Harry's Place

Never mind the width, feel the votes!

Why was he let in?

The imam *leads* the prayer; the khatiib delivers the sermon [khutbah] after Jummah (Friday) prayers – usually one and the same person; but not always.

Any adequately knowledgeable (of ritual) person in congregation of two or more can be imam – and according to religious law (fiqh) they do not have to be of exceptional or even acceptable moral standing; but not everybody will be acceptable (on similar grounds) as khatiib.

question. I have a friend I have known from school, who openly supports Hamas because of its welfare projects, which he deems as ’socialist’, its supposed lack of corruption and its role as a ‘resistance’ group. Clearly he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but what do I do? He won’t listen to rational arguments, so, do I turn a blind eye to it or do I fall out with a friend about a political party in a country thousands of miles away which I have never visited?

“Why was he let in?”

Because he is Abdul Rahman al-Sudais, imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, that’s Mecca in Saudi Arabia, the Heart and sole of Islam, he is not Just some terrorist supporting ignorant savage from a village in some 7th century shit hole you know, he is akin to the pope and he preaches in what is Islam’s version of the vatican, what’s a matter with you are you some kind of Islamophobe or something?

So let me see if I understand you correctly ermintrude, are you saying that Abdul Rahman al-Sudais is just some asshole the Islamic ‘powers that be’ picked out of a little crowd, one friday afternoon, about 5 o’clock, and let him lead the prayers of the foremost mosque in Islam?

Is that what you are trying to say?

Can someone just explain something for me. Why on earth did the mosque receive half a million pounds of our money? Does anyone know why, and who decided they should receive it?

I’d imagine Labour did Joolz… God/Allah knows why but it might have something to do with votes although that is the cynic in me talking

I’d also like to know whether other religious institutions like synagogues, churches, Hindu temples and Sikh temples on that side of London receive similar or proportionate public money. Why the cash favouritism?

“He won’t listen to rational arguments, so, do I turn a blind eye to it or do I fall out with a friend about a political party in a country thousands of miles away which I have never visited?” (Wanderer)

Mmm… ask him why does HE care about Hamas? It is also thousands of miles away from him. And better healthcare* than that provided by Hamas you can find in hundreds of countries around the world.

*And with the extra benefits of not being used as human shield in return for your medical insurance.

Lots of religious organisations receive public money, for voluntary sector activities such as Youth Clubs, SureStart, feeding rough sleepers etc etc. Funding comes from various sources, most not overtly or directly under the control of elected representatives.

Why are Hamas (and Fatah) trying to kill Israelis when they get a state by following the Roadmap without engaging in violence.

To me this is the acid test that Hamas don’t simply want a State. They want all of Israel and millions of dead Jews.

Why was he let in?

Possibly because there were no credible promises from Labour’s Lord Ahmed and others – to get thousands of wide-eyed incendiary protesters out on the street threatening ‘public order’.

Harriet Harman also seems rather pre-occupied with introducing affirmative action programmes – or if you prefer ‘positive discrimination’ – for women in banking senior management and cabinet to worry about such trifling matters.

Either that, or it’s a very subtle part – beyond the ken of us oiks to discombobulate – of the government of the day’s BNP promotion programme.

Wanderer: I had a friend of sixty years standing, who in recent years developed a hatred for Zionism and couldn’t bear to hear me criticize not only Hamas or Hezbollah but also any friend of theirs – such as Galloway – in this country. Since I couldn’t exclude these things from my conversation, I decided to exclude him instead. Just to make clear, neither of us are Muslim or Jewish.

Ignorance on the part of the relevant authorities, lust for Muslim votes close to an election, stirring left wing sympathies for “revolutionary” Islamism and Israel hatred, fear of civil unrest if this scum is banned from the UK-all of these could be reasons why this man is here (in comparison to the fuss made about Geert Wilders who does not support political and religious violence.)

£0.5m to the mosis just the jizzya innit?

That would be “mosque”, not “mosis” – my finger slipped as I have not had my morning Bombay Sapphire yet.

….oh an Jacqui Smith is no longer Home Secretary, that role’s been taken over by the mild mannered Alan Johnson.

Does anybody any have any doubt at all that if the redoubtable Ms Smith were still in harness (yup that image popped up in my head too….sorree), that this Saudi Abdul Imam – pope of the Grand mosque geezer would have gotten the Wilders treatement?

Tangentially related… I’m listening to the Today program on Radio 4 for an hour at the moment between 6 and 7 in the mornings 3 or 4 days a week as I drive from Surrey to Southampton to do some work for a client. It’s fascinating stuff. What they don’t cover is just as revealing as what they do!

Maybe they’ll cover it tomorrow.

Good sermon, worth listening to through to the end, responsible and reflecting the very real concerns being raised across the UK at the height of the Israeli attacks on Gaza.

morning Bombay Sapphire yet

Bombay Sapphire is strictly an evening ‘chota peg’.

Mornings are strictly the domain of Tanqueray, it goes so much better with Muesli.

“Lots of religious organisations receive public money, for voluntary sector activities such as Youth Clubs, SureStart, feeding rough sleepers etc etc. Funding comes from various sources, most not overtly or directly under the control of elected representatives.” – Alan Ji.

I would like to see evidence for this claim. I have raised funds for a small Christian charity* and did not, could not, secure funds from local or central government. The work of the Salvation Army and local churches is as far as I am aware entirely supported by sympathetic business and private charitable bodies or the public.

Government funded initiatives are either run and directed by local or central government or accountable to it. Charities may certainly receive Gift Aid but I do not think Alan is referring to that.

I am appalled that the East London Mosque, a political body, is receiving anything, but half a million pounds? Is that for one year? That is incredible.

*Which, among other initiatives, with leaning skills partners provides English language classes for largely Moslem women, work I support whole heartedly.

“Bombay Sapphire is strictly an evening ‘chota peg’.

Mornings are strictly the domain of Tanqueray, it goes so much better with Muesli.”

Thanks Nick-I will try to remember that in future!

K, have you accepted that Qayyum endorsed the Declaration?

Plus, anyone whose divorce from reality is so great that they equate “solidarity” with Palestinian Arabs and murderous antisemitism will also receive my implacable opposition.

“Good sermon, worth listening to through to the end, responsible and reflecting the very real concerns being raised across the UK at the height of the Israeli attacks on Gaza.”

K Miah, sadly I did not find it reflected the view from Israel or the concerns across the UK (I wish!) about constant rocket bombardment of civilians by Hamas and its proxies over many years or the routine use of Palestinian human shields by Hamas fighters.

B xxx

Alec: K, have you accepted that Qayyum endorsed the Declaration?

No, have you accepted that he didn’t?

As the East London Mosque and London Muslim Centre have been shortlisted for a prestigious Charity Times Award 2009 under the Trustees Board category, I am sure everything is above board and shipshape, sorry, shitshape:

http://www.charitytimes.com/pages/charity_times_awards/index.htm

Don’t be a troll, K. Accuseds have tried, and failed, to be acquitted with a defence “I didn’t do it and all that evidence that I did is bogus”… they haven’t even managed to convince juries with witnesses who say “X’s word is good enough for me”.

“No, have you accepted that he didn’t?”

What makes you think that he didn’t?

I think it is uncontested that Qayyum attended this meeting. His name appears in the list of signatories.

If you are able to point me to a statement from this man explaining that he did not give permission to the organisers of the event to include his name on the list of signatories and asking for it to be removed, then that would settle the matter.

Does any such statement exist?

I’m thinking what Larkers is thinking.

If the government would give £500,000 to churches in deprived areas (like mine in Copeland) we might have a fighting chance of being able to do stuff that would fight the causes of BNP support within our communities.

Colin Wanderer: I had a friend of sixty years standing, who in recent years developed a hatred for Zionism and couldn’t bear to hear me criticize not only Hamas or Hezbollah but also any friend of theirs – such as Galloway – in this country. Since I couldn’t exclude these things from my conversation, I decided to exclude him instead. Just to make clear, neither of us are Muslim or Jewish.

Indeed Sir.

Occasionally, just occasionally, common sense shines through

Not entirely OT -have you seen Abbas’s opening speech at the Fatah conference? Very depressing.

have you seen Abbas’s opening speech at the Fatah conference? Very depressing.

Can you link, or better yet precis in a sentence.

Let me guess…
“We need to embrace the future of our people with our Israeli neighbours leaving sectarianism, religious strife and hate behind us. We intend moving rapidly on the roadmap to a fully independent, viable Palestinian state, one that can be counted amongst the free nations of the world. A state populated by an educated, healthy, tolerant, economically active people of goodwill. A state where the people cherish their children, where life is seen as precious, and one united in pursuit of a vibrant, wholesome future where the soocial and economic indicators are counted as amongst the very best in the World.”

Am I close?

I’m still not clear about what the mosque does with half a million pounds of our money, and I’m not clear about how much the other religious institutions of Jews, Christians, Sikhs or Hindus in that side of London receive of public money.

If there is cash favouritism, why is that so? How much money are British taxpayers giving to institutions like the east London mosque, that invites hate preachers under our subsidy, and why are they being subsidised when other institutions of other religions don’t appear to receive anywhere near the same level of public funding?

What is going on? We need an audit, people. This is as onerous and in the long term, as bad as the Preventing Violent Extremism funding free-for-all.

Abbas’s speech – Only if you read the official translation.

Me, I will wait for the MEMRI version.

“We need to embrace the future of our people with our Israeli neighbours leaving sectarianism, religious strife and hate behind us. We intend moving rapidly on the roadmap to a fully independent, viable Palestinian state, one that can be counted amongst the free nations of the world. A state populated by an educated, healthy, tolerant, economically active people of goodwill. A state where the people cherish their children, where life is seen as precious, and one united in pursuit of a vibrant, wholesome future where the soocial and economic indicators are counted as amongst the very best in the World.”

Am I close?”

We need a clock that counts down to yellow star day in Britain. I suspect I seriously suspect that Jews will be ‘relocated’ away from the London 2012 Olympic Games for ‘their own protection’.

@ Colin Wanderer: I have also found myself in almost exactly the same predicament as you; my solution was to terminate the friendship, as a) any respect I had for my friend as a person had by that time completely ebbed away, precisely due to the immunity of his position to reason and facts; and consequently b) to avoid punching him repeatedly in the face.
This was all compounded and made worse by the fact that my (ex) friend had a MA in History from Imperial College (or so at least he claimed at the time).

Not quite Nick…
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3756792,00.html
More like ‘none of it is our fault and we reserve the right to carry on blowing Israelis up.’
Note the remarks by Avi Dichter -I fear he may be correct.