Harry's Place

Has someone been assaulting this Bros tribute band?

Good post, however, the last link doesn’t seem to work.

Unless of course that is the point…

Fixed – sorry!

I think one of them might be black, incidentally.

What’s the black lad doing there? lol

I count 2 black lads there…just seems more like a bunch of nationalist footy lads rather than the NF variety.

Now if only Mr. Pitt could be as sensible the other 99 percent of the time…

Cockney wankers

Why is at least one of these “proud nationalists” wearing a football shirt emblazoned with words “Fly Emirates”?

“Why is at least one of these “proud nationalists” wearing a football shirt emblazoned with words “Fly Emirates”?”

Gooners are known to be thick.

At least one amusing post from that prat Bob Pitt. Not that it balances out all the crap he writes but at least amusing, most of the humour came from just quoting the silly drivel from peabrain Lionhearts blog.

I think only one guy had an Arsenal shirt on so the title is a bit dodgy from David T. This firm of lads don’t sound too cockney to me so Sean’s comment is way out of order too. Since when are lads from Luton Cockneys?

They seem to be radicalised by the Luton events a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8GN_40IA5o&feature=channel

Truly hilarious.

Ing..gur..land ing..gur..land ing..gur..land.

Are they singing jingle bell, jingle bell, jingle be-ell?

There’s maybe something wrong with me but I don’t get it.

Its obviously a lawful march and had anything racist been chanted then I’m sure there would have been arrests.

To me its no different from those who protested against our troops coming home, A Stop The War march with its polygot of causes or a Motoons protest.

“We want our country back”, doesn’t have to be a racist chant. Isn’t it an anti-immigration chant about the changing nature of local communities – the factor which brought an increase in the BNP vote.

The protestors were chanting patriotically and I see nothing wrong with being a patriot for your country – although, most definitely, it shouldn’t mean exclusion of the BNP kind.

Yes, from our lofty intellectual heights we can look down on the brain-cell challenged, use my body rather than my brain load of skinheads and beer processing morons. But we can articulate our fears and beliefs in blogs and they probably can’t.

I hate these people and don’t want to see the likes of them on the streets or exhibit direct racism. We have to accept that there was a reason for the rise of the BNP and it is THAT which needs fixing such that the 1m DON’T feel they have “lost their country”.

Also, they chanted “Terrorists Out!”. Is that something we don’t share? Its ambiguous. Were they implying that the people of Whitechapel are all terrorists or that the community of Whitechapel might harbour those of a terrorist persuasion?

Its possible for arguments about them either side to synthesise what we think they mean.

I hate them – especially the Arsenal supporters!

The video is titled “Anti-Extremist protest throught Whitechapel, London”. That must be a title by one of the protestors who filmed it.

I assume its Islamist Extremism that they mean. I reiterate, if its lawful in a Stop The War protest to march and protest against the UK, USA & Israel military intervention then isn’t it acceptable to march against extremism?

The point might be that they are marching through Whitechapel which has a large Muslim population. A Stop The War protest goes through London, the seat of power of the UK Govt and embassies of the USA and Israel.

I’ll publish and be damned!

Bengali in platforms
He only wants to embrace your culture
And to be your friend forever
Forever

Bengali, Bengali
Bengali, Bengali
Oh, shelve your Western plans
And understand
That life is hard enough when you belong here

Paul Ray is living on the front line. It’s damn easy for us to judge, but harder for us to walk a mile in his shoes.

“Are these not the most pathetic bunch of amateur fascists I have ever seen?”

Why? Because they have short hair and working class accents?

I am glad that the working class are standing up against the creeping Islamification of England. With a political correct government racked with white guilt they may just be our last line of defence.

I don’t see hoards of middle class Islingtonians taking to the streets in protest and without protest, our government will not change.

Are they fascists for “wanting our country back”? Well if they are, then count me in to….and while you’re at it, please explain to me how and why Anjem Choudary, Hizb Ut Tahrir, Azzam Tammimi et al are able to freely operate here.

I am fed up losing. We need the energy & anger that these kids have.

We need to get up off our arses and DO SOMETHING.

By the way – for those that don’t get it, “Your Arsenal” is the name of a Morrissey album, so a comment on the affiliation of the crowd.

Morrissey was also blighted with accusations of racism, due to his patriotism.

Cute though!

Uppty, I don’t know enough of your core politics to say that I support YOU but I do agree with the comments you made above (but not your poem).

Anjem Choudray is British and says what he likes and its mainly offensive towards Brits and non-Muslims. So, why shouldn’t these guys have THEIR say.

Connecting with Stop The War it occurs to me that some of these guys are the sort who sign up for soldiering and of whom we are proud of when they fight for the country – whether we agree with the political decisions to send them to fight or not.

Even Mosely’s march through the East End was lawful (unfortunately). My father went to fight Mosely’s fascists.

Right to protest must be upheld but NOT a right to breach the peace while doing it.

Spectrum – the poem was a different Morrissey song (and another reason why he was branded a racist).

I posted those words for David T. I’m sure he knows why.

It’s okay to adopt a tone of patrician derisiveness and to position it as a sort of Cable Street redux – which is obviously bullshit, btw. But public demonstrations against islamism (essentially the point here) are quite reasonable – in fact, imho there hasn’t been enough of them, given the actual demonstrable threat against the UK. That they are vulgar working class cannon-fodder males and not dangly earringed student union not-in-my-namers is also remarkable on any demo… and as the Whitechapel Mosque is carving up the council in Tower Hamlets into a jamaat clone (cf Private Eye) it seems apposite to ‘want your country back’ – esp in an area that has almost entirely changed its composition in two generations.

Many of them look to be teenagers. Dont think they are out-and-out fascists, but they are clearly right wing football casual (or probably wanabee casuals as most wouldnt be caught dead on a political march) and I suspect most are likely racist and almost certainly islamophobic (whatever that means). The presence of the black guys shows that they are not proper fascists but not that they are racist, I have witnessed anti-asian racist actions by black people before.

Wanting “their country” back sounds like wanting the Bangladheshis/Bengalis out of the east eand which sounds pretty close to fascism to me.

Marching through Whitechapel in that aggressive manner was clearly a deliberate provocation. Aiming to scare the locals or possibly trying to provoke a ruck with some of the local Bengali-British lads (who I think would probably have had them for breakfast).

Imagine them getting into your carriage on the tube! Reminds me when a bunch of Cardiff City casuals got on my tube at Liverpoold Street. v.scary.

To be fair to Arsen@l whilst they certainly have their racist supports they are probably the least racist or overtly racially hostile football fans in the country.

As for the comment about cockneys – just ignorant provincialism. There is more racism in the suburbs, and in parts of the north, than in London.

Cute though!

Morrissey would agree.

‘For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ ‘Chuck him out, the brute!’,
But it#s ‘Saviour of ‘is country’ when the guns begin to shoot.’.

‘Tommy Atkins’ Rudyard Kipling.

Of-course Bob Pitt’s going to be derisive about such lads, he’s in favour of the Islamification of the West. No doubt he thinks he’s on to a nice little earner.

The videos have been posted by Paul Ray, a blogger who calls himself “Lionheart” and who has offered qualified support for the BNP (he thinks that God is using the party, and that its racism will disappear). The heavy police presence is doubtless due to the recent disturbances in Luton.

On his blog, Ray writes that:

We live in a new age, with God doing a new thing on the Earth with His people who are willing to defend Christendom from the hordes of savages in the embodiment of ‘religious moslems’, who have emerged on our land from their Islamic hell holes

I’ve been following the story for some time – most recently here and here.

And the Arsenal team this afternoon is errrr……….

It’s not the right to protest that I was challenging, it was the snobby disdain that these particular protesters attract from liberal bloggers – simply because they are white, working class and sing football songs.

I say good luck to them. The rest of us should be joining them. We are facing the same way.

Maybe some of them are racists. Maybe some people here are racist too.

The point is, the demonstration wasn’t about race, it was about reclaiming our country from extremists.

Where’s the Harry’s Place march against extremism?

I hate it that some of us look down on these people. We are not in their position. If we were living in Bury Park and seeing non-Muslims being driven out of their homes, seeing violent extremist gangs handing out Al Muhajiroun leaflets by day and selling heroin by night and hurling insults at our soldiers, we might feel tempted to take to the streets.

But since our protest only consists of preaching to the choir on blogs, I don’t think it’s our place to criticise.

Besides – we should clean up our backyard. As (generalising) “left-of-centre liberal progressives”, we should be concentrating our ire on the scumbags in our own camp – the sort of lefties who lionise terrorists – rather than slamming ordinary lads who dare to protest against extremists.

” we should be concentrating our ire on the scumbags in our own camp – the sort of lefties who lionise terrorists – rather than slamming ordinary lads who dare to protest against extremists.”

We do

These are a bunch of hooligans, marching through Whitechapel, singing No Surrender and other far right songs.

i prefer this type of lad to the average islingtonian. by far. why they are deemed fascist escapes me.

whitechapel stinks

David, yes – they look & sound like hooligans – but working class, inner city white kids rarely look like Talulah Gosh fans, these days.

And as long as their attentions are focused on Islamofascists, I have no problem with them. Quite the reverse.

“Islingtonian” – are they bruchetta eating Guardian readers by any chance?

I bet you’ve never been to Islington.

It used to be pretty solidly working class and apart from a few very posh enclaves still has plenty of working class and ever underclass areas and estates (incidentally some of them are unusally white working class for inner London)

I remember talking to one of the Council of Ex-Muslims organising the recent demo against sharia law. They were trying to make the campaign as diverse as possible (i.e. so that people from all sorts of backgrounds would feel welcome participating in it) whilst at the same time obviously had to make sure that racist thugs were kept far away from it. It is a difficult one.

To the eager defenders of this particular ‘protest’, the people who “prefer this type of lad” (hmm): do you really think marches that are intended to intimidate the population around them are the way to go?

Do you think a Muslim who shares anti-Al Muhajiroun sentiments would have felt welcome amongst this crowd?

Precisely – even if these weren’t a rabble of hooligans, exactly what purpose is served by a march like this, other than to alienate and terrify the local population. Remember, we’re talking here about people who live in Whitechapel who are in many cases our friends and comrades.

PS: Amelia Fletcher, the lead singer of Tallulah Gosh is now the Chief Economist at the Office of Fair Trading.

Islington is something like the 6th most deprived borough in the UK.

Methinks Albert is talking out of his arse.

Hawk – my grandparents lived in Manor House, my girlfriend lived near the Angel and I have a season ticket to the Arsenal.

I’m well acquainted with Islington.

I believe that the same argument as Spectrum’s was used by the BUF when they marched through the East End.
At that time, many “English” people thought Jews to be alien and a threat to the UK.
Part of their limited success was smoothed by those who thought that, a. the fascists were presenting a “legitimate” point of view, but with whom such respectable people thought a little crude; and, b. was no different than the Communists and Trade Unionists who opposed them.
As to the idea that they are articulating “real” concerns, this just buys into the myth that “England” is losing “its” “culture” – whatever that is!
By buying into that crap and refusing to see the true causes of racism, Spectrum is doing no more than fanning the flames of racism whilst, like all good “respectable” people, denying his responsibility for the violence it produces whist at the same time projecting its causes onto the targets of his violence. Now, that truly is the product of British middle-class “culture” – Surrey at its best!

The question is, I guess, why Spectrum is so fearful of people who live in poverty and who just try to get on the best they can?

“We want Pakis out”
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman’s rallying cry! Don’t these football hooligans know that the only people to “get Pakis out” of their country are the Bangladeshis?

“exactly what purpose is served by a march like this, other than to alienate and terrify the local population.”

It’s sad and regretable if innocent people are intimidated, but it puts the onus on us to join these marches. If a greater variety of people got involved, then anti-extremists in the local community would join the march too.

And if enough people demonstrate, then the government might feel less inhibited about acting on extremism.

and Amelia is a godess

“I have a season ticket to the Arsenal”

F@ck off, back to south London ;o)

@England is losing it#s culture. Whatever that is’. Yes, quite. They are white, they are ignorant, they are lowerclass, they must be scum.

Hey Hawk – Isn’t it about time you started talking about next season’s top 4 slot?

“Where’s the Harry’s Place march against extremism?”

Fair point. My old band once supported Tallulah Gosh. We weren’t great shakes either….

They are all blokes oozing aggression, they are seemingly bent on intimidating locals, some are covering their faces, they must be fine upstanding patriots. Although I wouldn’t want my daughter to marry one.

Er, guys, this is the Blair youth division of the Labour party. Go easy on them.

“It’s sad and regretable if innocent people are intimidated, but it puts the onus on us to join these marches. If a greater variety of people got involved, then anti-extremists in the local community would join the march too.”

Well, you could start from where we’ve started – that is, by forming alliances with antifascists from all cultural backgrounds, and organising against the fash in a smart way.

Or you could march through a Bangladeshi area, shouting “No Surrender”.

“Cute though!

Morrissey would agree.”

The Moz and I do seem to share similar tastes in several areas. I am still a big fan (although the music has dropped off a bit in recent years IMO) but as a teenager in a South Manchester suburb I did my O levels to the Smiths and it is an indelible part of my childhood and young adulthood.

I suppose the Youtube clip rather reminds me of Suedehead:
“You had to sneak into my room
‘just’ to read my diary
“It was just to see, just to see”
(All the things you knew I’d written about you…)”

or perhaps “I want the one I can’t have”:

“On the day that your mentality
Decides to try to catch up with your biology

Come round …
‘Cause I want the one I can’t have
And it’s driving me mad
It’s all over, all over, all over my face”

B xx

This time we will definitely be overtaking Arsen@l and finishing top 3! Or maybe we’ll finish 11th and get to the semi finals of the Carling Cup

Sue – England is not losing its culture. There have been brown muslims in those parts of east London for decades – Brick Lane is part of English culture, just like curry, pubs, fish and chips, tabloid jounrnalism and alcohol fuelled violence.

I do, however, think there there is a tendency amongst some middle class lefties and progressives to look down on, or even hate the white working class and underclass / “chavs”whilst making excuses for the reactionary views or anti-social behaviour of non-whites from a similar backgrounsd. I am strongly against this tendency and the book “the likes of us”, although I dont agree with all of it, expresses this point quite well.

We’re speaking about ordinary people, not community organisers. A bunch of inner-city kids who are pissed off and have taken to the streets. Sure it’s flawed, but the motivation and energy is right.

They need our support with what they’ve started. We should be joining them.

If Harry’s Place has started “forming alliances with antifascists from all cultural backgrounds”, that’s great – but where’s the action. Where’s our march?

I’d fucking join it. In my Arsenal top. And Sarah Records haircut.

Hawk – do you have any special plans to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of the last time Spurs won the league?

It’s only a couple of years away.

I’m thinking an open top bus up the Seven Sisters road, with “Fifty Years…Fifty Fucking Years!” on the side.

;-)

Left-Liberal Hawk: I was being sarcastic. yes, there have been Indian and Indianish people in the East End for decades. I used to live in Bow and I am aware of this. I remember back in the 70’s going on anti-fascist demos in Brick Lane and we always ended up in the Clifton or the Nazrul curry house. In those days they had formica topped tables and were none too smart; I notice that they have been gentrified since then. However, as was alluded to above, Private Eye has documented the rapacious control of Tower Hamlets by the council, there has always been the rise and fall of Respect as well. I get angry as well when people try to claim there is no such thing as ‘English’ culture. What time you get out of bed, what you have for breakfast, if you have a job, how you travel to it, what clothes you put on these are all CULTURAL. Then, there are the broader things such as relations between sexes, classes, obligations, religion, food, behaviour to family and strangers etc etc. I think you will find that there are differences between various groups on these. But it all comes down to ‘What do they of England know, Who only England know?’. Either that, or a deliberate undermining of social solidarity.

Sue R: absolutely right. Those who spout lines like “…English culture – whatever that is” would never dream of saying the same about the Scottish, Irish or Welsh, but somehow it’s an acceptable leftist attitude to treat the indigenous English as a non-people.

Good luck to these lads. I hope we see more demonstrations like this. And if local muslims feel alenated and intimidated by such actions, then tough shit. It’ll give them a taste of how many of us feel whenever the islamist terror-supporters and their lefty fellow-travellers take to the streets.

A bunch of inner-city kids who are pissed off and have taken to the streets. Sure it’s flawed, but the motivation and energy is right

It’s a bunch of hoodies and their dads being silly twits. If they want to join the fight against Islamists then they should join the army, not shout at dark looking people in the high street.

“A bunch of inner-city kids who are pissed off and have taken to the streets.”

You give them too much credit. They are a bunch of pretend football hooligans. They aren’t even on a par with the BNP. There’s only a dozen of them, so they aren’t even a firm. If the “Pakis” were to leave Bethnal Green, does anyone think that whites will want to live there? The area has some of the worst housing conditions in Europe. The local population is by no means privileged by the system. If these “deprived inner-city youth” – in reality, probably some skunk-smokers from Luton – put their collective brain cell into action and took a look around Whitechapel, which lies in the shadow of the City, maybe they would think that the Bengali community was also not doing too well and maybe they would think about why it is that poverty is colour-blind. I doubt these kids will. I just hope they grow up some day and don’t waste their lives like this.

Sue R: I don’t know what Englishness is and neither do I care. You can feel proud about what you conceive of as English and I respect that. The problem is forcing that notion on others. Underlying all conceptions of nationhood is an implicit ideological interpretation, be it multi-culturalism or “Ingland for the Inglish” (a bit of graffiti I saw in Bethnal Green once). If people want to believe that being English means being white, then they are entitled to their belief. What they cannot be allowed to do is try to intimidate and harass non-white people out of the country.

“but where’s the action. Where’s our march?
I’d fucking join it”

White riot – I wanna riot
White riot – a riot of my own

Dan: Not everyone has a multinational background like you and many of the posters who post here. We can’t disappear to Calcutta, Tel Aviv or Chicago when the going gets tough. We don’t have family estates with serfs in peasant countries. I was reading Juan Cole’s site the otehr day. He advises the Kurds to forget about a homeland and migrate to the south of Iraq because their oilfields are clapped out. They should, he says, join in with the multinational Gulf. Who’s benefit does globalization work for? My own view is that the workers and peasants in the former colonial countries need to have a revoltion and kick out the parasitic landlords and factory owners, that way they will raise living standards for everyone in those countries and also global warming can be tackled. It’s not going to happen though is it, because the individual solution of escape to Europe beckons too many people. Let’s hope Iran leads the way.

Yeah, but my mates include Bengalis who are Smiths fans. What could be more British than than?

These kids aren’t “the working class”. They’re yobbos.

Well David they could be working class yobbos. I have some address underclass, working class, lower middle class, upple middle class and upper class yobbos in my time. Although football hooligans tend to fall into the first three catgories.

“some address” should read “come accross” – lack of sleep

“Sue R: absolutely right. Those who spout lines like “…English culture – whatever that is” would never dream of saying the same about the Scottish, Irish or Welsh, but somehow it’s an acceptable leftist attitude to treat the indigenous English as a non-people.”…

Yes. England is a rich diverse multi-cultural country made up of many different cultural identities, that we all must celebrate…..(except of course the English who apparently don’t have one).
Bah!…..You couldn’t make it up if you tried.

Good luck to these lads. I hope we see more demonstrations like this. And if local muslims feel alenated and intimidated by such actions, then tough shit. It’ll give them a taste of how many of us feel whenever the islamist terror-supporters and their lefty fellow-travellers take to the streets.

Well then tough guy, I assume you’ll be joining this plucky youung patriots on their next march

English culture surely has to exist if it is possible to force it onto someone?:-))

If that someone doesn’t want it, it must be because they feel attached to what they already have. Which seems to indicate cultures do exist and other people take pride in them – ‘identifying’ is a very human trait.

@Jake

well i did have a thorough look at islington walking paths as suggested by various books. i think u all know what i mean when i say ‘islingtonian’ and yes i prefer these “yobbos” to khuffya-wearing, guardian-reading organic humus-eating islingtonians any time

they’re quite normal for their age and background and deffo not as twisted and hypocrite and complacent as aforementioned islingtonian wanna-be-do-gooder scum

Hardly a cogent political platform….

But these things are happening more frequently – there was a similar event in Luton. Young British lads – white and black – who are encouraged to see Islam as the enemy within.

They do look utterly hopeless though.

@ amused

as soon as anyone talks about protesting or raising tehrir voice, tis website belittles them as ‘tough guy’ or whatnot

what have u ever achieved? nobody even knows you, as opposed to similar websites on the continent

It’s not the right to protest that I was challenging, it was the snobby disdain that these particular protesters attract from liberal bloggers – simply because they are white, working class and sing football songs.

Why would you march through Bethnal Green chanting “Keep St. George in my heart keep me English/No Surrender to the IRA” if you were anything other than racist numpty?

I’m white, working class and sing lots of football songs, so fuck right off with your suggestion that its these charactersitics that generate the sneers. I just don’t care much for racist, numbskull c*nts, is all.

Its a shame that opposition to the IRA was prioritised by the far right. The correct policy of the British government, Labour and Tory, was of course “no surrender”. One can hate the anti-democractic, romantic nationalism and murerousness of the IRA without being at all right wing. Indeed you can sympathise with some of the progressive and centre-left versions of Unionism and Loyalism without being right wing nationalist.

“English culture surely has to exist if it is possible to force it onto someone”

Ideas of what is English culture can be forced upon people, but I’ve yet to see any consensus on what English culture is. It only really matters to those who want to use Englishness to advance a particular cause or ideology. Despite the belief among some that the English are uniquely oppressed, this debate is not something that is peculiar to England. Personally, I’d rather people be allowed to identify themselves however they wish without being made to feel guilty or ashamed and without using such identification as a weapon against those they perceive as different.

If someone wants to identify themselves, first and foremost, as a follower of a religion ahead of being a member of a nation then they should be allowed to do so. If they use that religion to threaten or intimidate others, then they should be stopped. Simple as that. Likewise, these lads should be allowed to shout “Engerland” wherever they want, but if they start shouting “Pakis out” in an area full of Pakis then if the police are not there to protect them they should not be surprised when a Paki gives them a shove and they graze their soft little hand. Ditto Anjum Choudhury’s silly little protest in Luton.

“Indeed you can sympathise with some of the progressive and centre-left versions of Unionism and Loyalism without being right wing nationalist.”

not at all sure if i fancy this webiste….wtf is all this lofty bollox about?

yeah…this is a lofty website

Get rid of the Church of England, of which everyone is default a member, and then get rid of ‘Englishness’. Is that the plan? Funny isn’t it, the bengalis never took Dan’s approach when they were killing Pakistanis. Interestingly, white/english people are not supposed to feel threatened by ‘in your face’ display of ‘Pakistaniness’ or Nigerianess’ but those groups are supposed to feel intimidated by the converse. Can someone here define what they mean by ‘Englishness’ by the way? I would be interested to know how people characterise it?

English culture -pubs, bitter (beer), cricket matches, English football matches, lots of good music, bacon and eggs, binge drinking, eccentricity, support for the underdog, apolitical, non-extremist, politeness (but not when binging drinking) fighting, football hooligan casual culture (the Dutch, Italians, and to a lesser extent Turks and Argentinians have all adopted much of this but it was English and has been exported); wet bank holiday weekends, casual zenophobia particularly regarding the French. Not sure what it adds up to?

But these are all epiphenomena, they are not essences. Or do you think there are no essences? They also mutate over time and are not unique to England. I don’t like beer, but then I am not fully English, but tehre are many English people who don’t drink beer (ie Methodists). The hooligan culture? What are called ’street gangs’ in other cultures you mean? Politeness? I don’t think so. if you want politeness, you have to go to America, where everyone calls each other ’sir’ (even to the ladies). Fighting? Our last civil war was 400 years ago. Casual zenophobia? Yes, it’s well known that the white ‘race’ is the only one that dislikes people who don’t look like itself. Something to do with imperialism, apparently. As for pubs, sadly 40 a day are closing at the moment due to restrictive trade practices.

Indeed you can sympathise with some of the progressive and centre-left versions of Unionism and Loyalism without being right wing nationalist.

I’d like to hear more about this centre-left, progressive version of Loyalism. Just like the youths in a video, I’m sure it’s a much misunderstood phenomenon.

There’s a difference between thinking the IRA ought not have been surrendered to and nearly 10 years after the GFA marching through an immigrant area of east London chanting to that effect..or indeed singing the same at an England football match against, um, Kazakhstan.

It gives lie to the claim that there is any genuine politics underpinning the beliefs and aspirations of those participating. It’s unintelligent, hate-filled uber-nationalism, pure and simple, practised by those who would more than likely shit a brick if they were ever confronted by a breathing Provo.

more than 10 years after the GFA, of course.

yada

“Ideas of what is English culture can be forced upon people, but I’ve yet to see any consensus on what English culture is”

Perhaps in seeking a consensus, Dan, you’re over-complicating the issue? If you asked a German what makes him/her uniquely German, or a Russian uniquely Russian I expect they’d stumble a bit, too. When you are used to a culture/way of being, you tend not to notice it – things are just the way they always are.

Perhaps a consensus can be found by asking new immigrants what they find strange about England. My in-laws were immigrants from Egypt – and almost everything was alien to them. The weather, the language, the customs, the freedom (especially after Nasser!), the food, the interactions they had with others, manners, formality, clothes, humour, music, attitude to family life…..it goes on. Suffice to say their Egyptian culture was very different.

“It only really matters to those who want to use Englishness to advance a particular cause or ideology”

I don’t really agree with this, Dan. Human beings group together for all manner of things, not just causes or ideologies. They always have and they always will because it’s human nature. I wouldn’t class football as either a cause or an ideology, but people can become very tribal about it. The same goes for music, fashion, sport and any number of interests. People can be united by belonging to a group and of course, groups can also divide.

I once heard that the only way the human race will unite as a true force is if planet Earth is invaded by aliens.:-))

Not sure what it adds up to?

Shakespeare and Milton, Newton and Darwin, the Bill of Rights and Common Law, the Beatles and Elgar?

“Not sure what it adds up to?”

twee, but fake political correctness. speaking indirectly and in general terms. social awkwardness. sexual weirdness and pruderie. lots of booze and coke. yellow press. financial services. extreme politeness (two-facedness really)

“These kids aren’t “the working class”. They’re yobbos.”

Hm. No, they’re working class David, just not the “deserving” version. The angry one. You’re often going on about your Labour Party membership, but as a privately-educated lawyer you might want to consider a possible blind-spot with regard to the “working class”. This kind of attitude is what drives “the working class” in to the arms of the BNP.

I know you mean well, mind, but not having had your advantages I can promise you it’s a bit more complex than you can perhaps conceive. For starters – I’m sure you regard yourself as “middle class”, but when I was growing up you would have been right posh, if not upper class.

“These kids aren’t “the working class”. They’re yobbos.”

And you and I are champagne socialist, snobby little, rich kid, know-it-alls who are totally out of touch with every day life and just spend our days quaffing rare Belgian ales, discussing Marxism and listening to the Buena Vista Social club.

Social stereotypes are vivid and wonderful things.

David: “Yeah, but my mates include Bengalis who are Smiths fans.”

I take it they didn’t listen to Viva Hate….

Mike:”It’s a bunch of hoodies and their dads being silly twits.”

And what are you doing aside from typing? What are any of us doing?

“If they want to join the fight against Islamists then they should join the army”

Yeah – fuck ‘em. They’re just the ignorant working class cannon fodder.

At the moment they are the only ones engaged in a fight against Islamists. They are on the street and if there were more people on the streets, the government might start to listen. Posting messages on blogs won’t change shit. Without action – it’s just political masturbation.

Meanwhile, this sort of shit is happening:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8132374.stm

Can I take this opportunity to suggest that Harry’s Place get together with similar groups to organise a protest against extremists and the useful idiots that support them?

Maybe HP could call for a picket of friend’s house or something.

We’re speaking about ordinary people, not community organisers. A bunch of inner-city kids who are pissed off and have taken to the streets. Sure it’s flawed, but the motivation and energy is right.

Bring back George Gordon, the London mob needs a leader….

Mr T by the way is much more down to earth than you seem to think, and certainly capable of telling the difference between the working class and a mob of pointless chavs intent on provocation.

Still, at least while they are marching through Whitechapel they are not hanging around real working-class areas frightening old ladies I suppose.

“I’d like to hear more about this centre-left, progressive version of Loyalism.” Brownie

I thought you might bite at that one.

For those on progressive/leftwing side of Loyalism and Unionism the “support” given to their cause by the Far Right has long been a source of embarrasment and distaste.

The political platform of the Progressive Unionsit Party (despite being the defacto political wing of the UVF) was centre-left in its commitment to democracy, social-democratic encomic and social policy, Trade Union rights and non/anti-sectarianism. I fully accept that some of the PUP’s voters on the Shankhill etc probably still hate the “Fenians” and “Taigs” but some in the leadership were / are genuinely progressive. The late but widely respected David Ervine falls into this category.

For the broader leftwing of Unionism look at the likes of Paul Bew and Henry Patterson.

What I am trying to say is that no surrender chants in an English accent have a flavour of the far right which does not translate directly to no surrender chants in Ulster (or even Scotland).

“unintelligent, hate-filled uber-nationalism, pure and simple” – Thats equally applicable to the IRA and those who have continued the tradition of physical force republicanism. Irrational, anti-democratic, nationalist obscurantism used to justify murder of civillians in order to persuade a people who had been British for 400 years that they were actually Irish and all wrapped up in the name of progressive politics, liberation and resistance? Sounds familiar.

Given the shit educational system and the shit jobs (if any) on offer in this country, then more and more of the ‘deserving poor’ are going to be like this! People are only what their circumstances and opportunities make them. Anyway, they didn’t look like particularly rough lads to me.

Sue and the poster using the silling name – I am not saying that I am anti-English or that English culture is bad or shameful or anything. I think that cultural patriotism is a good thing. For my my identity as a Londoner is much stronger than my English identity and indeed I feel as British as I feel English due to Scots heritage.

The lefts commitment to internationalism and opposition to political nationalism is comendable but there is no need to be sneering or ashamed of the great aspects of English culture.

For the record I dont believe that racist or zenophobic beliefs are a white only phenomenon.

This is a provocative march, and it’s difficult to see what they hoped to achieve by it. But then, one could say the same about so many marches. I guess the idea was to generate some column inches or a bit of publicity.

What would have been better all round would’ve been to come down in their best togs, all kitted out for a night on the town and started to chat up the local Sylheti girls. They could also have protested the anti-miscegenationists in the local Sylheti community and carried placards such as ‘We like Bengali girls; we don’t want any trouble, just the freedom to mix together away from the bearded tribal elders’ or ‘How come Bengali lads can form gangs and stay out til all hours whereas Bengali girls have to stay in, cook tea and put baby Sophina to bed…freedom for Bengali girls!’

.What I am trying to say is that no surrender chants in an English accent have a flavour of the far right which does not translate directly to no surrender chants in Ulster (or even Scotland).

Indeed. The proud stubbornness of the Ulsterman (Unionist or Republican), – and his respect for principle – is one of his finest characteristics. And a world away from the loutish opportunism of yer street casual seen here.

But, oh Lord, it is local and regional, not national, identity than I value. Nationalism of whatever kind is a foul curse and false religion.

“Perhaps in seeking a consensus, Dan, you’re over-complicating the issue?”

I’m not seeking a consensus, I just think that the term “Englishness” means different things to different people and no-one should be required to be a certain form of “English”.

“If you asked a German what makes him/her uniquely German, or a Russian uniquely Russian I expect they’d stumble a bit, too.”

Russians and Germans can be characterised by their respective linguistic groups. The English cannot since the majority of native English speakers are not natives of England.

As for this particular protest, is it not patronising and insulting to the working-class in general to suggest that those dozen men are representative of working-class anger? There are millions of working-class people who are members of trade unions and many more than this collection of numpties have been out on the streets in recent years organising for a number of causes, including defending the NHS, protesting against high fuel prices, demonstrating against war and at present defending workers rights and jobs at various industrial plants around the country. Reducing working-class identity to a bunch of yobs who shout slogans that are even more ridiculous than the SWP’s is really an insult to those tens of thousands who actively campaign to increase their standard of living.

What they wanted was a clash with the Bengali locals, a big fight. What they got was a few people looking a bit puzzled and a police escort to Whitechapel tube. Someone said they were assaulted but didn’t really want to make a fuss because they just grazed their hand and seemed a bit embarrassed by the attention – that’s about it. The local residents did exactly the right thing. Ignore them.

“listening to the Buena Vista Social club.”

I would most certainly not listen to that.

“The English cannot since the majority of native English speakers are not natives of England.”?!

Boyonomore: Americans are native English speakers but are not natives of England. There are 400 million native English speakers in this world and the majority of them are in the US.

yawn,
we had this debate before.
Love the idea of the Beatles being “English” as understood by the banjo players; check out the roots of the names McCartney and Lennon (the latter is on the cover of Walls and Bridges”. I leave “Esptein” to your own imagination.

Common Law English! Tee Hee!

As to the rest, please see previous discussions.

Plink plink plonk

“The proud stubbornness of the Ulsterman (Unionist or Republican), – and his respect for principle – is one of his finest characteristics. And a world away from the loutish opportunism of yer street casual seen here.”

The Shankhill butchers – gents, they was, honest gents!
I am sure that those without kneecaps would also agree with this comment.

Dan

if someone wants to identify themselves, first and foremost, as a follower of a religion ahead of being a member of a nation then they should be allowed to do so. If they use that religion to threaten or intimidate others, then they should be stopped. Simple as that.

Depends what that entails. Too often religious conviction is being held up as material validation for factional misbehaviour and the inculcation of sectarianism. Substantively, sticking your religion in the faces of others, be they of a different faith or secular, is intimidatory and alienating. It doesn’t help the integrity of the broader community in any way.

Perhaps it’s a problem about defining what nationalism is supposed to mean rather than the term of notoriety it’s become here. It could be something rather more benign if it meant a broad community of diverse peoples celebrating what they have in common, rather than what seperates them. After all, isn’t that the frame of reference for the modern, successful, secular state?

“I would most certainly not listen to that.”

Which proves what I was trying to get across about social stereotypes.

But I assume the rest was spot on?

:-)

To define any national culture by linguistic groups is nutty. has Dan heard of imperialism and emigration?

Any attempt to define “national culture” is “nutty”.
It does not exist because ther “nation” does not exist. Never has done, never will do. It is a chimera. The second one tries to grasp what it is, it evaporates in a cloud of contradictions and “exceptions”.

There are some states that take up geopgraphical space which is a political entity. The idea of a “nation” as understood through the prism of “national culture” came after that, at a time when conflict between states became “total”.

“Perhaps it’s a problem about defining what nationalism is supposed to mean rather than the term of notoriety it’s become here. It could be something rather more benign if it meant a broad community of diverse peoples celebrating what they have in common, rather than what seperates them. After all, isn’t that the frame of reference for the modern, successful, secular state?”

Of a secular state yes, but one whose intentions are, like in the present case, undone and undermined, by those harping on about “national culture”.

There is not one definition of “nation” or “national culture” that holds up to rational examination; politically, socially or culturally.

Although it is rather amusing watching how people try to overcome this reality.

Ignorance is bliss thinks anyone with an Irish or Jewish surname can’t be English?

Was he on the march with the other racist morons?

Love the way that the lefties here have no knowledge or appreciation of cultures beyond their food and beverages. The conceits and self-loathing are most entertaining, comrades.

Shakespeare and Milton, Newton and Darwin, the Bill of Rights and Common Law, the Beatles and Elgar?

The Beatles? Wasn’t their music polluted by all kinds of pernicious non-English influences?

According to Dan:

“Russians and Germans can be characterised by their respective linguistic groups. The English cannot since the majority of native English speakers are not natives of England.”

by that definition, Canadian, U.S., Australian, New Zealand -ess doesn’t exist

Spanish and Portugal also.

and French culture only if less than 20% of the population of Francophone counties, exclding France, speak French – see List of countries where French is an official language

And, Scottish, Welsh, Irish -ness only exist by virtue of Welsh or Gaelic speakers.

“To define any national culture by linguistic groups is nutty.”

A lot of nationalism is predicated on existing linguistic groups (eg Bengali) or the standardisation/invention of an ethno-linguistic group (eg Italian). It would be nutty to define Englishness as speaking English, but there are for instance plenty of German speakers outside Germany and Austria and who identify themselves firstly as ethnic Germans (from Belgium to Romania they have their own political parties).

You can state that you are English for X or Y factors, but don’t deride others for defining their identity in other ways. As I said, I am disinterested in English identity, it is unimportant to me personally. Religion is also unimportant to me. I like to define myself in terms of what I think and my personal tastes. So, I dislike being lectured to on how I must identify myself as English, celebrate it or conform to certain stereotypes. You may if you wish, but I won’t. And I don’t see why others should either, whether they are white, black or Asian.

“by that definition, Canadian, U.S., Australian, New Zealand -ess doesn’t exist”

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. Many ethno-national groups are defined by their native language. For instance, Bangladeshi nationalism was rooted in a linguistic movement, resisting the Urdu-speaking Pakistani rulers. There is no other attribute to Bangladeshi identity other than speaking Bengali (even then, 80 million Bengali speakers live in India and this has posed a problem for national identity creation since independence). Englishness cannot be defined by language alone since that would imply that over 200 million Americans are ethnically English, which they are not. In contrast, the Welsh can say that they have a language that is exclusive to their nation. So, what is the basis of English identity? By the way, I think Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders also struggle with the same issue. Australianness is a controversial issue, particularly since the original inhabitants are the most economically and socially marginalised.

David:

“These are a bunch of hooligans, marching through Whitechapel, singing No Surrender and other far right songs.”

Bruce Springsteen and the E-Street Band have attacked Whitechapel?

Dan,

No I don’t think I misinterpret you – I think language isn’t the only characterisation of identity, nor is it the most important.

“Many ethno-national groups are defined by their native language” – particularly minority or colonised groups. But, obviously that’s irrelevant to colonial languages.

I am not all sure what the basis of Englishness is, or whether it exists, or has done since the Civil War, say, or whether it’s been subsumed into British-ness. But, arguing it doesn’t exist merely because it can’t characterised by language is silly. I’m fairly sure American-ness, French-ness, Spanish-ness, Portuguese-ness exist.

PS, “plenty of German speakers outside Germany and Austria and who identify themselves firstly as ethnic Germans ”
Do Austrians or German-speaking Swiss identify themselves as primarily German ? I doubt it.

And, with respect to Australia, Canada, New Zealand, their identities no doubt are controversial and evolving, possibly rapidly so, but I do think they have their own identities.

Gene, are you a cultural bigot in real life or do you just enjoy pretending to be one on the Internet? They also called Elvis a white negro, if you need material for your next post.

“arguing it doesn’t exist merely because it can’t characterised by language is silly.”

I didn’t say it didn’t exist, just that national identity is subjective and personal and as such no-one should be expected to prove their identity in public in order to be a member of society. What is often demanded of Asian Muslims in particular is that they are expected to do more than others to prove themselves to be loyal, integrated and productive members of society. But given that everyone has different expectations and ideas, it is an impossible goal for them to meet. Speaking English, for instance, is not enough for many people – certainly not for the handful of yobs in this video.

Re the chants of the guys who don’t seem to pay on the Tube.
“Love it or leave it” – less fascist more like hippie. As for “Terrorists Out” who has a problem with that? Film demonstrates what a great and special place to live is London.

Dan seems to want to extrapolate ideas of ethcity from the Indian sub-continent to the British Isles, when we have a totally different history and social structure. Then, it devolves into ‘I am what I feel I am’. Very Cartesian. There is a class dimension to all this of course, in terms of national interest. In that sense it is impossible to say there is a single ‘Englishness’, I call my midday meal ‘dinner’, Dan probably calls it ‘lunche’ or even ‘luncheon’.

What is often demanded of Asian Muslims in particular is that they are expected to do more than others to prove themselves to be loyal, integrated and productive members of society.

Many could start by allowing native Brits. to court their daughters/sisters/female relatives…that would be a start…

“Dan seems to want to extrapolate ideas of ethcity from the Indian sub-continent to the British Isles, when we have a totally different history and social structure.”

Did I? I was explaining to you that a vernacular language is an important element in attempts to create national identity in many cases. I picked the example of Bangladesh, but I could also have illustrated the fact with the Welsh. The fact remains that the English language is not unique to England and beyond saying that everyone in the country should learn English in order to participate fully in society, English nationalism is not driven by a linguistic movement as Welsh or Basque nationalism are.

“Then, it devolves into ‘I am what I feel I am’.”

Why does that bother you? I want to state my identity in the way I choose, not have people thrust it on me. Likewise with anyone else. You can be proud of your Englishness if you want, just don’t expect me to join you.

“There is a class dimension to all this of course, in terms of national interest.”

Why drag class into this?

I drag class into it Dan, because I am a socialist, I don’t expect you to be though. Also, why are you so touchy about other people being ‘proud’ of being English? To be honest, Englishness has never been an issue for the English for most of my life (I am 51 now), it is only in recent years that the subject has even come up. I wonder whose interests are being served by dividing the working class like this?

“I drag class into it Dan, because I am a socialist”

It still doesn’t answer my question. Do you think “working-class culture” is somehow more real and authentic?

“why are you so touchy about other people being ‘proud’ of being English?”

I’m not. I said that I was happy for you to be if that’s what you want to be, just don’t expect everyone else to feel the way you do.

@More real and authentic’? The Queen doesn’t live as a worker, does that make her less authentically English/British? Anyway, societies are collective entities, there has to be shared space and vaslues. How does that work with your ‘you are what you are’ philosophy?

“societies are collective entities, there has to be shared space and vaslues.”

A society is not a collective. There may be shared space, but no shared values – the shared space is where values should be contested, not imposed.