Harry's Place

I saw House and thought it was preceded by Friends.

Phew!

“The major problem that Hamas faces is that:
(a) They are a genocidal racist terrorist organisation”

Yes. Just a bit of a minor difficulty, that.
It would be hilarious if it weren’t so damned serious: so-called “parliamentarians” hosting Nazis in the mother of parliaments.

Well it’s no use e-mailing my MP; she’ll be there cheering Mashal on if she gets a whiff of such an event.
I honestly can’t believe how shocking and surrealistic all this is.
I think I need a drink.

Nursey, from the responses I’m receiving from my Westminster representative, he appears A. P. P. A. L. L. E. D.

I will be suggesting he sits in on this..

nor should we forget Meshaal’s Holocaust “revisionism”:

“From aljazeera “Khaled Meshaal also praised Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, for his “courage” in having dismissed the Holocaust as a myth and calling for Israel to be moved out of the Middle East to Europe or North America.”

Only recently, on the 31st of March 2008, Khaled Meshaal tells a Sky interviewer:

“KM: We don’t want to harm any religion in the world. We don’t deny the holocaust.
But, we believe the Zionists have exaggerated the numbers to get sympathy from other nations. But, there is Palestinian suffering caused by Israel.””

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/hamas-and-the-holocaust/
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641311184

A question I asked around the time:

“I just wonder how people, that would rightly reject ANYTHING from David Irving and fellow neo-Nazis, can express any support for Hamas?”

I want to know where Hamas stands on the Irish question; specifically if they support the continued link between Britain and Northern Ireland, favour a united Ireland by consent or adhere to the ultra-Republican view that the British presence is fundamentally illegitimate.

—-> This is where John Alderdice has gone wrong, isn’t it? Not just the view that Northern Ireland is not just the centre of the world (sure we know that’s true) but that everyone is basically like the British and Irish and the world’s conflicts can be viewed and understood through the prism of the Norn Iron.

Fear not; the Hamas Covenant itself gives the clue as to what must be done!

The Freemasons, the Lions and the Rotary must be mobilized and put on a war footing at once!

Ten thousand militant masons, clad in their leather aprons and armed with their silver trowels must form a ring around the Houses of Parliament and defy Clare Short, the thwarted Page Three girl, and Alderdice the traitorous peer!

We must also plant Ghaqaad trees.

Dear Hamas:

About that Charter: I mean, what the fucking fuck?

Storming Parliament with a force of Page Three girls would be a good idea on so many levels I do not know where to begin.

This is Nazism pure and simple. No more need be said. I trust it will be publicised as widely as possible. WAKE UP BRITAIN.

D,

Ya gotta go – Well, if there is a Q&A anyway. Camera and YouTube?????

Mesquito: About that Charter: I mean, what the fucking fuck?
Exactly! (Bet you thought I would never agree with you!)

Can Khalid Meshaal tell us when precisely these actions are to be taken against British citizens, so that they can prepare themselves by getting bombproof glass fitted.

But I thought that Meshaal simply wants to reinstate the complete human being at the centre of society. Who could disagree with that?

If I didn’t know better, David, I’d think you were misusing language as a tool of power and domination in order weaken Islamist identity and to present it as something repellent, irrational and threatening to the West.

We need to construct a different dialogue, reframe language, political philosophy and concepts – new language as starting place?

have they tried NewSpeak?

Meaby Clare Short should invite Rotary

Bill Corr: Not only the Freemasons, the Lions and the Rotary, but all tentacles of the Elders of Zion must be put into action to prevent Meshaal from setting foot in Parliament!

I was just telling my son about all this as the Damian Green thing came on the news.
His suggestion is to change the street signs from Westminster to Westsinister.

To borrow a slogan from the American Civil War:
“We are coming, Father Abraham, three hundred thousand more!”

Where can we demonstrate against these murderous bastards and also against Hamas?

What’s the betting Galloway shows up to Parliament for the first time this century?

Islamists are in favour of reinstating the complete human being at the centre of society

Very poor PR then, as in this country Islamists have been seen scattering bomb fragmented human beings all over the place.

I am going to mobilise 10,000 anti-Nazis to march on the House of Lords.

Can you hear UAF sing?
I can’t hear a fucking thing ……

(Nor ‘Hope Not Hate’ for that matter ……)

If I didn’t know better, David, I’d think you were misusing language as a tool of power and domination in order weaken Islamist identity and to present it as something repellent, irrational and threatening to the West.

You’ve got to laugh, though, haven’t you?

The whole gameplan of Conflicts Forum is based around getting people to forget what Hamas say and do, but their protegees keep mucking up and rabbiting on about freemasons and swords and stuff like that. They’re like a pander, engaged in the futile task of covering up their girl’s nakedness with a pair of feather dusters.

The thing is, they’re actually doing pretty well. The whole plan is working. They can get Annie Lennox and Brian Eno up onto a platform, at which speaker after speaker cheers for Hamas while slagging off the PLO for being prepared to negotiate a settlement, and then Michael Rosen gets up and reads a poem, and nobody says a single thing about the fact that the crowd is shouting “Allah Akbar” and “From the River to the Sea…”

Seriously though, this Conflicts Forum meeting is going to be a fucking freakshow. I can picture in now. Galloway harrumphing. Corbyn lurking in a corner. Short twitching. Alderdice searching vainly for the remenants of his party.

Grotesque.

what exactly is the defenition of Islamist and what is the difference between Islamists and Muslims?

To Genuine Antiracist – is an Islamist party on the verge of winning UK seats in the European parliament? No? Then I think it’s right and proper that Hope not Hate/Searchlight concentrate their energies on the BNP. I agree that in the longer-term the anti-racist and anti-fascist movement should take into account Islamist politics but language of priorities etc.

Anyway, that Conflicts Forum programme contains some is jampacked with all kinds of terrifying mentalism, but out of many disturbing statements this one caught my eye especially:

“The “peace process industry” and its associated discourse has caused major problems for activist movements – We need to expose the terminology and discourse of the ‘peace process industry’ – to expose its inherent racism, neo-colonialism and the fact that it seeks to camouflage underlying Western domination.”

So basically their hatred not only covers those with a ‘pro-Israeli’ position but they also have a problem with those moderate types who like to think a peace can one day be negotiated in the Middle East. ARGH

We are coming, Father Abraham, three hundred thousand more!

Leave the smurfs out of this.

What is it about Clare Short and Islamofascists; is it just the usual generic boilerplate Lefty Orwellian authoritarian predilection of yore, or are we dealing with something that speaks to something a little more Freudian?

I mean the woman always looks so desperately bitter, as if she’s just sucked a lemon and swallowed a wasp. Is there something we should know?

In fact, I find that I cannot listen to Annie Lennox anymore. I used to love her. Now I can only think of how she is an enabler of antisemitism.

I am not kidding when I tell you I finally understand my parents’ disgust for Wagner’s music.

“what exactly is the defenition of Islamist and what is the difference between Islamists and Muslims?”

Boroumand and Boroumand in their essay ‘Islam, Terror, and Democracy’ define Islamism as a sort of “degenerate Leninism”; a totalitarian revolutionary political ideology which is drawn from religious interpretation and aimed exclusively at Muslims. Their argument is quite convincing.

Lots of Muslims have no problem separating their religious views from their political outlook.

What are you talking about?

“What is it about Clare Short and Islamofascists”

Her Birmingham constituency might play a part…

I’ve just made the mistake of reading their entire website on a full stomach. David T. -you really should have put a health warning on that recomendation.
Once I got to the list of the advisory board, everything became crystal clear.
Our old mate Tamimi, an ex-Guantanamo detainee, and the director of Friends of Al Aqsa Leicester amongst others.
OK, thanks. Got it now.

They can get Annie Lennox and Brian Eno up onto a platform,

Is that right? Lennox I’m not surprised: she’s a perfect storm of money derived from other peoples’ talent and the self-obsessed vapid stupidity that comes from undeserved fame. Next to Annie Lennox, Madonna is the next Germaine Greer.

But Eno? Usually he’s pretty smart: in the context of the underserving getting rich from other peoples’ talent, Eno often provides the talent (see U2). He spoke at the Convention on Modern Liberty thingie and was one of the most compelling presenters. I didn’t know he was an apologist for violent nutters, and I’m genuinely surprised if that’s true.

Yes, I’m sorry about Eno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NOYOZzEu-4

To Genuine Antiracist – is an Islamist party on the verge of winning UK seats in the European parliament? No? Then I think it’s right and proper that Hope not Hate/Searchlight concentrate their energies on the BNP. I agree that in the longer-term the anti-racist and anti-fascist movement should take into account Islamist politics but language of priorities etc.

Precisely.

The first thing to say about Hope Not Hate is that the Islamism thing really is a sideshow, at the moment. The BNP is the priority.

The second thing is that it is not true that Searchlight has been entirely silent on Islamism. Take this for example:

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=141

Two sides of the same coin

No matter how small an organisation is, its ideas can often resonate well beyond its membership or even its fellow travellers. This is especially the case when there are no other organisations providing more sensible explanations; where there is a political vacuum. That is why the ideas of both small Islamist and small fascist groups influence a considerable number of people outside their membership. In the case of the BNP this is evident from the fact that even in places where it has few members it can often get a reasonable vote.

The BNP has begun to symbolise opposition to a multiracial and multicultural society, while Islamic fundamentalism articulates alienation and disen-chantment with a Western society which its adherents believe discriminates against them. Yet many of the more vocal people who articulate support for these groups might never actually have come into physical contact with them.

It is ironic that these people, who would no doubt consider themselves diametrically opposed to one another, believe in pretty much the same things. Both the Islamists and the fascists believe that Western governments are under the control of Jews through Zionism. They also believe that communism and capitalism are tools with which the Jews control the world. They both disseminate the same texts such as the Russian tsarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and The International Jew by the US industrialist Henry Ford. In Britain there are two main sources for these publications, mail order from fascist groups and some Islamic bookshops.

The BNP and Islamist groups also have a symbiotic relationship, their activities fuelling each other. Racism from organisations such as the BNP, high votes for fascists and racist attacks all create a climate in which some young Asians in particular feel that they are victims of, and in conflict with, wider society. In turn, Islamist groups preach that Muslims not only face racism in Britain, but are oppressed across the world, particularly in Palestine and Iraq. Islamist groups encourage their followers not to see themselves as British citizens, but as Muslims first, which is of course exactly how the BNP and other racists want them to be seen.

The BNP, for its part, points to the extreme Islamist groups – which declare themselves the true face of Islam – and portrays all Muslims as fanatics, poised at any moment either to attack white youths on the street or to carry out bombings.

Around 2005, Searchlight was subjected to a SWP-Socialist Action campaign of vilification: the essence of which was that they were “Zionists” and “Islamophobes”. They walked out of Unite Against Fascism, for that reason.

http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/pages/Politics/UAF.html

Now, what has happened in the last 4 years is that UAF has squandered its time, organising pop concerts with druggie singers, holding rallies featuring Daud Abdullah, and generally posing around. Oh yeah: and popping up on the odd occasion to scuffle with BNPers like louts.

By contrast, Searchlight has been concentrating very hard on building a workable campaign against the BNP. It is extremely well respected in the labour movement. It is basically the only organisation mounting an anti-fascist campaign in this country.

I think that there is real scope for matters to change: but there’s no value in talking about anything until the Euro Elections are done and dusted.

xyzzy
16 April 2009, 9:38 pm

We are coming, Father Abraham, three hundred thousand more!

Leave the smurfs out of this.

———–

lol!

“Now, what has happened in the last 4 years is that UAF has squandered its time, organising pop concerts with druggie singers, holding rallies featuring Daud Abdullah, and generally posing around. Oh yeah: and popping up on the odd occasion to scuffle with BNPers like louts.”

Heh heh heh…

Of course, the reason Islamism is presented as “something repellent, irrational and threatening to the West” is because that is precisely the way it represents itself, because that is what it is.

How seriously are these people taken, really? I mean, the natural inclination is to get very angry and agitated. And I am. But one wonders if its sometimes better to step down a gear because this kind of transparent nutbar-ism is fairly obvious. Surely?

None of this is good for my blood pressure, you know. Also, every time I read this sort of thing I get the strong urge to say something profoundly Daily Mail-ish like “treason is still on the statute book, you know”.

I must clearly engage in a jihad.

One to calm my inner right-wing bubbling intolerance, that is. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Allright, all of you:

can you think of any reason NOT to call Britain an antisemitic country now?

Face it. THat is what Britain is now.

Omri,

if you’re in the habit of making sweeping generalisations, then I suppose nothing will stop you?

but remember that approach cuts both ways? and if you don’t like sweeping generalisations on other countries, then it might not be a good idea to start

“Britain is the sort of country where a legislator can invite the head of a racist, genocidal theocratic terrorist group to lecture in an august forum, and in fact just did.”

Sweeping.

Also true.

Well, look on the brightside.
The Labour party is about to be bankrupt, and then be torn between the BNP and Respect/SWP and Islamic Jihad.
Soon the Adults will be in charge and then the forensic accounts and the serious fraud squad will be damned busy.
You think that the BBC, The Independent and the Guardian are going have a fun time after 20 years of dissing the Tory’s and 12 years of financial incest.

In addition, we may be facing the last chance for a two state solution.

The really big laugh is the push to get Hamas involved in the name of promoting a two-state solution. Hamas have consistently made absolutely clear that they will never, never accept an Israeli state. And that, together with their undying commitment to terrorism in many and varied forms, remains a reason why they remain excluded from official negotiations.

The one good thing about this is that at least Clare Short no longer sits as a Labour MP.

“The Labour party is about to be bankrupt, and then be torn between the BNP and Respect/SWP and Islamic Jihad.”

Yes. From a moderate perspective this looks very much like the bright side.

Can you please tell me the secret of your incisive political commentary, Doc? I’d really appreciate a few pointers, y’know?

This is all Tariq Ramadan.

This is all his rebranding.

This is exactly what I heard him say in Glasgow to a mixed audience.

‘Spirituality and religion… are values in action’.

‘How do you teach values?’

‘Stick to your ethics’.

And most scarily:

‘Islamic law can be harmonised with the law of the land’.

‘Are you a Muslim? This question is not about identity but loyalty’.

‘We need to construct a different dialogue, reframe language, political philosophy and concepts – new language as starting place?’

This is all pure Ramadan. I’ve heard it all often before. Verbatim. Same stuff: ‘discourse’, ‘reframe language’. Yuk.

Ben

“Yes. From a moderate perspective this looks very much like the bright side.”

All it means is that the Lib-Dems replace the labour Party as the center left party in the UK. Given all that the Labour party have done in the past 100 years, we should all cheer.

The unions will sever their links, and money, to the Labour party when the government falls. Why bribe them if they can’t deliver?

The BNP is getting its support from former Labour supporters, not former Tories.

The Respect/Islamo-fascist alliance is getting its support from former Labour supporters, not former Tories.

I’m pretty sure this video has been posted here @HP before or at least some of you are well aware of Cooke’s thesis (perhaps you have read some of his incomprehensible, jumbled writing?):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4510378317561065434

It’s from 2006, so nothing new here, but it gives you a solid insight into the aspirations, methodology and motivations for Crooke’s idiocy.

When I first watched this video, I had to restrain the urge to defenestrate my computer as Crooke refers to WW2 as the ‘last European civil war’.

Well done David T and the others at HP for continuing to expose his vacuous ideology.

“Islamists are parodied as irrational luddites fighting against the inevitable march of progress and modernity, in a futile attempt to shape society in the mould of seventh century Arabia.”

But isn’t this precisely what they are? Is there something I’ve been missing, or is this simply something the over-sophisticated thinker of the screed has somehow overlooked? David is spot on when he points out the IRA were basically a secular nationalist movement, whereas Islamists are more or less their opposites – theocratic pan nationalist religious fundamentalists. Claire Short is a cretin, and has always been a cretin – her intellectual arrogance overwhelming her judgement time and again. No wonder she is so easily manipulated – from T Blair to Hamas. The definition of useful idiot.

I have now become a convert to Islamic fundamentalism, due to their aim to put the human being at the centre of all things.

We will proceed in this noble task as follows:

Indoctrination is the only road to humanity.

We pretend some sort of harmony with fake Western human fools so as to get them by the crotch.

Transparent lies are the highroad to humanity. Everything that serves Allah will do. It is essential to alternate between lying and telling the truth, a form of higher dialectics, something Westerners find hard to understand, but we are pleased and amazed by the number of them that have learned this principle.

We venerate our women. Ill-treating them, beating and raping them, humiliating them, is a process of purification. Our Taliban brothers in Afghanistan are exemplary in this, as a French doctor in that country testifies.

Haven’t you seen all the women in Burkahs at our demonstrations? They desire the martyrdom that opens the gates of heaven.

Of course, Family Honour is central to our concept of the human being. Whoever defiles this honour must die, or be publicly beaten.

There is a distinction between being human and being too human, for which Westerners have a prediliction. It must be eliminated.

We have a lot of trouble with what the Westerners call gays. We eliminate them, left, right and centre, but they keep popping up again.

But being one of the latter myself, I offer myself as a sacrifice to the all powerful and all merciful Allah. I would like to hang on a very tall impressive crane to make a sublime example of myself, a beacon of light in a very dark and evil world.

***********
Like Israelinurse, I need a drink. It’s far to early in the morning for spirits, but just a teeny teeny sip of medicinal brandy to calm my nerves? Go on! Yes! I’ll have it right now.

Had it neat. Feel better.

“Also, every time I read this sort of thing I get the strong urge to say something profoundly Daily Mail-ish”

“Can you please tell me the secret of your incisive political commentary, Doc?”

I am sure his secret does not consist of imitating your absurd sloganeering.

Islamists are parodied as irrational luddites: Irrational, yes, but they love technology. All of the plotters of death including the 9/11 ones were trained in areas like engineering. I would have said that it is their dearth of interest and intellect in the humanities that the problem lies. Then I remembered Tariq Ramadan.

“(iv) Challenging the Western allegation of Islamist ‘irrationality’ – that is asserted on the premise of the West’s own category of reasoning being unassailable by virtue of its empirical nature and ‘facticity’.”

I looked up facticity on Wikipedia and am none the wiser. As a philisophical concept, it does not seem synonymous with empiricism or positivism. Can anyone tell me what it is intended to mean in this context?
Mind you, if anyone collared me with: “Islamists are in favour of reinstating the complete human being at the centre of society … what’s wrong with that?” I would also have to respond with: I don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

Bill,

You are entirely correct that Alderdice is viewing Hamas through the prism of Norn Iron. That wouldn’t be so much of a problem if the elements required to make that parallel accurate were present. The problem is that they are not. The critical difference is that the NI ‘peace process’ had more than just facilitators like Hume bringing the terrorists in from the cold. It also had active leaders in the terrorist camp such as Adams who had perceived the ineffectiveness of their strategy of violence and were prepared to change that strategy and move away from terrorism, in the attempt to achieve their political aims. So far that is not true of Hamas.

If Alderdice wants to encourage ‘moderates’ to influence Hamas away from anti-semitic terrorism, he first has to get Hamas into a position where the potential moderates are confronted with the futility and bankruptcy of their ‘military’ pretensions, and will act accordingly as a result. At the moment, I suspect Hamas leaders and sympthisers are still embedded in the illusion that any progress they make (such as the invitation by Alderdice) is a result of their existing strategy, and there is no necessity to change it.

If you want to convert a fascist to democratic pluralism, you need to start with a fascist who is actually interested in being converted.

“Little of this Islamist intellectual challenge is heard in the West however as the public discourse suggests that there is no intellectual Islamist case to hear –”

Well, I think that about sums it up. I haven’t yet heard a coherent Islamist argument. In fact, I think “Islamist intellectual challenge” is a contradiction in terms.

“Islamists are parodied as irrational luddites fighting against the inevitable march of progress and modernity, in a futile attempt to shape society in the mould of seventh century Arabia.”

I agree with every part of that sentence but I would knock out the words “parodied as”.

“Secondly, the Islamist intellectual response is rarely heard in the West because its metaphors, its iconography and its category of reasoning, as presently formulated, find little resonance in secular societies. It simply does not generate the ‘oh, I get it now!’ response from audiences.”

The reason for this is that *it doesn’t make sense*.

Interesting that their solution to the unpopularity of Hamas is not to create powerful intellectual arguments but to “spin” their way out of trouble.

Incidentally, I think I will save this link- the argument style looks suspiciously close to that of Seumas Milne and Jonathan Steele.

I found all this worrying until I reached: Use influential individuals – key Muslim personalities e.g. Djab Abu Jajah; Salma Yacoub –

They ain’t out of the woods yet.

I like the idea that John Gray could help to give Hamas legitimacy.

“Islamists are in favour of reinstating the complete human being at the centre of society … what’s wrong with that?”

The detail.

This is not a meeting to develop understanding. It is a programme of action.

“One aspect of this has been to develop ways to challenge the defamation and distortion of Islamist identity that has arisen as a result of framing the debate on Islamism in the West with the language of ‘terrorism’, ‘hostility towards modernity’, ‘cultural backwardness’ and ‘hatred of Western values’. Language has been deployed in this way not to inform or communicate. It is language misused as a tool of power and domination in order weaken Islamist identity and to present it as something repellent, irrational and threatening to the West.”

Criticism of terror attacks of the west– stretching back to Dawson’s Field in 1970 – are “defamation”. The issue is certainly “modernity”. It is modernity which is the conduit through which the exchanges and interplay between the non-theocratic world connects to that of Islam. Technological progress has impacted upon western societies since the evolution of railways in the 19th century and accelerated in the post 1945 world in what some call the ‘third industrial revolution’. It is no coincidence that Islamist terror has greatly increased in its reach into the west by these very means, particularly air travel and the internet. Both are quintessential ‘modernist’ products.

Islamism grips those countries which are non-industrial or have never industrialised. It is forgotten by many that ‘western’ is not a geographic term in this context; Japan was westernised early but now it is the rise of China and, from the Islamist perspective, the rise of India which causes the greatest pressure to come to bear upon the medieval mind set graced in this document by the term “philosophy”.

“The secondary purpose of the use of such language in the West is to erase the intellectual content of Islamist thinking in its challenges to modernism and contemporary Western society that has sought to provide another vision for the global future based on reason and the philosophical traditions of Islam.”

The primary purpose of such language is clear enough.

“Little of this Islamist intellectual challenge is heard in the West …”

On the contrary, it is difficult to avoid. But what is this ‘intellectual challenge’? Catholicism which also raises many questions of social and public policy in the context of western society, is strangely overlooked. However, what many here are asking is how to reconcile this call to embrace Islamist thinking at ‘face value’ sits with female roles, so expanded by modernism. Surely, Ms Short’s own career and public persona are a riposte if not a direct challenge to those same values? Or, is it that for the time being she is useful?

“We need to construct a different dialogue, reframe language, political philosophy and concepts – new language as starting place? We need to think critically how the West can learn from the values and the notion of society that Hezbollah and Hamas have at the centre of their philosophy – how can we re-formulate Islamist thoughts and ideas in a way that will resonate with people in the West who see shortcomings in their own society?”

This has been done. George Orwell’s “Nineteen Eighty Four” will explain the concept of ‘doublethink’ more succinctly than I can.

“We need to develop language and slogans that we pro- XXX and not always anti- XXX.”

These last two passages (I have restrained myself) show more completely just what is going on. This is not a meeting about an exchange of opinion or a fact finding endeavour. It is a campaign and the object of that campaign is to rescue Islamist politics from itself. The last quote above could be from an advertising company’s ‘brain storming’ session intent on re-branding a failed product. Identical material must be knocked out by account executives every week.

This endeavour will fail. The basic cultural assumptions which define and articulate Islam are completely at odds with modernism and the two ‘philosophies’ are on divergent courses in human history. Modern technology makes it difficult if not impossible for there to be a separation between them so conflicts will arise. Westernised people no longer, if they once did believe so, that it is natural to give over their intellects to a supreme religious ruler whose only guide for society is what lies between the covers of a book which can neither be completely understood nor re-written. The rest flows from this.

The last quote above could be from an advertising company’s ‘brain storming’ session intent on re-branding a failed product.

Mark Perry – along with Crooke, the other half of CF – is an advertising/PR guy.

Yes, this is all about marketing.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hezbollah_e010.htm

Just as Egypt gets worried about Hamas, Claire Short sucks up to them ……….. how typical ……….

Alistair Crooke an advertising/PR guy? He’s ex (or officially ex) MI6 and also a former EU apparatchik who inter alia “advised” at the Madrid Conference on the ME. It’s true he’s CF’s most widely used mouthpiece, regularly dropping articles into the British press and appearing on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme and the like to tell you what nice misunderstood guys Hamas are, and always drawing on his supposed authority from his former roles. But perhaps that’s what MI6 is these days.

Most serious commentators now believe that there can be no peace in the Middle East without talking to Hamas.

Oooh, for the first time in my life, I’ve been defined as a frivolous commentator. Whoo hoo!

Utterly disgusting – I voted Labour all my adult life for reasons of wanting a fairer society and look what happens. Scum like Short co habit and act as apologists for clerical facsism.

The question is what can be done about it? Something needs to be done about it and fast.

Amie-
“(iv) Challenging the Western allegation of Islamist ‘irrationality’ – that is asserted on the premise of the West’s own category of reasoning being unassailable by virtue of its empirical nature and ‘facticity’.”

I took this to be a reference to the conflict between the Western way of relating to the world in general from a scientific starting point as opposed to the ‘creationist’ viewpoint which has no need for such niceties as proof.
It’s only a personal view, but I feel that this is rather dangerously fertile ground in current Western society. Since coming to the UK I am constantly amazed by the number of intelligent people living in one of the most developed countries in the world who seem to have abandoned the empiric way of relating to life’s questions -eg. MMR.
Combined with the potentially dangerous multicultural attitude of ‘everything is acceptable’ it is hardly surprising that some people in the West are apparantly no longer capable of distinguishing between mythical folk tales and hard facts.
The above paragraph is, from my viewpoint, a further attempt to pull the rug of certainty as to what is right and what is wrong both from a factual, historical point of view and from a moral point of view from under Western feet.
Discrediting facts and logic as ‘Western imperialism’ serves the Islamist agenda and when I see white middle-class, middle-aged Brits carrying Hizbollah placards, I see just how effective this tactic is.

David,
Are you going to go and report back? That would be especially useful for those of us living up here in frozen Svarlbard (Ok, Leeds) and almost always miss this London Village madness!

N8-)

I am sorry to disappoint you, Judy. Being defined by an idiot like Short as “frivolous” is meaningless. She wouldn’t know the difference between a serious commentator and a hole in the ground.

I dont think you can stop visitors going to this event – Portcullis House committee rooms are open to anyone in my experience – MPs, Peers, the public… Just like the house of commons gallery. If anyone reading this wanted to go in and sit at the back of the room there is nothing to stop them. You don’t have to explain yourself as your enter the security check at Portcullis House. It’s a common practise to say a discussion with ‘MPs and Peers’ on invitations… it makes the members of the group invited (ie. members of Conflict Forum) feel more important. I advise anyone who wants to go along to head to Portcullis house, maybe 20 minutes before the event (to give time for security checks etc). First floor. I will be there. Its not often you get a chance to ask a member of Hamas to explain himself.

“It’s only a personal view, but I feel that this is rather dangerously fertile ground in current Western society. Since coming to the UK I am constantly amazed by the number of intelligent people living in one of the most developed countries in the world who seem to have abandoned the empiric way of relating to life’s questions ..” – Israelinurse.

Agreed. This document has some echoes in it of “Cultish” thinking; one of the most prominent of which I will not name since its adherents are notably contentious, but well known internationally. The same recourse is made to the scheme of language but not the meanings of rationale thought. However, think this through.

The kind of actuality proposed is simply unattractive to people who have experienced the open society from birth, apart from anything else. Embracing a theocratic state is not simply a question of pretending to go into a trace at the sound of a sittar or wearing red clothing. It would be a root and branch re-ordering of every aspect of society. As an ambition these proposals are reminiscent of communism in the west at its most ambitious (or blind); or, a revival of 17th century Puritanism. Nothing like it is ever going to happen. People may think about it but once the condition of actually having to conform to anything which could plausibly be termed ‘Islamist’ came to be faced, then the enthusiasm will perish just as bell bottomed trousers and flowery shirts did before. The west is much less ideological than fashionable. It is a place where many ‘dabble’ but soon switch to another fad.

This is not to say one cannot be discontented with much in contemporary western society. Various ‘absolutist’ ideas to reign in personal behaviour or social malaise have been advanced in western Europe since 1789; few have lasted and all the major efforts – Fascism, Stalinism, Nazism come to mind – produced conflicts and carnage which makes by comparison public drunkenness or house burglary something of a hallmark less of a dysfunctional society than an open one.

Secondly, the Islamist intellectual response is rarely heard in the West because its metaphors, its iconography and its category of reasoning, as presently formulated, find little resonance in secular societies. It simply does not generate the ‘oh, I get it now!’ response from audiences.

Hmmm, I must try to bear that in mind next time I see the slogans and hear the chants on an Al Quds Day demonstration or a Stop the War demo, or read the latest speeches by Ahmadinejad, Knomeinei and my favourite, the Hamas “Foreign Minister” Mohamed Al-Zatar.

I have had many “oh I get it now” moments with Hamas.

Unfortunately, none are of the sort envisaged by Conflicts Forum.

I was wondering whether to bother to notify my MP about this latest, as last time I wrote, about Moussawi, (following on the urging by HP- in the words of Mandela, I am a loyal and disciplined cadre) Dismore took 3 weeks to respond, enclosing a letter from Phil Woolas.

But then I read this in the JC today:

The government spent more than £20,000 of taxpayers’ money sending civil servants on a course at which Hizbollah’s media relations officer was due to be a keynote speaker. In the event, Ibrahim Moussawi was barred from entering Britain by the Home Office…
Mr Woolas was writing to Hendon MP Andrew Dismore, who had contacted Home Secretary Jacqui Smith expressing a constituent’s concerns.”

Ha, that’s me that is!

http://www.thejc.com/articles/fury-over-taxpayer-cash-hizbollah-seminar

Israelinurse: Facticity ought to mean what you describe, because it sounds like facts, but according to wikipedia, its meanings include:

“.that which resists explanation and interpretation in Dilthey and Neo-Kantianism.
Heidegger discusses facticity as the thrownness (Geworfenheit) of individual existence..” Facticity is something that already informs and has been taken up in existence, even if it is unnoticed or left unattended. As such, facticity is not something we come across and directly behold. In moods, for example, facticity has an enigmatic appearance, which involves both turning toward and away from it. For Heidegger, moods are conditions of thinking and willing to which they must in some way respond. The thrownness of human existence (or Dasein) is accordingly disclosed through moods.”

All I can say is, I don’t think any of this is going to be at all helpful to the Cause in its “oh I get it now” drive.

“”I have had many “oh I get it now” moments with Hamas.

Unfortunately, none are of the sort envisaged by Conflicts Forum”"

Me too. I don’t think they would like me much and neither would Clare Short/Corbyn/Galloway. Now those thoughts have really cheered me up after a long day analysing regional planning policy (I know, I know, very rock and roll!)

Amie, I received what I assume is was a similar letter, by way of my M.P., from Shahid Malik who also spoke of “tension between the Muslim and Jewish communities”. Hezbollah, of course, was killing American and French troops long before they got into the Jew-murder thing in a big way, and what’s this with doing the Islamist line of representing all Muslims as one poorly defined homogenous mass?

I’ve asked Martin Linton MP if he is going but I expect to wait weeks or months for a reply. To be fair, he probably won’t see the invitation until it is too late.

My M.P., alas, has a speaking engagement that evening.

Alec is, of course, jolly well aware that Shahid Malik’s name means Martyr King in Arabic.

Just saying.

Have the Conflicts Forum chappies read this?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3702604,00.html

Nursey, I don’t know if you saw my message earlier – e-mail harryblog at gee mail dot com and I’m sure it’ll be passed to me.

Trundlemaster @ 17 April 2009, 10:31 am

“Utterly disgusting – I voted Labour all my adult life for reasons of wanting a fairer society and look what happens. Scum like Short co habit and act as apologists for clerical facsism.”

Clare Short actually hasn’t been a member of the Labour Party for some time.

Word is that the previous Chief Whip (Jacqui Smith, MP for Redditch, you may have heard of her) took a dim view of former Ministers failing to attend Parliament and vote. C Short took umbrage and took herself off.

Alec -done.

It’s classic deflection. Remember in George Orwell’s 1984 how the war against Eurasia(?) rumbled on all the time, and how ‘internal threats’ were dealt with, it’s the same with the Palestinians. To stop their people asking awkward questions about wealth distribution or educational policy or healthcare they have to keep them on a war footing. I don’t suppose the leaders are short of a bob or two either.

This is gobsmacking stuff – a classic PR hustle. Weirdly, it looks like they’re stealing techniques from the hard-right of the US Republican Party, but using them to rebrand a radical Islamist terror group. Reminds me a hell of a lot of Frank Luntz, and his “words that work”: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0226-27.htm

Two years ago I went to a lecture by Alderdice about the psychology of terrorism. It was interesting enough, particularly when he outlined why the I/P situation is a lot more toxic than the Northern Irish one was.

Why, then, the volte face?

This reminds me of Clare Short’s previous, albeit comparatively minor, faux pas when she invited Hizb-ut-Tahrir to pretend gentrification and take tea with her in the Commons. The irony of the situation was lost on her, no doubt – that members of a group who, if it got into power, would abolish Parliament, were actually pretending to be nice people and take tea with her.

I have written to my MP. He’s in enough of a hole already where my vote is concerned, so his attendance and confirmation that he will ask some awkward questions might just raise him in my estimation.

I am not holding my breath, however…

So, Israel is the target of missiles. From where? Dunno. Just missiles randomly fired from places unknown by people unknown for reasons unknown.

Maybe someone could ask if the Hamas respresentatives still want to drink the blood of the Jews?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCszg6Geq6E

“In 2006, Hamas won more than 65.2 per cent of the vote in the Palestinian parliamentary elections”.

Seems that Conflicts Forum have started their pro-Hamas make-over already. “When talking about the Palestinian parlaimentary elections don’t forget to add 20.7 per cent on to Hamas’s share of the popular vote”.

When one see the British gov’t hosting events like this one just has to ask the question: Would there be a chance, or any possibility at all, of bringing back the Luftwaffe?

Cos yeah, John P, good upright Nazis would be better than our Islamocraven ZaNu-Lab overlords, right?

Twat.

Also:

“In 2006, Hamas won more than 65.2 per cent of the vote in the Palestinian parliamentary elections”.

At least they’re referring to them as parliamentary elections, rather than (by implication) dictator-for-life-ignore-the-constitution-and-seize-executive-power elections, which the usual Hamas sympathisers apparently saw them as.

“how the West can learn from the values and the notion of society that Hezbollah and Hamas have at the centre of their philosophy”

– are you serious? Are they serious? I just read yesterday a report that during and after the Gaza war, Hamas killed more than 30 people, and maimed and tortured dozens of others. Is that what they have in mind, sort of?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1239710740363

PetraMB – This is exactly the point. Whatever they might say, or even think, about “notions of society” and humanity, superior rights of women etc., the fact is that no Islamic society has ever solved the problem of legitimisation of, and restraints on, authority. All Muslim societies are tyrannies, whatever they might say or think, because this problem has not been solved. So all Islamism involved support for unbridled one-man, or one-group, leadership, or, as we know it is this part of the world, fascism.

Anyone who goes, give ‘em hell.

It’s reputed to be a damp squib, David.

Don’t joke too freely about drinking blood, “J” !

I remember the press photos (1971) when the assassins of Wasfi Tal – then Jordanian PM and still remembered as an efficient and ruthless doer – rather than flee the scene as the police crashed in, calmly knelt to lick his blood off the portico steps of the conference centre on which they had shot him.

The problems are made by those who find God and lose their manners in process to niggle like a sergeant taking kit inspection yet waffle about spirituality and “soul” . These are delightful and nebulous – but for off duty hours. That is why the first clause of Magna Carta is, “That the English Church shall be free.”

Then the problem was kingly interference; since it has often been the other way round. The West streaked ahead of the Moslem World [Turks, Moguls & Arabs] since the 1500’s precisely pro rata to getting clergy out of government – as the US Constitution was first to make into a principle of government.

When we are at work or business what matters is: who does what? where? and when? for how much?and who gets paid? how? I have never known Moslems to be different. In the failed and failing states of Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan for starters, most are very keen on being paid up-front in case the cheque never gets into the post to begin with.

In pre-Nasser days when there were three stars on the Egyptian flag British troops in Egypt referred to them as: mafish, ma’alish and bakhshish. When I told my parents – former British Middle East types – they giggled heartily as the three words translate: [there] ain’t, [try] tomorrow, and [give us a] tip.

Putting justice at the centre of politics is what we have been trying for since before Magna Carta which was a re-assertion of traditional values in all senses. Justice costs. Justice has profits. Who writes the process rules? appoints the judges? and collects? Perhaps we should continue to leave out philosophy and stick to the brass tacks of giving everybody a respectable interest in society – but not an overweening interest…

As I have already seen In the Loop, I may go to this tomorrow.

Dear God, the downfall of the British Left.

“In 2006, Hamas won more than 65.2 per cent of the vote in the Palestinian parliamentary elections.”

The invitation itself contains a lie. This number is routinely bandied about in an attempt to show that Hamas is more widely supported by Palestinians than is the case, and thus “legitimate”. The reality is that Hamas won only about 45% of the total vote. The Palestinian assembly elects half of its seats from a strict proportional representation, and half from direct constituency elections. Because Hamas did extremely well in winning many of the constituency seats, their percentage of the seats in the Palestinian legislative assembly is much higher than their percentage of the popular vote.

Perhaps someone should point this out to Clare Short et al.

Hypocrytical British Parliamentarians are offering a platform to Khaled Mashaal, despite him advocating the Jihadi genocidal agenda of Hamas were Article Seven of the Hamas “Covenant” clearly calls for the killing of all Jews on this planet. Geert Wilders, on the other hand, does not advocate violence, but simply warns against the Jihadi genocidal agenda. The British Government chooses to prevent Wilders from expressing his views. May God Save the Queen from the hypocricy of Her Majesty’s Government!

HAMAS as a “Democratic Liberation Movement”

” the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the
realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how
long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless
him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until
Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when
the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The
stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla,
there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”…”
(English translation at:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

For those horrified by news clips and videos
from the recent conflict in Gaza, there are
simple points to remember:

Hamas chose to operate against the Israelis
from civilian populated areas, schools,
mosques and hospitals making extensive use
of human shields.

The amount of force and munitions expended
by Israel in Gaza would have sufficed to
kill a quarter of a million civilians, had
Israel chosen to deliberately target any
non-combatant civilians.

In view of Hamas, allegedly supported by
a “Democratic Majority” of Gazans repeatedly
stated commitment to genocide against the
Jews, it can be fairly stated that Israel
had used a disproportionately underwhelming
force.

To gain a better understanding of the
background to the conflict, please
follow the links below:

The root causes of the Gaza conflict in less than 6 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrmhmXwTFWA

It is not about land or occupation
Egyptian Cleric – Genocide The Jews
(Jan 2009)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNj3xQRBl6U

Muhammad was the First Islamic Terrorist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ5yycE44qU

Who is Hamas?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgW3zFEYiFQ

Hamas plans for the Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeAVBYAbn0

“Occupation” is not really the reason
only the pretext.

Hamas children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR8Tfd0i4lY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y

Suicide Bombing In Islamabad
Where are the “Zionist Occupiers” to blame?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXZ881teNZc

Karbala Arbaáin – suicide attack Feb 13/2009
surprise surprise
Not a “Zionist” or a “Palestinian” in sight!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xHaiwO7K4

Religious tolerance Islamic Style:

Sunnys go for the Shites. Shites go
sunny-side up.

Shited go for the Sunnys, and Sunnys go
belly-up.

When it comes to religious tolerance, there
are plenty of (mainly newly erected) mosques
in Eurabia and Islamerica.

There are many churches and mosques in
Israel. Some of the mosques, though,
were built by Muslims over former churches
during periods of Muslim occupation.

In 1948, The Hassan Bek mosque minaret on
the fringes of Jaffa and overlooking
Tel-Aviv was used by Arab snipers against
Isrelis. The “Irgun” captured the mosque
and planted demolition charges there.
This was stopped by Menachem Begin, their
then commander.

Palestinian Muslim militants were not
deterred by the sacred religious status
of churches and mosques and in 2002 used
the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem
as refuge resulting in a lengthy siege
until most were forced into exile after
handing over their weapons to the Israelis.

Until recently the Israelis avoided hitting
mosques or churches even when their
religious status was abused by the
Palestinians. This is no longer the case.
In the latest Gaza conflict, the Israelis
did hit some mosques, but only those used
by Hamas to fire from, launch rockets and
mortars from or used to store arms
ammunition and explosives.

How many churches or synagogues are there
in Saudi Arabia?

How many Hindu Temples are there in Saudi
Arabia?

Except for the Kaaba which was
originally a Hindu Temple until
plundered by Mohamed there are none.

“The reality is that Hamas won only about 45% of the total vote.”

But Gavin – that’s more than Labour managed when “winning” the last general election with 37% of the vote, or the one before that with 41%, or even Tony Blair’s great “landslide” of 1997, achieved with “only” 43% of the vote.

So, why promote a falsehood, Andy?

Plus, the P.A. system also ran a separate voting system for Executive control. There is no such equivalent with the British parliamentary system.

It looks more like incompetence than “falsehood” to me, in confusing the percentage of the vote and the percentage of seats.

At least it’s not as deliberately false as those who attempt to ignore Hamas’s democratic mandate.

“Criticism of terror attacks of the west– stretching back to Dawson’s Field in 1970 – are “defamation””

As a little side note. One of the Aircraft that was blown up at Dawson’s Field a millions of pounds of gold ingots in the cargo hold. The PLO could have run their operation for decades on the loot, but they didn’t look.

“At least it’s not as deliberately false as those who attempt to ignore Hamas’s democratic mandate”

Been said before, but I’ll say it again for the benefit of someone who evidently doesn’t understand that democracy consists of more than just the number of votes cast:
Hitler was elected democratically. It’s what happened afterwards that is significant.

At least it’s not as deliberately false as those who attempt to ignore Hamas’s democratic mandate.

Such as Hamas themselves when they ignored their lack of a mandate for executive control, and that mandate that Fat’h held?

What’s also deliberately false, Andy, is your suggesting that anyone is ignoring what mandate Hamas has. International and foreign agencies are just declining to fund it. Why should Hamas have a right to receive foreign tax money?

Either that or you’re being incompetent.

“The reality is that Hamas won only about 45% of the total vote.”
“But Gavin – that’s more than Labour managed when “winning” the last general election with 37% of the vote, or the one before that with 41%, or even Tony Blair’s great “landslide” of 1997, achieved with “only” 43% of the vote”.

True. But I don’t know any New Labourite who goes round claiming that because they won 65% of the parliamentary seats that must mean they won 65% of the popular vote. But that’s what John, Lord Allerdice claims for Hamas.

Maybe he is simply an innumerate jerk, like Andy?

Just received this from Short’s office in response to my request to attend tonight:

“The event tonight is strictly for parliamentarians and lobby journalists.”

Not for plebs and yokels, then – let them know their place!

As another Gavin has turned up (inevitably enough) I will now change my online name to something slightly more practical.

Pity -I was a) very much looking forward to reading a post by Amie on this event and b) confident that she would know exactly which questions to ask.
Now I suppose we’ll just have to make do with the ‘official’ version of what went on.

Wondering whether the video link might enable some clever techie to trace where Meshaal is?