“Jewish-friendly” racists meet in US
The Southern Poverty Law Center’s Hatewatch blog reports on a “Preserving Western Civilization” Conference held in February near Baltimore:
Its aim: to defend “America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity.” But not much civilized was said there. Rather, the discussion centered around claims that blacks are not as intelligent as whites, immigrants are destroying America, and Islam is no religion of peace — it’s expansionist, intolerant, militant, and seeks to destroy.
The conference was convened by Jewish astrophysicist Michael Hart, author of the racist book Understanding Human History, which focuses on alleged differences in intelligence between various ethnic and racial groups. In the past, Hart was a regular at the biannual conferences put on by American Renaissance, a racist publication that wrote, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, that “[w]hen blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears.” Though few in number, Jewish academic racists were active in American Renaissance right from the start, welcomed by that group’s leader, Jared Taylor, who even once arranged for kosher meals.
However at a 2006 American Renaissance conference (attended by the BNP’s Nick Griffin, among others) there was an incident that blew the US white-racist movement wide open:
The conflict was triggered by former Klan boss and professional anti-Semite David Duke, who attacked Jews, telling the crowd, “There is a power in the world that dominates our media, influences our government and that has led to the internal destruction of our will and spirit.” Though Duke didn’t directly say Jews were that power, everyone in the crowd, which included several members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance, knew exactly who he meant, and many cried for more.
Hart couldn’t take it. He stood up and yelled at Duke, “You fucking Nazi, you’ve disgraced this meeting!” and stormed out. As many as 50 people at the conference then began to jeer and point at the rapidly disappearing Hart.
Hart and other Jewish academic racists left American Renaissance shortly thereafter, when Taylor declined to explicitly ban anti-Semites. But Hart was apparently not ready to give up public discussion of the superiority of the white race. Hence, “Preserving Western Civilization,” Hart’s Jewish-friendly replacement for the American Renaissance conference.
Judging from the accounts of the February conference at Hatewatch and Searchlight, anti-Muslim rhetoric– of the kind which too often infests our comments boxes– dominated the proceedings. But at least one speaker went beyond the usual ravings of even our most obnoxious and unwelcome commenters:
[J. Philippe] Rushton, the soft-spoken psychology professor at the University of Western Ontario and a leading figure among academic racists, went even further, contending that Islam was not just a cultural, but a genetic problem. According to Rushton, the Muslim problem is not just a condition of their particular belief system. Instead, he argued that Muslims have an aggressive personality with relatively closed, simple minds, and are less impervious to reason than one might expect.
Among the foreign guests at the conference was Patricia Richardson, a Jewish member of the BNP, who was elected in 2004 to a council seat in Essex.
When Richardson announced that she was from the BNP, cheers rang out. She ran through several news items to paint a picture of Muslim immigration as a demographic catastrophe. “If they’re not plotting and planning unrest, they’re planning how to get your money,” she noted.
The Anti-Defamation League has information on some of the conference participants. As the ADL noted, the conference’s focus on “America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity… set it apart from similar events that attract anti-Semites because they generally focus on European-American identity.”
Hatewatch reported:
The lowlight of the conference was a banquet on Saturday night featuring entertainment in the form of Jewish comedienne Julia Gorin, a self-proclaimed “conservative” joker who also writes for Jewish World Review. Gorin’s routine was filled with anti-Muslim and anti-Obama jokes, which were real crowd pleasers. To wit: “But you see, to a Jew there is no greater accomplishment than getting a black man into the White House. The thinking goes: ‘Our work is done. It’s OK if the Muslims come kill us now.’” In another skit, Gorin joked that Osama bin Laden was probably already dead — “from laughing his ass off.” Fittingly, many of Gorin’s jokes are featured in the Complete Idiot’s Guide to Jokes.
Ms. Gorin, fittingly, is on the advisory board of the American Council for Kosovo, which would be more properly called the American Council Against Kosovo– or at least the (largely secular-minded) Muslim majority thereof.
(Hat tip: modernity)
Comments
| 7 April 2009, 7:26 pm |
“You fucking Nazi, you’ve disgraced this meeting!”
If you don’t mind my saying so, what a fucking idiot. He went to a Nazi meeting, and then complained about Nazis being there.
To paraphrase the Istanbul Declaration: the position towards Richardson and Hart should be the same as towards Neturei Karta.
| 7 April 2009, 7:49 pm |
Fine.
But since there’s an Islamic sub text here, I will add a little pertaining to that subject.
I suggest that the ideology Mohammed invented (largely cobbled together from other religions and at one point inspired by his sexual activity with 9 year old Aisha: documented in the literature of the religion) would today be condemned in similar terms as is Nazism. Indeed, Nazism also had a quasi religious basis and a dislike of the Jews, as Mohammed clearly did when he massacred the Banu Qurayza tribe.
I think its time for such remarks to be considered, not for their provocative impact which I’m fully aware of, but for their veracity and its implicaitons.
| 7 April 2009, 7:50 pm |
and you might want to remind those neo-nazis that every day they are probably utilizing Israeli technology, in the form of the Orion algorithm on Google, which provides those marvellous search results that every one uses daily, hourly or every few minutes :)
| 7 April 2009, 7:54 pm |
This makes me ashamed to be a Jew and ashamed to be white. Never thought those two things could occur at the same time.
It is so interesting that a Jewish racist like Hart is apparently an “academic.” But no wonder that 5 out of 12 Nazi Party members present at the Wansee Conference held PhDs (no kidding, check it out yourself.) So perhaps academic credentials are not at all a sign of *understanding* but more than anything an excuse + an incitement.
This so-called “academic” should be fired. Of course, because of academic freedom he won’t be. Wish the Jews still had ex-communication as a tool. No racist like this *sshole Hart should be allowed to EVER call themselves “Jewish” in polite company again.
| 7 April 2009, 8:23 pm |
This makes me ashamed to be a Jew and ashamed to be white. Never thought those two things could occur at the same time.
Why? Those with bigoted minds that view everything through a melanin prism (more indicative of the left than the political right) want you to feel this; to be more conscious of your skin colour or ‘race’.
immigrants are destroying America
It should be made clear that people like the odious individuals above support genetic determinism, but, IMHO, cultural and environmental determinism as theories are just as hateful. We see both at work in Britain everyday, yet rarely do the people ever question their validity.
Objecting to immigration is not wrong in itself.
| 7 April 2009, 8:30 pm |
“Superiority” this “superiority” that.
The average lower intellectual ability of black people is an unfortunate scientific fact. It is also an amoral fact. It neither says that they should be carted off to sterilisation clinics or that they should be given affirmative action to compensate that they are less able to rise on merit through no fault of their own. That’s a moral question.
What this has to do with sub-Saharan African levels of economic development is hard to say.
| 7 April 2009, 8:42 pm |
It should be made clear that people like the odious individuals above support genetic determinism, but, IMHO, cultural and environmental determinism as theories are just as hateful. We see both at work in Britain everyday, yet rarely do the people ever question their validity.
Objecting to immigration is not wrong in itself.
Cultural conflict and ethnic disintegration of states happens. Immigration can produce that. Assimilation and harmony also happens. The danger comes when people base policy on ideology rather than rational thought. Both sides on this have irrationality involved in their views about immigration. That’s what’s the worry. However the irrational anti-immigration lot have their hands much further from the levers of power than the irrational pro-immigration lot.
Anybody who believes de facto (not so much interested in de jure flannel) either that immigration cannot be problematical or that it must be problematical is an idiot.
| 7 April 2009, 8:46 pm |
modernityblog
Unfortunately no it isn’t. Go ahead and ban me if you like for being a rational human being who refers to evidence.
Yeah sure I’m an evil racist, blah, blah, blah.
| 7 April 2009, 8:56 pm |
The average lower intellectual ability of black people is an unfortunate scientific fact.
I hate to join a debate about race and intelligence in case I get misunderstood.
What is IQ? What is intelligence? In the West we measure it by the ability to solve problems.
What is genius? Was not Pele the World’s greatestest footballer, a Black Brazilian. He was a genius of athleticism and spatial awareness. What about the field of track athletics. Are they dominated by White people because (supposedly) White people are smarter than Black people. Well, is the intelligence that designs a micro-chip the same genius that makes you co-ordinate bone, sinew and muscle to be faster and better?
I happen to believe that racial groups develop different superiorities. Eskimo’s don’t need to know how to make baskets out of plants and the forest tribes of Africa don’t need to know how to use the Internet.
We can ONLY judge superiority/inferiority as a relative ability and potential given many different environments and situations.
The person who judges Black people as inferior is a racist because they don’t state their boundaries and arenas for making that judgement. The USA shows quite clearly that when Black people are given their opportunities in all arenas of endeavour, including the traditional White professions, that they are seamlessly equal, superior and inferior depending on micro-environmental differences, situations and luck.
People often talk about “Clever Jews”. Well, anyone who is Jewish will tell you that there may be some truth in that. But that is due to environmental factors such as always being a stranger in their host country and the necessity to study and assimilate. If it has made Jews genetically disposed towards some abilities then maybe its true.
The joke used to be that Jews weren’t so good at sports. Especially swimming. Then Mark Spitz comes along!
| 7 April 2009, 8:58 pm |
anti-muslim bigotry has invaded right wing ideology…not just far right ideology but mainstream ideology
| 7 April 2009, 8:59 pm |
That’s what’s the worry. However the irrational anti-immigration lot have their hands much further from the levers of power than the irrational pro-immigration lot.
I agree, but not in terms of the relative rationality of those who influence policy. The globalist right (markets trump people) have allied with the multicultural left (’race’ trumps people) to their mutual benefit. The globalist right are highly rational individuals who have detached their empiricism from any Christian moral ethic.
I don’t know anything about the Bell Curve and its scientific merits, but I do happen to believe that any human being in any set of circumstances and from any background can triumph in the face of adversity.
| 7 April 2009, 9:10 pm |
anti-muslim bigotry has invaded right wing ideology…not just far right ideology but mainstream ideology
anti-Muslim bigotry has been around a long time, but it was the multicultural left who have sought out various special interest groups to become part of their hegemonic cultural battering ram who first exhibited this psychopathology.
The joke used to be that Jews weren’t so good at sports
Jews are not a ‘race’ per se. Part of the problem is that in the post-modern world, it’s seen as socially acceptable to distinguish between ‘races’.
Judaism is a religion. By believing in an exclusive genetic identity for Jews (compare a Chinese Jew and a Yemeni Jew), it fuels other individuals to seek out a ‘racial’ identity for themselves, which IMHO is at the very least unhelpful.
| 7 April 2009, 9:10 pm |
Sten,
I am not interested in your wacky views on IQ and its relationship to skin pigmentation.
That topic has been done to death and most rational individuals accept that it is a pile of stinking crap, normally pushed out by the Far Right and their allies.
| 7 April 2009, 9:12 pm |
Everyone who knows anything about the SPLC knows that it is essentiallly a shakedown operation run by totally unscrupulous people: “Give us money! Lots of it! More! We will keep those awful White Supremacists, nasty border-watching Minutemen and dreadful Klansmen at bay!”
Oh dear, here we have to say that the *American Renaissance* site has much that will certainly be of interest to HP aficionados – much is good sound stuff and some is bloody awful rubbish.
Rather like HP, in fact.
The cultural and intellectual level of those who contribute to both sites ranges from the excellent to the appalling. Much like CiF in Al-Grauniad, you know.
*American Thinker* site is also interesting. Smart and thoughtful stuff mixed in with ludicrous nonsense stitched together by people with a bee in theiir bonnets about long-forgotten sexual hanky-panky engaged in by an old friend of Obama’s maternal grandfather sixty-five years ago.
Scooting around “race realist” and/or White Nationalist sites is the mental equivalent of what Oscar Wilde called “feasting with panthers” in the sense that one runs the risk of being permanently altered mentally – or affected to a greater or lesser extent at the very least.
How else would one learn the remarkable statistics concerning Somalis in Finland:
0.2% of the population.
10% are gainfully employed and the rest subsist on welfare of one form or another.
12% of robberies in Helsinki are said to involve Somalis [which, if true, would suggest that they commit robberies at a 60x greater rate than their proportionate entitlement.]
Just saying.
| 7 April 2009, 9:14 pm |
I am not interested in your wacky views on IQ and its relationship to skin pigmentation.
That topic has been done to death and most rational individuals accept that it is a pile of stinking crap, normally pushed out by the Far Right and their allies.
Indeed, and I’ll delete any further comments about it. It’s a topic that is not welcome here, any more than Holocaust denial is. Take your views somewhere else.
| 7 April 2009, 9:20 pm |
“anti-muslim bigotry has invaded right wing ideology…not just far right ideology but mainstream ideology”
Anti Western bigotry and anti free speech criticism invaded this country, effectively, when Muslims developed large communities with values inimical to the generous host society of Britain.
Pro Muslim bigotry is the problem, effectively, whereby criticising Islam and Muslim culture has until quite recently been an affront to the multi culti politically correct brigade.
| 7 April 2009, 9:34 pm |
“Judaism is a religion. By believing in an exclusive genetic identity for Jews (compare a Chinese Jew and a Yemeni Jew), it fuels other individuals to seek out a ‘racial’ identity for themselves, which IMHO is at the very least unhelpful.”
Well, jews were defined as a race when race rather than religion became the basis of prejudice in Europe. Leaving aside whether “race” has a meaning apart from in the opinion of the classifier, the fact that jews are endomagous, have low rates of conversion in and have formed small proportions of the population of most of the countries in which they live means that they are likely to have certain attributes in different ratios to the surrounding population. There may not be much external resemblance between a a Chinese Jew and a Yemeni Jew or external dissimilarity with their nonjewish heighbours but they are likely to have certain genetic similarities to one another, whether it be blood groups or hereditary tenencies to illnesses or inherited syndromes.
| 7 April 2009, 10:22 pm |
Roger, what you say is no doubt correct (endomagous – had to look that up), but is it helpful?
For instance, I no doubt share a significant genetic similarity with the majority of Britons…but should we consider ourselves a ‘race’? Moreover, why is arguing for Britons to be considered a ‘race’ as opposed to Jews socially unacceptable? Best way would be to refuse to engage with anyone who claims to be part of a discrete race.
Endomagy (?) seems to be an excuse for bigotry. That is, ‘oh you’re not Muslim, orthodox Jew, right class Hindu etc. so we can’t marry’ – seems to be a form of accepted prejudice to me that has no moral justification.
| 7 April 2009, 10:42 pm |
In related news, some racist groups in the US have decided that Native Americans are cool (for sons-of-the-soil cred). Might have something with DNA testing showing a lot of curious Americans that they are the proverbial one-fourth-Cherokee.
| 7 April 2009, 11:14 pm |
“Judeo-Christian” is one of my least favorite hyphenated terms.
| 8 April 2009, 1:20 am |
Objecting to immigration is not wrong in itself.
Objecting to *illegal* immigration is enough alone to get you listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group. Morris Dees has gone the way of Jesse Jackson in that his main goal these days is to use his organization and the courts to shake down people for cash.
| 8 April 2009, 2:33 am |
Hmmm…
You do know that the SPLC calls pretty much anyone who disagrees with immigration a hate group dont you?
If they told me it was raining I would look outside.
| 8 April 2009, 5:42 am |
anti-Muslim rhetoric– of the kind which too often infests our comments boxes–
It’s good that you at least acknowledge the problem.
But you don’t confront it. Not with the same zeal that you confront Islamism or anti-Zionism. At most you have slapped in the wrist certain notorious Islamophobes on the blog.
I don’t believe in expulsions; freedom of speech is sacrosanct. But clear disavowals of explicit haters, as well as the debunking of their clichés and talking points, would undoubtedly help.
| 8 April 2009, 6:37 am |
Jews are not a ‘race’ per se…..
…….Judaism is a religion.
Another one who doesn’t understand the difference between a religion and people who define their race/ethnic group by the fact that the mother belongs to that group – hence transference of unique genetic markers.
By believing in an exclusive genetic identity for Jews (compare a Chinese Jew and a Yemeni Jew), it fuels other individuals to seek out a ‘racial’ identity for themselves, which IMHO is at the very least unhelpful.
Apologies for being ‘unhelpful’ for you. But facts are facts.
Oona King is Jewish and has a Black father and White Jewish mother. Oona King shares unique genetic markers with MLK and Jesus that Al Sharpton doesn’t have.
Do you understand that being Jewish is separate from following Judaism. Its just that they happen to both be present in 99% of cases.
A child born of a Christian father and Jewish mother is Jewish even if they go on to become Archbishop of Canterbury.
| 8 April 2009, 8:24 am |
I have seen very little of this supposed “anti-Muslim bigotry” on HP. What I have seen is sometimes very critical discussion of Islam’s shortcomings and failures, which is something entirely different and perfectly legitimate. The confusion between the two is at the very foundations of the demagogic “Islamophobia” nonsense.
| 8 April 2009, 8:31 am |
“What is IQ? What is intelligence? In the West we measure it by the ability to solve problems”
Parity,
The whole concept of “IQ” is highly suspect in scientific terms. It is not defined sufficiently rigorously to be particularly meaningful, beyond acting as an acceptance criterion for a club called Mensa.
| 8 April 2009, 9:15 am |
Also at the conference was Serge Trifkovic, who’s more closely aligned with the mainstream right.
And Rushdon has also spoken in the UK – in 2006 he gave a talk on “the biologicial basis of patriotism” at a Right Now! conference held at Mark Mason’s Hall in Piccadilly.
| 8 April 2009, 10:29 am |
“the fact that jews are endomagous, have low rates of conversion in and have formed small proportions of the population of most of the countries in which they live means that they are likely to have certain attributes in different ratios to the surrounding population. ”
Endogamous!!!! Not endomagous!
BTW, endogamy for Jews ended a while ago.
50% intermarriage in the United States.
70% intermarriage in Russia.
I would say that in a few decades there won’t be any Jews left in both countries, except the Orthodox.
| 8 April 2009, 11:02 am |
“clear disavowals of explicit haters, as well as the debunking of their clichés and talking points, would undoubtedly help”
Never fear. I assure you that I will continue to do my utmost to debunk the hate-filled clichés you post non-stop.
| 8 April 2009, 12:24 pm |
Anyone who goes up to bat for western culture, values or civilisation will be labelled racist.
And anyone objecting to illegal immigration will be called the same.
It has become racist to engage in any sort of self-defence.
Resistance is futile!
The ageing commies at the SPLC are our betters; they are the custodians of good taste and the vanguard of the future, and so if they label you racist, you just know they’re right!
“Neo-Nazis”
3,000 people were brutally murdered on 911, and if I recall none of the perps were white.
Many, MANY more attacks are being planned.
No doubt the holy virgins at the SPLC will protect us.
And pray for us.
Gene objects ( quite rightly) to intelligence being connected in any way, shape or form with skin colour, but yet, it seems, makes the odious and incredibly racist assumption that “Neo-Nazis” can only be associated with, and this in all times and places, a white skin.
I’m not losing hope, though, because one day I know that all the old hippies will be dead.
| 8 April 2009, 12:47 pm |
Agreed Shmuel
It is such a nebulous term, generally used by people who scream bloody teleological murder should class be raised. It’s all Spenlger lite cultural pessimism but without the even limited wit and talent of the fin de siecle lot. The kind of conformist gemienschaft they propagate is hardly the gem of Western society either, more like Salazzar with Blackberries
As I’ve mentioned before, Muslims are merely ‘the near enemy’ that focus this alliance. Those quasi-NaziSocs are still gunning for ‘the far enemy’, their erstwhile comrades
| 8 April 2009, 1:45 pm |
You know, when the book L’Empire Éclaté, a little tome dealing with soviet Muslim demographics and its distastrous implications, first appeared back in 78 (79?) people, particularly those on the left, skoffed.
However, some scholars took the work quite seriously, but were tainted, thanks to various lefty do-gooders, with a ‘wiff’ of bigotry.
Turns out the author’s scenario, that of the total collapse of the old Soviet Union, came true faster than even she had expected.
Now, were a similar book to be published addressing the state of Muslim demographics in Western Europe and the implications of those demographics, would it get the same reception and would people label its author a paranoid bigot?
I think so.
You see, it is far more important, not to mention far easier, to maintain correctness and to remain polite front-parlour material, than it is to dive into and think through some very unpleasant and distrubing possibilities.
So has the SPLC, once a lean, tawny operation, become nothing more than a lard-butt pâtisserie dispensing fattening comfort food?
| 8 April 2009, 2:06 pm |
There’s been a lot of bitching here about the SPLC, without any challenge to the accuracy of their report.
| 8 April 2009, 2:29 pm |
anti-Muslim rhetoric– of the kind which too often infests our comments boxes– dominated the proceedings. But at least one speaker went beyond the usual ravings of even our most obnoxious and unwelcome commenters:
Whew!
Glad I’m not the worst. Of course one shouldn’t limit oneself to just being “anti-Muslim”.
I can remember MLK’s Washington speech even though I was but 5 years old.
Isn’t “Telstar” wonderful!
It will soon be the 50th anniversary of that event.
50 years that U.S. Blacks have been graced with head-start programmes, end poverty programmes, school-breakfast programmes, busing programmes, affirmative action programmes, university quota programmes, and indeed with every remedial crutch ‘n lifeline programme that was available to America’s Left/Liberal elites.
So my question is this; Where’s the beef?
And whither South Africa?
No, let’s not even go there.
Painful reality.
| 8 April 2009, 3:55 pm |
as Gene says, people have attacked the SPLC, but not the fascists and wingnut racists attending the “Preserving Western Civilization” Conference
funny that??
| 8 April 2009, 4:50 pm |
JP
Are you on crystal meth or something? Muslim demographics brought down the USSR?
Mate, you worth more than sub-bell curve shit as well
| 8 April 2009, 5:01 pm |
as Gene says, people have attacked the SPLC, but not the fascists and wingnut racists attending the “Preserving Western Civilization” Conference
funny that??
From the SPLC article:
Hart, having compared the Koran to Mein Kampf and Islam to Nazism, no doubt agreed with Auster
I’ve read both books several times and agree with the above assertion.
Lawrence Auster, a right-wing blogger and essayist who has spoken in the past to American Renaissance and who is of Jewish descent, told the audience that the U.S. needs a constitutional amendment to prohibit Islam, which would encourage Muslims to leave on their own. Auster’s other suggestion for our nation’s leaders: “Go to Saudi Arabia, seize the oil, operate the oil fields and adjacent transportation facilities until we get our own energy.” For Auster, Islam, political correctness and multiculturism are a toxic trio. “If a society can’t distinguish itself, it will not continue to exist,” he told those assembled. “If we open ourselves to threats, we go out of existence.”
Perhaps the SPLC prefers Americans perform deep and obsequious bows in front of Saudi Royalty.
I cannot understand why we give trillions of dollars to a a gang of primitives who then turn around and use that money to fund hate-filled schools and mosques worldwide.
Saudi Arabia is the serpent’s head; it is the most repressive and fascistic country on earth and anyone who dares oppose it gets my support.
What does the SPLC have to say about the millions of hate-filled Saudi funded textbooks that are being distributed worldwide?
What Modernity, Gene and the SPLC fail to understand is that supremacism can be mandated by religion, and that the ultimate result of such a mandate is a society that arbitrarily kills people based on their belief and faith.
Theological or racial extremism; it’s you choice, but the end result of either is much the same.
A leftwing U.S. president, sans kimono, bowing lower than a nipponese whore to the propagators of the most intense hatred ever devised by man, a hatred responsable for the death of 3,000 Americans, and a hatred hell-bent on killing 1000s more.
But hey!
It’s Auster and Hart who are the *wingnuts*
And it’s the SPLC with their impassioned exposés on “islamophobia” who are heros.
funny that??
| 8 April 2009, 5:08 pm |
Are you on crystal meth or something?
Don’t do drugs except for an occasional spliff.
Muslim demographics brought down the USSR?
Yes, coupled with a Russian demographic implosion
Mate, you worth more than sub-bell curve shit as well
My bell curves are fine and my seams are straight.
| 8 April 2009, 8:36 pm |
‘Muslim demographics brought down the USSR? Yes, coupled with a Russian demographic implosion’
Nowt to do with political stasis, crippling production bottle necks, collaspe of public trust/fear/tacit submission, economic meltdown, complete disillusionment with the ruling party and ideology, rising nationalism in the Warsaw pact and various constitutient republics?
‘It’s Auster and Hart who are the *wingnuts*’ Yeah, they are.
“the Muslim problem is not just a condition of their particular belief system. Instead, he argued that Muslims have an aggressive personality with relatively closed, simple minds,”
It would be perfectly possible for a belief system and the social background it produces to make its members more likely to have those characteristics and/or to attract people with those characteristics. However, surely people with “an aggressive personality with relatively closed, simple minds” would be more impervious to reason than one might expect.