Harry's Place

I wish I had enough respect for European forces to be surprised.

the Italian secret service had been paying tens of thousands of dollars to Taleban commanders and local warlords to keep the area quiet

Is this in some way materially different to the “surge” in Iraq? IIRC, that strategy basically involved paying off the local psychos – people who had previously been IED bombing the Americans and drilling holes in their neighbours’ heads – to keep the area quiet, using their own methods.

I believe that General Petraeus was lauded as something of a counterinsurgency genius for that move, which makes me wonder exactly what his strategy for winning Afghanistan is.

Just to get this thing straight. Our noble Afghan friends have been taking kickbacks from our noble Italian friends to not shoot their troops, and our noble French friends just wandered into a hornets nest because nobody told them there was a tariff?

Something ignoble there surely?

There’s a difference between employing people and paying off your enemies.

In any case, since you don’t actually want democracy or anything like that to prevail over those most oppressive thugs in the region, the Taliban, I have no idea what you’re complaining about Rodent.

We know who’s side you’re not on. You’ve made it clear time and again that you’re a isolationist, so don’t pretend you give a flying fuck about the Afghani people.

Also, would like to have different and have more respect for all!

And the Eurofanatics want us to be part of a Euro Army.
I wouldn’t want to fight in an Army if i had to rely on the Italians.

What’s the Italian SAS motto? Who cares who wins. Hur hur.

I wish I had enough respect for European forces to be surprised.

Talking out of your arse again, Josh…I don’t know, if it isn’t inventing anecdotes to confirm your own festering hatred of Muslims and Arabs, it’s indulging your penchant for anti-Europeanism.

Is this in some way materially different to the “surge” in Iraq?

Yes. From the article:

“One cannot be too doctrinaire about these things,” a senior Nato officer in Kabul said. “It might well make sense to buy off local groups and use non-violence to keep violence down. But it is madness to do so and not inform your allies.”

As you can see the whole point is about keeping your allies informed.

I wish I had enough respect for European forces to be surprised.

Since the formation of the Agenzia Informazioni e Sicurezza Esterna in 1997 the Italian secret service is not part of the military.

John Coquillon, I think I know the anecdote you don’t want to believe. You don’t want to believe that I met a Muslim who proclaimed a genocidal antisemitism and used the the Koran to justify it…

I suppose you think the channel 4 undercover mosque program was entirely faked. Probably the preacher and his audience were all Jews.

I wish I had enough respect for European forces to be surprised.

I know it’s kind of fashionable to slag off the French and the Italians, but that does sound a little bit twattish.

‘but that does sound a little bit twattish’

Agreed. Remember Verdun, remember the Isonzo.

In Somalia in the 1990s the American forces strongly suspected the Italian troops in the country of cooperating with the warlords to protect themselves, even at the expense of the other international peacekeepers.

The reason is simple, every thing starts with BLAME and the politics turn more ugly and this BLAME game continues….regardless the seriousness of situations..

The reason is simple, every thing starts with BLAME and the politics turn more ugly and this BLAME game continues….regardless the seriousness of situations..

The Italians are not allies – the Italians are involved in NATO and the EU and other institutions purely for motives of self-interest.

Italians resolve day-to-day problems in their own country by spreading some notes around – no surprise to see them doing the same in Afghanistan.

The idea that they would be honest and informative about their dealings is something of a joke.

They shouldn’t be anywhere near any serious military operation.

This is a classic case of two bald men fighting over a comb. Neither Italy nor France is willing to go to war for anything, ever, so who cares?

This seems like a conspiracy between the French and Italians to bolster national stereotypes.

The French ought to have been on their guard. If the NATO command knew the Italians were bribing the ‘Taliban’ (is this really a single organisation?) then why reveal this now? I read elsewhere that the “Americans were monitoring the Italian’s [secret] communications” and therefore, it is alleged, had knowledge of the bribes. If true, and it might well be true since the American’s are known to have eavesdropped on UN forces in the former Yugoslavia, why not warn the French? (You are ahead of me …)

Do any of these people trust one another?

Is there a two or three tier NATO with the American bit at the top keeping all its cards firmly to its own chest?

Sounds in keeping with Italian strategy in recent years. I recall reading somewhere that Italians paid off Hizbullah for similiar reasons when serving in Lebanon as well.

This sort of thing was commonplace between supposedly neutral European Allies just before the great muslim defeat at the naval battle of Lepantomine!

It brings to mind the old joke from circa 1945.

For Sale: Three quarters of a million rifles. Excellent condition. Never fired. Only dropped once.

Well, some points…

First and foremost, the Italians are denying these allegations and AFAICS, this “disclosure by Western military officials” is the totality of the evidence presented. It may be true, and it may not be.

Secondly, while it would be sneaky and selfish of the Italians to make these payments on the sly, I can see no difference at all to the Americans’ surge strategy in Iraq. Both involve bribing the local headbangers to refrain from lobbing RPGs at foot patrols and to keep their neighbourhoods in line, with the tacit understanding that western units will turn a blind eye to their methods unless they get too publicly brutal. Anyone who calls the Italians cowards and yet applauds the Americans has obviously not thought the situation through at all.

Finally, the vital question here for anyone who wants western forces to commit to Afghanistan long-term is not Why are the Italians such bastards? The major question is Why are military casualties in Afghanistan so politically harmful to Italian politicians?

If you want to win the war – however vaguely you define “win”, and I’ve seen some pretty damn vague definitions when politicians talk about Afghanistan – then allies both local and western are going to be vital. That begins and ends with ensuring the support of populations in those areas, and deriding doubters as a shower of Eurowusses is a) hypocritical b) counterproductive and c) ignorant.

If you want people to support your wars, you have to convince those who disagree that they’re mistaken. Calling them a bunch of saps and pussies is an idiot’s gambit, destined for woeful failure.

sap!
pussy!

I wouldn’t want Flying Rodent anywhere near me in a war, he obviously doesn’t believe in pooling information. Does he also believe in paying hostage takers even though it encourages the practice?

>> Is this in some way materially different to the “surge” in Iraq?

The surge is publicized, and any dealings with local militants made clear. Typical Rodent – a report even more shocking than Operation Gladio, and he has to have a jibe at Harry’s Place.

The Italians might as well have changed sides halfway through, and the French fought to the last man and then surrendered and withdrawn from the country… how much more stereotypical could they get?

Fabrizio “I Will Show You How An Italian Dies” Quattrocchi must be spinning in his grave.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1459341/Kidnappers-murder-Italian-hostage.html

Facebook is blocking access to these reports.

I think the points are quite straightforward and don’t require a lot of thought to grasp, to be honest.

a) The Italians were not in Afghanistan because they’re shit hot for Teh War On Terrer; they’re there because the Americans asked them to go, much like most of the other nations that sent token contingents. Also like other NATO partners, the mission is not very popular with the Italian electorate.

b) The same goes for France.

c) Hence, a vast condemnatory circle-jerk aimed at the Dhimmi Italians and French is counterproductive and short-sighted. That’s assuming that fighting and defeating the Taleban is the priority here.

d) Since there was an outbreak of whooping and cheering when the Americans started bribing the head-choppers and IED bombers, I think it’s fair to say that bribing Islamist headbangers is not in itself considered a crime amongst Afghan war enthusiasts. The Italians might have been bastards for not warning the French, but then, there’s nothing to suggest that the attack on the latter was prompted by the lack of bribes from the former, particularly because…

e) …All of this is based on conjecture anyway, since there’s hardly any evidence at all to suggest that this story is true, other than an anonymous military source. It may or may not be accurate, but it would hardly be the first anonymously-sourced piece of NATO squabbling bullshit to make the major papers.

Feel free to dispute this stuff or don’t, it’s no skin off mine.

c) Hence, a vast condemnatory circle-jerk aimed at the Dhimmi Italians and French is counterproductive and short-sighted. That’s assuming that fighting and defeating the Taleban is the priority here.

I dispute that my comment on Harry’s place is going to undo the hard work of career diplomats and elected officials.

If I really do have the immense power to personally derail the foreign policy of the world’s greatest nations, then I’m much more important than I thought and will have to think of some way to use my awesome power to bend you puny serfs to my will!

a vast condemnatory circle-jerk aimed at the Dhimmi Italians and French is counterproductive and short-sighted…

Well, that was directed both at everyone here and the world in general.

Entering into discussion with Rodent is like pissing in the wind. No matter how careful you are, you end up feeling dirty, so I won’t try.

Why have a go at the Italians? At least they have a good dress sense and design great uniforms. OOn a more serious note the only known brave hostage action was the Italian who bared his throat and refused to be blind folded before the muslims decapitated him.