Harry's Place

I’m hungover beyond belief and this just made me feel even worse. I do LOVE Hazel Blear though! What a fucking mess. I’m going to a Q & A qith Nick Clegg on monday, I shall definitely be asking HIS opinion on all this….

Well, the government don’t want to appear anti-semitic – hence the noises against AS but no actual action. It is virtuous posturing.

We will mobilise 10,000 at SOAS

We get the message: ‘British Jews are expendable in this Labour government’s calculations’.

OK, so next question: would Cameron’s lot act any differently?

“would Cameron’s lot act any differently”

Yes. Look at the constituencies where the Muslim vote is strong, then look which party the MP is from

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/september03/Master-list-work5.html

As another poster put it very succinctly and accurately the other day:
This government are scum.

But is that any surprise? When you look at them individually and see how devoid of any discernible talent or integrity they are, never mind any hint of courage, what would you expect?

And as the saying goes, “The fish stinks from the head”.

This is precisely the sort of sectarian calculation that this government’s policy has encouraged people to make.

The message to cultural minorities appears to be: operate as a political bloc, and fight your corner as hard as you can.

Stand for pluralism, tolerance, and accomodation and you’ll be run over and ignored

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/4953470/Campaigners-will-seek-arrest-of-Islamic-radical.html

Hopefully he will be arrested when he gets off the plane

Jacqui Smith: “Last autumn I strengthened the burden of proof that we now place on people when we are considering them for exclusion. Now, if someone has expressed extreme views, in support of terrorism, for example, it is not simply enough for them no longer to be expressing them. The burden of proof will now be on them to demonstrate that they have recanted.”

http://www.thejc.com/articles/antisemitism-key-uk-exclusion-policy

“In his speech to conference delegates [the Parliamentary conference on antisemitism 2 weeks ago], Lord Malloch-Brown [a Foreign Office Minister] said: “I must say as someone who lived most of his adult life in the United States, venturing back to Britain two years ago I am constantly struck by the fact that this conference should be unnecessary because it’s a terrible, terrible, terrible comment on our times that we should be meeting now in 2009 on the subject of antisemitism. An extraordinary thing to reflect on, that after the history of the 20th century this should still be necessary. Having lived in the United States, we always looked from the US side of the Atlantic with … some dismay as we saw antisemitism revive in Europe.” “

Meanwhile, the Government’s stated policy is demonstrated to be absolutely bunkum, and lies.

The reason that the Government says it excludes people is because they:

“foment or justify terrorist violence in furtherance of particular beliefs; seek to provoke others to terrorist acts; foment other serious criminal activity or seek to provoke others to serious criminal acts and foster hatred which might lead to inter-community violence in the UK”

But these rules simply don’t apply to Moussawi, whose job is stirring up inter-community violence in the UK.

They also don’t apply to Wagdi Ghoneim – the man who lead Hamas supporters in a chant about Jews being the “sons of apes”.

Neither do they apply to the Holocaust denier, and anti-Shiite bigot, Qadhi. No, far from a ban for him: a government Minister actually appeared at a conference at which he was speaking. He did not utter a word of reproach to him.

This is such such crap.

Instead, this government rushes to ban the likes of Wilders and Feiglin: two figures whose politics we should be opposing. But we can’t do so effectively, can we? Because when Feiglin says, in response to the ban:

Seeing that renowned terrorists like Hizbullah member Ibrahim Mousawi are welcomed in your country in open arms, I understand that your policy is aimed at encouraging and supporting terror.

… how can we argue agaisnt that?

Still going to vote Labour at the next election then?

speechless…

The message to cultural minorities appears to be: operate as a political bloc, and fight your corner as hard as you can.

No, you are still not getting it. The message is: Break the law and threaten violence.

Still going to vote Labour at the next election then?

Of course.

I am a Labour Party member, and supporter.

Edward,
The ghastly Malloch-Brown is well-known for his mealy-mouthed and pious statements, followed by a swift (virtual, of course – he is a British gentleman, after all) kick to the goolies (nothing personal, don’t you know).

No, you are still not getting it. The message is: Break the law and threaten violence.

And what if I don’t want to live in another Northern Ireland? What if I don’t want to be part of a bloc called “The Jewish Community”

?

Of course.
I am a Labour Party member, and supporter

Beyond belief.
And then you’ll complain about their actions, but it will be down to you because you have been warned about the consequences of keeping them in power.

Because there’s more to a party than just one policy, NO.

And what if I don’t want to live in another Northern Ireland? What if I don’t want to be part of a bloc called “The Jewish Community”

Then you don’t vote for these gangsters. They are not ‘Labour’. That party of your youth is gone for the time being. It’s very sad, but you can’t bring your youth back by wishful thinking. Believe me, I’ve tried.

Because there’s more to a party than just one policy

See my reply above. They are not the Labour party any longer. It’s very difficult to accept such a concept that goes against everything you used to believe in. It’s like someone dying: the first reaction is disbelief. Maybe cognitive dissonance sets in (Mitnaged would be able to comment on this). But ultimately, it needs to be acepted.

I don’t think it’s fair to harangue DavidT about his vote. Many Jewish Labour Party members and supporters will agonise at the next election, just as they did in the London Mayoral election. I know for a fact that many abstained or even voted for BoJo.

“Still going to vote Labour at the next election then?

Of course.

I am a Labour Party member, and supporter.”

David T

After all the complaining you do on this blog about this government and its’ policies, I have to say that your intention to ‘of course’ vote Labour is odd to say the least. How do you think the govt will know that they are doing a bad job, if you will vote for them regardless?

Fitna took the views of Moussawi and his ilk, and implied that they were shared by all Muslims.

David T must have seen a different version of Fitna to the one that I saw.

What this does show is a clear double standard; and it more than strongly implies that if you want immunity from sanction by the British government, the Wilders’ constitutionally democratic approach is not as effective as threats underpinned by a backdrop of intimidatory violence.

I think the current Labour administration’s past its sell by date; alas I’m less convinced that when the Tories take over that they will be much better.

Every government will do SOMETHING during its years in power that its supporters will disapprove of.

“Still going to vote Labour at the next election then?

Of course.

I am a Labour Party member, and supporter.”

David, what sort of behaviour by the Labour Party along these lines would it take for you not to?

DT : “What if I don’t want to be part of a bloc called “The Jewish Community”

You get labelled anyway-sorry to raise it as it is unpleasant but being assimilated Germans (even ones who fought in WW1) was no protection for Jews in the Nazi era. It may not be again, depending how things go.

Personally I am looking to be in California in 5-8 years.

It all stems from the concept of “community cohesion”.

Because damage to “community cohesion” is a criteria on which decisions like this are based, there is an incentive for communities – however defined – to cause trouble as a way of pressurising government.

“Community cohesion” itself is a euphemism generated by the government’s reluctance to identify and label the ideology and value-set that is behind the terrorist threat. That is why Hazel Blears’ speech at LSE a couple of weeks ago, which did just that, seemed like such a shift in approach.

The irony is that many of the British Muslim terrorists that have been identified and convicted in recent years were quite well integrated into British society, at least before becoming radicalised. The link between “community cohesion” and terrorism is based on a set of assumptions that I don’t think hold up to scrutiny.

barad – sense of proportion please: there is a difference between doing an attlee being a hitler.
labour have done an attlee here and it’s deplorable. at the same time they’ve sent troops against the baathists and the taleban – so it’s not total appeasement this time. you’re not seriously suggesting that labour are nazis?

and i don’t see david t “assimilating” in the way you imply (i.e. hide his jewish identity and join a royalist right wing party like the dnvp) – for god’s sake: he’s running this blog after all

David T, I come from North London slum roots in Stoke Newington. My family all working-class Jews. I was a life-time natural Labour supporter like my Dad.

But there came a time after 7/7 that my worst fears since the late 90’s were coming to fruition. I watched Blair stand outside No 10 with the faux Muslim community leaders and make excuses for Islam. I saw how they kept funding the extremists believing them to be moderates because they were MORE moderate that the extremist nutters.

I listened to the excuses on post 9/11 Question Time and the bleating in protection of Islamist Terrorists by Islamist Lawyers. I saw antisemitism become more permissive and the Brits being told by Dr Bari that they were like Nazis for rejecting a tiny minority who shouted their demands loud and backed it with terrorist threats.

I may be Labour in my heart but I have to be non-Labour in my head because they have presided over this. Somehwere they have sold themselves to an Islamist Lobby to the detriment of the country.

If I thought I could fix this by making a BNP protest vote I would if only to demonstrate we are sleep walking to the abyss. We are under threat from racist thugs so why not employ racist thugs to cancel them out?

Voting Tory to fix this might have to be done.

“And what if I don’t want to live in another Northern Ireland? What if I don’t want to be part of a bloc called “The Jewish Community”?”

But that’s how *they* see you an no amount of desire on your behalf will change that. The same BTW for Muslims, Homosexuals, Afro-Carribeans, Poles… That’s what years of “diversity form box ticking” has done to the mentality of the ruling elite. That is how they see the world. Trying to explain that you’re “not just a…” to them is like trying to London Underground map to someone who is totally colour-blind. “So you take Central, that’s the red one…”

“there is an incentive for communities – however defined – to cause trouble as a way of pressurising government.”

Not ‘communities’

“there is an incentive for part of the Muslim community to cause trouble as a way of pressurising government.”

David, perhaps it’s because your not as cynical as some of us that it’s taken you longer to see the writing on the wall. But you can see it for what it is now.

If you won’t vote for naked self-interest then other people will; and your quality of life in this country may well diminish as a consequence.

Well I never! Blears has some backbone after all, if the JC article is to be believed.

Worrisome though is that the rest of this stupid government doesn’t.

Even Labour MPs with large Jewish constituencies don’t seem to care, though. I have repeatedly emailed Andrew Dismore about this and just when I was going to follow up and phone I got an email response to one of my reminders asking me to resend the original email so he could track it down. I did so. That was on Monday. I am still waiting.

If this scumbag is allowed in, I’m voting Tory next time — for the first time in my life. I, like parity ErRor, am from East End Jewish working class stock and I would never have dreamed of voting Tory for fear of antagonising my ancestors.
I propose that if Moussawi is allowed in, we arrange a siege of SOAS. Play them at their own game, as it were.

This isn’t about applying a policy fairly or about appeasing the moslem community. It is about the new policy of engaging with Iran and its organs (syria, hezbollah), as part of the Iraq disengagement strategy. We will just have to wait and see how it goes … it won’t be long before the policy is reversed as a result of a new outrage. Just hope they haven’t got too many nukes by then.

If I were a betting man, I’d have £10 on Exotic Dancer in the Gold Cup, and £20 on this decision to allow Moussawi to come to the UK being overturned.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/4691028/The-laws-duty-is-to-protect-the-innocent-not-to-make-them-prove-their-innocence.html

Scroll halfway down. I am told that Louise Ellman MP refused to sign this letter protesting about ‘Seven Jewish Children’.

It shows how far Labour is in hock to the Muslims.

David T, I come from North London slum roots in Stoke Newington. My family all working-class Jews. I was a life-time natural Labour supporter like my Dad.

I still live there.

“Every government will do SOMETHING during its years in power that its supporters will disapprove of.”

What?? You sound as if you think that appeasement of Islamist terror is of equal importance to raising council tax or cutting welfare benefits!

I can’t believe you made such a remark, David T.

This government has done lots in its years of power to make me feel ashamed and alarmed by turns (and I vote Labour too, or rather I did). I shan’t be doing so again – I’d rather deface my ballot paper.

When is this all going down? I hope I’m in the country to create some discourse. It’s the only way, you have to act like a bunch of selfish pricks in order to make this government listen. And I’m a Labour Party member as well, but I can’t say I feel much like voting for them next time. Don’t have much of an alternative though, I refuse to vote Tory, and I fear that voting Lib Dem would make me die inside.

My Contribution to Slang

browning

slang expression for to appease, spin off from the phrase “brown tongue” stemming from Yiddish expression of “tuches licker”.

Originated following the decision of Great Britain in 2009 to dialogue with the Hamas terror group and Prime Minister George Brown’s decision to justify same.

“Did you read about it? England will be contacting the Hamas political wing but all they’re doing is browning.”

by Shiloni on Mar 13, 2009

tags: appeasement, kowtowing,brown tongue, forehead smacking, cringing, obsequious

There are several facebook groups supporting this terrorist, but not a single one calling for him to be banned from the UK.

What we need, badly, is a broad based and grass roots anti-fascist campaign that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

“barad – sense of proportion please: there is a difference between doing an attlee being a hitler.
labour have done an attlee here and it’s deplorable. at the same time they’ve sent troops against the baathists and the taleban – so it’s not total appeasement this time. you’re not seriously suggesting that labour are nazis?”

No I am not. I am gazing into my crystal ball to see possible outcomes, which I hope turns out to be faulty.

Toytn bankes, David T. Politicians are flibbertigibbets. Lets try talking to terrorists – oh no that didn’t work. Lets try not talking to terrorists – oh no that didn’t work. Lets try talking to terrorists … etc ad inf

The only hope is that the plan is to learn what we can from this bastard by letting him speak in order to fight him better.

DavidT

“What we need, badly, is a broad based and grass roots anti-fascist campaign that cannot be ignored or dismissed.”

What about “Right Not Racist” ?

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/03/10/anti-racism-from-the-right/

http://rightnotracist.org/

First event: Demo at SOAS against Moussawi

“broad based”

MarcusD: Without knowing how reliable your source is, it is not possible to evaluate the statement about Louis Ellman. However, it was reported in the press, JCI think, that Chief Rabbi Sachs also declined to sign, on the grounds that he didn’t have time to read it. (A 10 minute play). He is close to Gordon Brown, but I don’t think that can be relevant, can it?

Labour is out anyway so you might as well protest against their Hamas-arselicking and vote Conservative

Ami

Sacks will do nothing to reduce his chance of a peerage

DavidT: Unless and until such a broad based campaign can be formed, are you now of the view that any other kind of demonstration would be counterproductive? You were previously advocating doing something at SOAS without such caveats. I still think it is worth displaying placards and handing out leaflets with salient quotes from Moussawi just so as participants cannot pretend they do not know about them, and can then be judged on terms that they proceed on the basis of regarding such statements as irrelevant to them.

DavidT: “broadbased”

Yes but Labour is no longer ‘broadbased’ so by default ‘RightNotRacist’ will be. By actions such as admitting Moussawi, Labour is self-declaring itself as the Party of Hamas and the SWP. Just like Livingstone did in London. The silent majority is now with Cameron.

The silent majority is now with Cameron. Sorry. Thinking of myself as With Cameron still makes me shudder. Can’t do it, at least not while Cameron is still in charge.

Not even the whole of the Tory party is with Cameron.

This is not a battle that can be fought or won on sectarian lines: religious or political.

I don’t think it’s fair to harangue DavidT about his vote.

I wasn’t ‘haranguing’ him. He volunteered the fact. Given his comments in recent days, this strikes me as bizarre.

DavidT

I was, for many years, an active member of the New Democratic Party of Canada, and, like Brian Henry, who occassionally contributes over at Engage, gave up my membership a while ago when the NDP started to be taken over by “anti-Zionists”, as did former NDP premier of Ontario, Bob Rae, who is, once again, a front-bench MP for the Liberal Party of Canada.

After his term as Ontario premier, Rae — whose paternal grandfather was a Scottish Jew and whose wife is Jewish — wrote a book titled, “The Three Questions”, which was inspired by Rabbi Hillel’s three questions, which go something like this:

If I be not for myself, who be I for?

If I be not for others, who be I?

If not now, when?

As long as you park your vote with Labour, they won’t change. If you can’t bear to vote Tory, Lib-Dem or Green, then turn up at all-candidates’ meetings and put the Labour candidate’s feet to the fire and if you don’t like the answer, on election day, refuse your ballot.

Every government will do SOMETHING during its years in power that its supporters will disapprove of.

That would be David the lawyer addressing the jury in his summing up, right? ;-)

Sorry, this is totally ducking the issue. We are not talking about a minor point here, whether basic income tax should be 10% or 11%. We are talking about a complete betrayal of democracy. Peaceful and law-abiding people get libelled and harassed (as Nick correctly says about Wilders), whilst genocide- and antisemitism-promoting gangsters are treated with kid gloves.

On the subject of Wilders, I received this email from Vince Cable:

This is a complicated issue with potentially great repercussions. The difficulty is in getting the balance right between freedom of speech and incitement to racial hatred.

In this instance I believe the Home Office interfered where they should not have, especially in the fact that this man is an MP from an EU state and one of our historically closest allies. Freedom of speech is a great tenet of our society and one that we must strive to protect.

it was reported in the press, JCI think, that Chief Rabbi Sachs also declined to sign, on the grounds that he didn’t have time to read it. (A 10 minute play). He is close to Gordon Brown, but I don’t think that can be relevant, can it?

I am surprised about Elman refusing to sign, though, if this is true.

btw: does anybody know why soas needs him as a speaker on that conference? does he have a research paper in the pipeline ?

Keep the Aspidistra Flying.

Of course.

I am a Labour Party member, and supporter.

Honestly.

I used to do volunteer work during elections for Canada’s NDP.

And now I wouldn’t give them the time of day.

Sachs is an intellectual and moral coward. No surprise there.

Damn right, what a prick. In future, if anyone asks me who represents me as a British Jew, I will say Maureen Lipman.

matzvar
13 March 2009, 12:33 pm

btw: does anybody know why soas needs him as a speaker on that conference? does he have a research paper in the pipeline ?

The SOAS need him as a speaker to ensure that there’s no room on the agenda for people who don’t spew the right position on I/P. That’s enough these days, isn’t it?

this kind of appeasment by the UK is the source of most of the problems in the world (WW2 mainly). Sad to see history repeating itself.

I watched Up the Junction – featuring a very young and utterly gorgeous Maureen Lipman – recently.

Buy it from Amazon today.

What we need, badly, is a broad based and grass roots anti-fascist campaign that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

hmmm, a campaign that can not be ignored? Why not proven Hamas and Hezbollah tactics, car bomb a few buildings and you’ll have Brown’s Labour Government pandering to your every whim, nuancing your politics and terror to help you achieve your ends.

I am genuinely very surprised by this. That the matter was discussed at Cabinet level, and that only Hazel Blears took the correct (and properly Labour) line on it. I simply don’t understand it. Yet again, however, some of the commentary on this thread has blown the matter out of all proportion. The Labour Party is not engaged – consciously or otherwise – in a terrible plot to destroy our society.

The general character of the party is very important and this is not the only issue, as David T says. I entirely understand his feelings on this matter and indeed feel similarly myself. But, to answer someone above, tax rates and benefit levels and the like actually are pretty damn important and are a core issue to do with the nature of the kind of society we live in – much more so, actually, than the very unfortunate letting in of Moussawi. Much as I feel a very strong sense of dismay about this issue, and I know others do too, this is not a reason to abandon your entire political philosophy and outlook and vote Tory.

For those on the right who have no sympathy with Labour in the first place, then obviously it is very easy and it doesn’t matter to score points on this issue and paint Labour in a worse light than it really is – “Labour is self-declaring itself as the Party of Hamas and the SWP”. What nonsense.

For those of us who have sympathies with the left, the answer is not to decide to vote Tory over one issue like this. Isn’t that the same sort of self-indulgence that some of us would accuse those who have refused to vote Labour because of tuition fees or privatisation or Iraq of engaging in?

And that is another matter. This party has taken our country to war to defend democratic principles four times in the last decade – in Sierra Leone, in Kosovo, in Afghanistan and in Iraq. These are not the actions of a party of appeasers. These are the actions of a party committed to internationalism and to the rights of man.

Yes, this is bad, but, please, look at the bigger picture. This country, and the wider world, is a better, happier, more tolerant and democratic place than it was a decade ago because of the Labour Party. People’s real rights and capacities to live their lives in a manner that they wish, free from fear and arbitrary restriction, are much improved – whether they be an Afghani school girl, a gay teacher or a contract cleaner. Don’t repudiate that legacy over a mistake, however awful.

Sorry for the rambling.

if anyone asks me who represents me as a British Jew, I will say Maureen Lipman. Good choice bissli, better than the Chicken Rabbit (what he was dubbed by some Jewish Orthodox feminists after being sold out by him in the 80s) When is the facebook page going up?

“who proudly banned Wilders” – and who were shamefully supported in that by David T and Neil D.

I’m not really interested in this discussion any more. It’s quite clear that if the Government won’t stand up for a democrat under sentence of death from followers of Islam – for fear of civil unrest as promised by a senior figure in the UK Muslim community – then there is no hope. We also know that mass immigration is continuing despite the recession.

It appears the Government surrendered in their hearts a long time ago.

As for Blears, I expect it’s all about positioning in relation to Harriet Gordon-Slayer.

I am a Labour Party member, and supporter.

*guffaw*

Look, if your local Labour MP is sufficietly anti-dhimmitudinal. fine.

But you are voting for *more* of this sort of stuff. That is all your vote means.

Islamism and anti-Semitism pay quite nicely apparently:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23661320-details/article.do?ito=newsnow&

Ibrahim Mousawi is an extremist and must not be allowed into Britain

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=68737617237

“…. and on the horizon I can see someone in shining armour who I believe is an Americn-based contributor to Harry’s Place. Yes, its Gene and behind him is the US Sixth Fleet and several brigades of American Troops – all on their way to rescue Great Britain from the World’s greatest hostage-taking event by Islamist Extremists. The Whole of the UK Government. The beachead battle is set to be Anjem Choudry’s Hoodie Army ……….”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1070934.html

“Report: U.S. slams renewed ties between Britain and Hezbollah “

“This country, and the wider world, is a better, happier, more tolerant and democratic place than it was a decade ago because of the Labour Party. People’s real rights and capacities to live their lives in a manner that they wish, free from fear and arbitrary restriction, are much improved – whether they be an Afghani school girl, a gay teacher or a contract cleaner.”

You are joking aren’t you? Yes gay rights have improved (about the only good legacy of this government) but otherwise we are a controlled, nannied, watched, monitored and interfered-with society in the UK like never before, with eroded legal rights to boot. There is no detail of peoples’ lives too small to concern the Labour Party. There is justifiably widespread distrust of any authority or system of government or economic system.

The World is on the point of economic collapse, with possible conflicts involving a resurgent Russia, assertive China, disillusioned Central Europe and Baltics, Pakistan about to fall to soon-to-be nuclear armed Islamists, Iran about to gain nuclear weapons, tinderbox ME dominated by dicators and monarchies that the UK supports, many of whom will sooner or later be replaced by one-time elected Islamists and the whole issue of conflict with Muslims in the West.

This is by no means all the fault of the Labour government but your Panglossian nonsense is surreal.

But, to answer someone above, tax rates and benefit levels and the like actually are pretty damn important and are a core issue to do with the nature of the kind of society we live in

Which is, of course, why the 10% band was retained …

much more so, actually, than the very unfortunate letting in of Moussawi.

Special pleading par excellence. Anything you perceive (wrongly, in my view) that the government got right, is important. Those bits it had got wrong, are unimportant.
Moussavi is an indicator: an indicator of whether this government is basically on the side of anti-racism and democracy, or racism and thuggery. I think the answer is pretty clear.
This is also indicative of the corruption of the moral and political thinking in this country after 12 years of ‘Labour’, that the position of a ‘Labour’ government on racism is deemed unimportant by its supporters.

This country, and the wider world, is a better, happier, more tolerant and democratic place than it was a decade ago because of the Labour Party.

Complete Fantasy Planet.

That comment was aimed at Ben by the way.

Well I cant be a hypocrite, I was for letting Wilders in, and i’m for letting this little git in to.Simply a freedom of speech issue.
I would like to see him filmed though and be the lead item on the 10oclock News. Let’s let the good ‘ol general public have a butchers at him, then the oxygen of publicity can do it’s work.

Added this:

In the United State, Obama’s team is briefing against the British Government.

A senior official in the Obama administration said the United States disagrees with Britain’s decision to renew contact with the Lebanon-based militant group Hezbollah.

…

The official also said that the U.S. would like Britain to explain “the difference between the political, social and military wings of Hezbollah because we don’t see the difference between the integrated leadership that they see.”

From Lebanon, there has been strong opposition from the World Council of the Cedars Revolution:

We have an enormous respect for Great Britain’s continued support for the protection and preservation of democracies such as that of Lebanon. However, we are extremely concerned at your recent announcement that you are considering or have decided to open dialogue with the very terrorist militia which has caused untold damage to the lives of many Lebanese over decades and to innocent people in many spots around the world, including in Iraq and Argentina.

Are you aware of the pain and suffering this decision has already caused and will continue to cause to millions of people simply by announcing the possibility of opening dialogue with that terrorist militia Hezbollah?
Can you imagine the hurt, the despair and the feeling of betrayal by the families of over thousands of victims who were killed in the defense of their sovereignty, independence and democratic freedoms at the hands of Hezbollah’s evil sponsors the Syrian and Iranian regimes in Lebanon? Already Hezbollah tramples upon their memory, their graves and their legitimate right to honorable recognition of their martyrdom.

I know exactly how they must feel.

Yet again, however, some of the commentary on this thread has blown the matter out of all proportion.

We are only trying to prevent some of us being blow up out of all proportion.

Speak out against Islamic Terrorism and antisemitism – get banned!

Speak FOR Islamic Terrorism and antisemitism – get invited!

Threaten to bring “10,000 Muslims” in protest – capitulation!

Protestors threaten breach of the peace and public disorder – so arrest the people who were incited by the public disorder.

Want to march with a British/English flag – “put it away – its inciting”

Protest with racist and “Kill banners” – leave them alone or it will cause community trouble.

Want to preach christianity and drop leaflets in a Muslim area – “go away or I will arrest you for incitement”.

Want to eat your regular lunch “Eat somewhere else, its Ramadan” (Local Council story)

There gets to a point where we are being kicked sideways and told we are bad because of a tiny minority of a tiny minority – the Islamist extremists and those who keep asserting THEIR Human Rights and sod Your Human rights.

Its a Labour Government who have presided over this and I hope a Tory landslide will teach them a lesson.

What was the famous line in “Broadcast News”? “I’m as mad as hell and I ain’t taking it any more”!

Barad.

I think a proper conception of liberty takes into account lack of govt-sponsored victimisation because of sexuality. The fact that you can no longer be paid £1.50 an hour on a zero hour contract because some Tory filth thought it would damage “flexibility” to introduce protections. The fact that the least well off have greater dignity and stability through work-based tax credits. Any analysis of liberty based on a positive rather than negative conception (which any non-libertarian buffoon ought to be able to support) would show that people’s lives are freer and better now. Here and in the countries I mention.

Of course, the economy is tanking and security issues abound. But that wasn’t what I said, was it? I fail to see anything Panglossian in what I wrote at all.

The point is that people are in danger of losing perspective if one (very bad) mistake like this is leading them to reconsider their voting allegiances.

Please could someone update on who are Right Not Racist, and why they might not be broad-based?

Personally, if Moussawi’s coming, I don’t think it’s very important which group organises a protest against his racism – so long as there is one.

Graham, any thoughts based on your ANL experience?

Dan S

If you get to read this, can you please do me a favour and ask Clegg about his party’s Conference item/vote which I believe condemned Israel? I haven’t had time to check this out, I admit, but I think it is with regard to its borders and the entry of aid.

I’d love to know if the party also condemned Egypt for the same thing. And whether they bothered to consider Darfur, Congo, Sri Lanka – and so on. Or how often they give Conference time to condeming other nations. I’m not being sarcastic here, I’d truly like to know.

I was appalled by Nick’s response to the Israeli/Gaza conflict which went along the lines of “We must have a ceasefire because this will just create more suicide bombers”.

As if they need the excuse of a war.

Nick really needs to get a little bone in his back.

You can all see that the Islamists can do what they like, and we dare not stand against them. We banned Wilders so that you would watch his film. We released Ahmed so that you would know that the law is powerless against him. We protect the Islamist “anti-war protesters” and arrest you if you bother them. We gave a visa to Moussawi so that you know that we hate Jews too.

We are sending you a message: tickle our bellies and we will gurgle and coo.

In the United State, Obama’s team is briefing against the British Government.

In this respect they are right to do so. Hezbollah have threatened to attack the USA & Israel. I guess since they haven’t threatened the UK then they feel comfortable.

I just can’t help imagining Milliband thinking “If it fucks Israel then I’ll do it. I’ll show them that just because I’m a Jew I don’t have to make pro-Israel, pro-Jewish decisions – so I’ll do the opposite”

How can Milliband sit in cabinet, be told he’s a “lesion” because he’s a Jew and NOT make anything of it?

Obama doesn’t love Brown as much as Bush & Blair got it on!

N.O.

The removal of the 10 pence tax band was a mistake. This does not distract from the fact that tax and benefits policy has been boradly redistributive since 1997.

“the position of a ‘Labour’ government on racism is deemed unimportant by its supporters”

That is a complete misrepresentation of my position, as you well know.

“Speak FOR Islamic Terrorism and antisemitism – get invited!”

Parity – the government did not invite Moussawi. Some batshit Islamist scum and their fellow-travellers at SOAS did that.

If the government is speaking to Hezbollah, then that is clearly a dreadful mistake. One imagines that it is the Foreign Office being their usual Arabist selves. Terrible news, I agree.

Sorry if this has already been posted, but did have you seen this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1161754/Exclusive-Islamic-fanatic-Ibrahim-Moussawi-barred-entering-Britain.html

Sighs of relief all round?

What we need, badly, is a broad based and grass roots anti-fascist campaign that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

If you want that,you clearly should be doing something rather violent and then promise more of the same!

A senior official in the Obama administration said the United States disagrees with Britain’s decision to renew contact with the Lebanon-based militant group Hezbollah.

The official also said that the U.S. would like Britain to explain “the difference between the political, social and military wings of Hezbollah because we don’t see the difference between the integrated leadership that they see.”

May I just speak on behalf of all those Britons who would like to tell Hussein Obama and his gang of hypocrites to just FUCK OFF!!!

Could he and his fellow hypocrites please explain what the difference is between belonging to a racist, separatist non-Christian church and the KKK?

Phew! Don’t have to cut up my Labour Party membership card..

I can’t believe I fell for Pollard’s bullshit. I really should know better by now.

We are sending you a message: tickle our bellies and we will gurgle and coo.

Conspiracy theory on New World Order says that you make counter-intuitive decisions that actually create the divisiveness which allows you to assert military control.

If you step back and evaluate what is happening we see that a tiny minority of the UK (2% Muslims) occupies a lot of media attention and discussion. We realise that its a tiny number of Muslims who operate in the Islamist Extremist spectrum who are pushing this.

Someone explain to me why this is allowed to happen? (I find it best to characterise this with a swear-word – it seems to convey it better – apologies)

After 7/7 why didn’t we say “Fuck you lot! If you think for one minute we are going to tolerate being bombed because you don’t like our foreign policy then we will we calling up the reservists and we are coming after you.”

Blair should have told the “moderate leaders” “You start delivering the radicals to us or your funding gets cut. I don’t give a shit whether you say its a perversion of Islam or not. People are dead and I haven’t got time for arguing religous philosophy while others get killed”.

When the cartoon protestors started with their “Kill” posters the police should have gone in mob-handed and arrested the lot. Why didn’t they?

My point is this, why do we seem to be standing by and doing nothing? Why? What is the grip on the Government or what is the plan?

Is it to actually help foment a society breakdown? Is it to deflect from an economic crisis?

There really isn’t a sensible and positive Government policy that I can see that solves these problems. The “libersals” say “If we do something then we will make it worse.” and yet who sees it getting better???

I’d like to try “worse” for a time to see if it gets better. Maybe its a polarity response World we are living in.

Sorry for being so nakedly agressive. I KNOW its not the fault of the vast majority of Muslims who have been hijacked by the Islamists. But we have to fight back with legitimate means and that means Governments can make laws to deal with it.

Obama’s church doesn’t lynch people or firebomb schools or do any of that kind of thing, does it.

I can’t believe I fell for Pollard’s bullshit. I really should know better by now.

It may not have been bullshit, it was published yesterday. Things may have changed since then. His article may have even got the ball rolling..

Graham, any thoughts based on your ANL experience?

Well that was all a long time ago and the world has changed a lot since!

I’m glad Moussawi isn’t coming. Even though people were right to point out that he was coming as an “academic” rather than a Hizbullah rep, I would have hoped that there would have been some kind of demo had he been let in and I welcome “right not racism” as a useful ally.

“I think a proper conception of liberty takes into account lack of govt-sponsored victimisation because of sexuality. The fact that you can no longer be paid £1.50 an hour on a zero hour contract because some Tory filth thought it would damage “flexibility” to introduce protections. The fact that the least well off have greater dignity and stability through work-based tax credits.”

This is just tinkering-irrelevant if you lose your job due Brown’s incompetence and he is ultimately at the heart of it all.

“people’s lives are freer and better now. Here and in the countries I mention.”

Ben, I could not agree less. I see you fail to address the massive surveillance, loss of legal protections and interference in the lives of British people that I mentioned. And mass immigration to no economic benefit (see the Lords report) and unrequired social division, not to mention undercutting British workers (ok you get a cheap Polish cleaner so there is a benefit of sorts!) And the Lisbon Treaty without referendum and other surrenders to undemocratic Europe. And a massive culture of benefit dependency. Unimproved/barely improved schools and hospitals despite an ocean of public spending…

Don’t you worry about it though because shouting “Tories are filth” will deal with all that. I am not a huge fan of Cameron but your “argument” is just sloganeeering and a pretence that Labour have achieved something in the last decade when they really have not.

Since you mention the notional Afghan schoolgirl, you must be aware of the hopeless failure of backing an Islamist Afghan government which includes many people with views barely distinguishable from the Taleban or who have been allied to them for years. We actually have an ally that believes in the supremacy of Sharia and specifically in the last year the execution of apostates. Well done TB & GB-job done!

The official also said that the U.S. would like Britain to explain “the difference between the political, social and military wings of Hezbollah because we don’t see the difference between the integrated leadership that they see.”

This is utter shite. As if there has been ‘no’ contact between the US and Hezbollah or even the UK and Hezbollah since Hariri’s assassination and before. Utter, utter shite. Obama and co and his bunch of clowns can just fuck off. When Clinton doesn’t know where parliamentary democracy began and her husband doesn’t know that an embryo is a fertilised egg…they can just fuck off!!

It may not have been bullshit, it was published yesterday. Things may have changed since then. His article may have even got the ball rolling.

Oh, come off it. Hazel Blears as the lone voice of sanity? This was about political positioning ahead of the next leadership election.

Thanks Graham – hats off to you by the way for your work with the ANL!

Thanks Graham – hats off to you by the way for your work with the ANL!

It wasn’t just the JC that reporrted it, it was the Jerusalem Post and the stories were sourced separately. And the JC did not say a decision had been reached, just that Blears was in a minority of one.

I guess we will never know who swung it, maybe Gordon Brown.

It wasn’t just the JC that reporrted it, it was the Jerusalem Post and the stories were sourced separately.

Have you got a link to the JP story, because I can’t seem to find it?

And the JC did not say a decision had been reached, just that Blears was in a minority of one.

And I’m calling bullshit on that.

I agree Barad…

and then there are crazy health and safety laws that stifle normal activity for fear of vague danger’ the prospect of ID cards, the political correctness that has gone overboard, the strangeness of laws that support the aggressor instead of the victim and the inability of teachers to teach because of them.

Oh look – Moussawi’s not coming after all!

All has turned out for the best in the best of all possible worlds! ;)

Yes, Labour are suddenly fine-forget how they fucked each and every one of us in many different ways over the last decade and will continue to do so, due to the long term effects of their mostly-calamitous policies for many, many years after they have been booted out.

The removal of the 10 pence tax band was a mistake. This does not distract from the fact that tax and benefits policy has been boradly redistributive since 1997.

Yup, special pleading again. Negative actions are ‘mistakes’. Positive actions are evidence of a giant intellect at work.
Sorry, most people can see through this at last. I have been calling Brown totally incompetent. Finally, the penny has dropped for the country as a whole.

“the position of a ‘Labour’ government on racism is deemed unimportant by its supporters”

That is a complete misrepresentation of my position, as you well know.

I know no such thing. Read your own post.

All has turned out for the best in the best of all possible worlds

In cloud-cuckoo land, maybe. This has had to be wrung out of a so-called ‘Labour’ government like pulling teeth.
Even when finally they do the right thing, they prove that they didn’t really want to do it, and instead of at least getting some political mileage out of it, they rightly end up looking like the complete incompetent tits they are. No political subtlety whatsoever. A bunch of thick goons.

I was extremely concerned about Moussawi being allowed into the country. I just wasn’t going to tear up my party card over it.

If you want to interpret that as soft-soaping the govt’s (non-existent) racism, then please do. But I would like to think you know that’s bollocks. I take racism extremely seriously.

You should also know that I am essentially keen to take a hard line on Islamists. But don’t let that factor in. Perhaps if I said I was goign to join the Tory Party that would show my true commitment to the anti-racist cause?

Another Penny -
The LibDems are and have been anti-Israel for years. Campbell was only just this side of spouting antisemitic lies on many occasions. That resolution was passed, as far as I know.

I can’t take seriously anyone who uses phrases like ’some Tory filth’ and can’t see the damage that ‘Labour’ has caused this country on every level for the last 12 years.

I can’t take seriously anyone who does not know that the Tories were happy to let Augusto Pinochet in, And that this man protected several high-up Nazis including the inventor of the gas vans.

Thanks MattGFanClub for the posting the link.

Well, if the story in the Daily Beast is right, the Labor govt has found it does indeed have something of a spine and does not completely grovel before threats from Muslim Extremists. Whether this is just a one time deal under tremendous pressure both domestic and foreign or whether Brown & Co will continue to act as if they collectively have a spine is what will have to be watched for next.

BTW: Network, not Broadcast News, is the movie where the mad anchorman Howard Beale (Peter Finch) proclaims “I’m Mad as Hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!”

Uh huh. And I can’t take seriously somebody who doesn’t think that paying people £1.50 an hour and forcing them to hang around unpaid for several hours on zero hour contracts is not utterly morally reprehensible, and that the people obstructing doing something about it are not filth.

So I guess that leaves us at an impasse. I thought you said you were left wing? You show very little indication of it.

I don’t really feel the need to be taken seriously by you in any case, NO. Palpably few people do you, so I suppose in a way you not agreeing with me is something of a back-handed compliment.

Miaow.

Oh dear. A double negative. How faintly distressing.

Obama’s church doesn’t lynch people or firebomb schools or do any of that kind of thing, does it.

You mean lynching Jews and firebombing Jewish schools? Only because they couldn’t get away with it. Trinity United Church is notoriously anti-semitic and anti-Israel.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/03/trinity-church-and-hamas-no-complaints.html

Gregg, the JPost article appears to have vanished from the website, but you can see that it definitely did exist when you google for its title http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=UK+approves+visit+of+Hizbullah+official&btnG=Search&meta=

Turkish Weekly seems to still have a copy on their site http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/66785/-uk-approves-visit-of-hizbullah-official.html

Hossein:

Apparently Hilary’s (purgeror) husband think that fellatio could be considered a form of “sex”, or, more exactly that as the passive party to the act, that he “had “sex with that woman”.

Gregg, the JPost article appears to have vanished from the website, but you can see that it definitely did exist

Oh, I know it did exist, bissli – I remember reading it when HP linked. I was just curious as to why I can’t find it now. When a story simply and suddenly vanishes from a newspaper’s website, it’s a good indication that it was bullshit.

I think this is largely down to Douglas Murray’s posturing creating the false impression that the government had taken some kind of decision it hadn’t. The Telegraph reported on March 7th that Murray was demanding to know why the government hadn’t refused Moussawi’s visa when (according the Telegraph) he hadn’t even applied for one yet. Murray’s line got picked up by the blogs, credulously echo chambered around as this self-aggrandising crap always is now, and I suspect that gave us the JP article.

Tory filth

Haah… do you also call the radio a ‘wireless’?

I’d swap a thousand such bans for one simple Act of Parliament saying:

“Shariah Islamic Law shall have no jurisdiction in the territory of the United Kingdom and any person pretending otherwise shall be guilty of an offence punishable by a fine or term of imprisonment as described in Schedule 1 to this Act.”

Likelihood of any such Act ever being promulgated by this Government (or indeed a Tory or LibDem govt): Zero.

I can’t take seriously anyone who does not know that the Tories were happy to let Augusto Pinochet in

I can’t take seriously a failed logic student who doesn’t know that we are talking now about THIS government, and that what some other government did 20 years ago (which may well have been wrong) bears nil relevance to what THIS government is doing now.

So I guess that leaves us at an impasse. I thought you said you were left wing? You show very little indication of it.

Really? I am in favour of more wealth redistribution, e.g. I was against the stupidity of abolishing the 10% rate. And I am in favour of a much higher rate on incomes above (e.g.) 150k.
I guess that make me a filthy Tory.
What I object to, which perhaps you are incapable of grasping, is that your political language and position are palpably fuelled by personal hatred, including the language of hate you use against me.

I don’t really feel the need to be taken seriously by you in any case, NO. Palpably few people do (you???)

A classic argument from a desperate argument loser.
The ones who take me seriously here, count among them some of the very best posters. I am happy to see you in the company of KR and his pals, where you belong.

Wasn’t it 1998 when Pinochet visited Britain, when Jack Straw was Home Secretary?

Wardy, yes, indeed. October or November I think. Almost exactly the same time that Ron Davies was forced to resign after being attacked by a man he met in a park who invited him back to his place for dinner. ( I was working in Poland at the time and admired the discretion of the BBC World Service in not naming the park; had they done so everything would have become clear immediately)

In Matthew Parris’s autobiography he says that when he worked at Conservative Central Office before becoming an MP he used to go cruising on Clapham Common, lived in a flat in Gayville Road and his office was on Old Queen Street.

The ones who take me seriously here, count among them some of the very best posters.

Arguably the greatest thing I’ve ever read

Ahhh, Pinochet being arrested. Those were the days. I remember when he was eventually freed due to ill health some loons from the University Conservative Association burst into the student union council holding aloft copies of the Daily Mail with Pinochet on the front page and goosestepped their way around the chamber shouting “Viva Pinochet” and giving Nazi salutes. Charming young gentlemen.

“What I object to, which perhaps you are incapable of grasping, is that your political language and position are palpably fuelled by personal hatred, including the language of hate you use against me.”

Oh noes! I’m bullying Nearly! Come off it, NO. You’re no wallflower yourself. I am certainly curmedgeonly about right-wing Tories, hippies and crusty Trots, that’s for sure.

I’m sorry – you’re not a victim and my politics are certainly not fuelled by hate (I have a certain degree of contempt for some perspectives, I grant you, but that is hardly the same thing). Now let’s get back to the real world.

The reason you don’t come across as left wing is because you spend your entire time attacking the government and going over the top on Islam (these views are generally expressed from the right!). I’m not questioning your bona fides, but I doubt I am the only one who was surprised to find that you were left wing on economic policy. Fair dos though.

I have no interest in deciding who has bigger friends in the playground. It is nonethless the case that I agree with pretty much the whole Blairite/”Decent” agenda. So if you can’t take my views seriously, I guess the blog don’t appeal so much either.

I thought the Government acted impeccably throughout the Pinochet hoo-hah, by resisting all calls to intervene in it.

tevya you wrote:

“Please could someone update on who are Right Not Racist, and why they might not be broad-based?”

they are seemingly a bunch of Cameronite Tories, trying to distance themselves from the “Nasty Party” image of old

not very broadbased, at all.

I can’t take seriously a failed logic student who doesn’t know that we are talking now about THIS government, and that what some other government did 20 years ago (which may well have been wrong) bears nil relevance to what THIS government is doing now.

I see. So sucking up to the protectors of nazi mass murderers is OK as long as it was 20 years ago?

Your moral compass is fucked and you are flailing wildly in a morass of batshit.

Pinochet made twice-yearly visits to Mrs Thatcher long before Jack Straw got anywhere near power. Then he went back to Chile to tell all the nazi war criminals that he protected about what a nice lady she was.

But Pinochet was obviously not a Nazi, and calling him one makes you sound bonkers. He was President for 16 years, during which time 3,000 people were killed. The Nazis managed quite a bit more than 200 a year.

I didn’t call Pinochet a nazi. I said quite clearly that he protected real nazis including the real nazi who invented the poison gas vans.

You can’t call people bonkers because you are unable to read properly.

Mrs Thatcher sucked up to this protector of nazi mass murderers and had him round for tea. The only reason Cameron won’t be able to do the same is that most nazis have now expired.

What I object to, which perhaps you are incapable of grasping, is that your political language and position are palpably fuelled by personal hatred, including the language of hate you use against me.

This comes from someone who has just called the government: “A bunch of thick goons.”

Was not Pinochet, Britain’s ally during the Falklands War?
Persume that is what Thatcher was refering to when she called him Britain’s friend.

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about Faintly – don’t you know NO is taken seriously by some of the very best posters? You are in deep do-do

The people Nearly O thinks are the very best posters are actually all thick goons.

Just don’t ask him if he has read any Hobsbawm yet – he gets very touchy about it!

I said quite clearly that he protected real nazis including the real nazi who invented the poison gas vans

Actually you weren’t clear at all. You said “sucking up to the protectors of nazi mass murderers is OK as long as it was 20 years ago?”, which could very easily be interpreted, as I interpreted it, as meaning that the protectors were the Conservative Party, and the Nazi mass murderer was Pinochet.

Also, and much more importantly, you’re a git, and verging on hysterical.

How bloody dare you you anti-Semitic, Al Beeb-loving, Islamo-fascist, anti-white, feminist racist

That was to Faintly BTW way

Actually you weren’t clear at all. You said “sucking up to the protectors of nazi mass murderers is OK as long as it was 20 years ago?”, which could very easily be interpreted, as I interpreted it, as meaning that the protectors were the Conservative Party, and the Nazi mass murderer was Pinochet.

You obviously did not read my comment at 3.49 PM before unleashing your lazy verbal confusion on the commentariat . But thank you for the comment on how hysterical I am. I take it as a great compliment.

By the way way?

What sort of comment is that?

Is this the right place to say how much I am looking forward to the party when Thatcher dies?

FYI information, it was a truthful one

Ponse (sic)

Is this the right place to say how much I am looking forward to the party when Thatcher dies?

So long as Ven’s not reading, you should be fine.

Ven is always reading. He’s like Big Brother (in a mitre.)

But Pinochet was obviously not a Nazi, and calling him one makes you sound bonkers. He was President for 16 years, during which time 3,000 people were killed. The Nazis managed quite a bit more than 200 a year.

Actually you know many nazis never killed anyone at all. Hitler’s secretaries for example were still nazis but never once so much as blew up a tank. It didn’t help them in the long run however.

Yes, but Supertramp are better than Stiff Little Fingers.

That is exactly what Pinochet thought. He wrote in his “memoirs” (1973 available in paperback) that he: “used his position as Commander-in-chief of the Army to coordinate a far-reaching scheme with the other two branches of the military and the national police to get “Take the Long Way Home” recognised throughout the world as a prime example of pomp rock; and that anyone who so much as played the opening chords to “Alternative Ulster” would be shot on sight.

You right-wingers are all the same, If you are not shooting communists you are listening to people like Rick Wakeman.

Disgusting.

Isn’t Pinochet writing his memoirs as early as 1973 like Wayne Rooney, former striker for 3rd division outfit Everton, writing an autobiography aged 19?

You may be onto something as there is of course a famous Chilean football team called Everton….

Pinochet was 58 in 1973! He had already been a commander of a concentration camp for Communists and a senior army commander and had overthrown the socialist leader of a South American democracy.

That is a bit more than just scoring a passably good goal against Arsenal you neo-zionist revisionist pantie-wetting flunkey fellow traveller with nobs on your ears!

Is this the right place to say how much I am looking forward to the party when Thatcher dies?

It’s always the wrong time to reveal your stupidity and lack of common decency.

… and place.

This comes from someone who has just called the government: “A bunch of thick goons.”

Learn to read and join the dots without someone holding your hand. I didn’t call another poster a thick goon (although that seems quite accurate for you, so perhaps you do need the hand-holding). I didn’t call Labour supporters qua Labour supporters ‘filth’. I criticised the government of the day, for reasons that are clear enough to anyone who reads my posts and has more than 37 brain cells.

It’s always the wrong time to reveal your stupidity and lack of common decency

Here here! Another great post NO!

So sucking up to the protectors of nazi mass murderers is OK as long as it was 20 years ago?

You really are completely devoid of the slightest grasp of logic, aren’t you? I never said it’s OK. I said that it’s irrelevant (look it up) to a discussion of what the government is doing now.

Ben, you flatter yourself mightily if you think that I consider myself a ‘victim’ of your ‘bullying’. Maybe if you came around with your big brother and a squad of your mates …

I was simply pointing out your use of ‘filth’ as a cheap label for Tories. I bet you still have a car sticker that says “I support the miners. Thatcher out!”. Such hatred for a party that’s been out of power for 12 years, when the party in power has spent those years fucking up this country and is still blaming Thatcher, is pathetic.

The reason you don’t come across as left wing is because you spend your entire time attacking the government and going over the top on Islam (these views are generally expressed from the right!).

What you consider ‘OTT’ happens to derive from a conviction that everyone should be treated as equal, and that threats have no place in a country that wants to be regarded as liberal and progressive. I make no apology for holding that conviction.

I criticise the government because I believe that it has sold out precisely those people who voted for it in the belief that it was left of centre. It is a government of sucking up to multimillionaires and selling them peerages. It is a government of sucking up to bullies and terrorists. It is a government of self-enriching, corrupt opportunists. That is why I hate it.

It’s always the wrong time to reveal your stupidity and lack of common decency.

Wise words (and lets hope you one-day take them and stop acting like a prick all the time.)

Learn to read and join the dots without someone holding your hand. I didn’t call another poster a thick goon

You complained about political language when you yourself had lowered the tone of the debate by calling people thick goons. You really are just a pointless hypocrite are you not? Good. I am glad we have settled that one. Now pull yourself together as you are becoming embarrasing. A mention of what previous governments have done is not “irrelevant” to a discussion about this one, In fact it throws light (light which you do not wish to be exposed to) on the actions of this government. Of course you want to rule any such talk offside so that you can reduce the discussion to the bits that you understand but the rest of us are long out of the common room.

Now shape up and stop being such an ignorant pillock then you might make an interesting point one day.

Such hatred for a party that’s been out of power for 12 years, when the party in power has spent those years fucking up this country and is still blaming Thatcher, is pathetic.

Didn’t Cameron do exactly this today?

What you consider ‘OTT’ happens to derive from a conviction that everyone should be treated as equal, and that threats have no place in a country that wants to be regarded as liberal and progressive

Maybe if you came around with your big brother and a squad of your mates …

he’s actually done it in the same post this time! Hilarious!

You two are really totally brainless wankers.

“Maybe if you came around with your big brother and a squad of your mates …”

Fuck off. Yes, because that’s the kind of politics I espouse. You stupid muppet.

I don’t want to be excessively unfair here, but you’ve just taken one hell of a beating, Nearly.

And the reason why is not because you’re the one true source of correctness, but rather because you are completely histrionic and wrong, and then, when you feel the heat, you accuse others of base motives and political savagery.

Bollocks.

Faintly, Insert Pompus and Graham have – rather amusingly and not unfairly – given you a taste of your own medicine.

I don’t have a problem with you (I think you’re a histrionic idiot who sometimes makes some good points), but I’d be a damn sight happier if you didn’t accuse others like me of political thuggery and victimisation.

The fact that the very idea is silly makes it sort of funny, but I suggest you think carefully before attacking people in an unfair and obviously wrong manner.

And just grow up generally. Stop being such a nutter.

I didn’t call another poster a thick goon (although that seems quite accurate for you, so perhaps you do need the hand-holding). I didn’t call Labour supporters qua Labour supporters ‘filth’. I criticised the government of the day

You two are really totally brainless wankers.

I think that’s Game over.

Can I just say that this thread has been priceless. I offer the participants a standing ovation for having made me chuckle out loud on several occasions.

‘Ven is always reading. He’s like Big Brother (in a mitre.)’

Hahahahahahahahahahaha….oh, I think I just peed a little bit

‘The ones who take me seriously here, count among them some of the very best posters’.

But whom are these mysterious vb posters? Are they like the final five, destined to walk amongst us, not knowing their true identity till circumstances or fate brings them to the realisation they take NO seriously? That must be a kidney punch

To be honest I think he means Morgoth.

Maybe he even believes that he isn’t a hypocrite – delusional types do.

My bets on JP, Maven, Fabian, SK and Ellen Tigh. Morgy might be a little ‘coarse’ for his tastes. But all harmless speculation or ruthless spit flecked bullying. Whichever floats yer boat

Labour’s policy seems to be to hang on grimly until direct rule from Brussels is introduced within the next two years. The Tories wouldn’t pull us out of the EU in any case. Europe’s strategy for cultural and physical survival is unity in the face of the common enemy, as history has proved, and the architecture for European superstate fascism is already in place, legislatively, technologically and militarily. The conditions at street level are close to intolerable throughout Holland, France, Belgium, Sweden, Germany and the UK and the veneer of governmental appeasement merely serves to build the fear and fury of the people, so that they will accept the actions that will have to be taken. The EU will, of course, cheerfully sacrifice Israel, as it has sacrificed Lebanon, Kenya and Kosovo, most likely as the force majeur event required for total victory, but also because the idea of the nation state, especially a Jewish one, is anathema to all empires. For these reasons, decent men and women must prepare themselves for an alternative scenario which will preserve the nations of Europe and the wider world and defeat the enemies of diversity once and for all.

David T. on Hizbollah -(main article)
‘killed Jews-not simply Israelis- all over the world’

Is that a statement of belief regarding the expendability of Israelis, David?
It rather sounds as though you EXPECT Israelis to be killed, but not Jews outside of Israel, and that the two categories are different in your view.
Rather too NIMBY for my liking I’m afraid, but I guess it’s always advantageous to know exactly where one stands…

Somebody asked about the Lib Dem conference motion. Yes, it did pass, and here is what it says.

Conference therefore calls:
1. On the UK Government to propose to the United Nations Security Council an international tribunal with powers to prosecute and compel the appearance of suspects and witnesses to investigate whether war crimes have been committed by Israel, Hamas and any other parties during Israel’s attack on Gaza, with the intention that there should be full accountability for any or all persons who ordered or executed such war crimes, including criminal penalties and the payment of reparations.
2. On all parties to agree a permanent ceasefire and an opening of the border crossings into Gaza, as the first step to negotiating a comprehensive and final peace settlement, with negotiations to take place on the basis of good faith, the principles of international law, all relevant UN Security Council Resolutions and reference to the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.
3. For a new initiative by the British Government to work with the European Union and the United States to provide assistance to all parties to prevent arms smuggling into Gaza.
4. For Britain and the European Union to make it clear to Israel that the existing EU-Israel Association Agreement will now be suspended if Israel does not urgently lift the blockade of Gaza, including of construction materials essential for rebuilding Gaza’s basic public infrastructure such as sewage and water works, schools and hospitals.

What was worse than the actual motion was the emotional manner that it was debated. Chris Davies was at his worst, and then there was the report we got later from him about it.

I was pleased that a motion calling for suspension of the EU-Israel
association agreement was passed by an overwhelming majority. “Enough is
enough,” I said in my speech. “The European Commission claims that our
close partnership with Israel gives us influence over policy. In fact
Israel ignores every word we speak. Time for words to be supported by
deeds.”

And this after Ed Davey had defended part 4 as merely to put pressure on the Israelis to end the horrible situation. It seems that Chris Davies must know that the pressure won’t work. Should I talk to Nick Clegg about this misrepresentation? Also so much for that all powerful LDFI Jewish Lobby, there were a half a dozen of us. It gave me a bit of rush thinking of the power he believes we hold. Any recommendations on who to vote for in the Northwest for the Euro election? I don’t suppose it’s possible to vote for Lib Dem, but not Chris Davies. With the BNP on ticket as well, we have no shortage of racists.