Harry's Place

Excellent and insightful article from Yeze as usual.

Speaking as a committed Jewish Nazi whose views are antithetical to those held by virtually all Jews (although I accept that some Nazis have been responsible in the past for some awful repression of Jews in the past), I resent the fact that I have to keep my deeply and sincerely held views repressed when I am around other Jews, especially Haredim. Where is the tolerance, the willingness to debate and the feeling of “just live and let live?” Also, I resent the fact that I rarely get invited round for Shabbos dinner on a Friday night…

B

this sophistry is precisely why j4j are perceived as a danger by religious jews. There is a major difference between uttering the name of Rambam and believing in the divinity of jesus. Also the article doesn’t explain whether j4j prosletise their belief. J4j simply wish to convert jews to christianity and they dress up their christianity as judaism for this purpose. Obviously I am not justifying any form of persecution but these people may be breaking the law on missionary activity in Israel.

My cousin became an evangelical Christian when he was at university in 1980. He was never culturally or religiously Jewish to any extent prior to 1980, nor were his immediate family.

Since he became Christian though, he makes a point of stressing his Jewishness, which does not extend beyond an accident of birth, whenever he sees the rest of the family.

At a recent funeral he made of point of standing behind a glass screen because he claims to have Cohen blood somewhere back when and could not be near a corpse. Otherwise he practices no tenets of Judaism, is a regular church attender at a small sect and is married and has two kids by a woman from that congregation.

Although I find him odd (and did long before he converted) he is not ostracized or threatened in any way and is made pretty welcome. But he is a Protestant Christian in every sense-I find myself wondering why he tries to (pretend to) be a Jew now when this was totally irrelevant to him until he changed faith? If he wants to be a Christian, be a Christian, who cares?

B

The US evangelical support for Israel must really rankle, eh Barad.

Harry’s Place, rallying place and most high profile publicity platform for Christians evangelizing Jews by pretending that it’s possible to be a Jew and a Christian, as if you could be a pork-eating vegetarian. Anything goes, if it’s a way to persuade religious Jews to stop being religious Jews, or enrol the non-religious ones for Jesus eh, guys?

I think I’m with J.R.- whilst J4J should do whatever they want and Israeli Jewish-Christians should have equal rights and whatnot, the comparison of inserting the Rambam’s name into the Kaddish and believing that Jesus is part of a tri-une God etc is massively ridiculous. And actually pretty bizarre.

A little competition is good for any belief system.

It is not competition. From an orthodox point of view it it is a spiritual pogrom. David T, it might be convenient for you if judaism were to merge with christianity, but if you don’t play the game, don’t make the rules.

Do you agree that Messianic Jews shouldn’t be judged as if we were all Pablo Christiani?

Required reading for anyone seriously trying to understand this issue is ‘The Politics of Conversion – Missionary Protestantism and the Jews in Prussia 1728-1941′ by Christopher Clark, Clarendon Press Oxford. (1995)
As the author points out, ‘Missionaries are people who operate on the border between their own community and another’.

j.r. defines the issue very well -’There is a major difference between uttering the name of Rambam and believing in the divinity of jesus’.
In Judaism a human being – Jesus or any other -cannot be divine.
And yes, there are laws in Israel against missionary activity which Israelis have a perfect right to expect to be upheld and enforced where necessary.

Yeze supports the abuse of elderly persons with dementia (see previous threads). That says it all, really.

Hitler couldn’t finish us, now is the turn of this Christian sect.

“by pretending that it’s possible to be a Jew and a Christian as if you could be a pork-eating vegetarian”

Can you be a pork-eating Jew?

“From an orthodox point of view it it is a spiritual pogrom.”

Oh, grow up.

What a disgusting equivalence to draw.

“David T, it might be convenient for you if judaism were to merge with christianity, but if you don’t play the game, don’t make the rules.”

I’m indifferent to the manner in which Jews and Christians define themselves. I don’t think that Christianity and Judaism are the same religion, however.

Judaism holds to the idea that God entered into a covenant with Jews through Moses, and through Noah, with all mankind.

Christianity appears to be founded on the notion that Jesus is both the Messiah and God, and has entered into a new covenant with mankind.

Both are incompatible, in my view. Both are equally absurd.

Fabian declines to comment on the attempted murder of Ami Ortiz, see previous threads. That says it all, really.

BTW the only laws against missionary activity in Israel are against offering a financial inducement to anyone to change their religion, and against proselytising minors without parental consent. Both of which laws are entirely right!

“Fabian declines to comment on the attempted murder of Ami Ortiz, see previous threads. That says it all, really.”

Actually no, Bob, you have lied about this for the second time. I commented on it twice, deploring the use of violence against anyone.

But what is not a lie, is that Yeze did not see anything wrong with the abuse of the elderly Holocaust survivor. He supported it as “the right of singing religious songs in the workplace”

Stop lying, Bob.

“The US evangelical support for Israel must really rankle, eh Barad.”

Yes, I think it has a downside. Some of the religious views of evangelical supporters of israel are quite strange-some, for example, think that they are hastening the apocalypse and End of Days by encouraging more Jews to Israel.

On balance I am not sure US church support is any more important or effective than the anti-Israeli stance of some US churches.

B

David T, the idea of a spiritual pogrom is an orthodox view, not my own. It’s not disgusting as it relates to the valuing of jewish tradition. There’s no need to be abusive.

Fab,
Looks like you repeatedly ignored a question about Ami, unless I missed something (in which case apologies)?

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/10/12/eli-yishai%E2%80%99s-ministry-of-love/

Yeze, do you prosletise your belief in jesus?

Why on earth shouldn’t he?

“by pretending that it’s possible to be a Jew and a Christian as if you could be a pork-eating vegetarian”
Can you be a pork-eating Jew?

Yes, the same way you can be a slandering Jew, a lying Jew, a thieving Jew, a Jewish murderer etc. These are sins which are against Jewish law, the same as eating pork. But accepting the divinity of Jesus puts you into the category of being a non-Jew. Judaism is a religion which does not allow the religious equivalent of dual nationality.

I see.

So you think that eating pork is similar to murdering, stealing or slandering?

I beg to differ.

david T, the question about prosletisation is pertinent to the taxonomy of the j4j cult. I didn’t say he shouldn’t do it, but if he does it he should be open about it in my opinion.

So you think that eating pork is similar to murdering, stealing or slandering?
I beg to differ.

You’re presumably pretending to be dense. I was listing a number of actions which are sins in Jewish law. Jewish law does not regard them as equivalent in terms of the sanctions they merit, as you’re well aware.

Your opinions are important to you and of interest to those who care about you. They’re hardly on the same level in their significance to others as Jewish law is to observant Jews.

“So you think that eating pork is similar to murdering, stealing or slandering?”

From an Orthodox point of view, it is a transgression, David. (I am not Orthodox BTW)

Bob, in the two previous thread to the one you link, in which Messianic’s views were discussed, I repeatedly stated that I condemn violence against them. I was wrongly accused on the third thread of saying nothing about the case of Ortiz, but as I had already condemned in general violence against Messianics, I chose not to answer. In this thread, I have already stated my opposition to violence against them twice, being this message the second instance.

But since Yeze has actually SUPPORTED the actions involving the abuse of the elderly Holocaust survivor with dementia, I have the right to bring this up whenever Yeze pops up to babble about “Yeshua”.

“…a non-Jew. Judaism is a religion which does not allow the religious equivalent of dual nationality.”

What if you are not religious?

Messianic solidarity with Israel in short:

“We are all Jews”
(now give me an Israeli passport so I can convert Jews to Jesus)

Thanks Fabian, I stand corrected, I’m sure Yeze can speak for himself on the other matter you mention.

As for “Messianic solidarity with Israel in short: “We are all Jews”
(now give me an Israeli passport so I can convert Jews to Jesus)”…

does this apply to the 150 or so Israeli Messianic Jews currently serving in the IDF?

But if this concerns you, why not take the opportunity to encourage Jews who have converted to Christianity to convert back to Judaism?

There is one posting in this thread.

Go on!

“…a non-Jew. Judaism is a religion which does not allow the religious equivalent of dual nationality.”
What if you are not religious?

My point was about the core requirements of Judaism as a religion. And your point is?

“My point was about the core requirements of Judaism as a religion. And your point is?”

Maybe they’re claiming to be Jews who are religious, which is different from “religious Jews” or “religiously Jewish”.

You have to decide if a person’s religious views are integral to their Jewish identity or not. If they are, then that excludes atheist Jews and Jews who get into Buddhism, or Transcendental Meditation.

“You have to decide if a person’s religious views are integral to their Jewish identity or not.”

Actually no, we don’t. Judaism is not an academic paper.

“Actually no, we don’t. Judaism is not an academic paper.”

Well, that seems to be precisely what you’re doing.

We are saying that Christians cannot be Jews at the same time. There is widespread agreement about this among us Jews. Now, can you tell me again why do you care about the subject?

Yes, Christianity is clearly a post-Jewish religion, that is materially different from Judaism in many – but not all – of its core theological positions.

The article says “Nahmonides considered Yemenite Jews to be authentic Jews even though they inserted Maimonides’ name into the Kiddush prayer ….” Well, of course he did. The addition (marked in bold) was “May His [G-d's] great name be exalted … in your lifetime and your days and the life of all of Israel and the life of our teacher Maimonides“. Maimonides was being prayed for, not to. I think it’s dishonest to imply otherwise.

It’s “kaddish”, a prayer that marks the end of segments of the prayer service, not “kiddush”, which is a service conducted at home before the main meals of the Sabbath and festivals. There are other obvious errors. Has the author any personal knowledge of Jewish practice?

“Now, can you tell me again why do you care about the subject?”

Because I’m trying to understand your logic.

Can Buddhists be Jews?

why not take the opportunity to encourage Jews who have converted to Christianity to convert back to Judaism?

Because prosletising is not permitted by halakhah.

“Because prosletising is not permitted by halakhah.”

Discussing theological issues a with another with whom you disagree and attempting to persuade them that your point of view is more correct is not “prosletising”, surely.

Yeze, could you please answer my question – do you prosletise belief in the divinity of jesus?

Religious disputes are the ancient version of a bunch of nerd arguing whether the Power Rangers could beat Spider man.

I feel embarrassed seeing a bunch of adults talking this way in the thread.

Brett, specifically seeking converts is not permitted. Discussing theological issues a with another … and attempting to persuade them is prosletising activity.

I think that J4j seek to demonstrate that they are jews and that their belief in jesus is just a minhag in order to get round the law against missionary activity in Israel. As prosletisation of judaism is strictly forbidden then the law against missionary activity actually promotes a level playing field which j4j, as evangelical christians, seek to subvert.

One point I find interesting is this:

The French rabbis considered the Rambam’s writings as heretical because of his use of Greek philosophy.

Now the Rambam is considered an authority in Judaism.

Ramban defended the Rambam’s writings against the herem.

At a time when European rabbinical authorities were denouncing Rambam, Ramban defended a Jewish community which held Rambam in high esteem.

Ramban argued against accepted wisdom, but showed great insight and vision. I disagree with Ramban’s position towards Jewish Christians, but I wonder how he would react to a contemporary Messianic Jewish movement.

Ramban showed a remarkably ecumenical attitude, arguing for the inclusion of Jews who had “wondered” in their thinking from Judaism, whilst arguing for the social exclusion of Jewish Christians. I think this is wrong, but I can understand it given the religious sectarianism of that day.

However we don’t live in a religiously segregated society, so we don’t need to pretend like we do.

Yeze, could you please answer my question – do you prosletise belief in the divinity of jesus?

Could you define ‘proselytise’ for me? Do you mean, if someone asks me what my religious beliefs are, I answer them, or do you mean knocking on doors, etc? I don’t knock on doors or anything like that, but I’ll say what I think just like everyone else does in a free society.

Speaking as a committed Jewish Nazi

So you’ll compare Messianic Jews to Nazis?

What about when people compare Jews/Zionists to Nazis?

You do realise that Jewish Christians were murdered alongside all other types of Jews, don’t you?

So why the offensive comparisons?

Yeze, I mean do you seek to persuade other jews of the divinity of jesus.

I’ll say what I think if asked, I certainly don’t think my belief in the divinity of Jesus is something to be ashamed of or to hide from others.

J.R., are you this inquisitive when talking to Lubavitch messianists?

Yeze, I mean do you seek to persuade other jews of the divinity of jesus.

I think the point is that you are a Protestant.

Protestantism is a schism from Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism is a syncretic religion, which includes elements of Judaism, but was adapted to operate as the state religion of the Roman Empire.

So, you’re a member of a religion which is a schism from a religion that borrowed some aspects of Jewish theology.

You might as well ask why Bahais aren’t considered Muslims, despite sharing some theological approaches with them. Or, similarly, why Sikhs are considered Hindus.

The answer is “because they believe different things”.

You are free to change your religious beliefs, of course. There are some Jews in this thread who could tell you why you ought to practice Judaism. However, inexplicably, they’re more concerned with shouting at you.

j.r. – as an atheist, I couldn’t really give a rat’s arse what the theological differences and rules are between different religious groups.

I’m only interested here in arriving at a logically consistent view of ethnicity or cultural identity.

It is obvious to me that someone who believes in Christ is a Christian. Someone born into a Christian family who subsequently decides the teachings of Mohammed are the way and the truth becomes a Muslim. It would be silly for them to claim to be a Christian. This isn’t rocket science.

The complication here is that unlike Christianity and Islam, “Jewish” can also be a racial. ethnic or cultural identity. One need not point out the obvious that Nazis were not concerned with theology. For them it was about race.

So my point is, I can quite imagine that a person grows up in a Jewish family, quite rightly considers themselves “Jewish”, but in adult life changes their *theological* views – either to atheism, or to Budhism, or Scientology, or, as the case may be, Christianity.

I can see that they would be reluctant to abandon their ethnic or cultural identification simply because their religious views have changed.

Well, I’m not a religious Jew if we’re taking Judaism as a set of theological ideas, and I accept that. It’s true Jewish Christians don’t fare well theologically against Maimonides’ 13 principles. But then why aren’t the Lubavitch put to the same test?

You’re right that I’m a Christian but I’m more concerned with the social exclusion of Messianic Jews rather than proving anything theological. I think Jews should be able to do and think what they like.

This is especially relevant now that there’s a Jewish state, with 15,000 of its citizens believing in Jesus. They can’t just leave the Jewish community, because their whole country is in a sense one big Jewish community. They will be working for Jews, alongside Jews, studying with Jews, buying and selling to Jews. As extremists push for the total exclusion of Messianic Jews from Israeli life, it’s natural that Messianic Jews will call for rights to be respected and greater representation.

Every time we do this, we’re not necessarily entering into a theological debate, although it seems inevitable that theological matters will arise in such a debate. It’s an extremely sensitive topic, and I fully appreciate the legacy of Christian persecution of Jews, and why some people see Messianic Jews as traitors. I don’t think this needs to carry on forever though.

But I don’t think a sensible discussion about theological matters is even possible when there’s so much shouting, so what I’d like is the tensions to be reduced and there to be greater respect, even if people disagree theologically.

Also what Brett said at 1:32pm applies to me in many ways.

But if this concerns you, why not take the opportunity to encourage Jews who have converted to Christianity to convert back to Judaism?

Jews (i.e. Jewish Jews) you miss the point. Be happy that we have a way to weed out the stupid genes from the tribe.

Be happy that we have a way to weed out the stupid genes from the tribe.

Nice. Really nice.

@Stuart. Thanks again :)

Anyone who is Catholic and regularly attends church has no doubt listened to many sermons centered on St Paul’s letters to the Ephesians. What we tend to forget is that those Ephesians he addressed were most likely Jews.

I’m sure the lecture by Robert Crotty will be most fascinating for those interested in this subject.

I’m only interested here in arriving at a logically consistent view of ethnicity or cultural identity.

These sort of classifications are about poorly defined opinions and patterns of looks and behavior vaguely recognized by people’s natural recognition neurology.. They’re not about anything that has an objective existence and there’s no reason to believe they can ever have meaningful, consistent definitions.

Be happy that we have a way to weed out the stupid genes from the tribe.

I agree that it is stupid to think that Jesus is a divinity, and that he has a covenant with mankind.

But then it is stupid to think that any person is a divinity

Or, for that matter, that God has a covenant with Jews.

But then why aren’t the Lubavitch put to the same test?

Apart from the belief of some of them that the Rebbe is the Messiah (not, “God”), their views are pretty mainstream hassidic Judaism.

You’re right that I’m a Christian but I’m more concerned with the social exclusion of Messianic Jews rather than proving anything theological. I think Jews should be able to do and think what they like.

I am more concerned about attacks, etc.

But I don’t think you can really complain if you turn up at a synagogue with a crucifix and the Gospels, and they direct you to one of the many functioning churches that operate within Israel.

Judaism is a religion which does not allow the religious equivalent of dual nationality.

Goldie Hawn describes herself as a Jewish Buddhist.

@JoeInAustralia – fair points. But still, do you not think the Yemenites were treating Maimonides’ name in a particularly lofty manner? It’s not the same as worshipping Jesus, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Then again, there are Jews who self-identify as religiously Jewish who believe that Schneerson is divine and is the Messiah. Do you consider them “as bad” as Jewish Christians?

J.R, there is no law against missionary activity in Israel, only against proselytising minors without parental consent or offering people financial inducements to change religion.

But I don’t think you can really complain if you turn up at a synagogue with a crucifix and the Gospels, and they direct you to one of the many functioning churches that operate within Israel.

No, of course not.

I don’t think I’d turn up anywhere with a crucifix though!

I wouldn’t attend a mosque with a crucifix either, but I’ve attended events in my local mosque when they were appropriate for people to attend (not to worship).

There will also be times such as weddings and funerals in which I’ll attend a synagogue and not think twice about whether I should be there.

Such a timid version of Judaism on display here. If you need to hide your creed behind the law (like the Iranians, Russians & Arabs do…) then you’re doomed anyway…

With the fall of the temple Judaism is based on personal study, subjective interpretation and solitary insight. Yet still it surprises & upsets so many when people really reach their own conclusions…

I am astounded by the timidity, I have to say.

“There will also be times such as weddings and funerals in which I’ll attend a synagogue and not think twice about whether I should be there.”

Quite so, and I hope you’d enjoy the services, as I enjoy those of other religions.

I do think that people ought to be a little less rude to Jews who have converted to Christianity.

“Or, for that matter, that God has a covenant with Jews.”

Thankfully I don’t have to believe in a single superstitious thing to be a Jew.

“Nice. Really nice.”

This is a disputation. And not in the Middle Ages where I would be executed for making such a remark. So stop being all Christiany and pseudonaive and tell me why it is not stupid to believe that a dead person is God. I for one am glad that there are idiots like you.

“Thankfully I don’t have to believe in a single superstitious thing to be a Jew.”

Your Jewishness, by your account, is indistinguishable from Atheism.

No shame in that, but I think that Judy would disagree with you.

there are Jews who self-identify as religiously Jewish who believe that Schneerson is divine and is the Messiah. Do you consider them “as bad” as Jewish Christians?

If they believe the late gentleman to be divine then they have clearly departed from normative judaism. But “bad”? I don’t think that j4j are bad, just disingenuous. Christians have always sought to make their religion attractive to members of other faiths; there’s nothing new there. Evangelical christians feel an obligation to convert others to their religion, and j4j is a carefully engineered vehicle for carrying out this obligation, especially amongst russian immigrants in Israel.

“Your Jewishness, by your account, is indistinguishable from Atheism.
No shame in that, but I think that Judy would disagree with you.”

If you conflate religion and theism maybe, but not if you conflate religion and tribalism.

You have to decide if a person’s religious views are integral to their Jewish identity or not. If they are, then that excludes atheist Jews and Jews who get into Buddhism, or Transcendental Meditation.

I don’t have to decide any such thing; I’m not impressed by narcissist approaches of this sort. Orthodox Judaism as defined by its laws and scholars makes the profession of Christianity or Islam or the acceptance of their founders as having divine or prophetic status incompatible with Judaism, same as pork-eating is incompatible with vegetarianism. As it happens every single Jewish religious grouping is in line with excluding believers in Jesus and Mohammed from recognition as adherents of Judaism and as members of the Jewish people (from which Jews can exclude themselves in the same way that Brits can renounce their British nationality by becoming stateless or adherents of other nationalities which don’t allow dual nationality).

For orthodox Jews, issues concerning those who deny the existence of the Almighty and those who follow Buddhist and Transcendental Meditation are more complex. They don’t involve acceptance of another religion or deity, so are not incompatible with being Jewish. A survey of British Jews who were members of the orthodox United Synagogue some time ago found that about 57% did not believe in God. According to Maimonides, actively advocating that the Almighty does not exist renders a Jew liable for the sanction of exclusion from Jewish community activities including dealings with other Jews. But he or she still remains a Jew. Espousal of the divine or prophetic status of Jesus or Mohammed or other religions’ equivalents means you are no longer a Jew, but an adherent of those religions.

This persecution of MJ is so pointless and counter-productive. They are usually loyal citizens, maligned and smeared by those with mediaeval minds, projecting a meaning and context that has long gone or is no longer relevant.

How pathetic is a Jew that can only define himself in opposition to MJ? Whose Judaism consists in “anti-MJsm or Jewish Christianity”?

Who needs “minds” like that?

Haven’t we got enough real enemies?

“I am astounded by the timidity, I have to say.”

Bunch of crybabies.

“According to Maimonides, actively advocating that the Almighty does not exist renders a Jew liable for the sanction of exclusion from Jewish community”

I bet that Maimonides was agnostic.

“As it happens every single Jewish religious grouping is in line with excluding believers in Jesus and Mohammed from recognition as adherents of Judaism”

And I don’t blame you. But what of those who disbelieve in god? Well, you say:

“According to Maimonides, actively advocating that the Almighty does not exist renders a Jew liable for the sanction of exclusion from Jewish community activities including dealings with other Jews. But he or she still remains a Jew.”

But he or she still remains a Jew? Why?

What is the difference between: “The Jewish religion is crap – I don’t believe in this god nonsense” and “The Jewish religion is crap – this one makes more sense to me”?

What if a Jew converts to Christianity for a while before realising it is also bollocks and then becomes an atheist. Does he get his “Jewishness” back?

Judy:

As it happens every single Jewish religious grouping is in line with excluding believers in Jesus and Mohammed from recognition as adherents of Judaism and as members of the Jewish people (from which Jews can exclude themselves in the same way that Brits renounce their British nationality by becoming stateless or adherents of other nationalities which don’t allow dual nationality

So what about the Talmud?

An Israel(ite) even though he has sinned is still an Israel(ite)” (Tractate Sanhedrin 44a

Or Rashi?
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1105rashi.html

Herewith do I, the undersigned, answer him who has questioned me concerning the marriage of a certain girl who was married at a time when she and the groom, as well as the witnesses to the ceremony, had already been forced by Gentiles to disavow the Jewish religion.

I am of the opinion that this woman requires a bill of divorcement before she can marry another man. The marriage of a Jew who has even voluntarily become an apostate and then marries is legal [according to Jewish law]. For it is said [Joshua 7: 11] “Israel has sinned,” meaning [Sanhedrin 44a] that even though he has sinned he is still an Israelite. How much the more is this true in the case a£ all these forced converts who at heart are still loyal to God. Now in this particular case how their final conduct reflects their original attitude, for as soon as they were able to find some form of escape they returned to Judaism. And even though the witnesses may have led a loose life while living among the non­Jews and may be suspected of the iniquities of the Gentiles, nevertheless their testimony to the marriage does not thereby become invalid….

Traditional Jewish texts view Messianic Jews as apostates, but still as Jews.

I bet that Maimonides was agnostic.

You appear not to have read Maimonides’ writings. I recommend you start with Moreh Nevukhim which is usually translated as “The guide to the perplexed”. However, a more literal translation is “Teacher of Nebbishes”–which seems to be well fitted to some of the people on this post asking such nebbish questions as “Can you be a Jewish pork eater?” or making such nebbish comments as “I bet that Maimonides was agnostic”.

“I bet that Maimonides was agnostic.”

Hmm. Well, he certainly knew what he was up against: i.e. Greek philosophy, which hangs together a little bit more coherently than Jewish theology. At least he tried to reconcile the two, to some extent.

“But he or she still remains a Jew? Why?”

Because his mom was Jewish.

I think it should be pointed out that not all Christian denominations view Jesus as a divinity. That’s the mainstream opinion, but it isn’t universal.

What is universal, on the other hand, is the myth centered on a child sired by a divinity and born to a virgin.

It exists in ancient chinese folklore, various african religions, greek/roman/pagan mythology and even in some meso-amercian folktales.

“Greek philosophy, which hangs together a little bit more coherently than Jewish theology”

As someone who has studied a little bit of Greek philosophy, I’d say it is pretty much bullshit. And you have to learn a dead language to know it to its full degree.

Maimonides, like Thomas Aquinas in the following century, argued his theology through Aristotlean philosophy. Maimonides was a contemporary of Averroes, who combined Islamic theology with Aristotlean philosophy.

Averroes’ school of thought became hugely popular amongst Jews in the Golden Age, who began to apply Averroism to Judaism. Aquinas was also popular among scholarly Jews in the Middle Ages – not for what he wrote but how he wrote it.

“As someone who has studied a little bit of Greek philosophy, I’d say it is pretty much bullshit. “

Can you give us an example of this “bullshit”?

But I understand that up until 800 years ago, it was considered all the rage.

But I understand that up until 800 years ago, it was considered all the rage.

It was the best science of its time.

There are relatively few people who cling to the more eccentric claims of ancient Greek philosophy. Those who do are usually Catholic theologians.

“Maimonides, like Thomas Aquinas in the following century, argued his theology through Aristotlean philosophy. Maimonides was a contemporary of Averroes, who combined Islamic theology with Aristotlean philosophy.

Averroes’ school of thought became hugely popular amongst Jews in the Golden Age, who began to apply Averroism to Judaism. Aquinas was also popular among scholarly Jews in the Middle Ages – not for what he wrote but how he wrote it.”

Yes, because most of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is just nonsensical rambling, which needs a little bit of intellectual structure to make sense.

That’s why Jews, Christians and Muslims leapt at the opportunity to Hellenise their thinking.

“Because his mom was Jewish.”

Yeah, but so is the chap who converted to Christianity. And the chap who converted to Christianity and realised he’d made a terrible mistake.

“Yeah, but so is the chap who converted to Christianity.”

So? I’m not disputing this. Jews for Jesus are Jewish morons.

What I don’t understand is why Judy, Shmuel and Fabian don’t try to persuade Yeze to rejoin Judaism.

OK, Shmuel and Fabian don’t actually believe in the core tenets of traditional Judaism

But Judy – surely you could give it a go:

“Jews should not worship Jesus because…”

?

There’s always been intellectual exchanges between Jews and Greeks and others.

This book’s an interesting comparison between Hebrew and Greek thinking: Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek

Interesting review here:

“Boman perhaps shakes us in his introduction by declaring that Platonism and the Hebrew view of life are related essentially and support joint values.”

“So? I’m not disputing this. Jews for Jesus are Jewish morons.”

Oh, we agree.

“Jews should not worship Jesus because…”

…he is not the Messiah, he is a very naughty boy.

B

“What I don’t understand is why Judy, Shmuel and Fabian don’t try to persuade Yeze to rejoin Judaism.”

For the same reason I don’t try and persuade Yeze to like The Cure. I’m not 13 years old.

Don’t worry Shmuel, I really like The Cure already.

But given that there are SOME people who do like to have religious beliefs, you can hardly be surprised that SOME people will be persuaded to join a particular religion, if their own appears unsatisfactory.

And if you can’t say why it is that Jews ought to worship one God, rather than the Trinity, then it doesn’t do to complain.

Clearly, there is a good reason to become Jewish. Were that not so, then the three prominent anti-Missionary activists – Klugger, “Rubenstein” and Sanders – were born into Christian non-Jewish families.

For some reason, nobody here can advance that argument.

“For some reason, nobody here can advance that argument.”

Because its a matter of taste. Why become American vs. English? There is no logical reason for choosing one over the other. But believing that a dead person is a god, now thats just stupid.

Brett (in regard to Greek Philosophy):
> “Can you give us an example of this “bullshit”?

Oh, virtually all of Aristotle’s natural philosophy, which kept empirical science in the dark ages (literally and figuratively). Not to mention Plato’s fantasising about crypto-fascist states, his ludicrous tripartite soul and so forth.

None of this means that Jewish philosophy is any more or less bonkers. Nor does it mean that Judy is the arbiter of whom we may call Jews.

MJs are idiotic, sometimes mendacious and always deluded. But this doesn’t mean that they should be persecuted. As for whether Israeli Jews or others should feel *threatened* by them. I guess this depends on how confident those would-be “victims” of MJ might be in their faith. If it can be shattered by the admixture of Christ and Chicken Soup, then it was probably too brittle in the first place to worry about.

MJs are idiotic, sometimes mendacious and always deluded.

Can’t you find deluded, mendacious idiots in any cross-section of society?

And as any rabbi would tell you, there are plenty reasons NOT to become Jewish.

Can’t you find deluded, mendacious idiots in any cross-section of society?

Yes and I don’t believe that religious faith is an indicator of those traits.

> Can’t you find deluded, mendacious idiots in any cross-section of society?

Of course you can. But it takes an almost heroic amount of delusion to keep the mutually exclusive emulsified in the brain.

Again, it is your right to be deluded, so long as you don’t start blowing people up in the name of your delusion. And please, feel free to try and convince me of your delusion as intensely but peacefully as you wish. I am quite certain that the most you’ll get is a patronising smirk. Those who feel the need to respond otherwise have their own internal conflicts to sort out.

“For some reason, nobody here can advance that argument.”

I think the taboo against proselytising is very strong in Jews of all shades. Also even if someone was so minded, this is probably not the best forum or medium to do so (even with someone who claims to want to be sort of Jewish but cannot understand why most Jews would not accept him as such, namely the Jesus thing)

Personally I would not try to convince anyone to be Jewish, although I have met quite a few happy converts. The position of Jews in the world is not necessarily great and is not likely to get better soon-why seek to join a much despised and reviled group? Unless you happen to believe Jews are all powerful controllers of banks and newspapers, each one endowed with a super-sized scientific/legal/medical/financial brain, in which case join, accept the tenets wholeheartedly without haggling and join the tribe…

B

“Those who feel the need to respond otherwise have their own internal conflicts to sort out.”

Lets clarify for those who are new to these threads, that the whole argument with the Christians who call themselves “Messianic Jews” is that they want the Israeli State to recognize them as Jews for purposes of benefiting from the Israeli Law of Return, which was enacted specifically to give Jews a refuge in their own state. Do we need to add that it was a refuge from Christians?

“I think the taboo against proselytising is very strong in Jews of all shades.”

Sure, but Yese is, in fact, a Jew.

Fabian from Israel:

> Do we need to add that it was a refuge from Christians?

It wasn’t. It was a refuge from violent antisemitism. That some, or even many, of those antisemites were inspired by Christianity still doesn’t allow you to get away with that statement. Most Nazis were not, in any meaningful sense, Christians (even though many Christians wholeheartedly supported the Nazis). There were also a minority of Christians who helped Jews escape the Nazis, and were themselves killed in the Death Camps for their troubles.

Yes, Messianic Judaism is usually a cynical recruitment drive. Those convinced by them, frankly, deserve to be convinced by them. As for whether they should be considered “Jews” with regard to the Law of Return – well, here we get into the knotty “What’s A Jew” territory which, I believe, has not been categorically answered for around 5,000 years.

JP, antisemitism was a product of Christianity. Jews needed a refuge from majority-Christian countries. That is a fact.
That doesnt’ condemn each and every Christian, but certainly, Christian countries didn’t feel safe for Jews, who had to appeal to Christian policemen, Christian firemen, Christian bureocrats, Christian judges, etc.

“Sure, but Yese is, in fact, a Jew.”

But in fact, a Jew who chooses to act like a Protestant.

“But in fact, a Jew who chooses to act like a Protestant.”

In his religious beliefs, sure. But there’s more to a man than religion.

“Jews needed a refuge from majority-Christian countries. That is a fact.”

I think it unlikely that MJs will convert all Jews in Israel to Christianity, so your concerns are limited.

Gilad Atzmon is not a Christian.

“In his religious beliefs, sure. But there’s more to a man than religion.”

There’s more to religion than beliefs.

“I think it unlikely that MJs will convert all Jews in Israel to Christianity, so your concerns are limited.”

Well, he can try online.

I mean them.

> JP, antisemitism was a product of Christianity

Tell that to all the Greek antisemites who predated Christianity by hundreds of years. Channukah ain’t a festival celebrating liberation from Christian oppression, you know.

Chanuka wasn’t about antisemitism either. That is a modern and very disputed interpretation.

The idea that Jews are the essential other and the root of the cosmic evil is a Christian idea, implicit on the accusation of deicide. Greeks had simply cultural disagreements with the Jews.

antisemitism was a product of Christianity. Jews needed a refuge from majority-Christian countries. That is a fact.
That doesnt’ condemn each and every Christian, but certainly, Christian countries didn’t feel safe for Jews, who had to appeal to Christian policemen, Christian firemen, Christian bureocrats, Christian judges, etc.

Well, there’s no country more Christian at the moment than the U.S., and yet it is in the U.S. that Jews have accomplished their greatest feats. It is also in that same U.S. that assimilation rates ( ie intermarriage with Christians) for Jews are the highest.

I’ve met many, many American Jews who were profoundly patriotic.

Fabian, the notion that virulent antisemitism started with Christianity is somewhat misguided, to say the least. And to believe that the Greeks merely had “cultural disagreements” with the Jews is another understatement.

That is true. However, no religion is static. Many Christians have made significant strides towards combating antisemitism both within Christianity and in the world in general. That deserves recognition.

“That deserves recognition.”

Of course. But not automatic Israeli citizenship.

“the notion that virulent antisemitism started with Christianity is somewhat misguided”

How is that misguided?

‘Well, I’m not a religious Jew if we’re taking Judaism as a set of theological ideas, and I accept that.’
Yeze: one could not possibly be a religious Jew (one who upholds all the 613 mitzvot) and believe that Jesus was the messiah at the same time. After the coming of the messiah the mitzvot will be defunct except for the mitzvot Adam LiHavero.

Why should anyone here try to persuade Yeze to change his beliefs? It would show a marked lack of respect for him to try to do so. I’d just like to see some reciprocal respect in the opposite direction.

JP:

So, with whom did virulent Jew hatred originate?

Some argue that Christian anti-Semitism was the brain child of St. Paul, a Hellenized Jew from Turkey, who was down on the dietary restrictions and male circumcision. http://www.barriewilson.com/hjbc.html

“Why should anyone here try to persuade Yeze to change his beliefs? ”

Why not?

The reason that I write a blog is to try to persuade people to change their beliefs. I sometimes succeed.

It isn’t disrespectful to try to persuade somebody of something you believe to be true – it is disrespectful not to do so.

Now, I appreciate that Jews do not actively try to recruit any more – although of course, Jews used to do so. Nevertheless, why would you not try to persuade somebody who IS Jewish that they ought to practice that religion?

Blimey – am I going to have to go out and find a Lubavicher to argue this point?

Why don’t you try, David? You are a Jew too, and an excellently educated one, so you probably have good reasons for remaining one.
Come on, convince some Christians here.

I’m an agnostic Jewish pork eater. Got an (intellectual, theological, whatever) problem with that?

RE: I think the taboo against proselytising is very strong in Jews of all shades.

Someone should tell the Lubes.

David T – you don’t seem to understand the prohibition on seeking converts to judaism. Regardless of whether Yeze is jewish or not, arguments written here advocating judaism would be read by non-jews and this is not permitted.

However what one can see is that judaism teaches that people (jewish or not) shouldn’t pray to or make an idol of deceased humans.

Shmuel, antisemitism – violent, murderous antisemitism, including pogroms and such – predates Christianity by hundreds of years. As with everything else in Christianity, its antisemitism is no more than clumsy plagiarism.

‘It isn’t disrespectful to try to persuade somebody of something you believe to be true – it is disrespectful not to do so.’

Ah, now here’s the crux of the matter -in the word ‘true’. I don’t use the word ‘true’ in relation to faith; I think that the very fact that religion is an unprovable belief system precludes that. I also do not presume that the belief system which is appropriate for me is necessarily suitable for someone else.
I therefore have no reason to persuade anyone to adopt my views on religion because, unlike some, I do not claim to know ‘the truth’.

But as I’m sure you are well aware, David, this is actually not about religion at all; it’s politics.

I’m an agnostic Jewish pork eater. Got an (intellectual, theological, whatever) problem with that?

Nope.

RE: I think the taboo against proselytising is very strong in Jews of all shades.
Someone should tell the Lubes.

Lubavitch does not proselytise — it means trying to convert people to another religion. They do outreach work (shlichus/shlichut, as they call it in Yiddish/Hebrew) which is work around helping Jewish people discover/rediscover and love their heritage. They do not work with ex Jews who have become Christians (such as so-called Messianic Jews who are in fact not Jews, but Christians) or Muslims unless such people approach them with the sincere desire to become Jews again — for which the starting point has to be renouncing belief in/adherence to the founder/prophet of those religions.

Just a question, for those who believe that Jews who come to believe in Jesus are no longer Jews. Suppose a Jewess comes to believe in Messianism. She is then not a Jewess but a Christian of Jewish descent. She has a son who rejects his mother’s views, and identifies far more strongly with the traditions of his grandparents. Now, would that boy be accepted as a Jew or not? What difference would it make that he has four Jewish grandparents but no Jewish mother? Would he be allowed to make aliyah?

Judy: In theory, what you say about the Lubes is correct. In practice, however, their efforts to “bring back” jews like me to religous judaism aren’t any different than being approached by mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses, because the jews they are trying to bring back are ethnically jewish but religiously probably never were religious in the first place (like me for instance); furthermore, in many ways it’s worse, because at least with the mormons and the JHs, they are trying to educate me about something i don’t know about (theoretically); whereas the Lubes are trying to get me back to something consciously rejected.

In practice, all missionaries, whether lubes trying to “bring Jews back” to judaism or others trying to “convert” Jews or anybody else to their own belief system, are all very very annoying. But they have the right to do it, and I have the right to ignore them. Which is what should happen with MJs too.

Also, on a slightly different tack, i don’t know why people put yeshua in closed quotations, as in “yeshua,” that was, after all, Jesus’ real name.

their efforts to “bring back” jews like me to religous judaism aren’t any different than being approached by mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses, because the jews they are trying to bring back are ethnically jewish but religiously probably never were religious in the first place (like me for instance); furthermore, in many ways it’s worse, because at least with the mormons and the JHs, they are trying to educate me about something i don’t know about (theoretically); whereas the Lubes are trying to get me back to something consciously rejected.

I can’t comment on your experience, but my knowledge of Lubavitch is that they don’t to round cold calling people and knocking on doors like Christian missionaries do. I have heard of them inviting men to put on tefillin or to make the blessing over the lulav, but that as far as I know is usually where the men concerned are in direct contact with them, perhaps coming up to a booth or a mobile centre (mitzvah tank) they’ve set up, not sought out by knocking on doors and the like. The main public outreach events they organize are the Chanukah celebrations–no-one’s obliged to go to or get involved in one. And if you do go to one, you’re most likely to find yourself given a doughnut, not have literature thrust on you.

In terms of Lubavitch outreach philosophy, they follow the traditional orthodox line of assuming that a Jew who remains a Jew (ie not converted to another religion such as Islam or Christianity) has the potential to either embrace it for the first time or return to it even if it was formerly consciously rejected. They have had many former ardent Communists or brought-up-atheists find their approach one they want to take up. For example, the daughter of a Jewish refugee from Vienna, always a secularist, who married a gentile atomic scientist and lived in Cambridge went to Israel and found Lubavitch offered her something she felt she wanted; the great grandson of Trotsky (according to Robert Service); the son of a couple of highly rationalist Masorti supporters, convinced that they’d adopted an ideal non-fundamentalist Judaism for modernity. Etc., etc….

I have never heard of anyone being made to listen to Lubavitch against their will. So if you’ve consciously rejected Judaism, you will only find yourself listening to them if you choose to do so. Why would you want to do that?

I am personally against all attempts to go looking to convert people from other religions. If people want to go and enquire into those religions of their own accord, that’s their business in my view.

“Also, on a slightly different tack, i don’t know why people put yeshua in closed quotations, as in “yeshua,” that was, after all, Jesus’ real name.”

Considering there is absolutely no evidence of an historical Jesus (quite the contrary), arguing what he might “properly” be called is like bickering over Thor’s surname.

“It isn’t disrespectful to try to persuade somebody of something you believe to be true – it is disrespectful not to do so.”

How is it disrespectful to chose to not convince a lover of vanilla ice cream that they should prefer chocolate instead? Or convince an Englishman that America is a superior nation? Or that Liverpool is a better club than Chelsea. David T you are assuming that such matters *could* be adjudicated with rational argument and that they *should* be.

“How is it disrespectful to chose to not convince a lover of vanilla ice cream that they should prefer chocolate instead? Or convince an Englishman that America is a superior nation? Or that Liverpool is a better club than Chelsea. David T you are assuming that such matters *could* be adjudicated with rational argument and that they *should* be.”

You are arguing about aesthetics, not ethics. So bzzzt.

RE: Considering there is absolutely no evidence of an historical Jesus (quite the contrary), arguing what he might “properly” be called is like bickering over Thor’s surname.

This comment made me tho thor i could barely pith. Irrespective of whether there was a historical jesus or not, his proper name, as a galilean jew, would be yeshua or Joshua or whatever. Fictional characters have proper names too, y’know.

Judy: In Montreal the Lubes used to hang out outside the YMHA waiting for Jews to pour out and verbally go after them on Westbury street. I don’t know if they do it anymore, but it wasn’t so great. On the other hand, it’s hard to take folks who put up “WE WANT MOSCHIACH NOW!” signs up too seriously.

“You are arguing about aesthetics, not ethics. So bzzzt.”

America’s superiority over England is certainly not aesthetic. Maybe dentally.

David T:

As far as I understand, until Judea was conquered by the Greek Empire, Judaism was a procelytizing faith. I think it was Alexander the Great who prohibited such activities by Jews.

My first recollection of Lubavitcher activities in Toronto was a probably in the mid-1990s, and they weren’t seeking non-Jews as prospects, but rather trying to promote Lubavitcher-style observance among the non-Lubavitcher members of the tribe. Much more recently, I have heard about men who aren’t Jewish being invited to tie on t’fillin, which I found rather surprising, although I don’t know if there is any prohibition against a non-Jewish male doing so.

Why should anyone here try to persuade Yeze to change his beliefs? It would show a marked lack of respect for him to try to do so. I’d just like to see some reciprocal respect in the opposite direction.

You have tried to change my beliefs, repeatedly, about the rights of Messianic Jews to make aliyah to Israel. I am not the least bit offended by your attempts to persuade me.

“I think the taboo against proselytising is very strong in Jews of all shades.”

Sure, but Yese is, in fact, a Jew.”

It seems to me analogous to those Jews as an accident of birth-much discussed on HP-who only identify as Jews in the context of I-P, their views entirely a reflection of their core belief in left wing politics. In this case, Yese on the basis of a Jewish mother (?) is speaking “asajew” but with his position wholly informed by his Protestant Christian religion.

He does not seem to understand why most other Jews do not welcome him with open arms.

B

Yeze, I’ve been around a long time. I know you don’t really care about Nachmanides and the mediaeval Yemenite seder tefilah. You didn’t argue yourself into a belief in Jesus, and I don’t suppose that you could be argued out of it – presuming that anyone cared to. Likewise, you don’t really care about being accepted by Jews except insofar as it gives you credibility and entrée into their circles, the better to convert them. You will accomplish neither of those things here, so please save us the “isn’t it interesting?” arguments. They irritate genuine Jews and, I suspect, embarrass many genuine Christians.

I think that everyone has missed the historical context. We have a long and bloody history of losing Jews to forced conversions by the powers of local rulers over the centuries. We are very sensitive to this and so it rankles, however insidiously it is carried out.

Jewish identity over the last 300 years, in Europe has been complicated due the dispersion of a tribe with an ancient and particular set of beliefs and practices and the response of members of that tribe to the pressures of modernity.

Now that we are reconstituted as a cultural majority in the State of Israel and given the fact that our basic belief is to argue with each other and God (whether he or she exists is immaterial), then it is no wonder that we do not fit into all sorts of binary yes/no definitions.

The boundaries of being a Jew today are very fluid, but I think that accepting Christianity puts you over them mainly for painful historical reasons.

A more interesting question is why this is so and why formally the “asaJews” oft mentioned on this site supporting my political/cultural/physical enemies are not automatically assigned the same ex Jewish status?

Yeze, I’ve been around a long time. I know you don’t really care about Nachmanides and the mediaeval Yemenite seder tefilah. You didn’t argue yourself into a belief in Jesus, and I don’t suppose that you could be argued out of it – presuming that anyone cared to.

JoeInAustralia, I know you really don’t care about me, so why are you commenting about my beliefs and actions, according to your own logic?

It seems to me analogous to those Jews as an accident of birth-much discussed on HP-who only identify as Jews in the context of I-P, their views entirely a reflection of their core belief in left wing politics. In this case, Yese on the basis of a Jewish mother (?) is speaking “asajew” but with his position wholly informed by his Protestant Christian religion.

some points:

1. I don’t think my Jewish ’status’ gives my arguments more or less gravitas.
2. No-one denies the Jewish identity of anti-Zionist Jews.
3. I haven’t used the words “as a Jew.”
4. I’m not treating my Jewishness as an “accident of birth”. If I were, then I wouldn’t identify as Jewish.

JoeInAustralia, I know you really don’t care about me …

Oh, I do care about you. Each person, as my rabbis tell me, is a complete world. I just don’t care for a person who squanders his intellectual gifts on false sophistry.

Isn’t there a bit of sophistry at work in your definitions of ‘care for’ and ‘care about’?