Harry's Place

Very interesting post, Alex. Thanks.

Good post. What a pathetic government.

Yes, some (most?) religious and some (most?) secular people are quite capable of living side-by-side. Not all do. The Israeli sculptor Palumbo was killed by religious people placing a metal chain across a public right of way to stop people driving through there. He was riding a motorcycle, and it killed him. The scenes one could see at one time (maybe even still today?) on Friday evenings and Saturdays on the street (in a secular neighbourhood!) where the chief rabbinate is located in Jerusalem, with religious people preventing law-abiding citizens driving along that street, used to be pretty scandalous. And let’s not even start on similar scenes in religious neighbourhoods in Jerusalem, where the streets are still public thoroughfares paid for by all Jerusalem residents.
So, some people are capable of living side by side. This Atlas obviously cannot. Shas is a disgrace.

Well, given that they have no military training, I don’t reckon they should be pushing it too far. You know what I mean?

Obviously the ultra-religious need their own country. Would the Indonesians or Filipinos be willing to lease an island or two?

It’s enough to make one come over all Morgoth!

It kind of makes me want to make aliyah to go fight these wankers.

David; you shouldn’t come for negative reasons! You should come to build and be built by it…

This sectarian racism is so anti-Jewish philosophy, as I see it, that I can’t grasp why its being articulated.

Meanwhile, the pogrom in the UK starts with antisemitism against a 4-year old at a predominantly Muslim school http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/four-year-old-is-abused-by-school-racists/

Worth an HP punt, sadly.

Netanyahu’s housing minister doesn’t even believe secular and religious Jews should live in the same neighborhoods? How long can he hold this ridiculous government together?

Ah – this is ridiculous and it’s a shame.

Thanks Alex.

We really do have a crappy political system. Something annoying I remember from the elections is that a lot of the MSM talked about how voters were showing signs of right wing-ness in Israel. Let me tell you something about the political system in Israel. We vote according to fads (the agenda at the time) while are still capable on disagreeing on a million and one topics (It’s a national sport really). All this time we are aware (although try to ignore it) that, we ain’t exactly a superpower, so regarding diplomacy and foreign affairs we (to put it lightly) receive a lot of influence from uncle Sam. Basically when we vote, get it over with quickly, and then wait for the next elections hoping next time around there will be some better candidates (you know, ones that are only suspects of theft of tens of thousands and not millions).
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Then we hang around with friends, or at this day and age go to blogs and forums and compalin about how are political system is crappy ;).

Sadly, Arfur, the pogrom started with the stabbing of yeshiva students.

Alex, when telling us what to think about a minister in a democratically elected government who supports offering separatist housing areas for groups whose lifestyles may be incompatible with those of the mainstream:

Always beware those who would tell you who it’s appropriate and not appropriate for you to live with.

Alex, unelected by anybody to anything, when laying down the line about the wishes of some groups of Jews to live in separatist housing areas that provide for strict Sabbath observance:

Tough. In a democratic country people must learn to live alongside those with different lifestyles. I live in a neighbourhood which is about 30% religious and there are no problems.

At one time, there was a proposal to establish a strictly orthodox Jewish enclave in a satellite area of Milton Keynes, as a way of solving the huge housing problems of young strictly orthodox families in Stamford Hill. I thought it was an imaginative idea, and think it’s a pity it fell through.

There are one or two small separatist housing groups in London– Schonfield Square in Stamford Hill is a strictly orthodox “village” for the elderly. There are some all-Carribbean housing associations. I don’t have any problems with those, and wouldn’t have with Islamic ones, either.

In the US, the Amish have lived in separatist villages for some time, and have thereby preserved their lifestyle. I actually regard that as a benefit. There are also quite a few virtually separatist strictly orthodox housing areas in the US– Lakewood, New Jersey, Kiryas Yoel and many others. They don’t cause communal strife and they provide the basis for an exceptionally rich communal life for those groups.

Did the Housing Minister propose to compel all groups to live in separate areas? No

Did he propose to force people to live in separate group areas? No

Who is the person insisting that all groups live according to one fiat, whether they want to or not? Alex

So what was the Minister proposing that was so outrageous, racist and intolerant in Alex’s eyes?

To offer additional parcels of land and assistance to those groups who want to set up separatist housing areas in Israel

Did the Minister propose to forbid those Arabs who wish to live in mixed areas with Jews to do so? No

Did the Minister propose to take away any land or potential housing faciilities from mixed area projects? No

Is Alex doing his best to vilify this Minister and the party he represents as racist and intolerant, taking advantage of the relative lack of knowledge that readers of HP tend to have of Israeli housing traditions, laws and funding mechanisms? Yes

Is the picture of the Minister Alex paints here fair? No

Does this make Alex a comically and laughably self-unaware ……. ? (Supply your own word and your own answer)

“To offer additional parcels of land and assistance to those groups who want to set up separatist housing areas in Israel” (Judy)

That should not be the goal of the minister of housing.

The goal should be that I and people like me be able to afford buying an appartment with a 10 year mortgage. And not in Dimona.

One for Alex. At last!

The Israeli PR election system does the people a major dis-service. Why can they just bite the bullet and reform it.

Judy, Alex is absolutely right and all you have succeeded in doing is painting yourself as a knee-jerk reactionary similar to the apologist for Islamism trolls who turn up of the Guardian’s Comment is Free.

Maybe both are achievable, Fabian. Alex was presenting remarks about his own views by a minister, and not the whole of what his policies and actions are.

There’s certainly not any possibility that any political party in the UK could make an apartment affordable even on a twenty year mortgage, let alone a ten year one. Absolutely unheard of here.

I don’t see what you regard as wrong about one option to be offered to groups that want to live a separatist life style. I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to set up a complete shomer shabbat village. After all, they never had problems setting up kibbutzim dedicated to bringing up children separately from their parents.

I bet though that he wouldn’t provide land to enable a gay group to set up a gay housing project. But then I can’t see that happening in the UK either. There was apparently a group in California trying to set up a gay old age community. But they weren’t able to get it off the ground.

Judy, Atias represents Shas, a racist Sephardi ultra Orthodox party, whose members have been known to disseminate Kahanazi views about the Arabs and equally unflattering views about Israel’s secular majority.
Certain local authorities in Israel do not allow non-Jews to live among Jews. Katzir and Upper Nazareth being cases in point. Vigilante violence is often used to remove Arabs from other “Jewish” areas.
Israeli Arab towns are desperately underfunded. I suggest you to go to Jisr al-Zarqa, near Givat Olga, Shafr-Amr, near Afula, Baqa al-Gharbiyyeh near Hadera or Umm al-Fahm, also near Hadera and the Wadi Ara villages and do a compare and contrast survey of the way their local services are treated in comparison to their Jewish neighbours’. I’m sure, if you are willing to be honest, that they suffer significant discrimination.
I’d also suggest you take a trip up to Biram and Ikrit, whose residents were told they could come back to their villages in 1948, but are still waiting to do so, while their lands have been appropriated by nearby kibbutzim.
Then there’s the situation in Eyn Hud, an unrecognised village with no electricity or water which was supplanted by the “artists” village of Ein Hod, on the Haifa-Tel Aviv road.

>.I don’t see what you regard as wrong about one option to be offered to groups that want to live a separatist life style.<<

Judy, I believe that’s similar to what someone said regarding ghettoes.

“I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to set up a complete shomer shabbat village. ”

Leaving the issue of religion for a moment, what is this nonsense of building “villages”? As if Israel were as big as the U.S. and everybody should have his house with a garden.

There is no land and there is no water for that nonsense. Not for Jews and not for Arabs.

The government should encourage projects for buildings in cities. And then the prices will go down.

Quite right Fabian. But then, successive Israeli governments have squandered billions on building settlements for the few on the West Bank and in Gaza because none has had the courage to stand up to the colonists. Israel is rapidly becoming the author of its own demise, I’m afraid.

Joe Millis, things are not so simple as you present.

The Arabs have the worst land-efficient populations of all Israel. I have to pay a huge rent while the Arabs simply steal the land and build houses with gardens. Don’t talk to me about those “poor Arabs”. The Arab towns have fucking amazing three floor houses which I couldn’t afford even in two lifetimes.

I agree with what you say about the settlements, Joe. But the same and worse can be said about the Arabs in Israel proper. They steal the land, and chop down the KKL trees for stealing even more land.

I have seen it with my own eyes, Arab houses perched in the middle of KKL woods. And the police doesn’t do anything, because the Arabs use a subterfuge: they leave the top floor of the house unfinished and thus they bypass the law.

“Israeli Arab towns are desperately underfunded. I suggest you to go to Jisr al-Zarqa, near Givat Olga, Shafr-Amr, near Afula, Baqa al-Gharbiyyeh near Hadera or Umm al-Fahm, also near Hadera and the Wadi Ara villages and do a compare and contrast survey of the way their local services are treated in comparison to their Jewish neighbours’. I’m sure, if you are willing to be honest, that they suffer significant discrimination.”

Many Arabs simply don’t pay taxes because the Major of the village is of the same “clan” as them. Then the municipality doesn’t have money to pay for water or electricity. Then the Arabs complain that Mekorot doesn’t want to invest in water infrastructure in their village because of “racism”.

The Arab municipalities simply don’t collect taxes as they should. This is not “racism”. It is the traditional Arab way of living, which conflicts with modernity.

Not to mention that Arab women DO NOT WORK because it is dishonorable to leave the house and be a “whore” working in a shop or a factory. Result: Arabs have less money, therefore buy less, therefore their cities are poorer than the average.

Discrimination against Arabs is a fact. A scool with Arab students will get less money than that with Jewish students. This is not a local policy but on a governmental scale. The figures aren’t hidden or anything.

Fabian, so much stereotyping, so little evidence…

While we are getting annoyed at what appears to be a policy of racism and social apartheid I hope we are all also mindful of the Palestinians who are demanding that they be recognised as an Islamic state under Shariah and the continual suggestion that a Palestinain State would be “Judenrein”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3739588,00.html

I wonder what those who support segregated housing policies here would say if there was a big sign approximately halfway along Eastern Ave. saying ‘Only indigenous Brits. welcome into this side of London’?

Joe Millis
3 July 2009, 9:36 pm

“Fabian, so much stereotyping, so little evidence…”

I believe Fabian said that he had seen it with his own eyes.

MattG

Shome Mishtake
3 July 2009, 9:50 pm

“I wonder what those who support segregated housing policies here would say if there was a big sign approximately halfway along Eastern Ave. saying ‘Only indigenous Brits. welcome into this side of London’?”

If you read the actual post again (or perhaps for the first time) you will see that the Minister does not believe religious jews should have to live amongst secular jews.

He views secular jews (the majority of Israelis) are as unclean as Arabs.

But don’t let this blatantly obvious fact (which highlights the unpleasant lunacy of the religious right in Israel) get in the way of a pointless and ulimately stupid jibe.

MattG

Judy – not sure what the elected/unelected stuff is all about. The fact that he was democratically elected (kind of) doesn’t mean he would necessarilly support democratic policies. I am sure you were equally vociferous in your support of the democratically elected Hamas government.

It’s your choice to support the idea of segregating lifestyles; I believe that it’s incompatible with the Zionist ideal of building an Israeli nation.

“Did the Housing Minister propose to compel all groups to live in separate areas? No”

But he did say, “I see it as a national duty to prevent the spread of a population that, to say the least, does not love the State of Israel.” Hard to see how he would manage that without a degree of compulsion.

“Did he propose to force people to live in separate group areas? No”

Ditto

“Who is the person insisting that all groups live according to one fiat, whether they want to or not? Alex”

Nice try. In reality, I’m simply suggesting that there be no legal impediments to people living where they want. Do you think there should be?

“Did the Minister propose to forbid those Arabs who wish to live in mixed areas with Jews to do so? No”

See some of the examples of this practice in the comments section; are you suggesting that Atlas would have been opposed to this?

“Is Alex doing his best to vilify this Minister and the party he represents as racist and intolerant, taking advantage of the relative lack of knowledge that readers of HP tend to have of Israeli housing traditions, laws and funding mechanisms? Yes”

Brilliant – finally you’ve got it. I write on Harry’s Place in order to convince the people who read it that Israel is an evil entity beyond redemption.

You are beyond parody, Judy.

David; you shouldn’t come for negative reasons! You should come to build and be built by it…

Naah, I like a temperate climate, and a temperate people too much.

Incidentally, I am astounded by the views that have been expressed above: some of which – and you know what I mean – are utterly disgraceful, and are not to be repeated.

Fabian, so much stereotyping, so little evidence…

I see no evidence showing that it is incorrect to say that in some, or even many Arab villages clan nepotism ensures that resources are not distributed fairly among all residents. Perhaps Joe Millis can provide the evidence that it isn’t the case. I can attest to the fact that in many, but not all First Nation reserves in Canada, clan nepotism does ensure that resources, jobs and perquisites are not distributed, or allocated fairly amongst all residents irrespective of their clan, or family affiliation.

And while we’re at it maybe someone ought to research and provide evidence as to whether the overwhelming number of Arab village local governments do or don’t collecting taxes from all their residents – regardless of clan affiliation – to pay to the State.

I wonder what those who support segregated housing policies here would say if there was a big sign approximately halfway along Eastern Ave. saying ‘Only indigenous Brits. welcome into this side of London’?

Ask Buckingham Palace whether a non-Anglican Brit would ever be able to take official residency there. How many acres does Buckingham Palace occupy?

As I understand it this is Minister Atlas speaking at a conference -not a proposal for a new law. As no links are provided to the actual speech it is rather difficult to put it into context, but to be fair, what exactly do we expect from a member of Shas? Let’s be very clear; between a minister setting out his ‘I believe’ at a non-governmental conference and something actually becoming law or policy and after that being implemented on the ground there is a very long and arduous process.
I actually see this as an indicator of the health of the Israeli democracy. I want the people at the opposite end of the political and social spectrum to myself to be able to express in public their hopes and aspirations for the state just as I expect to be able to express mine and I want their opinions to be listened to and considered just as mine should be. Although Minister Atlas is about as far removed from me as it is possible to be, I have a duty to listen to him and not automatically dismiss his opinions because of who he is or what I may think he represents because he is a citizen in my country. I have no desire to live in a homogenous society in which everyone thinks the same -such societies lack vibrancy and imagination.

@Mattg

Are you blind, man? Can you not see from the tenor of my post that I’m opposed to segregation and its advocates? Whether that segregation be religious (non-Jews, non-Muslims etc. cannot marry Jews, Muslims etc.), racial or cultural…I say again, are you blind, man?

@Lbnaz

You’ll have to explain the analogy here, because, to me, they’re two fundamentally different questions. One concerns a housing minister advocating religious segregation; the other concerns a private dwelling where HRH (Gawd bless ‘er) lives. You couldn’t live in my house but that doesn’t constitute advocacy of segregation.

It’s probably also important for people here to know that new settlements only receive financial help from the government for the first 10 years of their existance -after that they are on their own and whatever they build or improve is down to the community financing it themselves.
Fabian -if you are prepared to leave Gush Dan, there are plenty of opportunities for good quality housing. My kibbutz will happily sell you a house in the new neighbourhood -there’s a choice of 4 or 5 designs. The kibbutz next door will sell you a plot of land for 130,000 shekels including all the various services and you can build a house of your own design of up to 250 sq. meters upon that. If you prefer a mixed religious/secular community -Natur is absorbing new young families.
As you may expect, I don’t think the government should be investing in building in Gush Dan at all -there are enough private investors doing that. We need to populate the peripheral areas too, and that’s where government money should be going -Golan, Galil and Negev. I would particularly like to see more of the green building schemes such as those at Afik and on the Gilboa.
Of course I also believe that it is vital to continue to encourage and support agriculture in the peripheral areas -not only in order to feed ourselves, but because we have, in my belief, no right to hold land if we do not work it and I think that there is a worrying trend of Israelis in the country’s centre going back to the ‘traditional’ Jewish professions which were not tied to land -not ‘rooted’.

What about the non-Jewish immigrant workers? Where do they live? They should be in segregated areas too, surely.

By the way, the Royal Family aren’t ‘indigenous Brits’. They’re ‘of immigrant stock’, constantly replenished by further immigration. Buckingham Palace has been swamped by people with alien traditions. If you did a percentage count in the Royal Family over the last couple of a hundred years and extrapolated that for the whole population, hardly anyone in Britain would be speaking English. It’s that bad. Small wonder we’ve got people here who take up the immigration issue and win votes on the issue.

You couldn’t live in my house but that doesn’t constitute advocacy of segregation.

You’re royalty?

@Michael Rosen and Shome Mishtake

Just to be clear, non Anglican or Anglican Brits does not equal indigenous Brits. Buckingham Palace is not a private residence, it is the state made flesh and the flesh inter alia cannot be other than Anglican.

‘What about the non-Jewish immigrant workers?’
Which ones would those be?
We have none-Jewish temporary workers from places like Thailand and the Philipines who live with their employers.
Some none-Jewish workers, many from African countries or Eastern Europe, tend to live in Tel Aviv.
Immigrants, on the other hand, are usually Jewish and live where they choose.

‘It kind of makes me want to make aliyah to go fight these wankers.’
(David T)
I may be reading too much into this, but I find it rather worrying.
If one cannot love the whole of Am Israel -i.e. accept them for what they are and not feel the need to change them -then one would have a very hard time in Israel.

That Albert. I don’t think he was an Anglican Brit. And that Philip. I’m not really sure he is either. This is why we’re in such a bad way in Britain. We let Albert and Philip in when there were perfectly good Englishmen who could have done the job.

Just before I toddle off to sleep -one more thing. A rather disturbing theme in my view crops up time after time here on Israel-related threads.
Members of the liberal, broad-minded Left suddenly lose their ability for tolerance when anyone religious pops into the frame, be they government ministers or settlers. Would that there were a small amount of the concern and understanding shown towards Palestinians in the territories or Israeli Arabs (many of whom are also deeply religious, by the way) expressed for Israel’s Jewish religious communities.
We may not believe what they believe, we may lead very different lifestyles, we may disapprove of their politics, but we should certainly be capable of respecting their choices and opinions. We should also not forget that their contribution to Israeli society may be different to ours, but it is no less valid.

Fabian,
“One for Alex. At last!”
LOL.

Finally Alex makes a good point. Of course, from his view point, since every Israeli soldier is an “accomplice to murder”, there would be no money for any kind of housing. Only jails can be built due to the abundance of Israeli soldiers.

Stan

“Not to mention that Arab women DO NOT WORK because it is dishonorable to leave the house and be a “whore” working in a shop or a factory. Result: Arabs have less money, therefore buy less, therefore their cities are poorer than the average.”

Fabian, may I respectfully suggest that you go fuck yourself?

That Albert. I don’t think he was an Anglican Brit. And that Philip. I’m not really sure he is either.

Right Michael Albert was baptized a Lutheran and born in Schloss Rosenau, near Coburg, Germany and …

He was perceived to be from an impoverished and undistinguished minor state, barely larger than a small English county. The British Prime Minister, Lord Melbourne, advised the Queen against granting her husband the title of “King Consort”. Parliament even refused to make Albert a peer, partly because of anti-German feeling and a desire to exclude Albert from any political role. Melbourne led a minority government and the opposition took advantage of the marriage to weaken his position further. They opposed the ennoblement of Albert and granted him a smaller annuity than previous consorts, £30,000 instead of the usual £50,000. Albert claimed that he had no need of a British peerage; he wrote, “It would almost be step downwards, for as a Duke of Saxony, I feel myself much higher than as a Duke of York or Kent.” For the next seventeen years Albert was formally titled “HRH Prince Albert” until, on 25 June 1857, Victoria formally granted him the title Prince Consort.

So right Michael, his being the husband of the Monarch, but never to be considered a monarch himself, kind of like Phillip, all because in Albert’s case he was a Lutheran born near Coburg Germany, not an Anglican born in Britain, sure testifies to the extent of tolerance for non Anglican non British born citizens who get too close to the throne. You let Albert and Philip in precisely because there were ways to ensure that while they could marry in, they would never be permitted to do the job. How typically English, n’est ce pas?

Again it would be helfpful to have some statistical evidence about the Female workforce in Israel: what proportion of Jewish, Muslim and Christian females are employed outside the home in the labour force across the country and whether their collective earning power, or lack thereof is critical in determining better socioeconomic conditions in their communities. I know that here in Yaffo, there have been programs introduced to help Muslim women find employment outside the home. And I also know Muslim women in Yaffo who are employed outside the home. I haven’t got the statistics for Yaffo and I don’t know what the situation is in these regards in predominantly Muslim villages and in other cities across Israel.

IsraeliNurse – not sure why you’re introducing the freedom of speech angle. Of course he has the right to say what he thinks, and I’d agree that a variety of opinions is the key to a vibrant society, although I wonder whether you’d be saying that it’s a sign that Britain is a healthy society if the Housing Minister there talked about preventing the spread of Jews into Christian areas.

Re. intolerance to people who are religious; I’m not sure where you’re getting this from either. I have no problem whatsoever with religious people, up to the point that they attempt to impose their lifestyles on me. As you and I both know, there are many aspects of Israeli life in which the orthodox rabbinate has a monopoly. I support a total separation between synagogue and state.

“It kind of makes me want to make aliyah to go fight these wankers.”

Unbelievable statement David.

I wonder what those who support segregated housing policies here would say if there was a big sign approximately halfway along Eastern Ave. saying ‘Only indigenous Brits. welcome into this side of London’?

There you are in Saudi Arabia, going along the highway and you see a sign on a junction that says “Muslims Only”.

And then there was the nutter Rupert Brooks who asked John Reid what he was doing in a Muslim area?

Sadly, there are religious bigots everywhere. One crazy Israeli doesn’t define Israel. I remember the Rabbi who said that if the Palestinian fighting didn’t stop then kill 1,000 Palestinians, if it didn’t stop kill 10,000 Palestinians, if it didn’t stop then kill 100,000….

It grabs the headline and tends to stain ALL Israelis with the sayings of one. People don’t ever stop to ask if these things are Govt. policy or just thinking out loud opinions.

BTW – the wacky Rabbi’s aim is NOT to kill 100,000 Palestinians but to force Palestinians to stop their violence. In a sense he has articulated a formula that has worked twice. The UN stepped-in and forced ceasefires on Israel with Hezbollah and Hamas when they both started wars against Israel and were taking a pounding in terms of loss of life. The Rabbi’s formula was also employed by the USA against Japan.

Again Alex; as you do not provide a link to the minister’s speech -preferably in Hebrew, because some of the above quoted phrases are a little ambiguous -it is quite difficult to assess Minister Atlas’s exact position.
This phrase, for example, seems very positive -
“I plan to market large amounts of land to the Arab population in the Galilee in order to solve their problems, as well as land for secular and religious Jews.”
As I am sure you are aware, the national housing shortage affects the Arab population as well as the Jewish one, but cultural differences make different solutions appropriate.
Someone like Fabian may be forced to move further out of the main metropolis in order to get the appartment he wants at a price he can afford. Those are market forces which apply in London just as much as they do in Tel Aviv.
Amongst the Israeli Arab population however, things work a little differently. I have some good friends in Julis who are in a real pickle, for example. Their tradition is that a young man must build a house before he gets married, which usually happens almost directly after he completes army service at 21. The village’s population has grown so rapidly that there is literally no more room to build within the municipal boundaries. A couple of years ago when their eldest son was about to join up, they were telling me that they should now be starting the building, but they simply could not find a plot. I asked them if it absolutely had to be in that village -could their son not build elsewhere where there was land available? They were horrified at my suggestion, so I will be very happy if Minister Atlas frees up land for building around existing Arab villages so that people like my friends will be able to continue living according to their traditions.
That doesn’t seem to undermine Israeli democracy to me. It seems to be an attempt to make provisions for different cultural groups’ traditions and lifestyles.

Whilst, as a secular Israeli I share none of the political outlook of Housing Minister Ariel Atias (not Atlas! – one could at least get his name right) or his party, neither do I share Alex Stein’s naive optimism that my family could live freely and happily in an area dominated by Haredim. For sure, a minority of Haredim in my area, willing to put up with traffic throughout the sabbath, Friday night parties with music, bus stops with “immodest” advertising, indeed women baring legs and shoulders in the street- yes, when the tolerance is all theirs and I have to inconvenience myself not at all for their preferences. However I also know, and to a large degree respect the choice and the right of the ultra Orthodox to live in a community where they don’t have to have to smell my sabbath barbeque, listen to my music, or look at my bare legs.

Not to recognize the need for seperate communities is in my view to deny the delicate live-and-let-live status quo between secular and ultra religious which holds the diverse communities of this country together. Sometimes. At others – pluralism comes with great difficulty. Witness the recent car park riots in Jerusalem.

Israelinurse – I have tried looking for the storyline on Haaretz Hebrew, but can’t find it. I wouldn’t worry about the translation, though – I have a bunch of friends who work at Haaretz online and know that they do a very good job!

As I said, I think all Israelis should be able to live wherever they want in the country. So you are right – a solution to Arab housing shortages should be found, as long as it is not accompanied by a ban on Arabs purchasing homes in Jewish communities. Do you agree?

Basil – there’s a difference between aspiration and naive optimism. I’m well aware that most Haredi communities wouldn’t appreciate me listening loudly to ‘A Rainy Night in Soho’ by the Pogues on Shabbat (which I am doing right now). The point is we should be aspiring to create a tolerant and inclusive society where different communities and lifestyles and truly coexist.

I quite agree Alex, and as far as I am aware, no such ban exists.
However, I am obliged to say that the number of Israeli Arabs I have met who actually wanted to live in a Jewish community could probably be counted on both hands.
Allowing people to live where they want to works both ways: if they want to live in mixed communities, fine, but if they want to live in communities with a specific flavour to them, be that religious, ethnic or ideological, that has to be fine too.
I would not, for instance, force communities like Amirim or Harduff to take in people who did not agree to live by the basic principles upon which those communities are founded.

Racists Sha’s, they need to be cut off from all form of politics until they come around to thinking Barak’s way..

The link in Hebrew:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1097394.html

I went to sleep last night, and today I went to the forest, so now I am able to answer, shortly, to some issues here.

@ermintrude: instead of sending me to go fuck myself, search for some statistics about the Israeli workforce at the CBS http://www.cbs.gov.il/engindex.htm like I did when I was at the University. The proportion of Arab women in the workforce is very low, lower than the proportion for haredi women. If you understand the slightest bit about statistics, this data does not mean that you won’t be able to find a single Arab woman working.

Arab homes are poorer because they rely on just one source of income and because they tend to have large families and marry younger. This is pretty basic stuff, but apparently you cannot quote facts regarding Israeli Arabs, because it becomes “racism”.

@Israelinurse, thanks for the offering regarding the kibbutz, but I like cities. We come from Buenos Aires, and it was actually a big shock, especially for my wife, to live in a city of less than 300.000 people. I like to go out of my building, walk 5 or 6 blocks and find all the shops you need.

But I am convinced that this issue of “letting everybody live according to their traditions” is crap. It is crap first of all, because that lifestyle is subsidized with my taxes, it is not a clean result of the market. Second, because we live in a small country and there is no room and no water for villages. Suburbs are the worst economic idea in housing ever, the less ecological one. Translate that crazyness to Israel and it is nonsense multiplied by 10.

And who says that Arabs have to live in houses? There is a reason why the available land in Arab villages is depleted: they don’t build buildings. Sorry, but I am not a freier. This is not an issue of racism, it is an issue of planning and making the best with the scarcity of resources in this country.

I have been in Abu Gosh today, an Arab village on the road to Jerusalem. There is not A SINGLE building in the whole town.

Israelinurse – what about communities which want its residents to sign up to certain Zionist principles?

Basil -thanks very much for that link -it makes things much clearer. I actually tend to agree with the minister that the whole business of land management needs seriously overhauling, especially if we intend at some stage to evacuate the vast majority of the population of J&S. We need to have plans in place for relocation of settlements and the obvious potential sites are the Galil and the Negev. We certainly need next time round to avoid the mismanagement that was, and still is, so obvious in the case of the Gaza evacuees.

Fabian -you see what a good thing it is that we don’t all have the same tastes -I would die in about 10 minutes if you made me live in a city of any kind, especially in an appartment block. Give me my shop-free hill with a bus once a day any time! :)

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘certain Zionist principles’, Alex.
If you mean those referred to in the declaration of independence, I think we should all be able to sign up to those.
When I joined the kibbutz I signed up to various clauses like not owning property or certain items like a car and a TV (Oh how times have changed!), or earning a wage. If it wasn’t for me, I would have gone elsewhere.
Having read the link provided by Basil, it is obvious that Ariel Etias is mostly talking about Wadi ‘Ara, which you do have to admit is sometimes a problematic area. As someone who is obliged to use that road every time I want to travel to TA or J-lem, especially now that we can’t use the WB routes as we used to, I find it very worrying that the route is sometimes blocked by the local residents, and usually not in a peaceful manner. My family and I nearly came a cropper there several times during the second intefada.
No doubt Mr. Etias’ phrases lack polish and subtlety, but we cannot pretend that escalating extremism in places like Um el Fahm do not pose us real problems.

Well there’s an irony in invoking the declaration of independence in the context of a speech that quite explicitly goes against its principles.
As for çertain Zionist principles, I was referring to attempts to prevent Arabs from joining kibbutzim/moshavim etc via various underhanded methods, particularly in the aftermath of the High Court ruling which quite explicitly said this kind of stuff is illegal. What is your opinion on this?
I’ve been to Umm-el-Fahm twice, once for a weekend visit and another time to oppose Baruch Marzel and his chums. You can read my views on this issue here – http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/20/114/ and here – http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/03/24/everybody-be-cool-notes-on-a-counter-protest/

Just wondered if anyone was aware that, in Austrian dialect, “Shas” means “fart”.

The fact that he was democratically elected (kind of)

Alex doesn’t like his politics = he wasn’t ‘really’ elected democratically.
Pretty much sums up how Alex thinks.

I am sure you were equally vociferous in your support of the democratically elected Hamas government.

Hamas is in power by virtue of a coup.

Fabian, I think when you say ‘building’ you mean a ‘block of flats’.

Ermintrude, filthy abuse is no substitute for thinking or for facts.

Again Alex, if you bring a specific example, I can relate to it -I have no idea which kibbutzim/moshavim you are referring to or what the details of the specific cases were.
I can however point out that going to live in a kibbutz or a moshav is not the same as going to live in any other type of settlement because there is the issue of membership of the Aguda Shitufit at stake.
Your views on Um el Fahm are very much as I would expect them to be, but do not really address the problems at hand.
If the residents of a certain town here in the UK turned out periodically to block main traffic arteries such as the M62 with burning tyres and stonethrowing and destroyed all the traffic lights and bollards at whim, I reckon the locals here would be showing concern by now too.

Gordon Bennet – I don’t do “polite interaction” with filthy racists. Apologies if I offended your sensibilities.

Gordon Bennet – can you tell me which members of the electorate voted for Mr Atlas to be Housing Minister?

Well I do address the issue of extremism in my piece – the best way to combat extremism is to strengthen the force of moderation; this is best done by confronting discrimination.

Here’s one recent example – http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1090527.html

I should also note that I travel fairly regularly along the Wadi Ara road and have never had any problems. I suggest you visit the town and talk to the people to get a sense of the situation there for yourself.

Alex -what on earth makes you think I have not visited Um el Fahm or spoken to people who live there? Actually I have worked very closely with some of the town’s residents, some of whom by the way are none too thrilled by the Islamist takeover of their town.
I’m very glad to hear that you have not encountered problems on that road – it is not a pleasant experience or one that is easily forgettable. Good job you didn’t see it around autumn 2001.
As for the Misgav story -firstly I don’t think the settlements referred to in the article are kibbutzim or moshavim – If I remember correctly, most are yishuvim kehilatiim.
You seem to be looking at this in a rather one-sided manner. It’s fine to get het up about Arabs not being accepted into a Jewish community, but how many Jews are welcomed with open arms in Arab towns? I understand that a plan for a new Jewish neighbourhood in Yaffo raised very vocal objections from the Arab residents. How many Jews live in Arab villages in the Galil?
If you want to set yourself up as a fighter against discrimination, that’s fine, but it would be a little more plausable if you didn’t choose to completely ignore the other side of the story.
Do you really think that the residents of Um el Fahm, Musmus, Sakhnin or Arabeh want Jews coming to live in their towns? Or even in the region?
I was part of what was known as ‘Yehud HaGalil’ in the early 80s when there was a spate of settlement building in the area. The kibbutz I helped found was no more than a collection of flimsy caravans on a hill with zero facilities and one army issue field telephone which didn’t work when it rained. There were 26 of us in all and 4 small children. We planted orchards, manufactured rubber seals and raised beef cattle. On a very regular basis we would have to stop what we were doing and all rush off to catch our cows because the neighbours from Sakhnin would cut our fences and try to rustle the cattle or just set them loose. On more than one occasion some of our members were also shot at.
Now that didn’t seem much like a meeting with people who believe that everybody should be free to live where they like to me.
I have nothing against that principle; the very opposite in fact, but surely it has to apply to everyone?

I am sure you were equally vociferous in your support of the democratically elected Hamas government.

Hamas is in power by virtue of a coup.

Hamas as a terrorist group should never have been allowed to stand in an election for a democracy in the first place. Democracy’s incompatible with the possibility of electing political groups who are committed to terrorism and have and use organized terrorist forces to sustain themselves in power (and, in Hamas’ case, also use them to murder their opponents and seize power as well as launching repeated terrorist attacks on a democratic neighbour and kidnapping a soldier from that neighbour’s territory).

As for Alex’s response to my post earlier, he’s used exactly the same ground-shifting and slanted techniques that Israelinurse and PetraMB fisked so comprehensively after he wrote purporting to answer their criticisms of the post where he presented himself as a ventriloquist using a sock puppet of Binyamin Netanyahu to make his own views seem more grand and credible.

Example from my original comments:

Alex, when telling us what to think about a minister in a democratically elected government who supports offering separatist housing areas for groups whose lifestyles may be incompatible with those of the mainstream:

Always beware those who would tell you who it’s appropriate and not appropriate for you to live with.

Alex, unelected by anybody to anything, when laying down the line about the wishes of some groups of Jews to live in separatist housing areas that provide for strict Sabbath observance:

Tough. In a democratic country people must learn to live alongside those with different lifestyles. I live in a neighbourhood which is about 30% religious and there are no problems.

Alex’s response in which he presents himself as not laying down his own inflexible fiat, but suggests he was “just” presenting some sort of reasonable alternative way of looking at things.

In reality, I’m simply suggesting that there be no legal impediments to people living where they want.

Well, not quite, Alex. You did insist that those who want to live in affinity group projects should be told that they can’t, because they “must learn to live alongside those with different lifestyles. I didn’t notice any hint of “suggesting” in the words you used.

As for the rest of his attempts at responding to me, take a look at the extent to which they don’t even engage with what I say, or just resort to attempting to shift the point onto something which doesn’t follow from what I say.

Make up your own mind as to who’s beyond parody here.

Israelinurse takes all the issues I was concerned with responding to in Alex’s take on the Housing Minister and the debate around how people found communities and live in Israel, and gives a great deal of chapter and verse to the viewpoints I’m sympathetic to, better than any further explanation I could offer.

I think I should add that I am not against people living with whom they want to live. I am against the state giving land with facilities for building villages for that reason. If a group of haredim or modern orthodox or hashomer hatzair want to live together, why can’t they do it on a block of flats like me? (thank you Gordon Bennet).

Building villages in Israel is completely unreasonable in ecologic and demographic grounds.

But if the government want to promote a project for 100 haredim families living in a single block of flats, I have nothing against that, provided I can buy the same kind of apparments at the same cost as them somewhere else.

And, of course, I am against having to pay more for the same kind of lifestyle.

IsraeliNurse – of course Jews should be allowed to live in Arab towns, as long as that it’s not part of a process to dispossess Palestinians living there. One of the problems is that the settlement movement is now turning its attention to mixed cities, in order to stir up trouble etc. But Jews and Arab living together on the basis of parity – absolutely, and if you find me examples of Arabs trying to prevent Jews living in Arab towns on that basis I will be strenuous in my opposition.

As for your experiences in the 80s, they are very disturbing, but I think you have to provide the context, namely the following issues, taken from Sikkuy’s 2007 report:

1. The municipal boundaries of Arab local councils is limited, and the government authorities do not acede to requests to enlarge them in places that are critical for planning and expanding residential areas.

2. A large percentage of land that was owned by the Arab population was confiscated over the years, reducing the land area owned by the Arab population and its availability for housing, and has led to complications on the issue of land ownership. These complications create difficulties in building permits.

3. No Arab community settlements have been built [I would be opposed to this; for the same reason I'm opposed to Jewish community settlements], nor has an Arab city been established [although I think progress has been made on this since 2007], in spite of the occasional promises by ministers.

You can read more here – http://www.sikkuy.org.il/english/en2007/sikkuy2007.pdf

Now, can you answer the question of whether or not you oppose the practice of Jewish communities preventing Arabs from living there?

Judy – please read what I write properly. I know what you’re trying to do, and I know you think it’s very clever, but it’s fundamentally disingeneous. I thint we should prevent people from discriminating against people on the basis of their ethnicity. This is because I am a devout supporter of Israeli democracy. Are you opposed to this? Needless to say, we are also still waiting for IsraeliNurse to give a simple answer to the question.

“3. No Arab community settlements have been built [I would be opposed to this; for the same reason I'm opposed to Jewish community settlements], nor has an Arab city been established”

7 Bedouin cities have been established in the Neguev, if I am not mistaken.

“The municipal boundaries of Arab local councils is limited, and the government authorities do not acede to requests to enlarge them in places that are critical for planning and expanding residential areas.”

Just as the municipal boundaries of Rishon LeTzion and every town in the center of the country.

Alex, before you get all principist, take a look at these numbers:

Uhmm el Fahm, Arab town: 1892 persons/sq. km

Rishon LeTzion, my city: 3786 persons/sq. km

Holon: 8839 persons/ sq. km

Who has less land per person, Jews or Arabs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_population_in_Israel

Why are you such a freyer?

Judy/IsraeliNurse, this comment, from a reader of my blog, is well worth reading: “there are two separate things he violates that it’s important to distinguish: integration of citizens has some history as a Zionist goal, and you’re right to say he violates that, but I think it’s worse that he’s violating a core liberal principle of freedom of domicile for segregationist purposes. The state’s commitment to freedom of domicile means there’s a limit to how far it can go in imposing integration, and there’d be something illiberal in the state’s saying to, say the ultra-Orthodox of Meah She’arim in J’m, ” you must allow x # of secular Israelis to live among you for the sake of promoting integration.” But if that’s illiberal, then so too, obviously, is government _encouragement_ of segregation. There’s a certain degree of illiberalism for the sake of _integration_ that I personally don’t think is so bad. But one might expect a government minister in a Zionist state that is also a liberal democracy, even if he didn’t share the Zionist goal of integration, to at least be committed to the liberal principle of state neutrality. I won’t say I’m shocked to see that a Shas minister has turned out to have neither of those commitments, but his _being_ a minister is, when you think about it, crazy.”

Fabian – wasn’t dealing with the issue of Beduins there; it’s a different sector, and I don’t know much about it. Your point about population density is important, although a little reductionist. I’d expect any new master-plans for Arab areas to also encourage modernisation of housing etc, to deal with the disparities you highlight. I’m certainly not proposing a one-way street.

“Your point about population density is important, although a little reductionist”

But your whole point was reductionist: the Arabs lack land, give them land!

I think we need to holistically solve the problem. One aspect of the issue is solving the issue of land allocation.

Alex -I think I have made it very clear above, but in order to remove any doubt I’ll repeat the point. People should, in general, be able to live where they wish, but that applies to both Arabs and Jews (and of course Christians or any other group). They should also have the right to choose whether to live in a neighbourhood with mixed religious and secular or Arab and Jewish populations, or in a settlement or neighbourhood with a specific flavour or ideology, in the city or in a rural area.
Of course nowhere in the world are people completely free to live wherever they wish, although in most cases the limitations are financial/economic or related to planning laws -the ‘green belt’ issue in Britain being a prime example.
I am not familiar with all the intricacies of the Rakefet case, and they are not set out in the link, but not every case of non-acceptance to a small community is based on racism. I’m sure if you investigated you would find that Rakefet had also rejected applications by Jews to live there. I was head of my kibbutz’s absorption for several years and I can tell you that we rejected far more applications than we accepted, not on the basis of race, but on the percieved commitment of the applicant to our particular and very specific way of life. In a small community, that is very important because the level of interaction is much greater.
In my eyes one of the many great things about Israel is that one can find a place to live which is not just a house, but fulfills other needs too. If you want to live according to the principles of Rudolph Steiner, there’s Harduff. If you want to live with other vegetarians, there’s Amirim. If you want to live according to Reform movement principles, but also believe in the kibbutz ethos, there’s Ketura. If you want to live a super-green lifestyle there’s Lotan, and the list is almost endless. I see it as freedom of choice on a marvellous scale, not as segregationist.
From the above Alex, I’m not sure you are fully aware of the original reasons behind the establishment of Jewish settlements in the Galil. There were (and are) clear security issues behind this. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you that historically the kibbutz movement has always accepted the challenge of establishing civilian agricultural settlements with the secondary purpose of serving as a security buffer in times of war or unrest and that many members of the kibbutz movement have paid with their lives for taking on this role.
I am fully aware that the vista from Tel Aviv is very different to the view in the more outlying parts of the country -and I’m not talking about the landscape. Wars are not fought in Tel Aviv -they are fought in the remote parts of the country. Security is still a very big issue in these areas and the rising Islamist movement in several Galillee towns and villages is a subject we ignore at our peril. I don’t think we can overlook the fact that residents of Wadi ‘Ara with a specific anti-Israeli agenda are still capable of bringing a significant part of the country to a standstill as and when they please. To my way of thinking that is entirely unacceptable.
We are definitely in need of a review of land allocation, (and I understand from your initial post that this is precisely what the conference was addressing), particularly, as I said above, as we will at some point need to build homes for almost a third of a million evacuees from J&S. However, part of that reform will have to include an acceptance by Arab communities of the fact that they are not the only ones with claims to land and that the state will decide where their municipal boundaries begin and end, not a man with a gun or a firebomb.
Btw -you may also wish to address the issue of racial tension and violence in mixed Muslim, Christian and Druze settlements such as Mraghar -affectionately known by those of us who have worked in A&E Poria as ‘Mragharav HaParu’a’ due to the high frequency of sectarian violence there -the consequences of which (shootings, stabbings etc.) end up in the department.

IsraeliNurse – What steps do you think we should take vis-a-vis minorities? Or is it all their fault? Does your kibbutz accept Arab applicants?

“the state will decide where their municipal boundaries begin and end, not a man with a gun or a firebomb.” Is this referring to a specific case? Have the Arabs of the Galilee successfully taken land with violence? I’d be interested to know how often the Wadi Ari road has been blocked off. Any idea? The most recent case of a citizen-led roadblock I can think of was settlers following the dismantling of an outpost. (It’s important to note just how deeply the settler movement is mired in illegality; certainly far more than Israeli-Arab groups)

I don’t know where you get the idea that I think we should ignore the problem of Islamic radicalisation. The best way to combat this, and the best way to ensure a successful future for the Galilee, is to promote its development in such a way that all its inhabitants will benefit. This is part of the process of normalisation. Israel needs to move forward as a strong, confident, modern democracy. You are right that there were important security benefits for settling the Galilee in the past. Today, when it comes to our fellow Israeli citizens at least, we have to try a new approach, one that ensures that Israeli-Arabs will be fully integrated into the state.

I am proud to live in Tel Aviv, btw. Despite all the jibes, and despite many problems, it remains the most progressive and libertarian part of the country, and is in many ways a model for the future development of Israel.

PS The sectarian violence you refer to is awful and should be opposed. Above and beyond that I’m not sure exactly what relevance it has to the issue at hand.

“(It’s important to note just how deeply the settler movement is mired in illegality; certainly far more than Israeli-Arab groups)”

Sorry, is this something you can measure/have measured?

I’d be interested to know how often the Wadi Ari road has been blocked off. Any idea? The most recent case of a citizen-led roadblock I can think of was settlers following the dismantling of an outpost.“(It’s important to note just how deeply the settler movement is mired in illegality; certainly far more than Israeli-Arab groups)”

I’d be interested to know if Alex knows, or cares how frequently cars bearing Israeli plates with drivers and seated passengers including children have been pelted with rocks and molotov cocktails as part of a “citizen protest” and whether this “citizen-led activity” mires Israeli Arabs in illegality far less, or far more than Israeli Jews.

Do you know Lbnaz?

Well, Alex, I cited the sectarian violence because if Muslims, Druze and Christians who are all of Arab ethnicity can’t live in the same village without periodic knife fights, it hardly bodes well for adding Jews to the cocktail, does it? In fact it may even suggest that different groups of people actually live more peacefully when they have their own communities. We recently saw some very unpleasant racial tension yet again in Acco too. I’m not advocating segregation by any means, but I think we have to also recognise that mixed communities of all sorts of different kinds are not always the nirvana people such as yourself like to suggest.

‘(It’s important to note just how deeply the settler movement is mired in illegality; certainly far more than Israeli-Arab groups)’
This I think you should check out statistically -I’m not convinced it is at all accurate, and even if it is, it’s hardly an answer -two wrongs and all that.
The Islamification of villages in the Galil has little to do with lack of integration or other objective factors in my view -it is part of a global phenomenen which we see happening all over the world. It exists just down the road from me here in Dewsbury and Bradford exactly in the same way as it exists in Um el Fahm. To claim that disaffected youth has ‘no choice’ but to turn to Islamism because of the situation in the ME or perceived injustices in Israel is a classic far-left self delusion. Let’s not forget Alex that Israeli universities are full of Arab students, that there are Arab MKs and high-ranking professionals in all fields, including the diplomatic services. Let’s not forget that Arab women have a vote and are free to dress as they please. Let’s also not forget that the flourishing Jewish communities of the Galil have boosted the properity of the whole region and provided employment and a better way of life for many from the Arab communities there.

My kibbutz does not have any Arab members -we have never had any applications -but we have in the past rented out appartments to Israeli Arabs.

You know Alex, I have friends in Daboriyah and Turan who would be rather insulted by the suggestion that they are not integrated into Israeli society. These are hard-working people with their own businesses, one of whom has sat on the local council. They have made the most of their opportunities and succeeded because they spent their time looking at what they had and building upon it -not mourning what they hadn’t got. I don’t think we need to take any steps vis a vis them. They are doing rather well by themselves.

Yes, I realised some time ago that you like Tel Aviv and that’s great of course; I’m glad you’re happy there, but I personally do not see it as a role model to which the rest of the country should aspire. There is much more to Israel than just Tel Aviv; geographicaly, culturally, spiritually. In my view it would be a tragedy if Israel became one homogenous mass.
Progressive and libertarian are great, but certainly not appropriate for all Israel’s different kinds of citizens. If we are true libertarians we will be able to recognise that fact and be humble enough to realise that we cannot and should not impose our progressive principles upon people who cannot accept them, and not resent them for it.

IsraeliNurse – Well if that opening paragraph had come out of the mouth of a BNP member, it wouldn’t have surprised anyone. People are perfectly capable of living together, although obviously it takes time. The crucial thing is that the government makes it absolute clear that ethnic discrimination will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

Re. The Settler movement – read the Sasson Report; can you find any equivalent vis-a-vis Israeli-Arabs?

I’m not sure where you get the idea that I think disaffected youth have no choice but to turn to Islamism. What I am saying is that one of the factors (amongst many, some of which are entirely the fault of the communities themselves), and one that in Israel we’re not doing enough to address.

I’m also well aware that there is much to be proud of vis-a-vis Israel’s minorities. It’s a shame that all your posts are spent either a) bringing up a factor which doesn’t address our responsibility, or b) bringing up something positive to distract from the task at hand. Confident people do not need to do this. When someone criticises me for my behaviour, it is not good if I say, “but look, he is much worse,” or “but I’m really good at sitting still.”

Would your kibbutz accept Arab members?

As for your friends, I am well aware that many Arabs are integrated into Israeli society. But we are not successful enough, as a cursory look at reports produced by experts in the field (Sikkuy, Abraham Fund etc) demonstrate.

I didn’t say that Israel should become a homogenous mass; rather that the progressive values of Israel should percolate around the country.