Harry's Place

My favourite bit of the Silverstein piece is this:

“Let’s not do that now. Let’s acknowledge the danger that white supremacists and all violent forms of racism pose for our society (not just Jews). Let’s join with groups like the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which denounced the shooting, to make common cause to fight this hatred.”

Huh?

CAIR has nothing to do with this issue at all. Of what possible relevance does a Muslim Brotherhood front organisation, that was a co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation Trial that resulted in lengthy prison sentences for their associates, who were found guilty of fundraising for Hamas.

As far as I know, the Muslim Brotherhood has no relationship with the American Friends of the BNP or any neo Nazi group in the US.

This event didn’t involve Muslims. It involved an aged white Nazi.

What in fact Silverstein means is “let’s be nice to Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood”, and the reason he says that is because he’s passive-aggressive, and thinks it would be a funny wind up.

A BNPer on the CiF thread is wholly in agreement with Silverstein:

ThinkPositive
11 Jun 09, 8:42pm (about 15 hours ago)

Quote from above article: “People like Abe Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, live for tragedies like this. You wait. Tomorrow or the next day he’ll be holding a press conference with the security guard’s wife telling the world that African-Americans and Jews must make common cause against the vast antisemitic conspiracy. If he’s really feeling his oats that day he might even work in a reference to an evil Iranian president who denies the Holocaust as well. Mark my words, it’s coming.”

Well said.

That the killer attended meetings of the AFBNP should NOT be used against the party (although it inevitably will be) since many people would attend such meetings and even members of the BNP have radically different views from each other – with some being extremely pro-Zionist and even sympathetic to the brutal treatment of Palestinians by Israelis, as well as a number with the very oppostite view, and a many who are fans of Churchill and vehementaly anti-Nazi. And others who are very “green” and opposed to man made global warming and racism. Immigration being associated with concreting over the countryside. The amazing thing about the BNP is the vast chasms that exist between the various world views of members. I am a member myself, and one has really to be careful to establish the perspective of the fellow member one is speaking to without assuming they will agree with you on virtually anything!

The age of the perpetrator (a loner and misfit) is significant and should be seen as the last gasp of neo Nazis in America.

How embarrassing for Richard Silverstein.

It turns out that it is only Richard Silverstein who has chosen to use the shooting at the Holocaust Memorial Museum to play politics.

Abe Foxman and the ADL did no such thing. They put out an appropriate antiracist statement.

Tikun Onan is best ignored. The Ueber-narcissist Silverstein loves any mention he gets on other sites. His opinions are designed to provoke a reaction.

I agree. Tikun Onan is a much more appropriate name for Silverstein’s blog.

I wonder if the extremist and antisemite Joachim Martillo who posts deranged and racist comments on Silverstein’s blog will ever receive a “Sorry, but your IP address has been associated with spam in the past.” message at Tikun Onan.

If not, Silverstein’s blog could be called Sin’at Olam.

You don’t do Richard Silverstein (RS) and his blogging justice. He/it is much worse than your summary and excerpted passages suggest. RS has mocked Holocaust rememberance; generally refuses to take note of murderous attacks on Jews, especially Israeli ones, and when he does, it is often to excuse the perpetrators and place blame on the victims; vituperates against any to his right, which is a huge number of decent and honorable people, e.g., Bernard Lewis and Natan Sharansky; and more, like this latest outrage instructing Jews “(t)he tragic shooting at Washington’s Holocaust museum should not be used to fuel claims of victimhood or fears of antisemitism”.

Really, you should give RS his due and acknowledge him for the truly execrable person that he is.

Tikun Onan is a much more appropriate name for Silverstein’s blog.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ~*pauses to breathe*~ hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Silverstein comes across as a quite nasty character, which I first noticed following his “seeking out Jews-as-Jews at Bombay is not necessarily antisemitic” piece. The overwhelmingly negative response produced something about the “Jewish Taleban”.

Was it not someone at Titties Groan who mocked whodocallhim from Austria for a grammatical mistake?

Petra, good article.

It’s an attitude of mind (if that is not an oxymoron) for some contributors and authors alike on CiF to anticipate how they believe people will react. Of course, given that many who post on CiF are massively cognitively distorted, it’s easy for the seeds to be sown for those expectations to become facts without the usual process of reality-testing as the hate-fest spins out of control. I believe that the buzz it gives is akin to a sexual one and it is highly addictive. I wonder what would happen if people stopped posting there?

And the execrable Silverstein is projecting in his usual fashion. His disturbance is reflected in the title of his blog – Tikkun Olam – and no doubt he is narcissistic enough to believe that he alone is instrumental in repairing the world, rather than adding to the hatred in it by what he writes.

And j.r., given the narcissists are essentially in love with themselves, or at least with the idea of themselves they would like everyone to believe in, I, too was very amused your renaming of Silverstein’s blog.

jr: “The Ueber-narcissist Silverstein loves any mention he gets on other sites. His opinions are designed to provoke a reaction.”

Can you imagine how that makes me feel – I thought so, too; and in fact on one occasion when he was criticized, he gloated at his blog how the hits for the post in question went through the roof – but the fact that he blocked my access seems to show that he doesn’t want to have any reaction from me…I do feel so discriminated against!!!

Lbnaz – you have quite a way with words…

However, seriously, in addition to the points DavidT highlights in his comment upthread, there are quite a few truly bizarre aspects in the piece by RS; e.g. like when he quotes one “of the murderer’s other white supremacist friends” as distancing the milieu from Brunn’s act:
“De Nugent … described the shooting as the act of ‘a loner and a hothead’.”
RS mocks this, and then goes straight on writing:
“We know how the usual suspects among the Jewish leadership will line up on this. Instead of describing this incident as the lone act of a desperate, mentally unstable creature”….

But what is in my view really most disturbing — or perhaps just quite disturbed? — is that this whole piece is railing against a reaction from “the usual suspects among the Jewish leadership” that RS only imagines, but among those who lap up anything that blames the Jews for crying “wolf” about antisemitism too often and without any justification, this will be accepted as yet another “proof” that this is indeed so.

Petra, re the last paragraph of your post at 2.52pm, see my post about the massive cognitive distortion in such people, which predisposes them strongly towards leaping from deranged thoughts to making them true, either because they don’t realise how deranged the thoughts are (which is disturbing) or they feel so beset and otherwise disturbed that they no longer have the capability to reality test them.

We all love Kapo Richard. (Cough – regurgitate – spit)

He reminds us of the everlasting embarrassment that Kapos brought on all Jews.

This is a message I posted to CIF but they deleted.

James Von Brunn according to CNN wrote:
“Obama is the tool of the Jews”

Richard Silverstein writes: “People like Abe Foxman, …Tomorrow or the next day he’ll be holding a press conference with the security guard’s wife telling the world that African-Americans and Jews must make common cause against the vast antisemitic conspiracy.”

Let see Von Brunn and Silverstein both claiming that Blacks are the tools of Jews.

Hmmm.

I have no time for Silverstein. His articles all seem to paint this absurd picture of Jews. He will deny any antisemitism even when it is obvious (as in the Mumbai attacks), and then portray this version of diaspora Jewish community which is just complete nonsense. (The entire IJV movement is based on this absurd notion that there is this dominant Jewish body that suppresses free speech.) I am not a big fan of Abe Foxman or the ADL (I think these organizations do tend to be oversensitive and too quick to want to ban things), but you have to be fair. Silverstein is really just interested in downplaying antisemitism.

“Let’s join with groups like the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which denounced the shooting, to make common cause to fight this hatred.”

Why? Why not join with the Estonian alliance of greater Portland to denounce it? This was a lone white supremacist nut. It had nothing to do with Muslims, Iran, or Arod’s possible steroid use. My problem is less with Silverstein than it is with CIF. Why publish a piece about what a theoretical response might be?

““(t)he tragic shooting at Washington’s Holocaust museum should not be used to fuel claims of victimhood or fears of antisemitism”

This is Silverstein in a nutshell. Jews are not victims and there is no antisemitism only a bunch of people pretending there is to justify mistreatment of Palestinians.

Thank you, Petra, for this trenchant and devastating fisking of Richard Silverstein, particularly for exposing the malign methodology of this supposed mender of the world. Of course, it won’t hold the Grauniad back from continuing to offer him a platform on CiF whenever he wants one,

mitnaged
Right, I saw your post only after I posted mine.

Gabriel: “My problem is less with Silverstein than it is with CIF. Why publish a piece about what a theoretical response might be?”
It’s actually not the first time: A year ago, after the horrible bulldozer attack in Jerusalem, Seth Freedman wrote a similarly themed piece on Cif, entitled “The inevitable overreaction” – again, whatever he railed against because it would happen shortly did not happen. It was another of those occasions where I wrote a piece in response, http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/warpedmirror/entry/the_inevitable_reaction_posted_by
and Seth was then sneering about it on Cif. I then offered him a debate, but after a few exchanges, he apparently wasn’t interested in that anymore; Cif, BTW, was willing to host the debate, as was the JPost. The lesson seems to be that people who publish pieces criticizing the Jewish community or Israel on the basis of their own fantasies like to do so without having their fantasies challenged.

Remind me. Wasn’t it Tikkun Olam’s editor who responded to Karl Pfeiffer with mocking contempt?

Clap Hammer
12 June 2009, 3:14 pm

He reminds us of the everlasting embarrassment that Kapos brought on all Jews.

Embarassment?! They were fourced to be Kapos! That’s like saying that all the Jews who obeyed the Nazis and stood willingly infront of the pits are an embarassment! Are you going to call them soaps next? Have we gone back in time to pre-Aichman Trial?

Whoops. Apologies. In that case it was the magazine Tikkun. Not Silverstein but Lerner – twins separated at birth:
http://blog.z-word.com/2008/09/michael-lerner-responds-to-karl-pfeifer/

Good afternoon Petra. We have met online previously.

I posted a comment on Silverstein’s thread on the killing of a guard in the Holocaust Museum in cif about his Tikkun Olam webpage and the acolytes who post on his forum.

I mentioned that I had never known him to say anything positive about Israel, at all.
The comment was deleted completely as if it had never been – no ordinary courtesies for me, such as ‘removed by moderator’ – apparently for some reason it was hugely embarrassing.

“But what is in my view really most disturbing — or perhaps just quite disturbed? — is that this whole piece is railing against a reaction from “the usual suspects among the Jewish leadership””

Exactly. Some Jews can only relate negatively to their own communities and leaderships. It was fun two hundred years ago.

I don’t know what to make of this incident reported in my local paper today:

” A 20-YEAR-old dental nurse was knocked unconscious and had three teeth and her jaw broken in a brutal and unprovoked attack by a stranger outside Edgware Station..He started being racist, calling my friends, ‘Jewish princesses’ and saying, ‘Mum and dad buy everything for you’.”

The attacker was white, the victim’s name is Chanelle O’Malley. You can see her injuries in the photo.
http://www.times-series.co.uk/news/edgwarenews/4427837.Young_woman_left_scarred_by_brutal_attack_in_Edgware/

WRT Silverstein’s bow to CAIR that DavidT highlights upthread, I wanted to add that while this certainly fits Silverstein’s fundamental philosophy, he also was nominated last year for the Brass Crescent award in the category “Best non-Muslim blog” (”Which blog writen [sic] by a non-Muslim is most respectful of Islam and seeks genuine dialogue with Muslims?”). I remember that RS once mentioned in a blog post (when I still had access and occasionally had a look at his blog) that he was very proud about this nomination; eventually, it was however Juan Cole (Informed Comment, ehm) who won, and Mark Elf (Jews Sans Frontieres) who got the “honorable mention”…
http://www.brasscrescent.org/

Jubilation — sure, I often read your comments; usually on my own Cif threads, I don’t use the recommend function at all, but on other writers’ threads I do… WRT the moderation policy, I thought it had improved and recently wrote so in a comment — the next thing I knew was that one of my comments was deleted; while a long list of fake or distorted “anti-Zionist” quotes that were endorsed on neo-Nazi websites and by guys like David Duke remained standing… However, I have no doubt that it’s a rather challenging task to work as a Cif-moderator, I could imagine that many people are very busy trying to get posts they don’t like removed under some pretext.

I entered the Tikun Olam post about the shooting. There were 23 comments on the articl – 3 or 4 were from other people, the rst was from him………

This IS the pathetic twerp who effectively enabled and validated the claim made during the Mumbai terrorist attack on the Chabad House. In his eyes, since the terrorists considered any Jewish target as an “Israeli” or “Zionist” target by the terrorists that the attack on CH should be accepted by onlookers as a rage against Israel and not as an antisemetic.

Look, if I’m mad at Mary (who could, BTW, rearrange my face in a fair fight) and punch the meeker Susan instead since she’s there and won’t send me to he emergency room, no matter how mad I am at Mary and how much she “deserves to get smacked,” no one with any honesty would call my attack one directed at Mary. I’d be a misogynist, case closed — unless your Richard Silverstein, and especially if Mary and Susan were both Jews.

Clap hammer

Isy is correct, Richard Silverstein is much worse than an average kapo. Most of these people hadn’t enough moral power to resist and cooperated with the nazis simply in order to survive. They were under extreme pressure and the circumstances were extraordinary. Naturally we musn’t forget their actions and excuse them but we can’t compare their situation with the conditions of Silverstein.

He is much worse than an average kapo.

the whole “Why did the Kapos do as they did?” question is part of the huge phlosophical question of “why did they go willingly?” that has to do with human nature and spirit. Such a big issue that, even though I’m the last person in the world to say no to a disscution, withought a diploma in philosophy, history and an array of other subjects that could be derived, you shouldn’t even begin to disscus.

I think using the word KaPo is ridiculous. I have used it myself in fits of anger but regret it.

He really is a jerk. Trying to reason with him is impossible. If you write something he disagrees with IN THE SLIGHTEST he attacks and accuses you of being a “right winger” and a member of Jihad Watch or worse.

In my case I took issue with a comment he made about “New York Jews” that sounded really bigoted to me. This was when Ahmadijenad visited Columbia and people were justifiably upset IMO. Regardless, rather than deal with their concerns and present a case as to why Columbia should have hosted Ahmadijenad he saw fit to slur people.

I tried to communicate with him about that for about 20 minutes and just gave up after being called a right winger and a Jihad Watchnikim (groups to which I emphatically do not belong) and I haven’t been back to his blog since.

What’s the point? It exists to puff him up, not to solve problems or communicate with other people. He throws up insulting straw man arguments rather than engage with the issue at hand.

I don’t know why this fool gets so much attention. He really shouldn’t.

Nu, maybe Silverstein thinks these Somali immigrants are Likudnikum now? They have turned on CAIR which is trying to get them to withhold information concerning young Somali men who are disappearing therefore they must be evil right?

http://www.startribune.com/local/47883727.html?elr=KArksUUUycaEacyU

He is illogical as well as insufferable.

This post by Cif regular Preemptivereposne is still there:

12 Jun 09, 9:26am (about 11 hours ago)

As American Africans are mainly in the US as a result of slavery, it’s a sad to someone blame them for his countries ills.

However I think his attempt to have Federal reserve members charged with treason sounds quite reasonable as they really do share responsibilty for America’s disatrous financial situation.

http://francisthedragonslayer.com/

He is defending Von Brunns earlier attempt at kidnapping FedRes members as “Nigger lover Jew traitors” with a gun,a knife and a bomb threat in 1981.

wow

maybe this wasn’t preemtivereeposne’s post, maybe the voices in his head told him to write the message! You shouldn’t come to conclusions so early ;D

Good post, Petra, much needed.

Silverstein is an excellent example of that horrid crossbreeding of New Ageism and leftism. He will whine about “right-wingers,” lecture about the need to have websites that are “safe places” for debate and similar twaddle. But disagree with him and he will turn on you with unbridled venom. A classic hippie, in other words.

Jubilation1 – The comment was deleted completely as if it had never been – no ordinary courtesies for me, such as ‘removed by moderator’ – apparently for some reason it was hugely embarrassing.

His acolytes will delete any link or reference to MEMRI too.

Silverstein proves that “truthiness” knows neither left nor right, Jew nor gentile. If he believes something to be true, he writes about it as if it is, regardless of his lack of evidence.

In Silverstein’s mind, to point this out or to disagree with his conclusions, one must be motivated by conservative bias.

Come to think of it, the idea of “conclusions” is turned around in his columns. He starts with conclusions and concludes with attacks on those who disagree.

Petra says, “..The lesson seems to be that people who publish pieces criticizing the Jewish community or Israel on the basis of their own fantasies like to do so without having their fantasies challenged.”

It’s not only a matter of “liking” to, Petra. Any challenge to their fantasies is perceived to be threatening of them as people. You have reminded me that these two (Freedman and Silverstein) are fully aware of how tendentious their views are, to the extent that they do not want to be publicly shamed by being bested in any debate.

Such people are not fully developed at any depth or in any sphere. They depend on others to define them, even in terms of their nastiness which gets them the attention and narcissistic supply they think they deserve. However, like all narcissists, the “false self” face they present to the world is false and brittle and it takes very little to shatter it.

Thus, Freedman’s “false self”, with its unnatural and unrealistic and misplaced pride, agreed to debate with you, Petra, but once the he realised that he was no match for you intellectually (and perhaps he himself didn’t at first and had to be convinced out of his “omnipotence” by his friends), the result was probably a deep sense of narcissistic injury.

Being shamed publicly, as he doubtless would have been, however, would have been much, much worse, so he didn’t want to be reminded of the debate at all. I followed his threads on CiF subsequently, and noted that every question about when the debate would take place was deleted in short order.

Particularly disturbing about Silverstein is his rigidity and total lack of insight in spite of being proven wrong in his most recent CiF article. He did the equivalent there of having an argument with himself and losing when he accused the author of an article on the matter published by the Israel Project of the very same “self-serving bull” as he himself evidenced in his nasty little article, and what it must have cost him to admit below the line that antisemitism exists, although he qualified that as it not being a big problem!

With the exception of you, Petra, and a very few others, it seems to me that CiF sets out to attract such people and/or they are drawn to it because there is little or no emphasis there upon the separation of truth from fiction.

Thank heavens for writers there like yourself!

“..He starts with conclusions and concludes with attacks on those who disagree…

Adam, in Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DBT) speak, this wonky thinking is called “making lemons out of lemonade.”

DBT is the treatment of choice for people with personality disorders. Maybe we should have a whip round?

Hi Folks

Excuse me for butting in here, but is this the two-minutes hate site ? I’ve been looking for it for a while now – I was feeling a bit rough after my wife beat me up with a saucepan this morning, so I was looking for a place where I could vent my rage and join in the lapidation of some poor unsuspecting bastard….

So let’s start with my old friend Clap the Rubber Hammer : hey Clap, Isy’s right about your use of kapo, kapostein, etc… I mean he may not be to your liking, but to put him in the same bracket as people who – willingly or unwillingly – aided and abetted the Holocaust sure is dumb on any number of counts. It just makes you sound like a stupid teenager with a chip on his shoulder. You’ll be calling him a Nazi next.

Ooops I forgot – you already did.

BTW, did you finally manage to get together that Giyus 2 site you were recruiting for last year ? I heard rumours there were 4 of you on there now. Congratulations, you doubled your membership in a year and a half !

More seriously folks (here I’m just addressing the ones among you who have been insulting or defaming these guys), why go on and on about Seth Freedman and Richard Siverstein all over public websites ? Can’t you find a public toilet somewhere where you can stick anonymous grafitti all over the walls, I dunno like “Dick Silverstein sucks” or “Seth Freedman gets it with Georgina” ?

Sure they have very different opinions from you, because they’re working out of different paradigms and value-systems, but it’s not as if they’re so powerful they’re going to single-handedly destroy Israel, and the Zionist movement, is it ? In every community you have dissenters and people with different approaches and opinions – isn’t this what democracy is all about ? Is it necessary to vilify and defame them, to ascribe all kinds of evil intentions to them – isn’t it enough just to provide better arguments than they do ?

Those who are strong speak quietly, but every word counts. The others – well the dogs bark furiously, but the caravan passes leisurely on its way.

“Hi Folks

Excuse me for butting in here, but is this the two-minutes hate site ?”

No. You must be looking for CiF. Go to the Embankment, face the river and follow the smell

Glad to be of service.

gingerwaster

Interesting to read your assertions that some Cif posters tried to recruit for Giyus especially knowing that you, Schusterian, LennyStone, your friend the well remembered “Tel-Aviv bomber” Khartoumi – MBJeffries plus other selected Isrel haters. cooperated with Seth Friedmann on his threads and tried to recruit others on CIF for your Jew bashing campaigns.

I can’t speak for others but I don’t feel hate against these worse than kapos only disgust.

Kapos never tried to convince the world opinion that the Nazis are the good guys, Silverstein and his/your fellow travellers are doing exactly this and while most kapos were simple opportunists and did what they did under extreme conditions you and your pals are doing it voluntarily.

You lament that somebody is putting Silverstein together with people who aided the Holocaust, but he and you are trying to help the creation of a new one as willing and enthusastic volunteers.

Exactly you and your ilk are those who are defaming Israel and the Israeli people but instead of public toilets you are using the Guardian CIF.

Providing better arguments than Silverstein? Really? Try to post any arguments on his blog better or worse if you have an Israeli IP address! Anyway as Jorge Semprun wrote you don’t need to argue or understand these kind of persons and it seems to me most posters here agree with him consciously or not.

PetetheHungarian

I am trying to convince the world that the Nazis were the good guys ? I’m trying to help in the creation of a New Holocaust ? LennyStone was too ? Oh Really ?

Can you substantiate that by any comment I or Lenny ever made on CIF or is it just the usual smear tactics based on…. pissing in the wind ?

You can’t substantiate either that I (or Lenny) have ever indulged in “jew bashing” – it’s just one more smear. I had some tough exchanges with certain people (especially those who resorted to racist comment, smear tactics or fabrications), but my focus has always been on denouncing the settlement enterprise – not on “defaming” Israel or Israelis. And you and your friends always gave as good as you got – and far worse besides.

You surprise me – I didn’t think you were quite as far gone as Clappy. From what I remember (I haven’t been on CIF for ages), you used to actually have a sense of humour, sometimes. What’s the problem Pete – things not going your way anymore, now Bush and Cheney are gone ? Having a post-election hangover or something ?

You see it’s precisely because you can’t refrain from spouting completely paranoid BS of this kind that you lose all cred with any reader with half a brain. It’s a great way to shoot yourself in the foot.

gingerwaster – You surprise me – I didn’t think you were quite as far gone as Clappy. From what I remember (I haven’t been on CIF for ages), you used to actually have a sense of humour, sometimes. What’s the problem Pete – things not going your way anymore, now Bush and Cheney are gone ? Having a post-election hangover or something ?

Perhaps you can remind us of some of the times that you have praised Israel’s achievements. You know. A Western Liberal Democracy. Equality for all its citizens. Equality for homosexuals. Medical achievements. HiTech achievements. A relatively independent Supreme Court. A relatively functional government. Certainly the most functional government for hundreds of kilometers around. Equality for Muslims. (No head tax).

Two links to any of the times you have pointed out our achievements on CI(F).

Sadly I cannot go there. I am banned. Since you are not posting there, perhaps you are banned too? Gentle Hermine no longer graces CI(F) with her sublime presence. The word is that her carers have curtailed all access to a vacant keyboard. Or perhaps, she has been banned too.

“Having a post-election hangover or something ?”

As for me, I am having a blast over the Iranian “election”.

Perhaps “blast” wasn’t the best choice of words…. ;)

Sure they have very different opinions from you, because they’re working out of different paradigms and value-systems,

gingerwaster (of my precious time’s) pseudo observation here can be applied so widely as to proscribe all criticism, everywhere and at all times, rendering his “thought”, well in a word, pointless.

but it’s not as if they’re so powerful they’re going to single-handedly destroy Israel, and the Zionist movement, is it ?

Here we have gingerwaster (of my precious time) sympathizing with Richard Silverstein and Seth Freeman because he/she assumes the former would like to destroy Israel if they could, (in Silverstein’s case, given the title of his blog, presumably in order to correct the world), but ought not be contradicted, because they can’t be expected to do it single-handedly.

Would Seth Freeman and Richard Silverstein appreciate gingerwaster’s impressively self defeating defence of their right to bravely try to destroy Israel, even though well aware that single handedly, their task might be Sisyphean?

Gingerwaster

So your purpose is to denounce the settlement enterprise? Could it be that our goals are identical? Not exactly. While my goal is really to put an end to the settlements my fight is based on the reality where every coins have two sides and I know that I can’t win to allying myself with movements and people whose strategic purpose is to destroy Israel, as you and your pals are doing on CIF. If you would give the smallest quantity of shit to the Palestinian cause you should fight against the apologists of Hamas and Hezb’allah (not to speak about your hero Ahmadinejad if we are speaking about election hangover) because they are the real stumbling blocks in the peace process and not the settlements. But naturally Mr. Silverstein and you either due to simple ignorance (I doubt it) or due to your hate of Israel and the Israelis (most probable) are propagating the lie that the only cause behind the Palestinians’ sufferings is the occupation and the existence of the settlements.
Everybody has his/her way to fight for a better future for the Palestinians, I’m doing my best to convince my fellow countrymen to try everything possible to achieve peace without endangering our security, your way is to fight from your study to the last drop of blood of the Palestinians supporting their worst enemies in a openly anti-Israeli blogspot like the Guardian CIF or Tikkun Olam.

Regarding your denial of Jew bashing you can call your activity on CIF communicating with the ghosts of dead buffalos it won’t change the objective character of it. But really you shouldn’t be ashamed of it you are among friends there like Mr. Silverstein et al.

Oh, I see, I’ve been missing things here — sorry, was trying to follow events in Iran…
ginger, it really is very funny to see you suspecting others of organizing “GIYUS 2″, given the fact that you belonged to a group of well-organized reliable cheerleaders for Seth Freedman — even to the point of helping him to write his stuff!!!

Well, I see that you haven’t gotten over your usual obsessions (GIYUS, settlement “enterprise”), maybe you’re too old to change much? But anyway, WRT your question why pay any attention to RS or SF — it’s amazing that you as an admirer seem to think they don’t deserve the attention, and maybe you’re right, but since both of them write a log, they provide so many good examples of the shallow thinking that is quite typical of the anti-Israel crowd — and it’s sometimes just fun watching people trying to make lemons out of lemonade, as mitnaged put it so aptly… and then they get all sour when somebody points out that it doesn’t quite work, particularly Richard gets easily upset about that, it seems. So he has all these rules on his website about “forbidden” sources and what can and cannot be said, and what can and cannot be thought, and everybody who doesn’t agree with him gets called names — all in all, quite revealing, I’d say.

Clap

No I haven’t been banned – I just rarely post – I got sick of the constantly poisonous atmosphere, the haphazard moderation and anyway, the settlements are now at the top of the agenda and can no longer be presented as a side issue, which wasn’t the case 2 years ago. Also, Bush and Cheney have gone thank (whichever God you worship), the US has taken a saner route at last, the chances of Iran being bombed to rubble have receded – in other words, the out of control juggernaut is back on the main road again – still plenty of problems, plenty of burning issues all over the planet, but we’re no longer quite so close to the edge, with a bunch of power-hungry energy and arms moguls and apprentice sorcerers at the helm. So I’ve been getting on with other things, cos there’s more to life than blogging.

As for me praising Israel’s achievements, I have often said positive things about Israel and Israelis, that if there was any society in the ME that I would prefer to visit or live in, it would be Israel and the people I’ve attacked are not Israelis but the Israeli ruling class. I’ve always done my best to make that distinction. Now if you’re asking me to go find those posts – well with the present setup, it’s too much of a mission – just to go back to 2006 would take 3 or 4 hours.

But it’s been, my position all along. My problem is not with Israel, but with the ongoing dispossession of Palestinians – the attampts to take away the little land and resources that rema

correction: since both of them write a lot…

…remain to them and condemn them to existence as 3rd class citizens on resourceless bantusans. You may believe this is a great outcome for Israel – I believe, if pursued as it is today, it will spell the end of Israel and much more suffering for all the peoples of the ME. Therefore I’m firmly opposed to the policy – and if you think this makes me an Israel hater, then it just shows you’re looking at the world through the wrong end of the telescope, while donning a pair of blinkers.

Petra

I see that “qui se ressemble s’assemble” ? Is this your local pub, where you relax with your mates after a hard day’s blogging ?

I helped Seth Freedman write his stuff ??? More and more interesting. I never knew I was THAT brilliant. I’ve become a legend in my time ;-) Can you substantiate that claim please ?

Also, what’s all this about a “well-organized group” (had to larf at that one) – can you also substantiate that allegation ? Who was in it and what do you mean by well-organised ?

As for the Giyus2 reference, it was obviously a joke – Clappy left his email at one time all over CIF, with messages to like-minded bloggers to contact him – what I remember is people kept declining…

So, can you substantiate your allegations ? Or will you admit you were wrong ?

….will chickens grow teeth ?

(Don’t you go getting the wrong end of the chicken, it’s just a French expression, equivalent to “will pigs fly?” but I didn’t want to offend….)

…remain to them and condemn them to existence as 3rd class citizens on resourceless bantusans.

10,000-year old city blames Israel for sewage problems

From Ma’an News Agency via Elder of Ziyon blog:

The West Bank city of Jericho, located near the Dead Sea at the lowest elevation on earth is believed to be one of the oldest cities in the world. The city is preparing to mark its ten-thousandth anniversary, and yet it still lacks a sewage network.

Over the past 15 years, mayors of Jericho have been asking donor states for the funds needed to install a modern sewage network which the town, reliant on tourism for much of its economy, badly needs.

“It is funny in 2009 that a historic city like Jericho lacks a sewage network. Israeli occupation played a major role in depriving Jericho along with several other Palestinian cities of many basic needs of modern life,” says the mayor of Jericho Ahmad Salih.

Do you notice the discrepancy between the second and third paragraphs?

An article from the NYT in 1995 sheds more light:

An international aid effort for the Palestinian Authority has been thrown into crisis because donors have not honored pledges to support a fund for the fledgling self-rule administration in the Gaza Strip and Jericho.

The fund, administered by the World Bank to help cover the authority’s operating expenses, has run out of money, aid officials said. The donors have failed to honor pledges worth about $36 million out of $60 million made at a meeting in Brussels in November.

Odin Knudsen, the World Bank representative in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said donors were less eager to give money for such day-to-day expenses than for development projects.

“This aid is invisible, because it shows up in salaries and not in new roads or sewage systems,” he said. “But this kind of money is essential because it keeps the administration going. If it is not paid, it can lead to a political crisis.”

While the United States honored its $12 million pledge for the Holst Fund, several European and Persian Gulf nations are among the donors that have not made their payments.

Jericho has been trying to get a sewage system for the past fifteen years. There is no indication that Israel has impeded them at all. On the contrary, between 1967 and 1993 Israel built up the entire West Bank infrastructure – water, electricity, hospitals – that had been ignored by Jordanian occupation.

The mayor’s Arab brethren have not paid for the system they specifically promised – a nasty habit they still seem to have. Yet the mayor reflexively blames Israel for “depriving” Jericho of a sewage system, even though Jericho has been under PA rule for 15 years.

So you are sick of the poisonous athmosphere…
Don’t think for a second that you and your organized group have a very imposing role to make it happen with your permanent accusations that your opponents are paid employees of some secret group called Giyus and anyway they are racist Arab-haters?
And you really believe that the settlements are the most important subject in world politics and we are not so close to a nuclear catastrophe like in the Bush years? Funny, I was convinced that the reelection of a hysterical religio-fascist in Iran, his actions and rhetoric not to speak about the expected political success of Hezb’allah in Lebanon and not forgetting the nuclear threats of the Beloved Leader in Korea are somehow more significant than the settlements, but everybody has his/her priority, you are worrying about the settlements others about the possible consequences of these events.

Ah and you didn’t attack the Israelis only the ruling class? Do you believe your own bullshit? What “ruling class” Ginger? The rich? They are not interested in the settlements at all.
Are the Palestinians condemned to live in bantustans? Yes they are. They have been condemned to live this way by their leaders and politicians but they and only they could change this situation by abandonning their goal of the destruction of Israel. Your rants about Giyus and the “disposession of Palestinians” without even contemplating the possibility that the situation would be totally different without the failed leaders and society of the Palestinian and other neighboring Arab peoples – this makes you an Israel hater.

And Pete, I’m going to have to put my turban back on, ain’t I – my beloved Amenjihad did you say ? Go on then, prove I have ever written one positive statement about this fellow – can you do it ?

No. Just like in your last post, you make allegations you cannot substantiate. What sort of debater are you ? And how can anyone believe your cause is just, since you have to resort to stupid accusations rather than rational arguments ?

Because on the contrary, I have criticized Amenjihad systematically, as I have Hamas.

This is the problem isn’t it – some of you guys seem to be living in a fantasy world where you don’t even register what people actually write. “This poster is not a supporter of Israel, he is therefore a jihadist sympathiser and a lover of Iran”. Plus he wears a turban and lives in a cave. And he awaits with impatience the day when the black (black ??) flag of Islam floats above Saint Paul’s. Yawn…..

Here’s an example of what I have said about jihadists time and time again :
(this was to Goodfairy)

“Have you read Ben Laden’s prose ? It is a curious mixture of very rational logic and a delirious torrent of medieval apocalyptic prose – I always remember one of the first messages destined for his followers, in which he waxed lyrical about the rivers of Muslim blood he and his followers would gladly wade through in their Jihad against the infidels. This mixture of cold rationality and messianic delirium is very typical of the paranoid mindset. Whether Ben Laden is still alive – or actually exists (he has embodied the perfect Emmanuel Goldstein for Bush’s Orwellian “War on Terror”), it is very clear to me that he and his followers have failed dismally in their war against the infidels, whose armies are now even more deeply embedded in Muslim lands and that he has allowed his followers to be decimated all over the planet and turned most Muslims against his Jihad.”

This was on another thread :

“To address all these points about Hamas – yes it’s perfectly true that Hamas refuses to recognize the legitimacy of Israel, that elements of their charter refer to the Protocols, that their proposals for an agreement are tactical rather than strategic, that they refuse to give up completely their claim to the whole of historic Palestine (one could more or less say the same of the charters of Kadima and Likud, minus the Protocols element – they also claim their historic right to “the whole of the land of Israel”).

Fatah and the Palestinian Authority however, who control the West Bank, are supposed to be partners of Israel and the Quartet. They have recognized Israel, have abandoned the armed struggle, have locked up Hamas militants, have accepted the principles of the Quartet. They have, as far as I can see, done everything within their power to accommodate the occupier.

Yet every time the Israeli government approves new extensions of the settlements in the PA-controlled West Bank, cuts off Palestinan villages from their agricultural lands, carries out military operations and “targeted” assassinations there, refuses to reduce the number of checkpoints that are strangling the West Bank’s economy, the pretext is always Hamas’s refusal to recognize Israel and the firing of qassams (now reduced to a trickle) from the Gaza strip.

In effect, the Palestinian authority – and the population of the West Bank – are being “punished” collectively for the actions and the political stance of their enemy and rival, Hamas, in Gaza. Or at least that’s the stated line of defense – I suspect the real reason is very different.”

Pete, if you want to actually debate, then why don’t you actually try debating, rather than talking manifest bollocks ? If you were some semi-literate bumpkin, I could understand. But you’re not, you’ve had the benefit of an education, so what the hell is wrong with you ? I mean seriously ?

Pete

What organised group ? Evidence please…

FYI : ruling class = the class that rules. I didn’t say the rich (though there are plenty of correspondences).

So, to summarize your “thoughts”:

- I am a jew basher, engaged in a project to perpetrate a second Holocaust
- I try to paint the Nazis as the good guys
- I am a friend of the jihadists
- I admire Amenjihad

You forgot – I have horns and a tail. And I have 666 tatooed on my forehead. lol

Correction to my last post : you ARE a country bumpkin.

Armaros

lol – you mean bombombombombomb Iran

Well I was hoping we’d have a Summer surprise over in Teheran, but the crazy fellow’s back. The interesting thing however is that there was a lot of very heated debate – and it was a real election (though the results were probably rigged at the end).

For the moment however, the most worrying regime is clearly North Korea – they just threatened nuclear war – and they have the warheads and the missiles (we don’t yet know if they can fix one onto the other). And not even a semblance of democracy.

You’d maybe be surprised, but a strike on their facilities I might well support. That’s a regime that needs to disappear off the face of the earth.

Thre is no need to answer to your post Ginger, it says about you enough.
Hamas = Kadima. Likud, Fatah accepted the abandoning of the armed struggle (de facto), neutralized the terror of Hamas, Israel executes “targeted assasinations (naturally without any reason), refuses to reduce the number of checkpoints (naturally without any reason), the population of the West Bank – are being “punished” collectively, (have I heard this BS regarding Gaza where as you say the firing of Quassams reduced to a trickle – why is that?), to make a long story short either you are writing about this subject whitout having the slightest idea, or you deliberately distorts the reality ad infinitum.

Regarding proofs of your participation in an organized group on CIF please read the CIF thread (and the relevant posts) eulogizing LennyStone.

Are you speaking about intelligent debate? Maybe you should first learn the facts about the subject to be discussed. It could help.

Armaros

lol – you mean bombombombombomb Iran

By whom, Israel?

Only if all else fails. I tend to worry about the precious few of the IAF/IDF to monger for a war like this.
The US, they have the ability to do this without risking as much as Israel would. Israel will not have the time the US or an alliance would.

Still you were against other methods as well. Namely to destabilize the regime. Something which may have just happened already. If Iran rids itself of this cancer, others will not have to risk their lives and image doing it for them.

It is too early to tell what is happening. I fear a Tiannemen type outcome and pray it will not come to that. As a bombing of sites and missile bases would have not produced a fraction of lost innocents to what this terrorist state can produce among its own.

Attacking NK would be a much messier deal. More dead, more displaced and more rubble. The idea that a 26 year old will soon take over there is something even Hollywood could have not dreamed up.

For me the rules are fair and apply to all. No nukes for psychos anywhere. That doesn’t mean bombing them is the first option.

It is just an option not to be ruled out.

And Iran also threatened nuclear war. Just did so in more subtle ways.

Gingerwaster, again it seems you are getting forgetful: Seth wrote a piece eulogizing LennyStone, and thanked him there for his mentoring, or however he called it, and on the I/P threads after Lenny died, there was quite a bit of reminiscing about the good old times when you, Lenny, schusterian, Seth, Khartoumi and a few others were pen pals and also met. And I think I remember a comment of you on the blog Alex Stein and Seth ran together back then were you vowed that you would keep an eye on me for them, or something along those lines.
Anyway, all this was transparently obvious from the threads — for a time, TrueLeft was also involved, which led to amusing incidents like he would put a post on my thread late in the night, and Seth had been staying up long past his usual bedtime to pop up shortly afterwards, triumphantly declaring that TrueLeft had “demolished” me or something like that… It was fun, I didn’t mind at all; but I don’t quite see your point here denying it. It was equally obvious, BTW, that you suspected others of posting as an organized group, because of course that’s what you yourself did…
WRT your other obsession, the settlements, I’m as much against them as any left-of-center Israeli. But your continuous harping on a long-standing sinister plot to grab ever more land etcpp showed you for the propagandist you are: never once you were willing to acknowledge that for decades, the Palestinians didn’t want a state of their own, and that Israel had legitimate security interests that were the original impetus for the settlement building. That got out of hand quickly; nevertheless, to claim that the settlements are to blame for the lack of peace is preposterous, as was well demonstrated with the evacuation of Gaza: we had heard for years that everything would be fine and dandy in Gaza if only there were no settlements in the midst of a Palestinian population that was so horribly squeezed into little patches of desert by those fancy Gaza settlements that took up all the lovely land in Gaza. So we left Gaza judenrein, even taking out the dead Jews from their graves… and the Palestinians promptly moved to use the former Gaza strip settlements as launching pads for rocket attacks against all those “settlements” on the border with Gaza… There was money to procure thousands of rockets, to build a huge tunnel network, and to accumulate huge stockpiles of weapons in Gaza, but Israel still got the blame for the situation in Gaza — and you happily chimed in. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to the concessions expected from Israel for peace, the goalposts are forever moving, and this is something you never had a problem with. And by cheering on a writer who, preposterously enough, has immigrated to Israel but thinks that now it’s time to disolve the state that gave him this right into a bi-national state so that other Jews won’t have the rights he took advantage of, you have shown yourself as completely bigotted.
And, BTW, since you’re fretting if HP is my preferred “pub” — I sure like the place because it’s standing for good old social democratic positions, the kind of stuff I grew up with; but this is the first piece I’ve published here.

gingerwaster, I know you of old. You are an archetypal spoiler and an antisemite. I remember your “satirical” poem on CiF and how it was deleted and you were banned and then reinstated after Georgina Henry’s double-jointed arms were twisted, probably by LennyStone.

And I know that Petra’s article about the reprehensible Silverstein has hit a nerve because here you are!

You don’t fool us.

People, may I suggest that we don’t feed this particularly spiteful antisemitic troll?

He probably gets off on the attention and, if fed, will hang around and try to poison the air here. If he is ignored then he will act out for a bit but, when he sees that he gets nowhere, will rot away.

Petra

More misconceptions :

- Of the people you mentioned, I have only met one – LennyStone.
- With the others, I have exchanged some emails – yes – and not always friendly ones – this happens a lot on CIF, I’ve also exchanged plenty of emails with people on your “side”, you included.
- Lenny had a special relationship with Seth and his family and met them a couple of times – but that was between them – I was never involved and did not help Seth with any articles he published.
-I had several violent arguments with Khartoumi and others supposedly “on my side” on CIF threads, which you have seen. But of course, this goes under your radar, because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

So to call that a “well-organised group” is more than slightly paranoid. On the other hand, CIF pro-Israeli bloggers are involved in groups all over the internet – Zionism on the Web, the Daily Telegraph blog, HonestReporting, Giyus, Frontpagemag, Jihad Watch, Harry’s Place, etc etc. No objection to it either – except that people like you constantly claim that to say so is paranoia, despite plenty of evidence, press articles, etc to the contrary.

As for my “obsession” with the settlements, the interesting thing is that today, they are center-stage in the conflict and the US government has them right at the top of the agenda – could it be they are obsessed/bigotted too or might I have been pointing out a real problem ?

When you came on CIF you claimed the settlements were a “side-issue”, that the Israeli government had nothing to do with them, that it was the work of a small minority of settlers (you know, the multiple-lane highways, the industrial zones, the police stations, the industrial planning of large towns, all built by some isolated guy with a shovel), that they were just “bargaining chips”, etc…

This was one of our main points of disagreement.

Since then, it’s become obvious to the international community that they are one of the central problems which have made the prospects of peace more and more difficult with time, that successive Israeli governments promoted them, supported and financed them, that massive long-term state planning was involved, that after every peace negotiation, contrary to commitments, settlement building boomed, that despite constant calls from international leaders just for a “freeze” on construction, no freeze was ever implemented – and now finally that the new US administration has been leaning on this point heavily, the situation can no longer be covered up in a convenient cloud of smoke – the IG has basically told Obama to go cook an egg, that settlement expansion will continue regardless.

I’ve never said the Israeli state was the only guilty party in the perpetuation of the conflict – Palestinian leaderships also have responsibility, but your constant theme is that it is entirely the fault of the Palestinians – and that is manifestly false, not to say biased to any outside observer.

As for Gaza, the only thing that was demonstrated was that Gaza did not interest the Israeli government – it was the West Bank. Please explain how, in the same year that 7000-odd settlers were removed from Gaza, around 14.000 settlers moved into the West Bank (quite a few of them former settlers from Gaza)? ie : the number of settlers in the territories (excluding natural growth) actually doubled that year. You’ll need to explain to me how this is evidence that the IG was sincere about withdrawal..

As for your claim that I support Seth’s idea of a bi-national state and that this proves I’m “bigotted”, once again this is manifest rubbish – never have I supported the idea of a single state, on the contrary I have always publicly stated that I didn’t think this idea has any chance of succeeding and that the only viable alternative today, considering the entrenched hostility, is a viable two-state solution – a solution which has been progressively undermined by the land grab. It is precisely because I see no alternative to a two-state solution that I am so opposed to the settlement building – pretty logical, isn’t it ?

The only other alternative is an apartheid system – and this is what we are moving towards fast today.

As for this pub being “social democratic”, full of reasonable people – I had to laugh. There is some diversity of opinion, maybe, but just look at this blog.

The proof of the pudding – on this thread, some of your pub friends are calling me, Lenny Stone, TrueLeft :

- jew bashers, engaged in a project to perpetrate a second Holocaust
- people attempting to paint the Nazis as the good guys
- friends of the jihadists
- admirers of Amenjihad

Says a lot about what a reasonable pub this is, doesn’t it ? If you feel comfortable with infantiles like Pete, well it kind of puts thing into perspective.

By the way, I liked your last article – apart from the usual bumph about the Palestinians being entirely responsible for the conflict or your attempts to make out that Lieberman is a reasonable politician, the article was balanced, interesting and informative. I wrote quite a long post to you on that blog saying so, but it vanished into the ether, which was frustrating.

Anyway, I’ve said my bit – there are interesting times ahead. I hope that a solution to this conflict will emerge in the next year or so, if the US is serious about twisting the arm of the settlement lobby, today occupying center stage in Israel. If they don’t succeed – and it has to be the last chance – then I dread to think what’s coming for the peoples of the region.

Ciao

MITNAGED

“You don’t fool us”

I don’t need to – you do it brilliantly all by yourselves. I’ve explained clearly what that ditty was about – a piss-take of Deronda’s supremacist rants, based on a very amusing satire of British jingoism by Flanders and Swann “A song of Patriotic Prejudice” – why it was called “Deronda’s Lament”.

But you believe whatever it is you want to believe – on this blog, the expression “in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king” comes to mind.

Correction to my earlier post Petra, I wrote :
“ie : the number of settlers in the territories (excluding natural growth) actually doubled that year.”
What I meant was – double the number of settlers that were removed from Gaza moved into the WB that year.

That’s it, bye.

It is, of course, arrogant for the evil Gingerwaster to speak of the “two- minutes hate,” Orwell’s term for an exercise in institutionalised anti-Semitism.

This is because Ginger and pal Freedman are so experienced in themselves propagating institutionalised anti-Semitism over at the institution known as the Guardian, where one of Freedman’s many, many fact-less rants defaming the Jewish state served as the inspiration for this example of two-minute hatred by Gingerwaster:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/seth_freedman/2007/06/1967_the_settlers_story.html#comment-633344

gingerwaster
Comment No. 633344
June 12 15:19
FRA

The Jewish Supremacy Rag

(Deronda’s Lament)

The rottenest bits of God’s Promised Land
Are still in the hands of Arabian bands
Examine the Palestinian, the Egyptian or Druze
You’ll find he’s a stinker and envies the Jews

The Jewish the Jewish the Jewish are best
I wouldn’t give two sheckels for all of the rest

The Egyptian is haughty as we’re all well aware
He’s boney, rides camels and is lacking in hair
He eats stuffed pigeons, he sleeps all the day
And hasn’t got rabbis to show him the way

The Jewish the Jewish the Jewish are best
I wouldn’t give two sheckels for all of the rest

The Palestinian now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his sandals and lies through his teeth
He blows up civilians and babies in prams
And blames it on Herzl and Moshe Dayan

The Jewish are moral the Jewish are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood

The Syrian’s dishonest, he cheats when he can
He’s shrewd and he’s wily and wants back the Golan
He digs underground ‘cos he’ll never forgive
And buries his rockets to blow up Tel Aviv

The Jewish the Jewish the Jewish are best
I wouldn’t give two sheckels for all of the rest

And further afield there ain’t much to be proud
of the Kurds, the Irakis, the Lybians or Sauds
The Lybians are Lybians, the Iranians are mad
And the Turks and Jordanians are almost as bad

The Jewish are noble, the Jewish are nice
And worth any other at double the price

And all the world over they all want to bash
That Light among Nations, that land of panache
They’re friendly with Muslims, they cheer when we lose
And they don’t like us settling the Land of the Jews

The Jewish the Jewish the Jewish are best
I wouldn’t give two sheckels for all of the rest

It’s not that they’re wicked or naturally bad
It’s just they ain’t Jewish that makes them so mad
The Jewish are all that a nation should be
And the pride of the Jewish are Yoshki and me

The Jewish the Jewish the Jewish are best
I wouldn’t give two sheckels for all of the rest

___

*The Jewish Supremacy Rag is a collective work by Right, UneVoix, Justwondering, Youwon’tlikethis, Deronda and others too numerous to mention…

Copyright Giyus.org

A challenging riddle:

Who best carries on the traditions of the Stürmer – Silverstein, Gingerwater, Freedman, Seaton, Henry, or Rusbridger?

Both the title and the content of Ginger’s “ditty” twist elements of Jewish cohesion, common to any ethnicity, in order to explicitly compare Jewish (not Zionist) solidarity to the racial theories of German Supremacy or White Aryan Supremacy.

Question for discussion: Has Ginger, apparently resident in France, violated that country’s criminal laws against (1) racial hatred and (2) support for Nazi ideas?

Here is evidence of Gingerwaster’s propagation of antisemitism on CIF and more

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/CommentIsFree_ParliamentASCttee_July08.pdf

When a dog gets hold of a bone….

That’s evidence Marion ? That’s Jonathan Hoffman’s ridiculous report on CIF that no one has taken a blind bit of notice of – hardly surprising is it ? You just have to read what he says about the Guardian to understand where he’s coming from (somewhere between Pluto and the outer asteroids I guess).

Certain people have clearly (and in some cases deliberately) misconstrued this ditty. It was in fact a parody of Deronda’s posts, which extollled Jewish Supremacy and constantly insulted Arabs, muslims, palestinians – and all “gentiles” in fact.

It is well known that from time to time, I used to rebuke or make fun of posters that are racist in content , that insult the Guardian, CIF bloggers and the readership, by calling them antisemitic without cause, that claim British people are jew haters or that Europeans are all antisemites “through the soil and water” (dixit Unevoix – which would incidentally make all European jews antisemitic too). II also challenge posters that are patently antisemitic. Racism is rife on both sides of the debate, though some people only see it in their brother’s eye.

In the present case, Deronda is a blogger who used to make comments such as these :

“Jews’ average IQ score is seven to 15 points higher than gentiles and they are exceptionally accomplished, claims the British social theorist Dr Charles Murray.”

“There are half a billion Arabs vs. 5 million Israeli Jews, yet we still managed to survive half a dozen invasions and occupy their territories.

Is it any wonder that they fear and envy us? Is it any wonder that they hate us?”

“All the over-the-top sanctimonious outrage against Israel is motivated out of Jew-hatred pure and simple. Jew hatred being a combination of fear and envy of the Jews. But i don’t blame you in a sense: no other people has a national project as radical, as controversial, as unlikely, as ambitious as the Zionist project! ”

“Judenrein” is appropriate since the Arabs are the true inheritors of Nazi-style anti-Semitism today — just as the Nazis sought to remove the jews from Europe, so the Arabs wish to remove them from the Middle East.”

“We are a People of Time and a People of Space, a People of the Land and of the Book. We are simply the Chosen People. Chosen to be at the center of history just as Zion is at the center of the world map. Chosen to always be in the spotlight — to be the protagonists in the tragicomedy of world history while other nations, religions, peoples, etc. come and go from the stage like bit players. The Chosen People are both the most ancient and the most modern of peoples, the most conservative and the most avant-garde, the most extreme and the most traditional, the most primitive and the most advanced.”

“(Besides, we’re rich and there’s nothing that inflames the envy of a gentile more than a rich Jew!)”

” A miraculous people who do not live by the normal laws governing the fate of nations but who have cleaved a different, unique path through history. So do not blame the anti-Semites for hating and fearing us the way they do. Simply pity them and never forget that you are the Light onto the Nations.”

“And yes, the war for the liberation of Zion is indeed a heroic one — pitting as it does the tiny country of the Jews against dozens of huge, oil-rich Arab nations , the descendents of the hoardes from the Arabian peninsula who invaded and occupied the Levant 1,300 years ago. There is no statute of limitation on the right of a people to reclaim and liberate their homeland — and this is what the Jews intend to do.

The true “occupation” in the Levant is being perpetrated by the Arabs.”

“The main reason for the anti-Israel sentiment in Europe and why the Europeans are so obsessed with the Palestinian issue: to assuage their guilt over the Holocaust — i.e. by turning the Jews from the “abused” into “abusers” the memory of the Holocaust is drowned-out by the Palestinian issue and the history of Europe’s victimization of the Jews is relativized and diminished by Israel’s perceived victimization of the Palestinians.”

This rather infantile blogger, who didn’t post much after the ditty, also extolled his own male attributes and claimed that women loved them. Tells you something about the level…..

Reading these posts, the very amusing “A song of Patriotic Prejudice”, by Flanders and Swann, just kept coming to mind. Reasoning with people like Deronda is impossible, but approaching them from a different angle is in my mind more effective. So I thought I’d do a skit on Deronda’s posts by replacing “English” with “Jewish” (since he is constantly going on about the Jews and not the Israelis).

It was called “A Song Of Patriotic Prejudice” and is a spoof on English jingoists (my country right-or-wrongers)

Listen to the original song here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

I took this text and modified it by adapting it to the sort of views Deronda constantly put forward. When I posted this, the Guardian banned me briefly, but after several jewish posters defended me and the context was explained to the moderators, my posting rights were reinstated.

In my post, with hindsight, I should have provided more context, and I have apologized to those whom I offended involuntarily. Jonathan Hoffman knows all this, but for some people, anything is grist to their mill.

Here is the original text of the Flanders and Swann ditty – read and compare :
A SONG OF PATRIOTIC PREJUDICE
By Michael Flanders and Donald Swann

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest.
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We’ve left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You’ll find he’s a stinker, as likely as not.

The Scotsman is mean, as we’re all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn’t got bishops to show him the way!
The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest.

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!
The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price

The Welshman’s dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!
And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!
The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.

And all the world over, each nation’s the same
They’ve simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they’ve won
And they practise beforehand which ruins the fun!
The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.

It’s not that they’re wicked or naturally bad
It’s knowing they’re foreign that makes them so mad!
For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael) and Me!

If, in your opinion, Deronda’s views are perfectly rational, if the word parody doesn’t exist in your dictionary, then there’s not much I can do about it, is there ? You’re just the way you are… But for those who try to look at things objectively, it should be clear that there is no hint of antisemitism here – just a parody of someone who was actually making the pro-Israel bloggers look like nutters, whatever the reasons he was doing it for (he claimed he was winding up left-wingers).

Finally, you can go through all my comments during the two years I blogged on CIF and see if you can find the slightest hint of antisemitism – Hoffman tried it, since like AIPAC he spends his entire life collecting and filing anything he can find that could possibly be construed as antisemitic, and this is all he could find. On the contrary I have regularly denounced true antisemitic posters – and he knows it too.

A final thought : if Deronda’s Lament is a hate post against Jewish people, then The Song of Patriotic Prejudice would also have to be a hate rag against English people, wouldn’t it ? As Swift’s parody “A Modest Proposal”, suggesting that Irish babies should be fattened to feed the English would have to be a hate rag against the Irish (though obviously, I am not comparing my little attempt at parody with Swift’s masterpiece in terms of literary quality).

Go away, you tedious little man!

On a similar front, yet different, Nick Cohen wrote a piece hitting nerves like a sewing machine. Basically saying that the Nazi attacker of the Holocaust Museum had a lot in common with Cif-ers.

….Had he not been a staff writer his post would have been deleted at the request of Berchmans, Dotty and perhaps even Ginger…..

..moving on…..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/14/james-von-brunn-far-right?commentpage=1

I have read Nick Cohen’s piece and needless to say I agree with him.

CiFMmzrm, you equate CiF with Der Sturmer. In answer to your question I believe that all the people you mention carry on the tradition, but I guess that Henry and Seaton are most to blame for the Nazi-like quality of it since they make the rules.

Yohoho

I may be tedious, but little ? Obviously we haven’t met…(not that I’m interested, I hasten to add)

So Nick Cohen thinks CIfers have a lot in common with Nazis does he ? So what’s he doing writing (and being paid) in a Nazi publication ? What about Petra then ? She’s also writing for Der Sturmer is she ? The mind boggles….

You know, in the end, the problem with some of you here is you spend all your time blogging away indignantly to each other, reading each other’s rants, getting all hot under the collar about this evil person and that blue meanie and you end up losing touch with the real world. It’s a sort of bubble you’ve created for yourselves. I think someone should do an academic study of Harry’s Place. Something about the pathological dangers of endogenous blogging.

Here’s a great work of Art by Goya, very appropriate here I reckon :
It’s called “The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters”
http://jacinet.johnabbott.qc.ca/webpages/departments/english/trecartin/goya_sleep_of_reason.jpg

Silverstein’s ability to overlook his own shortcomings and Jew-hatred is quite amazing. I may be wrong since his is a blog I do not follow, but simply stumble across like something unpleasant on CIF from time to time, but when has anyone seen him write a comment about, say , CAIR. On the topic of the shooting at the Holocaust museum, he exceeded himself:

Silverstein wrote:

Here is Von Brunn’s biography as presented at his own website (yes, of course a homicidal racist has his own website)

It turns out lots of unpleasant people have their own website where they proudly post their biographies and views. For example, there is his, called “Tikkun Olam” which specializes in writing nasty articles about Israel and its supporters, while decrying “hate speech” directed at – Silverstein, of course!!

Thus:

It is interesting that before someone commits murder you cant get a web host to do a thing about the hate they post to websites (weve had that problem with Masada2000 and its webhost, Dreamhost). Nor can you get the police to investigate their threats and other activities (just ask the Seattle Police Department and FBI about defenestration and genital mutilation threats sent to me which they refuse to investigate). But then after haters do strike and the damage is done, they rush to obliterate the killers identity and existence. A bit hypocritical I think.

Then the bit that Petra analyzes:

People like Abe Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, live for tragedies like this. You wait. …. Mark my words, it’s coming.

Well, I’ll also make a prediction:

One of these days, one of these anti-Semites or plain vanilla racists, will kill a Jew, a Black person or an Asian person – some person from a group the killer hated – and we will find that among the literature that person read and used to justify himself was “Tikkun Olam”

In the words of Silverstein:

You wait …Mark my words, it’s coming.

A bit hypocritical, I think.

“plain vanilla racists”

“vanilla racists” ! sounds as dodgy as the fuckers you’re supposedly concerned with.

Seriously, why are you still here?

I mean, it’s obvious that your excessive verbiage here fulfils some deep-seated need in you, but can’t you take yourself in hand or express it somewhere else – ie talk to yourself in the mirror or have a good old rant in your bedroom or even on CiF as I originally suggested?

You are lowering the tone of the place.

I see the war of words is still raging; I was busy with Bibi’s speech, so it’s only now that I could check back in.
Few observations, in case anyone still looks in here:
1) Armaros, many thanks for that excellent Nick Cohen article, which I hadn’t seen before; I read his longer piece on conspiracy nuts that HP linked to last week or so.
2) conspiracy nuts, gingerwaster — that brings me to you. As you know from our e-mail exchanges during my BatYam days, I’m perfectly aware that you believe your views are only based on reasoned argument; but I think I remember that I have told you early on that I know quite a few very reasonable, politically centrist, well-educated and intellectually quite sophisticated Israelis, i.e. native-born sabras, who would read a few pages of your posts and say: oh well, just another of those typical Europeans who don’t realize the antisemitic tropes in their arguments.
Your “Deronda’s lament” is actually a very good example. It’s not that I can’t understand that you would want to criticize some of the super-ardent Israel defenders. At the time you posted Deronda’s lament, I actually penned a response satirizing the “poor Palestinians!”-camp, because I thought that this would demonstrate best how offesive your little skid was. However, it was clear that it would have been deleted immediately, so I concluded that posting it wasn’t worth the trouble, and I don’t quite feel like searching now if I still have it — these are old stories. And, BTW, I was very surprised to read here that you had all sorts of clashes with Khartoumi on Cif; seems to have escaped me.

It also doesn’t make that much sense to go into our old settlment debate here; I think you misrepresent my views on that, but be that as it may, my main quarrel with you on this was again your almost mechanistic repetition of forever the same old theme: land-grab, sinister agenda to drive out the poor Palestinians etc. Since you wrote soooo much on the issue, do you know how much Westbank land is actually taken up by the settlement themselves, i.e. just the settlements proper, without the Jerusalem metropolitan area annexed for the time being by Israel? Do you know it, or if not, what’s your estimate?
Once you know the actual figure, you’ll see how ridiculous all this “land grab” stories are; moreover, the fact of the matter remains that the Gaza disengagment proved once again, if any further proof was needed, that Palestinian hostility and terrorism is NOT motivated by the settlements. But of course, for people with your views, who would have argued passionately how all the problems with Gaza were due to the settlements there, once the settlements were gone, it suddenly didn’t matter any more that they were gone — the settlements? Who cares!!!! There are all these many other outrages, what are a few settlements and a few thousand settlers — once they are removed, they retroactively are declared to never ever having been a problem worth mentioning…
BTW, in your place, I wouldn’t celebrate too much the Obama administration’s focus on settlements. You may have read that yesterday, Carter, yes, Jimmy of apartheid fame, said matter-of-factly while sitting in a Gush-Etzion home, that of course these settlement blocks near the Israeli border would stay with Israel in exchange for land swaps…
Moreover, the Obama administration knows very well that the settlement issue is primarily of symbolic value; i.e. they use it to establish their credentials as “honest broker”, but they also know what the Palestinians turned down in the Annapolis talks. You might want to take notice of Obama’s response to Netanyahu’s speech: important step forward – US commited to Israel’s security – Israel is Jewish state in the Jews’ historic homeland. What more could Bibi have asked for?

“..I got sick of the constantly poisonous atmosphere…” (this joker means on CiF!)

Now that and your comment about the haphazard moderation have to be a joke coming from you gingerwaster, particularly because you yourself added a lot to the poisoning and didn’t seem to mind all that much about the moderation when you were busy spreading your particular brand of “satire” about Jews.

Petra, it seems that this back-fired joker is trying to reinvent himself as a reasoned debater. He seems to forget that many of us have much longer and more accurate memories than he has.

Petra

“2) conspiracy nuts, gingerwaster — that brings me to you.”

We’ve gone over this one so many times I can hardly be bothered to answer it. Because I write that the publicly declared intentions of successive Israeli governments do not necessarily match those they are really pursuing (this in regard to the settlement agenda), you brand me a conspiracy theorist.

In some la-la land where politicians never lie and where governments always tell their people the truth, you would of course be right. But in the real world, anyone with a noggin of knowledge about politics is aware that governments and politicians have a tendency to lie to their citizens about why they carry out their policies.

Tony Blair claimed that those who thought the Irak invasion was motivated largely by oil interests were “conspiracy theorists”. Of course, today we know that his stated agenda – WMD, democracy, Al Qaeda – was a lie – and Alan Greenspan himself publicly admitted it in his memoirs : “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,”.

Nick Cohen, whose article you like so much (surprise surprise), himself claimed at the time that the invasion was an attempt to institute democracy in Irak and rambled on about conspiracy theorists – well today he has egg on his face. You’re not very different.

We have the facts : since 1973, around half a million Israeli settlers have moved into the West Bank and the area around East Jerusalem, and vast numbers of Palestinans have been forcibly removed from their homes and villages. Practically every Israeli government since that time has pursued settlement construction in these areas. Construction has often accelerated immediately after peace negotiations, in contradiction with stated and signed commitments. The progress has been steady and there has never been a freeze.

Settlement construction to accommodate the vast towns where many of these 500.000 settlers live in is not simply the erection of a few caravans on a hilltop, as you know, it involves major long-term urban planning, the building of a vast network of highways, industrial zones, water and power facilities, electricity grids, waste disposal sites, parks, etc…

So when someone like you claims, as you do here, that settlement construction started as a security issue and “got out of control”, a large pinch of salt is required. I’m trying to see it your way, let’s see : “Oops, my hand slipped – I just built a major highway network accross the West Bank” – “Damn, I tripped up and a vast dormitory town blossomed inadvertently” – “My goodness, where did that industrial zone suddenly spring from ? I never intended it”. “Who built that 10 storey police station over there in E1?”. You could do a Monty Python sketch with material like this.

The body of evidence that demonstrates that this was a long-range plan is overwhelming and the concrete proof that Israeli governments and administrations – even those claiming they did not support the policy – were fully involved has been provided by documents like the Sasson report, which is available for all to read.

So you can go on steadfastly denying the evidence, like your pal Nick Cohen, your narrative simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

“I remember that I have told you early on that I know quite a few very reasonable, politically centrist, well-educated and intellectually quite sophisticated Israelis, i.e. native-born sabras, who would read a few pages of your posts and say: oh well, just another of those typical Europeans who don’t realize the antisemitic tropes in their arguments.”

Ah yes, they would be similar to your pals the perfectly reasonable “social democrats” that hang around in Harry’s Place, right ? We have quite a few shining examples of their “educated, centrist and quite sophisticated” views right here on this blog. As I said, in the kingdom of the blind…..

“Your “Deronda’s lament” is actually a very good example. It’s not that I can’t understand that you would want to criticize some of the super-ardent Israel defenders. At the time you posted Deronda’s lament, I actually penned a response satirizing the “poor Palestinians!”-camp, because I thought that this would demonstrate best how offesive your little skid was. However, it was clear that it would have been deleted immediately, so I concluded that posting it wasn’t worth the trouble, and I don’t quite feel like searching now if I still have it — these are old stories. And, BTW, I was very surprised to read here that you had all sorts of clashes with Khartoumi on Cif; seems to have escaped me.”

I’d welcome a satire on the some of the zanier views of a number of so-called pro-Palestinian bloggers on CIF – satire is an excellent way to expose foolishness or perversity – and I’m not claiming in any way it doesn’t exist on both sides of the discussion – it certainly does (another reason why I got fed up with blogging). So be my guest Petra – if it’s appropriate, then you won’t find me criticizing you. As regards Deronda’s Lament, can you answer the following question : is Flanders and Swan’s Song of Patriotic Prejudice an attack on all Englishmen, or simply a parody of those with jingoist mindsets ?

If you answer the latter, then you cannot call Deronda’s Lament antisemitic, since it is entirely based on that song. I substituted “the Jews” for “the English”, because Deronda’s posts, as evidenced above, constantly mention “The Jews” and extol Jewish supremacy. The target is very clearly Deronda and like-minded bloggers – in no way is it an attack on Jewish people, or even on Zionists (quite a few of them denounced Deronda as a hate poster btw).

To say that you were surprised about my fights with Khartoumi surprises me just as much – our disagreements were pretty violent. You also witnessed on several occasions my attacks on posters whom I denounced as using antisemitic language or imagery on your threads and plenty of others – the fact you haven’t registered them says a lot about your own objectivity.

On the other hand, you have rarely denounced those on “your side” who come out regularly with racist or vile comments, though I challenged you to do so. For example, if you were a fair-minded person, you would denounce some of the outlandish rubbish that has been written by your supporters on this very thread, such as that LennyStone, TrueLeft and myself are actively trying to further the second Holocaust or that we are attempting to rehabilitate the Nazis. Do you have the guts to do so ? I really wonder. On the other hand, I have always done so, repeatedly and publicly. I don’t think you can say the same. You can claim to be fair and reasonable, but it’s your actions that matter, not your words. On that score therefore, I don’t think you have many lessons to give me.

“It also doesn’t make that much sense to go into our old settlment debate here; I think you misrepresent my views on that,”

Well perhaps, then it would be better, rather than using ad hominems every time you address my arguments, if you explained clearly what you meant and how I have misrepresented your views – I’m perfectly willing to listen and if I’m wrong, I’m not afraid to admit it.

“but be that as it may, my main quarrel with you on this was again your almost mechanistic repetition of forever the same old theme: land-grab, sinister agenda to drive out the poor Palestinians etc.”

Problem is Petra, it has actually occurred, in the real world. Thousands of Palestinians have been driven out of their homes and villages – I’m not inventing it. You’re not going to tell me it was an accident, are you ? They were in the way, basta. This kind of thing happens (and has happened throughout history) all over the world. Poor people or natives who are “in the way” are driven out of their homes, farms and villages. Israel has certainly not invented ethnic cleansing.

To add to the evidence, the Israeli government has implemented a consistent and systematic policy intended to encourage Jewish citizens to migrate to the West Bank. One of the tools used was to grant financial benefits and incentives to citizens. Are you prepared to argue that this was somehow an inconvenient accident too ? Admit it, it’s very hard to believe. It looks like a fish, it smells like a fish, it tastes like a fish, but it isn’t a fish ?

“Since you wrote soooo much on the issue, do you know how much Westbank land is actually taken up by the settlement themselves, i.e. just the settlements proper, without the Jerusalem metropolitan area annexed for the time being by Israel? Do you know it, or if not, what’s your estimate?

As about half the settlers are in the East Jerusalem metropolitan area, you have to include them in any assessment, annexed or not. You also have to include all the lands that have been “reserved”, large swathes of the Jordan Valley, that Israeli governments have stated they will only return after ten years (anyone believing that hasn’t been following the creeping colonization project very attentively), turned into nature parks forbidden to Palestinians, blocked by Israeli-only highways, fenced off, blocked by checkpoints. Currently, if my figures are correct, Palestinians only have access to about 40% of the West Bank. The settlement project is much more than just the dwellings where the settlers live.

You also have to take into account the fact that those settlements haven’t been placed where they are haphazardly – they are on the major West Bank acquifers, in particular the largest : Yarkon-Tanninim, and are designed to ensure that in any future deal, Israel retains control of the West Bank’s water resources (see Water in the Middle East, Karl David Hambright). Currently the West Bank’s water resources amount to around 600 million cubic meters. Of these, Israel takes around 500 million for itself and for the settlements, leaving Palestinians with just 80 million (source, Mid-East Web). The settlements have also been planned strategically to “ring-fence” Jerusalem and provide strategic depth. The plan is ongoing, as we have seen this year.

“Once you know the actual figure, you’ll see how ridiculous all this “land grab” stories are;”

Oh really ? So what do you make of this (source wikipedia) :
“In February 2008, The Civil Administration admitted that more than a third of West Bank settlements were built on private Palestinian land, originally seized by the IDF for ’security purposes’.[42] The unauthorized seizure of private Palestinian land has been defined by the Civil Administration itself in a recent case as ‘theft’.[43]”

Are you contradicting your own government Petra – I mean they just came out and plain stated they had been thieving ;-) ?

“moreover, the fact of the matter remains that the Gaza disengagment proved once again, if any further proof was needed, that Palestinian hostility and terrorism is NOT motivated by the settlements.”

Once again, you keep deliberately ignoring the fact that as I stated above, in the same year that 7000 settlers were removed from Gaza, around 14000 new settlers entered the West Bank. And you call this disengagement? If I put a pound in your left pocket, but then in the same movement take two out of your right pocket, would you believe I have no intention of robbing you ? All Gaza proved was that it was the West Bank that the Israeli government was interested in, not Gaza.

“BTW, in your place, I wouldn’t celebrate too much the Obama administration’s focus on settlements. You may have read that yesterday, Carter, yes, Jimmy of apartheid fame, said matter-of-factly while sitting in a Gush-Etzion home, that of course these settlement blocks near the Israeli border would stay with Israel in exchange for land swaps…”

Gosh, if even an “antisemite” like Carter says so……

“Moreover, the Obama administration knows very well that the settlement issue is primarily of symbolic value; i.e. they use it to establish their credentials as “honest broker”, but they also know what the Palestinians turned down in the Annapolis talks. You might want to take notice of Obama’s response to Netanyahu’s speech: important step forward – US commited to Israel’s security – Israel is Jewish state in the Jews’ historic homeland. What more could Bibi have asked for?”

Too early yet to know which way this will go. Is Obama playing ai-kido with Netanyahou ? We don’t know and we have little idea how much leverage he has or how far he’s determined to go. But it’s pretty obvious that Netanyahou’s conditions were not designed to be acceptable to Palestinians. It was a smart move – in a long tradition of feints and smoke-screen tactics – “let me make you an offer you are bound to refuse. Now I can scream at you for having done what I expected”. Nobody’s fooled by these tactics anymore though.

We shall have to wait and see for the moment.

Yohoho

You have a memory ? What of ? The only thing you’ve done so far is attack me. Engage in the argument, if you can. The motto of Harry’s Blog is “Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear”, isn’t it ? Well that’s exactly what I’m doing – so join in. If you don’t want to hear it or have nothing to say, then go play.

It’s just that it’s difficult to hear it from the likes of you waster!

As I said, you can prate on to your heart’s content here – where comment really is free – but that doesn’t turn you into any sort of person with reasonable opinions. Your sort of leopard doesn’t change its spots.

I have noticed that your posts are getting longer and longer; it’s as if you are building up a head of steam. But why are you inflicting this on us? Why not don your gas mask and HAZMAT suit and post on CiF or have they finally banned you?

Yohoho

This is just the continuation of an sort of stop-and-go debate Petra and I have been having for almost two years. It’s frustrating to do it this way – it would be far better face to face, but that’s kind of unlikely, as we live on different parts of the planet.

By the way, are you a former contributor to CIF ? You seem to be suggesting we have had run-ins with me at one time or other – I can’t remember any yohohos from those days.