Harry's Place

Morgoth, Nick Ex-Sa, my advice is to demure from this thread.

A stunningly well written piece, David. Thank you.

Alec, I would concur with your comment.

Truly awful story.

“A stunningly well written piece, David. Thank you.”

Totally agree with this. Well written piece and one which needed to be made public.

Horrific story.

Shocking. How on earth did the man get into a courtroom with a weapon?

The murder of this woman because she was a Muslim is bigotry taken to its logical conclusion. There are no excuses to be made and no way of “understanding” that can mitigate it, and “Axel W” needs to be (and will be) removed from society. One way of differentiating us from the Ben Whites of the world is to be clear about that now.

But: Explain to me, please, how “insulting her religion” — of which Axel had just been convicted before he killed Marwa Sherbini — should be seen as a punishable offence. Axel W should have been reviled by anyone and everyone for that — but, prosecuted? In a western, liberal, secular democracy? David T; you’re usually reliable on this stuff. Do you think he should have been dragged into court on the original charge?

The case has attracted much attention in Egypt and the Muslim world.

It must be said that the fire has been stoked by the usual suspects over here, and politicians have been jumping on the bandwagon to condemn the ‘racist’, ‘xenophobic’ and more importantly ‘Islamophobic’ nature of the crime.

Al-Jazeera belatedly covered the story with this quote:

But Sulaiman Wilms, the head of communications at the European Muslim Union, said that the incident was at least partly representative of the situation faced by Muslims across the continent.

“People are looking for victims and Muslims are sometimes seen as a viable option.”

Just as we saw and are still seeing the memory of Stephen Lawrence abused by various vested interests, I fear that this poor lady’s death will also be used by Islamists and the race industry to silence debate further and exploit Western notions of liberalism to promote gender apartheid. If enough publicity is generated by the civil suit against the murderer and a critical mass of pan-European Islamist organisations is reached, we could well see lobbying for so-called Islamophobia to be made a crime.

As is to be expected for an Islamist mouthpiece, IslamOnline has been leading the charge to exploit Marwa’s death with calls for a World Hijab Day in addition to the little-known International Hijab Solidarity Day, held in the first week of September. It comes as little surprise that orgnisations such as the Assembly for the Protection of Hijab (Protect Hijab) supported by a whole host of dubious characters and organisations (see here) are vying to use Marwa’s death, President Sarkozy’s recent statement and opposition to the burqa, niqab and hijab as a promotional catalyst for their own extremism.

I find it absolutely unconscionable, but altogether telling, that certain media outlets have been latching onto the term ‘hijab martyr’ to describe her in death.

Marwa had taken her three-year old son Mustafa to play in a Dresden park. A German man, identified only as Axel W, insulted her because of wearing headscarf and called her a “terrorist”. She filed a case against him in German courts after the incident.

She won the case and the court fined Axel W €780 for having abused her and having acted in a threatening manner. Axel W then appealed against the verdict. It was during this appeal hearing that he stabbed Marwa, killing her and her unborn child.

Yes, I think he should have been “dragged into court” on the original charge, Paul M. Or perhaps you think it is acceptable for anyone to march up to total strangers and start roundly abusing them, terrifying their small children, simply because of the way in which they dress.

I can understand why you would be concerned should Islamophobia become a crime, Klinsharter.

Whilst I share your concern about the grimy media opportunity that some will take on this issue, I cannot help but be concerned equally by your attempt to score points in your turn.

Here’s a video of a demonstration convened by the MB with special placards in Alex.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z16lli1bH2Y

Also check out the other videos down the side…

Whilst I share your concern about the grimy media opportunity that some will take on this issue, I cannot help but be concerned equally by your attempt to score points in your turn.

I’m not trying to score points. But putting Marwa’s death in the context of thousands of Christians killed every year in Muslim majority countries specifically because of their religion is instructive.

Only yesterday, a 13 year Coptic girl was raped in Asyout, in Upper Egypt, specifically because of her religion. But you won’t see anything like the amount of press coverage or condemnations from various commentators on this.

Let’s be clear, this is a terrible crime. But figures such as the Rector of al-Azhar, Shaykh at-Tantawy, coming out and calling for the death penalty for her murderer together with interviews given by the victim’s brother in which he calls on Germany’s Muslims to kill her assailant are beyond the pale.

“Marwa Sherbini, 31, was stabbed 18 times by Axel W, who is now under arrest in Dresden for suspected murder.”

This is awful. So is the bigotry against Jews being perpetrated by the Muslim Brotherhood and its antisemitic European friends.

As the previous post by Habibi shows (there are no posts there) readers here care not at all about bigotry against Jews.

Shame on you.

Why did the killer have the time to stab a woman 18 times right in front of the police?

I think we need to keep some perspective on this. In any society there are going to be unbalanced people who attack individuals on the basis of some perceived difference. I know personally of someone who was attacked by a knife wielding madman in Morocco for no reason.
This person was European and the likelihood is that the signs of difference were enough for the madman to attack.

I don’t think Europeans need to go into a guilt-fest over an isolated incident – especially when, as already indicated, thousands of Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists are targetted by Muslims and subject to often murderous violence.

All that is required is for us to completely condemn the crime and ask that the severest possible punishment be applied given all the aggravating circumstances.

The principled position is to oppose all acts of murderous violence across the planet.

Or perhaps you think it is acceptable for anyone to march up to total strangers and start roundly abusing them, terrifying their small children, simply because of the way in which they dress.

Ermintrude: I’m not interested in picking a fight with you, even if you seem to want one with me. I thought I was clear in my condemnation of Axel W. If he was threatening, violent or intimidating then the state should have charged him with harassment, assault, or whatever it was, and shouldn’t have left Ms. Sherbini to bring suit for herself. Intimidation, not insult to religion, is the problem with Axel W’s behaviour.

“Insult to religion” is a thought-crime for theocratic dictatorships, not the lands of free speech. I don’t know where I got it from, but there’s this phrase tapping away at my brain: “Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.” I don’t think I invented it, but it’s pretty good. It’s amazing how quick we can be to throw away our ideals, like that one, for fear of offending non-western sensibilities.

Paul M.

I agree with all you say.

One of my earliest memories was witnessing in London a man go up to a nutty Christian preacher in the centre of town (I think it was the bloke who used to go on about protein) and very aggressively “in his face” as we might say now declaim something about Mohammed and Allah. I guess it was the Muslim profession of faith. But it was an act that was certainly full of potential violence. The Christian preacher thought better of martyrdom that day.

Anyway the lesson I draw is that free speech is good but intimidation is bad. Axel W. sounds like he was intimidating this woman and her family. Therefore he is to be condemned.

But we know that there is a lot of intimidation directed against people who tell the truth about Islam and the Prophet Mohammed.

“Only yesterday, a 13 year Coptic girl was raped in Asyout, in Upper Egypt, specifically because of her religion.”

I apologize for my technical error. A 13 year old Christian girl getting raped in Egypt is a feature, not a bug.

There are no Left-wingey groups, anywhere on the planet, devoted to defending the rights of Middle Eastern Christians to remain Christian.

Anyone interested in how Muslim sociopaths game the system of Western Liberal democracy might want to look into how the Muslim founder of an international cable channel originating from Buffalo, New York, USA, cut off the head of his wife without so much as a peep from the Western press.

Instead of me providing links, how about all of you deeply sick, sick Western, liberal democracy hating fucks start googling keywords like Muslim, Buffalo and Head Chopping and see what you come up with.

Klinsharter. Thank you for your take on the reaction to this crime in Egypt.

It did noting to reduce my horror at the act of a probable sociopath in Germany.

It is definitely strange the absence of new coverage of the major Western news services.

On the face of it this is a hate crime and the killer should be sent down, the courts should review their security arrangements…that’s as mother and apple pie. No doubt that will happen as Germany is a first World country, not a third World shit-hole.

Two points.

Firstly, I can understand a conviction for intimidation, or violence, for breach of the peace and such like….but insulting a religion! I hope that’s a reporting error.

Secondly, this case is unusual because it’s an inversion of the usual scenario. It’s a man bites dog story.

By far and away most religiously inspired hate crimes, including killings are done by Muslims to other Muslims… for not being the right sort of Muslim, not sufficiently adherent.

Misogynistic ‘honour’ killings are rife in Muslim communities. Killing of kufur by Muslims is rife too.

Goodness, a xenophobic German, how unusual.

Poor little boy, left without a mother, I hope his dad recovers.

Can’t we simply condemn this without the speculation about how this MAY be exploited?

Excellent article – I had read about this terrible case already but it’s good to see it covered here too – particularly as it has been surprisingly under reported I think. I share some others’ feelings about the undesirability of legislating against insulting religion but the precise terms on which this man was brought to court are overshadowed by the brutal killing.

@Biff Larkin – I certainly read about the Buffalo beheading – my sense is that that got as much coverage as the Marwa case.

The absence of media attention in English language media before it was picked by the BBC and al-Jazeera does not reflect racism or prejudice as some (not here) have been suggesting. Even in Arabic language media, it was not until the day of her funeral (yesterday) that non-Egyptian newspapers picked it up and ran with it. By contrast, Egyptian blogs have been circulating the story for several days, and have, in my opinion, been irresponsble in their tone. Having read the majority of the Egyptian Arabic and English language blogs on the story over the last couple of hours, it’s apparent that charges of endemic racism and insults levelled at what is described as ‘government-controlled’ Western media have gone beyond a simple reaction to the manslaughter of a woman in a courtroom. The perceived inactivity of the English language media and blogosphere is seen in marked contrast to that displayed after the murder of Neda in Tehran. Little has been written about the fact that Marwa was able to take her slanderer to court or that she won her civil suit against him. Little too has been written about the fact that Marwa and her husband were afforded the opportunity to come to Germany and seek employment and a higher standard of living. Instead, Marwa’s death has helped reveal some of the self-same prejudices critics have accused the West of. Something that has also escaped the attention of Egyptian bloggers is the complete inactivity of Muslims living in Europe on the matter. Surely, if Western media outlets have failed to pick up on the story until now because of some hypothetical prejudice, this must also impact on Muslims.

What we are seeing from Islamist media sources is a concerted effort to use this despicable murder as a launchpad to silence debate over the veil and headscarf. Islamists know that, by employing the language of liberty and human rights, they can achieve their stated goals by default; Western countries, and in particular the well-supported human and minority rights advocacy sector, will make special arrangements to compensate Muslims for hurt feelings and perceived insult. Expect to see this case invoked by Islamist organisations and individuals everywhere as supporting evidence for their ludicrous claim that Islamophobia is endemic; just as race hustlers and their legal accomplices were able to set off the chain reaction post-Macpherson with the magical Black Panther inspired term ‘institutional racism’ that has led to the creation of a massive wasteful self-perpetuating bureacracy, thought policing and an unhappier less cohesive society, so too will Marwa’s death be exploited to cow politicians and public officials, eager to stave off accusations of xenophobia and racism that stick.

Apparently not.

“Something that has also escaped the attention of Egyptian bloggers is the complete inactivity of Muslims living in Europe on the matter.”

I read about this on (an uncharacteristic visit to) MPACUK – over the w/e I think.

I read about this on (an uncharacteristic visit to) MPACUK – over the w/e I think.

Well, I’ve just searched their site and come up dry…could it have been elsewhere? Searching Marwa’s full name in Arabic via Google News and Blogs only produces a few results dating before 5th, so I’m sceptical…

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5827/102/

Here is the link above.

I suppose it was inevitable that people would turn up here and say that those reporting on or protesting about this horrible crime are simply stirring up trouble, using it for malign ends etc. Would the same allegations be laid at those who protested against the equally horrible murder of Theo van Gogh?

Hold your nose, here comes the scum from the HP sewer.

German Jews condemn slaying of pregnant Muslim woman

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098207.html

Thanks Sarah.

Note that they copied it from ‘the Local’ newspaper and published on 5th.

The Daily Mail published a report the SAME day (1st July) she was killed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1196845/Woman-stabbed-death-witness-box-defendant-gave-evidence-courtroom-horror.html

Clearly, her murder wasn’t ignored.

I suppose it was inevitable that people would turn up here and say that those reporting on or protesting about this horrible crime are simply stirring up trouble, using it for malign ends etc.

Well, let me put it this way, if I killed you and shouted ‘bloody long hair! Rarrrrrr I despise people WITH LONG HAIR!!!!’ before I did it and then people commentating on the incident turned it into a crime with a racial motive, wouldn’t that be misleading? In this case, we have people insinuating that Marwa was killed because she wore a headscarf despite there being no evidence for this.

Would the same allegations be laid at those who protested against the equally horrible murder of Theo van Gogh?

Well we know, Simon, from Bouyeri’s own testimony and what he wrote on the note pinned to Van Gogh’s chest that it was a religiously motivated hate crime. In this instance, however, the evidence so far is inconclusive, at least from the media standpoint. One source quoted in the English language media states that Axel W, Marwa’s killer, expressed his dislike of Muslims at his original trial. Another, though no names are given, states that prosecutors in Dresden have said El-Sherbini’s killing was a racial hate crime. And the most oft quoted source, who could well be the source of the ‘racial’ motive, Dresden prosecutor Christian Avenarius, said that Marwa’s assailant “was driven by a deep hate of foreigners” and that he “harbored a deep hatred of Muslims.” So this is inconclusive. Muslims aren’t a race and neither were there any specific comments made about Marwa’s wearing a headscarf; it is just assumed that this was the object of her killer’s hatred.

Of course, there are idiots who are willing to smear and blame all Muslims for Van Gogh’s killing, but they are wrong and almost certainly in the minority.

Yeah, if she were killed for being a Muslim it would be a relief, right? Because Muslims aren’t a race!

Jesus! She was a pregnant woman butchered in a German court! How can that have not been newsworthy? How can anyone start saying, why aren’t other murders in Bhutan covered by the media? Why aren’t Jewish and Christian deaths reported so widely? This is an incredibly qualified condemnation of an atrocious act.

Obviously a horrible crime. I’m surprised it was not news over here, where the BBC/Guardian axis promotes Islam as a peaceful faith practiced by gentle souls in the face of BNP terrorism & public ignorance.

Throughout Europe, most religious & race attacks are against indigenous
Europeans & non Muslim immigrants, perpetrated by Muslims in the main.
That is enough to make this news as a man bites dog story.

None the less a rotten criminal act

Yes Folks, the Far Right is Lurking Out There ………

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/06/far-right-terrorism-threat-police

“There is an increased possibility of violence from the far right. There is a trend,” said one senior source, adding that the ideology of the violent right was driven by “people who don’t like immigration, people who don’t like Islam. We’re seeing a resurgence of anti-semitism as well.”

“Sawyer….. said of its far-right section: “It is a small desk … we need to grow that…”

Beware of monster desks.

Yeah, if she were killed for being a Muslim it would be a relief, right?

Nobody has said that, least of all me.

Because Muslims aren’t a race!

Correct.

How can that have not been newsworthy?

But it was newsworthy, on the very same day she was attacked, as evidenced by the extensive Daily Mail article; a newspaper, incidentally, often accused of fanning the flames of Islamophobia.

What you, and others, seem to be saying is that because her death was motivated by what you consider to be a special category of hate, it should be more newsworthy and warrant op-eds and mass hand-wringing. My contention is that all acts of violence are abhorrent and this one perhaps all the more so because Marwa (may Allah forgive her and grant her eternal peace!) was pregnant.

There’s something especially nauseating about reading assorted Islamic clerics and Islamist non-worthies pontificating about human rights and freedom of expression though.

There is no biological category of race, only a perception of one. If the murderer believed she was congenitally a terrorist because of her being a Muslim then the attack is no different to a racial one just as a girl being raped in Egypt for being Christian is the same.

“Yes Folks, the Far Right is Lurking Out There ………”

Well, indeed. There’s such a lot to fear from the cunning, ninja-like warriors of the extreme right…

Even the ‘Guardian’ doesn’t see the disconnect in mentioning the sole, solitary successful rightwing terrorist – over a decade ago!

Firstly, I can understand a conviction for intimidation, or violence, for breach of the peace and such like….but insulting a religion! I hope that’s a reporting error.

What did I tell you? Let’s just assume it was, or that it was the best recourse to tackle someone who clearly had committed a breach of the peace and potentially assault.

Maybe the response of the media in Islamic states has been hypocritical and opportunistic. Maybe there is no protection offered to their Christiani minorities. That has no bearing on this case.

When are German courts going to instigate security?

Hold your nose, here comes the scum from the HP sewer.

Are you going to tackle it, or simply smirk and supercilious smirk?

How can one “insult” a religion?

The German legal system should be ashamed of itself.

I agree with Alex, this case needn’t be needlessly muddied with whataboutery. This just plays into the hands of the various identity groups you condemn.

then the attack is no different to a racial one

All murders are equally abhorrent whatever their motivation. In Marwa’s case, her manslaughter led to death of her unborn child too.

Just under a month ago 9 foreigners were kidnapped and 3 murdered in Yemen. The other 6, including 2 children, are still missing. Yet, we’ve seen no mass condemnation of Yemeni, and by extension Arab racism, xenophobia or ‘Christianophobia’ in Arab media. The event barely raised an eyebrow. And nor did the killing of the British hostages in Iraq or the American teacher in Mauritania…or the British hostage in Mali. Who remembers their names? Who in the MENA will be campaigning against their killings?

The responses of many on this thread are utterly disgusting and repellent.

I shall not be returning to this site.

Klinsharter,

Today is 7/7. If I did a post commemorating this fact and the thread became littered with comments reminding us not to forget the “millions killed in Iraq and Afghanistant by British and US forces”, I suspect you’d be at the head of the queue telling these people to fuck off. Probably just in front of me.

‘Whataboutery’ is plain ugly from whichever quarter it springs.

This post was about a young, pregnant woman butchered in a German court by a racist psycho. If you can’t just condemn this, unequivocally, and without reference to this or that alternative atrocity, then we don’t want you here. And this applies to the rest of you ‘whataboutery’ merchants.

Firs Metta and then Ermintrude… this is too much.

Glad to see sensible types are trying to hold the line on this one.

There are some really special fucked up fucks on this thread. Not the sort of people you’d want to have a pint with, shall we say. They’d probably start throthing about how white people are the only unheard victims and then you’d have to take your cinzano and orange off to another table and scrutinise the beer mats really closely.

I mean, seriously, how low can you go? Where is the humanity? What a bunch of scumbags.

Yup, Ben, they sound like all those who crawl out of the weedwork after a terrorist attack against Israelis or on British streets to say, yes it’s terrible… but…

Fuck off and die roaring.

And may you all get leprosy as well.

An atrocity to be condemned without reservation.
And a spectacular failure of the enforcement of law and order.
How was such an individual allowed to bring a knife to the courtroom? How could security fail to protect the woman?
The best thing liberals can do for their multicultural vision
is to put enforcement of law and order at the top of
their agenda.

Islam in Europe has a decent round-up on this story.

What thomas k said. No room for whataboutery here. It was an appalling crime, and Germans are a bit wet on security. What makes our societies superior is that we aim to protect all our citizens (and indeed non-citizens) from this sort of thing, and it is terrible that the protection failed in the case of this poor woman. Hope the sentencing policy for this fascist scumbag is a bit less wet.

An atrocity to be condemned without reservation.

I agree with this actually. and empthasise this point completely!

I do not think anyone in this thread is saying anything different, or would not say anything different. What is disturbing is that Ben and Alec, for example, are working themselves into spasms of righteous anger over reactions which do not exist.

This is just awful – an appalling tragedy for the family.

@British not Racist: have you got any statistics to back up your claim that “Throughout Europe, most religious & race attacks are against indigenous Europeans & non Muslim immigrants, perpetrated by Muslims in the main”?

@Biff Larkin: Epic Fail there, man claims no media coverage of incident he read about in the media… hahahahahahaha

Today is 7/7

And? What has that got to do with the price of 10 B&H and a packet of Rizlas?

‘Whataboutery’ is plain ugly from whichever quarter it springs.

And so is making lofty, groundless and imprecise accusations. Why is it not relevant that so much of the comment in Arabic is littered with calls to make criticism of Islam an offence? Why is it not relevant to mention that Islamist orgs. and their mouthpieces have belatedly cranked up the accusations of entrenched islamophobia to capitalise on Marwa’s death?

If you can’t just condemn this, unequivocally, and without reference to this or that alternative atrocity, then we don’t want you here.

I have condemned it, numerous times. If you’d cared to read the various posts in Arabic and English on the story around the web as I’ve been doing for the past few hours, then you’d know that one of the salient themes is that some sort of conspiracy has resulted in Marwa’s death not being reported in the English language media and that this reflects some sort of hypothetical centuries-long Islamophobia and hatred of Muslims. As I’ve found numerous reports on the murder in Western media, not the least of which is in he Daily Mail the day of the incident, I felt entitled to examine why certain sites and bloggers were fueling these accusations of Islamophobia…

Oh, and it takes a special category of cockweasel to say things like ‘we don’t want you here’.

There are some really special fucked up fucks on this thread.

Fuck off and die roaring.

Our resident Tourette’s sufferers are in fine fettle I see…

Morgoth – you didn’t condemn it though, did you? In fact you didn’t mention it. The only outrage you expressed was that the bloke was taken to court in the first place.

The issue on posts like this is that you can really only say (correctly) “how awful”. So you won’t get many other comments apart from those from anti-Muslim bigots with a supposed point to make about media reporting of hate crimes.

I really wonder if having comments open on such news report posts as the above is worth it to be honest.

There’s a reason why Christianity teaches people to turn the other cheek. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never harm me. The man was obviously unhinged, and resented paying damages to the woman. The Islamacist site I read claimed that the German Police Officer in teh court deliberately shot Marwi el Sherbini’s husband. He langusihes critically ill in a hospital. Incidentally, did you see that it is now reported that Neda Soltani was a Christian?

Morgoth – you didn’t condemn it though, did you? In fact you didn’t mention it. The only outrage you expressed was that the bloke was taken to court in the first place.

Oh go and boil your head. I have comdemned it, without reservation. What else do you want?

Oh, and it takes a special category of cockweasel to say things like ‘we don’t want you here’.

Nope, it takes only a co-author of the blog on which you spew your whataboutery.

Me host. You guest. Got that?

Why is it not relevant that so much of the comment in Arabic is littered with calls to make criticism of Islam an offence? Why is it not relevant to mention that Islamist orgs. and their mouthpieces have belatedly cranked up the accusations of entrenched islamophobia to capitalise on Marwa’s death?

I note how in your last comment you try to narrow the focus of your responses to this outrage to issues that, perhaps, could be considered tangentially related to the subject matter of this post. Of course, this wasn’t the case when your previous comments included lines such as:

Just under a month ago 9 foreigners were kidnapped and 3 murdered in Yemen.

Only yesterday, a 13 year Coptic girl was raped in Asyout, in Upper Egypt, specifically because of her religion.

This is flat-out ‘whataboutery’ of the first order. It’s takes a special category of twat not to recognise this.

And we still don’t want you here.

To be fair to Morgoth, he didn’t try to “contextualise” this atrocity as some have done.It’s just his usual beef with protection given to religious thought.

Not entirely appropriate for this thread, perhaps, but not naked whataboutery, either.

I don’t *want* anything Morgoth. You were attacking reactions to whataboutery you claimed didn’t exist, whereas the focus of your initial comment was an outstanding example of it.

I suspect MoreMediaNonsense may be right.

It does however give us an opportunity to pay tribute to Stephan Kramer’s exemplary compassion and humanity.

I do find it interesting that while mention was made of the Yemen hostages and murders, there was no mention of the huge protests by Yemenis against this disgusting behavior.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ibRM3tFL_DMWQW0_cK4f15PnBSzQ

I also find it interesting that I can’t find anything on the google news search about the rape of the 13 year old Coptic Egyptian girl that happened ‘yesterday’.

It is important to condemn this murder, but the condemnations, despite the opinions expresed here, have little value unless the condemnations are made without reservations and without attached conditions right across the religious spectrum

You cannot sincerely and honestly condemn Marwan’s murder while at the same time remaining irretrievably silent and cupide on the horrific treatment meted out to religious minorities all over the Islamic world every single day.

Such selective condmenations smack of blatant hypocrisy, not to mention shallowness and superficiality.

We crow on about how life is so sacred in The West, and yet turn a blind eye to how cheap it is in the Islamic world.

And as for the murderer being convicted of “insulting the Islamic religion”- if one were to apply that law in an even handed manner and display a similar rigour to those Germans insulting Christianity, half of the country’s intellectuals, academics and artists would be behind bars.

This is a tragic death, but its treatment in the media, and the maudlin tone of so many articles, skews the reality and presents a very dishonest portrait in which the principle aggressors are portrayed as the primary victims.

It’s a real progressive piss-christ take on things, if you ask me, and one that will facilitate yet more murders on religious minorities in majority Muslim countries, and one which will produce yet more demands on the part of islamists to “accommpodate” their religious sensitivites.

Mike, how the hell is directly referring to something mentioned in the original post “whataboutery”?

You’re just making bull up to have a go at me, to be honest.

A murder is a disgusting act. I fully support all who’ve denounced whataboutery on this thread. And kol hakavod to Stephan Kramer and the Central Council of Jews.

Firs Metta: alec, what happened with metta?

I clicked on one of the referenes given in the thread above that deals with this story. It took me through to an islamic site and it was interesting to read the comments. One poster said that he knew Marwi el Sherbini and her family. He said that what was being said in their home town was that this Russian fellow was intimidating German neighbours as well and the neighbours decided to take action against him. It would appear that Alex W was (at the very least) anti-social. Obviously, it is not the way to go about settling neighbour disputes, and we all know that it never happens in those perfect societies where Islam flourishes.

She was pregnant.

She was three months pregnant, in fact, and that aspect of this tragedy has been played up for that extra touch of sympathy.

Her child, her unborn baby of three months, was sacred, and the fact it died with the mother an element that just increases the outrage and indignation.

What’s strange about all that, though, is this; when HP has postings about abortion, a three month old “unborn baby” morphs from the status of an unborn baby, a sacred object, to that of a mere foetus, when it isn’t conisdered a malign tumour, the removal of which becomes not just indispensable but also a moral imerpatif.

We decry, and rightly so, the fact Marwan was murdered while pregnant with a child, and we treat the ‘death’ of that foetus as though it were that of a separate and distinct human being.

Yet, when HP discusses abortion, the ‘death’ ( abortion) of a three month old foetus arouses no indignation whatsoever, and is, in fact, treated as a necessary and even desirable medical procedure.

“the principle aggressors are portrayed as the primary victims.”

Who are the principle aggressors in this instance, JP? That would be Axel W presumably? Oh, no. You mean Marwa Sherbini, don’t you?

Because she’s not an individual human being with her own life and dignity. She is a cypher for creeping Islamist encroachment. I would call you a fucking muppet or something like that, but I’m actually at a bit of a loss on the insult front, because that level of dehumanisation is pretty extraordinary, really.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HER POLITICAL VIEWS WERE. And, also, IT DOESN’T EVEN MATTER. How difficult can it be to get this basic point across? But no, it’s all about some grand game of the dark hoarde against upstanding Christians. I’ll parry your Sherbini with a defaced synagogue or an honour killing – little bits of real human lives being essentialised and distorted to fit a clash of civilisations thesis. The individual humanity just isn’t relevant, is it?

You say there’s selective condemnation, but you’re the only person selectively condemning. Do you expect other people to turn around and say, “Well, actually, I rather support a bit of brutal suppression of Middle Eastern Christians and as for those Iranian Baha’i, well, less said the better.”

Fucking breathtaking. Sheer, boneheaded, pig-ignorant, screaming blinkeredness.

Following the comments on this thread has been instructive, if not edifying. Yes, there has been some whataboutery on display, but there has also been an unpalatable resort to instinctive sanctimony. Alec, Brownie and others like them are outraged that anyone should deviate from the acceptable herd-speak, which they seem to think permits no response beyond “How terrible!”

Marwa Sherbini’s murder is first of all a personal tragedy, for her and her family. But it also touches on societal concerns. If it didn’t, why would HP feature it instead of any one of tens of thousands of other murders? If we’re not being invited to think about the societal implications, why is this post here? This is Harry’s Place, remember? We argue about precisely these things. If the BBC is reporting that “Insult to Religion” has become a crime in Germany, that’s worth talking about. So is the fear that Islamists will make hay with this death and exploit it in exactly the same way they did with the Mohammed cartoons.

Amie, Metta was banned during this thread. No temporary ban, as his behaviour probably did merit, but an immediate permanent ban. I’m not sure what the cause of his disagreement with Marko was, but suspect one stole the other’s boyfriend.

Lemme repeat. Metta was banned, and this thread has not resulted in any bannings. Go figure.

Yes, there has been some whataboutery on display, but there has also been an unpalatable resort to instinctive sanctimony. Alec, Brownie and others like them are outraged that anyone should deviate from the acceptable herd-speak, which they seem to think permits no response beyond “How terrible!”

The nadir has been reached. You contemptable fuck.

Lock this thread, for Christ’s sake.

Paul M, my dear fellow.

You’re not a brave individual thinker delivering the unpalatable truth to the practitioners of lefty herd group think.

You’re a twat.

What is disturbing is that Ben and Alec, for example, are working themselves into spasms of righteous anger over reactions which do not exist.

Ben was responding to comments, whilst I was presaging them. Get the difference?

Nick has conformed to my prediction. Even though, as Brownie said, you didn’t try to conceptualize this cold-blooded murder of a pregnant women, you didn’t see the need to express any immediate horror at it but started prattling on about anti-religion. So, at the very least, you’re a collosal bore.

RE: Ermintrude: I shall not be returning to this site.

Oh my god, ermintrude won’t be returning, shut HP down now, is life worth living???

What cheek from Ben; let’s change the context a little, and say it’s an Israeli woman killed in a mindless attack (like, say, where the bulldozer driver goes on a rampage in Jerusalem)… Can you imagine Ben writing this:

Because she’s not an individual human being with her own life and dignity. She is a cypher for creeping (Zionist) encroachment. I would call you a fucking muppet or something like that, but I’m actually at a bit of a loss on the insult front, because that level of dehumanisation is pretty extraordinary, really.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HER POLITICAL VIEWS WERE. And, also, IT DOESN’T EVEN MATTER. How difficult can it be to get this basic point across? But no, it’s all about some grand game of the dark hoarde against upstanding (Muslims). I’ll parry your (insert female Jewish/Israeli name here) with a defaced mosque or a (rampage by settlers) – little bits of real human lives being essentialised and distorted to fit a clash of civilisations thesis. The individual humanity just isn’t relevant, is it?”

I would love to hear something like that some day, but i won’t hold my breath.

What cheek from Ben; let’s change the context a little, and say it’s an Israeli woman killed in a mindless attack (like, say, where the bulldozer driver goes on a rampage in Jerusalem)… Can you imagine Ben writing this:

What in sanity’s name are you talking about? Why must Jews be brought into everything?

We all have something to bring to this discussion, and what you or Paul M or Nick or Morgoth or John Paulwankie should start bringing is silence.

you didn’t see the need to express any immediate horror at it but started prattling on about anti-religion. So, at the very least, you’re a collosal bore.

You can read my mind now, can you?

Stop stomping about this thread as if you own it, you don’t.

Metta’s been banned permanently? That’s sad. Can HP swap Metta for someone on this thread?

“Ben was responding to comments, whilst I was presaging them. Get the difference?”

And let’s be frank – Alec’s presaging wasn’t exactly a million miles wrong, was it? But not exactly difficult. I’m sorry, Alec, I’m gonna need tougher presaging if I’m going to give you that horroscope gig.

Vildechaye – you’ve lost me. If you are saying that your hypothetical situation involves lots of other people being wankers whatabouting with regard to [Jewish girl]’s death and painting her as an agent of evil zionism, then why would I not think my response would be completely apposite when reversed? I think you have mistaken me for someone who regards Israel/Palestine as being like some particularly gruesome football match where you pick sides.

And let’s be frank – Alec’s presaging wasn’t exactly a million miles wrong, was it?

My in case it was 180 degress wrong!

Morgoth, your first comment was at 0945 hrs and said:

How can one “insult” a religion?

The German legal system should be ashamed of itself.

Not, oh, gosh how sickening that a pregnant women was stabbed to death because of her religion and in front of her husband and son. It was no less tasteless than hijacking a 7/7 thread into a rant about immigration, considering that three of the bombers were born in the UK.

I didn’t presage specifics, just that you and Nick (and, no doubt, others) were going to cover yourselves in glory. Which you have.

None of you know what the original charge against Axel W was; just what you have from the BBC article. Considering that he went on to stab a pregnant women to death in front of her husband and child and in a German court suggests she had been perfectly right to bring some proceedings against him when he originally abused her in the street.

Now clear off.

Morgoth, your first comment was at 0945 hrs

And my second comment?

Now clear off.

Are you a mod or owner of this blog? No, you are not, so stop trying to control who says what. I posted two relevant on-topic comments, and now you have completely derailed the thread ranting on about who should and who should not post according to your own personal ideas of grandeur.

“Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now”

Very apt for you indeed.

These are terrible events which show quite clearly what can happen when the mentally unstable cannot see a beyond a person’s clothing and beliefs to the human being underneath. No doubt in Axel W’s own mind what he did was entirely “rational” eh Morgy?

Metta’s been banned permanently? That’s sad. Can HP swap Metta for someone on this thread?

Metta is off abroad for a while and I am hopeful that when he returns the vengeful Gods of HP will welcome him back.

And my second comment?

Is that not what Jeremiah Wright said? Your first comment revealed your over-riding priorities.

There is no biological category of race, only a perception of one. If the murderer believed she was congenitally a terrorist because of her being a Muslim then the attack is no different to a racial one just as a girl being raped in Egypt for being Christian is the same.

Yes indeed race is a fiction but racism is real. Not sure that we need to bring race or religion into this at all. Wrongly calling someone a “terrorist” is slanderously accusing them of being a criminal. That’s wrong enough innit?

Is that not what Jeremiah Wright said? Your first comment revealed your over-riding priorities.

Again with the amateur psychobabble.

My first comment is precisely what John Lennon would have said. As was my second.

So sod off.

Just admit you’re a collossal bore, Morgoth, and be done with it.

Alec,

You raise self-importance to an art form. Bravo. It’s entertaining in its way, but not as useful as addressing the issues.

I said, with my very first words and as clearly as I know how, that the hatred acted out by Axel W against Marwa Sherbini was intolerable and inexcusable. But — because I think it’s OK to walk and chew gum at the same time — I also raised an eyebrow about the idea of Germany charging and convicting someone for the crime of insulting religion. Ermintrude thought that was OK; I explained why I thought it wasn’t. Your contribution was to say that anything was alright so long as it served to get him convicted of something. Other people have raised the same point and a few more beside, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t.

For that, Ermintrude stamps her feet and leaves, Ben informs me I’m a twat and you muster your analytical powers to determine that I’m a “contemptable [sic] fuck” who should be locked out of the thread. You’re not content simply to argue your case, you have to silence those you disagree with — but I’m the contemptible fuck?

Paul M,As a rejoinder (and a final comment), Alec may think you are a “contemptable [sic] fuck” ; but I happen to think that you are a contemptible, sick fuck.

Just as I choose not to dwell in pubs full of utter wankers and associated boneheads, I choose not to sit on threads with right-wing twats like you.

The sound you hear, incidentally, is not the stamp of petulant foot, but the sound of me slamming the door of this establishment.

Fuckwit.

Bye bye now.

Again, Ermintrude, there are other threads.

I said, with my very first words and as clearly as I know how, that the hatred acted out by Axel W against Marwa Sherbini was intolerable and inexcusable.

Followed by… but. Have you not got this through your noodle yet? This is not about something somewhere else; this is about the racist murder of a pregnant women in front of her husband and child. What is so difficult for you to understand about this?

Murder is murder, and not an opener for talking about something somewhere else. Got that?

“I also raised an eyebrow about the idea of Germany charging and convicting someone for the crime of insulting religion. Ermintrude thought that was OK.”

I think you will find, if you were to do some digging (as opposed to smearing) that you will find that Axel W was not convicted of the crime of insulting religion (which I think is not actually a crime in Germany – but I may be corrected), but of threatening behaviour.

Try reading what I wrote, you despicable cock.

Just admit you’re a collossal bore, Morgoth, and be done with it.

I’m not the one who has spent the entire thread moaning and complaining.

alec: I missed all that- banning metta permanently sounds shocking. I will have to read that thread to see what happened.

It is not now possible to follow what happened, as that thread has been pruned. From what remains, I would just like to add that one of my sons has just been awarded a Cantab PhD with great accolade from the awarders, and if it comes to the attention of either me or his brothers that he becomes precious about calling himself Dr, he will be firmly squashed by one or all of us. It would be absurd to use it outside his immediate academic circle, and certainly not worth taking umbrage about.

Ermintrude,

“… I happen to think that you are a contemptible, sick fuck”

“… you despicable cock”

If you want to complain about smearing, don’t smear. It makes you look like a hypocrite and a fool.

“Try reading what I wrote…”

I tried that, but you needed me to read your mind — which, it turns out, is not worth the trouble. Why don’t you read back over my first comment and your first reply: Either you took the BBC report at face value, as I did, in which case your words say that it’s OK for Germany to prosecute people for “insult to religion” or else, as you now seem to want to imply, you knew the Beeb had it wrong — in which case you preferred to start a fight than say what you knew.

Alec,

Get over yourself. If possible, do a little growing up too.

Hey Alec: You’re obviously a few pixels short of a screen. It was entirely appropriate to contrast Ben’s squealing about islamophobia with his attitudes toward Jews/anti-semitism/Israel/Zionism.

I completely agree that the murder of this woman by this psycho racist was outrageous and evil, without equivocation. However, when an israeli (or for that matter, a jew anywhere) is brutally killed, there are always qualifiers, root causes, etc etc etc. That was my point, and I made it by substituting an israeli for the muslim/german woman. I don’t think it was that difficult to understand, and I stand by it.

And for what it’s worth, based on what i’ve read on this thread, alec and ermintrude are the fuckwits here.

I completely agree that the murder of this woman by this psycho racist was outrageous and evil, without equivocation. However, when an israeli (or for that matter, a jew anywhere) is brutally killed, there are always qualifiers, root causes, etc etc etc.

vildechaye, yes, and what happens when someone tries that tactic on here? They generally have a new arsehole ripped by the regulars, and they bloody deserve it too.

So employing the same tactic when the roles are reversed should invite what response, exactly? Alec, ermintrude and I are displaying the same moral and intellectual consistency as regards whataboutoery. It’s ugly, it’s dumb, it’s just plain wrong.

I do find it interesting that while mention was made of the Yemen hostages and murders, there was no mention of the huge protests by Yemenis against this disgusting behavior.

Er, thanks ‘fact checker’, not that the al-Houthis were protesting against the murders in reality though, they just didn’t want the govt. to have yet another excuse to crack some Zaydi heads…but then you wouldn’t know that from reading the AFP PR.

I also find it interesting that I can’t find anything on the google news search about the rape of the 13 year old Coptic Egyptian girl that happened ‘yesterday’.

It’s not on Google News, ergo, it never happened. Unlike you, I actually live in Egypt and get facts from the horse’s mouth so to speak. But don’t let that stop Doubting Thomases like you…

moral and intellectual consistency

Brilliant! More, please!

Brownie: I wasn’t talking about u. This began with “Ben” talking about how disgusting it was that people were qualifying their condemnations with whataboutery. I thought that was rich coming from someone who always qualifies similar atrocities with whataboutery when the victim is israeli or jewish. Frankly, I don’t understand what your problem is with that…

Vildechaye.

What’s with the scare quotes around my name? I quite like it. My name is Ben. Always has been, always will be. It’s not fake or deceptive in any way.

Now then, pleasantries out of the way. How fucking dare you accuse me of being an anti-semite, you fucking presumptuous little cunt?

How you could possibly come to that conclusion is quite beyond me.

If you had bothered to read my comments on this site you would realise that I was a staunch supporter of Israel’s right to exist in peace and security. Not that this should be a litmus test in any way (since large numbers of people opposed this without remotely being anti-semitic), but you are so far wrong that you are talking to someone who reluctantly supported Operation Cast Lead. I have been accused of being a neo-con zionist by lefty fruitbats. (I’m not, I’m just a long-suffering Labour moderate.)

Now fuck off, and try even remotely getting near target next time. Where the fuck did you come up with that cretinuous, obviously wrong, smearing shitty bilge from?

I rather suspect he thinks you are Benji old bean!

The incident illustrates not any particular German racism, but instead the power of creeping dhimmitude and David’s succumbing to it.

Apparently the perpetrator was a Russian on trial for the “hate crime” of insulting his Muslim neighbour when she asked to have her child use the man’s swing.

The Islamic reaction is hysterical (”Germans are the enemies of God”) and is calculated to intimidate and so enforce Islamic supremacism. Has there been any such “outrage” from the Muslim world at the hundreds of violent anti-Semitic acts instigated by Islam world-wide? To protest the death of Ilan Halimi? To protest Iran’s murder of dozens in the Argentinian bombing, and Iran’s sheltering of the culprits?

The use of such incidents to gin up hatred is a standard Islamic practice. From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/world/middleeast/07briefs-Egypt.html

“There is no god but God and the Germans are the enemies of God,” the mourners chanted.

From the Los Angeles Times:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2009/07/egypt-nationwide-rage-over-the-death-of-an-egyptian-in-germany.html

“Now we as Muslims and Arabs have a chance to show the whole world that real terrorism takes place in the West,” he added. “In the West, they don’t recognize us. There is racism there. The Germans are the enemies of God.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090706/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_germany

“We will avenge her killing,” her brother Tarek el-Sherbini told The Associated Press

And the Muslims can’t seem to leave the Jews out of anything:

Abdel Azeem Hamad, chief editor of the independent Egyptian daily el-Shorouk, said that if the victim had been a Jew, there would have been an uproar.

Hamad needs to be reminded of the difference between a “lone wolf” committing an illegal act, and an entire people being put into gas chambers.

At least one Egyptian blogger has suggested the entire matter an attempt to distract from Mubarak’s internal problems.

David should familiarise himself with Malkin’s apt expression “the religion of perpetual outrage” and the age-old Islamic strategy called “shirt of Uthman”.

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh!!!

I’m being mistaken for Benji?

BENJI?!

The incident may illustrate the lack of wisdom in “hate speech” legislation. Apparently el-Sherbini approached Axel to ask permission for her child to use a swing. Axel denied it and insulted her on the basis of her identity (Muslim, hijab, etc).

In the USA, it would wisely have stopped there. However, in Germany “hate speech” laws provided an outlet for her wounded pride, allowing her to sue. To win a “hate speech” case over an insult is not worth court time and certainly not worth her life – even if the animal’s insult had been allowed to pass, el-Sherbini would be alive today.

Ermin wrote, “I think you will find, if you were to do some digging (as opposed to smearing) that you will find that Axel W was not convicted of the crime of insulting religion (which I think is not actually a crime in Germany – but I may be corrected), but of threatening behaviour.”

Proof? The Guardian’s account shows behaviour which is insulting but makes no mention of threatening:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/07/german-trial-hijab-murder-egypt

“Unemployed Alex W. from Perm in Russia was found guilty last November of insulting and abusing Sherbini, screaming “terrorist” and “Islamist whore” at her, during the Dresden park encounter.”

Klinsharter, Nick, and Paul M make very good points.

ermintrude mis-states: “Or perhaps you think it is acceptable for anyone to march up to total strangers and start roundly abusing them, terrifying their small children, simply because of the way in which they dress.”

This is incorrect. Axel did not “march up to” el-Sherbini. El-Sherbini approached Axel to inquire about a swing. Axel responded with insults. That makes him rude but no more, as he apparently did NOT initiate the contact. Had he initiated the contact, it certainly would have been harassment. However, as he did not, he committed only the thought crime of “hate speech”.

How much comfort is the “hate speech” conviction to el-Sherbini now?

Absent from this thread (and from the minds of Egyptians clamoring for revenge) is any mention of the restrictions upon Islamic dress imposed by majority-Muslim states such as Turkey and Tunisia.

RE: Now then, pleasantries out of the way. How fucking dare you accuse me of being an anti-semite, you fucking presumptuous little cunt? etc etc etc etc.

Simple, really, I never called you an anti-semite, so it’s rather funny that you suggest that I should read your posts, when you clearly can’t read mine… and they’re generally short.

One last thing. All that absurd swearing and cussing doesn’t advance your “argument” one iota. Try reasoned argument instead. It works wonders.

Finally, I’m not from the UK, and calling me a “cunt” is stupid, not to mention sexist and boorish. Have a nice day, “ben”.