Harry's Place

Will the Army & Navy Career Centre in Little Rock likewise be closed as a mark of respect for the victims of Carlos Bledsoe a.k.a. Abdul Hakim Mujahid Muhammad?

If I didn’t read blogs, I’d have to say ‘Who?’ to that…

Do tell us about the fact that he was one of only three abortionists in the entire US who would perform such late term abortions, And why the thousands of others wouldnt.

Go on Gene give us the full story for once.

I guess the thousands of others won’t because if they do they are at risk of being murdered by Christofascist terrorists.

I guess the thousands of others won’t because if they do they are at risk of being murdered by Christofascist terrorists.

Could you name me one mainstream Christian denomination that supports murder?

Many, many Christian leaders have denounced this murder in clear and unequivocal terms.

Hector

You guess wrong

Could you name me one mainstream Christian denomination that supports murder?

A bit rich coming from the follower of a church which has killed hundreds of millions over the millenia and which wiped out the civilisations of half the planet in the process of doing so.

*rolls eyes*

Can we please dispense with the canard that it is only the religious that find what this man did utterly repugnant?

I don’t have a religious bone in my body, but (absent catastrophic, life-limiting, horrendous birth defects) the ’service’ this man offered is wrong on all levels.

I don’t have a religious bone in my body, but (absent catastrophic, life-limiting, horrendous birth defects)

Really, Julia, who do you think Tiller’s patient were– women who engaged in casual sex and then decided at the last moment that having a baby would inconvenience their lifestyles?

Hardly.

Susan Hill, the president of the National Women’s Health Foundation, explains that women in Tiller’s care were there mostly because life had dealt them a crippling blow.

“We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller,” said Hill, who knew the doctor for 20 years. This included women who were newly diagnosed with cancer and who could not start chemotherapy unless they terminated their pregnancies; women whose babies would be born only to suffer from genetic illness and die; women – no girls – who were victims of rape or incest and who were so young that they didn’t know enough to know they were pregnant until they were many months along.

Read some of the other stories.

Gene, if you think that Scott Roeder is as dangerous to American lives as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed why not state your case here? You have posting privileges.

You’ve already shown yourself to be a partisan hack with no post about the Islamic terrorism victim Private William Long, killed here on American soil (Private Quinton I. Ezeagwula was wounded, but is expected to recover).

No post on the fact that the Abdulhakim Muhammad was on an FBI watch list…

No observation on the failure of the Big O to speak out on the murder of a soldier under his command…

No connect the dots between Nuradin Abdi (convicted in 2007 of planning to blow up an Ohio shopping mall), Iyman Faris (convicted in 2003 of planning to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, Christopher Paul (convicted in 2008 of conspiring to use explosives against targets in the U.S. and Europe) and the Columbus, Ohio mosque also frequented by Abdulhakim Muhammad…

No word on the other targets the jihadist was scoping out: officers found maps to Jewish organizations, a child care center, a Baptist church, a post office and military recruiting centers in the southeastern U.S. and New York and Philadelphia…

Jeez. One might infer you don’t like acknowledging Islamic terrorism or something.

I don’t have a religious bone in my body, but (absent catastrophic, life-limiting, horrendous birth defects) the ’service’ this man offered is wrong on all levels.

What business is it of yours what a woman does with her body?

Jeez. One might infer you don’t like acknowledging Islamic terrorism or something.

It is most for important for Gene’s world view with its thirst for ‘balance’ that he’s found a “christofascist”!

Rejoice! Rejoice! There really is a god afterall!

“This included….””

But was not limited to…

“What business is it of yours what a woman does with her body?”

If it was just her body, there wouldnt be a problem, would there?

“Jeez. One might infer you don’t like acknowledging Islamic terrorism or something.”

Actually, ‘Harry’s Place’ is usually a lot better than most left-oriented sites. Not sure why the blind spot on the killer of Private William Long…

What business is it of yours what a woman does with her body?

Morgoth how do you resolve the cunumdrum created by advances in reproductive medecine wherein some aborted babies are closer to term than others born prematurly?

No doctor would do a late abortion unless there were really very terrible reasons for having to do so. I do not know what the percentage of late term abortions in the US is but I guess it is extremely low. In the UK if you do not get to the Doctors within 10 weeks of conception you will NOT get an abortion and will have to pay privately, a 15 or even an 18 year old is going to struggle to pay for this. The tragedy is that often by week 8 there are so many obstacles in the way that a referring worker really needs to work very intensely to get the termination agreed by week 10. JuliaM I guess that life is very peachy for you, do not assume it is so clear cut for all others. Have some compassion for those who really do have to make a very difficult decision.

A bit rich coming from the follower of a church which has killed hundreds of millions over the millenia and which wiped out the civilisations of half the planet in the process of doing so.

So answer my question. Name one mainstream Christian denomination that has refused to condemn unreservedly this appalling murder?

ALL pro-life campaigners know that acts like this are very counterproductive, not to mention immoral.

Morgoth how do you resolve the cunumdrum created by advances in reproductive medecine wherein some aborted babies are closer to term than others born prematurly?

It is none of your or my business what a woman does with her body. That’s the simple answer.

Adriane, you’re right. I should have posted on the murder at the Little Rock army recruiting center. I hope you agree with me that it and the Tiller murder were equally abhorrent.

Obama described Army Pvts. William Andrew Long and Quinton I. Ezeagwula as “two brave young soldiers who were doing their part to strengthen our armed forces and keep our country safe.”

“JuliaM…Have some compassion for those who really do have to make a very difficult decision.”

As I stated above, absent catastrophic, life-limiting, horrendous birth defects, there should be no reason for the acts carried out by this ‘doctor’.

To have compassion for the women in these cases that fall outside that is to ignore what the procedures actually entail. I know where my compassion lies…

So answer my question. Name one mainstream Christian denomination that has refused to condemn unreservedly this appalling murder?

Stop trying to change the subject. You originally claimed that “Could you name me one mainstream Christian denomination that supports murder?”

You and your church have been murdering for thousands of years all in the name of your despicable sky fairy imaginary friend.

and there has been NO unequivocal condemnation of Tiller’s murder from any theist.

“I hope you agree with me that it and the Tiller murder were equally abhorrent. “

They aren’t the same, though, are they?

JuliaM, do you have any evidence that Tiller performed late-term abortions outside of these extraordinary circumstances?

It is none of your or my business what a woman does with her body. That’s the simple answer.

That kind of absolutism doesn’t make sense.

Some enfants as young as 25 weeks can survive whereas others are aborted at 28 or even 30 weeks.

Can a foetus capable of surviving outside the mother’s body still be considered part of HER body.

At some point a foetus ceases to be a part of the vehicle (the women’s body) and becomes instead a passenger in that vehicle.

JuliaM, do you have any evidence that Tiller performed late-term abortions outside of these extraordinary circumstances?

Of course she doesn’t, this is just another smear on a brave man allowing women control of their own bodies.

JuliaM

So you believe this poor girl should not have had an abortion?

Vatican backs abortion row bishop

The girl, who lives in the north-eastern state of Pernambuco, was allegedly sexually assaulted over a number of years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six. The fact that she was four months pregnant with twins was only discovered after she was taken to hospital in Pernambuco complaining of stomach pains.

That kind of absolutism doesn’t make sense.

Get your rosaries off their ovaries. Which part of “It is none of your business” do you understand?

“JuliaM, do you have any evidence that Tiller performed late-term abortions outside of these extraordinary circumstances?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/opinion/09douthat.html?ref=opinion

“This evidence is persuasive, but not dispositive. We may never know how many of George Tiller’s abortions were performed on healthy mothers and healthy fetuses.”

“JuliaM

So you believe this poor girl should not have had an abortion?”

Was there evidence that the babies she carried had ‘catastrophic, life-limiting, horrendous birth defects’?

If not, then no.

“It is none of your or my business what a woman does with her body. That’s the simple answer.”

Well, simplistic, yes. It’s very often your and my business what a woman does with her body. If she uses her body to steal a car, it’s your and my business. If she uses her body to stab a nursery-school child to death, it’s your and my business. If she swallowed vital evidence to a crime, we would be expected to be allowed to scan her or to examine her effluent.

But you’ve decided arbitrarily that *this* moral act affecting another individual is somehow none of your and my business. Even though it results in the purposeful killing of another individual who, if he or she had not been within a particular location (the mother’s body), it would be unambiguous murder. Indeed, late abortion doctors have to be careful to ensure that the child is killed within to avoid this.

Now, this is not to say that I’m anti abortion: there are good utilitarian arguments for early term and even mid term abortions. But if you accept late term abortions as general procedures, you should also have no problem with exposing a born child on a hill. If you do, then you are hopelessly confused. And simplistic slogans from the extreme wings of “pro life” or “pro choice” are equally idiotic.

Get your rosaries off their ovaries. Which part of “It is none of your business” do you understand?

Morgoth, you still haven’t explained how you would resolve the ethical probleme of saving a 25 week old foetus and killing one at 30 weeks.

And until you do your comments remain mere slogans, words that even a machine could generate.

Gene asked you for evidence, Julia, not opinion-piece smears.

What ethical problem, John P. There is No ethical problem.

Some enfants as young as 25 weeks can survive whereas others are aborted at 28 or even 30 weeks.

But in a late term abortion, there is usually no way the baby could survive, regardless of how long it stays in.

The fact is that the kind of birth defects that lead to a baby’s dying either at or shortly after birth can only be diagnosed at 20 weeks plus. The baby can be born without a brain, without vital internal organs or a functional heart and lungs.

Those who argue against late term abortions seem to believe that they are chosen for all sorts of silly reasons. They are not. They are painful, unpleasant procedures that are not entered into lightly. They are done because, usually, the alternative is giving birth to a baby that you will then have to watch die.

There is also an argument for universal healthcare here in that in the UK, women can have as many scans as they like, and abnormalities can be picked up earlier. In the US, without medical insurance women may only be able to afford one late scan, hence the abortions at 30 weeks and the like.

I’m an Atheist, and believe that his murder was a horrid crime. However, he was a horrid man doing immoral actions. More than 2/3rd of the late term abortions he performed were outside any clinical boundaries, with respect to being life threatening to the potential mother.
I know that on long, bloody nights midwives and doctors have always had to make the call, one life lost or two; but Tiller killed viable babies, not fetuses, babies.
My son was born at 29/30 weeks and you can be damned sure that changed my whole perspective on the whole abortion debate.

More than 2/3rd of the late term abortions he performed were outside any clinical boundaries, with respect to being life threatening to the potential mother.

Source?

And Morgoth, as I reminded you before, Dr. Tiller was himself a “theist.”

“Gene asked you for evidence, Julia, not opinion-piece smears.”

I thought the NYT piece was quite a fair summation of the case.

Perhaps you should read it again?

“They are done because, usually, the alternative is giving birth to a baby that you will then have to watch die.”

I’m glad you threw in the ‘usually’ there. And what about the cases that don’t fall under that category?

And what about the cases that don’t fall under that category?

I don’t know how many abortions for social reasons were carried out by this man, and even if I did I wouldn’t be in a position to pass judgment on each and every one.

I’ll leave that up to others.

And Morgoth, as I reminded you before, Dr. Tiller was himself a “theist.”

No one is perfect, eh?

Gene’s second paragraph was really rather trite and inappropriate I felt.

Why haul poor old Dick Cheney into this, Gene?

Palubiski is essentially no different from those who apologise for Hamas.

Gene’s second paragraph was really rather trite and inappropriate I felt.

Gee, you think?

It’s as if Gene thinks that this guy is affiliated with secretive organizations with the explicit aim of bringing the West to its knees; as if there were thousands more like him, in terrorist cells, attending training camps to learn how to kill their opponents.

Either that or he’s got a serious axe to grind, the fatuousness of the comparison be damned.

And simplistic slogans from the extreme wings of “pro life” or “pro choice” are equally idiotic.

Wise words!

Not always, but often, the Middle way is best. Mindful naturally, of the middle ground fallacy.

Certainly, I find this so on the abortion issue. Nobody has a monopoly on tender feelings for tiny infants, be they 2 months olds burbling gently in their cot or 24 weeks olds……whatever their location, be it in an incubator or a uterus. Nor does anyone have a monopoly on empathy and compassion for the situation many pregnant women find themselves in.

And as a male, I have just as much right to have a view on the ethics surrounding abortion and how society should handle the conflicting interests involved, as any woman does on matters of paternal responsibility or matters relating to policy issues on the use of combat troops.

Irrespective of all this, without any hint of equivocation, the murder of this doctor was wrong. Those that justify it or radiate any hint of equivocation are truly on the dark side, occupying exactly the same moral cesspit as those that ride on the coat tails of terrorism….which is exactly what this murder was.

gene

Thanks. I got hammered when i tried to explain that thee were exceptional cases and noone wandered in off the streets to his clinic.

This clinic was a tertiry medical referral centre where people were refered from many states where they could not perform these procedures no matter how compelling.

A tertiary referral service is not the first port of call for a woman wondering if she can have an abortion while waiting in the dole queue and before she scores some crack no matter what the nutters here think.

And given that patients entering the clinic are mobbed and stalked for days, receive death threats and get large coloured pictures of mangled aborted babies in the mail, it might put off your average indolently pregnant crack head.

Although the financial incentive the ‘pro-lifers offer could be a tempting offer as a way of scoring more crack and when the cash runs out they turn to theft and mugging get busted and give birth to a brain damaged crack addicted baby in Jail, that her mother takes and leaves to fend for himself growing up in gang culture where he kills his first gang enemy at the age of 14 and his fifth muder by the age of 16 where he ends up on death row, where thanks to the new expedited execution service offered by the state (brought in by a Governer elected on a pro-life ticket) he is finally executed by his 19th birthday.

Being Pro-life is such a wonderful thing, you do Gods work, have no moral doubts and get to feel all pious and pure eithout feeling remotely responsible for the consequences.

No bad people are responsible for bad things and killing children who kill is just speeding up God’s work forr the religious and for the non-religious its just removing the dangers to society promptly.

I would say that the promptest prevention for easily predictable future outcomes for an unwanted child born into no hope circumstances would be contraception and following that the failure of hte first line prevention then abortion on demand.

But if people could get through their heads that in the case of Tiller we are not talking of abortion on demand we are talking of last instance emergency abortion to prevent a far greater evil.

It is gross and deeply insulting to the women who have had to run the shameful gauntlet of hate at Tillers clinicto characterise these women as wanton child murderers. Many of these women have desperately wanted a baby many have tried for years to conceive only to find their life threatend or the baby dead or dying or incredibly deformed with little hope of living much past birth or of being so physically or mentally disabled that any meaningful life would be non existant.

I dislike the principle of abortion and i dislike especially elective abortion in the case of disability (thought most often the ‘moderate’ pro=lifers stay quiet about the circumstances in which they would have an abortion).

But who am I to even dare to comment on the choices facing a woman who at 22 weeks (yes this is a real patient of tillers) discovered that her baby had a brain the size of a walnut who would be born with no appreciable brain function.

The thing is Julia M I don’t fucking believe you. I bet you would have an abortion in those circumstances wouldn’t you?

Or does your idea of rosie motherhood include the very non-Disney baby with a giant head and no brain?

In the US, without medical insurance women may only be able to afford one late scan, hence the abortions at 30 weeks and the like.

If you mean ultrasound, every gyn/OB office has one. And women not covered by insurance can be covered under other programs. No one is denied pre-natal care.

“But who am I to even dare to comment on the choices facing a woman who at 22 weeks (yes this is a real patient of tillers) discovered that her baby had a brain the size of a walnut who would be born with no appreciable brain function.

The thing is Julia M I don’t fucking believe you. I bet you would have an abortion in those circumstances wouldn’t you?”

Well, yes. Of course. Read my comments above. Particularly where I made reference to ‘catastrophic, life-limiting, horrendous birth defects’.

I think ‘brain the size of a pea’ falls into that category, don’t you?

Although I suppose you could argue that it’d be better to let it live, so it can grow up to be a ‘Harry’s Place’ commenter who has an excuse for knee-jerk posting without ever reading or comprehending the comments it was supposedly replying to…

Well, Julia, you still haven’t given a specific example of a late-term abortion performed by Tiller to which you would have objected. And yet you still consider him one of the vilest human beings to have inhabited the planet.

Give em Hell, Mettaculture.
Thank you for an eloquent and eye-opening post.

kmag: You may have just rendered me permanently impotent.
In which case, my lawyers will be suiing you for every last cent you have!

The charges brought against him say otherwise – the first were dismissed, but it seems likely he’d have faced others, had he not been murdered.

The NYT article I linked to stated that, in the instances mentioned for abortions that did not meet the criteria, ‘This evidence is persuasive, but not dispositive.’

That’s good enough for me.

“And yet you still consider him one of the vilest human beings to have inhabited the planet.”

Can’t say I’d given him that much thought before this, and my list is pretty long. He isn’t close to the top, more like half way, actually…

Hmm, something seems to have happen to kmag’s post wondering if Gene shouts out “Dick Cheney” during sex. Must have been accidently deleted. That is what I was refferring to second half of my 8:54 pm post.

“No doctor would do a late abortion unless there were really very terrible reasons for having to do so.”

Are you sure

This, from someone reporting on the evidence at Tiller’s trial:

“…Under Kansas law, two independent physicians have to confirm that a woman carrying a viable unborn child could be saved from death or “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” only through a late term abortion.

Not one woman among the five with whom Michelle was being processed, herself included, risked physical or mental health impairment of any sort.

The women talked among themselves during their stay in Wichita.

“All were there,” Michelle testified, “because they were told [late-term abortion] would solve their problems.”

These problems ranged from unreliable boyfriends to socially ambitious parents.

In other words, Tiller was fully prepared to abort five healthy babies, ready to be born to five healthy mothers, in flagrant disregard of the most serious of Kansas laws….

…I remember yelling at the nurse and calling her names and telling her I did not want to be on the toilet,” Michelle recounted.

“I finally birthed the baby and I distinctly remember seeing the baby on the floor to the left of the toilet.” Said Michelle, “That image haunts me daily.”

Despite the alleged threat to her health, there was no follow-up care of any kind for the young woman. Nor did Tiller’s clinic call to see that there was.

Only when Michelle obtained her medical records four years after the abortion did she learn the depths of Tiller’s deceit: he had falsely designated her baby “non-viable,” a status that requires a lower standard of validation.

For an abortion on a viable baby, one capable of living, a second doctor, one not affiliated with the abortionist, must verify that the abortion is needed to prevent the mother’s death or impairment.

Even Neuhaus’s sham second opinion added time to the process, time that might have enabled a waverer like Michelle to resist parental pressure and halt the process…”

David All: If Dick Cheney can pop in this blog post, he can pop up anywhere.

There is no clear cut evidence that Tiller illegally aborted healthy fetuses where there was no viability problem or where the woman’s health was not an issue; the reason there is no evidence is that the pro-abortionists stopped the investigation in to Tillers activities.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53721

We do know for sure that Tiller broke state law by refusing to report to social services the names of children, from 9-15, who had abortions and were therefore rape victims. Tiller often pointed out that he had provided abortions for children as young as 9, and yet these were not reported to the child support agencies.

Julia M:

So – if a mother would likely die as a result of bearing a child, that’s ok with you?

You know, I don’t often agree with what the far left says, but this is spot on.

large coloured pictures of mangled aborted babies in the mail

They’re often pictures of the result of ectopic pregnancies, I think, rather than actual abortions. I find it ironic that these are used to persuade women not to have abortions when, in fact, these little mites would have killed their mothers had they remained where they were.

Certainly a couple I’ve seen have been still nestled within the Fallopian tube they’d just ruptured.

Although I suppose you could argue that it’d be better to let it live,

There’s no “letting” it live. It will die, no matter what you do.

The story from Michelle Arnesto-Berg.

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1453

Also this.

in fact, these little mites would have killed their mothers had they remained where they were.

The womb bigots don’t care. After all, given how much they hate women, what’s another ruptered fallopian tube and resulting agonising painful death eh? They’re only women, remember?

Boy, threads like this brutally disprove allegations that Harry’s Place bloggers have spent too long sucking up to right wing lunatics, don’t they?

Any chance actual left wingers like myself could be unbanned any time soon, while I’m at it?

Wow! That was quick.

The womb bigots don’t care.

I think you misunderstand. I said the photos were used by anti-abortionists. I don’t think they are campaigning against treating ectopic pregnancies (although they might if they knew they existed), I just think they’re misappropriating these images.

Boy, threads like this brutally disprove allegations that Harry’s Place bloggers have spent too long sucking up to right wing lunatics, don’t they?

Any chance actual left wingers like myself could be unbanned any time soon, while I’m at it?

I didn’t unban you, but it seems we suck up to leftwing lunatics too.

I said the photos were used by anti-abortionists</i.

I just think they’re misappropriating these images.

That’s hardly a surprise. Given how much they hate women though, they probably are also against treating ectopic pregnancies as well.

Morgoth, one doesn’t have to hate women to wonder whether the killing of a viable infant leads to any ethical concerns. You are speaking in bald, parodic terms here about an issue that lies at the very fuzzy borders of morality and the definitions of human dignity. I think it makes one uncomfortable because it reveals something very nihilistic at the core of morality: that when it comes down to it, we’re just parasites made up of masticated molecules. That this collection of molecules is valueless, but suddenly gains moral value by dint of passing through a vagina, is ridiculous. But probably just as ridiculous as any other system of ascribing dignity. So stop trying to pretend it’s a simple issue of nasty men and innocent women – this is about the literal beginnings of morality, and deserves more than your banal sloganeering.

Leave poor Morgoth alone. He’s just a chivalrous tool of the Patriarchy. He’s so misogynist he doesn’t know how much he really hates women. It’s a really extreme form of male privelege, actually.

M o r g o t h, do you really think I hate women because I want highly stringent regulation on abortions after 24 weeks?

Abortion is absolutely necessary sometimes, but the term “pro-choice” is so idiotic, it almost guarantees the procedure is going to remain controversial forever. The advancement of ultrasound technology makes it possible to see a fetus’ beating heart a couple of weeks after conception. It’s hard to speak about a “choice” after you witness this.

<>

A woman has the right to refuse to support a parasite, even if removing the parasite from her system will kill it. Just because we are female does not give anyone the right to use us as slaves.

If you don’t want to have an abortion, don’t have one. Other than that, mind your own business.

DocMartyn,

World News Daily is agenda driven, and not reliable in my opinion, so I am not reading the link. Do they mention the circumstances under which Dr Tiller “broke state law?” The ultra-nutcase Kansas Attorney General used his powers to harass Dr Tiller. I am not sure that it was state law, I think it was a ruling of the Atty-General that the names of these children were to be reported to him.

He wasn’t interested in helping these girls, he used the information to harass doctors AND THE PATIENTS. In the same way that the anti-choice nuts take down license plates and then call patients’ neighbors to tell them that the patient had an abortion, the Atty-General used his information to interfere in people’s private lives. It was a complete abuse of power and totally disgusting.

He was voted out in the next election, and good riddance.

“A woman has the right to refuse to support a parasite, even if removing the parasite from her system will kill it. ”

What grotesque objectification, Anat. You do realize that’s what you’re doing don’t you? Can you give us one good reason to regard you as a human being?

Gene says:

“Adriane, you’re right. I should have posted on the murder at the Little Rock army recruiting center. I hope you agree with me that it and the Tiller murder were equally abhorrent.”

Sure Gene, and perhaps you will count the number of Islamist terrorist murders within the borders of the US within the last ten or twenty years against the number of anti-abortion terrorist murders within the same period. Or perhaps you won’t. Of course you won’t.

Of course you won’t.

“There’s no “letting” it live. It will die, no matter what you do.”

A quick perusal of my full comment would have told you that that comment wasn’t serious, but was pointing up mettaculture’s lack of reading comprehension regarding my stated position.

Which does seem to be in evidence quite a lot on this thread, even among ‘Harry’s Place’ regulars who I’d always assumed knew better…

“Julia M:

So – if a mother would likely die as a result of bearing a child, that’s ok with you?”

That’s another dilemma, isn’t it? Physical harm to the mother, then no, obviously not.

But the ‘oh, I’ll kill myself if…’ scenario? No, then I’m not so sanguine.

“The womb bigots don’t care. After all, given how much they hate women…”

Odd. Am I a ‘womb bigot who hates women’ too?

You know, given that I’m a woman who actually possesses one?

The other act of “Terrorism that Worked” was this Jihadi murder in Little Rock. There will be no posting on this allegedly “progressive” website about that.

I personally am glad that the Josef Mengele of late term partial birth abortions is permanently out of business.

The fight against human rights abusers is worth every bit of vitriol spewed from said supporters of mass murder of the most vulnerable minority group on the planet.

Shame on you all! And you know who you are!

The same dehumanization was used to execute genocides and enslave a race….its really really ugly. Your support and advocation of legal abortion is also is a huge knock to any credit you may think you have as advocate for human rights.

The womb bigots have accused *me* of misogyny?

I think my irony meter has just exploded.

Damn you Gene, I want a new one.

P.S. what Anat said.

The advancement of ultrasound technology makes it possible to see a fetus’ beating heart a couple of weeks after conception. It’s hard to speak about a “choice” after you witness this.

You must have access to some pretty high-tech ultrasound, when the heartbeat can only reliably be seen after about 6 weeks, and sometimes longer. I have seen it, and I have to say that I will still talk about a “choice”. It looks like a quivering blob – the emotions one feels when it’s seen are highly subjective and can hardly be transposed into a coherent policy. Not only that, but a late term or partial birth abortion will inevitably follow several ultrasound scans which show not only a heartbeat, but a brain and arms and legs.

There must be thousands of women who have seen the heartbeat, and much more, and had an abortion, so it’s obviously not a very effective preventative measure – even early pregnancy will be confirmed by ultrasound before an abortion is carried out.

Geez, we’re Megele now?

Why? For recognizing that living, breathing women are important, that sometimes things go wrong – girls are raped, pregnancies go wrong – it isn’t a human rights violation to make difficult choices that defend the lives of the living!

Sometimes the choices are agonizing and it isn’t for anybody outside the situation to judge because you are not there, it isn’t YOUR body, it isn’t your problem, your grief, your child – often very wanted.

It isn’t your trauma at having been raped or abused, your sorrow at bearing an infant who can’t survive outside the womb or who may, if he survives, be dreadfully impaired.

I have news. My mother lost her first child at birth, a much wanted, much loved son. She’d labored for more than 36 hours, became toxemic, was nearly dead when the (Catholic) hospital advised my father (also Catholic) that he needed to make a choice: my mother or the infant.

They wanted to save the infant so he could be baptized. He would have died shortly thereafter anyway because he had serious birth defects. But they were willing to sacrifice my mother!

Thank G*d for my father who begged the doctors to save my mother.

Some of you would have saved the baby, my mother would have died in agony, the baby would have died shortly thereafter, but everybody would have felt holy.

SO: I have a four letter word I’d like to insert here but I’ll skip it and ask you judgemental so-and-so’s to please try and learn the real meaning of compassion.

PS would you like to call my father Mengele now? Or my mother’s courageous doctor?

Or my mother for that matter, whose life hung by a thread, and who would have been sacrificed so the infant could have been baptized – maybe my mother was Mengele too?

THINK. Life puts us in very hard situations sometimes and absolutism holds few answers.

PS: remember the one about the prostitute and the stones? Stop with the judging already and try to discover the real meaning of love.

I hope none of the people on this thread excusing this man’s murder are going to start getting all self-righteous next time some brings up Israel’s actions on a thread about Hamas. One particularly loathsome right winger seems to regard it as more morally wrong to throw an egg at a fascist than it is to murder a doctor!

Can’t we get back to the issue; the wrongs of murdering a doctor?

There are some people here who seem to think that one kind of terrorism is more acceptable than all of the other kinds…

“Can’t we get back to the issue; the wrongs of murdering a doctor?

There are some people here who seem to think that one kind of terrorism is more acceptable than all of the other kinds…”

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that the murdering of this Doctor was in any way acceptable. People have merely been arguing about the morality and ethics of his practice. Don’t confuse this.

Sophia

Some of you would have saved the baby, my mother would have died in agony, the baby would have died shortly thereafter, but everybody would have felt holy.

My sympathies.

However, I still have concerns with voluntary termination of a pregnancy after the 6th of 7th month UNLESS, continuing the pregnancy would seriously endanger the mothers life. And there was no viable alternative.

If the late term pregnancy would seriously endanger the mothers life, I would accept the mother’s decision, (if she were in a lucid state of mind), whatever it was.

I would accept the mother’s decision, (if she were in a lucid state of mind), whatever it was.

That’s very magnaminous of you, accepting that a woman has control of her own body. Very generous.

““No doctor would do a late abortion unless there were really very terrible reasons for having to do so.””

I am fairly new to this blog. The doctor worship around here is pretty striking.

I am curious as to what people see as the limits on abortion. If a woman can do what she wants with her body, does she have the right to an abortion in the 8th month of a normal pregnancy, with a normal baby.
Where are the lines drawn, if at all.

I personally am pro choice (I am from the U.S. and that’s how I vote), but I am not comfortable with its implications. I look for a middle ground, but I can’t really find one in this debate. As one who does not have a particularly high regard for the medical profession, I am not at all comfortable in deferring to them on moral decisions.

Stan

That’s very magnaminous of you, accepting that a woman has control of her own body. Very generous.

And what about a little ‘controle’ to prevent unwanted pregnancies? With all of the different forms of birth controle now available it’s a wonder women, women who belive in choice and controlling their own bodies, still end up with an unwanted pregnancy.

The pro-aborts always invoke the sacrosanct “choice” and “controle” after the fact, and never before.

I think that many abortions are just another manifestation of partriachal controle. The pressure of boyfriends and the threat they’ll leave if the woemn gives birth figure large in reasons why women abort.

And as for terrorism–since Dr Tiller was murdered by a ‘christofascist’, radical islamists, jihadists and suicide bombers have killed dozens.

With all of the different forms of birth controle now available it’s a wonder women, women who belive in choice and controlling their own bodies, still end up with an unwanted pregnancy.
John P: No it isn’t a wonder. That is a very smug and uninformed statement. You clearly have not studied or encountered the many ways in which even modern birth control methods can fail, no matter how careful the user. Only a slight fallibility in the method, either on its own, or combined with a slight fallibility in the user can result in pregnancy.

Sophia

I am sorry it must have been hard to tell that story, because by the way you write G*d, I assume you to be devout and so the pain of the moral conflict lives with you still.

Thank you because in showing us that real people (your Father) not monsters make these decisions and real Drs in a Catholic hospital will act to avert the greater evil.

You have indeed shown us the true meaning of compassion, and passion because you even came close to swearing, something I imagine you never do, (a virtue that I do not posess I am afraid), because of the stupid ignorant armchair puritans with no real humanity.

I am sure that your birth confirmed the moral rightness of your Father’s decision, and brought them great happiness that must have eased the pain of their loss.

peace and blessings to you.

They wanted to save the infant so he could be baptized. He would have died shortly thereafter anyway because he had serious birth defects. But they were willing to sacrifice my mother!

Just what kind of Catholics were these people.

The Church clearly states that in cases where the pregnancy will kill the mother abortion is permitted, even encouraged.

John P: No it isn’t a wonder. That is a very smug and uninformed statement. You clearly have not studied or encountered the many ways in which even modern birth control methods can fail, no matter how careful the user.

So methods of birth contrôle, such as condoms, are unreliable and prone to failure and so abortion is therefore justified.

Yet AMIE, I bet you’d be the first to promote the use of those same unreliable and prone to failure condoms as the major weapon in combatting AIDS infections, and would denounce those who’d promote either celibacy or monogamy as the best means of preventing the spread of HIV.

Funny.

Sophia, thank you.

Don’t set strawmen Sophia, 99% of Catholics in you family’s situation would save the mother. I know I would, agonising as it may be. The issue here is late-term abortion of a viable being. Try not to confuse matters.

you should be yours obviously

John P. Your assumption that I was talking about condoms is wrong. For HIV prevention, condoms are still very effective. I had in mind the pill, which interacts with a long list of other medications and even so called “natural” remedies like St John’s Wort. I thought I was clued up on these, but just checking before writing this, I found some obscure culprits such as antifungal medication and Soya supplements taken for bone health. So if I didn’t know, what about other women? And of course, vomiting and diaorrhea negate the pill’s effect.

I also had in mind IUD devices, which are not 100% effective, and moreover if you do get pregnant on them, some medical centres will strongly advise a medical termination as where the IUD cannot be safely removed (as is often the case) they regard there being a risk of death to the mother by toxic shock syndrome, or a very bloody third trimester miscarriage. I know someone who nearly died experiencing the latter.

Anat;

A woman has the right to refuse to support a parasite

Alzheimers patients and infants are parasites too, yet we are not allowed to kill them. Should we?

Amie:

I recall a statistic that said half the women who had abortions were not using birth control when they got pregnant. I shall try to locate the link. I find it hard to believe that the 30% of pregancies which are aborted are due to contraceptive failure. Modern birth control is highly reliable.

Jim wants proof that I am a human being. Thank you for proving my point. People such as Jim do not think of women as complete human beings with autonomy over their own bodies, they think of us as VESSELS for the procreation of children, and they think that the state and any busybody who wants to interfere have more right to decide my future than I do.

Forget it. We are not vessels, nor slaves, and we have a right to decide whether or not to take the risk of pregnancy without anyone else having a say unless and until we grant that say.

And Jim, I am a human being because I am born, breathing, and alive. A fetus is none of those things, and thus not entitled to rights which supersede mine. It doesn’t surprise me that you do not recognize women as human beings, but that is YOUR problem, not mine.

Escape Velocity,

Your use of Nazi imagery is typical of anti-choicers, and indicative of your misunderstanding of both abortion and history.

The Nazis murdered real, living people. Doctors who perform abortions do not. Trying to smear doctors who perform necessary, if unpleasant, medical procedures trivializes the real suffering of real people in order to score some sort of debating point.

It is repulsive to those of us who live with the Shoah every day that you would dare to suggest the murders and torture of our families, not to mention the ongoing misery of those who survived are somehow no more important than voluntary medical procedures.

Sicko.