Harry's Place

‘Watch out should you be in Trafalgar Square this Saturday, when Lowkey, Daud Abdullah, Jeremy Corbyn, Jenny Tonge and other luminaries of our times will dare to tell the truth at a “Stop the War” demonstration.’

Which phone box have they reserved?

“Allow your children to be educated by these shallow pop stars”

I love irony!

So, Lowkey believes in 9/11 conspiracy……..
Tonge in a “Zionist” conspiracy……………….

And all of this at the time at David Aaronovitch publishes his book on conspriacy theory…………

hmmmmmmm……….

Got it!! stwc is NOTHING but a clever marketing ploy for Aaronovitch who, we are TOLD is a Zionist, and so, the anti-zionism and antisemitism of stwc is nothing OTHER than a Zionist PLOT………..

It all fits!

They’ve lost it. 100% lost it.

Lowkey is, inevitably, one of the other performers who’ll be performing at the Stop the War benefit at the Hackney Empire which Lucy Lips recently covered.

It seems the StWC are pushing that nasty little racist play, Seven Jewish Children

I wonder if they’ve invited the SWP’s old fav. Gilad Atzmon for an encore as well?

see http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/1236/27/

What a bunch of cunts. I’d love to be in Trafalgar Square on Saturday, except I have to be in Blackpool instead. In the meantime I’ll be working up my cover version of Dylan’s “Neighbourhood Bully”…

“Let your children sing songs about Jesus and the place of his birth,
But not about the children dying now in that part of the earth”.

Love the link between Jesus and children…………real subtle, real subtle!

“Let your children sing songs about Jesus and the place of his birth,
But not about the children dying now in that part of the earth”.

Love the link between Jesus and children…………real subtle, real subtle!

Oh come on, that first video has to be Ali G, right. Its just a pxxs take?

Anyway, the turnout at Trafalgar Square will be enormous, bolstered by the many tens of thousands of people angered by the genocide and humanitarian disaster in Sri Lanka.

Sri Lanka is a failed state, a nazi state, an ethnic cleansing state and any time soon Max Hastings will tell everyone he just doesn’t like it anymore and Alexie Sayle will tell us its ‘not in his name’ and Ms Lennox will ask us how she explains this all to her kids and……AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHH

Right? That’s all happening isn’t it? The DEC appeal on the BBC and all that. Sri Lankan politicians harangued by BBC journalists like dirty little jewboys (Sarah Montague vs Mark Regev springs to mind)

Right?

FXXK I really hate the hypocrisy and fake humanitarianism of what passes for the ‘left’ in this country. What a bloody shambles.

MattG

Anyway, you guys on this blog are all very clever. Perhaps a post on why the same society that was raging at civilian casualties in January; just couldn’t give a toss about (far more) civilian casualties in May.

Yes, I know the Middle East is more important strategically etc than Sri Lanka; but that ain’t good enough.

I have a theory. It ain’t rocket science. But I dont think we’ll be seeing a play about how Sri Lankans are bred to hate Tamils appearing at The Royal Court, or in The Guardian any time soon. Anyone got a number for Caryl Churchill?

Me

Later the narrator talk about the “illegal and immoral war that Israel has been waging on the Palestinians, and has been waging for almost a hundred years now.”

Wait a minute. Almost a hundred years? Israel didn’t exist until 1948. What could she be referring to?

And Palestinians didn’t exist until 1922 when The Mandate created an area called “Palestine”. The Jews were called “Palestinians” by the British until 1948 Independence.

“the illegal and immoral war that Israel has been waging on the Palestinians, and has been waging for almost a hundred years now.”

Oh dear.

Anyway, that ain’y my favourite bit. I like the bit when the young lady asks how it was that no-one dared criticise Israel during the Gaza conflict. I mean for fxxks sake what planet do these people live on?

MattG: I am expecting calls to boycott Sri Lanka any decade now.
Yeah, wonder what SIR Max Hastings has to say about 400 years of brutal British Oppression and Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland including Britain’s current support of the Illegal Protestant settlements in Northern Ireland.

pop music: Sweet, not only did the Jews killed Christ, they are killing innocent Palestinian babies as well. Nice re-use of the anti-Semitic Blood Libel.

And please note that one of the supporting bodies of this circus is the Green Party, which confirms another of my long held suspicions.

At least this Lowkey guy didn’t ask:

Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers
To stay home that day

When you’re child is dying and near to death

Boycotting Israeli meds and procedures will serve you best

Every byte and every packet on internet communication and virus crackit

Puts another dollar into an Israeli company even if you don’t like it.

Switch off and go live in a cave. You’ll find they are a bargain.

Live as a warped and twisted person like your leader, Osama Bin Laden.

(Its called Crap Rap)

“Almost a hundred years? Israel didn’t exist until 1948.”

She’s probably referring to the beginnings of the Zionist immigration of Jews into Palestine, but, of course, then “Israel” would still be the wrong word.

Why do they accept at face value the notion that there has been a “massacre” in Gaza. The death toll of about 1,000 included mostly militants, and the civilian deaths were there because of the intentional proximity of Hamas guns to homes, schools, and hospitals.

Do these people live on another planet?

‘Stop the War Coalition’, surely they can be done under the trade descriptions act?

Last clip the young woman at from 1.0 min….
“The war on tewrror has made Bri-an er a hated country in the Wowld er…um…we’re like hated third only to like …sort of America and Israwl now and you know like that’s not somewhere….not somewhere where we should be!”

Me thinks she’s projecting – just a tad.

Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers
To stay home that day

Its “Jews” not “Israelis” isn’t it?. Gene, did you frame your telegram? They are surely worth a lot on eBay. (in jest, only in jest!)

Do these people live on another planet?

Its called “Bizarro” (for all you Superman afficionados). Its a planet where all logic is reversed.

And please note that one of the supporting bodies of this circus is the Green Party, which confirms another of my long held suspicions.

Well that’s a fucking surprise.

The Green Party are utter scum.

MattG: I have been asking, in all seriousness, not in a meanwhiling whatabout way for weeks: There have been some expressions of concern at the international level, for the plight of the civilians in Sri Lanka. It has even been called a bloodbath. Deafening silence from STWC. Not one of the usual suspects that i have seen or heard from among the crowds of Tamils in the streets of London over the past month.

And Yet: even among those expressions of concern- there seem only objections against the means the Sri Lankan gvt is using i.e not enough consideration of the civilians in the path of their attack on the LTTE. But- it seems to be taken for granted that the GOAL of the Sri Lankan gvt is quite acceptable, indeed inevitable- to smash and defeat utterly a group which has been fighting for self determination. Why, notwithstanding the LTTE methods, which are just as reprehensible as say Hamas- (suicide bombing, civilian human shields)- is there no recognition at all of the legitimacy of any claim to self determination by them, no call even for them, or both sides, to drop the violence and negotiate. Why does noone, least of all the STWC have anything to say about this?

Instead of obsessing about silly people, can we at least look at the elephant in the room for once – Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians [i]is[/i] shameful and probably illegal. There really cannot be any argument about that.

If that central idea is lost (or deliberately obscured IMHO) by the constant peripheral sniping at people who support the Palestinians, HP is putting itself in the position of a propaganda mouthpiece.

If you read the piece on Miriam Margolyes at the StWC you will wonder if you’ve entered the twilight zone of illiteracy and poor comprehension skills (the link above).

The headlines is “Jewish actress Miriam Margolyes accused of anti-semitism”, yet within the body of the article there is no evidence presented to substantiate that wild headline.

In fact it says “She believes it was because she was appearing in a production of Caryl Churchill’s play Seven Jewish Children, which was organised by the group Australians for Palestine.

The key part is: She believes

Not that it is a fact.

Rather her supposition that the cancellation relates to her appearance in the play.

So there is no evidence of an accusation relating to Miriam Margolyes, just a wild assertion in the headline. The StWC have managed to manufacture the accusation of antisemitism out of thin air. How typical?

Sri Lankan politicians harangued by BBC journalists like dirty little jewboys (Sarah Montague vs Mark Regev springs to mind) (…) FXXK I really hate the hypocrisy and fake humanitarianism of what passes for the ‘left’ in this country.

Sri Lankan politicians are not harangued by BBC journos for exactly the same reason that the yeshiva shooting in Jerusalem was prominently reported by the MSM while the suicide bombing at the Colombo marathon was hardly covered at all.

Some conflicts attract more attention than others and it has nothing to do with antisemitism. Otherwise, the Palestinian suicide bombings would not be reported.

Frankster, there can be lots of argument about that. What you’re doing is begging the question. Perhaps you’d like to tell me what you would like the Israelis to be doing differently. Please say in some detail what you would change.

This wannabe Rachel Corrie with glo’al stops – sorry, delightful young lady – “don’t let the police and government intimidate you” – speaks the truth as she sees it. She and Lowlife – sorry, Lowkey – a wannabe Benjamin “I’m embarrassed when I’m called an intellectual” Zephaniah of Mastermind triumph – should tour the campuses of the land together – black and white united in their opposition to the murderous Israeli warmongers. “I applaud her. And all you young people at the rally.” Tony Benn direct from his mansion in Notting Hill.

Post, no there can be no argument that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is shameful and probably illegal.

I’m happy to discuss what I would like to see changed, but that is not the point I am making. I have no idea what I’d like to see changed in Darfour, for example, but I know that there is shameful and criminal government action happening there.

(Off to work now, reply later)

Instead of obsessing about silly people, can we at least look at the elephant in the room for once – Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians …

I don’t think that is the elephant. The beast in question is rather where Western society is heading some decades down the line, when its young people today seem far more suspectible to irrational, self-destructive ideologies rooted in self-loathing than in a positive and uplifting appreciation of the West and its civilizational values, of which Israel has become symbolic for all sides of the argument. Read the text of Lowkey’s poem, and see that he is trashing as a tissue of lies the very culture and society which has given him scope to develop his individuality and talents in an historically unprecedented way. That’s really depressing.

Yeah and speaking of other planets – we have one to go to maybe?

I am getting nervous already.

I haven’t a clue who this Lowkey person is but reading his ‘poem’, it must surely be possible to indict him for crimes against apostrophes.

“Maybe it’s my old Jewish paranoia acting up again, but the first question that comes to mind is: Free of whom?”

Ooh no, that’s not paranoia. There’s an unfortunate word for free-of-chosen-people on German.

I’d like to think they meant free of Hamas, and therefore able to work out their own ideas of free. Don’t think so, though.

M o r g o t h @ 14 May 2009, 10:14 pm

“The Green Party are utter scum.”

There’s a simpler explanation.

Green = Naive.

“Almost a hundred years? Israel didn’t exist until 1948.”

There’s a very simple explanation for this historical howler. It’s because she is the classic gold combination of reactionary filth and really fucking stupid.

Her little comment about being third hated in the world was interesting. I knew she was going to say second, to America. But she didn’t and it didn’t dawn on me she was going to say Israel till after she said it. Really weird and unnatural triumvirate – unless you are an anti-semitic totalitarian trot, of course. I think it is very unlikely she is using a Pew-standard (or indeed any professional) poll to judge this “fact”. It’s called naked prejudice.

I can’t quite believe the STWC has finally jumped the shark. That’s quite impressive. That wanker Corbyn, though. He really, really needs deselecting. He brings the Labour Party into disrepute every time he opens his mouth. And he has awful taste in tweed lecturer jackets, which is a profound crime. I wonder what his expenses are like? After all, they got Capone for tax evasion rather than being an evil shit in the end.

The STwc have so far had little connection with the Tamil protests. Surprise surprise they are now starting to make overtures to the Tamil community to get involved. What do the SWP hope to gain?
Why is there so little action from the UN to halt the ongoing catastrophe in Sri Lanka? What a surprise China have a substantial investment in various projects including a major seaport and another project involving oil.

the narrator talks about the “illegal and immoral war that Israel has been waging on the Palestinians, and has been waging for almost a hundred years now.”

Wait a minute. Almost a hundred years? Israel didn’t exist until 1948. What could she be referring to? Or is it just another example of the profound historical ignorance of so many anti-Israel activists?

Or maybe her mathematical skills are on a par with her skills in political analysis?

Hahaha! What a shower!

Why is it that I always, and I mean always, agree with every word MattG ever writes? It’s getting quite disconcerting, though it is very handy!

By the way, for some truly grim ‘truthseeker’/anti-Semitic action have a look at some of the reviews on Amazon.co.uk for Aaronovitch’s Voodoo Histories. Let MattG at them I say.

Salty Mouser hits it out of the park.

Why do these people sound like Baader Meinhoff and the Weathermen? Werent those people discredited as completely morally vacuous? Oh, they are friends of the US President now.

Sometimes I get so depressed witnessing the downfall of Western Civilization.

Frankster,

Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians [i]is[/i] shameful and probably illegal. There really cannot be any argument about that.

Why not? Because you decree it? It’s time you reconsidered your prejudices.

Let’s take them in two parts. 1: Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is “probably illegal”? Israel has undoubtedly done illegal things to individual Palestinians on occasion. Name a state that hasn’t done illegal things to individuals. Don’t know where to start? I’ll make it easier: Tell me with a straight face that the Palestinians haven’t treated Israelis illegally. Try not to think of Gilad Shalit, the citizens of Sderot, or the teenagers at the Dolphinarium while you do that. But, as for official Israeli policy toward the Palestinians in general — there is plenty of argument about the rights and wrongs of that, but no definitive legal judgement.

2: Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is shameful? There are, I think, 191 member states of the UN, plus the Palestinians as observers. Of those, roughly 191, plus the Palestinians, treat some of the people and groups of people that come within their reach in a manner that is shameful. Many do as much or more than anything Israel does to the Palestinians. Few can explain it by pointing to endless rejectionism and violent hostility such as Israel faces. On the other hand, the number of countries that are continually hounded, pilloried and ostracised for it approximates to one. If there is an elephant in the room, it is hiding in the disparity between those two numbers.

If that central idea is lost (or deliberately obscured IMHO) by the constant peripheral sniping at people who support the Palestinians,

I am sure that if there wqas a supporter of the Palestinians who pleaded with them to stop suicide attacks, incitement to hatred towards Jews and who were willing to stop making stupid demands for the conditions of a Palestinian State then we would all be behind them. If they urged them to get back to The Roadmap and for Hamas to recognise the permanence of Israel and renounce all terror we would be delighted.

“Palestinian Supporter” most often means “Israel hater” and in many cases “Jew hater”.

“There was no condemnation of the massacre in Gaza”

That’s because there wasn’t one – unless it took place 100 years ago!

“Let’s take them in two parts. 1: Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is “probably illegal”? Israel has undoubtedly done illegal things to individual Palestinians on occasion. Name a state that hasn’t done illegal things to individuals. Don’t know where to start? I’ll make it easier: Tell me with a straight face that the Palestinians haven’t treated Israelis illegally. Try not to think of Gilad Shalit, the citizens of Sderot, or the teenagers at the Dolphinarium while you do that. But, as for official Israeli policy toward the Palestinians in general — there is plenty of argument about the rights and wrongs of that, but no definitive legal judgement.”

Ignoring UN resolutions is a pretty good guage of international illegality. But your response “Look! They do illegal things too!” is pathetic. As I said, if HP is about sensible discussion, not just anonother propaganda mill outlet, can we please stop this knee-jerk “Anyone who criticizes Israel is evul” schtick which has taken over this board.

If HP is a place where it is unnaceptable to criticize Israel, the HP isn’t worth a small dog turd.

2: Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is shameful? There are, I think, 191 member states of the UN, plus the Palestinians as observers. Of those, roughly 191, plus the Palestinians, treat some of the people and groups of people that come within their reach in a manner that is shameful. Many do as much or more than anything Israel does to the Palestinians. Few can explain it by pointing to endless rejectionism and violent hostility such as Israel faces. On the other hand, the number of countries that are continually hounded, pilloried and ostracised for it approximates to one. If there is an elephant in the room, it is hiding in the disparity between those two numbers.

Frankster -does Israel’s ‘illegal’ and ’shameful’ treatment of the Palestinians include being the first country ever to give Arab women the vote? And Palestinian representatives in the parliament, and the right to join a union, and healthcare, and a pension and compulsory education?
You should read this:
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3714608,00.html

oops, lost the comment on your second half:

“2: Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is shameful? There are, I think, 191 member states of the UN, plus the Palestinians as observers. Of those, roughly 191, plus the Palestinians, treat some of the people and groups of people that come within their reach in a manner that is shameful. Many do as much or more than anything Israel does to the Palestinians. Few can explain it by pointing to endless rejectionism and violent hostility such as Israel faces. On the other hand, the number of countries that are continually hounded, pilloried and ostracised for it approximates to one. If there is an elephant in the room, it is hiding in the disparity between those two numbers.”

Oh, rubbish. This is the sort of zealous nonsense that keeps me away from HP these days. You don’t think Burma, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Iran, etc, etc, etc cop international criticism?

If you WANT to live in a bubble, do so. But I would prefer it that you didn’t do it on a board which claims to be about free speech.

Israelinurse, I’m hamstrung because I’m not a one-eyed zealot. Of course ISrael has done good things. But to deny that it has done bad things is just dumb.

Frankster, the Palestinians treatment of Israelis is shameful and illegal. Attacking Israeli civilians, killing children in cold-blood is shameful and barbaric. Its illegal targetting of civilians is – well – illegal.

Their flouting of agreements, truces and ceasefires is one of the worst in all history. Signing agreements and then breaking them very soon afterwards shows them to be a bunch of homicidal liars.

Of course, not every situation on either side is black and white.

I just wonder when the World community will start condemning the Palestinians more.

grand ad – you’re also making the pathetic “they are nasty to us, so you aren’t allowed to say that we are nasty to them, ner ner” argument.

That sort of thing might be OK for boards that cater to bored teenagers of limited intellect, but I had hoped that HP wasn’t in that class.

Frankster, you also don’t seem to acknowledge that some criticism and fakery about Israel’s conduct is motivated by Antisemitism. How does one explain how an air-head from Stop the War thinks that Israel is 100 years old and has been attacking Palestinians all that time. Note how a low-key death toll in Gaza (compared with Israel’s capacity to have levelled Gaza) is called a ‘massacre’ – so redefining the word and stealing it ONLY to mean “someone killed by Israel in any circumstance”.

Israel, and especially the settlers and Lieberman gets a lot of criticism at HP.

Frankster -ah, but that’s not what you originally wrote is it? If you’d phrased it something like ‘whilst Israel has undoubtedly done many good things for the Palestinians, some of its other actions have been shameful and possibly illegal’ then that would have been a more balanced argument which I doubt most people would have objected to.
The major problem with the West, of which the StWC are a prime example, is that they choose to ignore the nuances of the ME situation -everything for them falls into predictable blanket categories of good and bad with no analysis of individual cases or situations and no aknowledgement of the fact that reality is mostly grey, not black and white.
It’s not about being a ‘one-eyed zealot’ -it’s about seeing the situation in a balanced manner, because in case you haven’t noticed it is those people who refuse to see both good and bad who are calling for Israel’s destruction, be that directly or indirectly.

I’ve tried to post comments on numerous newspapers this week about the horrific situation in Sri Lanka. The bombings of hospitals, the use of human shields , the wholesale killings of civilians and why there’s no groundswell of condemnation from Stop the War, newspapers, UN. Why was it that so much less occured in Gaza but the entire world condemned Israel for ‘disproportionality’; the ‘massacres’, the ‘genocide’. Not ONE of these erstwhile rags printed my comments. The hypocrisy of our media organisations is staggering. I also made the point that in Sri Lanka UN buildings were not being used to fire from or launch missiles from. The corollory being that UN buildings are worth far more than Sri Lankans and Tamils. That too was ignored. What’s happening in Sri Lanka is catastrophic but the newspapers hide behind ‘We’re unable to verify these claims because the Sri Lankan government will not allow independent journalists in…’ and the world leaves it at that.

Did anyone else see the notices at bus stops for the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign? I thought it was a flyer but it was an actual TFL leaflet about the disruption, but it looks like it is promoting the march rather than informing people about the disruption. There was one at the stop Gray’s Inn Road, Kings Cross opposite where the old Mole Jazz used to be.

See this Times editorial on Wednesday. I ask again, why does the world think it is OK to annihilate this particular movement for self determination, yet would be outraged if the same attitude applied to Palestinian self determination. Some pundit in a radio interview said the Sri Lankan gvt action revived the (correct in his view) principle that war was about utter defeat rather than compromise.

“There was a global outcry over the Israeli bombardment of Gaza four months ago. Country after country lined up to denounce the “disproportionate” use of force. Where is the outrage over Sri Lanka? Why should there be any less concern over the suffering of the Tamils than over the suffering of the Palestinians? What business have Japan and Vietnam joining China and Russia, two persistently cynical obstacles to effective UN intervention?

Of course, the Tigers are at least as guilty of Hamas of using terror to achieve their ends, of holding civilians hostage and of blocking their escape. Their tactics are ruthless, their exploitation of human shields inhumane and their moral claims worthless. But that does not justify a campaign of annihilation.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6276147.ece

Since you like YouTube clips so much, you should enjoy this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9mkRiGbgZg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stopwar.org.uk%2F&feature=player_embedded

Gerald Kaufmann is particularly good.

“Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism.”

You might be interested in the contents of the e-mail Respect sends out. I think my e-mail address was captured by Galloway’s Talksport e-mail address borrow

Dear friend,

Only a few months after Israel’s brutal assault on Gaza, the media
and government have gone silent. Please join the demonstration on
Saturday, 16th May in London to show our government, our media, and
the people of Gaza that we will never forget.

Please watch this video and know why we are demonstrating on 16th May

**National Demonstration Saturday 16 May

Assemble 12noon, Malet St London WC1E 7HY

March to Trafalgar Square

**Free Palestine ” End the Occupation ” End the Arms Trade ”
Commemorate the 1948 Palestinian Nakba**

Called by Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coalition,
British Muslim Initiative, Palestinian Forum in Britain and CND

Speakers from Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem will be joined
by: Lowkey MC, Mecca 2 Medina, Jeremy Hardy, Jeremy Corbyn MP, Martin
Linton MP, George Galloway MP, Daud Abdullah – Deputy Gen Sec Muslim
Council of Britain, Jean Lambert MEP, Jenny Tonge MEP, Manuel
Hassassian – Palestinian General Delegate to the UK and speakers from
PSC, Stop the War Coalition, British Muslim Initiative, CND,
Palestinian Forum in Britain, Viva Palestina, Jews for Justice for
Palestine, Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights.

Supported by: Action Palestine, Amos Trust, Arab Media Watch, Arab
Womens Association, Association of Palestinian Communities UK,
Britain-Palestine Twinning Network, The Council for Arab-British
Understanding, Campaign Against the Arms Trade, Christian Peacemaker
Teams UK, Fire Brigades Union, Friends of Al-Aqsa, Friends of
Lebanon, Friends of Birzeit University, Friends of Sabeel UK, The
Green Party, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions UK, Jewish
Socialists Group, Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Labour Friends
of Palestine, Liberation, Midlands Palestinian Community Association,
Muslim Association of Britain, Muslim Council for Britain, NUS Black
Students Campaign, Palestinian Forum in Britain, Respect, Pax
Christi, Public and Commercial Services Union, Rail Maritime and
Transport Union, UNISON, UNITE, Viva Palestina, War on Want, Zaytoun
Ltd

Links to their bollocks deleted.

“They are not just war criminals but fools”

Gerald Kaufmann

Grand ad, Gerald Kaufman says Israel is acting like the Nazis in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9mkRiGbgZg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stopwar.org.uk%2F&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&NR=1

I suppose he is an antisemite now too?

another project involving oil

I must say, on a tangent, that oil is one of the most precious resources we have. We (and that’s the world – everyone on the planet needs the fertilizers and drugs derived from it) are entirely dependent on it. I can think of few things more worthwhile than securing and protecting a substance on which our lives depend.

You can imagine how well that opinion went down in my fifth form common room in 1991.

I also think that burning it to make our cars go is a very silly thing to do.

Internationalist: You really don’t have a clue if you think bigging up Gerald Kaufman is a good idea.

Intenationalist, if Gerald Kaufman says that Israel is acting like the Nazis in Gaza then Gerald Kaufman is obviously wrong, isn’t he. Israel isn’t herding people into extermination camps then gassing and burning them. He’s wrong, isn’t he. You’ll come across as far less of a fucking fool if you just say “Yes, actually he’s wrong; Israel isn’t acting like the Nazis. The Nazis were clearly immeasurably worse and I feel silly for pretending otherwise.”

A lot of Jeremy Hardy’s comedy is about embarrassment, so having to be at the same event as Lowkey and pretend to be enjoying himself might be a good source of material.

Sure, you can dismiss my youtube clip.

But I have another one.

And another one after that.

YOU WILL PAY ATTENTION TO ME, I DEMAND IT

Internationalist

Grand ad, Gerald Kaufman says Israel is acting like the Nazis in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9mkRiGbgZg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stopwar.org.uk%2F&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&NR=1

I suppose he is an antisemite now too?

No. he’s not an anti-semite now. He’s been an anti-semite for years.

Although it may look as though I have interest in only nation, Israel, above all others in the world, I assure you that is an illusion. Otherwise my name “Internationalist” would be a lie, and, in a lofty Marxist intellectual such as I, that would be a theoretical impossibility, wouldn’t it?

“Why are British MPs courting cowardly Hamas? ” http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1085831.html

Many Israelis are gripped by fear in the face of Hamas’ Jew-hating rants and maximalist demands; they are roused to defiance by the group’s cross-border provocations and terrorist outrages.

But for a small yet vocal number of British MPs, these things only add to the Palestinian militant organization’s allure. The anti-Semitism is taken as a sign of Hamas’ authenticity as a real Third World group; after all, who else but “noble savages” could be uneducated enough to not know that the Nazis have made the ancient hatred passé? Hamas’ murderous attacks on Israeli civilians and brutal oppression of its own population are likewise winked at as the inevitable behavior of unruly Oriental masses.

“…a lofty Marxist intellectual such as I.”

Inty, aside from being a pompous twat (or was that some kind of irony?), you do realise that Marx was a gushing fountain of nasty, anti-semitic propaganda?

B xx

ps Do you know Linda?

I wouldn’t hang around on a blog where there were mendacious, malicious moderators deleting my comments and leaving up false ones in my name. I’d bugger right off.

I stand corrected. STWC has not ignored Sri Lanka. It is duly noted on their site, under the heading bloodbath in Sri Lanka. This item duly reports that hundreds of Tamils have been protesting on the streets of London. No exhortations to join the Tamils, though. This is followed by another item: Arundhati Roy writes on the horror unfolding.

Notwithstanding her urging:”The world must step in. Now. Before it’s too late” – still no call to action by STWC, not by protesting, not by lobbying “the world” to do something. Still, maybe this call will dominate proceedings on Saturday.

Tsk. I have been put in the mod queue by those em em ems.*

*tm internationalist

Ignore Internationalist. This is the only home he has.

Stop the War/Palestine Solidarity/other assorted anti-Israel mouth-frothers have a very annoying habit of defacing the nice clean walls and the lifts in the building where I lecture. Common to all the leaflets is the “Free Palestine!” logo.

My solution? No, I don’t tear them down, I write in thick red marker “FROM HAMAS!” on each and every one of them.

And I seriously mean it. There’d be at least a ghost of a chance of some sort of non-aggression treaty if Hamas was out of the picture.

Weird. Zionist Terror Gang is the name of my rap collective!

Don’t you think its funny when Middle Class, Public school girls put on working class cockney accents to appear ‘Down with the people’….. while Daddy pays their allowance.
Its Middle Class Marxism..

Frankster,

Ignoring UN General Assembly resolutions does not make you illegal, it makes you normal. Why, even the Arab states do it: Each and every one of them ignored — to pick a random example — the Partition Resolution of November 29th 1947. If that were illegality, the UN’s buildings would be entirely empty and the nearest gaols would be overflowing.

“Oh, rubbish. This is the sort of zealous nonsense that keeps me away from HP these days. You don’t think Burma, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Iran, etc, etc, etc cop international criticism?
If you WANT to live in a bubble, do so. But I would prefer it that you didn’t do it on a board which claims to be about free speech.”

I love your style: Don’t come round here using free speech on this board which claims to be about free speech? Sorry. (And if I’m keeping you away from HP, who’s doing your posting for you?) But as to substance: Have I been missing the mass rallies in London, Paris, San Francisco or Bonn that equate Burma and Sudan with the Nazis? Has there developed an annual tradition among trade unions, demanding boycott, divestment and sanctions against Zimbabwe and Iran (or China, Russia, the US, the UK, Turkey…)? Do tell.

You make the laughable boast that you’re not “a one-eyed zealot”, yet all you’ve done here is demand your right to obsess about Israel and to single it out for condemnation. Sorry again. Don’t tell me to ignore the way Israel is kept perpetually in the dock by people like Stop the War and you. If you want justice and fairness in the world, disproportionate hostility toward Israel is a bad start.

Hang on, is this a pro-war site?

Excellent, I’ll grab my helmet…. then I can be like the rest of you wankers!!!!

Once again the anti-Zionist lobby has come out in force and changed the subject? (no doubt they have an email newtork)
Why are they so scared of a debate about antisemitism that they have to cry “Israel” whenever it is mentioned?
Why do they cynically manipulate all discussion to deflect the truth of antisemitism?
They are evidently well-orgainsed and hold an unhealty amount of power and act contrary to this country’s interests.
Look who they have in their pocket……..Tony Benn, the Pope and numerous academics.
I think we need a government inquiry into this disporortionate amount of power this lobby has.

“I suppose he [Kaufman] is an antisemite now too?” – Internationalist

You don’t know zilch.

Kaufman’s constituency – Gorton – has the highest percentage of Muslims in Manchester. His majority is about 6,000. It is highly unlikely Muslims would vote for him – a Jew – if he hadn’t made a habit of bad-mouthing Israel and all its supporters at every possible opportunity. Other facts about his personal life would also put Muslims off voting for him, but they are more than off set by the propaganda value of his obsessive quasi antisemitism.

Although it may look as though I have interest in only nation, Israel, above all others in the world, I assure you that is an illusion. Otherwise my name “Internationalist” would be a lie, and, in a lofty Marxist intellectual such as I, that would be a theoretical impossibility, wouldn’t it?

I would guess this is a spoof. Which I’ll leave up for now, while asking spoofers not to use the exact same names of those they are spoofing.

This discussion has depressed me.

As indeed has the one we are having on the BBC Board, where one contributor said this “I get anti-Semitic abuse on a regular basis when walking to and from Synagogue. I’ve posted on this in the past. The incidence has increased over the past year. In common with almost all of our Jewish friends we have plans to leave the UK in the not too distant future, as we honestly believe that there isn’t a viable and peaceful future for the Jewish community here”

OK, what can people like me (incidentally not Jewish) do to help? Or do you all really think it’s too late?

“‘Let your children sing songs about Jesus and the place of his birth,
But not about the children dying now in that part of the earth.’

“Love the link between Jesus and children…………real subtle, real subtle!”

Not only that, but remember what one group plays the heavy in both stories.

Ah. I must say I’m embarrassed at the StWC, who I used to be involved with. That piece by Lowkey is, well, crazy. I didn’t know they tolerated 9/11 conspiracy theories.

I honestly think that StWC/SWP activists don’t really know what “from the river to the sea” actually means. I pointed out its negative connotation to SWP activists years ago, and they didn’t get my point. The narrator of the last video, Tansie, is certainly not a raging anti-semite.

And yet, the Israeli government still fails to withdraw illegal settlements from the West Bank, still blockades Gaza, still grabs land using the separation barrier. So while you might not like the StWC, support for the actions of Israel is support for oppression.

Hamas deserve condemnation too, and sadly it seems that Israel helped Hamas in its early days as a counter-balance to the PLO: http://tinyurl.com/pnt6k9. Some day we’ll learn our lesson and not fund militant groups.

“Maybe it’s my old Jewish paranoia acting up again, but the first question that comes to mind is: Free of whom?”

FROM JEWS OF COURSE

And how could they say anything else when there chant is “From the river to the sea” –The best Jews could hope is to be accepted as Dhimmi. If you think otherwise is living in cloud cookoo land

support for the actions of Israel is support for oppression

This is typical of anti-Israel double-standards. Is support of the actions of Palestinians deemed support for oppression? Or Religious fascism? Or mysogyny? Or racism?

Hamas deserve condemnation too

The fact remains that Hamas and their Iranian masters want to wipe out every single Jew from the middle-east. Do the Israelis want to cleanse Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians? With the exception of a few irrelevant cranks, no of course not. They want to live in security and regrettably continuation of the occupation appears the safest option. But Israel is only ever cast as the villain, and Hamas the loveable rogue. As long as the ‘do-gooding’ west continue to perceive the players in that fashion, Israel will rightly ignore world opinion.

I think that there are a lot of ex-StWCer out there*, 10s of 1,000

I imagine they are disappointed with what the StWC became (and was probably always going to head in that direction with the type of leadership that it had) cheerleaders of right-wing militias, panderers to communalism and apologists for violence in the Middle East.

All of those concerns are understandable, but and this is a quizzical but, haven’t ex-StWCers learnt anything in the process?

Surely the whole approach of the existing StWC is flawed ?

It is simplistic demonisation combined with a very crude “anti-imperialist” grasp of political dynamics.

Add to that an outlook almost devoid of rational, consistent analysis and you are left with trite slogans and a cut-down SWP perception of the world, which is not tenable.

So I think ex-StWCers should re-think their thought and ask why did the vulgar StWC fail?

Why does it support nihilistic violence?And shouldn’t we avoid echoing those sentiments now?

There are plenty of lessons to be learn from the StWC’s politcal failure.

—-
*I might even include myself in that group, as I was on several of the StWC demos, thought about joining them, but…. :)

please HP admin, release one of my comment from the moderation queue.

sadly it seems that Israel helped Hamas in its early days as a counter-balance to the PLO

I don’t think “it seems” is warranted, rather I think all the relevant information can better be written as: According to Tony Cordesman and “several current and former U.S. intelligence officials”, Israel helped Hamas in its early days as a counter-balance to the PLO.

But this reading is disputatious and not only because anonymous spooks and Tony Cordesman alone are not exactly decisive sources, but also because nowhere do these sources tell you HOW, WHEN,WHERE and by WHO was this alleged “help” performed. That is, you’re getting the WHY but without even a hint of evidence to support it.

It seems Israel has informers and collaborators in Gaza and the West Bank and will assist them when it is in their interest.

It also seems that the initial ideology of the Palestinian Islamist and pan-Islamist camps, while still as racist and antisemitic as Hamas’ and Islamic Jihad’s ideologies are today, were premised on the notion that armed resistance was not to be available to the Palestinian people, until they relinquished their Arab and pan-Arab Socialist loyalties and proclaimed austere fidelity to Islam- as Islam is defined by the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, the West Bank and Egypt.

Politically, this antisemitic and racist quietism served Hamas quite well for the period before the 1987 intifada because a substantial core of the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank who were not on his payroll nor owed a favour by one of his old guard cronies were not all that interested in following on the heels of the globetrotting Yasser Arafat (who by 1982 was headquartered in Tunis), down the same bloody path once treaded by the Grand Mufti, Amin al-Husseini.

It also seems that the 1987 intifada which was initiated not by Arafat, but by the younger and local armed resistance wings of Fatah, that is until it spun out of their control leading to more Palestinian on Palestinian than IDF on Palestinian deaths, allowed the armed resistance wings in the Arab and pan-Arab camps (eg. Fatah, DFLP, etc.) the opportunity to accuse their Islamist and pan-Islamist opponents in the Palestinian Ikhwan (the Muslim Brotherhood), Islamic and pan Islamic camps, of cowardice, hypocrisy and of dishonour to local martyrs during a jihad, while mocking their “quietist” ideology.

It seems that the street credibility of these taunts influenced the Islamic and pan-Islamic camps and led both to a reappraisal and dismissal of the “quietist” ideology for an ideology of armed resistance, and even more spectacular demonstrations of armed resistance than those provided by their Arab and pan Arab socialist rivals.

Finally, it seems that throughout the Palestinian Islamist and pan-Islamist quietist phase, Israel recognized Islamist and pan-Islamists’ registered charity status, but with the advent of Islamist and pan-Islamist armed resistance wings planning and executing the killing of Israelis during the 1987 intifada, Israeli policy was reappraised and Israel security forces responded by changing tack, now regarding those responsible for killing Israelis as their enemies in as much as they regarded the Arab and pan Arab socialist armed resistance wings responsible for killing Israelis as enemies.

Be my guest and wait for Tony Cordesman to bring forth some evidence to support his 2002 allegation. I’m not holding my breath. And as for taking on faith the word of unnamed American spooks regarding Israeli policy, whatever.

Ex-StWC, I appreciate you’re in good faith but could I question a few of your assumptions:

And yet, the Israeli government still fails to withdraw illegal settlements from the West Bank, still blockades Gaza, still grabs land using the separation barrier. So while you might not like the StWC, support for the actions of Israel is support for oppression.

- re “illegal settlements”, what you really mean is immoral, in your eyes. So far as international law is concerned, on balance, the settlements are legal under the original League of Nations mandate. What status do you give to settlements built under the illegal Jordanian 1948-1967 occupation?

- on whether they’re immoral, it’s not so black and white either. Do you think that because Jews were successfully ethnically cleansed from Hebron in 1929 and Jerusalem in 1948 they should never be permitted to live there again? Most of the settlements should go in a peace agreement – not because they’re illegal, but because it might bring peace.

- on still blockading Gaza, er, shouldn’t it be Egypt you’re protesting to? And if Wales had been fighting a terror war against England for the last 100 years, would you, if you’re English, campaign for keeping the borders open?

- on “still grabs land using the separation barrier”, you obviously understand why it had to be built. Has it grabbed land? Only if you make a lot assumptions about the shape of a final peace. Arguable but probably not. Some of its route is so daft that it would be indefensible in final settlement negotiations.

- and on support for Israel being support for oppression, isn’t that a bit one-sided? Jews have subject to oppression in Israel and the Middle East since the time of Mohammed and the first jihads. Perhaps you’ve heard that the Islamic world was better for Jews throughout history until the Zionists ruined the ethnic harmony? The other side is that just isn’t true. From the murder of the Jewish Quresh tribe in Medina, to the 19th century Damascus blood libel, to the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, to Hamas’ genocidal fantasies, Jews have been subject to murder, terror and oppression in the Islamic world. Don’t Jews also have a right not to be oppressed?

My point, ex-StWC, is that the question is just more complex than something that can be reduced to a simple formula: support for Israel = support for oppression.

Where HP could do some valuable service to the world of dah interweb would be to encourage some debate and throw some light on the complexities of politics inside Israel itself.

It seems such a waste of opinion to just spit at passing Stop the War peeps, Marxists, Hammies, Hizzies and, in the case of Gerald K, experts on the history of the Western Musical Drama.

Most posters seem as aggressively opinionated – it would make a change if they gave some opinion on the hornets’ nest of Israeli politics.

Anything else is just a bit easy, and comes across as just a bit crap.

Anyway, this shite is an insult to the memory of Adrian Mitchell, who was a fairly decent poet, and is dead and cannot defend himself against allegations of support for a second Holocaust and the 9/11 troof industry.

tevya @6:44 – absolutely brilliant!

You even mentioned the illegal annexation by Jordan of Palestine.

What’s the problem with the StWC? Centralised control by the SWP for one. Many of the members have their hearts in the right places, but the lack of democracy and the emphasis on party line and discipline lead them to intolerance, sectarianism and robot-like behaviour. Structures in which dissent is not allowed are always flawed.

Another problem was that they didn’t really know how to organise an ongoing movement after the amazing turn-out on February 15th 2003. Activists and supporters melted away – probably demoralised by Labour invading Iraq regardless of the overwhelming opposition – and the SWP turned instead of building the StWC to the doomed Respect project, which was misguidedly aimed at springboarding on the back of the anti-war protests. The CPGB-PCC gave out a leaflet at Marxism 2003 that suggest that the SWP was going to shut down the Socialist Alliance and found a popular front with Islamic activists; I thought it was nonsense, but chuck in Galloway and that’s what Respect was.

As for Tevya’s response, I’d expect nothing less of the Harry’s Place commenters, but going over the history in a tit-for-tat “they started it” routine does none of us any favours. I can fully acknowledge persecution of Jewish people in Europe and in Muslim countries, and that the Arab states wished to wipe Israel off the map. But the idea that the present-day occupation of the West Bank is acceptable or justified on the back of that doesn’t add up. There has been a progressive expansion of the settlements with the aim of permanently displacing the Palestinian population. The settlement movement is a form of imperialism, as it imposes Jewish-only settlements, taking building land, agricultural land and water resources away from the existing population without their consent. The settlement movement is grounded in the wish of some Israelis to take all the land of Israel/Palestine, and “transfer” out the remaining Palestinian population. It’d be nice to see Harry’s Place acknowledging that a bit more.

I’ll go further than my slightly bland “Hamas deserve condemnation” – Hamas are scum. Any group that relies on violence and the killing of civilians are a disaster for their people, and utterly immoral. I remember SWP activists saying that we should “not condone but not condemn terrorism”, which to me is bullshit. But the blockade imposed by Israel, the US and the EU following Hamas’ election victory only strengthened Hamas, and helped them in their coup against Fatah. They’re bastards, but we’ve got to talk to them. Talking worked in Northern Ireland (and the UK kept the borders open, re: your Wales analogy), it worked in South Africa, it can work here. The only other “solution” is to keep battering Gaza and expanding settlements in the West Bank in a war of attrition until the Palestinian population is slowly but inexorably edged out – and that would be a horrific injustice.

lease, ex-StWC, please try not to use old SWP tricks, do make an effort to engage with other people’s arguments:

We see a lot of jew haters, jew baiters, cranks, etc thick SWPers here, and it gets tiring, if you want a civil (ish) discussion on the Middle East, try to avoid the mischaracterisation of everyone here, there are a surprisingly wide range of views aired at HP

eg. “But the idea that the present-day occupation of the West Bank is acceptable or justified on the back of that doesn’t add up. “

There are FEW, if any authors on HP, who would defend the West Bank or the settlers (see the link at the bottom of the pages).

You might get the odd right-wing loon who thinks they are a good idea, but my impression is that most people disagree with them to varying degrees and would probably welcome a 2 state solution

But and you need to ponder this

People use to use Gaza to bash Israel, Israel left Gaza and they still get bashed for it. They left badly and all in all it could have been done better, but, and I hope you see where this is leading.

A fair few people feel that if and when Israel leave the West Bank then ANOTHER topic will be found to bash Israelis with, see the point?

So I guess what I am saying is, that the Middle East has been discussed on HP for years and years and years, go back to 2006 and see.

and in all of that time, FEW, people who chose to attack Israel ever so did in good faith, maybe you are different, but based on past evidence it means that those of us, like me, who do NOT blame all of the problems of the Middle East on Israelis tend to have a short fuse, as a result

I suspect that’s why people are often a bit defensive and aggressive at time we’ve read so many politically motivated attacks on Israelis, from people such as the SWP, using it for their own purposes, that it gets a bit predictable and annoying.

I hope you can appreciate that, and see where some of us are coming from?

I’d recommend reading:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/10/01/how-the-ucu-reminded-me-that-i-am-a-zionist/

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/sneering-at-sderot-redux/

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/07/pogrom/

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/05/time-to-crack-down/

PS: If you wish to see the varied post on the Middle East etc use the search box in the top right hand corner.

ops, Please

Ex-StWC, I welcome your comments here. On the settlements, I agree that Israel should stop expanding them. But please remember that Israel evacuated its settlements in Gaza just a few years ago. If the response had not been a steady barrage of Qassam rockets from that territory, I’m quite sure Israel would have by now evacuated a large number of settlements in the West Bank too.

In 2000 Israel was prepared to turn over almost the entire West Bank for a Palestinian state, meaning the evacuation of almost all settlements, in exchange for peace. There is nothing inherently “expansionist” about Israel– which, remember, has not expanded but substantially contracted in terms of occupied territory over the years (the Sinai, southern Lebanon, Gaza).

But I can’t help wondering how important the issue of settlements really is to Israel’s opponents. Would a halt to settlement expansion cause a sea change in attitudes toward the country?

Ex-StWC – “the idea that the present-day occupation of the West Bank is acceptable or justified on the back of that doesn’t add up”

… a total strawman, and not what I suggested. My point was that the points that you were making apply at least equally both ways, and that the situation is a bit more complex than saying “support for Israel = support for oppression, so support Hamas – except Hamas are scum”.

I agree that the current situation in Gaza cannot go on, and that Egypt, Hamas, Fatah and Israel should find a way towards at least a peaceful status quo.

I may have said this before but what you believe about the Israel/Palestinian situation depends on how old you are and where in the expansion of history and events you jump in. The air-head in the video is an example. She jumps in maybe 35 years after I did. What can she possibly know except what she’s been brainwashed by her tutors to know.

And how much do WE really feel it when compared to Israelinurse who gives us an on-the-spot analysis.

I’ll tell you what Moses told me – some other time!

grand ad, your reference to the air-head having been brainwashed by her tutor’s goes straight to the heart of it, and that tutors are in a position where they can inflict their political views on their students worries me a lot and is an abuse of their power.

re: the bottom video

I may not agree with what she says, but I support her right to look so damn sexy when she says it.

“Or is it just another example of the profound historical ignorance of so many anti-Israel activists?”

Nope. It’s the ignorance and stupidity of Jew-haters.

“I may not agree with what she says, but I support her right to look so damn sexy when she says it.”

Eva Braun, Leni Riefenstahl and plenty of other Nazis looked very sexy.

Modernity Blog preaches to an SWP idiot:

“There are FEW, if any authors on HP, who would defend the West Bank or the settlers (see the link at the bottom of the pages).
You might get the odd right-wing loon who thinks they are a good idea, but my impression is that most people disagree with them to varying degrees and would probably welcome a 2 state solution”

To people like MB, who is just as dismissive of opposing views as any SWP idiot, those who disagree with him on the historical and legal right of Jews to live in Yesha are “right-wing loons”. That pretty much sums up his “liberal” credentials.

“Ignoring UN resolutions is a pretty good guage of international illegality”

Another total prat who thinks that UN resolutions are “laws”.

“Post, no there can be no argument that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is shameful and probably illegal.”

There is. And it’s not.

Someone,

Just stop, for the moment.

I am not in the mood.