Harry's Place

In other words, what you’re seeing here are significant regional variations in attitudes.

They’re all pretty anti-Semitic, though.

I like Greg more with every day that passeth.

what’s the point of this survey?

Did the ask any questions about attitudes towards Jews?

No, there are some odd omissions from the survey, and this is one. Odd, because this group is essentially a ‘Three Abrahamic Faiths” forum. It looks as if the ‘homosexuality” and other ‘moral” questions are the controversial ones. There are some soft and generalised questions about attitudes to other faiths, generically.

Thank you, very interesting.

Maybe we should promote immigration to and multiculturalism in Muslim majority countries.

and lowest among British Muslims (0%).

Which means there are some self hating or suppressed Muslims in Blighty!

The figures suggest perhaps more French Muslims have assimilated, or are pretty lapsed in their adherence to Islam. There could be all sorts of reasons for this.

Indeed, it is interesting that few – not even the BNP – would suggest that our values are under attack by the presence in our societies of British Christians of African Descent

Well ignoring the uncomfortable politically incorrect cold, hard truth of the drugs, gun crime and social dysfunction endemic in men of African descent.

It’s difficult to find stats for the UK, but all the indications are that the UK has similar problems as in the US with very high crime levels amongst black men…

African American men are incarcerated at seven times the rate of whites.

More 10% of African American men in their 20s are in jail, more than have degrees or are serving in the military.

And of course anyone that knows jack knows that Atheists are drastically under represented in the Penal system.

Now is the system simply systemically racist or is there a very non PC problem out there getting the David T treatment?

now with fixed blockquotes!….

and lowest among British Muslims (0%).

Which means there are some self hating or suppressed Muslims in Blighty!

The figures suggest perhaps more French Muslims have assimilated, or are pretty lapsed in their adherence to Islam. There could be all sorts of reasons for this.

David T:

Indeed, it is interesting that few – not even the BNP – would suggest that our values are under attack by the presence in our societies of British Christians of African Descent

Well perhaps by ignoring the uncomfortable politically incorrect cold, hard truth of the drugs, gun crime and social dysfunction endemic in men of African descent.

It’s difficult to find stats for the UK, but all the indications are that the UK has similar problems as in the US with very high crime levels amongst black men…

African American men are incarcerated at seven times the rate of whites.

More 10% of African American men in their 20s are in jail, more than have degrees or are serving in the military.

And of course anyone that knows jack knows that Atheists are drastically under represented in the Penal system.

Now is the system simply systemically racist or is there a very non PC problem out there getting the David T treatment?

Indeed, it is interesting that few – not even the BNP – would suggest that our values are under attack by the presence in our societies of British Christians of African Descent, who generally also regard homosexuals with moral disdain.

Apart from Simon Darby, who believes the sky-diving arch-bish is “an ambitious African“, that is.

You are right, we need to increase the level of Atheist incarceration, obviously, to bring it into line with norms.

Nick how do you do blockquotes here? Ive tried, but nothing has panned out yet.

Actually atheism of itself is not any kind of sign of virtue. It happens to be correlated with intelligence and criminality inversely correlate with intelligence, or rather convicted criminals correlate inversely with intelligence wise. Perhaps atheist criminals just don’t get caught!

You know, sort of like the cunning Zionists get away with controlling our economy, foreign policy and media….

Escape, type

{blockquote}yaddayaddayadda{/blockquote}

Except the greater/less than signs for {}

[blockquote]

text to blockquote

[/blockquote]

Just replace the square brackets with the corresponding less than

you can do the same thing using [i]Indent[/i] and [b]bold[/b]

….corresponding pointy brackets – the less than and greater than signs

Thanks, I was using quote not blockquote.

Actually atheism of itself is not any kind of sign of virtue. It happens to be correlated with intelligence and criminality inversely correlate with intelligence, or rather convicted criminals correlate inversely with intelligence wise. Perhaps atheist criminals just don’t get caught!,blockquote>

That is hogwash, its a sign of some nefarious hidden bigotry or racism within the society, deeply seeded within the souls of Westerners. (sarcasm)

LOL!

Oops….I got the blockquotes in the wrong spots.

“Oh, and 2% of British Muslims find honour killing acceptable. While 3% of the general public find “crimes of passion” morally acceptable, no British Muslims expressed that view.”

A good overall post, but I don’t know know what point you’re trying to make here. Although both crimes are equally morally unacceptable, they cannot be conflated. Crimes of passion occur in the heat of the moment when the murderer is overcome by their emotions, such as jealous rage. Many killers later go on to express remorse after the fact, or to at least question the rightness of their actions.

Conversely, honour killings target a defined social group (women and sometimes gay men) and as such could be defined as a hate crime. They are often pre-meditated and committed in cold blood, aided and abetted by the extended (male) family of the victim. It is highly uncommon for those found guilty to show remorse (in public at least), or to admit anything other than to have acted in the utmost righteousness.

I think you sholdnt beliv in surveys to muche. You can put almost anythin you like in suche surveys. I am sure that you coulde even if you wanted to even proove that most cristians doesnt belive in crist if you wanted to

“It would also be interesting to see what the results would be if we sliced the cake in a slightly different way: by looking at the attitudes of “People Who Attend A Religious Ceremony At Least Once At Least Once A Month”

You can do that with the “World Values Survey“. I’ll restrict the sample to the UK (although I could include other countries and break it down by religion), the survey asks people to judge how justifiable homosexulaity is on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being never justifiable and 10 being always justifiable. If you compare it to how often they attend religious ceremonies there is a strong correlation. Doing tables in blog comment boxes are difficult but I’ll give it a go.

Religious Attendence, Homosexuality Never Justifiable, Always Justifiable:

More than weekly- 49.4%, 6.4%
Once a week- 32.1%, 7.3%
Once a month- 23%, 17.3%
Only On Holy Days- 11.2 %, 27.4 %
Once a year: 13.1%, 27.2%
Less Often: 21.8%, 15.4%
Never or almost never: 16.3%, 26.9 %

That’s strange. I looked the list of Trustees of the Coexist Foundation and found, as I expected, a list of well-meaning liberal worthies, churchmen, academics etc. And, oddly, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, Grand Mufti of Egypt.

This, surely, cannot be the same Sheikh Ali Gomaa who, at the time of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, declared Hezbollah‘s attacks on Israel as “defense
of its country and not terrorism.” (conveniently ignoring the fact that it was a deliberate attack on a Israeli patrol on Israeli territory by Hezbollah “defenders of Lebanon” that started the conflict.)

Not the same Ali Gomaa who, during the same conflict, wrote in the Egyptian state newspaper Al-Ahram:

“These lies have exposed the true and hideous face of the blood-suckers who were described by Filmange in his book The Treasure Hidden in the Talmudic Laws [sic], which tells how [the Jews] planned [to prepare] a matzo [unleavened Passover bread] using human blood”.

And definitely not the same Ali Gomaa who, having told the Washington Post’s On Faith forum that Muslims are free to leave the faith, then backtracked on his statement, declaring that Islam prohibits Muslims from changing their faith and that apostasy was a a crime “which must be punished.”

Not, it can’t be the same guy. I mean, why would an organisation promoting inter-faith understanding have anything to do with someone holding such views?

Can we try to have the term ‘honour killing’ replaced by ‘misogynistic murder’.
Killing a defenseless women is neither honourable no a ‘killing’.

It was refreshing to see the positive attitude to employment shown in the survey by British Muslims. Asked whether finding a job was necessary for integration, 70% of British Muslims surveyed thought that it was, as opposed to 84% of French and 97% of German Muslims respectively. I wonder what that says about our society and the generosity of the welfare we offer to immigrants?

Yet when asked whether they had a job, paid or unpaid, only 38% of the British Muslims surveyed replied YES, as opposed to 62% of the general public.

It might not seem it, but this is real progress. When the ONS produced employment statistics by religion back in 2004, only a paltry 35% of UK Muslims of working age were in work. That suggests a massive 3% jump in just five years!

Green shoots indeed.

/sarcasm off.

Oh, and 2% of British Muslims find honour killing acceptable. While 3% of the general public find “crimes of passion” morally acceptable, no British Muslims expressed that view.”

And this is a good thing? This proves, as David T is trying so desperately to prove, that Islam isn’t different?

On the contrary. “Crime of passion” is not even a Muslim concept, anymore than “passion” is. There is zina, which means illicit sex; this includes consensual relationships outside marriage (in the Western sense of one man one woman). Polygamy, that is male promiscuity with legal sanction, is allowed. Temporary marriage (muta), that is prostitution, is allowed on strictly male terms. Rape of women and girls inside marriage is allowed. Rape of an unmarried girl means that she will be punished – her consent doesn’t isn’t an issue. Rape of young boys is commonplace, and accepted, while consensual gay sex is punishable by death.

Passion? Don’t make me laugh.

Carry on trying, though. Islam is no different, and no threat to the West at all. Really.

There was something on the internet once about Muslims converting to the Catholic Church in France. France doesn’t keep statistics of conversions as such, but the Church keeps records of adult baptisms and researchers went through them picking out Arab-looking names. I don’t remember now what the numbers were – this was several years ago – but I remember finding it surprisingly large, in the thousands per year, as I recall. The reason for the conversion was usually that the man was going to marry a French Catholic woman; most people wouldn’t bother to get baptised just for the sake of it. But there was a suggestion that some of them, at least, were seeking to break away from Muslim culture and assimilate into the broader French culture.

There was something on a Catholic internet site once about Muslims converting to the Catholic Church in France. They don’t compile statistics of conversions as such, but the Church keeps records of adult baptisms and researchers went through them picking out Arab-looking names. I don’t remember now what the numbers were – this was several years ago – but I remember finding it surprisingly large, in the thousands per year, as I recall. The reason for the conversion was usually that the man was going to marry a French Catholic woman; most people wouldn’t bother to get baptised just for the sake of it. But there was a suggestion that some of them, at least, were seeking to break away from Muslim culture and assimilate into the broader French culture.

“The reason for the disparity between the views of British, French, and German Muslims is this. British Muslims are largely South Asian in descent. German Muslims are significantly of Turkish and Kurdish heritage. French Muslims are overwhelmingly North African in origin. In other words, what you’re seeing here are significant regional variations in attitudes.”

Hmmm. I haven’t seen the details of the survey, but there’s a potential post hoc error lurking in there. You kind of take it back right at the end of your post, but you don’t get your conclusion there from your premises. It’s equally possible that the reason for the disparity has very little to do with origins, and a lot to do with British, French and German society. After all, not all British Muslims are of South Asian origin, and yet none of those surveyed think homosexuality is morally acceptable.

(Though, of course, it’s possible that the detail of the survey supports the point you’re making.)

Goodish news indeed.

Just a few points: there are now a significant number of Turks, Kurds (mainly Iraqi), and North Africans in the UK than pre-2000. Turks are the longest established of these 3 broad groupings but they form a significant minority in parts of N/NE London (up your way David T). Of these groups, the Turks are the best ‘integrated’ and are the most likely to join you in the local for a pint or two; indeed, there are more than a few Turkish landlords! I’ve never surveyed anyone on their views as regards homosexuality so I couldn’t really say, but would’ve thought it was broadly comparable with those of SE Asian extraction.

would suggest that our values are under attack by the presence in our societies of British Christians of African Descent, who generally also regard homosexuals with moral disdain.

I think that’s a little unfair (perhaps disdain is too critical – semantics?). I work with lots of East and West African Christian clerics, and have participated in dialogue with some African Muslim clerics, and I have found their views to be broadly similar: they disapprove of such a thing as a ‘homosexual lifestyle’ as evidenced by the diversity of Europe’s gay community, in general, but recognise these hmosexuals as human beings NOT as some diabolical sub-human category. The Christian clerics, in particular, view homosexual sex in the same way that they view heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

I do not believe that a secular human rights agenda should be ‘imposed’ from above on African countries, but I do support educational initiatives and dialogue to foster a spirit of tolerance and a reconsideration of scripture in light of 21st century values.

Thanks to whoever brought this to our attention in the comments (Short Order Cook?) and to David T for analysing it.

Jeremy

Yes, you’re right. I’ll rewrite that paragraph.

Joseph K

I’ll add that to the post.

There is a significant new book out by Christopher Caldwell who writes in the Financial Times, amongst other places. He was on Night Waves last night, and was allowed here and there to get a word in:

“Is Muslim immigration supplanting or enhancing European culture? Christopher Caldwell, author of a new book Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, explains his idea that immigration was just a short-term solution to the post World War 2 economic problems, but that it has had long-term consequences which now need to be re-evaluated!.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00k4lxv

Incidentally it was mentioned above that there is a large population of Turks in London. Can anyone explain how? Turkey is a member of NATO and a more-or-less democratic country from which no-one should need to seek asylum. It is not in the EU. So how did all these Turks get here? Are they Turkish cypriots?

>>> For example, the least tolerant (or as I would put it the most bigoted) people in the whole world are Israelis. On page 14 of the report:”

“Israelis are the least likely of the populations surveyed in the region to report they always treat members of other faiths with respect”

Sssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Given the sexual realities of sexually-repressed Pakistan, it is hard – no, it is totally impossible – to believe that people of Pakistani descent in Britain aren’t doing what at least one young fellow was portrayed as doing in the film ‘My Beutiful Launderette.’

In the Middle East, as all are aware from childhood, there is unendurable shame in being a ‘bender’ but none at all, or hardly any, in being the ‘pusher.’

Question missed from the survey:-

“Should a Muslim dentist refuse treatment unless you wear Islamic dress or if you wear jewellery – even if you are in severe pain”

I’m sure 99.99% of those asked would say No, its not acceptable. Except for this dentist http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1178411/Muslim-dentist-refused-treat-female-patients-unless-wore-Islamic-dress.html

I use this to illustrate how the actions of Muslims that run counter intuitive to a “normal” behaviour ends up as a Daily Mail story and then somehow propogates into “It’s Islamaphobia” or “Why can’t they play by our rules?”.

Is it Daily Mail deliberately seeking out stories or is it a few idiots self-selecting themselves as radicals to stuff it to us? They say he’s related to someone at Al Muhajiroun. Not Andy’s brother by any chance?

>>> Is it Daily Mail deliberately seeking out stories

Yes. Then the bigots take their cue and spew their islamophobic filth in the comments.

Just like the Brown Saucers.

Lets’s dispel this comment about Israelis being least tolerant.

The ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which divides Jewish Israelis and Muslim and Christian Palestinians, is often
framed in deep religious undertones. Within Israel, relations between the Jewish majority and the Arab Muslim and
Christian Israeli minority have been tense. Relations have worsened in recent months because of Israel’s war on Gaza and
a parliamentary election favoring anti-Arab right-wing parties, including Yisrael Beiteinu, which has called for revoking
the citizenship of Arabs deemed disloyal to Israel.3 The popularity of these parties suggests a growing distrust of Arab
Israelis by many of their Jewish counterparts. Israelis are the least likely of the populations surveyed in the region to
report they always treat members of other faiths with respect and are among the least likely to feel they are respected by
others. They are also the least likely to agree that most religious faiths make a positive contribution to society. With the
exception of Arabs in Israel, the timing of the fieldwork did not make possible the polling of other Arab respondents.
They will be polled during the next wave and the findings will be published in next year’s report.

The popularity of these parties suggests a growing distrust of Arab Israelis by many of their Jewish counterparts. Israelis are the least likely of the populations surveyed in the region to
report they always treat members of other faiths with respect and are among the least likely to feel they are respected by
others

Notice how the quote switches between Israelis and Jews. If you are stating that “Israelis are least tolerant” then a true statement is “Arab Israelis are the least tolerant and have the lowest respect of other faiths”

If you remove Israeli Arabs from the set “Israelis” then you are selectively racist. The poll did not distinguish between Israeli Jews and Israeli Muslims (Arabs).

The comment already points to “mistrust” between the communities. Hence, the poll result related to Israel does not translate to a general attitude amongst Israelis (Arab and Jew) to the outside World but a specific boundary within Israel due to the conflict.

Of course there is a great deal of mistrust between Muslims and Jews in Israel when its is predominantly Muslims who attack and kill Jews (ie Palestinian/Lebanese terrorism. – There have been a few Palestinian/Lebanese Christians who did acts of terrorism).

Equally, there is a historical religious Jew hatred from Muslims as well as Jewish retaliations and activities in house demolitions and settler activity.

To project the cross emnity within Israel and I/P conflict as if its the same type of survey comparing French to Germans and Brits is crass.

The elephant in the room is class of course. Class, occupation and educational level. Were these considered in the survey? Also, I’ve heard that Arab/Middle Eastern society has no objections to homosexual practices, providing the man also gets it on with women. It’s exclusivie homosexual practice they object to. Does anyone know if this is true?

Yes. Then the bigots take their cue and spew their islamophobic filth in the comments.

Oh well, free speech is a bummer!

I don’t think you should be allowed to post here unless you are Jewish and wear a yamulka. In fact NO non-Jew should be allowed to post here!

If you now comment negatively on my belief then you are just being antisemitic!

(of course, I don’t mean any of that. I am just equivalencing the idea that a dentist can insist you must dress in a certain way and that people commenting MUST be Islamaphobes!))

It shows, clearly, that a monolithic attitude towards Muslims, as a bloc, is mistaken.

Really? Whodathunkit?

So we lose the lottery and get the shitty homophobes, right? Great, makes me feel so very very safe.

Oh and some of us find those floor-polishing African evangelicals just as threatening.

“And this is a good thing? This proves, as David T is trying so desperately to prove, that Islam isn’t different?”

Indeed. Notice that 0% of British Muslims find homosexuality “acceptable”. This is not 0% of Islamists. It’s not a small “minority” of extremists. The community as a whole can legitimately be talked of in generalising terms.

“Christians of African Descent, who generally also regard homosexuals with moral disdain. Yet that is a charge easily levied at “British Muslims”.”

Personally I am contemptuous towards Black or other Christians who have repressive views about gay people. However I have yet to hear Black/African or other Christian leaders call for gay people to be killed by stoning, wall toppling, hanging from a crane or whatever. Whereas I have often heard (what may of course be loud-mouthed self-appointed) Muslim leaders call for gay people to be killed or if they are moderate just to have our lives restricted in some way that suits their religious fantasies and delusions .

“I would, however, be interested to hear how what percentage would find it acceptable that a person be attacked in the street because of their sexuality.”

I wonder how many could care less, even if they are not actually out there attacking gay people themselves. “Traditional Muslim defends gay rights” is not a headline I ever expect to see. Islam is literally interpreted by virtually every stream and is sadly, probably unreformable. If it needs repeating, by no means every Muslim is a terrorist or a bigot but Islam is IMO a nasty, totalitarian ideology and Arabic supremacy theory wrapped up in metaphysical bollocks.

Just for comparison, I was in the Masorti synagogue in North London last week (not a place I find myself very often) and just my luck that the Torah reading was from Leviticus, concerning sexual crimes including homosexuality. I was therefore gratified that Rabbi Wittenberg, who I have never previously heard of, prefaced the reading by saying (I paraphrase) that the literal view on gay people as an abomination was the outdated position of people, the human writers if the Torah in the Masorti view, who did not understand sexuality and that gay people, even as couples I think he said, had as much right to dignity as any other people. When there is an imam prepared to say something similar, then I may change my view of Islam.

“Gomaa should clearly resign from the Coexist Foundation.” Why? No doubt he believes in coexistence in the same spirit as the tiger who took the young lady of Riga for a ride.

I wonder how much of this cultural difference in attitude within the Muslim community, as suggested by David T, is a legacy of colonialism.

Anti-homosexual legislation was enforced in South Asia and Bahrain, Burma, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei by the British, under the Indian Penal Code. And these laws, along with some pretty arcane property laws, have either not been repealed (as in the case of India) or have been co-opted and strengthened.

I don’t know how homosexuality was dealt with by the French Empire, but it does seem that the penalties for homosexual are not as severe in North Africa as they are in South Asia. Mostly, it seems there is a fine and at worst a relatively short prison sentence, whereas in South Asia sentences range from 10 years to execution.

In Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim nation, homosexuality is legal – perhaps the influence of the liberal-minded Dutch?!

Gosh, Dan, you mean the nasty British forced the libertarian and sexually and socially progressive South Asians to become homo-hunting murderous thugs? Blimey!!! Did they also force the women to lock themselves up in houses (purdah) or throw themselves onto funeral pyres(suttee)?

Right -Israelis are so intolerant and bigoted that at the moment Israel’s national airline El Al is organising special low priced trips for gay people to Israel’s Gay Pride week to be held in June in Tel Aviv. Apparantly the uptake has been very encouraging (it seems that research shows that gay people take more holidays than other groups) and local businesses are absolutely thrilled that Europe’s gay community are coming to visit.

Incidentally it was mentioned above that there is a large population of Turks in London. Can anyone explain how? Turkey is a member of NATO and a more-or-less democratic country from which no-one should need to seek asylum. It is not in the EU. So how did all these Turks get here? Are they Turkish cypriots?

Maybe they once voted for Jeremy Corbyn.

I know the uncle of the first Turkish C.I.D. officer in Scotland. He’s great.

Thanks for your comment! It has been placed in the moderation queue, and if it toes the pro-Israel party line we might consider publishing it.

ah Dan, I just knew i had to be the West’s fault somehow! Phew, thanks for clearing it up.

Ah Dan, of course. I just knew i had to be the West’s fault somehow! Phew, thanks for clearing it up. So without colonialism, these homophobic arseholes would be beacons of liberal thought, right?

woah double comment disaster – plz delete one.

Linda, how about a rendition from your album Cry Like A Rainstorm, Howl Like The Wind. Seems appropriate somehow.

My personal favourite “You’re No Good” is even better.

This survey is apples with oranges, and has sod all to do with 21st, or even 20thc Government policy. France effectively decriminalised homosexuality (sodomy) in 1791, though before anyone goes ‘hurrah to the French’, don’t forget it is STILL a deeply misogynist country where a defence of ‘crime passionnel’ meant you could get a 2 year sentence for killing a woman till the 1970’s (just like Pakistan today!), and even now is still used by defence lawyers to pull the heartstrings of French juries. North Africa was used as a sex-tourist destination for decades (check out Joe Orton’s diaries) : I don’t know whether the sex-tourism followed historically relaxed attitudes, or whether those attitudes were imposed by French colonialism, but either way, you’d expect immigrants or the descendants of immigrants from these countries to have a very different take on sexuality than Muslims from Pakistan or Bangladesh.
Btw, where the hell did the Guardian get its headscarf statistics? In their own office? I’ve never met anyone who sees the things – the equivalent of wearing a t-shirt saying, hey, i’m second class! – and feels joy.

The BBC because they are so wise and know best in their truth distortion do noy say that muslims are born losers and even where they have everything going for them, even with positive discriminantion, Brunei, Malaysia et.al. they are still losers in competition with the Chinese et.al.

Linda,

If you are doing requests, could I have “Don’t talk”, “Don’t Know Much” or “Telling Me Lies”.

Hugs,

Barad

Of course there is a colonial legacy. To ignore this just because of your defensiveness about imperialism is to ignore these countries’ historical contexts and the impact this has on attitudes towards homosexuality.

I’ve had to deal with the arcane and archaic property laws in Kolkata which, despite 30 plus years of communist rule in the state, have been unchanged for over 100 years. Yes, the Indian Penal Code did abolish sutee, but it also legislated against homosexuality. I’m not sure what the situation was with regards to the French colonies, but I would not be surprised if the French had a complete disinterest in controlling the moral behaviour of their subjects.

Let’s take another example – Malaysia’s laws against homosexuality are violent (as Anwar Ibrahim can testify, having been prosecuted on trumped-up charges of sodomy) whereas neighbouring Indonesia has no anti-gay laws. Who ruled Malaya? Who ruled the Dutch East Indies?

Yes Dan of course Dan, it is all my fault that these Muslims hate me.

Don’t rise to Dan Sue R. Clearly he a parody.

Israelinurse I know exactly why Israel is using a cynical PR campaign to recruit gays to Zionism. I read about it in Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079589.html

It is also a counter-offensive against gays who oppose Israeli terrorism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queers_Undermining_Israeli_Terrorism

Of course, what Israel’s ruling class really thinks about gays is well known:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/77445/israeli_lawmaker_claims_homosexuality_causes_earthquakes/

http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/globalactionalerts/84.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/872873.html

Thanks for your comment! It has been placed in the moderation queue, and if it is approved it will be published here soon!

No he’s not. He’s correct.

Incidentally it was mentioned above that there is a large population of Turks in London. Can anyone explain how? Turkey is a member of NATO and a more-or-less democratic country from which no-one should need to seek asylum. It is not in the EU. So how did all these Turks get here? Are they Turkish cypriots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Turks

I went to kindergarten with a British Turk, but I didn’t realise he had Turkish roots until I met him again a few years back. He was known as Owen or Oz, but his mum made him change it from Osman to protect ‘delicate’ Romfordian sensibilities.

Also, I’ve heard that Arab/Middle Eastern society has no objections to homosexual practices, providing the man also gets it on with women. It’s exclusivie homosexual practice they object to. Does anyone know if this is true?

To the best of my knowledge, I’d say it’s false – an urban legend. Having spent a considerbale amount of time in the ME, I’ve heard various anecdotes and personally know several gay MEsterners but I’ve never broached this particular subject…

In what way is he correct? Once these ex-colonies got their independence, they had every opportunity to overturn the anti-homosexual legislation. They didn’t. Now why is that? No wait, don’t tell me – yea verily, the legacy of colonialism shall be visited upon the son and the son’s sons and so until eternity, forever providing a ready excuse for thickwitted homophobia.

Thanks for your comment! It has been placed in the moderation queue, and if it toes the pro-Israel party line we might consider publishing it.

Clearly that wasn’t directed at you personally, because no-one would ever say “Thanks” in response to one of your comments. But just to be 100% clear, there’s no party line, and it’s not your views that are objectionable; it’s your character. It’s you. If you were pro-Israel you’d be just as much of a tosser.

Flaming Fairy is right, it is a point that has often occurred to me. Decolonisation took place about 50 years ago (in the majority of places) and look at the mess most of these countries are in now!! I don’t support imperialism, I agree with Lenin (the real one not the tosspot who is lying in his tomb) that ‘Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism’ and I, as a socialist, do not want people to be exploited, but it must be said that Imperialism did build roads, organise production, institute secular education, erect a state structure for many of these countries. All they had to do, was get on with it. I’ve lost patience with all the claims that its whitey’s fault. Yes, I know, the wicked British/Yanks/French/(fill in your particular bugbear drew up the borders so that the locals would suffer, yes, I knowd they tried to create countries out of tribal societies which were not politically co-terminous…yes, yes, yes… but isn’t it time these people stopped blaming us for everything? If we believe that all men (and women) are equal, then they must be capable of organising their affairs in a rational way, assuming as Aristotle said, ‘Man is a rational animal’. I don’t say that our morality or social system in the West is totally wonderful, there are many things wrong with it, but we do manage to feed ourselves, to cure the sick, to teach people to read and write, to reason and to enjoy themselves without torturing animals. (Apart from Spain where they go in for bull-fighting). Neither in this country, until very recently, did anyone give a stuff about religion, apart from a few weirdos. Incidentally, is Dan the same Dan who said a few months back that his grandfather was the Chairman of Chingford Conservatives when Winston Churchill was the MP?

Saying that these laws have their origins in colonial periods – any may have been pushed by the British but not, say, the French – is not ‘blame whitey’.

It is just a background fact.

Thanks for your comment! It has been placed in the moderation queue, and if it toes the pro-Israel party line we might consider publishing it.

In the meantime, please enjoy some gratuitous personal insults from the ever-charming wardytron.

Would you allow your daughter to marry away from her religion?

Hm… Seems like they chose not to ask that question.

I’m sorry, Mr T, but it is. These different countries have had fifty years (or nigh on) to repeal, amend or overturn these laws. They haven’t done so. I don’t know the composition of Malaysian society and how it differs to Indonesia, except Indonesia has a large Bhuddist population, Malaysia doesn’t. First rule of science, look at the facts. Start from the facts, analyze them. There is not such thing as ‘just a background fact’. The background got there somehow, unless of course you think it was divinely ordained, a belief that more and more people are coming to sadly.

KRondstadt, what have you got against wardytron? He seems an amiable cove to me. Why this obssession about insulting him, when there are other far more worthy objects of your ire?

Yeah, but it may be a relevant background fact, mightn’t it. That’s not the same thing as saying “and so it is ok” or “and so no criticism can be made of those who have perpetuated discrimination”.

>>> KRondstadt, what have you got against wardytron? He seems an amiable cove to me. Why this obssession about insulting him, when there are other far more worthy objects of your ire?

Hilarious!

I have nothing against him, and if you check, I think you’ll find that he insulted me, not vice versa.

While I have your attention, could you perhaps back up your comment, “isn’t it time these people stopped blaming us for everything?”

Don’t you think that’s a rather sweeping statement? Which people are blaming us for “everything”?

It is true that the anti-gay laws as currently written in some countries originate in many cases from colonial periods. I wonder how many of these countries had any written, codified laws beforehand or indeed if some of them existed as sovereign entities prior to colonization. Many of the Muslim areas if run on Sharia lines will have had similar restrictions on gay relations beforehand.

However I have to agree with Sue-if it is bad or oppressive law, then change it, as we do in the UK from time to time, anti-gay laws being a case in point. Blasphemy ought to be next. Some formerly colonized countries have done away with anti-gay laws; South Africa in particular has been astonishingly progressive on this in comparison to (virtually?) anywhere else in Africa. If SA can do it, why not supposedly progressive Malaysia or India or Singapore?

As for why Indonesia does not persecute gay people, the Dutch explanation is intriguing. I have been there many times for business and as a tourist. Overall the Indonesian brand of Islam often seemed more moderate and blended with older local, animist religions, Hinduism and Christianity. Sadly in the last decade, Saudi-financed mosques and preachers have dented the tolerance of the Indonesians. I wonder and doubt if an Indonesian government would have support to repeal anti-gay laws if they were on the books now.

Overall I have to say that trying to consider unemotionally laws enacted in various countries to control natural, innate human urges including mine is quite difficult. My emotional reaction is to tell these people to fuck off out of my life and those of people like me and talk to their own personal Sky God themselves without trying to involve anyone else or impose their supernatural rubbish on others.

By the way, isn’t it time we had another Brown Sauce article saying what a thoroughly marvellous person Hazel Blears is.

Maybe an article praising her taste in high quality furnishings?

Funny how advocates of so called ‘multiculturalism’ don’t get that the different populations of different Muslims come from different cultures.

I mean after all when comparing attitudes of, say, Russians, Americans and Argentinians we would expect a strong homogeneity of views, owing to them all being Christians, wouldn’t we?

Roll on sharia in the UK, eh Linda? If it wasn’t for that pesky, meddling Hazel Blears, they might just have gotten away with it…

Can I assume that you are in fact a white, heterosexual, suburban male and not as I sometimes prefer to imagine you, a dowdy but unconvincing she-male?

How many people were servayd? What percentage of the servayed were Muslim/Jewish/Budahist/Christian etc? What percentage do these religions make in the society? same with ethinc groups. The most important question: What is the margine of error?

“Funny how advocates of so called ‘multiculturalism’ don’t get that the different populations of different Muslims come from different cultures.

I mean after all when comparing attitudes of, say, Russians, Americans and Argentinians we would expect a strong homogeneity of views, owing to them all being Christians, wouldn’t we?”

Presumably most Russians, Americans et al are Russian or American first, religion (and probably quite different versions of religion) second. Many Muslims, on the surveys I have seen, rate their religious commonality far higher than their nationality, perhaps because of the caliphate aspiration.

Hence the odd spectacle of British born Muslims of Pakistani origin obsessing about Jews in Israel and rating solidarity with their Palestinian brothas ‘n’ sistas (sorry but I have heard this expression too often to ignore) as massively outweighting any common interest with non-Muslim British subjects.

Right as usual, mettaculture. Nor can we possibly take into account that anyone has less than a thorough understanding of and complete agreement with everything the Islamists appointed for talks tell them, that much of ordinary people’s religion consists of folk elements which directly contradict Islam, or that there could ever be such a thing as syncretism. Just as there’s no difference between a Zen temple in Milton Keynes and the Sri Lankan army, all members of the ‘Buddhist community.’

I don’t know the composition of Malaysian society and how it differs to Indonesia, except Indonesia has a large Bhuddist population, Malaysia doesn’t.

Actually, Malaysia has more Buddhists than Indonesia. In absolute terms, roughly 5 million to 4 million as of the 2000 census; in relative terms, 19.2% to 1.8%. In both countries, Buddhists are overwhelmingly ethnic Chinese. Buddhists of austronesian ethnicity are a minuscule remnant in Inodenesia; In Malaysia, ethnic Malays are Muslim by definition, i.e. by constitutional law. (cf. the Lina Joy case)

Would you allow your daughter to marry away from her religion?

Yes, this should be put to all prospective parliamentary candidates, local councillors and civil servants. For me, if you answer ‘no’ to this question, you’re no better than a racist…indeed, as I like to point out so often, your position is most likely a de facto racist one hiding behind religion.

Funny how advocates of so called ‘multiculturalism’ don’t get that the different populations of different Muslims come from different cultures.

I mean after all when comparing attitudes of, say, Russians, Americans and Argentinians we would expect a strong homogeneity of views, owing to them all being Christians, wouldn’t we?

Excellent point Metta.

>>> Roll on sharia [law] in the UK

100+ years after Beth Din law courts were introduced in the UK.

“>>> Roll on sharia [law] in the UK

100+ years after Beth Din law courts were introduced in the UK.”

Linda,

100 years in, as you say, and unlike Sharia I have yet to hear any rabbi long for the day when a Jewish flag flies over No10 and Jewish law is the law of the land applied to Jew and gentile alike, usurping democracy. What a poor analogy you chose!

B.

When I come back to the UK in the summer, my wife and I discussed launching a campaign in the same vein as the fellow who used to send out CVs with different names but with broadly the same qualifications. We thought that we’d target MPs and other public figures connected with the equality industry to see just how ‘diverse’ and egalitarian their own attitudes are. I’d also like to corner a few MPs and quiz them about their attitudes towards interfaith marriage, starting with that female wolf in sheep’s clothing, Sayeeda Warsi MP.

Ah Dan, of course. I just knew i had to be the West’s fault somehow! Phew, thanks for clearing it up. So without colonialism, these homophobic arseholes would be beacons of liberal thought, right?

Yes, the poor dears are automatons condemned to do whatever their masters command of them. If there,s anything bad going on in Malaysia, anything bad at all, it’s all the because of Lord Raffles.

Poor, poor dears.

There was something on the internet once about Muslims converting to the Catholic Church in France. France doesn’t keep statistics of conversions as such, but the Church keeps records of adult baptisms and researchers went through them picking out Arab-looking names. I don’t remember now what the numbers were – this was several years ago – but I remember finding it surprisingly large, in the thousands per year, as I recall

I can vouch for that report because I remember reading it as well. Over a 1000 muslims a year convert to Catholicism in France, whereas others convert to various Protestant faiths.

Strangest thing is, The Catholic Church in France doesn’t even have an official outreach progtramme aimed at the country’s Muslim community.

Here is some info straight from Qaradawi’s ‘Islamonline’. Of course, and much like Dan, Islamonline blames conversion to Christianity on “bigotry” and “islamophobia”.

Something along the lines of “islamophobia-drives-muslims-to- insanity-whereupon-they-convert-to-Christianity”.

(That rhymes!)

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-12/31/article04.shtml

Sayeeda Warsi MP

Erratum: Baroness Warsi

Chronicstate: Have you actually got anything to say or just snarking?

Linda, d’you think Beth Din courts are a good thing or a bad thing?

>>> What a poor analogy you chose!

It’s an entirely appropriate analogy.

100 years the jewish population of the East End was about 100,000. Bigots viewed them with suspicion and spread wild rumors about Jews wanting to take over the country.

Since then the Jews have moved out of proletarian districts such as Whitechapel and the latest wave of poor immigrants – who happen to be largely muslims – have moved in.

So guess who are now the focus of bigots such as the corrupt and reactionary Hazel Blears MP?

Loose Britannia?

They’re ruining this country
Dismantling it brick by brick
These petty politicians
Are using every trick
To sell from underneath us
This land we hold so dear
This land our forbears died for
She wept those bitter tears
-
Shame on you and your masters
that value vanity and fame
Where are your honest principles
We’re tired of your games
In the mother of all parliaments
Is where you cast your dice
Then scurry to your sycophants
Who wait like frightened mice
-
You speak only for the party line
When your actions to explain
You’re cats who got the cream alright
And You ride that gravy train
Yet you send our gallant forces
To fight in foreign lands
Then undercut their pensions
Their blood is on your hands
-
Why not stand up for this nation
Where it matters and makes sense
No you’d rather spend our taxes
By defacing fifty pence
What’s Britannia ever done
That you make her take the blame
You gutless miserable hypocrites
Should hang your heads in shame
-
You care more for your ethnic votes
That point is plainly clear
‘Come one come all’ you simply say
‘You’re welcome over here
Bring all your wives, have many kids
We’ve plenty room to spare
You can demonstrate your hate for us
In old Trafalgar Square’
-
‘You can rail against our soldier boys
With your placards, beards and burkas
we’ll defend your rights to do so
Just you forget about the Ghurkhas
Forget St.George’s Day
We don’t really have a culture
We’ve stripped the national identity
As clean as any vulture’
-
‘But don’t forget who got you here
When comes election day
Our multi cultural preference
Only operates one way
And don’t you worry for your kids
You can have Sharia schools
Have green domed mosques and minarets
We’ve altered all the rules’
-
‘You’re welcome in your millions
Change whatever you don’t like
And if the Brits kick up a fuss
They can just get on their bike
For We owe you all a living
For our Empires awful ways
Ok,…. We …..gave you….. rule of law and railways
We don’t deserve your praise.
But…..
-
We’ve shared with you technology
Wrought from years of toil
From dank coalmines to medicine
And what to do with oil
We sent our kids to factories
When they should have gone to school
We had them cleaning chimneys
And fed them only gruel
-
We had them cold and hungry
On every city street
They were dying from consumption
No shoes upon their feet
They were dying in their thousands
Before they reached their teens
It was we the politicians
who lived like kings and queens
-
But this is only history
A subject no longer taught
They’ll soon forget all memories
why Britannia’s wars were fought
Their resilience ….well …. is waning
Resistance wearing thin
Were re-writing their own heritage
Were so adept at spin.
-
Go hang you politicians
Your time is running out
There’ll come the day in not too long
The Brits will face about
This deepening recession
will shunt you from the track
And we will have our Britannia
and Saint George will bring her back.

“100 years the jewish population of the East End was about 100,000. Bigots viewed them with suspicion and spread wild rumors about Jews wanting to take over the country.

Since then the Jews have moved out of proletarian districts such as Whitechapel and the latest wave of poor immigrants – who happen to be largely muslims – have moved in.

So guess who are now the focus of bigots such as the corrupt and reactionary Hazel Blears MP?”

Linda,

Not sure quite what your point is-it certainly does not seem to have any relevance to Sharia courts or the Beth Din.

Comparisons between immigrant Jews and immigrant Muslims seem to highlight the differences: from my own family background it seems to me that most Jews of that generation integrated, learnt English, took nothing off the state (there was nothing on offer), did not try to reproduce Russia or Poland in Whitechapel, none to my knowledge actively plotted or aspired to overthrow democracy or sought to apply their religious beliefs to non-Jews. Like I said, poor, poor analogy and you hole is just getting bigger.

B.

I should ask by the way what sort of twat nowadays talks unironically in terms of “proletarian” or “bourgeois”.

Do you know this man by any chance?

http://www.quizilla.com/user_images/V/Vodex/1124304168_rick2.jpg

My local Tory MP held a Cheese and Wine Party recently with Baroness Warsi as the guest of honour. What made me laugh was the topic was ‘A Hundred Years of Women’s Suffrage in Southgate’. Yes, I thought, while my ancestresses were out chaining themselves to railings and being force-fed, Baroness’ Warsi’s were sitting in purdah. But, Chronicstate will say ‘they have moved on from their purdah and into public life, and they happen to be muslim.’. Thing is, they would not have had the chance to move into the House of Lords if dwomen such as my grandmother had not put themselves on the line.

Many Muslims, on the surveys I have seen, rate their religious commonality far higher than their nationality, perhaps because of the caliphate aspiration.

It may also have something to do with the fact that most Muslims live in countries which didn’t exist seventy years ago and, most obviously in the cases of Indonesia and Nigeria but also in countries like Algeria, Guinea, Iraq and Pakistan, of large numbers of ethnic groups that have little in common. These states have had neither the internal power nor the unifying factor of ethnicity to develop a strong sense of national identity among all, or even most, of their people. The exceptions here are Albania, Egypt, Iran and Turkey which are old enough and ethnically homogeneous enough to develop a strong sense of national identity. Saudi Arabia would also fit the bill, though it is, as its name suggests, the fiefdom of one family.

The point that Lee Barnes failed to understand when he visited this site is that people who don’t have strong ethnic or national awareness tend to identify with their religion or their locality. As it was true for Germany and Italy in the nineteenth century, so it is true for millions of Muslims the world over today.

I wasn’t blaming anyone, I was pointing out that in South Asia legislation against homosexuality was enacted under the British “India Penal Code” and has not been changed, like many laws inherited from British rule (including many bizarre property laws). Clearly, it is the responsibility of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh for maintaining these laws. But as David brought up the difference between the attitudes of North Africans and South Asians, I posited that there is a historical context that could be relevant – namely, the colonial legacies left by the French and the British.

“I don’t know the composition of Malaysian society and how it differs to Indonesia, except Indonesia has a large Bhuddist population, Malaysia doesn’t.”

Malaysia has a large mostly non-Muslim Chinese population – mostly Buddhist but also including Christians – that still has some financial influence. The presence of a Buddhist population has nothing to do with attitudes towards homosexuality in either Indonesia or Malaysia.

>>> Not sure quite what your point is

Bit slow today then aren’t you?

I’m saying the scare stories about muslims are very similar to the scare stories that circulated about Jews a few decades ago.

And we all know where that ended.

The exceptions here are Albania, Egypt, Iran and Turkey which are old enough and ethnically homogeneous enough to develop a strong sense of national identity.

Hasan, Iran is very heterogeneous with native Persians constituting barely 50% of the population.

And at least 20% of Turkey is Kurdish.

And Egypt has the Mid-East’s largest Christian community.

Homogenous?

>>> Linda, d’you think Beth Din courts are a good thing or a bad thing?

I think proletarian justice will be a good thing, especially when it comes to dealing with your friend Borat.

I mean after all when comparing attitudes of, say, Russians, Americans and Argentinians we would expect a strong homogeneity of views, owing to them all being Christians, wouldn’t we?”

What Barad said.

The Mohammedans are the ones who bring up the uber-tranzi Ummah concept after all.

Sue R: My great-grandmother was not involved in the suffrage movement. She was too busy running a farm and raising nine children, while her husband was out boozing. Perhaps you think her female descendents, like Baroness Warsi, should not be publicly shamed. That’s an awful lot of women carrying the burden for their ancestors “inaction”.

“>>> Not sure quite what your point is

Bit slow today then aren’t you?

I’m saying the scare stories about muslims are very similar to the scare stories that circulated about Jews a few decades ago.”

Linda,

For the reasons given, there is no comparison. As I said, very poor analogy.

“And we all know where that ended.”

I know where this is going: Zionists controlling UK government are the “new Nazis. Peace-loving Muslims are the “new Jews”. I think you want the “Jews control the Olympics” post. Yawn.

B.

Dan: Agree, absolutely. There are a lot of women bearing the consequences of their ancestors inactivity, and you know what, most of them are in the ‘Third World’. You didn’t answer the question about your granddad? Was he the Chairman of Chingford Conservative Association?

>>> I know where this is going: Zionists controlling UK government

Well if it is, you took it there.

>>> I should ask by the way what sort of twat nowadays talks unironically in terms of “proletarian” or “bourgeois”.

The twats are the ones who think they are using the terms ironically when they are in fact using them sarcastically.

They are the sort of twats who think the use of whiny nasally undergraduate sarcasm proves them intellectually superior to others.

Twats like you, Borat.

“You didn’t answer the question about your granddad? Was he the Chairman of Chingford Conservative Association?”

Different side of the family. Yes he was.

“There are a lot of women bearing the consequences of their ancestors inactivity, and you know what, most of them are in the ‘Third World’.”

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. The fact is that Baroness Warsi is a British woman and, regardless of what her ancestors may or may not have done, she is entitled to the same rights as any other woman – and celebrate those rights. We are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors.

@Nick (ex South Africa)

It’s difficult to find stats for the UK, but all the indications are that the UK has similar problems as in the US with very high crime levels amongst black men…

Not difficult to find stats at all.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/s95race05.pdf
(page 97)

Prison Population – Males
White-British 68.9%
White-Irish 0.8%
White-Other 5.1%
Black-Caribbean 8.1%
Black-African 3.4%
Black-Other 2.9%
Indian 1.6%
Pakistani 2.0%
Bangladeshi 0.4%
Asian-Other 2.2%
Mixed-White/Caribbean 1.5%
Mixed-White/Asian 0.3%
Mixed-Other 0.8%
Chinese 0.4%
Other 0.7%

Prison Population – Females
White-British 63.1%
White-Irish 0.8%
White-Other 7.3%
Black-Caribbean 9.5%
Black-African 6.3%
Black-Other 3.5%
Indian 0.9%
Pakistani 0.4%
Bangladeshi 0.0%
Asian-Other 1.0%
Mixed-White/Caribbean 3.3%
Mixed-White/Asian 0.2%
Mixed-Other 1.4%
Chinese 0.8%
Other 0.8%

General Population census 2001 (note that white-other probably too low now due to EU migration)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/03/census_2001/html/ethnicity.stm
White-British 87.5%
White-Irish 1.2%
White-Other 2.6%
Black-Carribean 1.1%
Black-African 0.9%
Black-Other 0.2%
Indian 2.0%
Pakistani 1.4%
Bangladeshi 0.5%
Asian-Other 0.5%
Mixed-White/Caribbean 0.5%
Mixed-White/Asian 0.4%
Mixed-Other 0.3%
Chinese 0.4%
Other 0.4%

Things to note

Blacks compared to whites are incarcerated at a rate similar to the USA, about 7 times. However for Black Africans it is only 5 times the white rate.

The following groups have below average rates of incarceration: White-Irish, Indian, Bangladeshi, Mixed-White/Asian.

Pakistani and Bangladeshi women have very low rates of incarceration, particularly Bangladeshis.

The Chinese figures are inflated by a very large number of foreign nationals. British national Chinese have a very low rate of incarceration. Even with the inflation Chinese are about average.

Asians are incarcerated at a rate almost bang on average, slightly higher than for whites but broadly actually very similar (could be explained away by age demographics). Indians have a lower than white incarceration rate. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have rates similar to whites but a bit higher (higher for men, lower for women, overall similar) despite being significantly poorer than Caribbeans, a counter to the idea that poverty causes crime. Chinese are also similar to whites. Overall it is not useful to talk of a BME over-representation in crime stats, it is pretty much entirely a BLACK over-representation in crime stats. Everyone else is broadly similar while blacks are almost an order of magnitude greater.

My local Tory MP held a Cheese and Wine Party recently with Baroness Warsi as the guest of honour. What made me laugh was the topic was ‘A Hundred Years of Women’s Suffrage in Southgate’. Yes, I thought, while my ancestresses were out chaining themselves to railings and being force-fed, Baroness’ Warsi’s were sitting in purdah.

so should everyone have brought a certificate of membership of british anglo-saxon blood and culture going back to the time of the suffragettes?

I have no soft spot for Sayeeda Warsi (she’s a tory, and seems broadly homophobic), but she has been, amongst other things, chairwoman of the Savayra Foundation, a Kashmiri women’s empowerment charity. And you know what, Sue R, there were Muslim feminists in British India. And the practice of Purdah was being criticised, from within the Muslim community, as far back as 1905. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rokeya_Sakhawat_Hussain

I liked your list of imperialism’s great achievements though. Esp that you namedropped Lenin to derive a patina of legitimacy, while missing the moral point of Lenin’s critique, which was that imperialism also produced mass famines (which ended as soon as India’s state became subject to democratic control), forced conscription for nationalistic war, and brutal economic exploitation. Can’t help feeling that bringing in all the ‘good’ stuff imperialism did historically, while ignoring all the bad stuff is rather historically insensitive.

Especially when you also reduce the usefulness of knowledge of the historical development of legal and cultural norms (as Dan provided) to a desire to ‘blame whitey’.

Dan – such contextualising too often spills over into excuse-making. Personally, I don’t give a shit about the context. They have homophobic laws in the here and now because they are homophobic societies, most of which homophobia is driven by a viciously homophobic religion.

Linda,

You sound upset-why not just get it off your chest instead of all this pussy footing around: you hate Jews here, Israel or wherever and never heard a conspiracy theory about them you did not believe. You care nothing for human rights, democracy, Jews, gays or whoever and you long for a sharia run state because it will really show the Zionist puppetmasters and their neo imperialist automatons.

And for some reason you seem to have a grudge against Mr Baron-Cohen.

Cuddles,

B. xx

i’m still reeling at the first response of someone who upon seeing a relatively progressive Muslim woman in public life thinks, essentially: “but your ancestral culture was barbaric and ours wasn’t!” Sets the bar pretty high for what Muslims have to do to join your glorious progressive tradition, doesn’t it. (I’m hoping for an intervention from Morgoth here)

>>> you hate Jews here

Congratulatons Borat, it took a little longer for you to sling the usual insult but I knew it would come.

I won’t dignify it with further comment, save to remark that it is a sign of desperation on your part.

I’ve given you a sound thrashing and, cornered, you have resorted to the “antisemite” smear.

Pathetic.

“Of course there is a colonial legacy. To ignore this just because of your defensiveness about imperialism is to ignore these countries’ historical contexts and the impact this has on attitudes towards homosexuality.”

Canada and South Africa, to name just two former British colonies, today both have legal same sex marriage, yet were subject to the same “colonial-era” laws.

“Yes, this should be put to all prospective parliamentary candidates, local councillors and civil servants. For me, if you answer ‘no’ to this question, you’re no better than a racist”

You would have had a great career under Stalin.

To say nothing of the fact that yet again, you don’t get it that religion is not a race.

I think proletarian justice will be a good thing, especially when it comes to dealing with your friend Borat.

Can you answer a direct question?

Or, was this a spoof?

K Ronstadt: under what circumstances would one be allowed, justifiably, to term you an antisemite? Or do you not believe that such a concept exists? It’s just that you seem to have decided that anyone who uses the term or detects it in others is necessarily mendacious, and anyone who has the term used against them is necessary innocent.

“such contextualising too often spills over into excuse-making.”

I wasn’t making excuses. But context is important when trying to ascertain why North African Arabs have a less negative attitude towards homosexuality than South Asians. I think colonial history is one aspect of this context and is important as many post-colonial states chose to sustain many colonial laws because to start over again would be a massive undertaking.

“They have homophobic laws in the here and now because they are homophobic societies, most of which homophobia is driven by a viciously homophobic religion.”

Homophobia exists the world over, including in societies where homosexuality is not illegal and where same sex couples can marry. And often religion is not the driver. We have yet to get to a point where someone’s sexuality is unimportant and where no parents would freak out if their sons came out. Religion has nothing to do with it, at least in Western societies.

I’d also add that India is a mostly Hindu society and there is nothing in Hinduism to suggest homosexuality is wrong. Yet, India’s anti-gay laws – inherited from the India Penal Code (Section 377) – remain in place, although largely not enforced. India has also inherited the anomaly in English law which refused to recognise that lesbianism existed (apparently, Queen Victoria didn’t see the point in outlawing sex between women because she did not believe it was possible). And because, as a result, there is nothing in Indian law to state that marriage is strictly between men and women, there have been instances of legal lesbian marriages. Nevertheless, such out-moded laws remain on the statute book because no law-makers want to touch the issue of homosexuality. The Sikhs are notably anti-gay in India, arguably more active on this issue than the Muslims.

“>>> you hate Jews here

Congratulatons Borat, it took a little longer for you to sling the usual insult but I knew it would come.

I won’t dignify it with further comment, save to remark that it is a sign of desperation on your part.

I’ve given you a sound thrashing and, cornered, you have resorted to the “antisemite” smear.”

Sound thrashing? Not that I noticed but believe it if you want. You persisted with a very poor analogy between Muslim and Jewish immigrants that you entirely failed to justify. It seems you are ignorant of both groups. Maybe you failed GCSE sociology (if that is possible)!

Why do you think it is an insult to be called anti-semitic? You seem to thrive on unashamed Jew baiting.

Are you (in your terminology) “bourgeois” by the way or do you imagine yourself some kind of working class hero of the internet?

B xx

I claim not to hate Jews, but they’re all I ever think about. I’ve never posted a word on anything else here. But it’s OK. As long as I just claim not to hate them after spewing my endless filth, that will suffice.

I’m something less than an animal really, all I have is my wretched hatred. Someday something will give, and a random Jew will bear the brunt of that.

Alec,

Although she seems like a ludicrous parody, I fear that Linda is not a spoof.

B.

Homogenous?

Relative to other Muslim countries, yes. Brazil, Israel, Peru, Switzerland, Spain and the USA are several examples of very diverse Judeo-Christian countries which have a strong national identity. All one needs is a enough people to identify strongly with a state – in the four countries I picked out, this is the case.

Incidentally, as we keep pointing out about Islam, religion and ethnicity are not the same; Christian Egyptians are still Egyptians.

“I claim not to hate Jews, but they’re all I ever think about.”

Linda from your own mouth this pretty much describes a Jew hater. Remember the first step is to be honest with yourself and others (even if you are slime!)

B xx

Dan. Yes homophobia exists all over the world, but in decent, progressive societies it is not institutionalized in discriminatory laws.

” I agree with Lenin (the real one not the tosspot who is lying in his tomb) that ‘Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism’ ”

Indeed. It is notable that Lenin (who only incidentally was a psychopathic mass murderer, on his days off from being the messiah) liberated all the central Asian lands previously subjugated by the Imperialist tzars. It is not for nothing that Lenin is worshipped as a national liberator all the way from Kazakhstan to Tajikistan.

I appear to have missed the ’sound thrashing’ L Ron administered to Barad, could someone point it out?

Seriously, can we have TheIrie back? Because, bar the limited comedy value, L Ron makes me feel physically ill.

@Hasan

It may also have something to do with the fact that most Muslims live in countries which didn’t exist seventy years ago

I’m not sure that’s a valid point, Hasan. Solidarity amongst different tribes and castes predates the modern borders of many Muslim-majority countries.

The idea that there was ever anything approaching a unified caliphate even under the reigns of Abu Bakr and Umar, is just ahistorical mumbo-jumbo propagated by the HuTs and Islamisation-of-knowledge peddlers of this world.

and, most obviously in the cases of Indonesia and Nigeria

I couldn’t say with regards Indonesia, but Nigeria certainly, is very much divided on a North/South/East basis and this was the de facto arrangement prior to independence and the process of fomenting a national identity. Nowadays, Nigeria is more conspicuously segregated according to which Premier League team you support,

but also in countries like Algeria, Guinea, Iraq and Pakistan, of large numbers of ethnic groups that have little in common.

Algeria is almost virtually monocultural and monoethnic with the exception of the nomads living in the deep south who bear no national affiliation. Kabyle Berbers, whilst designated as a separate ethnic group mainly by virtue of their language, are almost indistinguishable from the majority of Algerians, many of whom also have fair skin.

These states have had neither the internal power nor the unifying factor of ethnicity to develop a strong sense of national identity among all, or even most, of their people. The exceptions here are Albania, Egypt, Iran and Turkey which are old enough and ethnically homogeneous enough to develop a strong sense of national identity. Saudi Arabia would also fit the bill, though it is, as its name suggests, the fiefdom of one family.

Egypt is not at all ethnically homogenous. There are clear differences between say many Cairo/Alex.-living ‘Copts’ (Greek, Armenian and Turkish in ancestry); Turks in eastern Sharqiyyah and Cairo; the Berbers of Siwa and the Western Desert; the Sinai bedouin; Mid-to-Upper Egyptians of mixed Arab/African ancestry; and the Nubians of the deep south and scattered everywhere. Indeed, the Upper Egyptian Copts have more in common in terms of appearance with their Muslim neighbours than many of their Cairo/Alex counterparts.

A favourite topic of conversation in Egypt (like almost anywhere) is beautiful girls. Cairenes rank girls from Mansourah, in the Delta, as being the most beautiful in Egypt (and the world – no mean feat faced with so many pretty ladies). It basically comes down to the presence of the ‘green eye gene’, now somewhat of an urban myth as Egyptians with green eyes can be found all over the north. This may well have come about due to Napoleon’s troops carrying on with local girls in amongst their ‘historiographical’ expeditions.

Turkey too, is quite heterogeneous. For instance, compare a Qawqash from Trabizond, a rural Anatolian, a Smyrnan Greek or one of the Kurmanji Kurds (not by any means heterogeneous either).

Incidentally, as we keep pointing out about Islam, religion and ethnicity are not the same; Christian Egyptians are still Egyptians.

Of course, but religious affiliation is often quite divisive in Egypt.

Barad -
you are wasting your time on this ridiculous self-parody. He is the one who said “And we all know where that ended”, and then whined that YOU took it there … amazing, such a total lack of self-awareness.
As I say, perhaps a waste to time, but hilarious nonetheless, so please don’t stop on my account.

Christian Egyptians are still Egyptians

Yes they are. And good to see someone pointing that out.

Copts are as loathe to ‘marry out’ as much as Sylheti Bengalis and Kashmiris. And they identify themselves with Egypt (and Ahly or Zamalek F.C.) as much as the next man.

“Yes homophobia exists all over the world, but in decent, progressive societies it is not institutionalized in discriminatory laws.”

Sure, but why is it that North African Arabs are seemingly less overwhelmingly homophobic than South Asians? North Africa is probably about 98-99% Sunni Muslim, whereas South Asia is more diverse both culturally and in terms of religion. So what is the difference do you think? I’ve pointed out that one difference is the fact that North Africa was mostly French whereas South Asia was mostly British (non-British colonies in India such as Goa (Portuguese) and Pondicherry (French) are notably more liberal in attitudes). So, what other factors can explain the difference in attitudes?

Of course, but religious affiliation is often quite divisive in Egypt.

It can be John and there is seldom a time when some religio-political bone of contention isn’t festering away somewhere…but that doesn’t mean that people should use the Egyptian pig slaughter to exaggerate intercommunal tensions.

So, what other factors can explain the difference in attitudes?

What about the Moghuls? They ruled much of the area for a great deal longer than the Brits…did they have an influence? Indeed, aren’t they still there…

Please feed me!

The Mughals had influence, undoubtedly, but only Aurangzeb really tried to impose Sharia and mass forced conversion in order to Islamicise India. The result was a backlash and a steady decline. Before him, emporers were largely interested in earning money and spending large parts of it on massive architectural legacies such as the Taj Mahal (some of their art was certainly homoerotic). Akbar, for instance, married a Hindu princess and was extremely tolerant of Hindus.

In my mind, the extreme intolerance towards homosexuality in South Asia has more to do with cultural attitudes than religion as this prejudice cuts across the communal divide. But defining and legislating against homosexuality was carried out by the British; before the British, such matters were issues of family/kinship honour (likewise, dowry and sutee were family or community issues) rather than being subject to criminal courts.

If only European Muslims were as tolerant as Israeli Jews:

“Over half of the Jewish population in Israel believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason, according to a recent survey by the Geocartography Institute.

The survey, which was conducted for the Center Against Racism, also found that over 75 percent of participants did not approve of apartment buildings being shared between Arabs and Jews. Sixty percent of participants said they would not allow an Arab to visit their home.”

About 40 percent of participants agreed that “Arabs should have their right to vote for Knesset revoked”. The number was 55 percent lower in the previous survey. Also, over half of the participants agreed that Israel should encourage its Arab citizens to immigrate from the country.

Over half of the participants said they would not want to work under the direct management of an Arab, and 55 percent said “Arabs and Jews should be separated at entertainment sites”.

‘Arab culture inferior’
Participants were asked what they felt when they overheard someone speaking Arabic. Thirty-one percent said they felt hatred, while 50 percent said they felt fear.

Over 56 percent of participants said they believed that Israel’s Arab citizens posed both a security and a demographic threat to the country.

When asked what they thought of Arab culture, over 37 percent replied, “The Arab culture is inferior.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

——————————-
Strangely these figures and the presence of fascists at the highest level of the Israeli government cause David T no cause for concern.
Why should they? His focus in life is demonising the Muslim minority and they are grist to his mill.

” I’ve pointed out that one difference is the fact that North Africa was mostly French whereas South Asia was mostly British (non-British colonies in India such as Goa (Portuguese) and Pondicherry (French) are notably more liberal in attitudes). So, what other factors can explain the difference in attitudes?”

Coincidence does not equal causal connection (they usually teach that during the first term on most good university courses).

Plus, as others have said, blaming Whitey 60 years down the line is laughable.

Someone
“Plus, as others have said, blaming Whitey 60 years down the line is laughable.”

Must remember that next time someone on HP blames ills in a particular society on the fact that Muslims ruled there 200 odd years ago

“HP blames ills in a particular society on the fact that Muslims ruled there 200 odd years ago:” ?? Can you be more specific?

I find it hard to believe this sort of extrapolation though, Dan. Based on nothing more than the views of a few Muslims in France, Germany and Britain, and the fact that, with the exception of Britain (which we have established, despite a majority of Muslims being of Pak/Ind/Bangla extraction, is actually pretty heterogeneous), Germany and France’s Muslims come disproportionately from the same part of the world, British Imperial laws are purported to be a contributory factor in the survey results for views towards homosexuality by UK Muslims…I find this hard to believe.

I consulted Wiki, as you do, and surveyed their well-constucted and informative page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world#Northern_Africa

It’s by no means comprehensive, but it would seem that North Africa (the Maghreb) has some pretty strict laws as far as homosexuality is concerned. Many former French colonies don’t seem to fare any better either. All round, I’m not convinced…don’t doubt your sincerity though – perhaps it’s my inbuilt patriotism chip that ’sniffs’ when any criticism of empire is floated… ;-)

Ironicist: Give an example of where Muslims ruled 200 years ago that is suffering from social problems. Are you thinking of the discussion about the Mafia, perchance? Also, the survey you mentioned that shows Israeli Jews are wary of Israeli/Palestinian Arabs…did they do a corresponding survey among Palestinian Arabs? Or do you think that only one group has the monopoly on social segregation?

His focus in life is demonising the Muslim minority and they are grist to his mill.

Whilst there is undue attention given to quibbles over which obscure Qur’anic verse said what and whether a hadith narration chain is valid here occasionally, I challenge you to show where David T or any of the other posters have ‘demonised’ a Muslim minority. It’s a specious and redundant argument and you know it.

I didn’t express that very well, what I meant was ‘Give an example of a country which was Muslim 200 years ago, is still experiencing problems and people are blaming any subsequent ills on Muslims (who are no longer in control).’ The only example that may come close is the Southern Italy example, is that what you were thinking? Although, Muslims stopped being in charge there a lot longer ago than 200 years.

Do people speak truth in surveys do you suppose?

Manchurian: There’s also the issue of the difference in penalties. Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria have penalties of a fine up to five years imprisonment in the article you referred to. The article is a little vague on Bangladesh and refers only to vigilante death squads rather than statutory penalties, but in India the penalty is up to 10 years imprisonment (never actually enforced) and in Pakistan the penalty is anything up to life imprisonment (although vigilantes are probably likely to enforce the death penalty in NWFP and other areas). Further north in Central Asia, homosexuality is legal in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, all of which are Muslim majority countries.

The fact is that the Muslim world is not monolithic and there are cultural differences towards sexuality, with the historical context playing an important role in defining attitudes.

The fact is that the Muslim world is not monolithic and there are cultural differences towards sexuality, with the historical context playing an important role in defining attitudes.

Quite right…I’ll drink to that! Hope you’ll excuse my inbuilt skepticism regards all things ‘it were the Empire like’…

Do people speak truth in surveys do you suppose?

That’s a bone of contention, certainly. I remember doing some research many moons ago into Japanese marketing techniques. One of the books I read contained a chapter analysing the usefulness of surveys. I remember one of the salient points being that the Japanese invariably try to give the answer they deem most agreeable with the interviewer being stereotypically ultra-polite as they are. This obviously had a bearing on question design and other research methods.

It could well be that some of the Muslims interviewed were not resident of he country in question…who could say, but a point aptly raised, Larkers my good fellow.

Let’s start with the obvious: you can get any result you want with a survey if you know what you were doing. Believe me, I know.

We’d need to know a lot more about the methodology. But even so the one thing that really surprised me was the 0% figure re homosexuality. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a 0% figure in a poll before. I think that should give the Insane Optimists led by David T pause for thought.

One point about Muslims in France. The original Muslim population I think I am right in saying was predominantly composed of people who collaborated with the French Empire and who were in danger of persecution by the new post colonial states. They therefore set a particular “tone” for Muslim culture in France – one that was not unsympathetic to French culture and something of a template for Muslims who came after them, although more and more Muslim immigrants have had less affinity with French culture.

KRondstadt, what have you got against wardytron? He seems an amiable cove to me.

Sue R, I must protest. Amiable cove I might be but I’ve been extremely rude towards K Ronstadt and will continue to do so and strongly encourage others to do likewise until he stops commenting here.

Sue R I have already challenged Ironicist to provide specifics on “HP blames ills in a particular society on the fact that Muslims ruled there 200 odd years ago:”

I doubt if we will hear from him as it was clearly one of those shoot your mouth off things. I have a feeling Ironicist is just a new incarnation for one of the habitual creeps here, but can’t yet suss out which one.

Er…Field’s entire contribution

>>> Sue R, I must protest. Amiable cove I might be but I’ve been extremely rude towards K Ronstadt and will continue to do so and strongly encourage others to do likewise until he stops commenting here.

You, Borat, Someone can be rude and offensive all you like. As I said yesterday, it is water off a duck’s back.

So long as this blog encourages anti-muslim bigots like you to spew your race hate, and justify the genocidal policies of Israel, I will return.

>>> “I claim not to hate Jews, but they’re all I ever think about.”

>>> Linda from your own mouth this pretty much describes a Jew hater. Remember the first step is to be honest with yourself and others (even if you are slime!)

Borat, you really are a dimwit.

That comment was posted by an imposter, under the name R Kronstadt.

>>> Why do you think it is an insult to be called anti-semitic?

As I wrote yesterday Borat, the first time someone slung that insult here it really hurt. The second time less so. But I soon realized that it is standard practice here among people who are incapable of offering a rational argument or defending themselves against charges of hypocrisy.

And so it is in this case.

You raised a concern about Sharia courts for Muslims. I pointed out that the Jewish community has had similar institutions for more than 100 years.

Your response to having your hypocrisy exposed in this way was first to make bigoted comments about Muslims and, when this failed, you made a series of infantile ad hominem attacks culminating in an accusation – made without a single shred of evidence to justify it (because there is none) – of antisemitism.

L Ron: should that not be ‘water off a Jew-hating motherfucker’s back’?

“Must remember that next time someone on HP blames ills in a particular society on the fact that Muslims ruled there 200 odd years ago”

Indeed. When and if it happens, in another 500 years or so. Don’t believe it’s happened so far.

>>> Strangely these figures and the presence of fascists at the highest level of the Israeli government cause David T no cause for concern. Why should they? His focus in life is demonising the Muslim minority and they are grist to his mill.

Ironicist you backed up what we said with facts and quoted sources to prove your point.

Which is why you have been subjected to abuse, like me.

For professional Zionazis like DavidT by contrast, a different standard applies. They merely have to accuse someone of what they term “antisemitism”. The accusation itself is proof of guilt, in their eyes.

A kind of trial by ordeal.

“100 years the jewish population of the East End was about 100,000. Bigots viewed them with suspicion and spread wild rumors about Jews wanting to take over the country”

You forgot the bit about how the synagogues were rife with mad rabbis preaching hate, demanding Haredi law for everyone in the UK, threatening to surround parliament with 10,000 brawny Jewish boys if their various demands weren’t met, plus the odd Jewish malcontent exploding bombs on the underground.
I am surprised you missed out such obvious matters.

Given Linda’s post at 7:04, I think “Jew-hating motherfucker” is appropriate, if a little on the mild side.

I do wish that HP would do something about Far Righters like “K Ronstadt” and his mates, they ruin threads, which is their purpose.

“But I soon realized that it is standard practice here among people who are incapable of offering a rational argument”

Like those who claim that Israel has “genocidal policies”, you mean?
Talk about a 10 watt bulb …

Like the impostor (K Ronstadt), I don’t hate Jews.

I just enjoy seeing harm done to them.

>>>That is pretty remarkable. Gomaa should clearly resign from the Coexist Foundation.

Its not remarkable at all, its typical whenever and wherever we see Muslims attain political or organisational power: the MCB, Islam Channel TV, Liberty run by Muslim Chakrabarti, the Palestinian charity that was breeding terrorists. Islam should not have a solidified social place in mainstream society, beyond its mosques. When Muslims get it, its not to be nice to people, friendly to Jews, encouraging to women, demonstrably and unequivocally denouncing of Muslim terrorism and its ideology etc.

What happens is expressions of resentment, demands, and slippery denying evasions re. the facts of terrorism in their community and where it comes from ideologically.

>>>>Gomaa should clearly resign from the Coexist Foundation.

To resign means he might acknowledge and admit the unacceptable nature of those ideas; no Muslim ever does when confronted with criticism from others because the ideas they have are an aspect of their so called faith.

>>>>You raised a concern about Sharia courts for Muslims. I pointed out that the Jewish community has had similar institutions for more than 100 years. Your response to having your hypocrisy exposed in this way was first to make bigoted comments about Muslims

YOUR hypocrisy consists in equating Jewish and Muslim culture and the rights and priviliges each enjoy in secular Britain. The presence of Muslims in Britain is enormously problematic in terms of conflicting values, non integration, home grown terrorism and terrorist links to Pakistan, Somalia and other places, and here you are saying just because the Jews get something Muslims should get it too! Very childish, and very pathetic.

YOUR response to such obvious and necessary criticism is to throw mud at it in terms of “Islamophobia!” etc – pathetic again and part of the problem re. the presence of Muslims in Britain, denying criticism of themselves while feeling entitled to apply it to everyone else.

Still hungry!

K Ronstadt, ‘I’ think, you are one of the “I was only following Orders” brigade, that you don’t yet and probably never will, accept that you are, doesn’t negate the fact that you and your fellow far ‘left’ comrades are culpable and indeed, in my view, bare a direct responsibility for the disgusting rise in the blatant anti semitism we can all see, quite unashamedly, happening before our very eyes.

You, Poor K Ronstadt, will never, I fear, ‘get’ it, you will always hold the view that the undeniable and in most cases much more horrific crimes perpetrated by the various ‘left’ wing protectors of the poor and downtrodden are perfectly justifiable so long as the ends justify the means.

Do you Know that the word “Comrades”,the word that you and your fellow travelers use with such Gay abandon, is now and forever linked to your soviet heros, you know wonderful anti Imperialists such as Stalin and Molotov, real ’saints’ of the proletariat

What’s that you say? oh thats right, sorry, sorry, sorry , Stalin and Molotov were not ‘left’ wing were they, silly me, of course not.
I see now, that is why it is so easy to get confused, in your world, if one of your co-Ideologists does something a bit ‘dodgy’ you simply declare them to be non ‘left’ wing and that makes everything just fine and dandy, in ‘your’ world.
Ahhh that’s why Bin laden and Zawahiri and the millions of other homophobic, jew hating, woman hating, western hating Islamist Theocratic Lunatics are not true followers of that wonderful Islamic Scripture. Right, got it.

What??!! One of the ‘just following orders brigade’? I’ll have you know I was *giving* the fucking orders. And what’s more, I had a hard-on the size of a horse’s when they shot the naked women into a pit.

But don’t dare call me an anti-Semite.

I do wish that HP would do something about Far Righters like “K Ronstadt” and his mates, they ruin threads, which is their purpose.

Agreed. I’m not coming back while he’s allowed here.

Someone – thanks.

I pointed out that the Jewish community has had similar institutions for more than 100 years.

Wrong. But then that is characteristic of the anti-Zionist position. Misinterpret the Jewish/Zionist/Israeli position either through ignorance or swallowing the propaganda (or both) then castigate the Jewish Community/Zionism from a false base.

Zionazis

You fail.

genocidal policies of Israel

Please explain to me which policies of Israel are genocidal i.e. designed to wipe about the Arabs as a race. Or are you using the anti-Zionist definition of genocidal i.e. any policy of Israel which isn’t instant and permanent capitulation to the Muslim Palestinians?

KR, I have a thought exercise for you. Imagine an anti-Semite. Think of the things they would say and do, and how they would attempt to justify and disguise their position. Then imagine yourself as viewed from a third party perspective. Do you see any similarities?

Greg, KR is well aware of what he is. There is no need for such an exercise (though you outline it well).

He is a man born out of time, out of place and ‘out of occupation’. These being, respectively, the early 1940s; Byelorussia; and a corporal in a Police Battalion. He missed his calling, and at least we can be thankful for that.

I am beginning to feel like Wardyron and others. Having a poster call others “Zionazi” makes this place unclean.

Interesting that you’ve established a big problem with Mufti Ali Gomaa, so now I await eagerly the next step according to this blog’s usual way of working.

Tom Harris’s guest post here condemned Osama Saeed for having once described Yusuf al-Qaradawi as an “eminent scholar”.

So what will you say of those who describe Ali Gomaa as one of two favoured “scholastic giants”? None other than your Quilliam pals, in writing on their website.

Oh, and the other of their “scholastic giants” is Abdullah Bin Bayyah, who is Qaradawi’s deputy in the International Union of Muslim Scholars.

“Comparisons between immigrant Jews and immigrant Muslims seem to highlight the differences: from my own family background it seems to me that most Jews of that generation integrated, learnt English, took nothing off the state (there was nothing on offer), did not try to reproduce Russia or Poland in Whitechapel, none to my knowledge actively plotted or aspired to overthrow democracy or sought to apply their religious beliefs to non-Jews. Like I said, poor, poor analogy and you hole is just getting bigger.”

These myths of Jewish “history” may be comfortable, but too much schmaltz is bad for the heart.
Many Jews in the East End became (or were already) anarchists and communists. Check out the old pictures, see the Hebrews (Yiddish) names of shops and papers and journals, check out the communal battles; check out the Jewish prostitutes, thieves and criminals, the Yeshiva bochers who schonored off many, and assorted others as well as those that did well at school or at business and the one or two who became playrights and artists. My (great) grandparents apparently never spoke a single word of English (they didn’t have to).

Of course, antisemites tried to portray that community as “dirty”, as “barbaric”, as “unwestern”. But we knew that those who thought like that were like the very racists we were trying to escape.

So, yes, the experience is far more similar, at least, in the working-class Muslim communites in the East End and elsewhere.

It is also interesting to note too that most of the “radicalism” emerges not from these communities (they are too busy trying to survive, trying to get food on the table) but from the “Aglacised”, middle-class kids of more established communities. You know, just like the middle-calls Jewish kids who joined the protest movements and “revolutions” of the 60’s.

But, fo course, you could just fall into the mistry eyed notion of romaticism, but, in so doing, you are erasing an entire, and interesting, part of Jewish history; a history, in fact, that speaks to our humanity.

Oh, and I forgot, the battle between the Zionists and the Bundists, between those who saw a better life for themslves in Palestine and those who believed a better life lay in the revolution.
“100″ years later – we know who was right; and, thank goodness they were.

great post Ignorance

though well, I’d much rather the Bundists had been right.

Though admittedly that would have required European fascism being aborted at birth (no WWII), central Europe turning into a coalition of broadly socialist, democratic nation states, and Stalin refraining from annexing them.

and Stalin refraining from annexing them.

And refrain from killing 50 million of his own citizens would have been a nice gesture too.

Just to second/third a couple of earlier posters here. The idiot Benjamin was indulged far too long on this blog and allowed to sidetrack intelligent debate on these threads.

Kronstadt is doing the same. He has the sole (and rather sad) purpose of stopping those a little more able and intelligent than he from having a discussion.

Notwithstanding the above, the moment someone starts to use terms like ‘Zionazi’ they make it apparent that they have the intellectual capacity of a four year old and thus probably shouldn’t be here anyway. Someone needs to tell their mummy.

MattG

So early Jewish immigrants were Communists and so called anarchists? (whatever the hell that means – really!).

So what?

So were/are millions of others. The point referred to here is that of religious nutters believing in mumbo jumbo intolerant towards contrary ideas and values; of people who want to impose or spread their theological nonsense wherever they go; of people with a violent ideology they can and do invoke. Of people who are doing that now – Muslims – not people who never have – Jews. Of a problematic community – Muslims – not one that lives peacably side by side with others and in wider terms makes a good contribution to society built on ethics of hard work and self reliance – Jews. Jews can be trusted with some degree of a religious system, Muslims cannot: when was the last time you saw Jews shouting they will behead people for making cartoons about someone in their mythology? In fact, making abusive cartoons about Jews is common in the Islamic Middle East. Muslims are hostile, basically; Jews are not.

Some people just never stop…..constantly playing nonsense run-around games avoiding and obscuring facts, yes – I agree with others – using terms like “Neonazi” and also “Zionist” as the rhetorical equivalent of fisticuffs, dragging adult debate into dumbed down playground terms.

So, what other factors can explain the difference in attitudes?

Me, I think it has something to do with our crappy British way of treating confessional groupings as a) valid and b) worthy of “respect”. We’ve allowed Muslims and other religious groups to be considered as a discrete group, encouraged ghettoisation, pandered to ever more ridiculous demands for special laws about “religious discrimination”, allowed the development of uninspected sectarian schools and been totally ball-less in dealing with extremist bastards. In doing this, we’ve allowed hardline attitudes to embed themselves in “the Muslim community” because there has been little to no expectation on “the Muslim community” to integrate.

In France, as I understand it, there’s none of this bollocks. They don’t even count the numbers of Muslims in their country. They don’t have any truck with women covering their faces in public institutions. I think their secularism has encouraged Muslims to consider themselves more a part of wider French society and thus you get more reasonable, progressive attitudes as a result.

There’s probably also something about relative levels of education between Muslims from Pakistan and those from N Africa.

Dan
How do you explain that Saudi Arabia and Iran were never colonized, yet homosexuality is a capital offense in both countries?

And how do you explain that the USA was also colonized, but homosexuals aren’t imprisoned or put to death simply because they are homosexuals.

And what effect did the Roman colonization have on Britain? What unpleasantnesses can be excused by that?

Obviously, FF, if the English courts started crucifying people, those “progressives” would excuse it by referring to Roman practices. They would, wouldn’t they? Do tell me they would.

Afghanistan was never colonized, yet homosexuality was a capital offense there, until after the west invaded in 2001.

Regarding Muslims in prison (from Washington Post):

“In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about 3 percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry. Research by the Open Society Institute, an advocacy organization, shows that in the Netherlands 20 percent of adult prisoners and 26 percent of all juvenile offenders are Muslim; the country is about 5.5 percent Muslim. In Belgium, Muslims from Morocco and Turkey make up at least 16 percent of the prison population, compared with 2 percent of the general populace, the research found. ”

In France the figure is a stunning 50% plus.

This is not a great advert for Islam or indeed policies of mass immigration which have been pursued.

I think an analysis would also show an even more remarkable pattern: whereas the vast majority of UK prisoners will come from single parent backgrounds, the number of Muslims coming from such backgrounds will be very small.

Something else is at work.

French Muslims

They were only referred to as French Muslims after 9/11. French friends of mine all of whom had their roots in North Africa were never called any such thing before that date. Liberals crafted that nonsense in their PC efforts to pander to that religion.

Great to see OP commenting here again

I should add that there was a huge survey done last year ( I forget which but can find a link later) that asked the French, with as broad a sample of backgrounds as possible, to identify with a religion or religious values. The overwhelming majority (75%) said they identified most closely with christianity/catholicism. 3% identified with Islam. Anecdotally that ties up with the people I knew there. It was only when the extremists turned it into the world’s biggest mafioso styled gang that it became something to claim to belong to for kids. And nowhere more so than Britain where we elevate talking heads for that fucked up religion before they ever managed any enlightenment that would put them on a par with christianity and mean their opinion actually matters. We are least likely to hear any direct criticism of that religion in general out of some peculiar respect owed to “moderate muslims” as is often touted here by David T.

Your use of the phrase ‘hoofter’ and ‘nasty ugly little faggot’ on your blog leads me to believe that your hostility to Islam is not primarily based on its intolerance towards homosexuality then…?

Going by this page on the “Muslim West Facts Project” site, this survey doesn’t appear to be much more than a PR offensive (probably Saudi-funded) by two well-known hacks, the authors of Who Speaks for Islam?

Zero credibility. Next.

Interesting panel discussion featuring Dalia Mogahed and Irshad Manji.

Watch Mogahed squirm, e.g., when asked directly, “Is Islam a religion of peace?”

And towards the end (about 53:00), when Manji makes an interesting point about reinterpretation of texts, Mogahed lies through her teeth to support her basic line, that “Islam is perfect, it’s all politics only” (which of course the leftistas on this blog will be only too glad to hear.)

Not to mention that she thinks highly of Sheikh Ali Gomaa…

Interestingly enough, this “Coexist Foundation” outfit has a parallel web site in Arabic. Why only Arabic?

And, chasing down their Registered Charity number (1113284) leads to this, which speaks for itself.

A shell.

Oh really Waz? And since you didn’t bother reading the post I’m damn sure you must feel the same way about the words “bitch” and “cunt”. Noone has yet gotten around to making either of those words bigoted hate speech. But I am sure you will curiously figure out I’m not a feminist by your same drive-by logic. And who wouldn’t be hostile to Islam. There is nothing to like.

No, I agree calling someone a bitch or a cunt is obviously gender-loaded. Does the general acceptance of other terms used to demean groups of people make using established hate speech such as ‘faggot’ acceptable? Being a Tory and feminist seems more plausible than a feminist homophobe though.

Sure it does. As long as the terms bitch and cunt get thrown around with gay abandon. And especially when dealing with a mysoginist like Perez Hilton.

No, I agree calling someone a bitch or a cunt is obviously gender-loaded.

Is it? I call people of both genders both of these things.