was having nobody that you could talk to about those feelings – some may have been able to discuss it with their parents but I know I could not have done so.

So I wonder (being the wet liberal that I am) if the carrot of a social work department dedicated to helping young men overcome violent feelings would be better (at least for non-serial offenders) than the stick of a “register”?

Graham – the Government cannot do everything for people. Men have to learn to control their feelings themselves and, while having people to talk about the strains of relationships is helpful, I dont think a Government appointed, taxpayer funded social worker is the best option.

I dont think Jacqui Smith’s register would be aimed at people like yourself who might have rationalised violence, but rather serial girlfriend-beaters, the really nasty bullies out there, of whom there are many. However no doubt like all slapstick authoritarian Government schemes, it will end up persecuting the wrong people.

scrubs the front step every day

You mean you could afford a front step????

Perhaps it’s worth mentioning that ballpark a third of reported domestic violence incidents are of women against men. Then there’s the nonreported cases to consider too. Or is this register intended for only for the male offenders then?

Graham – the Government cannot do everything for people.

Indeed not but without any seemingly meaningful statistics to go on I am merely drawing from personal experience (and therefore -of course- ignoring a lot of other evidence.)

However it does seem to me that if there were many like I was at the age of 19 (and if even a small fraction of those became abusers) then government money might well be usefully spent on prevention.

So I wonder (being the wet liberal that I am) if the carrot of a social work department dedicated to helping young men overcome violent feelings

As Ed said, not the government’s remit to be everyone’s parent.

Even non-serial abusers, ‘nice’ people, those who just snapped once under stress and slapped their partner, are unlikely to go to the town hall to talk to a social worker (and as we know, we are hardly knee-deep in highly qualified, competent social workers). The serious thugs certainly won’t.

And I am fed up to the gills with people assuming it’s never the woman who hits the man. I jave known cases where it was the reverse.

Perhaps it’s worth mentioning that ballpark a third of reported domestic violence incidents are of women against men.

The only actual domestic violence I ever encountered personally came from a woman I went out with. Friends later told me they were scared shitless of her but to afraid to say anything.

By the way given the experience of the CSA I am sure that a “domestic abuse register” would cost quite a bit more than a few social workers.

The interesting aspect here is that the views expressed in the Daily Mirror come from women, not men. I wonder if it was a Freudian slip which led Graham to mix that up? Because one is not allowed to say anything, however helpful it might be, if it looks at all like “blaming the victims”. I wouldn’t want to do that – of course violence is always the fault of the perpetrator, and men who beat up women deserve to be hung from a hook in a butcher’s window – but for me the interesting question is why so many women a) hook up with and b) stay with, violent scumbags. It almost seems that violence and thuggery provide an evolutionary advantage. If thugs didn’t get laid the problem would surely be reduced. But I’ve no idea how to tackle that one.

I wonder if it was a Freudian slip which led Graham to mix that up?

I think it was more likely the Mirror’s sub-editors who managed to produce: “one in five reckons fell as are justified”.

And I am fed up to the gills with people assuming it’s never the woman who hits the man

You need to watch Hollyoaks more

According to a rather shocking poll revealed in Today’s Daily Mirror domestic violence is on the increase

The article you linked to doesn’t actually say that, Graham. It says “Shocking numbers of women still think it is okay for their men to hit them”, and then goes to elaborate on that point. It doesn’t mention any statistical change in relation to domestic abuse. It is about there “still” being a significant minority of people, men and women, who think that domestic violence is OK in certain circumstances. That is a problem but it’s not the problem you suggest in your opening line. Maybe you meant to link to another article?

On the face of it shocking numbers indeed. I can’t find the actual report on the web, it’s a shame cos it’d be interesting to see what definition of domestic violence is in use in this instance cos as with many other problems I suspect a wide spectrum of behaviour is being junked into one category to make a real problem sound much worse than it actually is.

Why not just treat domestic violence as other violence rather than as a “women’s issue”. If Amnesty wanted to put an end to domestic abuse of women they could do so by increasing our prison population and ending early releases.

Why is it a man who beats up his girlfriend who willingly lives with him despite knowing of his violence is committing some sort of hate crime, but reporting about the same men beating up random strangers is moral panic?

RE: By the way given the experience of the CSA I am sure that a “domestic abuse register” would cost quite a bit more than a few social workers.

You might also consider the Canadian Gun Registry, which was forecast to cost $2 million or so and ended up costing billions. A collosal waste of money, and I say this as a strong advocate of gun control.

It doesn’t mention any statistical change in relation to domestic abuse.

True, but it does mention a rise in gang rapes and tries to link this to rap and gang culture. We can argue about this being “domestic violence” if you like, but as I (and others) have already indicated that there don’t seem to be any worthwhile statistics on the subject perhaps it would be better to see my claim as downright blog provocation!

Are the figures in here somewhere?

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/content/home-page-news/impact-of-the-economic-downturn-on-women.ashx

Don’t have the time to look myself and my computer hates PDFs

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/violence-against-women1/

http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/EE65BA46E19A2FC780257574003B82AF?OpenDocument

Well that’s clever – a comment of my own has gone into moderation because it was merely two links and I don’t know how to get it out…

http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/EE65BA46E19A2FC780257574003B82AF?OpenDocument

I’ve never hit women; it’s just not something one does. But I have been smacked and attacked physically by females a few times and seen a goodly few abusive females in my time.

In fact if I’m honest, I’d have to say that my personal experience in the aggregate, is of women being rather considerably notably more abusive than men. It doesn’t have to be physical to be devastating.

But I wouldn’t trust my experience to be representative.

My immediate inclination – with the caveat that I’m no expert – is that a register would be way too open to abuse by the vindictive and that more legislation here is not the best way forward, there are too many laws on the books as it is. Rather work at properly socialising kids so they grow up into functional adults.

A small woman often seems to have the conviction that she can hit (or worse) a large man without ever doing any real damage.

Pdf is an enormous pain and I wish people would stop using it. Here’s a similar sounding survey from 2003 written up by the bbc.

Whenever it came to domestic violence at the hands of someone they loved, about two-thirds said they could put up with occasional name calling, and one woman in five would accept an isolated slap or punch.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2752567.stm
Course constant verbal bullying is a form of abusive behaviour too… but here it’s the pattern that makes it a problem isn’t it? And that’s something the surveys don’t seem to capture very well, certainly not by the time the hacks have regurgitated it.

and I say this as a strong advocate of gun control.

I am a strong advocate of gun control too, I recommend a firm 2 handed grip with the stock pulled back securely into the shoulder, a solid stance and sticking with semi auto.

Come on Nick, the only gun worth having fires 15 inch shells 27,000 yards…. Well they are the one I like…ah the old 15″ Mk 2 ….

As a man, I find all this “but women hit men, too” stuff pretty embarrassing. It’s perfectly true that this happens – it’s happened to me – but to compare this to the trauma experienced by women who are regularly knocked about by male bullies is, frankly, disgusting.

The point is that man – in all but the most exceptional circumstances – can either subdue the woman or extricate himself from each violent situaiton. The reverse is almost never true for the woman. It’s this precise feeling of helplessness and of being at the mercy of someone stronger that defines a fear that most men simply don’t get near to experiencing, whilst female victims of domestic abuse live with it almost constantly.

Seriously guys, you need to have a fucking word with yourselves.

Since this IS HP then its entirely appropriate to record the Australian Imam’s advice on beating a woman and her duty to have sex on demand http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/01/28/imam-samir-abu-hamza-ok-to-beat-force-sex-on-wives.htm

From this we can easily extrapolate that any rise in domestic violence is OBVIOUSLY due to immigration and the increase in the Muslim population.

In the next few days the Quilliam Foundation will produce a paper on urging Muslims to follow the covenent of being British and respect women, and Anjem Choudry will appear being carried by four burkha clad women upon a royal chair. BNP will then launch its “Respect British Women” programme and Boots will withdraw the Home FGM Kit.

Apologies, that mushroom soup at lunchtime DID taste a bit strange. Look, there goes the White Rabbit……

Insert pompus name here:
Are the figures in here somewhere?
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/content/home-page-news/impact-of-the-economic-downturn-on-women.ashx

No. The closest that survey gets is that 5% of respondents say they have been arguing more at home.

Following on from SmartCookie – it could be worse, violence against women could be state-sponsored

A Saudi Arabian court has sentenced a 75-year-old Syrian woman to 40 lashes, four months imprisonment and deportation from the kingdom for having two unrelated men in her house, according to local media reports.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/

Brownie:

it’s happened to me – but to compare this to the trauma experienced by women who are regularly knocked about by male bullies is, frankly, disgusting

It cuts to intent and control….think Hamas and Gaza Vs Israel.

The point is that man – in all but the most exceptional circumstances –

The point is not to excuse men who hit, far, far from it. It is rather to point out that damaging abuse takes many forms, that psychological abuse can be every bit as damaging as physical abuse. That the psychologically abusive environment in which all too many kids are raised echoes through the generations.

There are laws already on the books for violent behavior. Existing laws do not force women stay with violent men, nor do they stop abused women pressing charges, or stop them getting a restraining order; how will new laws address this?

What real World benefit will this sort of law confer…against what cost?

As a man, I find all this “but women hit men, too” stuff pretty embarrassing. It’s perfectly true that this happens – it’s happened to me – but to compare this to the trauma experienced by women who are regularly knocked about by male bullies is, frankly, disgusting.

Ah, I was waiting for some idiot to weigh in with the knee-jerk ‘You cannot compare a ton of bricks falling on your head with a ton of feathers doing likewise’. You never disappoint.

Disgusting, eh … you sure are – a disgusting and ignorant follower of PC hypocrisy. I have been on the receiving end of an attack with a shovel by my female partner. Fortunately, although I am not physically strong I am reasonably agile and had just done a bit of brisk fielding, so I was focused and alert. Otherwise I would have ended up with a severe cranial fracture.

But hey, with my chromosomes I am bound to be the aggressor, never the victim. So hath decreed the PC police, in the person of Kommisar B.

Nobody is comparing mild slapping with severe violence (except you).

I agree with NO each case needs to be judged on its individual circumstances taking into account not the gender of the victim but the amount of damage (both physical and mental) done. Also I think that in this case, as in so many other, political correctness only serves to provide a cover for the least scrupulous members of the group its trying to protect and will encourage individual women to hit men knowing they wont retaliate (ie the decent men) but doesnt do a thing to protect those who are actually being abused.

Nick, I wondered who the first person to mention Israel and Gaza would be. But I was expecting something more along the lines of THE REAL ISSUE IS ALL THE WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE APARTHEID ZIONIST IMPERIALIST WAR AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE

have been on the receiving end of an attack with a shovel by my female partner.

Why doesn’t that surpise us?

disgusting and ignorant follower of PC hypocrisy

Not quite sure what this has to do with political correctness. If anything I’d say you are indulging in a good bout of it by urging us to remember that spousal violence knows no gender boundaries. You PC nut

First comment, by Stephen:

I’m not qualified to comment but i generally have a deep cynicism about these media reports of alleged statistical changes which are usually given to any spin on statistics that creates a story. Hopefully the ever excellent Ben Goldacre at Bad Science will give these figures a good fisking.

Yup. ten years after being completely debunked, I still hear the claim that domestic violence spikes on Super Bowl Sunday.

What Brownie said.

Yes, I’ve once had a woman tell me that “women do it too” and I’m sure there are brainwashed female followers of some thuggish imam who will nod at his misogyny. But to suggest any sort of equivalence between the sexes in situations of domestic violence is, at the very least, disingenuous.

(Far-from-Oxfordian: you are an idiot.)

I have been on the receiving end of an attack with a shovel by my female partner….But hey, with my chromosomes I am bound to be the aggressor, never the victim.

Well I don’t live with you, yet barely a day goes by and I don’t want to hit you with a shovel.

Doesnt domestic violence go up in Scotland every time the national side loses a game, ie every single time they play? I seem to remember some story about Gazza’s goal in Euro 96 leading to a spike, although its hard to tell.
booze is certainly a major factor in domestic violence.

Yup. ten years after being completely debunked, I still hear the claim that domestic violence spikes on Super Bowl Sunday.

In Los Angeles, Mexican Independence Day is when domestic violence spikes. Too much booze.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29751

GAINESVILLE, FL—A study released Monday by researchers at the University of Florida indicates a strong link between domestic violence against women and burned pot roasts.

In addition to unsatisfactorily prepared meals, the study found that a number of other factors were linked to domestic violence, including: always nagging about getting the roof fixed, blocking the TV when the big game is on, and repeatedly demanding to know exactly what goes on at that bar all day and night.

Well I don’t live with you, yet barely a day goes by and I don’t want to hit you with a shovel.

If Tony Martin had merely battered young Barras’s brains out with a shovel would you have stood up for him then?

“As a man, I find all this “but women hit men, too” stuff pretty embarrassing. It’s perfectly true that this happens – it’s happened to me – but to compare this to the trauma experienced by women who are regularly knocked about by male bullies is, frankly, disgusting.”

To compare the trauma of a woman “knocked about” to the trauma of a man threatened with a knife or a gun or he loss of his children is more disgusting. What’s embarassing is your Victorian attitude.

“The point is that man – in all but the most exceptional circumstances – can either subdue the woman or extricate himself from each violent situaiton. ”

Of course – unless he ever wants to see his children again.

“The reverse is almost never true for the woman. ”

How so? She’s chained to the wall? Can’t pay her own rent?

“It’s this precise feeling of helplessness and of being at the mercy of someone stronger that defines a fear that most men simply don’t get near to experiencing, whilst female victims of domestic abuse live with it almost constantly.”

You simply have no clue, do you? You might start by asking Erin Pizzey what she has to say on the subject.

“Seriously guys, you need to have a fucking word with yourselves.”

Seriously, Brownie, you need to take your own advice.

Jim, you haven’t actually made any points to contradict Brownie’s arguments. In order to take the debate forward, you need to actually make substantive points rather than just ranting and raving.

a significant minority of people, men and women, who think that domestic violence is OK in certain circumstances

Probably people who were brought up with low-level domestic abuse and who have therefore normalised it.

Thumping someone because you do not have the linguistic ability to continue or conclude a verbal argument is something that most people grew out of by the age of 10.

Clearly education is part of the answer but allowing mass immigration from societies where domestic violence is common and approved of, has clearly set us back a couple of decades.

I once heard a case of horrendous domestic violence on holiday. I can assure you that whilst the man was doling it out, the woman goaded him very inch of the way in the most foul and offensive terms. There was no way I was going to intervene and risk my own life and limb for such a disgusting excuse for a human being. I feel sorry for the Police who must have to face low life couples like that day in and day out.

What is required are exemplary prison sentences and prosecutions of couples like that for wasting police time. They’ll soon get the message.

If Tony Martin had merely battered young Barras’s brains out with a shovel would you have stood up for him then?

Bashing someone’s brains out with a shovel (or shooting them) and merely “wanting” to do so are not the same thing at all.

If Tony Martin had merely battered young Barras’s brains out with a shovel would you have stood up for him then?

Is Barras related to Nearly Oxfordian in this scenario?

They are collecting the DNA of children so why not open a file at that point, which could include a complete sexual history. It would be useful in preventing inbreeding in the future. Cretinism seems to be on the increase.

Clearly education is part of the answer

Yes, but perhaps most important, is choosing ones parents carefully…

Yesterday, Sunday, was Women’s Day in Italy. I was discussing it in the grocery shop the day before and I suggested that there should be a day in the year when men are punished. I was joking, but now I wonder…Spades would be forbidden.

Women’s Lib – and Men’s Lib – evidently have a long way to go. No one speaks of psychological conditioning and sado-masochism.

I once new a woman in England who was being regularly beaten by her boyfriend, locked up in the kitchen for whole days. We all did everything we could to console and encourage her to leave him. Friends took her into their home. Then one day, boyfriend arrived at the front door, and she quietly walked off with him, completely under his spell. We were the villains.

I’m not entirley surprised by these things and think rape, beatings, paedophilia may be on the increase due to socio-economically regressive tendecies in society. I mean, apart from cultural regression, these economic crises are reducing people to dregs. On Tv programmes chat shows, Big Brother etc. that go on all day in Italy:the worst kind of pitiless ego-centrism, aggression and full tilt viciousness are encouraged because they create ‘an audience.’ Ergo, this is what the people want. (Just the place for Galloway. I wouldn’t be surprised if he jumped on the anti-semitic bandwagon to further his populist career. Let’s hope it backfires)

In Italy the punishments for rapes have been desperately increased, but everyday new cases are being reported. When will people learn that, while punishment is necessary, it is not the answer to everything?

When my dear friend, Moses, was visiting me, he said he was an optimist and I said I was a pessimist. I added that the pessimists were the greatest optimists, because, in seeing the bad, they show they want something better. He was not convinced. But one day we had spent a lovely day in Venice, walking ourselves to death, because I took wrong turnings -it’s a wonder he didn’t give me a little slap – we were sitting on the train back to Verona, and, what with the crowds and all, I had one of those surreal moments when my little bit of thick skin ceded, and I said, “If you consider what the TV offers and that this reflects the population who watches it, one may as well commit suicide immediately.” For a split second he agreed with me. But we emerged from this abyss and enjoyed the rest of the holiday.

‘Nobody is comparing mild slapping with severe violence’ We should test this thesis on NO. No shovels or anything fancy like

What Brownie said. Get a fucking grip. Several women in my life have suffered not just from ‘mild slapping’ but from battery from men in the past, that is a perverted social relationship/micro-dictatorship based purely on the power of violence. As is so often the case, much of this violence did not remain purely via fists or feet.

In the seemly rare cases of female on male battery, the same attention and care should be shown to the victim and the same punishment and rehibilitation should be shown to the perp as in Male-female. But let not pretend that this is not a highly gendered phenomena. You don’t beat sovereign individuals, you don’t descend into violence as some acceptable social norm.

Even NO, the new pin up over at the trots btw, does not deserve to have a shovel on the bonce, no matter how unfortuanately hilarious it might seem in the abstract, no one does.

Even NO, the new pin up over at the trots btw

Really? I was told they had only just discovered walter Benjamin ;-)

You think Fromm had a point when he said God died in the 19th century and man died in the 20th Felix?

“Jim, you haven’t actually made any points to contradict Brownie’s arguments. In order to take the debate forward, you need to actually make substantive points rather than just ranting and raving.”

The reference to Erin Pizzey would have led him, and you for that matter, to one substantive point, since she was so foundational in the development of DV shelters and has some very apposite things to say about gender bias in that area.

It’s a very big subject with studies and countervailing studies and emotions running very high on all sides, and a few “substantive points” in a blog comment really are beside the point.

Just saw the segment on this on C4 news. What really amazingly crap reporting that failed to address the issue.

This whole thing has the rancid whiff of misandry.

Anyway, there is a problem these days in that society is excessively feminised, certainly education seems to be if we look at the under performance of boys.

A for example… my 12 yr old son’s primary school in Pretoria, South Africa, the only male teacher is his Sotho teacher, this is a new phenomenon that’s manifest over the last 20 or so years. Girls are definitely favoured and boys regularly disparaged and given the not so subtle ’slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails’ treatment. My son’s ‘gat vol’ (fed up) of it, and no I didn’t project my views onto him; it was through him that I started noticing it. I get the impression from a number of sources that this is also manifesting in Europe and North America too?

Even NO, the new pin up over at the trots btw, does not deserve to have a shovel on the bonce, no matter how unfortuanately hilarious it might seem in the abstract, no one does.

You’re quite right of course. It’s a serious subject. But a shovel on NO’s head. A trowel even. Sigh. . .

The usual baying mob of delusional ‘progressives’ in all its glory. The unspeakable in pursuit of brainless consensus. Anyone who dares to voice an opinion not approved by the central committee gets vilified.

The facts, broadly stated, are that Domestic Violence is the
1) second most common kind of violent crime reported to UK Police 2) most common kind of violent crime reported to the British Crime Survey.

It’s defined as violence within the family or between people who are or have been partners.

The Sex Offenders Register is thoroughly Policed by keeping a very close eye on Child Molesters and Rapists once they leave prison. They’re obiliged to tell the Police if they move home.

I think a similar regime for those convicted of or cautioned for Domestic Violence could work very well. It would fit well with the Target that the Met Police have for Domestic (as for racist) offences: to reduce repeat victimisation.

The usual baying mob of delusional ‘progressives’ in all its glory. The unspeakable in pursuit of brainless consensus. Anyone who dares to voice an opinion not approved by the central committee gets vilified.

This seems an odd statement as there are all sorts of opinions being voiced on this thread.

Will the “credit crunch” cause more middle-class domestic abuse I wonder?

Graham’s familiar cod Marxism is much in evidence in this post, I see.

Cod Marxism beats Carping capitalism!

But how is it Marxist in any way to wonder if paying more for your mortgage might lead to domestic violence?

Graham, March 9th 2009, 1:13 pm

“one in five [women feeling that men] are justified in lashing out if their partner is dressed in revealing clothes. One in seven believes violence is justifiable if she is nagging or moaning at him. And one in 10 thinks they would deserve a slap if caught flirting with other blokes.”

What we should do is interpret the results of surveys in an intelligent manner, informed by the Pyschology of perception and the fariiy simple numeracy of statistics and probability.

I never cease to be amazed how many seem to believe that everyone answering a question has understood it in the same way, or has heard the same question that they were asked!

Rather more uncommon sense, is to emancipate yourself from comparing the results of a survey to your own opinion (what the hell kind of scientific scepticism is that?) or to a flat graph. Free your mind from that flat line and compare the actual survey results to a random distribution (or a bell curve).

Then you might find that those apparently alarming one in five, one in seven and one in ten figures are what you might expect from a minority of people answering a question they haven’t thought about and aren’t very interested in. The alternative would be to believe that there is at least one person soft on violent crime on most juries. We know that is probably not true, since a jury convicted the gun killer Tony Martin of Murder in his own home during a burglary.

To those blaming booze: booze doesn’t create violence, or at least individual episodes of drunkenness don’t (obviously alcoholism is a separate issue). What booze does is to unleash violent thoughts and feelings that were already there.

As has been pointed out the survey finds that women in what are termed shockingly high numbers believe that violence towards them would be justified in some circumstances (other questions then detail some of those circumstances) – which is not a claim that domestic violence is on the increase or even that it is already at very high levels.

As an aside it’s worth noting that WRT to other attitudes 20% may be regarded as an encouragingly small percentage by some and a distressingly high one by others – eg if 20% of British Muslims were to favour the imposition of strict Sharia Law in Britain it might be and encouragingly and releivedly small number to some and alarmingly large number to others.

I am not entirely surprised by this survey, chav culture, the thoughtless deconstruction of the gentleman as a cultural ideal, the equally entirely ideological and idiotic attempt to rebirth those taboos that the Gentleman was supposed to live by in an almost entirely emasculated form virtually assured that a reborn primitive machismo – often coming from Chav and Gang culture combined with raunch culture to undermine the attitude to domestic violence.

What we can say about actual rates of Domestic Violence and the condition of women is much harder – the problem can be , is probably likely to be – worst where data is least. Where women are nearly totally oppressed there is very little data, and reporting rates are best where Women feel confident in the Sytem’s response – and by it’s nature it is a problem that is exceedingly hard to measure even via surveys.

Booze is a largely a truth drug; people who are violent arseholes who pick fights, physical or verbal when pissed, are not acting out of character; they are merely being themselves.

In my line of work, especially the A&E part, one sees the results of violence in all its permutations. Men against women (and v.v.), violence between gay partners of both sexes, parents against children, children against parents. If there is a common denominator in the case of repeated violence, I would say that it is low self esteem.
I find it quite incredible that any woman could think that there is any circumstance whatsoever which would ‘justify’ violence against her. If these statistics are true, they are very worrying indeed and further highlight the backward slide of women’s consciousness.

‘The usual baying mob of delusional ‘progressives’ in all its glory. The unspeakable in pursuit of brainless consensus. Anyone who dares to voice an opinion not approved by the central committee gets vilified.’

NO, you really are a tender soul aren’t you. The CC apologises for hurting your feelings and the horrendous witchhunt thereafter

or

toughen the fuck up.

And no, no shovels or trowels. God help him should he go on DSTPFW

Israelinurse – I’m sure you’re right about low self-esteem. But what can one do about it, when so many people choose to lead lives in which there is nothing estimable whatsoever?

Johan W @ 9 March 2009, 11:33 pm

“I am not entirely surprised by this survey, chav culture, the thoughtless deconstruction of the gentleman as a cultural ideal, the equally entirely ideological and idiotic attempt to rebirth those taboos that the Gentleman was supposed to live by in an almost entirely emasculated form virtually assured that a reborn primitive machismo – often coming from Chav and Gang culture combined with raunch culture to undermine the attitude to domestic violence.”

You don’t half write some rubbish, and just after I was warming to your opinion about statistics.

Twice I have visited Bath. The first time I told a colleague (Guyanese) that I wondered where all this wealth had come form and thought she’d be very annoyed by coy references to “investments in the West Indies”.

The second time was an anniverary of the abolition of the trans-Atlantic Slave trade. In one large house museum it was mentioned that the wealthy owner’s views on slavery were not documented. Was was documented was his large collection of Wedgewood, not including any of the abolitionist items.

Who needs models of good behaviour from the rich of that period?

Cipriano -I suppose the answer is education, and by that I mean education for life; not just passing exams and meeting gov’t targets.
It’s about parents teaching children to have self esteem, which I don’t think can be easily done if they don’t have it themselves, although I do believe that moulds of family behaviour can be broken if people really want to.
Modern western society teaches us (through tv., advertising, magazines etc.) that if we don’t conform to consumer culture by having the ‘must have’ items we are worth less than the next guy. We are encouraged to be constantly dissatisfied with our lives, our bodies, our looks -the lot. This is most apparant in adverts aimed at women -if you examine them you see that the overall message is that we’re too fat/the wrong shape/too hairy/smelly/too old/too wrinkled/wrong colour of hair etc. Obviously the aim is to get us to spend money, but there’s a side effect of telling us repeatedly that we’re not ok, which must have an accumulative effect on self esteem. I find the current trend (something I hadn’t seen before I came to the UK) of pre-pubescent girls wearing make-up, high heels and frankly tarty clothes very disturbing indeed. It teaches them from an early age to define themselves according to how overtly sexually appealing they are to others before they have even established for themselves who they actually are.
Hardly surprising then that young girls today aspire more to be a footballer’s wife (again, defining themselves through someone else) than a scientist or a doctor.

Cipriano -I suppose the answer is education, and by that I mean education for life; not just passing exams and meeting gov’t targets.
It’s about parents teaching children to have self esteem, which I don’t think can be easily done if they don’t have it themselves, although I do believe that moulds of family behaviour can be broken if people really want to.
Modern western society teaches us (through tv., advertising, magazines etc.) that if we don’t conform to consumer culture by having the ‘must have’ items we are worth less than the next guy. We are encouraged to be constantly dissatisfied with our lives, our bodies, our looks -the lot. This is most apparant in adverts aimed at women -if you examine them you see that the overall message is that we’re too fat/the wrong shape/too hairy/smelly/too old/too wrinkled/wrong colour of hair etc. Obviously the aim is to get us to spend money, but there’s a side effect of telling us repeatedly that we’re not ok, which must have an accumulative effect on self esteem. I find the current trend (something I hadn’t seen before I came to the UK) of pre-pubescent girls wearing make-up, high heels and frankly tarty clothes very disturbing indeed. It teaches them from an early age to define themselves according to how overtly sexually appealing they are to others before they have even established for themselves who they actually are.
Hardly surprising then that young girls today aspire more to be a footballer’s wife (again, defining themselves through someone else) than a scientist or a doctor.
Sorry… forgot to say great post – can’t wait to read your next one!

But how is it Marxist in any way to wonder if paying more for your mortgage might lead to domestic violence?

People are paying less for their mortgage. Interest rates have gone down, not up. In your usual eagerness to bash the middle classes, you appear to be overlooking some rather elementary facts, Graham. Marxists often share the same failing.

IsraeliNurse

I wrote: ” Free your mind from that flat line and compare the actual survey results to a random distribution (or a bell curve).

Then you might find that those apparently alarming one in five, one in seven and one in ten figures are what you might expect from a minority of people answering a question they haven’t thought about and aren’t very interested in.”

You wrote: “I find it quite incredible that any woman could think that there is any circumstance whatsoever which would ‘justify’ violence against her. If these statistics are true, they are very worrying indeed and further highlight the backward slide of women’s consciousness.”

I understand your point. I’m not sure whether you understand mine?