Harry's Place

It’s so funny, you’re all going crazy with worry. Tough. I’m no supporter of the BNP but the main parties have only got themselves to blame. I’m in favour of them getting a few seats here and there. We’ve allowed extremist muslims to become politicians, it’s only democratic that extremist indigenous people should have their turn.

Might even lead to “white police officers association”, “The National White boys Can Association”. “White Association of Women Step out”..

Political correctness makes me sick to my stomach.

The BNP are racist cunts, big shock. However, RESPECT/SWP/StWC are racist cunts too, but they are never called out.

“Tough. I’m no supporter of the BNP but …”

Perish the thought! In no way would anyone think that BNP internet trolls are given stock phrases like that to insinuate themselves into online conversations posing as ordinary members of the public. Fortunately there’s nothing ‘ordinary’ about your extreme prejudice and hatred, as the polls will soon show. The “main parties” are ‘main’ for a reason, you know.

DocMartyn,

You’re a regular commenter here, so your claim that ‘RESPECT/SWP/StWC … are never called out’ is insane if you’re referring to Harry’s Place. If you mean in the wider sphere of the mass media and so on, well, RESPECT isn’t standing in the European elections, the SWP don’t stand in elections, and the StWC don’t stand in elections. Right now, with the European elections looming, of course the focus should be more on the BNP than the SWP.

This party disgusts me, as much for the way they are dishonestly trying to get people to vote for them, as for their hideous racism.

I received one of their election pamphlets this morning, and in the few seconds that it took to walk from the front door to the bin, I glanced at it’s message. A salient feature was that for all its alleged concern for British people, and British workers, there was not one British Black or Asian face depicted.

What with Jews for Jesus types, and the BMP, my bin is getting very full of literature designed to win members through deception.

I’m very glad that sites such as HP, and journalists like Peter Hitchens are exposing the BMP for the bigots they are.

Edmund Standing, I was of course talking about the MSM. Yesterday Galloway had a piece in the Guardian stating that the speaker only lost his job because he was a working class, Scotish Catholic.
Galloway stood in an English constituancy that had the only black, jewish woman in the house and ran a vile racist, anti-Semitic misogynistic campaign. The BBC, The Guardian and Independent let it past.

Excellemnt advice here -
http://grayee.blogspot.com/2009/05/advice-to-queen-on-how-to-greet-herr.html

Edmund Standing,

As you know, a tiger can’t change stripes.

YOSSI UK:

You are right to be worried about ‘jews4jesus’. They are increasingly active in the UK and are targetting young Jews in north London:

http://ajewwithaview.wordpress.com/the-missionary-position-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-messianics/

There are also numerous other Messianic groups fraudulently posing as Jews.

Galloway stood in an English constituancy that had the only black, jewish woman in the house and ran a vile racist, anti-Semitic misogynistic campaign. The BBC, The Guardian and Independent let it past.

Paxman accused him of exactly that, live on the BBC. I’ve still got it on video.

BNP – Bigoted Nationalist Party :). I think it’s pretty obviouse that the BNP are racist, bigoted, nationalist, fascist yadah,yadah,yadah……There’s no ral point in disscusing it further. It is entertaining though. I don’t know what it is about them, but somehow skinheads always make me laugh XD. Stupidity is just so funny. I admit American red necks (with thier accent and all) are the funnies, but British bigots like them not far behind :) (although Galloway is in the lead).lol

PS
Been wanting to ask weather someone here in HP posted or is planning to post an article about the national schism in israel or about other schisms (ethnic, religious, ideological/political or social-economic)or about different schisms that overlap each other, although i would mainly like to see a post about the national schism.

“Hector
Galloway …… ran a vile racist, anti-Semitic misogynistic campaign. The BBC, The Guardian and Independent let it past.

Paxman accused him of exactly that, live on the BBC. I’ve still got it on video.”

If that is the case, I admit that I am to some extent wrong. I left before the election and only follow the UK news on the internet.

Is this the exchange you mean?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/vote_2005/blog/4519553.stm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlE5cTcYZbs

I have not noted Paxman mentioning the anti-Semitic content of his campaign.

Re. Jews For Jesus.

What I don’t get is people who say, or effectively imply, that someone can be an atheist and also a Jew but that someone cannot be a Christian and also a Jew. I suspect anti-Christian bigotry.

What possible justification could there be for that position?

There’s a difference between selling out your ideas, and selling your ideas. And the British National Party isn’t about selling out its ideas … but we are
determined now to sell them. And that means basically to use the saleable words. As I say, freedom, security, identity, democracy. Nobody can criticise
them, nobody can come at you and attack you on those ideas. They are saleable.

Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle we’ve got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps one day
the British people might change their mind and say, “Yes, every last one must go.” Perhaps they will one day, but if you offer that as your sole aim to
start with, you’re gonna get absolutely nowhere. So, instead of talking about racial purity, we talk about identity.

Sounds like something from the moderate Islamist playbook. It was only inevitable that white racists would sooner or later employ the same language to sell their tainted policies. The difference is that there are no apologists calling for respecting the grievances of white racists, and no respectable journalist entertaining the idea that the BNP is moderate, as long as they don’t call for violence.

I agree with Sewing. Promoting another religion to Jews is not antisemitism. If it were, so would punting atheism. People are free agents and their minds and consciences are their own. Complaining about JFJ is the same as those who think that prosthetising to Muslims is an attack on Islam. It’s just the market-place of ideas, people. Deal with it.

I posted this comment on the “French Daniel Pearl” thread, but I think this would be a more relevant thread. If you will allow me.

There was a conference on “Nationalism in Northern Europe” which was held at the University of Wales in 1979. A book was compiled of the proceedings called “The Roots of Nationalism:” edited by Rosalind Mitchison.

In the Introduction Dr A.B. Phillip wrote this:
“The simplicity of nationalist ideas should never be underestimated. It means that they can be easily transmitted and understood by a mass electorate, whether literate or uneducated. Nationalism is thus able to be the great political mobiliser, providing an all-purpose framework into which popular grievances can easily be fitted. Hence part of the appeal of nationalism for youth. At the same time nationalism fulfils a psychological need for the young in search of an identity in a grouping larger than the family which they are out growing. Nor is nationalism an exclusive political ideology. It can change its colour like the chameleon according to the political and social landscape. Liberals were nationalists in the nineteenth century, leninists in the twentieth. Nationalism thus has a remarkable fly-paper quality which guarantees its continuation as a major influence in world affairs.”
Now as free thinking western democracies should we or in the current climate dare we, consider the whole of Islam as a nationalist entity manifested as a shared religious belief? Well there are certainly some elements of togetherness, of oneness, the United Islamic People of the world view but there are also glaring contradictions the most visible being the Sunni, Shia split. Personally I would say no the whole of Islam should not be considered a nationalist entity.
Islamist groups however, should, in my view, certainly be categorized as nationalist entities, movements such as the “Muslim Brotherhood” are not, as far as I can see, any different from the “Aryan Brotherhood”
The Muslim “brothers” and the Aryan “brothers” and in my view the BNP should be treated with equal contempt as far as I am concerned and the religion they claim to follow or the colour of their skin or indeed their geographical location should not, to a true believer in peace for all mankind make the slightest bit of difference.

Sorry with hindsight I should have removed the final two paragraphs, please feel free to edit said paragraphs.

Docmartyn

That is the same jeremy Paxman who recently asked bullishly

‘what exactly is the difference between Zionism and racism’? So your point is still valid.

Apart from the odd feeble attempt here and there to give an illusion of bias the MSM, and the majority of the political and intelectual class give an entirely indulgent free ride to muslim communalist agitators.

Anaximander

yes of course but remember that there are progressive political nationalisms that base their citizenship on equal civil and political rights=the demos

and then there are varieties of ethnic and cultural nationalisms that determine membership of the polity to ethnicity= ethnos.

You are absolutely right that Islamists are theocratic nationalists. For all their talk of a restored Caliphate and Umma, in practice they are extremely content to establish Islamic nationalism whithin a sovereign state, even to create a seperatist nation whithin a state.

It is no surprise that there is in Scotland a coalition between Scottish nationalists ans Scottish Islamic nationalists.

This is a strategic coalition based on; the shared values that social policy and politics should be distributed along ethnic lines above any other criteria, and their shared realisation that their respective nationalisms share an agenda to attack the current sovereign state in order to re-apportion it along ethnic nationalist lines.

We must look at examples of communalist and nationalist political behaviour in democracies where they have gained important power and influence.

They do deals with each other to attack the current state status quo.

In India dalit parties work to get the Muslim vote in an anti-caste Hindu coalition.

In Spain for years Catalonia and Basque country worked in coaliton to weaken the central state followed by Valencia and Gallicia then by every region as they realised that unless they declared an ancient ethno-cultural lineage they were exclude by the new redistribution of political and ethnic power.

later the Basques were more excluded as the rest of Spain realised how nasty ETTA were in their bombing. After thy bombed Barcelona the Catalan lost all sympathy and while their increasing demands for total autonomy continue their nationalism is more tempered but still strongly ethnic.

The BNP are the other ethnic Nationalist Party or rather they are the other fascist one after the Islamists (who like the Muslim vote in India are not a party as much as a free ffloating oppurtunistic force pimpin themselves around the other parties.

In politcal reality the Tories are now the English National Party as well to the right of them are UKIP.

Clearly the Tories strategically realise that increasingly they must look to their right to gain votes otherwise votes they gain from Labour will bleed to the right.

The Tories will pitch themselves duplicitoulsy as a unionist Party but they will act as a soft English nationalist Party.

They will do deals with Islamists to try to take the Muslim vote
which is now a block force that can be traded by Muslim candidates.

I want it all to stop but i am afraid that I am looking to the long term and I think that a short term we are all liberals lets stop the BNP is merely consolidating the communalisation of Britain.

The Tories will take votes from the BNP (they have a problem with UKIP and the BNP on the EU s they share the same views).

But if they win an outright majority they will not stop the ‘multiculturalist’ makeover of their Pary as that too delivers votes now.

So expect no real change on engagement with radical Islam (they started the policy after all).

Sorry Edmund Standing, I really don’t need to be told how vile the BNP are.

I will fight them in the streets but I will not partake in a Tory vote granting excercise, that allows them to continue generating the increasing structural inequality of British society ( I always knew we had a society, the rot started with Thatcher) which will merely be ramped up exponentially by policies of engaging with radical extremism, that merely amounts to a policy of racist ethnic preferrment.

I will be sickened by the appearance of fascists in elected positions.

I am already sickened by the appearance of clerical fascists as unelected political advisors, let in by the side door by the Tories and new Labour and given a far greater influence over the lives of many britons than the BNP will ever acheive.

As I see nothing from the Tories that won’t mean more of the same, but labour seems finally to be waking up to the reality of who they have enobled, enfanchised, enriched and allowed entry into the sanctum sanctorum of british cultural and political life.

Maybe a time in opposition to learn from their mistakes is what new Labour need, I want them back.

But hey Edmund you do it your way and I am not going to criticise you for your consstent denunciation of monstrous filth.

I know they are but here are deeper structural problems that are now the priority as the entire political class is discredited, we have to rebuild a politics that placesthe needs of all its citizens at the heart of their elected representatives political concerns.

Yes this does include the needs and concerns of those who will vote fo the BNP.

If our intelligentsia and our political class can spend so much time examinig the causes of the rise of violent extremism, I think they should spend more than their lunch breaks examining the cause of the rise of the BNP, without having racist by association denunciations from a liberal media that seems quite happy to promote the total destruction of the state of Israel.

These things are connected you know its time to join up the dots.

But the best of luck with your right wing approach, it might even work.

I married a Jew and have Jewish Children. Six or seven years ago I explained to my father that I did security detail at Religious School, one Sunday in four.
He was outraged that children would need to be defended in their religious classes; by then I had got used to it and didn’t fell the outrage.
It played a big part in my decision to emigrate. I think things will get much worse before they get better.

Some pictures of my daughter Hazel, wife and son at the dress rehearsal of her Bat Mitzvah last Friday.

http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w318/DocMartyn/Hazels%20Bat%20Mitzvah/

http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w318/DocMartyn/Hazels%20Bat%20Mitzvah/Selected%20Bat%20Mitzvah/

Paxman accused him of exactly that, live on the BBC. I’ve still got it on video

The nutjobs on HP were claiming a couple of weeks ago that Paxman was anti-semitic. Now it appears that he’s the touchstone of anti-anti-semitism. But why should I be surprised? HP makes CIF seem sane by comparson.

You know, sometimes I feel like I’m being ignored…..

“What I don’t get is people who say, or effectively imply, that someone can be an atheist and also a Jew but that someone cannot be a Christian and also a Jew. I suspect anti-Christian bigotry.”

I think there has been some confusion.

A Jew is always a Jew. Any person born to a Jewish mother or who converts to Orthodox Judaism is a Jew, and remains a Jew forever.

A Jew who rejects belief in G-d, or who adopts another religion, remains a Jew, as the obligations laid down by G-d still apply to them, whether they agree or not, and will always do so. The person would be considered a sinner, but he or she would still be a Jew.

Jews who join Jews for Jesus are still Jews.

My point is that Christianity is not Judaism. And the underhand method that some Christian groups like Jews for Jesus. use to convert Jews are wrong. Pretending that Christianity and Judaism are the same, calling your Church a “Shul” or “Synagogue”, disguising Christian theology by masking it with Hebrew/Yiddish words and Jewish ritual, refraining from revealing the Christological theology, in order to trick Jews into joining is simply disgraceful.

A Jew who joins Jews4Jesus is still a Jew, but he is no longer practising Judaism, all mainstream Christians would agree to this. Jews4Jesus also know this, but hide it to “save” Jewish souls.

Despite this, yes we do live in a free country and we have to “deal with it”. And we do, but we can still be annoyed, or is that no longer allowed?

I have no problems with Christianity, and I have no problem with Christians sharing their faith with me or others. I don’t believe in Christianity but I have no problem with those that do.

I have had Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons approach me, and I have had friends who have attempted to convince me of the truth of Christianity. I have not minded this at all, and have no problem with this at all. These people have never used deception to trick me, and they have always, always respected my rejection of their overtures and my insistence that my faith is Judaism and always will be.

The reason I referred to Jews for Jesus, was because like the BMP, they present a false, “sanitised” image and message to convince those who are unaware of the true nature of what they believe.

If a Jew with full knowledge of what Christianity or any other religion is, converts to that religion, I am of course saddened.

But I am greatly annoyed when young Jews, mostly ignorant of their heritage, are tricked into joining Christian cults like Jews4Jesus.

“every last one must go”

Meaning my closest friend, who is the brother I never had?

“every last one must go”

Meaning my flat-mate?

“every last one must go”

Meaning 3 of my work colleagues?

“every last one must go”

Meaning over half of my religious congregation?

“every last one must go”

Meaning 40% of the friends I have with numbers stored in my mobile.

If it all the same to you, Mr Griffin, I think it is you that should go.

Doc M. -mazal tov! What lovely pictures.

“My point is that Christianity is not Judaism. And the underhand method that some Christian groups like Jews for Jesus. use to convert Jews are wrong. Pretending that Christianity and Judaism are the same, calling your Church a “Shul” or “Synagogue”, disguising Christian theology by masking it with Hebrew/Yiddish words and Jewish ritual, refraining from revealing the Christological theology, in order to trick Jews into joining is simply disgraceful.”

It is not disgraceful. Any Jew who allows him or herself to be ‘theologically’ tricked is an idiot who doesn’t know his or her own mind. People believe what they believe. If someone buys into the JFJ theology, then that is what they believe. Full stop. No one points a gun at their head.

It’s all nonsense anyway.

“Any Jew who allows him or herself to be ‘theologically’ tricked is an idiot who doesn’t know his or her own mind.”

No my friend, they know their own mind, but they don’t know the facts.

Sadly many young and even older Jews are very ignorant of Judaism. But some of these individuals are searching for a greater connection to their faith, and then come along Christians masquerading as Jews and persuade the unfortunate Jew that the Christianity they offer is actually Judaism. This is deceitful.

The people who vote for the BMP know their own mind, but they might not know the fact, that the BMP are the same racist thugs they always were. They may believe that the new “presentation”, is the real deal.

It is true that they could if they looked hard enough discover the truth about the BMP, and Jews could if they look hard enough discover the truth about Jews 4 Jesus, but this does not justify the deceit and lies of the BMP or Jews 4 Jesus.

The ignorance/stupidity of the unfortunate does not justify the wrongdoing of the liar.

After all, is that not why we have trade description laws? To prevent people from making false claims about their wares? Why not, as you seem to think, just say ” it’s their problem, no one is putting a gun to their heads”

“It’s all nonsense anyway.”

I respect that this is your view, but for those of us who think otherwise, this is an important matter.

reason I referred to Jews for Jesus, was because like the BMP, they present a false, “sanitised” image and message to convince those who are unaware of the true nature of what they believe.

But Yossi, an individual who describes him(her)self as a Jew-for-Jesus can hardly be accused of hiding the Christian aspects of their ‘mission’.

I know little about them, but I am aware they’re very staunch supporters of Israel.

In fact, much more so than many secular Jews

The nutjobs on HP were claiming a couple of weeks ago that Paxman was anti-semitic. Now it appears that he’s the touchstone of anti-anti-semitism. But why should I be surprised? HP makes CIF seem sane by comparson.

So two opposing comments by two different posters on two different threads now demonstrate that HP is insane? Stop projecting. If you want an echo chamber, I suggest Lenin’s Tomb would be more to you’re liking

HP makes CIF seem sane by comparson.

I think that CiF makes HP seem sane by comparison. So now you get to post a comment that says: “The nutjobs on HP were claiming a few hours ago that ago that HP makes CiF seem sane by comparison. Now it appears that CiF makes HP seem sane by comparison. But why should I be surprised?”

The answer is you shouldn’t be surprised. I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed this, but not everyone here thinks the same thing about everything.

“The ignorance/stupidity of the unfortunate does not justify the wrongdoing of the liar.”

One religious cult calling another religious cult “liars” is actually quite amusing. It’s only a lie in so far as it is not your ‘truth’.

Sorry, but I need to correct YOSSI, and also SEWING and BRETT.

Firstly, historically a Jew who converted to any other faith was NOT still regarded as Jewish and in fact had to CONVERT back to Judaism if they wished to return to the faith. YOSSI, if you would like the rulings on this by Maimonides et al, let me know, I can post them. It is also made clear in the Tanakh that NO JEW can remain Jewish AND follow any other faith.

Now, to clarify for SEWING and BRETT:

You are asking why a person can be Jewish and Atheist, but not Jewish and Christian:

A person born into the Jewish family *remains* Jewish UNLESS they adopt any other faith.

If they are an Atheist, they are not adopting ANOTHER FAITH, nor are they worshipping ‘false gods’.

They are simply choosing to be a non practising Jew.

A Jew who becomes a Christian = A CHRISTIAN

Core Christian ideology violates Torah and violates Judaism.

The two faiths are mutually exclusive. A person cannot, for example, simultaneously believe that the maschiach has not yet arrived (Jewish) and ALSO that he has arrived, died, been resurrected, and will return (Christian).

Also, what you are failing to appreciate is that ONLY JUDAISM gets to define JEWISH identity.

And Judaism does not permit DUAL religious affiliation.

Could a person be both Christian AND Muslim?

Answer: no

Now apply that same logic to Judaism.

Also, regarding Messianics: it’s not a case of Jews being ’stupid’. Messianics target YOUNG, NAIVE Jews, who are not religious.

Messianics also practise THE MOST appalling deceit. For instance: right now, on AMAZON, they are selling something called ‘The Complete Jewish Bible’.

But it is *not* remotely Jewish. It is a purely Messianic (Christian) publication. Nothing to do with Judaism.

This is just one such example, I have many more and trust me: you can’t blame the Jews who are hoodwinked by Messianics. Blame the Messianics who are DOING the hoodwinking!

***please note: Messianics do not represent all or even most Christians and I would like to make that crystal clear. Many, many Christian movements have publicly condemned the Messianics.

There is more about this here:http://ajewwithaview.wordpress.com/messianics-2-countering-the-lies/

Messianics are now starting to target Muslims, by the way…

BRETT: So you condone a purely CHRISTIAN EVANGELICAL group, posing as ‘jews’ purely in order to CONVERT Jews TO Christianity…?

Your moral compass needs adjusting.

Nobody is saying that Christians should not attempt to ‘witness’ to those of other faiths.

We ARE saying that they must do do AS Christians, rather than posing as ‘messianic jews’ when most Messianics are ***literally*** not Jews and never were.

If a Hindu claimed to be a Christian, would that be an utter lie?

Answer: yes.

And when a Messianic Christian claims to be a Jew, THAT is equally a LIE.

So YOU deal with THAT.

So being a Jew is an entirely religious thing now?

AMUSED:

Being Jewish means being part of the Jewish family, the Jewish people and the Jewish religion.

And just as Christianity alone gets to define Christian identity, equally Judaism and only Judaism gets to define Jewish identity.

And a Jew who converts to ***any*** other faith is an Apostate, an ex Jew – though of course nothing changes the fact that they were born to a Jewish mother and have a Jewish heritage, should they choose to claim it.

To put it very clearly:

Just as no Christian could deny that Jesus existed, and still claim to BE a Christian – so too, no Jew can worship Jesus as ‘god’ etc, and still claim to BE Jewish.

Tabatha,

You are right, and I did not explain myself clearly.

What I meant to say is that a Jew who converts to another Religion, is still bound by Halacha to observe Torah.

Just because he is a Christian etc, does not mean his obligation to keep Shabbos has been removed, or his obligation to keep Kosher etc.

While he is a Christian, he is a sinner.

But yes it is true that Maimonides does hold that such an individual needs to convert back to Judaism.

To all Jews on HP have a peaceful and happy Shabbos.

To all Non-Jews on HP, have a lovely, healthy weekend.

I should also clarify: most Messianics are not in fact former Jews who have become Christians. The vast majority of Messianics were never Jews to start with – thus making their claim to be ‘jews’ all the more deceitful.

Many Christian leaders and movements have condemned Messianics for precisely these lies.

YOSSI – I take your point. Shabbat Shalom :)

This will be my last post here but I do want to make the record that I have never been abusive to other commenters, nor have I ever posted anything except substantive replies to the position taken by HP regulars. My advice is to remove the business about liberty being able to tell people what they don’t want to hear since you obviously don’t believe it.

Bye-bye

Penny Pemberton:

You think you are correct, you think you have all the answers, you cannot believe other people cannot see what, to you, is so obvious, it makes you want to scream, “It’s all so clear why can’t these people understand it” is how you see the world is it not.

Consider this, if only for a couple of minutes, this is not going to be an insult, so just give it a moment, why? Do you think that a not insignificant portion of “Marxists”, of “Far Leftists” or indeed just the “Left” change their views as they get older? Not many go from “Right to Left” do they? the overwhelming majority go from “Left to Right” strange don’t you think? Now yourself and your comrades think that it must be betrayal or senility or that the traitors were obviously not true Marxists to start with, yes?

Why do, lets say, most ten year olds, know how to send a text or a email compared say, to most two year olds? Why do you think children are not permitted to own guns or knives for instance? Why, do you think, does a twenty year old know not to walk across the thin ice of a frozen pond? Why do so, so many young people get into taking very harmful drugs, surely they must know it is illogical and dangerous? Why do you think that trainee pilots are not flying passengers from London to New York after their first week in the simulator or why do you think that medical students for instance are not allowed to operate on patients brains after a fortnight in the anatomy lectures?

There is a reason why people change when they get older, it even has a name, it’s called experience. This “revelation” will, I don’t doubt, send you into a fit, maybe of laughter? Assuming you ever read this comment that is, because I suspect you are probably not that young.
The reality of life can be a great catalyst for all sorts of wonderful and innovative Ideas, artistic, scientific, social, just plain practical and dare I say it Political.

But beware, it can also trick the unwary into thinking that only one particular “path” will lead to the promised land. Some Humans have seen these “paths” travelled before and as hard as it may seem for you to understand, some people, whom you may think are blind, know exactly where these “paths” lead.

Tabetha,
When you say Jewish do you mean just the religion or do you also mean of the Jewish people? I know of a comunity of Christian Jews living in Israel, in the north I think, and there was even a report on them in the news once about a Christian Jewish family who was attacked by thier “Jewish-Jewish” neiboughrs. While religiously they aren’t regarded as Jews, they are still part of the Jewish people.

ps
I STILL feel like I’m being ignored :(

I am not ignoring you Isy, I suspect, no one else is either. These virtual debating chambers are just that, virtual. They also have lots of “rooms” you can visit in a single day. No one ever “talks” to me but then that’s not why I am here, this place has become my pressure relief valve, a place where I can let of some virtual steam. I can also play at being a virtual politician, a virtual diplomat, a virtual general or a virtual Philosopher.

There are also lots of very descent people here, who present their arguments in a very cogent and logical way. I personally have gone from a position of anger and at times ignorance, to a place of better understanding. I like it here because on the whole, almost all of the posters and the majority of people who submit comments are just concerned people who care about what is going on the world. Most of them, I believe, are people I would probably get along with in the real world.

They are not ignoring you, they just have a virtual form of peer group togetherness, the longer you stay, the more they say. However if you are not careful you can become addicted.

Mettaculture 22 May 2009, 1:09 am

Cogent comment, I will save it and when the need arises reference it. Thankyou.

ISY- no, they are NOT ‘part of the jewish people’.

There is no such thing as a ‘christian jew’.

Are there ‘muslim christians’?

Are there ‘protestant hindus’?

Answer: no

There are NO ‘christian jews’.

I could wake up tomorrow and declare myself a Native American Indian; does that mean I AM one?

Answer: NO

A Christian is a CHRISTIAN.

No Christian group gets to REdefine JEWISH identity.

A person is Jewish IF their mother is Jewish OR they convert to Judaism. That is it. There is no other way of being ‘part of the jewish people’.

Any Christian who claims to be ‘jewish’ is LYING. It is as simple, and as straightforward as that.

Let me put it another way: if a person is not Jewish according to the criteria OF Judaism – how are they ‘jewish’?

Answer: they are not.

maybe I wasn’t clear. Maybe I’ve been staying up late too much. Maybe I just have a wierd sence of humor. That was supposed to be a joke, reffering to my first post in which I asked a question which wasn’t answered yet.
Oy Vey!
I’m going to bed, right after I read “Humor for the Hopeless” ;)

but there is also no such thing as a “christian people” or a “muslim people”. For example, you can be a Jewish Arab. While it is true that religion is an integral part of Jewish nationalism, it’s not a prerogative. You said it yourself, a person with a Jewish mother is defined as Jewish, so if he converts to Christianity he’s still Jewish (nationaly)

ISY – sorry but you have been MISinformed.

To be Jewish is not a ‘nationality’.

I am a British Jew. My nationality is British. My faith is Judaism.

When a Jew converts to any other faith, he becomes an EX Jew and an Apostate.

It was Hitler who tried to convince the world that a person with ‘jewish blood’ remained Jewish EVEN after changing faiths. But it was a lie then and it is a lie now.

A Jew that becomes a Christian = a Christian

Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism = a Jew

Jews and Arabs are both Semites. There are Israeli Arabs, and there are Mizrachi Jews – Jews whose families come from Arab nations.

Hilarious. It’s like Star Trek fans arguing about whether Klingons can mate with Vulccans.

(BTW, Klingons CANNOT mate with Vulcans although they are able to have offspring, but the children will be KLINGONS bound by the traditions of Kn’Akh!!!1!)

why? Do you think that a not insignificant portion of “Marxists”, of “Far Leftists” or indeed just the “Left” change their views as they get older?

I suspect it’s the slow encroachment of reality facilitated by settling down brain chemistry.

Tabatha
22 May 2009, 10:06 pm

ISY – sorry but you have been MISinformed.

To be Jewish is not a ‘nationality’.

I am a British Jew. My nationality is British. My faith is Judaism.

When a Jew converts to any other faith, he becomes an EX Jew and an Apostate.

It was Hitler who tried to convince the world that a person with ‘jewish blood’ remained Jewish EVEN after changing faiths. But it was a lie then and it is a lie now.

A Jew that becomes a Christian = a Christian

Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism = a Jew

Jews and Arabs are both Semites. There are Israeli Arabs, and there are Mizrachi Jews – Jews whose families come from Arab nations.

Sorry, you’ve been missinformed. You really ought to learn a bit about Zionism and the establishment of the state of Israel.

ISY -

Thanks, but I know about zionism and as I’ve lived in Israel, I know about the state of Israel too.

You appear to be smarting somewhat because of my comments.

You stated inaccurate ‘facts’ about Jewish identity.
I corrected you.

Deal with it.

If you want to make a specific point about something, make it.

I don’t know what exactly you do mean about “smarting”. I do know however that that Jewdaism is both a religion and a nationality, while that means an internal conflict in diasporan Jews it’s still true. If you define yourself as only Jewish by religion and not by nationality, that’s fine by me but saying that there is no such thing as a Jewish nationality is denying the exsitance of Zionism. Religion and nationality are intertwined with eachother, hence the whole “chosen people” in Jewdaism.

“that’s fine by me but saying that there is no such thing as a Jewish nationality is denying the exsitance of Zionism”

Well without wishing to debate Zionism, it might be relevant to point out that the overwhelming number of traditional Jews were opposed to the redefinition of Jewishness that Zionism created.

And some of us, still are opposed to Zionism, and do not see it as a genuine expression of Jewish national identity.

The Jewish people are a nation, but a nation that is defined by and because of its religious faith.

What Tabatha is saying is that as long as a Jew does not adopt another religion he remains part of the Jewish family.

It occurs to me I have been writing for some unknown reason BMP instead of BNP, sorry about that.

ISY

Allow me to enlighten you:

1 – it is spelled JUDAISM

2 – zionism = support for the right of Israel to EXIST

ISRAELI = nationality

There are Israelis of all faiths

JUDAISM = religion

Now, you can of course refuse to accept this factual definition. But that would be irrational on your part.

Nobody is ‘jewish’ by ‘nationality’.

There is no country named ‘jewish’ or ‘judaism’.

Is ‘catholic’ a nationality?

After all, Italy is a Catholic country….

Clearly the answer is NO.

Now apply the same logic to JUDAISM and Israel.

YossiUK
23 May 2009, 10:43 pm

What Tabatha is saying is that as long as a Jew does not adopt another religion he remains part of the Jewish family.

THAT actually makes more sence (I still disagree with your oppinion
but they now seem more logical to me)

It occurs to me I have been writing for some unknown reason BMP instead of BNP, sorry about that.
I thought it was on perpous as if you’re making fun of the BNP by calling it the British Moronic Party or some other initials.

“I thought it was on perpous as if you’re making fun of the BNP by calling it the British Moronic Party or some other initials.”

Ah.. I should have thought of that :-)

ISY

Sorry, but you don’t GET to ‘disagree’ with objective FACT.

You are entitled to your own opinions.
You are not entitled to your own facts.

YOSSI has stated facts, as have I. You may not like them – but you don’t get to ‘disagree’.

> Do you think that a not insignificant portion of “Marxists”, of “Far Leftists” or indeed just the “Left” change their views as they get older?

I’d dispute “or indeed just the Left”. Moderate / mainstream leftists are much less likely to move to the right than far-leftists, and when they do it generally follows a move into a higher income bracket. They haven’t sincerely changed their position, they’re just rationalising their self-interest.

Far-leftists who move right, meanwhile, rarely pass through the centre, they generally flip straight over to the diametric opposite of their previous views: a lot of anarcho-capitalists are ex-Marxists. I don’t find it particularly surprising that those who have demonstrated a propensity for irrational extremism sometimes move from one kind of irrational extremism to another.

So Hitler created the Jewish race? Has anyone told David Irving?

AMUSED:

I’m going to assume you’re being facetious, and that you know there is no ‘jewish race’.

I’ll clarify anyway, in case there are people reading this who are unclear on what Jews ‘are’:

Jews are a family, a faith and a people.

We are not and have never been a ‘race’. You cannot change your race but you can of course change your religion.

Nor are we an ‘ethnicity’. There are Jews of *all* ethnicities.

It’s actually depressing, the sheer number of people who still cheerfully assert that ‘jews are a race’.

(AMUSED – I’m not including you in that group :) )

Some people are a pain in the ass and generally they are bleeding hearts, do gooders, liberals and politically correct and impress as being as much in error as were the early judeo christians who brought down civilisation.
Differently the Sri Lankans, Israelis, Russians and Chinese have got it right and more strength to their elbow.