Harry's Place

Of course, none of this vile anti-Semitism is ever mentioned in the Politically Correct Main Stream Media.

I cannot of course validate your statement that this sort of drivel is widely believed in the Arab world; I cannot validate it but I believe it. The disconnect between the Arab (and probably to a large degree Muslim) world and the West is so great, it is probably unbridgeable, at least in our lifetimes, barring some world changing event (asteroid hit, etc.), and maybe not even then. They live in a closed fantasy world; but then again, to a certain degree, they always have.

We don’t share any values; have basically nothing in common with them or they with us. How can one talk about freedom of thought or the rights of women with people who believe in this sort of idiocy?

The Islamocraven Labour government – which relies on the Muslim vote for 20-30 of its MPs – needs to go.

The UN passed a Charter outlawing defamation of religion recently, why can’t someone complain to whatever gravytrain it is that oversees that Charter?

Sue Rochester: The only religion that is meant to be protected by that UN Resolution about defamying religion was Islam.

Again, you assert that so called ‘liberals’ support bloodlust racist Islamic terrorists IN SPITE of their overt and vocal antisemitic rage. I submit it’s BECAUSE of it.

The grotesque and unpalatable improbability is that despotic one-party Syria is the only Arab country in which Christians are equal citizens [Lebanon being a special case and all perceptive observers are in agreement that Lebanese Christians, like Palestinian Christians and Iraqi Christians, are leaving the Middle East in droves.]

Worse is that any political upheaval in Syria would almost certainly worsen the situation for the Christian communities. The stability of a dictatorship is immensely better than chaos in a part of the world where the choice is between tyranny and anarchy.

Probably the best single intelligent overview is that written by William Dalrymple, “From the Holy Mountain.”

David All: I am sure you are right about teh intention behind the Charter, but the point is we must exploit any opening to embarress and defeat the enemies of progress etc. Or as folk wisdom would have it, ‘What’s sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.’.

Good piece Dave.
In ‘79 I visited Syria (on one of my other passports, obviously) and went to see the Golan Heights from the other side. The locals were keen to recount to the nice English lady tourist how on the other side lived Israelis -all of them well over 6 feet tall -and how at any minute they could swarm over the hill and steal children for food.
I remember thinking at the time how Orwellian it was to keep a population in fear of an outside force to prevent them from thinking about their own miserable lot.

You make it sound so helpless! Don’t you have any liberals there who don’t isite to war and racism and try to strengthen the moderates like the ones yo mentiond!? What about strengthening Jordan politically (I’d say it’s preferably better than the rest of the Arab countries). There’s something you liberals can do isn’t there?

Oh and I don’t know anything about Corbyn or Short but I do know that whe Galloway was in Ottowa a couple of years ago he was at an SSNP meeting……….i don’t think HE’s blind, I think he knows exactly what he’s doing.

2+2=4

“Their position is perfectly clear now. This isn’t about opposing Israeli foreign policy. It’s simply Jew-hatred and violence.”

And this is NEWS?????

Am i the only one who is noticing a massive grass roots Syria love in? It seems to be the new location of choice for for gap year types and 22 year olds too sophisticated to go to Thailand. And they all come back saying what a wonderful place it is. Fucktards

‘Yet it’s Westerners like Corbyn, Galloway, Short and people in the FO who engage with the extremists while isolating the reformers; and who go to Arab countries and stick their heads in the sand, denying the uncomfortable truths which are right in front of their own eyes. They have absolutely no excuse’

In my experience, people engage with concepts which fit in with their existing paradigms. Likewise, they turn away from what won’t fit in.

Thus either Corbyn, Galloway etc overlook Arab anti-semitism because they think it understandable; OR they are untroubled by the anti-semitism because they share it.

Either scenario disgraces them. However, if someone here is aware that they have expressed outrage, concern even, about anti-semitism in the Arab media, I’d be relieved to hear it.

You make it sound so helpless! Don’t you have any liberals there who don’t isite to war and racism and try to strengthen the moderates like the ones yo mentiond!? What about strengthening Jordan politically (I’d say it’s preferably better than the rest of the Arab countries). There’s something you liberals can do isn’t there?

It is that hopeless, the fact that the nutters can rely on having no vocal opposition whatsoever is the most freightening thing.

In the middle east a liberal is someone who writes an article saying we need modernity ie, liberalized institutions, democracy, scientific education stc. so that we will finally have the capability to defeat the Jews.

Dictatorships are extremely stressful places to live; people will grab at anything which offers at least some sort of relief. It doesn’t matter how crude or dangerous it is. If I were in that position I’d have done exactly the same.

What excuse do Brits have, on the other hand?

Yet it’s Westerners like Corbyn, Galloway, Short and people in the FO who engage with the extremists while isolating the reformers; and who go to Arab countries and stick their heads in the sand, denying the uncomfortable truths which are right in front of their own eyes. They have absolutely no excuse.

I’m afraid none of what you quote justifies classifying Hamas as a terrorist organization. Incitement to hate comes from many sources, including democratic ones; a good example is India, where incitement against the Sikhs, the Muslims, the Christians, or migrant workers from other states is a staple of local media outlets, including official ones, in several states. Yet no one would classify India’s state governments as terrorist organizations.

An organization can be considered terrorist if terror is their raison-d’être, if they can show no other activity than violence to achieve political ends. That’s not the case with either Hamas or Hizbullah, both of which are essentially concerned with the administration of state services in their areas of influence.

Education gets delivered in Gaza (the literacy rate is higher than that in Brazil), and so does health care, traffic policing, sanitary inspections, etc. They’re no longer terrorists. They’re a party in charge of a territory. That’s the reality that must be faced. All the rest is semantic games.

Refusing to engage with Hamas because of their hateful propaganda may be a principled policy, but one which, if implemented with the appropirate consistency, would lead Britain to sever its ties with 75% of the globe.

I’m afraid none of what you quote justifies classifying Hamas as a terrorist organization.

I’ve seen the aftermath of a bus bombing? The destroyed bus full of nails covered in poison, the bodiless head of the brainwashed bomber bouncing on the street…

HB will be busted on this one.

You said They’re no longer terrorists

You state, therefore, that there was a point in time where they WERE terrorists and now you say they are not Terrorists.

What happened at that transitional moment that allows them to be not called terrorists then?

If they are no longer terrorists then they would have no problem saying “We renounce terrorism”. When did they/will they say that?

I’ve seen the aftermath of a bus bombing? The destroyed bus full of nails covered in poison, the bodiless head of the brainwashed bomber bouncing on the street…

In other words, very similar to when Israel drops a flechette shell…

http://www.btselem.org/english/press_releases/20080417.asp

“Education gets delivered in Gaza (the literacy rate is higher than that in Brazil), and so does health care, traffic policing, sanitary inspections, etc. They’re no longer terrorists. They’re a party in charge of a territory.”

Utter brainless nonsense – as per usual from the busted, Jew-hating flush. Throwing your opponents off a building doesn’r count, as long as you are an anti-semite …

HB, I bet Hamas makes the trains run on time as well!

HB, your nonsense equalling suicide bombers and Israeli bombs and shells overlooks the cruical fact that the IDF is not deliberating targeting civilians unlike your suicide bomber buddies.

“Montage of B52 dropping atomic bomb on Hiroshima”
B29, actually, unless- as they well may be- the programme-makers were ignorant as well as liars.

HB, your nonsense equalling suicide bombers and Israeli bombs and shells overlooks the cruical fact that the IDF is not deliberating targeting civilians unlike your suicide bomber buddies.

You can’t compare a State with an army with a proto-State without an army. You must compare what Hamas does with what the Jews did when they didn’t have an army. And when the Jews didn’t have an army, they blew up marketplaces, they derailed trains with civilians, they bombed alleys between cafés and theaters, and they machine-gunned civilian buses, cars and carts.

And even now that the Jews do have an army, at most we can say that we don’t know whether Israel deliberately targets civilians or not. We do know that out of 18 recently confirmed cases of people who died from Israeli flechettes (a flechette is a shell full of small darts, very similar to the bombs full of nails the Palestinians use), only 2 were confirmed to have been participating in hostilities, while 11 were confirmed not to have been taking part of the fighting.

Also, while Hamas deliberately kills civilians, its objective is not to kill Jews, but to return to the places they were expelled from. And they kill civilians only because it’s the only way they have to hit Israel (cf. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokio). If they could blackout Tel Aviv for a month, or destroy Israeli factories, or withhold the taxes paid by Israeli citizens, they would do that, instead of blowing themselves up in pizza shops.

Also, while Hamas deliberately kills civilians, its objective is not to kill Jews, but to return to the places they were expelled from. And they kill civilians only because it’s the only way they have to hit Israel (cf. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokio). If they could blackout Tel Aviv for a month, or destroy Israeli factories, or withhold the taxes paid by Israeli citizens, they would do that, instead of blowing themselves up in pizza shops.

Nice supposition. I think their purpose is to keep war going because they dream of genocide one day. Perhaps if they could build concentration camps and gas the Jews THAT’S what they’d do. Why don’t you ask them?

Actually to be precise, I think they kill jews because they fervently believe that God sends them to heaven for dying in battle against his enemies.

enemies of God they use that phrase a lot. It’s the most obscene phrase ever uttered in my opinion

But I will say this, Hamas deserves your support “The Hasbara Buster”. I really am happy that they get the support of all the mouth breathing, drooling, crazy, Jew-hating Nazis. They deserve your support. Every time you white wash them, you make me smile.

At moments like this I always imagine HB as a sort of Bart Simpson character, typing away furiously (’Where’s that damned link?’) in a darkened room with papers (to ‘prove’ his point) scattered all over the floor, occasionally grabbing an alfahores from the stack (still in their plastic container from the shop) on the desk and spluttering crumbs all over the keyboard, his feet swinging furiously six inches above the floor as his anger rises in tempo with the faint strains of a tango from a bar down the street…..

“Also, while Hamas deliberately kills civilians, its objective is not to kill Jews, but to return to the places they were expelled from. And they kill civilians only because it’s the only way they have to hit Israel (cf. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokio). ”

This is why they kill fellow arabs who are members of Fatah?

“we don’t know whether Israel deliberately targets civilians or not”

Yes, that is the usual anti-semitic propaganda from Busted all right. He lives for Jew-hatred.

Israelinurse: please don’t insult Bart or any other Simpson by comparing them to HB. The only charecter of “The Simpsons” that HB resembles is the sinister Sideshow Bob.

Seriously, HB is one vile piece of total crap.

HB, you are a Jew hating cun.. ! I am a Jew and I don’t have an army. No Jews in the USA, UK, France etc have an army.

Hmm… I see. Also, it’s wrong to say that the Armenians have an army, because no Armenians in the USA, UK, France, etc., have an army. It’s also wrong to say that the Greeks have an army, because the closely-knit Hellenic community in my city doesn’t actually have an army. And the Chinese? No, they don’t have an army, either — or do the Chinese in Malaysia, Indonesia & Singapore have an army?

It would follow that no country with a sizable diaspora can be said to have an army…

FYI, my dear friend, Israel defines itself as the Jewish state, and even has called on the Palestinians not only to acknowledge it, which they already do, but also to acknowledge it as a Jewish state. In that context, and taking into account that there exists a body called the Israeli Defense Forces, I’d say it’s safe to assert that the Jews have an army. If you think saying so is antisemitic, that’s just another example of paranoia. Yes, Jewish paranoia.

HB, rant all you like, no one is listening to you.

HB, you are an antisemitic neo-nazi posing as a member of the left; do you write for the Guardians editorial team?

HB,
Genocide is the expressed, written, and spoken goal of Hamas. This is not speculation. I will take yet another opportunity to print article 7 of the Hamas charter.
There is no other way of putting it. If you support Hamas you are supporting genocide. I am sure you will do incredible contortions of logic to state that somehow you are not a supporter of genocide. So lets see what you say. Lets see just how non credible and illogical you can make yourself.

Here is article 7 of the Hamas charter. Its a show stopper.
Just a note. The Islamic Resistance movement is the formal name for Hamas.

Article 7 of the Hamas charter
The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to implement Allah’s promise, whatever time that may take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until the Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them), until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! Oh Abdullah!, there is a Jew behind me, come on and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”

“Seriously, HB is one vile piece of total crap.”

Today, he is at his most virulent because it is Easter. He is simply behaving in the way people like him have behaved for many centuries. A hundred years ago, they would have been screaming “Death to thet Jews!” Sixty-five years ago, they would have been helping the Nazis murder Jews. After the war, they would have been cheering on the pogromists of Kielce. Today, they seek to destroy the Jewish state. Of course, the fact that he is from a nation that openly collaborated not just in the Holocaust but also in the worst act of terrorism against Jews since World War II doesn’t help matters.

I left Northern Ireland in 1996, yet I still carry some residual suspicion towards Catholics. So what chance has anyone indoctrinated by 30-plus years of antisemitic totalitarianism got?

Tangential point. The “bigotry” of unionists in Northern Ireland is based on the idea that there is a conspiracy of Catholics out to destroy the state and subsume it into a country they do not recognise as theirs against their will in which they will be outvoted. In the 60s when Paisley started tub thumping there was also concern that Catholicism would be institutionalised in the organs of that state.

There is a slight problem with calling this “bigotry” however. That problem is that it these things were factually correct.

Fran

Thus either Corbyn, Galloway etc overlook Arab anti-semitism because they think it understandable; OR they are untroubled by the anti-semitism because they share it.

I’m sure that Corbyn, Galloway etc don’t think Jews drink Christian blood, but I’m pretty sure that they are anti-semitic a la the public position of David Duke, i.e. when Galloway says “neocon” he means Jews or at least Jews and Gentile allies of Jews. That Jews pull the strings of the US government and so on. It’s pretty obvious.

Part of this is that he has a psychopath’s mind and thinks that the world always operates on selfish interest and not moral principles, i.e. democracy and freedom are shams and don’t matter. They’re just words to be used and abused. The same kind of people are always pining for the SCO to rival NATO, they talk of an “American empire” and so on. He couldn’t conceive of people acting to uphold fairness and government by mutual consent, everything that happens is to serve someone’s selfish interest and talk like that is just to pull the wool over the eyes of sheep. NATO cannot be a mutually agreed defence club it has to be an “empire”. Ergo if the US supports Israel it’s to do with Jews pulling strings rather than principles of freedom and democracy like when they support Japan or South Korea against North Korea. The latter just wouldn’t compute in his brain.

I was watching this alleged coup plot footage in Georgia earlier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSfklt7gefw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXTQcyhIQ2k

I think that Galloway would have a very similar mindset to this guy. A mindset you find in both the far left and far right. Though really such distinctions probably don’t mean much today. Just calling them anti-liberal or anti-liberty would be a better way to put it.

I’ve noticed that Muslims are quite obsessed with the American use of the A Bomb in Japan, in a way that no other people around the planet are – not even the Japanese.

Of course one can quite rightly criticise the American action as a war crime.

But this obsession of Muslims goes a lot deeper in my view (especially when one considers their complete lack of interest in other comparable human rights violations e.g. mass murder of Jews and Armenians, Darfur, Saddam’s human rights violations etc)

I can only conclude that this is really a lot to do with an unfulfilled wish deep within Islam to lay waste to the Christian non-Muslim world in particular as being their chief enemy and somehow frustrators of Allah’s will.

I will take yet another opportunity to print article 7 of the Hamas charter.

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but charters will never hurt me.

I’ll take this opportunity to quote, once again, Likud’s platform as per the Knesset web page, which hasn’t been superseeded by any other document:

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

Therefore, the Palestinians have no partner for peace. They can only resort to violence, don’t you think? They have tried talking to Israel, but what can you do with a government that flatly rejects your self-determination?

I’ve noticed that Muslims are quite obsessed with the American use of the A Bomb in Japan, in a way that no other people around the planet are – not even the Japanese.

I hope they are. Even more I hope they become obsessed with the effects of H-bombs. It’s time for them to wake the fuck up to the fact that war isn’t just raids anymore and that Mohammad’s idea of robbing and invading is simply impossible now and would lead to their complete destruction.

Hot Dog Stands on the Moon says:

“Again, you assert that so called ‘liberals’ support bloodlust racist Islamic terrorists IN SPITE of their overt and vocal antisemitic rage. I submit it’s BECAUSE of it.”

This idea needs to be seriously considered. What Leftist rage do you ever hear about in relation to oppressed Kurds and slaughtered Congolese and Darfurians? None, of course.

“Their position is perfectly clear now. This isn’t about opposing Israeli foreign policy. It’s simply Jew-hatred and violence. “

And how would you know for that sure? Are you saying the Israeli State never does anything which may make anyone critical or even detestful of its actions?

Or is it the usual politically convenient (but no one falls for it anymore) assumption for you, as a pro-Israeli, to make that any criticizm of Israel is anti-semitism?

“Or is it the usual politically convenient (but no one falls for it anymore) assumption for you, as a pro-Israeli, to make that any criticizm of Israel is anti-semitism?”

And only anti-Zionists and anti-Semites make that quite insane claim. And it is not a matter of not “falling for it” but of not giving a damn about anti-Semitism or its consequences. You are far from alone. It’s the very reason in fact why the Allies turned their backs as millions of Jews were murdered.

“And only anti-Zionists and anti-Semites make that quite insane claim.”

I dont think anyone need to deny or apologise for being “anti-Zionist” – once you take a look at its political ideology and the implications of that.

As for “not giving a damn”, I think you are being a little ungrateful when Jewish people were given a newly created country for themselves by the Allies.

“These views are widespread for two main reasons. Firstly, they get told this narrative every single day of their lives. It gets repeated, reinforced and repeated again, often quite implicitly, in the newspapers, on TV, in the schools, in the mosques. It becomes extremely difficult to break free from.

I left Northern Ireland in 1996, yet I still carry some residual suspicion towards Catholics. So what chance has anyone indoctrinated by 30-plus years of antisemitic totalitarianism got?”

There is also a slight possibility, a miniscule one, that these views may instead be formed by 30-years of repeated illegal settlement building, repeated political assassinations of elected leaders, repeated ignorance of 96 UN Resolutions, repeated destruction of homes and agricultural land, repeated eviction of entire families to refugee camps, humiliating check points and repeated prevention from travelling to work, school and places of worship and repeated killings by the IDF with a brutal occupation which repeatedly denies basic human rights to an entire population, and widespread propaganda that portrays the aggressors as the victim and the innocent victims as the ‘terrorists’.

Or are you claiming Israel is a beacon of perfect and there is a global Muslim conspiracy to create Jew-hatred just for the sake of it, and none of the actions of the Israeli state and the activities of its supporters and sympathisers contribute to their views?

Get real!

“These views are widespread for two main reasons. Firstly, they get told this narrative every single day of their lives. It gets repeated, reinforced and repeated again, often quite implicitly, in the newspapers, on TV, in the schools, in the mosques. It becomes extremely difficult to break free from.

I left Northern Ireland in 1996, yet I still carry some residual suspicion towards Catholics. So what chance has anyone indoctrinated by 30-plus years of antisemitic totalitarianism got?”

There is also a slight possibility that these views may instead be formed by 30+ years of repeated illegal settlement building, repeated political assassinations of elected leaders, repeated ignorance of 96 UN Resolutions, repeated destruction of homes and agricultural land, repeated eviction of entire families to refugee camps, repeated prevention from travelling to work, school and places of worship with humiliating check points and repeated killings by the IDF pf women, children and civilians with a brutal illegal occupation which repeatedly denies basic human rights to an entire population, and widespread propaganda that portrays the aggressors as the victim and the innocent victims as the ‘terrorists’.

Or are you claiming Israel is a beacon of perfection and there is a global Muslim conspiracy to create Jew-hatred just for the sake of it, and none of the actions of the Israeli state and the activities of its supporters and sympathisers (of whatever religion) contribute to their views?

Get real!

What Leftist rage do you ever hear about in relation to oppressed Kurds and slaughtered Congolese and Darfurians?

Exactly the same rage you find among Neocons regarding Tamil terrorism in Sri Lanka, Christian terrorism in Northeastern India, Christian terrorism in Uganda, anti-migrant-worker terrorism in Mumbai or, actually, ANY terrorism that doesn’t come from Muslims.

sorry for double-post, problem wity my browser.

James P you are a disgrace.

The post Holocaust Jews were not GIVEN anything. By anybody.

Please do some studying.

Incidentally sir your problems are not with your browser they are with your lack of basic facts, starting with your OTT accusations against Israel that manage somehow

a) to suggest that Jews should be “grateful” for having been “given” a state that was (somehow you forgot this part)

b) immediately attacked

c) repeatedly attacked

d) the “occupation” postdated the attacks against the state of Israel – indeed the PLO wasn’t formed to “liberate” the West Bank and Gaza – nor is this the plan of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran…

e) please consider the possibility that all the awfulness of the “occupation” might have something to do with the endless violence against the people of Israel and the lack of any kind of sense of safety there

f) and finally – nobody gave the Yishuv A DAMN THING.

Nothing. Period.

Israel was created by people who worked, sacrificed and died for the simple right to exist – it wasn’t a goddam gift.

And given the endless threats not only against Jews per se but Israel, we’ll be lucky if we’re able to say “Next year in Jerusalem” one of these fine days because it’s likely to be a smoking hole thanks to your sort of hideous incitement and warping of facts. Not one thing about your “narrative” suggests a basis for reconciliation or the peaceful resolution of conflict – nothing. This is the sort of ugliness that fuels endless war.

One could go on but what’s the point?

Once again, might I suggest you please go get some books AND READ THEM. Not “narratives” – history – and yes that includes the disgraceful history of postwar Britain vis a vis the Jews.

I for one am not grateful.

James Piss doesn’t even know that the Jewish National Home was created in 1922 by the Mandate For Palestine and that Israel became a State BECAUSE THE BRITISH LEFT IN 1948 and offered a State in 1948 – nothing to do with The Holocaust, except that the British had prevented Jews from fleeing The Holocaust and going to Palestine as they were entitled.

James Piss should go an post on MPAC UK or other extremist Islkamist hate site and Jew Hate sites where his revision of history won’t be out of place.

Or are you claiming Israel is a beacon of perfection and there is a global Muslim conspiracy to create Jew-hatred just for the sake of it, and none of the actions of the Israeli state and the activities of its supporters and sympathisers (of whatever religion) contribute to their views?

No, there is just a global Muslim conspiracy to create Jew-hatred just for the sake of it, You will find it in the Koran and Hadiths and you will find it in things like the Hamas charter and all the Arab/Palestinian media incitement to hate and kill Jews – for no reason other than they are Jews.

You will find it in people like you who think that hatred of Jews has some reason and that reason is the existence of Jews. Instead you make up a whole litany of “Why Jews are Bad” – and simply create a new “Protocols of James Piss” whereby Jews are responsible for everything.

James Piss has this well-worn attitude that the problems of the Middle East are all due to Israel and the actions of Israelis, specifically Jews. If only Israel would give in to everything that everyone else wanted then “I will love Jews”.

You will Love them because they will be humiliated and killed in greater numbers. And for you that will serve them right.

When that is done you will start to wonder why Muslims appear to hate you, a non-Muslim. “Why are they bombing us again?” you will say. Then you will find a list of reasons to hate your own country for ‘what they did to Muslims” and conclude that “they have a point”. You will, of course offer yourself for sacrifice as way of an apology.

Your cousins in the USA will be asking “Why are they bombing us? Our President told them we loved them….” and so it goes on.

“Sticks and stones will break my bones, but charters will never hurt me”

Nor any contact with reality or the relevant facts. Your Jew-hatred obsession is not amenable to reason. You simply hate Yids.

I see that we have a new Jew-hater on the block, James with his mouth-foaming nonsense about Israel’s “breach of UN resolutions yadda yadda I know eff-all about Israel’s history but I will shoot off my mouth anyway”.

ignorance of 96 UN Resolutions

A comment from someone not in control of their logic or grammar.

No-one is ‘ignorant’ of there being 96 UN Resolutions. I believe we are all aware of UN Resolutions. Perhaps you meant that Israel ‘ignores’ 96 UN Resolutions.

When one says “Israel shouldn’t hold a victory parade in Jerusalem” (despite it being the liberated capital of Israel) , and the next one says “We deplore that Israel held a victory parade in Jerusalem” you can see how these absured, one-sided resolutions can stack up.

It’s time to attack the poison dwarf Corbyn and sweet-toned Benn for the company they keep. Streichcer is alive and well on the left of the labour party. I was once left, but no no longer: if Corbyn and Benn are my supposed fellower travellers, to hell with them. I’ll vote any one to get rid of Sreicher Corby and Benn. How are you doing, Tamimmi?

It’s time to attack the poison dwarf Corbyn and sweet-toned Benn for the company they keep. Streichcer is alive and well on the left of the labour party. I was once left, but no no longer: if Corbyn and Benn are my supposed fellower travellers, to hell with them. I’ll vote any one to get rid of Sreicher Corbyn and Benn. How are you doing, Tamimmi?

Why do they hate us http://www.thejc.com/print/13648

An Israeli family living in Edgware say they fear for their safety after being subjected to a campaign of antisemitic abuse by their neighbours.

Corbyn, Galloway, Tonge, Abdullah – what say you?

Abduallah, signed anything recently that might have a bearing?

DavidM

A Herculean task.

Thank you for the background and the presentation.

Sorry we effaced 90% of your European brethren and sistren, here’re a few strips of sand, and there are five armies which some of our officers are commanding.

HB,
Great response. Sticks and stones. Sounds like you are a six year old. Instead of doing contortions of logic to show how you do not support genocide, you simply ignore the fact and try to change the subject. Good technique, but it does not change anything. You are supporting genocide weather you try to avoid the issue or not.
So lets see the group you support.
Hamas:
Violent suppression of political opponents.
Suppression of freedom of speech.
Oppression of Women’s rights.
Oppression of atheism.
Intolerance towards other religious beliefs.
Oppression of Gay rights.
Call to genocide.

Since you support the above, I would suggest posting on a Nazi blog, where your views are a better fit.

Stan

Thanks or shedding light on this DaveM. Keep it up.

Davem, good post. I admire your openness and tenacity.

The truth is that people, everywhere, will believe absolutely anything. There are in fact NO absolute restraints of logic or experience at all.

If it can be said, someone, somewhere will be signing up to believe it.

Most Germans, and certainly the ordinary people doing the killing, actually believed that the Jews had started the war and that all of them were engaged in a global conspiracy against Germany. That’s how they justified murdering children to themselves and to each other.

The Al Manar propaganda follows a consistent line of Nazi-style antisemitic propaganda which can be traced directly back to the Nazis through the Nazi broadcasts to the Arab world, Johannes von Leer and Amin al Husseini, and Nasser’s culture ministry and its broadcasts to the Arab world, and the influence of people such as al Banna, Qutb, Nasser, Arafat and Khomeini.

The truth of the Middle East is that peace will remain remote and unrealistic for so long as the dominant beliefs about Jews are paranoid and genocidal.

But that’s the real point of this stuff, isn’t it?

I appeal again to everyone to ignore Hasbara (aka Alberto the Nazi midget). His deeply held hatreds are caused by an evil Jewish jeweller once insulting him while he was investigating his wife’s ring. Alberto, tell us that story again, some folk might have missed it.

Is “ring” a euphemism, Galaxy?

‘As for “not giving a damn”, I think you are being a little ungrateful when Jewish people were given a newly created country for themselves by the Allies.’

Ungrateful that the Allies effectively collaborated in the Holocaust by preventing the escape of the drowning Jews of Europe and by not lifting one finger to help or raising their voices above a whisper to protest? Ungrateful that even after the Holocaust thousands of survivors languished in Allied-run concentration camps rejected by the entire world? Ungrateful that the very nations who had prevented the escape of Jews from Europe welcomed in with open arms many of the very worst murderers of Jews? Ungrateful that virtually all of those murderers remained protected and free until the end of their lives? Ungrateful that Britain did everything she could to prevent the creation of Israel and acted in a manner towards Holocaust survivors in post-war Palestine that would have done credit to the SS? Ungrateful that Truman had to be virtually blackmailed into recognising Israel? Ungrateful that the Jews of the nascent state of Israel had to restort to smuggling arms to defend themselves because nations like the U.S. had made such shipments illegal? Ungrateful that countless people in the U.S. and the UK have targeted Israel for destruction just as their parents and grandparents turned their backs on 1.5 million Jewish children as they were shot and gassed and buried alive? Ungrateful that there are many in the U.S. and UK who proudly wear their anti-Israeli credentials on their breast and exhort Hamas and Hezbollah to kill as many Jews as possible?

“Israel was created by people who worked, sacrificed and died for the simple right to exist – it wasn’t a goddam gift. ”

The IRA can claim they “worked, sacrificed and died” for what they wanted, does that make their objective acceptable, and the victims of their terrorism are to be forgotten?

No-one is ‘ignorant’ of there being 96 UN Resolutions. I believe we are all aware of UN Resolutions. Perhaps you meant that Israel ‘ignores’ 96 UN Resolutions.

parity ErRor, you home in on the semantics on the single phrase “ignorant of 96 UN Resolutions” of the many. Its good to know that you accept all the other illegal atrocities I listed, which you didnt object to.

Not one thing about your “narrative” suggests a basis for reconciliation or the peaceful resolution of conflict – nothing. This is the sort of ugliness that fuels endless war.

Well, its so blatantly obvious, it doesnt need to be spelt out, except to extremists who prefer to stick their head in the sands to avoid the so simple answer. Here you go: End the occupation.

Simple, innit?

Its good to know that you accept all the other illegal atrocities I listed, which you didnt object to.

Fuck off! Why should I waste my time answering complete bollocks. I don’t play the wind-up game with trolls.

Simple innit:

“From the river to the sea Palestine will be free”, “With blood, with guns we’ll free Palestine” So end the occupation of Tel Aviv. End the occupation of Haifa, Nahariyya, Akko, Tsfat, Tiberias, the Gallilee, the Sharon and Yizrael valleys. End the occupation of Beersheva, Kiryat Gat and Eilat. End the occupation. It’s simple, that is if like James P, one desires Arab Muslim sovereignty to supplant Israeli sovereignty. “It’s simple” is Norman Finkelstein’s thesis.

“It’s simple”, is also the hubris that spews from the keyboards and mouths of supremacists, illiterate in the languages in which the issues are debated, still pontificate from hallowed perches in the distant lands they reside in, as they are sanctimonious supremacists and as a result, know far better than the people who actually live and wrestle with the issues on a day by day basis.

And of course, misinformed and disinforming, hubristic and hyperbolic sanctimonious supremacists can’t possibly be extremist. Oh wait a minute.

Or are you claiming Israel is a beacon of perfect and there is a global Muslim conspiracy to create Jew-hatred just for the sake of it, and none of the actions of the Israeli state and the activities of its supporters and sympathisers contribute to their views?

James, many of Israel’s actions deserve scrutiny and criticism. There is nothing wrong in highlighting these actions and being annoyed and upset by them.

However, when many in the arab and wider muslim world care ONLY about Israel’s actions (and not of the awful occupation of Western Sahara, the Hama massacre in Syria, Black September in Jordan, The hanging of gays in Iran, the stoning of women in Pakistan, the 180 educational establishments destroy in the past 3 months in Swat region of Pakistan etc. etc.) it suggests something deep seated.

Now, the reasons for this are cetainly more nuanced than ‘the muslims are genetically programmed to hate jews’ because that is definitely not true. It has much to do with repressed societies, state media with an agenda etc. etc. etc. and very little to do with Israel’s actual actions.

The sad fact is that even if Israel had never commited a crime in its entire history, many in the muslim world would hate Israel just as vociferiously – because it exists at all.

In fact, I’d submit that Israel’s bad actions actually make some Muslims (and some idiot leftists (and rightists!) in europe) like Israel eve more – because it gives them an excuse to hate jews.

JamesP

Well, its so blatantly obvious, it doesnt need to be spelt out, except to extremists who prefer to stick their head in the sands to avoid the so simple answer. Here you go: End the occupation.

Simple, innit?

Actually, no. It isn’t that easy.

Firstly, ‘the ocupation’ means different things to different people.
It could mean:
a) “All the jews get out, every inch of palestine is islamic land. If you choose to live here, you must be subjugated as second class citizens”

It could mean:
b) “Give back all the land that was won in the 1967 war”

Ot could also mean:
c) “Remove all settlements from the West Bank and Gaza. East Jerusalem however is rightfully Israel’s because they took it from a power who had no legal sovereignty and as the higher contracting power Israel’s has legal sovereignty”

Or anything in between.

There are logistical problems with all of them.

a) needs no explaining
b) Israel left Gaza. Israel was then confronted with 6000 rockets in 3 years put its southern citizens in danger. Where is the impetus to take such a large risk with the west bank. It’s easy to say: ‘remove the occupation, then there’ll be no violence’ but pragmatic leaders and military strategists can never take such a massive risk with the lives of their citizens. Not least because the stated aims of PIJ and Hamas are still the death of all jews and the liberation of all of palestine.
c) Well, all the problems of b) PLUS the palestinians want jerusalem just as much as Israel doesn’t want to give it up.

[NOTE: I'm aware of the settlement expansions in the WB that took place after the Gaza withdrawal but is that anything new? I HATE the fact that Israel is expanding its settlements, even for 'natural growth' but it isn't a new phenomenon. Can we please TRY to see Israel's withdrawal from Gaza as a sign of willingness to change policy, no matter how slowly?]

So actually, I’d love (genuinely!) to see an end to the occupation, but it’s not that easy!

An ideal solution would be to give the settlers an ultimatum. Leave or become palestinian citizens (with extra security). That way, the religious nutjobs can keep hold of their jewish land (by living on it), the palestinians get a state (albeit with some jews in it) and most of the settlers will probably leave.

Israel left Gaza. Israel was then confronted with 6000 rockets in 3 years put its southern citizens in danger. Where is the impetus to take such a large risk with the west bank.

The problem is that Israel left Gaza only to further settle the West Bank.

Israel could stop stealing land in the West Bank AT NO RISK AT ALL. But it continues with the thievery.

For instance, an illegal road is being built on private Palestinian property between the legal settlement of Eli, north of Ramallah, and the illegal outpost of Yuval, just south of the Arab city. Israel takes advantage of truces to step up construction on Palestinian lands — what incentive do the Palestinians have for a truce?

So, I would say a fourth meaning of the word occupation would be: “Keep living in the West Bank until the conflict is resolved, but please don’t engage in violence such as land stealing, tree uprooting, water-tank destruction, schoolchildren stoning or shepherd beating. It enrages people.”

The problem is that Israel left Gaza only to further settle the West Bank.

You should read whole posts before you start commenting. I acknowledge this. However, settlement expansion is nothing new.

Israel could stop stealing land in the West Bank AT NO RISK AT ALL. But it continues with the thievery.

I wholeheartedly agree. (Wow, i never thought that would happen!)

Israel takes advantage of truces to step up construction on Palestinian lands — what incentive do the Palestinians have for a truce?

The palestinians take advantage of truces to stockpile weapons to attack israelis with – what incentives to the Israelis have for a truce?

It works both ways. Both sides have been pretty shitty partners for peace if we get to the bottom of it. Even Lieberman *shudder* admitted that! Israel has been a crappy partner for peace (in some ways) but so has Palestine. slinging blame at either side for past mistakes/omissions etc. is not helpful.

So, I would say a fourth meaning of the word occupation would be: “Keep living in the West Bank until the conflict is resolved, but please don’t engage in violence such as land stealing, tree uprooting, water-tank destruction, schoolchildren stoning or shepherd beating. It enrages people.”

So, what you’re saying is that settlers should act how the majority of settlers already act. That was an exceptionally useful and insightful piece of advice.

I must have messed up my

’s above! you get the point ;)

Israel was created by people who worked, sacrificed and died for the simple right to exist – it wasn’t a goddam gift.

The Jews owned some 1,800 km². They were given a 14,000-km² state.

It was a gift.

This is interesting -looks like Hizbollah have been very busy:
‘Egypt -Nasrallah wants to turn us into Lebanon’
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3699950,00.html

When the Corbyns of this world go to Hizbollah tea parties, do they have to get FO clearance first? (Cipriano?) Or am I being naive? I’m just musing over the diplomatic implications of British MPs co-operating with terrorist bodies (and even inviting them to speak in Parliament) now trying to overthrow two countries with which Britain has diplomatic relations.

More parrotized drivel from HasbaraB.

“Its good to know that you accept all the other illegal atrocities I listed, which you didnt object to”

More parrotised drivel from the new Jew-hater on the block.

To people like you, Arab atrocities are legal, right?

Busted and James are two ignorant, Jew-hating and Jew-obsessed trolls, who are too thick to understand the difference between individuals owning property and a nation owning a country.

“When the Corbyns of this world go to Hizbollah tea parties, do they have to get FO clearance first?”

Of course not. This is a free country. Anti-Semitism is legal.

“An ideal solution would be to give the settlers an ultimatum. Leave or become palestinian citizens”

What nonsense. There is no such thing as “Palestinian citizens”, and there won’t be until the Arabs stop trying to kill all the Jews.
Or do you want to make J&S Judenrein?
The fact that you seem to think all J&S Jews are “religious nutjobs” shows how ignorant you are.

What nonsense. There is no such thing as “Palestinian citizens”, and there won’t be until the Arabs stop trying to kill all the Jews.

Hence the ultimatum (at final status talks):

Leave the West Bank (which is to become part of a Palestinian state) for a massive financial incentive or *BECOME* Palestinian citizens – in this new state.

Or do you want to make J&S Judenrein?

No. This is the whole point. The most agreeable way for jews who want to stay in the WB to stay in the WB is for a palestinian state to be established and the jews that want to live outside of Israel’s borders can living within a future Palestine’s borders.

The fact that you seem to think all J&S Jews are “religious nutjobs” shows how ignorant you are.

Excuse me. Stop getting on the defensive! I love Israel and I am under no illusions as to the make-up of the West Bank settler ‘community’. OF COURSE most of them aren’t religious. However, there ARE religious nutjobs (in my opinion) who just take over hilltops and who believe that the land should be settled by jewish people. Well, I don’t think the land is jewish, muslim or anything but I want to see the Palestinians have a viable state. If that means that THEY have to put up with a few 100,000 jews in their new state then so be it!

Seriously: I’m a zionist. I’m a jew. I love Israel but not every single one of the governments policies is correct or fair, in my opinion. So stop having a go at me, I’m not a Nazi and I don’t want to ‘ethnically cleanse’ the WB etc.

Daniel, there is a previous button, y’know.

Corbyn ain’t half as savy as Galloway.

I think I might have misunderstood how to blockquote.

I swear I did everything right that time!

“Refusing to engage with Hamas because of their hateful propaganda ..”

So you think we should talk to Hamas? Fine. Let’s talk to them about their racism and how we completely condemn racist scum. I have no problems with that.

Regards,

Inna

“The Jews owned some 1,800 km². They were given a 14,000-km² state.

It was a gift.”

1. Absolutely nothing was given. When the Arabs attacked the Jewish towns the UN didn’t send forces to defend a single square km in Jewish hands.

2. Alberto the Argentinian Midget confuses land privately owned by the Jews and State’s land. Of the latter, there was plenty in the Mandate. Jews (as Arabs) had rights to them, obviously.

3. How much American land did the Spanish speaking people had in 1491? Obviously zero. How much land they have today in Central and South America? I would say almost all of it. How much of that land was legitimately bought? I would say almost zero. What is Argentina’s right to exist? same number.

“Stop getting on the defensive!”

I am not aware that I was “on the defensive”.
I will have a go at you if you deserve it, and you do. Claiming that all the Jews in J&S are “religious nutjobs” is ignorant bollocks.
Now go and post about something you have some knowledge about.

How much American land did the Spanish speaking people had in 1491? Obviously zero. How much land they have today in Central and South America? I would say almost all of it. How much of that land was legitimately bought? I would say almost zero. What is Argentina’s right to exist? same number.

Fabian Fabian Fabian, what could be less relevant?

HB is PERFECTLY willing to take Argentina away from any Jews that show up, so he’s not a hypocrite ;p

and where did I say that all west bank Jews are religious nutjobs? My cousins certainly aren’t religious!

An ideal solution would be to give the settlers an ultimatum. Leave or become palestinian citizens (with extra security). That way, the religious nutjobs can keep hold of their jewish land (by living on it), the palestinians get a state (albeit with some jews in it) and most of the settlers will probably leave.

Note the bold – most settlers aren’t religious nutjobs, hence would probably leave if given that ultimatum.

It is quite clear that when i said ‘religious nutjobs’ i meant just that. I meant that of those jews who settle in the west bank (or J&S or whatever you wish to call it) there are those who do so because of religious inspiration and believe deeply that they should be able to still live in this land. I believe in their right to believe that. However, if they choose to live there, they don’t need to be Israeli citizens to do so.

“I left Northern Ireland in 1996, yet I still carry some residual suspicion towards Catholics.”

Why should anyone listen to a self-confessed bigoted nutter? You cannot overcome your own predjudice and theink everyone is like that?

“However, if they choose to live there, they don’t need to be Israeli citizens to do so.”

Mmm… Daniel S. Have you heard of double citizenship? Why not give them double Israeli-Palestinian citizenship to those Jews who stay in the West Bank when a P. State is formed?

Fabian, that’s probably a better idea.

There you are:

“An ideal solution would be to give THE settlers an ultimatum. Leave or become palestinian citizens (with extra security). That way, the religious nutjobs can keep hold of their jewish land (by living on it)”.

Sorry, computer problems. Meant to add this:

“most settlers aren’t religious nutjobs, hence would probably leave if given that ultimatum”

So you can’t be a Jewish patriot without being a religious nutjob? Or you are not allowed to live in your own country without being one?

The distinction between East Jm and J&S is spurious. There was no legal authority in J&S pre-1967.

Its good to know that you accept all the other illegal atrocities I listed, which you didnt object to.

Is there such a thing as a legal atrocity? Hateful prick!

Why should anyone listen to a self-confessed bigoted nutter? You cannot overcome your own predjudice and theink everyone is like that?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there is something disreputable about hiding behind a generic handle which shows such contempt for identifying oneself, in some manner, on the Internet.

Secondly, Dave *has* offered some sympathy for individuals who’re exposed only to the aforementioned filth. Lastly, check the meaning of “residual”… it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

*I* have a residual distrust of anyone wearing blue or green scarves, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I detest football (I do, but that’s different).

Sorry, computer problems. Meant to add this:

“most settlers aren’t religious nutjobs, hence would probably leave if given that ultimatum”

So you can’t be a Jewish patriot without being a religious nutjob? Or you are not allowed to live in your own country without being one?

The distinction between East Jm and J&S is spurious. There was no legal authority in J&S pre-1967.

You misunderstand me. If the only 2 options available to settlers were:

a) Become palestinian citizens in a future palestinian state
or
b) Leave the settlements for financial incentives

Then apart from the very religious who believe they have a god-given right to be there, most would probably leave. That was all that I was saying.

Israel has a much better claim to East Jm than it does to the rest of the West Bank, precisely because Jm was never intended to be part of an arab state as such the pals claim to it is spurious.

If you think I’m an anti-Israel bigot because I don’t support settlement expansion and I do support a viable palestinian state then so be it.

Daniel, I appreciate it wasn’t your intention, but please don’t call the Palestinians “Pals”. Plus, could you expand on what was intended for Jerusalem?

Jews drink the blood of Muslims and believe that God wants Jews to hate Muslims, according to a Hamas TV skit translated by Palestine Media Watch. Performed before a live audience at the Islamic University in Gaza, the segment features actors playing a father and son, in traditional Hasidic Jewish garb, discussing their God mandated hatred of Muslims. The skit opens as the father instructs: “We Jews hate the Muslims, we want to kill the Muslims, we Jews want to drink the blood of Muslims.” It is later explained that Jews wash their hands before prayer, not with water, but with Muslims’ blood: “We have to wash our hands with the blood of Muslims.”

Blood libels were a tragic part of Jewish history, as Jews were falsely accused of using the blood of non-Jews for ritual purposes, especially the baking of Matzah for Passover. Blood libels created deep hatred and were an effective trigger for numerous pogroms and the murder of thousands. The Hamas accusation that Jews drink Muslim blood came just before Passover, the anniversary of many horrific blood libels.

So Argentinian Hamas apologizer they are anti-Semites right?

So Argentinian Hamas apologizer they are anti-Semites right?

Is their discourse crudely antisemitic? Yes.

Is their antisemitism a reason not to talk to them? No, that’s not reasonable, unless it can be shown that all countries, governments, parties, etc., that the West talks to are free from hateful speech against other ethnic groups.

On this thread we’ve already seen a recent immigrant to Israel say “I came here to live among Jews, not among Arabs.” The guy came to the region only the day before yesterday, yet he rejects the ones who have been there from time immemorial. Is he alone? No. In state-authorized and -subsidized Jewish schools across Israel the students are taught that Israeli Arabs are “the enemy,” and that they shouldn’t date them. Should Britain sever ties with Israel until such incitement to hate is halted? No.

Neither should it stop talking to Hamas.

Daniel, I appreciate it wasn’t your intention, but please don’t call the Palestinians “Pals”. Plus, could you expand on what was intended for Jerusalem?

What I believe is best for peace and the ‘fairest’ compromise would be for Israel to keep hold of the walled city of Jerusalem but give the palestinians sovereignty of the arab quarter (if the residents so wish – i.e. hold a referendum in the arab quarter). East jerusalem should then go to the palestinians.

As much as I would love Jerusalem to stay united, for the sake of peace we have to accept that we’re going to have to compromise.

Also, sorry about the ‘Pals’. I didn’t realise that was offensive. apologies.

“If you think I’m an anti-Israel bigot because I don’t support settlement expansion and I do support a viable palestinian state then so be it”

You protest too much. I never suggested that you are.

“Israel has a much better claim to East Jm than it does to the rest of the West Bank, precisely because Jm was never intended to be part of an arab state as such the pals claim to it is spurious. ”

Under the Mandate, NO part was intended to be an Arab state. Look it up.
There was a partition plan that the Jews accepted with a heavy heart for pragmatic reasons. However, it never happened for reasons we are all familiar with, being rejected by one of the parties. That plan, therefore, never had any legal existence whatever.

“The guy came to the region only the day before yesterday, yet he rejects the ones who have been there from time immemorial”

This vile anti-Semite rejects the Jewish claim to Israel, but accepts that of the Arabs who conquered it 1500 years after King David.

That they could recycle such vile anti-Semitic garbage like using blood to make matzoh or the Jews collaborated with Hitler shows these people are just scum. It was they who collaborated with Hitler and like the good Germans who supported them, they are legitimate targets

Hasbara Buster is correct, calling Hamas terrorists and thugs is simple minded and incorrect. Better call them for what they are: violent, fascistic jihading vermin who can only create a miserable theocracy devoted to destroying anything not up to their pristine Islamic standards. Their religious bigotry itself is so appalling that they can not be referred to as civilized. Hitler and the Nazis, remember, delivered a lot of good educational, jobs and social services, to “good” Germans of course.

“This vile anti-Semite rejects the Jewish claim to Israel, but accepts that of the Arabs who conquered it 1500 years after King David.”

Well, if you check out Tony Greenstein’s blog, it would appear that David T rejected the very same, when he signed the statement below:

“We, entitled to the privileges accorded under the Israeli Law of Return to Jews and their close relatives, declare our opposition to the state of Israel as a Jewish state and to the Zionist movement. We call on our fellow Jews and their close relatives to join us in making the following statement:

So what’s changed since he signed it?

Under the Mandate, NO part was intended to be an Arab state. Look it up.
There was a partition plan that the Jews accepted with a heavy heart for pragmatic reasons. However, it never happened for reasons we are all familiar with, being rejected by one of the parties. That plan, therefore, never had any legal existence whatever.

I ignore international law on this point. I’m well aware that if we really kept to the letter of the law a palestinian state anywhere west of the river Jordan is illegal. However, I choose not to accept that.

The past 60 years have changed a lot for the region and whilst there may not have been a palestinian people in 1948, in 2009 there most definitely is. These people have national aspirations and have a right to self-determination. Sadly, we have to compromise because of this.

2009 there most definitely is.”

Like most hardcore zionist extremists, DanielS, you are in denial.

Lets have a look at what Israel’s democratically elected Prime Ministers had to say about whether Palestinian people existed in 1948:

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
– David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

Facts are facts, even if you stick your head in the sand.

Ignore BenC’s lies, distortions and smears, especially any that come via Chomsky. Facts are indeed stubborn things, BenC, you should try and find some that are not distorted.

Oh, and BenC, do not think it wise that you do not open your mouth again before you withdraw your head from the sand.

BenC recycles Chomsky’s lies and other hoaxes. That tells us all we need to know about him.

“I ignore international law on this point. I’m well aware that if we really kept to the letter of the law a palestinian state anywhere west of the river Jordan is illegal. However, I choose not to accept that.”

“The past 60 years have changed a lot for the region and whilst there may not have been a palestinian people in 1948, in 2009 there most definitely is. These people have national aspirations and have a right to self-determination. ”

There most certainly is not. It is an invention designed specifically to annihilate Israel.

The fact that you choose to “accept” anti-Israel lies but you “choose” not to accept the real facts, is very revealing.

Superb article, DaveM. My congratulations to you and to Harry’s.

BenC, you said Arab and I said palestinian. There is a big difference.

Nobody can deny that there were arabs that left/were expelled/whatever 1948; what I question is whether there was a national group known as the palestinians or a group of people who had national aspirations to have a ‘palestinian state’. In 1948, I don’t believe that there were. In 2009 there is no denying it.

Someone, whether or not the palestinian people WERE an invention to annihilate Israel there are 4-5m (maybe more) people who genuinely believe that they ARE palestinian and this group of people want a state. So regardless of the origins of the palestinian people, they exist because the palestinians believe that they exist. end of.