Harry's Place

I happened to watch Soylent Green for the tenth time last night and always look forward to the poignant and pivotal scene when Sol goes to the euthenasia building.

My mind then went to Obamacare.

Gene, when Our Speaker Of The House claims people are swarming into town hall meetings with swastikas, she’s basically saying they are Nazis. When she says, like she did taoday, that they are “unAmerican,” she is saying basically the same thing.

The problem, Gene, is that Our President has a problem. he has hung his presitige on a two-part message. 1) the health care status quo is in crisis and the status quo is untenable; complete radical restructuring is required. 2) If you like your coverage and your doctor, you get to keep them.

The only way to resolve the contradiction is the Chicago Way:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/Sn8be4OOmdI/AAAAAAAAdN4/oqR8qcMJtdw/s1600-h/seiu+meeting.jpg

Well done, spectrum. By raising that particular canard, you are doing your bit to discredit the rightwing opposition.

As of course is former Gov. Palin.

Gene, when Our Speaker Of The House claims people are swarming into town hall meetings with swastikas, she’s basically saying they are Nazis. When she says, like she did taoday, that they are “unAmerican,” she is saying basically the same thing.

1. She said “carrying,” not “swarming into town hall meetings with.”

2. Disrupting and shutting down public meetings is unAmerican, whether it’s done by those on the right or the left. Of course it doesn’t make those who do it Nazis, which she didn’t say either.

I see Obama is flying by the seat of his pants by personally attending a Town Hall meeting and braving the protests – that is if the protestors manage to get an invite. I can’t help feel it is going to be stage managed so Obama gets an easy ride.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/08/protests_planne.html

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

OMG!!!! Gene! Please! Don’t report me. I’m sorry! I have a wife and kids. I can’t afford to end up in a Chicago burger!

Exhibit A: spectrum.

She was implying it, Gene. In both cases. We both know it.

I agree that disrupting and shutting down meeting is unAmerican, Gene. How much of that is really going on? What I see is people asking their Congresscritters why, for example, if the Public Option is so goddam hunky dory, why they voted to eschew it for themselves. And I see people get upset where a perfectly sensible question receives a bullshit spin answer.

Plus, there is a natural, understandable reluctance to turn over control of your health care to people who call you unAmerican when you criticize them. Aetna has yet to question my patriotism.

Exhibit B: the typical po-faced complete lack of humour of the typical American liberal.

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“Black man hands out flags at Healthcare Town Hall meeting. Gets beaten up for it, called the “N” word – Obama silent. Obama’s Black professor friend has difference of opinion with a policeman and Obama suggest the police are being racist Meanwhile, Pelosi suggest protestors are Nazi-like and “un-American”

The case of Kenneth Gladney, beaten-up by union activists for handing out a flag and political buttons. Chicago politics comes to a Town Hall near you!

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/08/interview-with-kenneth-gladney-man-assaulted-by-union-thugs-at-town-hall/

You can use that as Exhibt B if you like.

Now tell us that Gladney was a Republican stooge plant designed to get himself beaten-up.

Who’s behaving like the Nazis in this incident? Have any democrats condemned the beating? What of American Democracy and the Constitutional right to protest?

Bah!

Is the standard now that if a nation wide movement has at least 4 people who use Nazi imagery to smear their opponents, that movement is discredited? I would have far more sympathy for this point of view if it ever applied to anyone except conservatives. What I would ask Gene is why, if his claim that such things as this discredit their proponents, it never discredited the “anti-war” and anti-Bush protestors? I am not asking in a moral or “should” style, but purely on a practical political one.

Mesquito and Spectrum et al: The only ones going thug-like and crazy are mobs of Republicans stirred up by hate talk shows host like Limbaugh and Glen Beck that are trying to shut down all reasonable discussion of Obama’s healt care proposals through intimidation, shouting, screaming, smearing, ranting and raving. These are all the tea-baggers, birthers and other nuts squared and mixed together in one toxic hate-filled mess.

David All, there was no violence at all until your union thugs showed up.

Wow.

I don’t get this panic. I just don’t.

Palin is completely out of line here, Beck is out of line, it goes without saying that Limbaugh is beyond out of line – and people who don’t think health care is already rationed – by the insurance industry – are in denial.

In any case how do we get from a reasoned discussion about health care reform, which IS necessary, to Soylent Green and claims that Obama will send Trigg Palin to a death camp?

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/09/video-meet-the-mob/

Whoa! These people sure look scary. No wonder unions are having to physically assault these UnAmerican rioters.

Some people were bemused when Obama made a total dick of himself by rushing to the aid of a Latin American thug-ruler in the process of nationalizing a key industry whilst suppressing dissent. Not me.

And furthermore:

Any one of us can be left stranded, without any insurance at all. People literally die for this reason. People die because insurance carriers refuse coverage, won’t pay for effective treatment, and in the end what it comes down to is this: you’re worth, your life and health are worth, precisely what is in your bank account and/or whether you happen to have been born wealthy and/or are lucky, just plain lucky, and have a good job with good insurance.

As we all should now by now, ANY of those happy situations can end immediately and even wealthy people can find themselves out in the cold and up a creek.

So I don’t understand what the problem is with wanting to make decent health care available to ALL American citizens EVEN IF THEY HAVE BAD LUCK OR WERE BORN POOR OR IF THEY GOT LAID OFF OR IF THEY ARE ENTREPRENEURS, SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE, SELF EMPLOYED PEOPLE, OR ARTISTS.

Do you think small business owners and their employees, artists, self-employed people, people who lose their jobs, poor people, lower middle class/working people, or even rich people who have bad luck, should die because they’re poor or can’t afford insurance?

Hello?

Apparently so.

Apparently it’s ok for US to get lousy care and even die under the current system.

Yet we have people panicking and making claims that reform will send us to death camps.

The Right mirrors the Left, right down to Moore’s law. Frothing moonbat BusHitlerism was endemic against the last US administration, and not just on the fringe, and not just in the US.

The only difference is that the ‘liberal’ press are not egging them on and providing aid and comfort to an enemy with which the country is at war.

Mesquito and Spectrum et al: The only ones going thug-like and crazy are mobs of Republicans stirred up by hate talk shows host like Limbaugh and Glen Beck that are trying to shut down all reasonable discussion of Obama’s healt care proposals through intimidation, shouting, screaming, smearing, ranting and raving. These are all the tea-baggers, birthers and other nuts squared and mixed together in one toxic hate-filled mess.

Is your assertion that everyone who goes to a Town Hall meeting to make a protest is controlled by some Right-Wing radio host or a Republican plant?

Aren’t these the typical smear tactics of the Left? Object to the Government and you are un-patriotic. You WILL obey! O-ba-ma!

What colour shirts will the union recruits be wearing?

Did Kenneth Gladney deserve to be beaten up? Is he a radio-controlled robot? It seems he was the victim of some mob who attended.

I was wondering when Gene was going to post on this.

Mesquito: David All, there was no violence at all until your union thugs showed up.

Is this the line going out?

Hate mail sent to union activist: You socialist f—s have the nerve to say stop the violence at the town hall meetings when they weren’t violent until you p—ies showed up because your n—– leader obama said to??????
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/08/unions-receive-increasing_n_254704.html

I’m sure that we all condemn any use of violence and the deliberate disruption of public meetings over health care reform (yes?)

This atmosphere is not very conducive to a sensible discussion of health policy.

Out of curiosity, those of you who have experience in both the American and British (or any other country) health care systems, could you please tell me which you feel is better.

Right, mesquito, your Republican thugs were just outraged decent Germans ah I mean Americans defending themsevles against Jewish communists ah I mean trade unionists!

For a good essay about where all this tea baggers, birthers, nirthers and other ranters are coming from and where they have come from before in American history read: “Races, Taxes, Birth Certificates, and Eugenics: The Rise of a Postmodern Racist Movement?” at http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/9/763919/-Race,-Taxes,-Birth-Certificates,-and-Eugenics

Spectrum mentions Gladney. It’s a weird story. Apparently he was racially abused by a black union steward. There’s video footage of the ‘assault’ which shows him walking away and yet he needed hospitalisation and a wheelchair afterwards. Plus according to a local press report this new hero of the anti-health care reform movement has been having to ask supporters for contributions towards his hospital fees since he recently lost his job and is not insured!
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/7C2B91CFCB7B4D398625760D0008E6EA?OpenDocument

Oh please. Another Daily Kos link.

By the way, David All. What does birtherism have to do with health care? And what do either have to do with racism.

Rush Limbaugh, bless his heart, predicted long before the election that any criticism of President Obama would be dismissed as “racism.” He was tragically prophetic.

Nick’s got a point. The moonbat left, calling Bush “Hitler”, blaming the US for attacking ourselves even, was wrong – and so are the people bringing swastikas to Town Hall meetings and worse – threatening Obama, threatening our political system, disrupting peaceful meetings – threatening to destroy the fabric of our democratic life.

I think it was on CNN, Obama is getting many times the threats that Bush received.

The far right press is culpable here. So are idiots who apparently can’t think for themselves.

This isn’t democracy, it’s a form of mob rule.

It’s also very frightening. In the past this kind of incitement combined with unthinking panic and reaction has created really ugly situations and in fact Nazi Germany was exactly that, an outgrowth of hard times combined with racism, fear and demagoguery.

People, start thinking and talking calmly, start reading, start listening, start dealing with facts and please start resisting people who are obviously out to incite.

It wasn’t right to give aid to enemies overseas but it isn’t right to stir up hate and mob violence here at home either, folks, and threaten a necessary discussion with thuggery, threats and deliberate, bald-faced lies.

This reminds me all too much of discussions on the “progressive” left about Israel. People just tell straight up lies and beat down anybody with a different opinion by accusing them of being “right wing” or “Islamophobic” or some other baloney instead of discussing the issues and at least trying to deal with reality and actual facts.

It’s a weird mirror image. But this is actually more dangerous because it’s dealing with the very nature of America and other democratic states and whether we can have civil discussions, the core of democracy.

And also it’s a reflection of whether people in America are still capable of rational thought or whether we just react to whatever bullshit the worst of our media and political “leaders” want to throw out there.

So – can we all please calm the heck down?

Get the facts. Do some reading. Do some thinking, and consider the real implications of these ridiculous assertions by people like Sarah Palin and her unconscionable attempts to stir up hatred and fear.

BTW, just for the record I actually do believe there should be some basic Universal Healthcare in the USA which catches people with no healthcare whatsoever. There should be some National Health service for people on low incomes but it shouldn’t tax those who can afford to pay for their own healthcare. Private should not subsidy public and the Government shouldn’t be telling people with private care what they can and can’t do.

Illegals shouldn’t be included. Its a transparent ploy to buy minority votes.

Its just the way that Obama is trying to force it that has everyone’s backs up as well as the cost. I don’t think people trust Obama any more. That is reflected in dropping popularity polling

Sophia, thank you for your eloquent comments reminding us of the reality facing those without health insurance. Jako, thanks for the info on the Republican intimidation thug tactics and the truth behind their newest “Matyr”, Kenneth Gladney. Wonder if the Republicans will keep re-cycling this “Matyr” the way the Palestinians do theirs.

Mesquito, et al, read the post, you will see the connections and yes, Daily Kos or not, I think this writer makes a good deal of sense.

Yeah well no wonder. You paint a Hitler moustache on a guy often enough it gets people nervous:(

Anyway Spectrum finally said the bottom line: it’s the bottom line. People don’t want to help the poor. They don’t want to help self-employed people, small business people, people who’ve lost their jobs IF there’s any inconvenience to THEM.

They want a public option for those without insurance BUT they don’t want to pay taxes to support it.

What are we supposed to do, rob a Russian bank?

The nature of a democratic society absolutely depends upon a degree of revenue and resource sharing. Otherwise we have no highways, no army, no fire departments, no water – THINK.

Let’s be honest here: what you guys are REALLY objecting to is the idea the YOU might have to help somebody else via the tax system.

Well let me be honest.

I don’t like having to pay taxes to help support the army that helps defend YOUR right to be a selfish idiot but you’re (I assume) my fellow American and your right to speak is sacred and therefore I join all other Americans in paying taxes to support the army, the police, the fire department, etc, that defend you and protect you and your right to speak even though I disagree with you.

So why the hell can’t you guys help save other people’s lives? The lives and health of your fellow Americans? After all we’re paying taxes so that you’ll have the privilege of trying to deny US health care.

PS: aren’t these are the same people who blather on about “the right to life”?

Go f***ing figure.

Oh, I see, David All. It’s “postmodern” racism. People who don’t hold racist views, don’t do racist things, renounce racism, deplore racism, but oppose the President’s policies are, you see, racists in a “postmodern” way. That’s fucking charming. I shore wish I was smart like him.

It is a rather charming oddity of US conservative imaginings that during those truely halcyon days of Eisenhower and the Gipper, top rate taxes were 90% and 60ish% respectatively

The Gipper reduced that to 28 percent, Social Republican. As a result, the rich got out of the tax avoidance business and back into the wealth and job creation business, and their contributions in taxes increased. The Gipper, it seems, understood economics.

Aetna has yet to question my patriotism.

I’m sure, they are too busy questioning perfectly legitimate medical claims and turning them down any chance they get.

I’m sure, they are too busy questioning perfectly legitimate medical claims and turning them down any chance they get.

I’ve never filed a claim. But one of the nice things about living in a civilized country is that I have a contract with Aetna that can be taken to court. Where do people abused by the NHS take their complaints?

The Gipper or Knucklehead for the most politic name we had for Reagan in my family was the first conservative to gut the federal tax system creating monster size deficits and tripling the National Debt. The was repeated by Cheney/Bush creating the huge deficits that Republicans did not seem to mind until Obama became President and started using federal money to rescue the US economy instead of giving it away to the Big Rich the way Cheney did.

Yossi UK: I am a canadian who lived in the U.S. for 3 years to write about U.S. Healthcare. I have continued to write about U.S. healthcare for the past 10 years.

The Canadian system has its share of problems, mainly due to funding cuts by the federal govt to the provinces (who administer heathcare) during the 1990s. The result is a shortage of family physicians (especially in quebec), and overworked GPs and specialists.

However, these problems pale in comparison to those in the U.S. Without going into a long treatise, there are three main problems:
1-All those millions of uninsured people.
2-Healthcare linked to employment. That means that employees sometimes stay in jobs they hate just for the healthcare. It also means that small employers may be loathe to fire workers because it means they not only lose their jobs but their healthcare as well.
3-Pre-existing conditions aren’t covered. So if you have cancer, for example, you’ll never again get any insurance for anything related to cancer.

These are the massive flaws that Obama is trying to address. Unfortunately, it seems to me he’s going about it like Hillary, and there is so much $$ at stake, the healthcare powers that be — hospitals and insurance companies, mainly — will do ANYTHING to stop it.

I don’t know much about European health systems. My understanding is that the English public/private system doesn’t work very well, but that the German and French systems do.

I am not ideological about healthcare, other than that it should be universal. CAnada’s public only system definitely has its flaws and costs more per capita (GDP) than the French or German systems, though much less than the American system, which costs nearly 15% of GDP. So i wouldnt necessarily be averse to introducing similar public/private systems in Canada, if someone could make the argument it would improve waiting times and take the burden off overworked physicians.

I hope this helps, yossi.

I like the story of the congressmen from Texas who recently had a town hall meeting and was yelled at by senior citizens Republicans that they did not want a “government run health care” and then the Congressmen followed up and asked them, how many of them were on Medicare, nearly all raised their hands.

Now you know why 18% of Americans still believe that the sun revolves around the earth.

Mesquito -they usually don’t. The British have a strange sort of pride about not sueing for medical negligence and tend to look down their noses at those who do. Go figure!

Aren’t these the typical smear tactics of the Left? Object to the Government and you are un-patriotic. You WILL obey!

How could any supporter of the GWB administration have thought to label their opponents as traitors?

yeah – and it’s not like the left ever compared Bush to Hitler

Andrew Murphy, that says it all!

Israelinurse: Could that be an example of British stoicness?

David All -I don’t think so. To be stoic about something you have to be aware that it’s not good or right and that there is an alternative before you decide to put up with it or endure it. My impression of the relationship between the British public and the NHS is that the former are not aware that it could be much better and are therefore not in a position to demand what they are entitled to. They do not appear to think that they deserve any more than they get.

I find it quite funny that the left is flipping out over a bunch of seniors appropriating the tactics of the left.

Calling old folks Nazis and un-American unfortunately will come back to haunt the Democrats. And that is what Pelosi did even if she used a wink and a nudge.

Spectrum, you are spot on in your responses.

Vildechaye,

Thank you for you views on Canadian and US health care. They were very helpful.

The flaws you mentioned in the US system are clearly very problematic, especially the fact that insurance will not cover pre-existing conditions.

To me, when the US system works, it is the best in the world. I hope Obama can find a way to improve and remedy the problems, in a way that satisfies the majority of US citizens.

As for the UK system, there clearly are large problems ranging from an almost total lack of choice in which hospital to go to, or which doctor to see, to the rationing that means that certain potentially beneficial drugs are not purchased by the NHS, because their cost is not worth (in the eyes of those who make the decisions) the benefits they bring to patients.

It seems to me that the protestors carrying swastika signs are doing so NOT as a symbol under which to rally (as the real nazis did) BUT as a symbol of the way the government, against whom they are protesting, are acting.

Its GREAT to see the Left getting a taste of its own medicine.

I dont remember the Guardian or Daily Kos complaining about the Bush-Nazi stuff. In fact, I think they probably encouraged it.

Gene sadly misses the central point though. Obama is rapidly losing ‘moderates’ and ‘centrist Democrats’ by the thousand.

I rather like Obama, but he appears to be positioning himself as the black Jimmy Carter. You wont be allowed to govern America without the centre.

Don’t you know, Tory, that George W Bush is, in fact, a third-generation Nazi and will any day now slip away to his vast ranch in Paraguay? Don’t you read Daily Kos? David All does.

“I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.”

Barack Obama
September 17, 2008

Millions of Americans are without insurance BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BUY IT OR SIGN UP FOR IT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKCWbq18bNk

I joined the Crystal M. Quitty McWinky (aka Sarah Palin) Facebook page to have a bit of fun with the people there, but the absolute hysteria over Obama’s proposals are just frightening. Any attempt at rational argument against Palin “death panel” accusation produces a counter-accusation that you’re being paid by Obama. People there will deny point-blank that anyone is poor enough to need public health care. And if they are, well, doggone it, God made them that way.

Even the Spectator has to come out and say, no, the NHS has not murdered Stephen Hawking:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/5255761/stephen-hawking-has-not-yet-been-murdered-by-the-nhs.thtml

P.

Yossi: Yes, U.S. healthcare is fine if:

you have health insurance
you don’t have preexisting conditions
you have a job you like

i was often asked to compare health care in Canada and the U.S. when i was in the U.S. People did not seem to comprehend that when a system is universal, it can’t be quite as good as a non-universal system; after all, it’s serving 100%, not 70%. It’s like those excellent south african schools i keep hearing about. Sure they were excellent: they only catered to the 10% of the population that was white. Obviously such schools will be able to offer a bit more than a school in a democratic country where everybody gets roughly the same educational opportunities. Same with health care. You can’t compare 100% and 70%.

The Obama administration hires the unemployed to astroturf Health Care Town Halls:
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=15203

They’re advertising on Craigslist for spontaneous, outraged citizens to tell their story … for $11-16 per hour:
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=7742

But vildechaye, Our President insists that those of us who like our health care won’t have to change a thing!

… the approach to health care to which Palin was referring was none other than that espoused by key Obama health care adviser Dr. Ezekial Emanuel (brother of Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel).

You may not like this implication, but it is Dr. Emanuel’s implication not Palin’s.

Full text of William A. Jacobson’s analysis at:
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2009/08/inconvenient-truth-about-death-panel.html#comments

“While Emanuel does not use the term “death panel,” Palin put that term in quotation marks to signify the concept of medical decisions based on the perceived societal worth of an individual, not literally a “death panel.””

So she made it up.

You may as well call triage a “death panel”.

P.

But the British pay almost half of their wages into the NHS, National Insurance and other welfare schemes. Americans simply do not want to get taxed up the wazoo anymore, and Iraq and Afghanistan has been a waste we’ve pissed away trillions of dollars which could’ve improved the US healthcare system for the 10 million Americans that truly need it.
Vote Ron Paul.

The Promise

“I’m going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We’ll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies — they’ll get a seat at the table, they just won’t be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we’ll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process.”

Barack Obama
August 21, 2008

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/517/health-care-reform-public-sessions-C-SPAN/

The Reality

In one more sign that the U.S. no longer is a functioning democracy, the Obama Administration has struck a deal with Big Pharma: To win its support for health care reform, the Administration has promised that any reform legislation will ban the government from negotiating lower drug prices. So Big Pharma can charge whatever it wants for patented drugs. In return, the pharmaceuticals soon will begin a $150 million advertising campaign on behalf of reform.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/healthwellness/141875/obama’s_deal_with_big_pharma/

Anyone who is for this 1,000 page bill who hasn’t read it, first apologize and then shut up. Until you have read it, remain silent. After you have read it, obviously, you are entitled to your opinion.

What a tragedy, that a bill almost no one has read, including the President, most US Senators and most US Representatives, should be debated before being voted upon!

Has anyone here read this bill?

Gene?

You’ve read this bill, Gene, have you?

Are the four pictures reproduced here at all representative of the Tea Party protesters? Anyone with half an hour to spare can find out, without even having to attend one. Just Google ‘Tea Party pictures’ and look for sites with the names of particular locations. Skip the first two hits, since the Huffington Post has an ax to grind, and the few that are about literal tea parties with crumpets. The first two pages will provide you with pictures of recent Tea Party protests in Chicago, Kansas City, Ft. Lauderdale, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Salem (Oregon), and Delaware, but you can keep going. Of course, these are mostly compiled by participants putting their best feet forward, but you will notice a number of things:
1. There are hundreds of pictures featuring thousands of participants. It wouldn’t be easy to make them look much different from what they are.
2. All or nearly all of the demonstrators are totally non-threatening, and many brought their children along.
3. Their signs are nearly all obviously hand-made, and many are quite witty. Few are at all threatening or extreme, and very few have any resemblance to the ones reproduced here. (By the way, Pro-Obama signs held by counter-protesters are nearly all identical and mass-produced, and the left is right now advertising for paid protesters. Tea Partiers do it for free.)
Now think about what else we know about the protests this week:
Gatewaypundit (who lives in St. Louis) has a nice compendium of damning quotations from Obama and pictures from around the country here, along with many other posts on the general topic. All of the thuggery that has been caught on film has been directed at the Tea Partiers except for some shouting and banging on doors when a Florida congresswoman locked the Tea Partiers out of her supposedly open ‘Town Hall’ meeting while filling all the front rows with union members let in a side door. The idea that Tea Partiers are trying to shut down the opposition is simple projection. They are trying to make themselves heard, trying to get across just how disgusted they are by what Congress has been doing for the last year or so, and the left is trying to shut them down by, among other things, misrepresenting them as a bunch of swastika-waving maniacs. It seems to have worked on Gene.

‘Where do people abused by the NHS take their complaints?’

The courts…..

‘the rich got out of the tax avoidance business’ – Reeeeeealllllly.

Was Eisenhower mistaken then?

The American politcla parties are a disaster beyond repair. Perhaps the two-party system is inherently flawed.

The left just placed on the Supreme Court a vicious bigot who believes that female Latinas are inherently superior to white males, who are relegated to a category of less-human.

The right compares human co-operation (in the form of a national health plan which every other developed country has had for decades) to Nazism.

Sorry, sometimes I think Americans of BOTH parties are insane.

philo semite: she’s no “vicious bigot”. She made one statement — that i believe was correct when heard in context — that certainly could never be described as vicious, and making her out to be a bigot is ridiculous.

Biff: have you read it? don’t be stupid, people want universal healthcare, if this bill provides it, people will support it. end of story.

Mesquito: That’s to appease folks like you. And what he said is probably true, unfortunately. U.S. would be way better off without these mega insurers and hospital corp.’s and their outsized influence on the health care debate.

Sophia – “Palin is completely out of line here”

Was she? Her language was extreme, but was she wrong? We have NICE. They basically look at a medicine and decide if you are going to get it or not. For some people that means they will die early. How is that not what Palin said?

“and people who don’t think health care is already rationed – by the insurance industry – are in denial.”

Sure but rationed by cost and by HMO. You can shop around if you like. In Britain you have one choice: what the Government wants you to have. No more.

“Some people were bemused when Obama made a total dick of himself…”

Most people who’ve been watching his rise (and now slow decline) weren’t surprised in the least, of course…

“Gene?

You’ve read this bill, Gene, have you?”

He’s probably read the ‘Huffington Post’ take on it. Does that count?

It should, it’s probably more than the politicians supporting it have managed! :)

…and of course this makes us feel sooo smug and superior compared to those ‘dumb hicks’ protesting about the future of their healthcare system. Perish the thought we should ever have a public debate about our own ’shining beacon’ NHS and whether we deserve something better.

I’m mostly happy with the socialized health scheme in Israel. But I have private insurance that will enable me or my family to have a procedure done in the US if necessary.

At the “high end”, US healthcare is far superior to anything that exists elsewhere. I can understand why Americans would be scared of losing that – which they definitely will if the whole system is micromanaged by the govt as the Obama admin wants.

“The left just placed on the Supreme Court a vicious bigot who believes that female Latinas are inherently superior to white males, who are relegated to a category of less-human.”

Oh good Lord.

P.

Plus according to a local press report this new hero of the anti-health care reform movement has been having to ask supporters for contributions towards his hospital fees since he recently lost his job and is not insured!

He has medical insurance through his wife’s employment. He’s unemployed due to obamacomics and beat up by obama’s union thugs. He did not ask for contributions, his lawyer did. And, if people want to give him money, that’s their business.

I don’t think people trust Obama any more. That is reflected in dropping popularity polling

Lol yeah. Regular folks watch nutters carrying swastikas and immediately they stop trusting the president. That must be how it works, after all it worked on you.

Sarah Palin is saying that national health care means that the government will hire secret hit men to slaughter retarded children.

Now that you know the truth, I’m sure you’ll all be out there carrying Obama/Hitler signs too. As Crosby Stills Nash and Young sang “how can you run when you know?”

Any system of healthcare, either public or private, will always ultimately be about money. You get what you pay for, and it is irrelevant whether ‘you’ is an individual or a country. As moral human beings we are understandably squeamish about making that link between money and life, but it exists and cannot be ignored.
It also works both ways.
Whilst those living under a public system may find it offensive that regulating bodies such as NICE (silly name, I’ve always thought) deny the public access to certain drugs on the basis of cost vs effectiveness studies, those under a private scheme should also be aware that money plays its part in what they do or do not get.
Many years ago a comparative study (don’t have it to hand, I’m afraid) showed that the rate of heart by-pass operations in the US was six times greater than elsewhere.
This was shown not to be because Americans were six times more ill with blocked arteries than people anywhere else, but because of two factors -1) Psychologically, Americans in general are ‘doers’ -i.e. they have a more pro-active approach to medicine than countries such as France where the approach is much more conservative. 2) As unpleasant as it is for us to face it, surgeons make money out of operating on people.
In a public system in which the surgeon is on a fixed salary, regardless of how many people he operates on that month, the decision to advise surgery has different components to it than in a system in which that decision results in cash in the surgeon’s pocket.
I’m not saying that unscrupulous surgeons are operating on people who don’t need it in order to get rich quick, but doctors are human too and their decisions are based upon any number of factors, some of which are different according to the system in which they work.
Now surgery is a marvellous thing, if you need it, but it can also be a dangerous thing.
Personally, as a healthcare professional, I never take advice on major issues like surgery from a private doctor -always the public one. If the latter is of the opinion that I need surgery, then I may go to the private system to have it done.

He has medical insurance through his wife’s employment. He’s unemployed due to obamacomics and beat up by obama’s union thugs. He did not ask for contributions, his lawyer did. And, if people want to give him money, that’s their business.

It’s getting ridiculous around here when people are posting stuff like this.

…and of course this makes us feel sooo smug and superior compared to those ‘dumb hicks’ protesting about the future of their healthcare system. Perish the thought we should ever have a public debate about our own ’shining beacon’ NHS and whether we deserve something better.

Eh? The NHS does actually receive quite a lot of attention in public debate. Surely the point is that many of these protestors are seemingly bent on disrupting public meetings and are opposed to any government-led reform of health care in the US (coming out with statements like ‘keep your government hands off my Medicare!). Some opponents of Obama’s plans have posted here on what they would like to see happen and their views seem reasonable (even if I disagree with them). Why can’t a similarly sensible discussion take place instead of all the shouting, screaming, placard waving and Nazi-comparing? Surely even right-wing Americans should want that to happen since health care is such an important issue? Coming up with suggestions for reform instead of pouring vitriol on the President would reflect much better on Obama’s opponents.

Out of curiosity, those of you who have experience in both the American and British (or any other country) health care systems, could you please tell me which you feel is better.

Hmm, well, I can give you these two examples. One person lives in the UK and is pregnant. At 16 weeks she experienced some problems and called the midwife. She turned up, as requested to the Maternal Assessment unit where she was seen immediately by a midwife and later by a consultant obstetrician. She was assessed and scanned, nothing bad was found, and was sent home. The whole process, including waiting around for the consultant, took about 3 hours. No copayments, no hanging around in the ER for hours and hours, no bills.

A friend was pregnant and in the US. She attended a clinic for a routine scan (paid for by her) and a problem was spotted. Fortunately she was covered by her travel insurance and underwent a couple of procedures to try and save the baby. She was later flown home first class, again covered by her insurance. She was treated like a VIP throughout.

However, I do not care to imagine what would have happened to her and her daughter (now 2) had she been an uninsured US citizen.

The thought of being ill and poor in the US scares the ruddy crap out of me, it really does.

However, I do not care to imagine what would have happened to her and her daughter (now 2) had she been an uninsured US citizen.
The thought of being ill and poor in the US scares the ruddy crap out of me, it really does.

She would have been admitted to a hospital with a full level neo natal ICU and received top care. I say this as a former nurse who worked in both public and private hospitals in OB, and neonatal and pediatric ICUs.

We have NICE.

NICE is an authority of the NHS and its decisions are limited to the NHS. It doesn’t stop you getting private treatment on your health insurance, nor does it forbid you from seeking treatment abroad, as very many do.

Sarah Palin is saying that national health care means that the government will hire secret hit men to slaughter retarded children.

Now who’s the nutter? She said that there will be panels who determine whether to withhold life saving medicines/treatments/surgeries as they do in Canada and the UK. Worse, if they also make it illegal to obtain it on your own, as the also do in Canada and the UK.

I have to laugh. Those of you who claim that you understand US healthcare do not have a clue. Frankly, I get queezy over UK healthcare. It seems so backwards to me. Anyway, it looks like obamacare is going to fail – as it should.

Worse, if they also make it illegal to obtain it on your own, as the also do in Canada and the UK.

Can you name some of the illegal medicines/treatments/surgeries that are forbidden to private patients in private health facilities in the UK but allowed in the US?

She would have been admitted to a hospital with a full level neo natal ICU and received top care

No, she wouldn’t have. She went for a scan at 18 weeks not because she was experiencing any problems, but because of her travel schedule. She would not be in the UK for her 20 week scan.

Also, a neo-natal unit would have been useless. Unless Jesus happened to be doing a shift there, they would not have been able to do anything for a baby born at 18 weeks.

Point being, she wouldn’t have had that scan at all if she’d been a US citizen.

The best apprtaoch is a combination of public and private mechanisms

Canada’s health care has a great many flaws stemming from a lack of money; long waits, rationing of procedures and restrictions on which drugs ( again because of cost) are available.

The coverage isn’t ‘universal’ in that some surgeries, procedures and drugs simply can’t be accessed for lack of funds.

And people with money CAN opt out and get treatment in private clinics.

I posted a video on another health care thread about a week ago highlighting some of the problemes. Steve Crowder, a Canandian from Montréal, ‘toured’ a few of the public clinics seeking a blood test and was told on two occasions by personnel in the public sector to seek help from a private Montréal clinic, one that will do the test….

for 7 or 8 hundred dollars.

America long led the world in protecting high-wage, high-skilled, high-status jobs both against the exportation of that labour to un-unionised, child-exploiting sweatshops, and against the importation of those sweatshops themselves. She could until recently say that she led the world in that she “did not seek for monsters to destroy”.

For she is the country of big municipal government. Of strong unions whose every red cent in political donations buys something specific. Of very high levels of co-operative membership. Of housing co-operatives even for the upper middle classes. Of small farmers who own their own land. And of the pioneering of Keynesianism in practice. Universal public healthcare provision is not only a natural extension of this, but has long been the vital missing link in it.

America is not in the position of Britain in 1945, when the National Health Service was in all three manifestos and therefore bound to happen, so that, even though it was very new and on the brink of bankruptcy, the Tories made no attempt to abolish it when they returned to office in 1951. But much as happened here will happen there: within a few years of the introduction of universal public healthcare, everyone will wonder how they ever got along without it; and within a few years of that, they will have forgotten that they ever did. The defeat of the current proposal would not make the matter go away. It is going to keep coming back until it happens, so it might as well happen now.

Israelinurse: Thank you for your comments, especially your reply to my question.

Mrs. Trellis, you are not alone. I would be scared to be in a position where I did not have health insurance and I am single. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be married with a family and not have health insurance.

This morning saw on CNN, an elderly lady, persumebly on Medicare, ranting that Obama’s health care plan was “the first step towards Socialism”!
As the old saying goes: None so Blind as those who Will not see.

Note: In the USA, whenever you hear someone who is ranting about some proposal being “socialism”, you hear another victim of Republican Smear Propaganda in the tradition of Joe McCarthy and Richard Nixon.

Trellis: What is your point? That an uninsured US citizen in the UK would not received treatment? You make no sense because you’re obsessed with bashing the US healthcare system and then I’m suppose to read you mind? LOL

This is what I mean about the NHS being backward:

Also, a neo-natal unit would have been useless. Unless Jesus happened to be doing a shift there, they would not have been able to do anything for a baby born at 18 weeks.

Depending on what’s going on, mother could be admitted and delivery delayed until the baby is viable. At that time, a neo natal unit is critical. A mother without insurance would not be denied this.

Can you name some of the illegal medicines/treatments/surgeries that are forbidden to private patients in private health facilities in the UK but allowed in the US?

Could you not mis-state what I said? Can you use google? Then use it.

She said that there will be panels who determine whether to withhold life saving medicines/treatments/surgeries as they do in Canada and the UK. Worse, if they also make it illegal to obtain it on your own, as the also do in Canada and the UK.

This is what you said. You obviously know of these life saving medicines/treatments/surgeries available to patients in the US and “illegal to obtain on your own” in Canada and the UK. So answer the question. What are illegal medicines/treatments/surgeries that are forbidden to private patients in private health facilities in the UK in Canada but permitted in the US?

If anyone wants to get a glimpse (metaphorically speaking) of the inability of US conservatives to get a rational grip on the healthcare debate try the last two episodes (167-168) and listen to the garbage Meryl Yourish in particular repeats. I have actually quarrelled with the two contributers via the comments section about the lazy stories they use.
What astonishes me is that nowhere in these discussions does anyone talk about the poor? The poor in the USA cannot afford the private healthcare that they endlessly praise.

I’ve argued that there is a conservative case to be made for healthcare reform (speaking for myself, I am 100% in favour of the NHS in Britain) but that attacking the British system is stupid. They don’t know what they’re talking about, they have very strange ideas about British society and they’re all well off.
You do not argue against Obamacare by attacking the strongest examples of state healthcare. There is plenty to attack on Obamacare – try Charles Krauthammer.
But the popular conservative groups cannot articulate why they hate it so much. My gut feeling is that the bottom root of this is selfishness – “individual responsibility” equals the poor being responsible for their own penury and early deaths. These are disgusting sentiments that I thought we’d lost in the early 20th Century.

Richard, such sentiments are still considered okay here in this Bastion of supposed Free Enterprise.

Hasan -there are instances in the UK in which a person is denied a particular medicine by his local health authority -usually, but not always new cancer treatments -on the basis of the infamous post-code lottery, even if a doctor reccomends it.
If, however, the patient decides to buy these drugs privately, he is then forced to pay for any other treatment he would usually get on the NHS.
When my mother needed chemotherapy we enquired about the possibility of her having it at home instead of in hospital as our local hospital has a very bad record on MRSA, my mother detested hospitals anyway and I am qualified to administer such drugs. We were told that if we went down that route we would have to pay for every other drug besides the chemo and any other treatments she needed.

Here is an interesting column by Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post pointing out the Health Care debate is really about two issues that should be separate. Read “Behind the Rage, a Cold Reality” at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/10/AR2009081002455.html

Don’t you read the papers, Hassan? What Israeli nurse describes has been all over them dontcha know.

I understand very well and it means that certain treatments and medicines are not available on the NHS. The spectre has been raised of socialized medicine meaning that these treatments become illegal. Saying that they are not available on the NHS is not the same as saying that they are illegal. My question referred to naming “illegal medicines/treatments/surgeries that are forbidden to private patients in private health facilities in the UK in Canada but permitted in the US.” Now can somebody answer it?

Hasan, I guess the silence following your last question is your answer.