Harry's Place

DavidT you one man war against orthodox judaism in general and yad l’achim in particular is getting boring. Isn’t Harry’s place about moving forward with the left, rather than attacking yad l’achim and supporting misisonaries?

It’s been explained to you time and time again about the war the messianics are making against jews and judaism in Israel. Go learn something about *why* Israel is defending itself against messianic evangleical christians and then come back when you’ve something new to say. *Yawn*

These guys record speaks for itself.

Go learn something about *why* Israel is defending itself against messianic evangleical christians

“Israel” doesn’t “defend itself against messianic evangelical Christians”. The activities of Yad Le’Ahim are explicitly against Israeli law and most Israelis regard them with either disgust or bemusement.

Of course, Yad Le’Ahim, like West Bank settlers, are allowed to defy Israeli law without being called into account. It is mostly a matter of dirty political compromises, essentially allowing blatant illegality in exchange for votes.

When past Israeli PM allegedly accepts a bribe from a US businessman, he is (quite rightly and properly) taken to court. But when just about every Israeli PM in memory hands over state assets, tax money and a “get out of jail card” permission for illegality in exchange for votes in the Knesset, this is considered politics. And it stinks.

The only thing that’s boring, eli, is the knee-jerk defensiveness of certain Israeli commenters.

It’s been explained to you time and time again about the war the messianics are making against jews and judaism in Israel. Go learn something about *why* Israel is defending itself against messianic evangleical christians

Yeah, it’s absurd that there are people who are allowed to try to persuade you to follow another religion, yet Yad L’Achim can’t abduct the odd ‘lost’ child here and there!!??!!!

It’s political correctness gone mad, so it is.

eli, fighting for human rights and freedom of religion is not boring.

David, clearly you don’t know anything about Israel.
1) No one will convict them if they have Knesset support (ends justify means etc etc….).
2) Eli Yishai is of Shas. His party’s mandate is to turn Israel into a Jewish religious state. You can’t honestly expect him to separate state from religioun of his own free will?

One day the human race may wake and realise that their world would be a better place if all religions and racial definitions according to religious preference waas consigned to the dustbins of history.
There is no evidence that any form of supernatural being exists or could have existed or even will exist, that can be proved or disproved.
Religion is a dangerous construct formed in primitive minds. Its about time a-theists came out of the closet and brought some sanity to this world.

this is nothing to do with a war against orthodox Judaism and everything to do with people illegally asserting their will on people and are supported by politicians.

Eli, the Harry’s Place banner is “liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear”. I’ve always thought this was a bit pretentious, but it seems to apply pretty well to you (and the large numbers of like minded posters who are presumably going to descend on this thread).

eli, your extreme description of DavidT waging a one man war against orthodox judaism exposes tragically that there is so much work to be done in recovering from the trauma of 2000 years of coerced conversion of Jews by Christian oppressors. We need to acknowledge this and work on having the self confidence to emerge from this state of terrorised beleaguerment.

What infuriates me is that Chabad is involved in supporting Yad leAchim. I once had a letter published in the JC challenging how the Chief Rabbi shuns engaging with Reform yet embraces Chabad and pointed out the problematic schismatic nature of Chabad. A young nephew who was becoming more religious was upbraided by the Rabbi at a local Chabad for the terrible things his mother was writing about Chabad- he had just seen the surname and assumed it was the boy’s mother, a prominent woman in Jewish child education (note to Michael Rosen- it was after several instances of such confusion with repurcussions for innocent parties that I started using a nom de plume). I loaned the boy the book The Rebbe the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference by Professor David Berger and many articles about what goes on in Chabad headquarters in Crown Heights, but it was not until he visited Crown Heights himself that he came back shaken by what he had seen and stepped away from Chabad.

I personally have no objections to any sect, including Chabad, doing their own thing, but it is this double standard of who is acceptable and who is vilified I object to.

Gev if you want to fight for human rights, then fight for us to be protected from these missionaries that want to deny us the right to live as jews in our own land (as they have throughout the ages- no change there).
ok you’ve convinced me. i have held off doing this before, but its finally time. I’m going to make a large donation to yad l’achim. Thankyou for the impetus to do that.

“In August 2009, Yishai attended a welcoming party for busloads of recently-abducted Jewish children…..”

So if I understand this post correctly, a large number of children have been and are being abducted and have subsequently been held presumably against their will and against that of their parents. The Israeli authorities are doing nothing about it because a government minister supports the organization that has carried out the abductions. Is this what you are alleging? Could you supply some more details?

Eli

Reading David T’s terrible account about Anglicans who have rejected their Messiah and become Jews, thereby losing the life everlasting, has encouraged me to give a similarly large sum to Jews for Jesus!

The question that I have in reading this is how powerful is this group.
You have pointed to a few vague non verified events.
The web site is disturbing. However, if it is just a small fringe group, I am not concerned.
Your argument would be much stronger if you showed a real connection between Yishai, and Yad l’achim (other than some philosophical similarities), or gave substantial verification that Yad l’achim is actually effective, and more importantly is effective due to Shas’ help.
There is plenty of material available to use to criticize Shas. You have fallen short in connecting them to this group, and frankly, I think you should steer clear of these kinds of unsubstantiated claims.

Stan

‘archbishop cassock’.
thats just why im supporting yad la’chim. because ultimately i see you’re fighting a war aginst us- you just want to convert the jews (albeit in the name of ‘liberty’) , and we dont want to let you. We dont try and convert non jews to judaism- so be fair and dont try to convert us to your religion. Why cant you just leave us alone and go convert lapsed christians back to christianity? If you believed in liberty you’d leave us alone- but you can’t and never will, because its a war against the jews.

“We dont try and convert non jews to judaism- so be fair and dont try to convert us to your religion.”

Yet Christians do convert to Judaism.

“Why cant you just leave us alone and go convert lapsed christians back to christianity?”

And deprive you of salvation?

“If you believed in liberty you’d leave us alone- but you can’t and never will, because its a war against the jews.”

Nonsense. We are motivated by precisely the same love of our fellow as Yad L’Achim activists are.

However, we’ve given up using the muscle of the state to back our efforts, and Yad L’Achim should do so too.

‘And deprive you of salvation?’

You condescending missionarising little git. Go save someone else for a change.

Shas:
Le’hachzir Chashecha Le’Yoshna
להחזיר חשכה ליושנה

Huh?

Are you really suggesting the ONLY people I can persuade to become Christians, are those who started off life as Christians?

Like the anti-Missionary, Klugger?

What made him so well suited to working undercover among proselytizing Christians, what allowed him to pass so naturally as a true-believing Christian, is that he knew whereof he spoke: Klugger was born and raised Catholic. At age 13, he gave up Catholicism for Pentecostalism fire-and-brimstone evangelical Christianity.

“My family was very religious. There was a priest in every generation,” he notes. By age 18, he says, he’d already evangelized “a minyan-and-a-half” – 15 people – for Jesus.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11108/a-matter-of-faith

Or another prominent Jewish anti-Missionary activist, Rabbi Rubenstein:

“Rabbi Y-Y Rubenstein was born James Robinson to a Protestant father and Catholic mother in working class, gangland Glasgow”

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/wise-guys-1354988.html

Shouting, shouting, everybody’s shouting, we have an observer who has already remarked that our conduct has pushed him further into a-theism. He says there is no evidence for our Creator, and to be fair he ought to be able to find that evidence in the conduct of His people – grace, brothers, grace. The things of which we speak are far greater than our manners pay tribute to. If you know Him, and love Him, show it and let’s have this conversation as such that know Him should.

From a review of Reform Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbok’s Messianic Judaism:

Here the author offers “a more tolerant view of the Messianic movement,” but does not mention the names of any proponents of this model. Since modern Jewry is no longer united by belief and practice, “pluralists maintain that the exclusion of Messianic Judaism from the circle of legitimate expressions of the Jewish heritage is totally inconsistent” (p. 210). In many respects, he says, “Messianic Jews are more theistically oriented and more Torah-observant even than their counterparts within the Conservative and Reform movements” (p. 212). In this model, using the image of the seven-branched menorah he says, “Messianic Judaism should be seen merely as one among many expressions of the Jewish faith, [alongside] Hasidism, Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and Humanistic Judaism” (p. 212). Cohn-Sherbok concludes that the pluralist model, in which Messianic Judaism is included, “is the only reasonable starting point for inter-community relations [among Jews] in the twenty-first century” (p. 213).

On the other hand, I remember being told that a renowned Jewish scholar was once asked which religion is the most similar to Judaism. He replied was: “Chabad-Lubavitch”.

Your argument would be much stronger if you showed a real connection between Yishai, and Yad l’achim (other than some philosophical similarities), or gave substantial verification that Yad l’achim is actually effective, and more importantly is effective due to Shas’ help.

Stan, did you see the Yishai quote above?

“Previously, I only knew of Yad L’Achim’s intensive Pidyon Shvuyim activities through the regular reports I received from Harav Lipschitz, the head of this important organization…”

Why is Eli Yishai receiving regular reports from Yad L’Achim, and why does he describe it as an important organisation?

eli: “Gev if you want to fight for human rights, then fight for us to be protected from these missionaries that want to deny us the right to live as jews in our own land.”

I’ve no problem with anyone expressing their views or even funding an organisation to promote their own religion such as Yad L’Achim, as long as it is legal and non-violent. Donate away & mazal tov!

Richard B

I think that Dan Cohn-Sherbok’s thesis is a half-fair one: but only because non-Orthodox forms of Judaism have given up the claim that Judaism is a divinely revealed faith, and instead argue that it is divinely inspired. In other words, these forms of Judaism are self consciously human responses to their perception of divine will.

So yes, in that sense, orthodox forms of Christianity (and Islam) are closer to orthodox forms of Judaism: in that they claim to be revealed.

Similarly, Liberal Judaism has a lot in common with ’sea of faith’ and other forms of humanist Christian traditions.

I think Dan Cohn-Sherbok is being slightly mischievous. The truth is, Judaism has a set of pretty settled core concepts, as does Christianity. Certainly, some sects have adopted a theology that abrogates some of those doctrines. But you can still tell what those religions basically are.

That is why, when “Messianic Jews” tell me what they believe and what they don’t believe, I am able to recognise that they’re explaining Protestant theology to me.

People change their minds during the course of their lives: in religious matters as much as with regard to any other set of philosophical beliefs. That they are able to do, without fear, so is the hallmark of a genuinely free society.

Exactly. David T ‘gets it’.

Let’s hope that AGW sceptics and those married to or considering marrying/going out with/hanky-pankying with Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Orthodox Christians, Hindus and Sikhs are given that same freedom that they are, for the most part, denied at the moment in the UK.

The Unconservatives have so far talked the talk (to a certain extent) on freeing Britons from the purblind ideological straightjacket of the Liebour years – ‘live and let live’ should be the motto – but will the Cameroons walk the walk as the UK ’sleepwalks into segregation and inter-ethnic conflict’?

Richard B:

Yes, the LCJE were the people I had in mind, when I wrote about those groups which “seek the conversion of Jews as a particular prize”.

http://www.lcje.net/about.html

I find this sort of ’special interest’ deeply creepy.

Is anybody going to answer my question?

Is it ok for me to “rescue” Klugger and Rubenstein from Judaism?

a religion which at one stage adopted a near-prohibition on conversion, no doubt in part out of fear of violent reaction from the religious, social and political order which surrounded them

Actually, David, the reason is that Emperor Nero decreed that only the official Roman religion could actively seek conversions in the Roman empire. The Jews, being good Roman citizens, obeyed. Clearly, from the history of the Arabian peninsula, some Jews outside the Roman empire, did seek to convert non Jews. After Mohammed, this clearly was not an option. Simple, no?

“Emperor Nero decreed that only the official Roman religion could actively seek conversions in the Roman empire. The Jews, being good Roman citizens, obeyed. ”

Yeah

There was also the little matter of the Jewish-Roman War. And then the destruction of the Temple (at the end of the war, after Nero had himself gone the way of all flesh).

And then the next 2000 years.

No, Archbish. Nor is this lot acceptable.

I guess for my religious identity, as long as people are comfortable with me as a person, that’s what matters. I want to, and do, have Jewish and Christian friends.

I can attempt to define myself or my beliefs, but I can’t tell somone else what to think about me. That’s for them to decide – so long as they respect me as a human being and I respect them, then there’s no problem.

What I can’t accept, and I don’t think anyone should accept, is the idea that government ministers would praise a religious extremist group that would attempt to tell me what I should and shouldn’t believe, and threatens violence when I don’t acquiesce.

A group which identifies me and my co-religionists as apostates to be destroyed like Amalek so that Eretz Israel can be cleansed of idolatry.

This assumes I’m an Israeli citizen, which I’m not. In fact I can’t currently become an Israeli citizen because my beliefs are considered “alien” to a state which was founded to protect me and my family from racism and fascism.

I find this fundamentally unfair and non-sensical.

>> That is why, when “Messianic Jews” tell me what they believe and what they don’t believe, I am able to recognise that they’re explaining Protestant theology to me.

With the Reformation, a lot of heat was taken off Jews (in Western Europe, at least), ‘cos many of these new believers were trying to strip away all the cant and to ‘go back’ to the roots in Judaism of their scriptures (like dear old Praisegod Barebone who tried to instigate Mosaic Law in England). I think for some time afterwards, the RCC referred to Prods as Judaicized Christians.

Is anyone going to answer my question (above)? The abduction of children, their being held against their will, and the failure of the authorities to act against it is a matter of very great gravity. If this is indeed happening, as alleged in this post, the implications are major. Are there any more details concerning this alleged aspect of Yad l’achim’s activities?

Blue – for more on Yad L’Achim abducting children have a read on this piece:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418637255&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Yad L’Achim often claim the women want to be rescued. In some cases this may be true.

But imagine this situation:

An Arab woman in West Jerusalem married to a Jew calls the Al-Aqsa Brigade asking them to rescue her and her children from the abusive husband. They come and “rescue” her, and then the Palestinian Authority celebrate the fact that Muslim children have been rescued from hostile Jewish settlements! It’s crazy.

I’m not saying there aren’t abusive relationships, and these women may well be genuinely relieved to escape them. But if you listen to what Yad L’Achim talk about, it’s not about rescuing women. (If it were, then what about all the Jewish women married to Jews who are in abusive relationships?) To me it seems to be about stopping halachic Jews being brought up as Arabs.

Have a look around the Yad L’Achim website and you’ll get a pretty good idea of what they’re about:
http://www.yadlachimusa.org.il/

For Yishai to support them is disgraceful in my view.

Yad L’Achim admit they are often in trouble with Israeli police. In the above video, Gabriel Sanders talks about having to pay off drivers, and other people. So I don’t understand, if Yad L’Achim often break the law and get in trouble with the police, why a government minister is singing their praises? It’s chaos.

I believe that there should be people responsible for maintaining the core principles of Judaism – but not by attacking or denouncing others. I like the quaintness of Judaism but have more affinity with the traditions and culture rather than strict adherence to the faith of Judaism. I like the fact that I was brought up to make great chicken soup and know how to make chopped liver and latkes. I treasure a great smoked salmon beigel. I support anyone prepared to be more religious and God fearing than me because its their choice and they are keeping the ethic and core of Judaism alive.

I find even Liberal Jews have made too religious a choice in their following of Judaism for my liking. I can’t really stand a Liberal shul because it still has that element of God worship without the deep and serious Premiership Standard of Orthodoxy.

Pork eating Russian Jews are no different from pork eating UK Jews. I always used to argue, as I downed extra crispy bacon in an American breakfast with soft scrambled eggs and hash browns (drool!) that I did so with a conscience rather than doing it as something natural.

I can understand Orthodox Jews being disgusted and I have heard amongst my Orthodox friends that they don’t consider Liberal Jews are “Real” Jews.

Being Jewish is wonderful. You inherit a cultural heritage and you get to choose how religious you want to be and you still remain a Jew.

Just should point out, the above case refers to a pregnant woman rather than a woman with children, and the boyfriend was allegedly abusive.

Has anyone seen the film Kadosh?

There are plenty of cases of abuse against women in Orthodox marriages, as well as in Arab marriages or in marriages within any culture. So why are Yad L’Achim singling out mixed Arab-Jewish marriages (and not Arab-Arab or Jewish-Jewish marriages in Israel)?

We can all work out the answer.

eli:

We dont try and convert non jews to judaism- so be fair and dont try to convert us to your religion. Why cant you just leave us alone and go convert lapsed christians back to christianity? If you believed in liberty you’d leave us alone- but you can’t and never will, because its a war against the jews.

Who’s this ‘us’? Who made you spokesman for all Jews and guarantor of their continuing doctrinal purity? If you don’t want to be converted, that’s fine. But in a free society, people ought to be free to convert and to seek the conversion of others – provided it is by legal, non-coercive means. You do not have a right to corral all Jews into some isolated paddock where no one can seek their conversion and they not be free to accept it.

You act as though you oppose others imposing their religions on Jews, but in reality you’re the one trying to impose adherence to Judaism upon them by preventing anyone from trying to convince them otherwise. Obviously it is the right of organisations like Yad Le’Ahim to perform counter-missionary activity, but not through coercive or illegal methods and not by interfering with the rights of others to seek converts.

There are pretty strict legal rules, in all jurisdictions, over the awarding of custody between parents who have broken up.

Generally speaking, sending in freelancers to ‘rescue’ children isn’t part of the process.

“The only thing that’s boring, eli, is the knee-jerk defensiveness of certain Israeli commenters.”

I think what you pick up is the natural and understandable anger that many Israelis feel when the citizens of a nation that collaborated in the Holocaust and acted in a manner in post-war Palestine that would have done credit to the SS attempt to teach them various lessons. There are many Israelis still alive whose families were murdered because of British conduct during the 1930s and 1940s, and others who remember well British troops murdering death camp survivors, strolling past as others were being killed and forcibly returning many to camps in Germany.

You know, it is very easy for you to sit in your front room and smugly type such words. Your country has not been under continual attack for over sixty years. Your country is not constantly held to a despicable double standard by most of the world when she tries to defend herself. The people of your nation are not hated beyond all reason by much of the world because of their religion or ethnicity. Your country was not made up in great part by survivors of a genocide wrought by the Nazis with the active and joyful collaboration of countless millions in Europe. You must also not forget that that genocide in very many of its aspects took its inspiration from centuries of Christian persecution of Jews and could not have occurred in the first place without the deep well of European anti-Semitism that still exists in Europe mainly because of Christianity. It is Christians that Nazis relied on to keep their killing machine running at full bore and it was officials of the church to whom they turned to inspire those who looked the other way and betrayed and murdered and rounded up and transported and stole (not just the property of Jews but even their children, thousands and thousands of them).

Eli

Why cant you just leave us alone and go convert lapsed christians back to christianity?

Oh, let me add one more poor lost sheep to my list of Christians who have been lost to Judaism, and who – according to you – I ought to be concentrating my efforts on.

We’ve had the anti-Missionaries, Klugger and Rubenstein.

Yad L’Achim spokesperson Gabriel Sanders – the chap who is worried about secular Jews becoming like ‘old goys’ – ALSO started off as a Christian:

This blog describes my journey from being a Catholic to a charismatic, evangelical minister to an Orthodox Jew.

http://ministersjourney.blogspot.com/

You’d have no objection to me “rescuing” his children for Jesus?

Is this guy deputy PM, deputy foreign minister or interior minister. He seems to be variously described as all three.

He is deputy PM and Minister for the Interior.

As I’ve said, I find the idea of the Church having a special mission to the Jews a very creepy thought. I also acknowledge that much of the last 2000 years – certainly from the conversion of Constantine onwards – have seen pretty horrendous persecution of Jews, much of it to a greater or lesser extent, theologically rooted. I also accept that Jews – like, frankly any other religion – are likely to feel ever so slightly betrayed when one of their number joins a rival religion.

This has nothing to do, however, with the conduct of these guys, and their links to the state. That is a completely separate issue.

The starting point is that, in a free society, there will be two way traffic. Indeed, there obviously IS two way traffic – as it appears that three of the most active counter missionaries were born Christians, and some of them were in fact missionaries to Jews themselves, before switching sides!

If that happens, people really ought to be a little less defensive about this conversion business.

Eli you say you want to live as Jews in our land. If so, you have to realise that others want to live as Jews in our land too. Your kind of Judaism apparently is different from mine if you consider that forcing others to bend to your will or to adopt your vision of correctness is the right thing to do.

Israel is a democracy not a sect-run fief.

People like those described have driven probably more Israeli Jews away from Orthodoxy than they have ‘’saved”. Who wants to be associated with a bunch of thugs?

I certainly don’t agree with the rationale that motivates Yad L’Achim.
However, when I was living on a kibbutz there were concerns regarding Christian missionary types which had to be taken quite seriously.

These concerns were regarding the evangelical Christians who applied to work as volunteers; along with their desire to experience Israel, the evangelicals were targeting young people on the kibbutz and trying to win them over to Christianity. As a result, one very confused and scared 14yr old boy hanged himself.

It’s one thing to have discussions about your particular faith in a free, adult society. It’s something else to be accepted into a community and then target its young and vulnerable members.

“People like those described have driven probably more Israeli Jews away from Orthodoxy than they have ‘’saved”. Who wants to be associated with a bunch of thugs?”

I attended Simchat Torah celebrations at my family’s schul this weekend. Afterwards, my father made a speech, in which he talked about how welcoming this schul was, and how many people attended it for a whole range of reasons. Chief among those reasons, was that the schul was open and inviting, and did not seek to berate or browbeat. Rather, it provides a beautiful service, led by an inspirational Rov and a glorious Cantor, which is its own advertisement for Judaism.

He was spot on.

There are certainly, some people who will be attracted by religious fervor bordering on fanaticism. Far more attractive – and effective, I’d say – are those who lead by example and who are able to communicate the joy of their religious belief to others.

I may not be a religious person: but I’m supportive of religious institutions and of the beliefs of others, in no small part because I have spent parts of my life in the company of religious people who are truly admirable persons.

It only takes a handful of loons to destroy all of that.

The last time you blogged on this, David, we had Fabian the generalising bigot who hates Arabs and Muslims. Now, we’ve got Joshua, who, in common with Fabian, normally writes made-up bollocks about the Middle East and Islam, gobbing off on his other favourite subject: Why I hate the UK. I tell you, it’s rare that I read something that makes me want to dot someone on the nose, but Joshua’s frothing bigotry today has brought me close.

“As a result, one very confused and scared 14yr old boy hanged himself.”

Why?

Thanks. Joshua. Absolutely spot on.

I must confess a deep dislike to all those who are trying to preach their religion aggressively to strangers: from Christian missionaries to Chabadniks, Mormons and SWP “newspaper sellers”. I don’t like to be doorstepped by strangers who know the revealed truth and wish to shove it down my throat and who regard themselves as custodians of my soul. Having said so, this is the price of living in a free, democratic, modern society.

If to follow the perverted logic of Eli or Joshua, Israel will become similar to Saudi Arabia, Iran or North Korea, a country where one group has the custody over ideological purity of everybody else and the legal means to enforce it. The prospect of this fills me with deep disgust and loathing, as it does, I believe, an overwhelming majority of Israelis. (Including majority of religious Israelis.)

A further point.

As a result, one very confused and scared 14yr old boy hanged himself.

Very sad. But what are you suggesting? Banning Christian missionaries? Now, had a very confused and scared 14yr boy hanged himself because of the actions of Chabad, would you suggest banning Chabad? Had a very confused and scared 14yr boy hanged himself (as, sadly, many do) after being turned down by a member of the opposite sex, would you require that young girls are obliged to satisfy sexual appetites of pubescent boys?

” I don’t like to be doorstepped by strangers who know the revealed truth and wish to shove it down my throat and who regard themselves as custodians of my soul.”

I love being doorstopped by strangers in these circumstances.

After all, that is precisely why I write on this blog.

And your full address is…

Oh, my wife hates them… but I invite them in. Of course!

(It isn’t the Jehovas Witnesses I’m worried about… it is the BNPers and Hamasniks I don’t particularly want to come calling. However I have a large and aggressive dog…)

Joshua, what are your thoughts on Corrie Ten Boom or even the Christian missionary Jane Haining?

Here’s another point.

Published this week on the forum of the anti-missionary blog JewishIsrael (by a member of their online community, who does not necessarily speak for them – nevertheless it is more or less what I reckon Yad L’Achim would say):

“IDEAS IN DEFEATING THE MISSIONARY THREAT”
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/forum/topics/ideas-in-defeating-the

Find out who supports them financially. Their places of business should be picketed and/or bothered with pamphlets in Hebrew, English and Russian.

So we’re gonna show the missionaries how wrong missionary activity is by, um, missionising them?

And while we’re at it, we’re going to imitate Martin Luther’s bigotry?

Yer, that’ll show ‘em!

Did you notice the Gavriel Saunders video when he moves in for the appeal to give money to support Yad L’Achim, he asks in all seriousness at 2:40 “will you bend over like that boy did?”

What!!!!! He stumbles, I think he realises what that sounds like, but gets back to his pitch.

He’s like a good ol’ tele-evangelist he moves in to give it to em and guilt-trippin them in order to get their money.

In response to your question of ‘why’, David, if memory serves me well it was in part connected to the evangelical eschatological view – i.e. the rapture of the church and the fate of those who didn’t accept Jesus as their saviour. The kibbutz I was on was not religious so perhaps the lad hadn’t been exposed to orthodoxy in any form.

With regard to ‘what are you suggesting?’ (SO.M). No, I didn’t mention banning Christian missionaries or any other form of religion at all so I think you’ve jumped the gun a little. I do think, however, you should be up front about your intentions. This particular group had applied to join the kibbutz as seasonal, agriculatural workers and were gladly accepted as such. To then seek out teenagers in particular with a view to spreading the ‘Word’ as they saw it, seems an issue of hospitality, ethics and trust, really. Especially where kids are concerned.

I’ve run youth councils in the UK for kids up to the age of 14yrs. If I introduced a controversial group – say, an evangelical, religious group – into the procedings without at least telling their parents, I would be acting way beyond my remit and probably unethically.

Perhaps this is just echoes of my personal, parental outlook, but it’s certainly not blanket banning – just prior consultation and up-front’ness. If that makes sense:-)

AP: As far as I understand it, missionary activity in Israel is prohibited if under-18s are approached.

Dan – there are ultra-Orthodox Jewish anti-Messianics such as Miriam Woelke who argue that some of the most prominent ex-Christian anti-missionaries still sound like Christian evangelists.

“the rapture of the church and the fate of those who didn’t accept Jesus as their saviour. The kibbutz I was on was not religious so perhaps the lad hadn’t been exposed to orthodoxy in any form.”

Yeah.

Judaism is at its best and most persuasive, when it involves food, singing and dancing with your family.

Christianity is at its best when it is focusing on grand buildings, choral music, bunnies/lambs and babies.

Unfortunately, there’s is some fairly freaky stuff in both religions.

Harry’s has now offically become Guardian-lite. I even wonder whether Toube is Georgina Henry in reverse-drag.

David T wrote an exceptionally interesting and gripping article. I read it on the edge of my seat and was deeply disturbed What most people either avoid or half-avoid is that he is dealing with an out and out criminal gang which has support within the government. What could be more serious than this? -I’m not supporting David because I am a friend of his wonderful father. If I don’t agree with David, I make it plain.

Welcome to Yeze for some rational argument (One of your links is not working at the moment because of ‘overloading).’ Where’s Israelinurse to give us her reasoned account of things? Maybe these comments are below her level.

There is not much point in arguing with Eli as his brain has been cooked for once and for all. if you argiue with an ass, your are an even bigger one yourself. Like Galloway and friends he ignores realities and can only spout his ideology A pure Jewish race echoes percisely the pure German race (neither of which really exist) and the ones who consider themselves pure are the worst criminals known to humanity.

Isn’t it enough for us to combat Swp, BNP, liberal’ fascists, Islamism without adding Yishai to the list. In my naivety I expected Israel, after all the sufferings Jews have been through, to be a model of integrity. Well, they seem to be the same as the rest of us. If the Israelis don’t get rid of this criminal gang, they lose half their credence in the world. Israel MUST be a model of democracy. In this it has no choice. I’d be interested to know if the Israeli government actually does something to stop this criminality.

If Yeve can’t be a normal citizen of Israel, there is something terribly wrong.

It is true that Christian missionaries have done the most dreadful damage to the world, and it should be stopped. Their prosyletism must be stopped by our own intelligence. Fancy infiltrating the kibbutz to prosyeletise. The bloody cheek of it! They propose their way, as the Archbishop Cassock jokingly suggests, as the one and only way to salvation, so this obviously provides the urge to convert others. They should stick to themselves, and it is true that the conversion mania has been considerably reduced. They don’t kidnap children, or try with criminal methods to destroy inter-faith marriages.

I think what you pick up is the natural and understandable anger that many Israelis feel when the citizens of a nation that collaborated in the Holocaust and acted in a manner in post-war Palestine that would have done credit to the SS attempt to teach them various lessons. There are many Israelis still alive whose families were murdered because of British conduct during the 1930s and 1940s, and others who remember well British troops murdering death camp survivors, strolling past as others were being killed and forcibly returning many to camps in Germany.

I suppose this is where I could say something along the lines of:

“Imagine being lectured on war crimes by an Israeli? Like Jack Ripper questioning your record on women’s rights.”

Of course, I wouldn’t dream of saying such things.

David T,

You would be well advised to consider St Laurence’s description of “the treasures of the church”

I take it back. Toube isn’t Geogina Henry in reverse-drag. He’s Seth Freedman’s little brother, using the patented Freedman technique:

1. Find an internal Israeli flaw of miniscule number or import.
2. Write a rant without proper representation of both sides.
3. Publish the rant not in Israel but abroad.
4. Publish the rant not in Hebrew but in English.
5. Thereby ensure the rant will do little to contribute to the discussion which matters (that within the Israeli democracy).
6. Thereby also ensure the discussion will do the maximum possible to supply ammunition to anti-Semites and anti-Israelis.

The rants by David T and SOS Muffin seem to ignore the Jewish ban on proselytisation.

I’m an atheist. But I completely agree with Joshua. Non-Jews and non-Israelis should keep their noses out of what is an internal Israeli affair.

I’m frankly alarmed by the extent to which some of you are MISunderstanding ‘messianic judaism’.

I tried to post these comments on the article about Messianics, but it was rejected, so I’m posting it here in the hope some of you will read it.

Messianics are NOT Jews. The entire raison d’etre of the Messianic movement is the *conversion* OF Jews TO Christianity.

Prior to the 1960s, you would have been hard pushed to find any ‘messianic jews’. Why? Because they didn’t exist – they called themselves ‘hebrew CHRISTIANS’.

The Messianic movement was founded by evangelical Christians and it is funded by evangelical Churches. The VAST MAJORITY of Messianics were NEVER, EVER JEWS TO START WITH.

Not via birth.
Not via conversion.

This is a simple statement of fact.

Right now, in various internet forums that discuss religion, Messianics are busy insisting that they are the ‘real jews’, because they recognise Jesus as ‘ha maschiach’.

Genuine Jews – myself included – are routinely accused of ‘hatred’ when we try to counter Messianic LIES about Judaism.

As for Jews that convert to Christianity:

Jews that become Christians = CHRISTIANS

They do not become ‘messianic jews’!

Historically, Jews that left Judaism became EX JEWS. If they wished to return, they had to actually convert BACK TO JUDAISM.

And for those of you referencing ‘ethnicity’ – there is no such thing as ‘jewish ethnicity’. Jews come from ALL ethnicities.

Some of you are failing to recognise the dangers of the Messianic movement, which across the world targets naive young Jews in a most deceptive fashion.

Please, be aware that when you seek to defend Messianics, you are defending spiritual fraud and deception of the most egregious kind.

Messianics trying to convert Jews in Britain:
http://www.ajewwithaview.com/?page_id=3

Countering Messianic Lies:
http://www.ajewwithaview.com/?page_id=5

To reiterate a vital point: Jews who adopt Christian belief DO NOT BECOME ‘MESSIANIC JEWS’!

Just because a few Jews adopt Christian beliefs, those beliefs do not become ‘jewish’!

Messianics trying to convert Jews in Britain:
http://www.ajewwithaview.com/?page_id=3

I have never seen a more crappy attempt at converting somebody in my life.

Are you seriously saying that, if a bloke turns up at your house and says (I paraphrase):

“Hello, I’m a Rabbi, honest – hey! Let’s worship Jesus!”

anybody but the most foolish and doctrinally ignorant person would be converted?

Seriously, if that’s the level of proslytisation that you’re worried about, you should chill out.

What’s more: three of the best “anti-Missionary” rabbonim… are actually Christian converts to Judaism. Christians should be the ones who are worried here.

Stop being childish.

“Judaism is at its best and most persuasive, when it involves food, singing and dancing with your family.”

Here we see the core of the problem. David T is completely and profoundly ignorant about any of tradition Jewish learning or theology. Yet he still cannot keep his yap shut and be thought a fool, rather than opening his yap and confirming it.

Who the f-ck is this to tell either Israelis or other Jews how to run their lives?

David, your video is irrelevant.

Christianity has spent 1,600 years proselytising Jews with violence. It could even be argued the Holocaust was the culmination of the Christain world’s frustration; if it couldn’t convert the Jews, it would eliminate them.

Given such historical background, Christian attempts to convert Jews even within the Jewish state are a grotesque offence to morality, to the memory of murdered Jewish milions, and to any honest religious concept of humility, repentance and remorse for past persecutions.

Who the f-ck is this to tell either Israelis or other Jews how to run their lives?

Who the fuck are you to tell bloggers what they can and cannot write about on their own blogs?

But I completely agree with Joshua. Non-Jews and non-Israelis should keep their noses out of what is an internal Israeli affair.

How would the “keep your nose out of the domestic affairs of other countries” schtick have played with you the morning after Kristallnacht?

Dolt.

Brownie

“Imagine being lectured on war crimes by an Israeli? Like Jack Ripper questioning your record on women’s rights.”

Except for one difference – facts! Britain did commit manifold crimes against the Jewish people. Israel, however, has committed crimes against no one.

Who the fuck are you to tell bloggers what they can and cannot write about on their own blogs?

Someone who supports the right of Jewish Israelis to wash their dirty linen in private. Anything else is a continuation of traditional anti-Semtism. As is the Freedman/Toube hyper-scrutiny of Israel.

“How would the “keep your nose out of the domestic affairs of other countries” schtick have played with you the morning after Kristallnacht?”

Because Israel isn’t Nazi Germany. Interesting that Harry’s Place has degenerated into comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany. Glad you hypocritical bastards have finaly shown your colours.

Israel, however, has committed crimes against no one.

This is why, like Britain, Israel is hugely popular in all corners of the world, presumably?

Anyone with the least sense of history realises that virtually the whole Jewish popuation of Israel is, or is descended from, refugees from centuries of persecution by both Christains and Muslims. On those grounds, Israel woud be amply justified in denying residence to all non-Jews (much less to proselytising Christians).

Because Israel isn’t Nazi Germany. Interesting that Harry’s Place has degenerated into comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany. Glad you hypocritical bastards have finaly shown your colours.

Your argument was premised on “keep your bloody noses out”. I demonstrated why this is a worthless principle by showing you its logical application in an extreme case. Having been skewered on a rather obvious and well-worn debating épée, you now seek to cover your embarrassment by accusing me of making false equivalence with Israel and Nazi Germany.

Risible.

Thanks Tabatha for the information.

Hitler’s goal = the dissapearance of the Jewish people.

Messianic “Jews” = Hitler’s goal by other means.

Can i just say, reader, that I’ve been to Israel and I’m happy to announce that I didn’t meet anyone who remotely resembles ‘HarrysNoPlace’.

Visit the country, eat great food, look at beautiful women and speak with interesting people. You’ll be really unlucky to bump into a a chip-on-the-shoulder bigot like ‘HarrysNoPlace’.

Sorry, Brownie, you’ve revealed your thought: Israel is comparable to Nazi Germany.

In fact, the whole problem with you bastards at HP is that you have absolutely no sense of scale whatsoever. Israel’s defects do not make it the equivalent of Nazi Germany, and neither do they give you the right to stick your nose in.

Which is why its just as well the Israelis will completely ignore putzim like you and David.

Brownie, you’ve just proved my points several times over.

1. I’m not Israeli.
2. I’m not Jewish.

So, much like the traditional anti-Semite, you assume someone a religious Jew just because he thinks you a putz.

Further, you assume everyone’s identity determined by food and beautiful women, meaning you yourself understand little either about the Jewish religion or the Jewish state.

Finally, I can’t help but suspect there is a bit of old-fashioned anti-semitic bigotry in all the venom Harry’s sees fit to direct towards anyone who doesn’t fit its decision that Israelis must be secular, anti-religious, leftists Ashkenasim.

I’ll take Shas over you lot, thank you. And I’ll make a financial contribution to them in your honour.

You’d better get used to being irrelevant. Netanyahu is in power and owes more to orthodox Mizrahim residing in Israel, than to arrogant secular Ashkenazim residing in the UK.

Sorry, Brownie, you’ve revealed your thought: Israel is comparable to Nazi Germany.

Moron.

Israel’s defects do not make it the equivalent of Nazi Germany, and neither do they give you the right to stick your nose in.

You’re having real trouble grasping this, aren’t you? This is a blog. We neither seek nor require your permission to discuss anything. We have a ‘right’ to opine on any subject, and in fact we do. Either get used to it or continue to wet yourself; but it is what it is.

Which is why its just as well the Israelis will completely ignore putzim like you and David.

Yeah, you’re doing a really great job of ignoring this post. Let me know when you start to pay it some heed.

“I have many more friends who have drifted in and out of Judaism, Islam and Christianity…”

Point of order. Drifting in and out of Islam can get you killed, in accordance with Islamic law.

This is the core of HP hypocrisy:

Israel is a secular country.

No, it isn’t. Israel is whatever its citizens want it to be, regardless of what HP thinks. Israelis (including religious Israelis) are not responsible to HP.

The Jews have endured centuries of oppression and assimilation pressure under both Christains and Muslims. They should not be forced to endure the same in their own country. Though atheist, I think I’ll send some money to Yad L’Achim.

Brownie,

Putz, you just don’t get it, do you? Your opinion, and my opinion, and the debate here, are all quite irrelevant to reality and are just your (and Toube’s) intellectual masturbation.

If you really want to affect Israeli policy, then make aliya, learn Hebrew, do your army service, vote, and writre and speak in Hebrew in israeli media.

Otherwise, please shut the fuck up and leave Israel alone to decide its own religious policies.

Putz, you just don’t get it, do you? Your opinion, and my opinion, and the debate here, are all quite irrelevant to reality and are just your (and Toube’s intellectual masturbation.

Hold on, who claimed this was a session of the UN Security Council? I have no delusions about the sphere of influence this blog has. It’s you who has lost the perspective here, punk.

Otherwise, please shut the fuck up and leave Israel alone to decide its own religious policies.

Even though you asked really nicely, I’m afraid I’m going to have to tell you to bite me. In fact, I plan to comment more on Israel related threads just because I know unrepresentative Israelis like you get wound up by it.

Good grief! Last para was mine and shouldn’t be italicised.

What a feckin’ waste of time this has been. I’ll never get these 2 hours back, will I?

Thanks to Felix for your comment!

If you really want to affect Israeli policy, then make aliya, learn Hebrew, do your army service, vote, and writre and speak in Hebrew in israeli media.

But how can I if my beliefs mean that…

Oh nevermind.

Erev tov Felix! Long day I’m afraid, and seeing as I have made my position on this subject quite clear on the previous two threads with the same theme, I see little point in repeating the arguments.

This, however, is hilarious:
‘Yes, I appreciate that in Israel’s multi-party democracy, the religious parties get a chance to exercise a little power in isolated areas. Let that be in relation to matters which are within their domain. Kashrut. Preserving religious relics. The affairs of orthodox Jews. Almost anything, apart from matters of citizenship, or inter-denominational dating.’

Why hilarious? Because it implies that if a political party runs under a certain banner, then it should confine itself to subjects related only to that banner. So, for example, were I to run for office as a feminist party, according to David T., I should not concern myself with matters unrelated to women’s rights. And of course Greens would only be allowed to speak about things to do with the environment. Rather a patronising and undemocratic outlook in my view.
The premise put forward here is also quite ridiculous when one considers who votes for the various religious parties in Israel and why. Contrary to what some here may believe, their voters are not confined to religious extremists and ‘evil’ West bank settlers: many ordinary people who do not live orthodox or even religious lives still vote for parties like Shas. These people obviously have everyday concerns such as education and taxation and want their party of choice to relate to these subjects too.
Ironically, I as a left-wing Israeli voter am delighted when religious parties take on subjects unrelated to religion. Not only does it make them less sectarian, it also means that they have less time to take up issues where the religious influence needs to be toned down, in my view.
I have to say that it took me a good 4 or 5 years of living in Israel before I really understood the politics, and that in order to do so I had to rethink many of the very basic premises I had brought with me from Europe. Israel is not Europe (thank goodness!) and the divides of Left/Right, religious/secular, progressive/conservative, Eastern/Western often have different meanings there.

Finally, I note that this has been left unchallenged:
‘Of course, Yad Le’Ahim, like West Bank settlers, are allowed to defy Israeli law without being called into account.’ (SO Muffin)
Once more we have ‘West Bank settlers’ being portrayed as one, homogenous, uniform and monotone group, which is of course far from the reality of the actual situation, but why waste an opportunity to demonise these people if one half presents itself?

IsraeliNurse, what do you make of Yad L’Achim?

So, for example, were I to run for office as a feminist party, according to David T., I should not concern myself with matters unrelated to women’s rights.

Israeli Nurse – Let’s imagine your feminist party:

1. Violently opposed anyone who dressed up like a woman, but wasn’t actually a woman
2. Violently opposed any women who wanted to become men
3. Was strongly suspicious of men who wanted to become women
4. Strongly opposed other women who were not ‘feminine’ enough
5. Kidnapped women from homes where they could not be sufficiently ‘feminine’
6. Declared yourselves to be the only party to truly represent feminists, and violently opposed all those with alternative definitions of feminism
7. Accused anyone who disagreed of being a sexist/misogynist

In that case I would suggest your party stick to more relevant women’s rights issues such as: narrowing the pay gap and opposing sexist discrimination in the work place.

‘IsraeliNurse, what do you make of Yad L’Achim?’
Well, Yeze, they are not the sort of people I would invite for afternoon tea: I have an inbuilt scepticism as regards people who ‘know the truth’, be that truth religious, political, spiritual …
I’m even more sceptical as regards people who ‘know what God wants’, and to be quite frank, after having looked at their website and yours, including some of the blogs to which you link, I really don’t think there’s much to choose between you from my point of view.
However, I will say that your PR is better and obviously western-orientated. In fact I’m beginning to wonder about chickens and eggs here. The appearance of posts on the Rosh Pina blog describing the sudden waking up and taking notice of the ‘plight’ of MJ by western media outlets including HP seems a little too well spun considering that a substantial amount of the posts here have been by….yourselves! Kudos on the spin, guys, but if you think this is going to put pressure on the Israeli government to bend to your wishes, I would think again. Bad press is not something which the Israeli people are not used to dealing with. It is, however, a very good way to get people’s backs up even more.
Let me now ask you a question – why do you want to live in Israel?

Archbishop Crassock @11:33 am:
Huh?
Are you really suggesting the ONLY people I can persuade to become Christians, are those who started off life as Christians?

A question for anyone on this thread who like Archbishop Cassock does not want to be denied the opportunity to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” by bringing them to “salvation” at the point in time they consent to accept the Christian “Messiah” “Jesus of Nazareth” “into their hearts” as their “divine” personal saviour, but who unlike Archbishop Cassock, is well informed about past and present missionary activities and the contemporary missionary scene in Israel.

I’m very curious to know why exactly, none of the missionaries neither those among the “Jews” for Jesus community, nor among the myriad of Evangelical Protestant and other Christian missionaries in Israel, as well as among the organizational structures outside Israel with which they are affiliated, never express any interest and make absolutely no effort to bring “salvation” to Muslims and Druze in Israel?

Is it strictly a matter of real or imagined fears and apprehensions of corporal reprisals from Muslim and Druze communities, but not from the Jewish Israeli population, that these people are neglected and denied the opportunity to be aided to “salvation”?

Because if so, it seems both a bit non-commital for someone who believes in actively working to bring all humanity to salvation, as well as a tad counterintuitive, given the abhorrent violence that has already been exacted on some members of the “Jews” for Jesus community in Israel likely perpetrated by Jewish offenders.

Excellent comments Israelinurse and LBNAZ.

Christian missionaries do try to convert Muslims

IsraeliNurse – Glad you’ve had a look around our site. I hope none of the blogs we link to promote violence against “Amalek” (if they do please tell me where and I’ll delete the link) – that’s an important difference.

Lbnaz comparitively speaking there is more hour for hour Christian mission done by evangelicals for other people-groups in the world than amongst Jewish people. So though you may not like missionaries, to suggest they ignore the world and only focus on the Jewish people is innacurate. The scope of mission to muslims, for example, makes J4J look like part-timers.

Like I said…..

Israelinurse: “if you think this is going to put pressure on the Israeli government to bend to your wishes, I would think again.”

Not our will be done ;-) I just hope that the strength of Israel’s democracy will win out and people will stop harassing and demonizing her Messianic Jews citizens. Listen, slam the door in missionaries faces (some who may be Messianic Jews and others not) if you want, don’t read their literature, criticize unethical practices, educate, promote your own ideology and religious conviction, but by the same token let Messianic Jews have freedom of their own religious convictions as well without some government linked agency putting up posters with their private details on, trying to get them sacked for what they believe and inspiring violence against them.

Pommy Bastard: if history shows us anything, there have been wars and sorrows caused by atheists as well as religious people, nationalists as well as internationalists!

“Let me now ask you a question – why do you want to live in Israel?”

I don’t thanks, I’m quite happy where I am, but who knows? If the anti-Semitism you so aptly identify in the West continues to grow, maybe one day I’ll need to.

DavidT and Daniel, I was not asking about the rest of the world, I was asking about Israel, where missionaries refrain from making any discernible attempts to bring “salvation” to Druze and Muslim communities. Why is that?

But if you want to discuss missionary activities outside of Israel, maybe someone knowledgeable can educate me about missionary activities in Gaza, the West Bank and Saudi Arabia for starters. I would also highlight the contrast between the paucity of Christian and “Jews” for Jesus missionary “work” in these aforementioned locales with the risks taken by missionaries to sneak Bibles into and bring “salvation” to citizens in the former Soviet Union.

Lbnaz, the point is that Israel is a free democratic country and you don’t get killed for changing your religion or promoting anything other than the state religion. Many Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel have Arab members, some Druze, others have been helping Somali refugees, one even has an Israeli Arab serving as its pastor!

In Gaza an Arab Christian Bible bookstore manager was kidnapped and murdered a year or so ago. In Saudi churches are forbidden so in these kinds of places it is always indigenous Christians that bear the brunt. Interestingly some of the leading mission to Muslim thinkers were/are in fact Messianic Jews!

‘Many Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel have Arab members, some Druze, others have been helping Somali refugees, one even has an Israeli Arab serving as its pastor!’
Surely that knocks on the head the argument previously put forward that MJ are in fact just another branch of Judaism and therefore eligible for aliyah under the Law of Return?

Well, Yeze, if it’s an insurance policy you’re after, I would suggest a study of the case of the Falash Mura.

Please everyone don’t tar all jews with the same brush, these are just a few hundred nut jobs out to make trouble.

Not all jews are like this, they do not speak for the Jewish faith.

‘Many Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel have Arab members, some Druze, others have been helping Somali refugees, one even has an Israeli Arab serving as its pastor!’

And the claim that Messianics are “ethnic Jews” while being maybe “religious Christians” lays shattered on the ground….

RightonCommander: Sure, everyone’s responsible for his own words and actions. I think collective responsability or collective scapegoating towards Jews is terrible, and will vehemently oppose it.

What seems to bug Fabian is that I also oppose the collective scapegoating of Messianic Jews.

I don’t think Gentiles who support Messianic Jews should cause any more of a theological problem for Messianic Jewish theologians than Gentiles who oppose Messianic Jews and work for Yad L’Achim should cause for their theology.

IN & FFI: there are 10-15,000 ethnic Jews in Israel who do believe that Yeshua is their Messiah. Around the world, maybe around a quarter of million ethnic Jews do. That’s simply a fact.

Israeli nurse, I would simply like certain laws in Israel to be reformed, for the government to sever all links with Yad L’Achim and commission an investigation into Yad L’Achim’s relationship with the Interior Ministry.

Surely as an Israeli left-winger you’d support that?

Or perhaps as a mother you’d have sympathy for Ami Ortiz and his family, and think the state should do more to protect its Messianic Jewish citizens?

“I don’t think Gentiles who support Messianic Jews should cause any more of a theological problem for Messianic Jewish theologians than Gentiles who oppose Messianic Jews and work for Yad L’Achim should cause for their theology.”

I didn’t know that Yad L’achim considered itself a Church, Yeze.

And you certainly use the word “support” in a very strange way, when we are considering the case of one of the Pastors of the “Messianic Jews” flock who is an Israeli Arab. I would think that a “Pastor” is more than just a “supporter”.

What about sympathy for the Jewish Holocaust Survivor with dementia, who could not speak and was abused by your Messianic “Jews”?

You’re argument is that Messianic Jews worshipping alongside Gentiles in Israel stops them from being ethnic Jews, have I got that right?

I think a pastor’s job is to support his congregation, you’re welcome to disagree.

According to your article, these women played worship songs to the elderly lady, hardly a case of abuse! Seriously though, it comes down to whether it’s okay for religious people to spread their beliefs in the work place. I don’t know, is it illegal in Israel? Are there cases of Chabadniks or other Jews working in care homes who sing worship songs to their patients? I appreciate it’s a sensitive issue and I’m not really sure how the law deals with such cases.

But why ignore my question about Ami Ortiz? He was 15 years old, and nearly blown to pieces by a bomb disguised as a Purim package. How is that acceptable?

Israelinurse I’m not arguing about the law of return I am commenting on the situation that Messianic Jews Israeli citizens are facing. So what if there are non-Jews welcome in their Messianic Jewish congregations, surely that is a good thing & more of that cross-cultural welcome is needed in the Middle East. Fabian, they are not claiming to be Jews! They are however welcomed into Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel as fellow human beings. As noted above three of the most active anti-missionaries are Gentiles who converted to Judaism!

“I think a pastor’s job is to support his congregation, you’re welcome to disagree”

Very disingenuous response. How is this not surprising to me?

“Seriously though, it comes down to whether it’s okay for religious people to spread their beliefs in the work place.”

No, seriously, it was about abusing an old lady who could not answer you and whose all life was an explicit rejection to your ideas. But I welcome your answer to that case, because it really show that you will stop at nothing in your predatory activities. What next, fucking her because she wasn’t able to say no?

“You’re argument is that Messianic Jews worshipping alongside Gentiles in Israel stops them from being ethnic Jews, have I got that right?”

Your argument is that Messianic “Jews” are Jews. It was destroyed by Daniel’s confession that your Christian religious community is not even “ethnically” Jewish.

But Fab, I’ve asked you a question: is the problem that religious people sing worship songs in nursing homes, or is the problem what those religious people believe?

And you’ve ignored Ami Ortiz for a third time.

Why don’t you watch this video and learn what happened to him?

There seem to be several different subjects being discussed, and sometimes confused, here.
We have Yeze, who does not live in Israel and at this time does not want to, but somehow thinks that he should have a say in the changing of Israeli law and internal affairs. Sorry, but I just don’t get that! Just as I have no right to influence American or Australian internal affairs, you’ll have to accept that you don’t have a say in this.
And yes, Yeze, it is a problem when religious people sing religious songs in nursing homes if they are not all of the same religion. It is tantamount to the carer taking advantage of his/her position of authority in order to conduct missionary activities. Those of us who work in public service in Israel are trained to respect the beliefs of all our clients. That means helping them to live, worship and die according to their beliefs, not ours. I, for example, was specially trained in the customs and traditions of all the various religious and ethnic groups within Israeli society regarding death. I deal with different bereaved people in completely different ways, according to their customs, not mine. Anyone who cannot keep his own religion to himself has no place in working in public service, I’m afraid. It’s the client and his/her beliefs who are the focus of public service, not the service provider.
Then we have Daniel, who is talking about the situation of MJ in Israel. Just out of interest, what do these Druze and Arab followers of the MJ line call themselves? They can’t possibly be defined as Messianic Jews, but if they believe the same as you do, you must have a name for this school of thought.
Obviously violence of any kind is to be condemned, but as I said on the previous thread on this subject, I think we need to ask why there are so many Christians of other denominations living in Israel (and indeed other religions too) who do not attract such strong feelings towards themselves. What exactly is it that MJ do which makes them different? How come nobody objects, for example, to the Church of Scotland in Tiberias and their rather swanky hotel? Loads of us from the area go to drink in their bar and enjoy their whisky festival and Burns night events, and there is much cross-cultural mixing. I’ve even had Christmas dinner with some of them and they have visited my kibbutz. No problems with animosity or violence there at all.
The all important difference is that they get on with their religion, we get on with ours, and nobody tries to change anyone else. That’s the recipe for a harmonious multi-cultural society.

“The all important difference is that they get on with their religion, we get on with ours, and nobody tries to change anyone else. That’s the recipe for a harmonious multi-cultural society.”

But isn’t the freedom to change one’s beliefs, and to persuade others to change their beliefs, a cornerstone of liberal democracy?

Fabian, to clarify I mean the Arabs, Druze and Somalis that enjoy attending Messianic Jewish Congregations in Israel are not claiming to be Jewish, only those who were born Jewish are claiming that.

IsraeliNurse, do you ever comment on the affairs of another country? I suspect you do. You should be able to cope with someone else doing the same thing.

Same question to you as posed to Fabian: is the problem that religious people sing worship songs in nursing homes, or is the problem what those religious people believe?

Why have you, like Fabian, ignored my point about Ami Ortiz? How do you feel knowing that another mother had to watch her son fighting for his life after nearly being blown apart by a terrorist bomb, targetted for the Ortiz family specifically due to the fact that the Ortiz family were Messianic Jews and didn’t keep quiet about their beliefs? How do you feel about the fact the bomb was disguised as a Purim package: as a gift for the Ortiz family?

Also, how exactly are you left-wing, when you’re siding with the identity of the state against democratic law and the liberties of citizens?

The best you can manage about Yad L’Achim is that they’re not quite your cup of tea, whilst you sneer and snipe at law-abiding Messianic Jews, and completely ignore the plight of Ami Ortiz, whose suffering is clearly inconvenient for you.

Disgraceful.

Obviously violence of any kind is to be condemned, but as I said on the previous thread on this subject, I think we need to ask why there are so many Christians of other denominations living in Israel (and indeed other religions too) who do not attract such strong feelings towards themselves. What exactly is it that MJ do which makes them different? How come nobody objects, for example, to the Church of Scotland in Tiberias and their rather swanky hotel?

Replace the word ‘MJ’ with ‘Jews’, and you’ll realise you’re using a line of argument which is extremely popular amongst the Far Right.

Sorry, you did actually answer one of my above questions:

That means helping them to live, worship and die according to their beliefs, not ours. I, for example, was specially trained in the customs and traditions of all the various religious and ethnic groups within Israeli society regarding death. I deal with different bereaved people in completely different ways, according to their customs, not mine. Anyone who cannot keep his own religion to himself has no place in working in public service, I’m afraid. It’s the client and his/her beliefs who are the focus of public service, not the service provider.

That’s a fair position. Please ignore my second paragraph in the comment 2 above.

How would you treat an elderly Messianic Jew who was in your care, out of interest?

very good points Yeze

Yeze – there’s a hell of a difference between commenting on the subject of another country’s policies and organising a media campaign through third parties to try to instigate change in a country in which you do not even live.

I have not ignored your point about Ami Ortiz -” Obviously violence of any kind is to be condemned”.

“Also, how exactly are you left-wing, when you’re siding with the identity of the state against democratic law and the liberties of citizens?”
In any democracy the rule of the majority takes precedence. Minorities will sometimes not get what they want precisely because they are a minority, so the liberty of the few will sometimes have to take a back seat when it comes into conflict with the liberties of the majority.
I personally find it unacceptable that my liberties as a smoker have been curtailed in almost every public place. I think I should be allowed to smoke together with my pint or my meal, and also on a plane or train journey or in my office. I’m not forcing anyone else to smoke, and preventing me from doing so is a violation of my civil rights in a democracy. However, the majority don’t think like that, do they? So my rights and freedoms are curtailed because I am in the minority and I can either accept that or go to live elsewhere where the law is different. Obviously the Israeli government thinks that by allowing you the liberties you demand, the liberties of the majority would be compromised.
Nobody is objecting to MJ worshipping as they see fit. It’s the trying to persuade others to change their religion which people find offensive and a common factor between all of the MJ posters here seems to be that you completely refuse to see just how objectionable that is. Such disregard for the sensibilities of those surrounding you would suggest that you have little interest in their civil rights, whilst having no problem demanding your own right to act as you please. Or maybe the point is that although you know full well that people find such missionary activities objectionable, you actually don’t care because for you, ’saving’ those people is more important than their civil liberties.

‘How would you treat an elderly Messianic Jew who was in your care, out of interest?’
I would find out what their beliefs entailed and what their wishes were and try to accomodate them as much as possible. I would certainly not try to persuade them to change their beliefs, customs or traditions.

Really Israelinurse are you really so paranoid as to think there is now a Messianic Jewish Elders of Zion cabal controlling the press!!!

Again the point must be made that everything that used to be said about “The Jews” in Europe in the Middle Ages is now being said about Messianic Jews.

I think I should be allowed to smoke together with my pint or my meal, and also on a plane or train journey or in my office.

You’re comparing a 15-year old’s right to a basketball career and a life free from terror with your right to smoke??? Really?

So my rights and freedoms are curtailed because I am in the minority and I can either accept that or go to live elsewhere where the law is different.

So black people should have gone back to Africa and not bothered with MLK and the civil rights movement? Is that also why the Jews left Spain in 1492?

It’s the trying to persuade others to change their religion which people find offensive and a common factor between all of the MJ posters here seems to be that you completely refuse to see just how objectionable that is.

So why just pick on the ones who believe in Jesus? When Israel gets rid of all its Chabad missionaries I might appreciate a consistent argument.

Minorities will sometimes not get what they want precisely because they are a minority, so the liberty of the few will sometimes have to take a back seat when it comes into conflict with the liberties of the majority.

Isn’t that fascism?

I was heartened to see that a recent poll found that a majority of Israelis support religious freedom.

“Some 83 percent of Israeli Jews said they support “ensuring freedom of religion and conscience.”

“Only 9 percent of fervently Orthodox respondents said they support freedom of religion”

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/10/12/1008455/poll-majority-of-israeli-jews-support-reigious-freedom

Israelinurse,
If you want to live in a society where you can be sure that no-one will dare try to persuade you to change your religious views, I suggest you move to Iran.

I hate people who shove their beliefs into other peoples faces, no matter what religion

on the other hand I think religious freedom is a basic human right

I thought MJ stood for Michael Jackson

Here is the full Hebrew Ha’aretz article: http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/spages/1118115.html

English translation here: http://jij.org.il/files/Unbelievable.pdf

This is from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations.

Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: This right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.