Harry's Place

The really sad part is when you realize that the people of North Korea have nothing else to read beside this nausating rubbish.

The really really sad part is that there are people in the west who believe this rubbish and give support to the regime.

Korean Friendship Association = Kunts, Fuckwits and Assholes.

Like this lot, some of whom appear to be wearing Dr Evil suits.

Apparently, there is freedom of religious belief in North Korea.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/users/thai/slides/BiZFEB016.htm

http://www.korea-dpr.com/users/thai/slides/BiZFEB019.htm

No doubt Galloway will be visiting shortly.

What’s the big difference between the Norks and the Euroweenie social democrats, i.e. “progressives”?

Seriously!

Either you believe in radiant unicorns or you don’t.

David All says:

“The really sad part is when you realize that the people of North Korea have nothing else to read beside this nauseating rubbish.”

With all due respect, David All and Harry’s Place, the really sad part is that Harry’s Place is in the business of explaining North Korea to quondam political allies, not in the business of fighting North Korea.

My guess is that if Dear Leader and Brilliant Comrade succeed in blowing Tokyo off the map, Harry’s Place will devote several weeks to searching for Westerners to blame.

Biff – not true. We’d all love to do something about it if we could. I have never quite recovered from the fact that on 31st May 1999 I was within 200 yards of Kim Jong Il and didn’t know it, not to mention not having a sniper rifle with me.

One of the Irish Left’s untold stories is that of the Official IRA’s laundering of DPRK-produced superdollars.

Does anyone – a disillusioned Irish Leftie, for example – have any inside information or has the whole strange tale simply dropped down an oubliette of infinite depth?

“Biff – not true. We’d all love to do something about it if we could. I have never quite recovered from the fact that on 31st May 1999 I was within 200 yards of Kim Jong Il and didn’t know it, not to mention not having a sniper rifle with me.”

I seriously doubt you would have risked your life, most people also talk about how they almost approached the pretty lady.

Several years ago, whilst in a “dollar shop” in Beijing, I ran into a party of North Korean embassy staff gawping at the goods for sale there. Dressed in blue safari suits, they all wore Kim Il Sung badges (the Great Leader was still amongst the living at that time) literally the size of jam-jar lids. My Chinese companion told me that even though these were relatively privileged North Koreans they still wouldn’t have enough money on them to even buy a bag of sweets. Fascinated, I tried to make eye contact with them but not one of them obliged.

They consider they are at war with us. We should at least do them the privilege of taking them seriously.

As for communist groupuscles, no I don’t understand HP’s fascination with them. Hangover from student politics I guess. But such nutjobs are of no importance. The only important issue is will the USA blow an NK missile out of the sky as it should and will it begin interdicting ships going to and from NK as it is now (vaguely, by the UN) authorised to do.

Why do I suspect that “on the South coast of England” is a long-winded way of saying “Brighton”?

Every day I give thanks that the seaside resort I live in, presence of beaches and pier apart, nothing like that God-forsaken place.

“There are no surveillance cameras in North Korea!”

Why woud they need any?

actually, it is worth flicking through this sort of stuff because it invariably reveals the state capitalist nature of N Korean policies and the non-communist nature of the place and its leaders (ruling class actually).

Mind you, I don’t see the Great Leader’s (sic) works at my public library. The Beano is better reading anyway.

Ven

oh that is harsh. It has lots of nice things there….erm…like Tony Greenstein.

True horror is Sheerness on the Isle of Sheppey

They have a gift shop!!

http://www.korea-dpr.com/

“Why do I suspect that “on the South coast of England” is a long-winded way of saying “Brighton”?

Every day I give thanks that the seaside resort I live in, presence of beaches and pier apart, nothing like that God-forsaken place.”

*Crooks little finger and adopts superior tone* Hove, actually.

Brighton truly is an overcrowded cesspit, full of obnoxious bohemians and fake ‘artists’ although its still no hastings!

“actually, it is worth flicking through this sort of stuff because it invariably reveals the state capitalist nature of N Korean policies and the non-communist nature of the place and its leaders (ruling class actually).”

Zzzzzz….

One who is so deluded, shouldn’t devote himself to politics. Do something less dangerous, like collecting stamps, NKPR-gray.

Fabian

oh, I’m sorry if pointing out a fact conflicts with your erroneous worldview.

As an example, try reading Mao:

“Since Chinese society is colonial, semi-colonial and semi-feudal, since the principal enemies of the Chinese revolution are imperialism and feudalism, since the tasks of the revolution are to overthrow these two enemies by means of a national and democratic revolution in which the bourgeoisie sometimes takes part, and since the edge of the revolution is directed against imperialism and feudalism and not against capitalism and capitalist private property in general even if the big bourgeoisie betrays the revolution and becomes its enemy — since all this is true, the character of the Chinese revolution at the present stage is not proletarian-socialist but bourgeois-democratic….

However, it is not at all surprising but entirely to be expected that a capitalist economy will develop to a certain extent within Chinese society with the sweeping away of the obstacles to the development of capitalism after the victory of the revolution, since the purpose of the Chinese revolution at the present stage is to change the existing colonial, semi-colonial and semi-feudal state of society, i.e., to strive for the completion of the new-democratic revolution. A certain degree of capitalist development will be an inevitable result of the victory of the democratic revolution in economically backward China.”

You will find many such statements in the writings of Mao. China did indeed sweep away feudal relations and develop capitalism after 1949. Anno 2009, China is one of the most powerful capitalist economies in the world.

ps. One more for Fabian

“The present-day capitalist economy in China is a capitalist economy which for the most part is under the control of the People’s Government and which is linked with the state-owned socialist economy in various forms and supervised by the workers. It is not an ordinary but a particular kind of capitalist economy, namely, a state-capitalist economy of a new type. It exists not chiefly to make profits for the capitalists but to meet the needs of the people and the state.

True, a share of the profits produced by the workers goes to the capitalists, but that is only a small part, about one quarter, of the total. The remaining three quarters are produced for the workers (in the form of the welfare fund), for the state (in the form of income tax) and for expanding productive capacity (a small part of which produces profits for the capitalists). Therefore, this state-capitalist economy of a new type takes on a socialist character to a very great extent and benefits the workers and the state.”

Given the paucity of info that comes out of North Korea, the official statements and writings are in fact not a bad source to discover what is happening, provided you are able to read between the lines and don’t fall for the NK=Communism claptrap

sorry might be being a bit dense here but was that last bit yours or was it from Mao? Either way do you know if it is in any way true ?(I’m genuinely curious!) Thanks.

Oi – Hands off the people of Hastings….

(although I actually live in St Leonards-on-Sea)

To be fair I’m not as familiar with Hastings just seem to have had a disproportionately large number of bad experiences there!

Chas

i am not sure what you mean; the Mao quotes are from the collected works put on marxism.org.

Mao stated quite bluntly that they (the Chinese Communist Party) wanted to build state capitalism, although it was in terms of a special kind of state capitalism and supposedly to benefit the working class.

I am fairly certain a reading of Kim’s writings might offer similar passages, if given the proper scrutiny.

thanks for the info, i was under the impression that it was (primarily) Deng Xiaopings reforms which had turned China into a ’state capitalist’ state but I dont know very much about China at all so this is mostly something just vaugely picked up in reading etc. Do you think there is any evidence that Mao was trying to create this kind of a state (aside from saying/writing that he wanted to)?

Chas

obviously, what was said and what was done can be completely different things. Karl Marx mentioned that you should look at what happens, rather than relying on what people said they were doing – it is an important historical point, given most HP readers say Russia was communist, end of story!

For Lenin in 1917, it was a proletarian revolution (led by the Bolshevik vanguard), ushering in Communism, but by 1918 he was stating explicitly that the Russians had to learn from the organisation of the German War Economy, hence his statement (paraphrasing): if Russia could create state capitalism in six months it would be a step forward.

The history of China from 1949 on is, at times, hard to follow because the Chinese Communist Party presents itself as a monolith – the truth is the CCP leaders are a ruling class with conflicting (internal) interests. Similar in ways to the Nomenklatura of Soviet Russia. Naturally, it is nigh-on impossible to get any reliable info from North Korea because of the dictatorship and bans on reporters, visitors, etc.

China from 1949 did indeed develop state capitalism, with political power in the hands of the Communist Party dictatorship, whose members live privileged lives.

i saw one of those pro-N. Korea posters in Brighton a few weeks ago!

Did you know Kim Jong Il wrote a book called “The Art of the Cinema”? The “customer reviews” at Amazon are wonderful.

cheers spgb gray, just out of interest do you believe that Russia failed to become truly communist (if you do believe that) because not enough control was ceded to the people as a whole (i might be wrong but im sure i read somewhere that Marx only mentioned the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ once and then not neccessarily in the sense that Lenin applied the term) or for a different reason. I dont really
know a lot about Russia but as i understand it (bearing in mind that i havent really read Marx in his own words bar the manifesto) Marx thought that the way to a communist society was simply a massive increase in democracy whereas in all the revolutions i can think of (Russia, France) this has begun to happen but has been crushed before it could fully develop by the government of the day. Anyway sorry that rambled on a bit but basically Im just wondering whether you think the Russian revolution was doomed from the start? cheers!

Gene, did you know that Kim Jong Il had also written a book entitled: “Kim Jong Il on the Art of Opera: Talk to Creative Workers in the Field of Art and Literature, September 4-6, 1974″?

According to Amazon the two books are frequently bought together.

Chas

the Russian Revolution was never going to result in socialism for a number of (related) reasons: a backward, semi-feudal economy; a mass of the population were peasants who wanted peace and land, not socialism; Russia was isolated; socialism cannot be established by a minority, a vanguard.

The Dictatorship of the Proletariat means the rule of a class or the capture of political power (the state) by the working class, during the abolition of capitalism and establishment of socialism and not the rule of an individual or a party. Socialism does indeed mean creating greater democracy; apart from freedoms of speech and such, there is also the fundamental freedom of free access to what one needs (food, water, etc) to live.

So do you think that socialism/communism could be created without this ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ phase or do you believe that it is neccessary in order to change the fundamental ideology of society? Also what form is this dictatorship supposed to take (ie is it nonviolent or repressive) and do you define working class by their income or by their lack of access to the means of production? sorry for all the questions i dont know much about Lenin/Marx but have studied the French revolution quite a lot at university and I believe that in both cases the failure to implement full democracy (i believe the Bolsheviks allowed one election but subsequently closed the parliament after they didnt get a majority) meant that some sort of dictatorship was inevitable although in a way, with the French revolution, i can see how the Parisian electors probably were more enlightened than the peasants (dont know if this is comparable to Russia) and so full democracy would probably have lead back to aristocracy and absolute monarchy. Again sorry for all the questions am just curious as i do believe the current world economy is far from ideal but im not sure whether a socialist/communist system could work in practice if it needs to curtail democracy and peoples fundamental rights in order to establish itself. Cheers!

And yes, Gene, those reviews of Kim Jong Il’s books are indeed classical.

Chas

the party I belong to (the Socialist Party of Great Britain) has a lot of material on-line, discussing your questions, so I’ll point you in that direction
http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb

A quick answer is that we argue the majority of the working class (the great majority in society) must understand and desire socialism, organise politically and democratically and can use the vote and elections in order to establish socialism. Therefore, a socialist revolution can be peaceful. Democracy is an integral part and indeed essential for socialism.

Ask the SPGB how they will organise production. That’s always good for a laugh.

Ask them what policy they advocated in June 1940.

Ask them how disputes between a national parliament and workers’ councils would be resolved.

SPGB is essentially for people who want to believe in full on socialism without having to get their skulls cracked in street violence.

If by some miracle the SPGB were ever to gain political power through the ballot box I am sure the membership would be appalled and thoroughly put out.

Field

once again you are inventing positions we don’t hold. The SPGB is not going to run production; it is not out to win political power either.

It puts the case that a socialist working class can change society using the ballot box. It is precisely because the working class should not take on the forces of the state in street battles and from the barricades that we say the state and armed forces must be captured via a political process. As it happens, Marx and Engels were already making that argument in 1880 and on. The working class had begun to win the franchise everywhere; a process that could be said to have been completed with votes for women.

“Mao stated quite bluntly that they (the Chinese Communist Party) wanted to build state capitalism” (gray)

“obviously, what was said and what was done can be completely different things. Karl Marx mentioned that you should look at what happens, rather than relying on what people said they were doing ” (gray, again, somewhat incongruosly)

It was you NKPR-Gray who explained what is happening in 2009- North Korea by a writing by Mao in 1939!!!!

And Mao was writing about China!!!

Talking about completely deluded individuals.